Hi All

I believe the religious idea of Karma and Reincarnation are illogical and nonsensical and l list my objections this belief below.

1) Karma is a belief that a person has to live many lives and improve in each until they finally become an ascended master and finally lose self-awareness into the mindless soup of the cosmic mind.

2) Alternatively, one chooses ones own next life from the spiritual plane in order to learn something in the next. What the heck did Hitler come to learn?

3) It is claimed by some variants of this illogical belief that one might have to live sometimes millions of lives before becoming perfect to escape the cycle of birth and rebirth and find enlightenment.

4) I insist that we only live once and it is during this life where we learn our lessons or repeat the mistakes until we have overcome them or die it we don't.

5) Karma says that a soul must live many mortal lives to reach perfection. Thus humanity must undergo countless incarnation from an insect or bad human until one finally becomes an enlightened master.

6) One thus, must start out as a lowly life form such as a cockroach or garden Lilly and finally, after countless millions of years progress to become human.

7) For the life of me how does a bad cockroach or garden Lilly become a "good cockroach or garden Lilly"?

8) This belief if it where not so tragic would be very funny indeed.

9) Karma says that if we have a weakness or fault in this life, we must return be reborn, again and again in order overcome our failings in the previous in the next life, or horrors upon horrors if we are very bad, maybe even revert to been a cockroach again. Thus Hitler is most likely now existing as a baffled little cockroach, because he was very bad indeed!

10) Therefore, any suffering we have to endure in this life, be it cancer, aids, all other sicknesses poverty, etc, etc is our own fault due to the evil or bad things we did in our past life. This is a cruel belief as many saintly people suffer and die in the most horrific manner. What soul would choose to be a Jew in the Second World War and see their beloved's torn from them in the holocaust and consumed in the ovens of Hitler's death camps?

10a) The above is one of the excuses fundamentalist Reincarnation and karma believers, will ignore and step over a sick poverty strickened dying person. Thank God for the 10b) Sadly the Mother Teresa's of this world who are so few and far between. After all these sick people in the gutters of filth have only themselves to blame because of their supposed depraved previous lives.

11) The above paragraphs show that Karma is nonsensical. Again I stress why for the life of me can a person be punished over and over again sometimes terribly, for some wrong doing in a previous life of which they have absolutely no memory of?  In my own case I have suffered terribly in this life with various illnesses and physical assaults. If reincarnation and karma are true, then I stand back baffled as to why, surly I deserve an explanation?.

12.) Another view favored by spiritualists and modern day channellers is that between lives we sit in some other dimensions and decide exactly what kind of life we choose be born into be it beggar, thief, rich person or what ever. Therefore, our fate is decided by ourselves, what nonsense.

13) What then about souls like Hitler, Stalin, Nero,Ted Bundy, Jeffrey Darhma and all the other hideously evil and numerous depraved people living on earth  at this very moment? Did they look down from some inter-life zone and deliberately choose a life of depravity and evil and what they could learn by their terrible acts of cruelty? Do they degenerate further and further through each life as they are totally depraved without any redeeming good qualities what so ever, finally becoming a one cell virus?. Surely, this type of person deserves judgment and eternal punishment, not escape into karma?

14) If we look at the statistics of the out of control world population growth, we see a huge increase in the total world population, which is already a frightening 7 billion and growing faster and faster by the day. Where are all these people coming from? If karma were true, surely people should be reaching perfection and escaping the cycle of life and the worlds population decreasing. Not so?


15). Again, if karma where true we should be observing just the reverse. With more and more people becoming better and better and finally everyone reaching enlightenment and escaping the relentless birth and rebirth emptying the world of humanity, which might be a good thing at that.

16) Although people are no more evil now than they were in the past (middle age horrors as an example), they are also no better, if we read our daily newspaper or listen to the news on the electronic media.

17) We just have to read up on the mechanized world wars of the past century and see the awful weapons humanity has developed and continue to develop to kill one another, with more and more sophisticated tools of death. Where is Karma in all of this? How does the atomic bomb fit into all of this

18). Where are all these enlightened masters? There seems to me so few in these latter days. Please could you name just one living exalted, enlightened, master for me?

19) In my opinion a person I would call an enlightened master in present times was the late "Mother Teresa" and she did definitely not believe in the law of Karma but believed and practiced active altruistic love caring and charity nearly all the years of her long life. To those deprived people on the sidewalks of life, that the Karma believers step over in disgust

20) If the law of karma were true, why are we still having more and more conflicts and wars all over the planet, instead of peace?

21)What about the claims of some people that they have memories from past lives? These are implanted false memories placed there by the hypnotist. They could also be leaks into our brains as encoded within the colossal D.N.A. molecule where I believe racial memories could be stored. Perhaps these ghosts of memories could perhaps leak into the conscious mind of some people who then believe they are remembering past lives.

22) Another fact that, has been proven, is forgotten childhood memories that are remembered in the case of trauma or under hypnoses.

23) My personal search for the truth about reincarnation is that there has never been even one proved indisputable past life memory in anyone. All could/were explained rationally.

24.) My own personal view on Karma and past life regression is that I hope this awful concept is not true. Who wants to live earthly mortal repeatedly?

25) Anyway, 99.999999999+++ of people just like me have absolutely zero, absolutely no memories, of any past life, and I believe those that say have memories are either deluded, illusional or lying.

26) In addition, if I lived in the past and have no recollection of that life, the person I was then is truly dead. And if I incarnate into another person, and have no memory of my present existence, then when I die I cease to exist and someone else takes my place.

27) I believe I exist now because years ago my beloved parents decided (Not me) to make love. I am sure I did not choose this life and am positive it is the only life I have ever had. What comes after, if anything remains an enigma to me and to everyone else on earth?

28.) I therefore reject the concept of karma as a potentially cruel false belief and nonsense to any logically rationally thinking person.

Alan McDougall

©Copyright Alan Grant McDougall 2007

Hi Alan,

I think of Karma a bit differently than you do.  Karma to me is simply Newton's law of motion; "for every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction," applied on the spiritual side.  It is not fatalism.  It is not a logical thinking sentence imposed by outside forces. 

So, yes, when you hear "what comes around goes around," or people getting their "just deserts" usually implies that this law is in motion.  Karma is part of the law of Attraction.  It is a beautiful system in some ways, perfectly suited to spiritual evolution, if we are open to examining our motivations and our lives.  We bring into our life our deepest thoughts that our bound to our beliefs (convictions).  When we harm another, or harbor ill will, we allow those thoughts to take root deep in our consciousness.  And the seed that takes root is generally a bad karmic outcome. 

For me, the purpose of karma is to make us all aware of love, and the nature of the process itself.  Choose your thoughts, and be mindful of your actions.  Live by the golden rule, and peace and harmony must follow, as night follows day. 

A man/woman is only bound by karma when he or she lives mindlessly and selfishly.  Once you are aware of the process and the learning mechanism, I believe you can free yourself of the "karmic wheel." 

Matthew

Going along with what Matthew stated, balancing karma means learning what you have not learned in life experiences of the past that still affect your life in a negative way now.  It does not mean punishment for misdeeds.  Negative karma, at its root, is the result of fearful intent.  Learning to dispel our fears is the way to heal any karmic patterns we've developed.  As we live our lives we will continually create situations in which we are confronted with our past karma, which usually causes us a great deal of pain due to our fears and beliefs.  Each time we face a karmic situation we have the opportunity to clear any fears or misconceptions thereby changing or even freeing ourselves from any karmic pattern.

Karma has to do with cause and effect.  It is simply life circumstances or events coming to us as a result of our past choices.  How these events affect us is completely based on how we experience them through our belief systems.

Kathy

Hi Matthew,

Of course just because I dislike a concept and do not believe it to be true, will not alter the real truth of the matter, whatever it is. We will have to die maybe to find out?

----------------------------------------------

Below is my response for what it is worth Matthew

To grow or learn anything we must know exactly what we did right and what we did wrong.

To lose your self identity over and over again and being/been punished and expected to learn lessons from a previous existence of which you have absolutely zero memory of, makes no sense whatsoever to me.

It is just another way of dying repeatedly, each time having no recollection of who you were before and expected to learn from the mistakes of another person, who you were in reality in your previous life.

I know who I am in this mortal life and will work off any karma negativity in this life, simply because I am aware of what I did wrong during my present existence. At present my identity is Alan and I know that persons life history, good and bad factors and attributes, simply because I have occupied this body all my life. Thus I can correct my mistakes during this lifetime. I do believe in a form of karma, but think we work it off in our present existence. If we don't we repeat the mistake repeatedly until we have learned our lesson, or we die.

I have this concept of Karma during our present lives I designate it under the C1C2C3 as indicated below.

You are living a bad life Karma comes into play with the first test lesson below in phase C1.

C1 = Your must change your life for the better! Or the second C2 comes into play.

C2= You repeat the lessons or mistakes repeatedly and cycle back and forwards between C2 and C1 until you pass all the trails and lessons of this life.

If you get stuck on one lesson during phase C2 such as an addition to some dangerous drug and totally fail this test of life, you will move into the final phase of C3.

C3 = The casket you die.

Recap

C1 = Change learn for the good/better

C2 = Repeat lessons pass, go back to C1 and pass next lesson and cycle between C1 AND C2.

C2 fail lesson test completely go to C3.

C3 =You die casket.

Reincarnation and karma, to me in like maybe obtaining a university degree in the now and here. But in the next life that degree will mean absolutely nothing because I can not remember what I was taught. So when I get reborn as a baby in a new body and new life with zero memories I must relearn everything I have forgotten in my past life.

Alan

Hi Alan,

I guess you and I will have to disagree.  My concept of karma is completely different than yours.  So much so, that it is like we are talking about different topics.  I don't see karma as some enforced "life lesson." There is no such thing as getting it right.  It is an equal and opposite reaction to a thought/intenton/action we take, either in a loving way, or in an unloving way.   Karma is a reflex, unthinking, just like gravity. 

But you are welcome to interpret it any way you wish.

Best,

Matthew

Then Matthew,

What is the purpose of Karma, if like you say it is an impersonal force like gravity, then why even mention it? "What ever will be will be" (Like the Song).

Thus, we have no control over our destiny, just think right and do the best you can and both your legacy and destiny is automatically worked out by said force. Don't you think that God might have an interest in us after all we are part of his creation?

Best regards

Alan

Perhaps to some degree it is a matter of responsibility rather than punishment. If we mess something up we feel responsible for cleaning it.

Alan, Karma has no purpose.  It simply "is."  I think part of the confusion here is the notion that karma is linked to mindless reincarnation.  Or that it occurs as some sort of divine punishment.  From my perspective, this is not true.

Karma is just a spiritual law.  What you put out there comes back at you.  What you deeply believe, thoughts that are bound to conviction, are then tied to manifestations of future events in your life.  There is no punishment here.  It is something we can all see in our own lives with introspection and honesty.  Once appreciated, we can use the laws of Karma to grow in love and spirituality.   Free from egoistic thinking, and fear (as Kathy mentions), we can get off the Karma train entirely. 

Reincarnation, to me is another matter.  It is not at all clear how often it occurs, and what choice is involved.  In general, free will seems to be the rule here, in the earth plane.  I see no reason this would be different without a body.  I believe that those who choose to come back would be tied to the material world, and the ego in some way.  They feel a separation from everything else.  But I'd like to think that if the decision does occur to reincarnate, it is a willing choice.


Matthew

As far as I've learned, if you look at the understanding of Karma through the religions and history, there is not one concept but many. Same with reincarnation. For example, tibetan buddhist believe karma to be something different from zen buddhist and they believe something different from hindus ...and so on. And even in the groups there will be a wide variation of concepts, the concepts evolve and get added to or dropped.

I think we are free to form our own concept. Mine is similar to Matthews, by the way, because it conforms to what we see in nature and even in quantum physics - what is observed/believed may happen and what happens is influenced by prior actions or inactions plus our thoughts. I find it easy to think the afterlife will be the same. Hopefully, there will be free will involved.

Also, it seems to me it is very logical there should be a spiritual evolution in the same way that there is evolution otherwise. So maybe we get a range of choices depending on what we do with our lives and, more imporantly, with our souls and the souls of the beings around us? This, in my opinion, fits in with what most monotheistic religions seem to think as well, if you look at the core of things without all the embellishments. We are told no one knows what heaven is like, arent we  ;)

All other things, especially just pure curel randomness, are too awful for me to believe in, so I choose not to^^

I caution anyone who might take from these conversations that something they have thought or done has brought a miserable circumstance on themselves. That is not always true. However, a person can always improve their circumstances by focusing on positive and constructive thoughts and actions. That does not mean it is wrong to have sorrowful feelings or to need to move gradually through personal grief or anger. Life is a process.

The only person we truly have any control over is our own self. Therefore, we can choose how we respond. However, it may take time to practice.

This is where I believe affirmations can be helpful -- positive meditations, etc. It is helpful to practice positive and constructive thoughts, which are the purpose of such aids.

There are a multitude of these free resources online on youtube, so you can choose what you like best. They range from 5 minutes in length to longer ones you can listen to while drifting off to sleep or having a rest.

We are saturated with negative thoughts and images and belief systems by media sources, other people, our past, etc., so sometimes all it takes to restore balance is to allow some positive and hopeful thoughts to saturate our minds instead.

This does not have to take a long time, no matter what anyone says about doing something for 30 days or practicing somesuch for your entire life.

I apologize in advance if these thoughts are ridiculously obvious.... :)

To me, karma is like a default balancing device, along the lines of Matthew's cause and effect.  Our actions cause an imbalance and the pendulum swings back the other way to rectify the balance.  I don't see it as retributional or linked to reincarnation, but again, like Matthew, it just "is"...

usetawuz wrote on May 15^th, 2014 at 11:36am:

To me, karma is like a default balancing device, along the lines of Matthew's cause and effect.  Our actions cause an imbalance and the pendulum swings back the other way to rectify the balance.  I don't see it as retributional or linked to reincarnation, but again, like Matthew, it just "is"...

During this life yes, but not carried over into the afterlife.

Alan,

Why would Karma be any different on any spiritual plane before or after death?  What you put out in spirit is manifest in your world.  Sometimes, more immediately right after death.  If it is an operational law, it likely operates in all planes of existence.  "As above, so below."

I guess my current view of the initial posit is why object?  My working theory of the topics to which you object are not in line with your points from a theoretical or a personal experiential standpoint, but I don't object to your belief in them.  What I find objectionable is a hard and fast decision that something currently and absolutely unverifiable should be the subject of definitive opinions of valid and invalid...though even my level of objection to that abstract idea is minimal at best...and since no one has dropped a line on here for a few weeks, I felt it fitting and proper to do so.

usetawuz wrote on May 23^rd, 2014 at 1:06pm:

I guess my current view of the initial posit is why object?  My working theory of the topics to which you object are not in line with your points from a theoretical or a personal experiential standpoint, but I don't object to your belief in them.  What I find objectionable is a hard and fast decision that something currently and absolutely unverifiable should be the subject of definitive opinions of valid and invalid...though even my level of objection to that abstract idea is minimal at best...and since no one has dropped a line on here for a few weeks, I felt it fitting and proper to do so.

A bit convoluted at best? Ambiguous, what's your point?

Karma means consequence, that is all.

Consequence is what happens as a result of freewill.

There is physical consequence, emotional consequence, mental consequence; long term and short term consequence; individual, mutual, group, social, national and racial consequence; foreseeable and unforeseeable consequence.

Look around the room, at yourself, at the world, all that we see is either consequence or freewill exerting itself to create further consequence, and doing so either consciously or naively. Freewill and consequence, that is all there is, whether on mental, emotional or physical levels.

Why think and speak in foreign terms and confuse ourselves when we have words and thoughts in our own language with which our brains are wired?
Debating such foreign terms tends to make people look like pseudo-spiritual-intellectuals, stumbling about while missing the obvious.

If we would understand karma then we should not study it, but rather, study the law of consequence. For already and deeply, we understand consequence, for its understanding is already deep and back within our mental wiring. We then need only expand our understanding of it. 


As for learning from consequence - we may forget the occasion that we made that choice and exerted our freewill in that direction and experienced the consequences thereof, but we don't forget the re-arrangement of our values that our experience of consequence produced, and our values dictate our reflexive thinking, emotions and behaviour, so the lesson is fixed, whether we recall it or not.

1796 wrote on Jun 8^th, 2014 at 4:11am:

Karma means consequence, that is all. Consequence is what happens as a result of freewill. There is physical consequence, emotional consequence, mental consequence; long term and short term consequence; individual, mutual, group, social, national and racial consequence; foreseeable and unforeseeable consequence. Look around the room, at yourself, at the world, all that we see is either consequence or freewill exerting itself to create further consequence, and doing so either consciously or naively. Freewill and consequence, that is all there is, whether on mental, emotional or physical levels. Why think and speak in foreign terms and confuse ourselves when we have words and thoughts in our own language with which our brains are wired? Debating such foreign terms tends to make people look like pseudo-spiritual-intellectuals, stumbling about while missing the obvious. If we would understand karma then we should not study it, but rather, study the law of consequence. For already and deeply, we understand consequence, for its understanding is already deep and back within our mental wiring. We then need only expand our understanding of it.  As for learning from consequence - we may forget the occasion that we made that choice and exerted our freewill in that direction and experienced the consequences thereof, but we don't forget the re-arrangement of our values that our experience of consequence produced, and our values dictate our reflexive thinking, emotions and behaviour, so the lesson is fixed, whether we recall it or not.

Hi I agree with you on this, we all face consequences both for our good actions, which can lead to prosperity and bad action or decisions that can lead to disaster.

Hi Alan,
What do you think about everything being interconnected, and cyclic/spiralic, including our personality with all our thoughts, emotions and behaviour (what we think being what we tend to think again and then again, and emotions and behaviour follow), so that like a whirl pool we are, our freewilled self the initiator in the middle, struggling to control the circulating mental, emotional and behavioural currents of our own surrounding makeup. And with those circulating currents come the consequences of having set them into motion, having to deal with them and the repercussions and entanglements they drag back with them, on all levels of our being, mental, emotional and physical, all teaching us the lessons of the currents that we initiate.

cb

1796 wrote on Jun 11^th, 2014 at 4:12am:

Hi Alan, What do you think about everything being interconnected, and cyclic/spiralic, including our personality with all our thoughts, emotions and behaviour (what we think being what we tend to think again and then again, and emotions and behaviour follow), so that like a whirl pool we are, our freewilled self the initiator in the middle, struggling to control the circulating mental, emotional and behavioural currents of our own surrounding makeup. And with those circulating currents come the consequences of having set them into motion, having to deal with them and the repercussions and entanglements they drag back with them, on all levels of our being, mental, emotional and physical, all teaching us the lessons of the currents that we initiate. cb

The interconnectivity of all conscious sentient entities has been an idea I have likes for a long time. I see us as separate molecules, in the great creative ocean of the divine source and leave it to each of us to give it a title the deem fit. I like almighty God, or the Uncaused Cause.

Thus, by existing within this great ocean we affect it by our actions and it affects us by the action of other molecules within it, like ripples in a great pound.

All the Best Alan   

Yes, the ocean is an apt analogy.

Alan McDougall wrote on Jun 11^th, 2014 at 6:51am:

1796 wrote on Jun 11th, 2014 at 4:12am: Hi Alan, What do you think about everything being interconnected, and cyclic/spiralic, including our personality with all our thoughts, emotions and behaviour (what we think being what we tend to think again and then again, and emotions and behaviour follow), so that like a whirl pool we are, our freewilled self the initiator in the middle, struggling to control the circulating mental, emotional and behavioural currents of our own surrounding makeup. And with those circulating currents come the consequences of having set them into motion, having to deal with them and the repercussions and entanglements they drag back with them, on all levels of our being, mental, emotional and physical, all teaching us the lessons of the currents that we initiate. cb The interconnectivity of all conscious sentient entities has been an idea I have liked for a long time. I see us as separate molecules, in the great creative ocean of the divine source and leave it to each of us to give it a title the deem fit. I like almighty God, or the Uncaused Cause. Thus, by existing within this great ocean we affect it by our actions and it affects us by the action of other molecules within it, like ripples in a great pound. All the Best Alan

Biker_Chick wrote on Jun 12^th, 2014 at 12:57am:

Hey Alan. Nice to see you back, and I'm sure that you'll cope with being in the twilight of your physical life..We all, men and women[99%]pass over into Spirit and the Afterlife, at the age of 70's to 80's in first world countries. I know you're in your 70's, so I wish you ascendance into the higher Afterlife when it's time for your passing. Much Love. Biker_Chick

Thanks you lady, assuming you are a young lady re you atavar.

Love

Alan

Why has Biker Chick's post been deleted?


crossbow

Biker_Chick wrote on Jun 27^th, 2014 at 12:56am:

1796 wrote on Jun 13th, 2014 at 4:59am: Why has Biker Chick's post been deleted? crossbow Hey! Thanks for the concern! It seems like this Alan dude likes to try to get people barred for not acknowledging his insanity, and DID and MPD mental disorders(google it up), as the raves and rants of some undiscovered genius. His last paragraph below in the link, shows he's just a retired 'blue collar' worker(Fitter and Turner)with serious mental and emotional problems. No doubt he'll delete this post of his, just like all the self-incriminating, spaced out blabber, he posted over the years in many forums.  http://www.debunkingskeptics.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2364

It wasn't concern, it was a prompt to bring forth openness. 

There is a human tendency to hate most in others what we are battling against within our self or have only recently overcome. That is an attitudinal trap though, and our awareness of that trap can help us avoid it.

The DIDs and other PDs need not be life long debilitations; they are manageable and even curable. But there must first be recognition of the existence of the problem by the afflicted individual. Then even with acknowledgement of the problem it can still be difficult to overcome due to the sense of satisfaction the problem provides to the afflicted individual, even though the satisfaction is an unhealthy one. Most PDs are a form of addiction to an outlook that is unreal or out of true perspective, and the subsequent thinking and behaviour becomes maladjusted. 

Therefor, as well as self-honesty, there is required an adjustment of values and perspective. From there, thought, feelings and behaviour can settle into improved patterns.   

Personality disorders can cause much suffering and limitation to the individual, and to those around them as well. As humans, our freewill is not easy to wield, and our mind and personality is not an easy thing to control, even when the mind and personality is healthy and reasonably well adjusted. Anyone can lose perspective and develop mental-emotional illness or a personality disorder. In fact to some degree we are all such afflicted because no one has a continuously perfectly adjusted perspective. Those who's minds and personalities give them great struggle and conflict and even render them ill are not more than a step or two away from where the healthy minded stand. So easily anyone can go off the rails, so to speak, and struggle to find their way back to a healthier outlook and path. The key to a healthy mind is the heart. Like the physical heart nourishes the brain, so the heart centre nourishes the mind, although it is the head that directs the heart - the two work together.         

There are medications that can take the edge off a personality disorder and weaken its energy/impulses so as to make it easier for the individual to control the condition. And counselling/therapy can help - providing the therapist has sufficient understanding which unfortunately is often not the case, so shopping around can be required. And potentially the most helpful therapy is self help peer support programs, which naturally vary from organisation to organisation and from one group to another. The twelve step mental health programs are probably the best I think. They are modelled on the AA model but modified to suit mental disorders, including PDs. Much progress can be made through involvement in such groups.   

Biker_Chick wrote on Jun 29^th, 2014 at 12:46am:

http://able2know.org/topic/149302-1 Another one of his mentally stable posts!? 2007 and 2009. There was a 2012 copy of this post, in a scientific post forum, which he deleted when moderators and members questioned his sanity.

That link is an excellent personal and first hand description of true mania, by a person with excellent insight into his condition.

I say true mania because what is normally and popularly termed mania or manic is actually not, it is hypomania meaning low level mania, (hypo means low; hyper means high) and is the high energy swing that alternates with depression in the manic-depressive or bipolar individual. The reason the high energy swing of bipolar is called the hypomanic phase (low manic phase) is due to its comparison with true mania which is a far higher and more dangerous state of mania. True mania, when not treated, often ends in death.   

What the author of that article, Alan McDougall, describes, is a first hand account of true mania, which is a condition that few people are aware exists, unless they have experienced it, observed it in family members, or have worked in extreme areas of the psychiatric fields.   

From his description in the article, he was fortunate to have survived through his life with the condition, and more fortunate to have acquired the insight into the condition that he has. I imagine him to be an extraordinarily resilient and insightful individual. He is a man who's hand I would like to shake, for I admire those who struggle with themselves. They understand where lies the true task in life.

Words evident thought. And sure, he still has episodes of mild low level mania, as is evident in bouts of long and rambling posts. But he recognises that inclination and endeavours to control it.

With polite and friendly reminders from other forum users that he is posting too often and too long or rambling, he always re-assess himself and reins himself in.

I, for one am not the least bit interested in poster's researching someone's personal or psychiatric history.  This is an open public forum, and to get so involved in digging up "dirt," on another poster is disparaging and mean-spirited.  And, well rather boring.  It also has nothing to do with the topic (My objections with reincarnation and Karma).  Let me say that again; it has nothing to with the topic. 


If anyone, including Alan, or others such as Carl/Karmalars/?Bikerchick posts something I find over-the-top, I usually won't respond to the thread.  Others do the same, and it gets buried in the flow.  No reason to get into personal slights or insults.  Having a psychiatric history of an illness does not disqualify anything a person will ever say.  What, am I supposed to nod my head and say "ah yes, a history of mania, well his posts should be ignored?"  Nonsense.  And yet, we have posts like the last few!

Forums like this really pop when everyone is chiming in on what they think about an issue.  You get different perspectives, and most people like that.  Threads end up getting offensive and uninteresting when some mean-spirited person starts attacking another poster's character, intelligence, etc. without addressing the main topic of conversation.  Most of the time, this is done anonymously and has nothing to do with any topic of the afterlife. 

I'm of the "live and let live school," and initially I was against the idea of banning anybody from a website.  I've come around now, thanks to repeated offenders who poison the well here.  If you don't like a particular poster, then leave the thread alone.  If you have a point to make about the topic (reincarnation and karma), please let us know.  If you insult or disparage people directly, I am all for you being banned.  There is enough pollution in cyberspace.  To tolerate it for no good end would be insane.


M

Biker Chick has been banned for violating Posting Guidelines.

The Peer Moderator system is an anonymous system that doesn't let me see the screen names of those who report posts as violating guidelines.  So, I want to thank those of you who used the system to report Biker Chick posts.  On my end looks like another incarnation of Carl (who was banned also)

Thanks again for using the Peer Moderator form to call attention to this problem.

Bruce

In a sense that's consequence, what some call karma.

I agree, 1796.  And I think karma may be more a fundamental law of nature, like gravity.  It simply is.  Reincarnation, if it exists, would by necessity interact with karma.  The real issue of discussion (as I see it) is the notion of fatalism (the pre-destination of things) related to karma, vs. free-will (the idea that we always have the ability to plot a new course). 

To my way of thinking, karma is a knee-jerk reaction of action and consequence.  It is not "thought out," in that it just occurs.  The thinking person can either ignore it, but watch the consequences of their actions reappear again and again.  Then, in my opinion, when the person is ready, they can use their free will to chart a new course of action. 

Fatalistic thinking is a fearful thought process that assumes that we have no control of our fate or destiny, and that a person who commits horrible crimes in this life must be punished by being the receiver of the same acts in another (or burning in hellfire, etc.).  Pre-determined fate doesn't suit me.  Life presents us too many examples where we learn from our mistakes and see things differently and make amends. 

M

DocM wrote on Jul 2^nd, 2014 at 11:18am:

... The real issue of discussion (as I see it) is the notion of fatalism (the pre-destination of things) related to karma, vs. free-will (the idea that we always have the ability to plot a new course).  ... M

Freewill and the law of consequence do not oppose each other, they work together in perfect harmony.

Every decision has consequences which form a ring of limitation around freewill which corrals freewill. Freewill can venture anywhere within that ring and in any direction within that ring out to its border, for the length of time that the ring lasts. The decisions that freewill makes within that ring dictate the direction of the next ring, and so freewill then crosses the boundary into the confinement of the next ring, and so on, ring after ring. This is the thread of freewill and the chain of consequence. The thread and the chain advance or meander together; the thread advancing with each decision within the rings of limitation forming around it as it advances. Thus each decision is limited by the consequences of previous decisions, but freewill is always free to go in any direction it chooses, but always surrounded by the consequences of its previous decisions.

cb   

Tom Campbell has a recent Youtube video of an interview with Prof Eric Cunningham that I think brings out some interesting aspects of karma / free choice in relationship to how we interpret our history.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7wxBmOc6ot8

Lights of Love wrote on Jul 3^rd, 2014 at 10:18am:

Tom Campbell has a recent Youtube video of an interview with Prof Eric Cunningham that I think brings out some interesting aspects of karma / free choice in relationship to how we interpret our history. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7wxBmOc6ot8

That is interesting subject matter, but I think its made dull by both men putting on a scripted over wordy performance. Those who know their subject, when being interviewed, don't need to write down their answers and then read them out. Personally I would rather have observed a freer interview.

I agree.  The scripted bit is annoying, though this isn't TC's usual style.  He probably has a couple hundred videos on YouTube and this is the first one I've seen where this was done.  If I'm not mistaken, these were Q & A's taken from a seminar he did.

I haven't heard of him before except the occasional mention of his name on these threads. If he knows what he's talking about then hopefully that will be the last time he reads his answers. And maybe use a more down to earth interviewer too.

I agree with Mathew, that karma is a type of force.
The law of karma / law of consequence is part of the natural cyclic/spiralic dynamic of creation/existence. It results when freewill (free initiative) is immersed into a universe where every dynamic great and small is cyclic. Throughout existence there are only cyclic streams, so any initiative that is exerted amongst them becomes a cause for a comeback.   

Quote:

I haven't heard of him before except the occasional mention of his name on these threads. If he knows what he's talking about then hopefully that will be the last time he reads his answers. And maybe use a more down to earth interviewer too.

lol... I'd think a historian would be "down to earth", however, to me it's about the content, rather than the presentation.  As long as the content gives pause for thought, I'm ok with other people's idiosyncrasies now and then.

Quote:

I agree with Mathew, that karma is a type of force. The law of karma / law of consequence is part of the natural cyclic/spiralic dynamic of creation/existence. It results when freewill (free initiative) is immersed into a universe where every dynamic great and small is cyclic. Throughout existence there are only cyclic streams, so any initiative that is exerted amongst them becomes a cause for a comeback.

Yes, I'm in agreement, too.  Karma is simply "consequence" of any action, including thoughts where pattern is developed.

K

But although karma is a force of nature and is definite, it is not absolute - love/forgiveness overrides the law of consequence.

Not sure that I believe love overrides karma.  More that if we turn toward love and forgiveness, the natural consequence (karma) is to break the cycle of suffering.  So to my way of thinking, karma works the same, whether in ego-related thinking (which leads to action/reaction consequence) or in loving thought (which leads to loving consequence and breaks the cycle of suffering). 

My thoughts, anyway.

M

I agree with you Matthew. For sure, what you describe occurs. But that is just a change of course, a change of attitude, outlook and thought, with its associated consequence upon the life of the one who makes the change. Love/forgiveness can do more than that; it absorbs and nullifies energies that otherwise would circulate around and bring back consequences to those who sent them forth. It works not just upon oneself but also upon others. 

Here is a gross example:
A man may strike you in the face, and with immediate reflex you strike him back in return. That is his karma; his consequence. In effect he was struck by his own punch returning to him. But if you loved with true love which contains forgiveness, then when he strikes you, you would not strike him back, but absorb his strike and not return his strike to him. Your forgiveness has nullified his karma, the consequences of his actions.

That is a gross and physical example with physical energy, but the same is true for the subtle energies of intention, thought and emotion, which also carry consequence. Forgiveness is like a wall of foam that absorbs all sound and does not send back an echo. What ever energies come up against forgiveness do not return to where they came, they are absorbed and nullified, they never can return to their owner and take back their consequences to him or her.

cb

My understanding is a bit different from what you're describing.  Everyone is responsible for their own karma, which is held within one's own consciousness and is an accumulation of past choices, experiences and their understanding / interpretation of those experiences.  Their karma (what is held within their own consciousness) in a sense dictates the most likely probabilities for their thoughts and actions, though freedom of choice is always available. 

In your example, the man that punched someone was driven by his accumulated karma.  His intent, which is the mechanism that propels consciousness, was motivated by what we call fear at the being (karmic) level.  The man that took the punch demonstrated his personal karma in which his intent was motivated by what we call love at the being (karmic) level.  Just because the second man did not punch the first man back does not nullify the first man's karma, though it could perhaps give the first man the experience of seeing love in action or in the sense that it may at least give him pause for thought and this would be consequence in action, but not nullification.

The first man's karma would not be nullified or even changed very much until he, through personal experience, was able to make different choices that would promote a different way of being, thinking, acting that created different patterns than what he had previously created.

In other words, all of our reactions are a reflection of our accumulated karma (patterns developed within personal consciousness) and the only one that can change / nullify negative karma is our self.  We do that by making different choices about how we feel, think, act, and eventually we change our karmic patterns, our consciousness.  No one can do that for us because each of us is responsible for the creation of our own karma/consciousness.  Certainly we can and do learn from our interactions with each other, still, only we can ultimately change ourselves at the being level.

K

Here is another scenario (a true story). A woman is angry with a man and punches him in the stomach in the middle of a crowded dance hall. He is angry back at her and breaks up with her "forever" after making sure she knows exactly how angry he is. Years later the woman reunites with the man. She becomes angry again one day and begins to attempt to punch him in the stomach for precisely the same reason as her earlier action in her life.

An actual energetic force beyond her control or imagination turns her physically around so that her punch lands directly behind her as a loud slap on the wall. It is like something out of The Matrix and beyond her skill level physically. It is as if there is an invisible barrier there and she is forcefully turned around.

The man announces that he has never loved anyone more than her.

I don't know how karma works in this scenario but it sure is a memorable moment. Forgiveness is a two-way street, is all I can say. :)

My own experiences with karma show it to be much more of a general action/reaction than some may think.  We attract to us that which we put out there.  Love, kindness anger, hate.  I do not see people immediately suffering the exact same fate after they act cruelly.  Rather, their hateful action leads to consequences which bring more misery and hate into their own lives.  I do not believe there is a cosmic justice system at play here or a "judging."  It just is.   We are, I believe, meant to see that thought = action = manifestation in the physical world.  It can be a deeply moving spiritual evolution for those who recognize the process.  Or, it can be an endless cycle of negativity without any understanding of what is going on. 


M

Karma (consequences) may or may not manifest during one physical lifetime.

However, that is the purpose of the life review.  That is the ultimate karma.  We not only see the hurt we inflicted on others but we actually experience it as well.  If that's not karma, what is?

There was a story recently in local news about a mother who accidentally ran over her infant child as she was backing down the driveway.  If she believed in karma, what a nightmare she is facing.  Did she do something so horrible that she has to face the life long agony of having caused the death of her innocent child?  Or did the child do something in a past life that the consequence was him losing his own life?

To me, a hard and fast belief in karma can lead to untold heartache.  We all will face a life review, and at that time we will experience both the joy we brought to others as well as the hurt.

In the meantime, looking for reasons why something happens to us is really a pointless exercise.

R

Hi Roger,

It has been my experience that there are random events and energies we constantly interact with each day.  An accident can be and often is simply be an accident.  To my way of thinking, karma can not be simplified to giving a direct immediate response to every action.  So an accidental killing, etc. does not, in my opinion generate negative karma, nor is it necessarily "payback."  It is the intent combined with the action that seems to change probabilities and generate circumstances in our lives.

A tsunami kills on occasion over 100,000 people within hours in Indonesia.  The idea that each and every person who was killed "deserved" that or "chose" that death is patently absurd.  It was a force of nature.  It was not generated with intent.  In short, it fell outside of the laws of karma. 

I think that with introspection, while we are alive we can all trace our thoughts and actions and see how we got to our current life circumstance.  I don't think all of us require a life review or get one, but I just don't know. 

M

<<It is the intent combined with the action that seems to change probabilities and generate circumstances in our lives.>>

I agree Matthew.  My point was that the average person who believes in Karma may not understand that distinction, and therefore may think that every negative thing that happens must be because of something they did in the past. 

It also can have unintended consequences.  We've probably all heard of how, in India, beggars are ignored on the basis that they are just experiencing the consequences of past actions and it's not appropriate to interfere with karma. 

Maybe so, maybe not.  Sometimes I wonder if those who ignore beggars might find themselves in similar circumstances at some future point.  Kind of ironic when you think of it.

R