I have been away for a good while from the forum, but thought I would bring up this subject

The Enigma of the existence of evil and the Garden of Eden and GOD the Benevolent

I know the story of the Garden and Eden and the fall of man are thought to be a mythical account of a people long past in the mists of time, but I base this essay on the literal reading of the Book of Genesis and progress from there.

Remember that Adams name means "Man or Humanity! Thus the story about Adam and Eve is also about all of humanity  still to be born

How can we ever reconcile the fact of evil, suffering and pain, existing side by side with a benevolent Holy God of light and love?

Let us go back to the story of the Garden of Eden Geneses Chap2 verse 17, where God says to Adam, that dam may eat of any tree except for the "tree of knowledge of good and evil"

Note; The tree of knowledge of Good and evil, so Evil existed before Adam. "Adam" also represents entire humanity, still to be born and how these still to be born, would have to relate to God.

It is true that God is all-knowing, thus he knew before hand that Adam was going to fail the test and eat the forbidden fruit as urged of by his wife Eve, the name Eve means “out of man” and she was a reflection of all woman still to be born and how woman would interact with God all down the history of the world, just like it did for Adam her husband.

So why did God give Adam and Eve a test he knew they would fail? , it does no seem fair at first glance? 
I hear a loud reply from the Congregation "because He wanted us to have a free will and not be robots".

It its partly true that when God created Adam and then humanity that God did give Adam/humanity a free will and not want Adam/humanity to be robots, controlled by him by some means of remote control, making them into mindless entities ,always on his beck and call a  mere toy for God to play with.

In this scenario, God would have had to constantly observing mankind’s ever action , decision and thought and forcing them to do only right things, by manipulating Adam/Humanity, from also doing wrong things, before Adam/Eve/Humanity could act on what they wanted to do , or even before they had thought about doing an unsafe action Thus without a free will Adam /humanity) would have been forced by God to act and think and perform like his puppet, into doing exactly what He wanted them to do.

If God had not given Adam/humanity a free will, God been a Holy Perfect God would have had to investigate every act of Adam/humanities their every thought and intervene on very single moment even before they might have about it, every action or decision made by Adam/humanity would have been first have had to be vetted and approved by God, before he would have allowed Adam/humanity to do what they wanted to do.


God would have to act with the whole of mankind in this way, because he is Holy and could not tolerate wrong in his perfect domain. He would have had to prevent them from even contemplating an act to sin or come to any harm sadly in this case Adam/Humanity would have never known that they were existing and living a life of unimaginable wonder, beauty perfection of Paradise, because Adam/humanity would  have had anything to compare their lives with in this heavenly place

However this is not my full explanation God could easily given Adam absolute free rain and said to him "Adam your can do anything you want without any reservations"

Surely, God could simply have give Adam a free will and allow him to anything he wanted to do without the "necessity of any test".

Nevertheless, God, in his infinite wisdom goes ahead and gives Adam (and Eve) a test he "knows they are going to fail, why? Was this fair seeing the awful consequences for humanity down through the age?

Yes absolutely as I will describe later in this essay!

Let us go back to the origin of evil, where did it come from.

Isaiah Capt. 45 Verse 7 G-D says "I form the light and create darkness: I make peace and create "evil" I God do all these things. God made everything so he must have made evil but why?

Let us go back to Adam and the pampered environment of the Garden of Eden. If Adam and Eve had been left in the Garden of Eden, remained there and obeyed God by not eating the forbidden fruit. In this hypothetical situation, God would have known that Adam and Eve were going to obey Him and after their obedience of passing the test allowed them to existed forever a paradise setting of beauty warmth, comfort, never ever have to toil work just reach out and eat do any thing they want..

Of course on first glance this seems wonderful but think about it a little longer This state of eternal infinite never ending sugary perfection, would be wonderful for say a hundred years or a thousand years a hundred thousand years, but having never ever experienced cold, they could not appreciate warmth, never being hungry never appreciate the joy and taste of food, never being thirsty they would not appreciate the taste and satisfaction of sparking water , never knowing hate the would not know what love was etc .

Therefore, after countless years paradise would become a boring never changing hell to them. Therefore, God, in his infinite wisdom and love, simply had to banish them into the world or toil sorrow and hardship, in order for humanity to truly appreciate paradise, because they had experienced suffering, pain, and sorrow in this mortal world.

Adam's and Eve’s offspring would then have existed forever in this a one-sided unchallenging reality in Eden, never knowing or appreciated the wonder of eternal life, because they would not know what death was, or how really beautiful the paradise they existed in because, they would never experienced the opposite. But God knew in his infinite wisdom that to become like him they must know evil, pain and sorrow to become fully functional free thinking beings similar to him in consciousness and indeed co- creators of their own domain and reality after death.

To conclude God was being fair with Adam and Eve/humanity and did give them the test, which he knew they would fail. God in deep and profound sorrow had drive them out from the paradise of Eden , into the present reality world of thorns, cold, dark, pain, evil etc, etc. This reality is based on a duality we know evil so we know the beauty of goodness; we know truth so we can hate the lie, and we experience the light so that we know dark.

Humanity can look back on a "paradise lost with a longing to for the eternal wonder and beauty of the original Eden, which they would love and rejoice as paradise regained

God however made a plan to rejoin him in Jesus Christ the lord, by free choice and with the full knowledge that heaven is an unimaginable wonder beautiful place of everlasting life.

Thus we now exists in a universe of duality

Good and evil
Light and dark
Truth and lie
Deception and honesty
Love and hate
War and Peace
Positive and negative
Faith and despair
Holiness and depravity
Warm and hot
Life and death

You must know the negative to appreciate the positive!

Alan McDougall

Hi Alan,


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How can we ever reconcile the fact of evil, suffering and pain, existing side by side with a benevolent Holy God of light and love?

Explain evil as stemming from satan, meddling ETs or a grumpy neighbour?


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Let us go back to the story of the Garden of Eden Geneses Chap2 verse 17, where God says to Adam, that dam may eat of any tree except for the "tree of knowledge of good and evil

"You will certainly die" is a bit harsh if knowing it's going to happen regardless, and at the same time try to block free will by presenting false knowledge about the tree of knowledge of good and evil.


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It is true that God is all-knowing, thus he knew before hand that Adam was going to fail the test and eat the forbidden fruit as urged of by his wife Eve, the name Eve means “out of man” and she was a reflection of all woman still to be born and how woman would interact with God all down the history of the world, just like it did for Adam her husband.

Allegedly the wife was made as a suitable helper. Maybe to cook home made meals, clean the house, iron the man's work pants, and care for the kids while the man relaxes in the chair reading and writing on the Conversation Board on his apple ipad.


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So why did God give Adam and Eve a test he knew they would fail? , it does no seem fair at first glance?  I hear a loud reply from the Congregation "because He wanted us to have a free will and not be robots.

Not everybody has the luxury of being in a congregation, which can also be a robotic experience. Can imagine the answer from a crowd being in the form of a common question. But not sure what the question is yet.


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However this is not my full explanation God could easily given Adam absolute free rain and said to him "Adam your can do anything you want without any reservations

If rain is free mankind/humanity can do without any water reservations. ;)


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Surely, God could simply have give Adam a free will and allow him to anything he wanted to do without the "necessity of any test.

Or safer tests, gradually increasing in scope with added responsibility, until the final test(s).


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Of course on first glance this seems wonderful but think about it a little longer This state of eternal infinite never ending sugary perfection, would be wonderful for say a hundred years or a thousand years a hundred thousand years, but having never ever experienced cold, they could not appreciate warmth, never being hungry never appreciate the joy and taste of food, never being thirsty they would not appreciate the taste and satisfaction of sparking water , never knowing hate the would not know what love was etc.

..and never having experienced the pleothora of darker actions which makes hating a breeze.


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Therefore, after countless years paradise would become a boring never changing hell to them. Therefore, God, in his infinite wisdom and love, simply had to banish them into the world or toil sorrow and hardship, in order for humanity to truly appreciate paradise, because they had experienced suffering, pain, and sorrow in this mortal world.

Getting used to working hard, isn't a paradise then going to become boring? Can a number of individuals from the group of humanity truly appreciate a paradise even if the rest don't?


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To conclude God was being fair with Adam and Eve/humanity and did give them the test, which he knew they would fail. God in deep and profound sorrow had drive them out from the paradise of Eden , into the present reality world of thorns, cold, dark, pain, evil etc, etc. This reality is based on a duality we know evil so we know the beauty of goodness; we know truth so we can hate the lie, and we experience the light so that we know dark.

Could also have expanded eden to make room for a fenced in area which the smell of sweet orange and myrrh would be carried with the wind into, to remind the inhabitants of perpetual night of a paradise lost. And no need then for sorrow as humanity wouldn't have to leave.

Lies don't have to be appreciated, but why hate them?


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You must know the negative to appreciate the positive!

And areas between too warm and too cold.

Hi Bob,

Now you have shown how stupid I am, that I cant spell and how much better you great mind is than my little pathetic one is. I think I will take leave of this forum , of which unlike you I have been a member of for many years and go elsewhere , where I don't have to endure this type of meaningless abuse.

Next time you respond to someones thread, make an effort to give an intelligent response instead of this inane nonsense!

Hi again Alan,

The first paragraph in your response is imo mostly about what you're thinking of yourself and what to do, and the second what you're thinking about me, and what you want me to do. Does that make any sense?

Does it make sense that I or someone else here write how I/they think and see, not necessarily how it is, or has anything to do with you, even if the first response would have made sense to you?

On a scale from 1 to 2, or even 5, how sure are you that I actually think anyone is cupid for making cyclops?

Welcome back, Alan!

In my view, the story of Adam and Eve makes sense once it is understood as the  birth of conscience, and not as the story of the Fall.  The Serpent's temptation illustrates an essential trait of evil--the use of a truth to deceive by setting up a lie.  The Serpent correctly notes that if the couple eat the forbidden fruit, they will "become like God, knowing the difference between good and evil."  This truth is used to set up the lie that disobedience will not lead to death. 

In fact, God celebrates, with the divine counsel, the fact that the couple have " become like us, knowing the difference between good and evil (3:22)."   The couple's need to test limits like a small child has made them moral creatures through the birth of conscience.  All along, the divine plan was to induce disobedence!  Paul understands the story in this way in Romans 11:32: "God locked all people into disobedience, so that He might have mercy on them all."  Notice the verb "locked" and its implication that Adam and Eve's disobedience was unavoidable. 

Don 

Berserk2 wrote on Feb 8^th, 2014 at 10:43pm:

Welcome back, Alan! In my view, the story of Adam and Eve makes sense once it is understood as the  birth of conscience, and not as the story of the Fall.  The Serpent's temptation illustrates an essential trait of evil--the use of a truth to deceive by setting up a lie.  The Serpent correctly notes that if the couple eat the forbidden fruit, they will "become like God, knowing the difference between good and evil."  This truth is used to set up the lie that disobedience will not lead to death.  In fact, God celebrates, with the divine counsel, the fact that the couple have " become like us, knowing the difference between good and evil (3:22)."   The couple's need to test limits like a small child has made them moral creatures through the birth of conscience.  All along, the divine plan was to induce disobedence!  Paul understands the story in this way in Romans 11:32: "God locked all people into disobedience, so that He might have mercy on them all."  Notice the verb "locked" and its implication that Adam and Eve's disobedience was unavoidable.  Don

Hi Don unlike Bob, you make sense, I agree with what you have written, especially that Adam and Eve's was unavoidable, this had to be allowed by God for his divine plan for humanity to take place

Thank you!

Alan, though Don and I view things differently, I can also make sense of his post in this thread possibly because the artistic licence also contains a sense of distinction. Good for you that you snapped out of victimhood so that you can live in interesting times.

  This allegorical story in the Bible is multi leveled, with different layers and meanings to it. 

   To understand this account more fully, you have to understand that what some have translated as "God" from the original Hebrew and other Semitic languages is NOT singular "being" or even general creative force as some may think in terms of a "Source" or what not. 

Elohim is a plural, and Elohim often seem to be describing in the OT and NT what other cultures referred to as "Sky Gods" aka E.T.'s (and at other times to a much bigger concept of Co-Creator Beings). 

  These are E.T.'s with genetic manipulation capability and there were and have always been different groups involved with the evolution of humanity. 

  Some with our higher intentions in mind, and some who let themselves get mis lead into selfishness and unconcern with principles of Oneness and Love and that of harmony and balance. 

   The "Serpent" in same, represents both the general force or consciousness of rebellion in relation to the above Creative Forces or Source and the Light, which originally happened in Spirit long before the physical Earth was even a thought in the Co-Creator's mind AND...

  Also literally represents one of those Elohim groups who has long been in the ways of rebellion towards that of Oneness, Love, harmony and balance.  Their conception, their will of what should or shouldn't be done or enacted is all that matters to them.  They think themselves a law unto themselves, and they don't care who get's hurt in the seeking of their goals.  They are naught but our wayward brothers, parts of Source and the Whole that rebelled long ago and got stuck within the physical and corrupted a very old race of beings.

  Today, in modern culture they are known as the "Reptilian" E.T.'s.  Besides snakes and serpents, they have also been referred to as dragon in the the Bible.   

    One of their issues has long been, being sexually involved with us, and it seems particularly the Reptilian males involved with human females.  Even today, Reptilian males fool, mislead, and skew human females to have sex with them.  (not so different i suppose than a lot of human males as well, but more extreme).

  The other E.T. groups, the wiser and less seflish ones, realized how limiting and unproductive this external influence was, and told them these it should not be allowed. 

  The sort of head honcho of these Elohim, whom is the Creator Being of this Reality got involved with this Earth drama on many levels, and has limited their involvement with humans.  He still allows some interaction, because on one hand this wayward Reptilian group is both our Karmic attraction and also perhaps a necessary testing force at times.

   We must meet what we have attracted through our own error and imbalance, and we have many similarities to this group.  Out of many E.T. groups, they more individualistic than many of the others, though a bit more group minded than we are.

  Adam and Eve represent and correspond to both actual individuals around a long time ago, and also to the new races that were being developed by the evolved E.T.s under the direction of the Co Creator Being.  Genetic refinement, because there was some genetic and spirit tampering on Earth in long ages past, which led to undesirable and limiting genetic influences in forms that consciousnesses were getting stuck within.

  In fact, the Creator Being himself, incarnated into one of these new and more genetically pure* human forms and allowed himself to be led into the ways of selfishness so that he could get entangled in this mess and become a pattern of human growth back to Oneness with the Source and with Love.

  This is why the NT refers to Jesus as both the first Adam and the last Adam.   Jesus's Disk, had projected an aspect of itself as "Adam" so long ago, and as Jesus completed his process of being the ultimate example and standard. 

He went through the rounds like all of us.  He had lifetimes of forgetfulness, of being limited, of being selfish and unbalanced, of having karma to meet.  As Jesus, the last Adam, he over came all as a human born of a woman, yet called "the only Son of God" not because he was the only child of the Source within consciousness BUT because his physical male body was the only one created by the purely Creative forces and not by the typical means of copulation between a man and a woman. 

    This is why he is referred as the only begotten.

   And i very much disagree with Don's assessment that disobedience in general that was something fostered or sought after. 

This is ONLY true in relation to the individual Adam and his companion, who again, had to let himself get led in the ways of selfishness so that he could get stuck to some extent himself.  Here was a radiantly and completely pure Light being, a Co-Creator God who could manifest any form for himself. 

     How could he help humanity without trying to get stuck and mired into the physical reality himself?   

  So, it WAS planned for him in the particular, but NOT for us in the general.  In fact, i'm pretty sure the Logos had wished and hoped that it's children and it's brethren had chosen more wisely and had not gotten so far of course, and the beauty and harmony of his Creation gotten so distorted and imbalanced. 

   What we see of and in this world today of suffering and despair, is but a shadow of some of these much more ancient times.  But this world has long been an extreme one, and long been in the dark, and long have been the retrieval efforts here.  We are so very glad that we are coming to a period and cycle that humanity may finally fully awaken from the nightmare it has imagined and co-created for itself, and become the Light beings in physical form that we were meant to be. 

  Some will see this as perhaps an exercise in creative writing and imagination, but those with ears to hear will feel the truth in their souls of what i speak and i know of what i speak having been involved with this retrieval effort since the very beginning.

 

   

   

   

wrote on Feb 9^th, 2014 at 10:03am:

Alan, though Don and I view things differently, I can also make sense of his post in this thread possibly because the artistic licence also contains a sense of distinction. Good for you that you snapped out of victimhood so that you can live in interesting times.

I have never been a victim of anything! You also insult Don in a less obvious and subtle way than than you did me. There has never been a time since the beginning of human history that was not interesting.

You think both Don and I are talking rubbish!

Hi Alan-

Welcome back to the board.

Do you still do remote viewing?

R

Alan McDougall wrote on Feb 8^th, 2014 at 10:57am:

... I don't have to endure this type of meaningless abuse.

Aw diddums.

rondele wrote on Feb 10^th, 2014 at 9:55am:

Hi Alan- Welcome back to the board. Do you still do remote viewing? R

Hi Rondele,

Nice to hear from you again, I have not done any remote viewing for a while , but have been very active elsewhere on
physics, astronomy and philosophical forums as well as writing about  my experiences during life.

Keep Well

Alan

1796 wrote on Feb 10^th, 2014 at 9:56am:

Alan McDougall wrote on Feb 8th, 2014 at 10:57am: ... I don't have to endure this type of meaningless abuse. Aw diddums.

If you are unable to dialogue, with intelligent members of the forum, keep quiet until you have something real to add to the forum, or buzz off in my opinion!

Alan McDougall wrote on Feb 10^th, 2014 at 10:08am:

1796 wrote on Feb 10th, 2014 at 9:56am: Alan McDougall wrote on Feb 8th, 2014 at 10:57am: ... I don't have to endure this type of meaningless abuse. Aw diddums. If you are unable to dialogue, with intelligent members of the forum, keep quiet until you have something real to add to the forum, or buzz off in my opinion!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dFJSp0XeGUU

1796 wrote on Feb 10^th, 2014 at 10:29am:

Alan McDougall wrote on Feb 10th, 2014 at 10:08am: 1796 wrote on Feb 10th, 2014 at 9:56am: Alan McDougall wrote on Feb 8th, 2014 at 10:57am: ... I don't have to endure this type of meaningless abuse. Aw diddums. If you are unable to dialogue, with intelligent members of the forum, keep quiet until you have something real to add to the forum, or buzz off in my opinion! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dFJSp0XeGUU

Alan,


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You think both Don and I are talking rubbish!

You're thinking that, and I know this how? Because I'm not thinking it, that's how. The projection is yours and it's directed at you. And Don. Is there any truth to this? Could it be helpful for you to be aware of this? Do with it what you will, if anything.

Good answer for the chinese "curse". :)

wrote on Feb 10^th, 2014 at 11:14am:

Alan, Quote: You think both Don and I are talking rubbish! You're thinking that, and I know this how? Because I'm not thinking it, that's how. The projection is yours and it's directed at you. And Don. Is there any truth to this? Could it be helpful for you to be aware of this? Do with it what you will, if anything. Good answer for the chinese "curse". :)

If you smiley indicates you want to be friendly instead of trying to make a fool of me, I would like to dialogue with you, you might find that I am a very informed and interesting person on all things esoteric. I have also written extensively on many subjects and not only talked the talk but walked the walk, as was the case of my remote viewing some time ago on the forum, which I might bring back for those who are interested in this type of thing

Alan

Hi Alan,

My avatar is suited for being straightforward so probably better to stop at this very point. Hope our back and forth was somehow worthwhile for you, I at least learnt something and for that specifically I am thankful. Thanks.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gBzJGckMYO4

Personally I don't see any enigma in the Genesis creation story, it makes good sense to me, no contradictions in itself, and see it as symbolic and allegorical - representative of far greater and abstract forces and happenings which are hard for us to comprehend as they are but which can be glimpsed symbolically and are best communicated and preserved through symbolic stories like that. I do think that gently musing on such stories and symbols/allegory/parables can be a good mind stretch.

I'll go out on a limb here and predict that one day symbolism will be recognised as being as much a science and universal language as mathematics, existent in its own right. But not until its code is cracked. It seems that currently in regard to understanding symbolism we are barely touching the subject, like the Australian Aborigines before white settlement who had no concept of mathematics and who's counting system consisted of one, two, many, and many-many. Them back then trying to do mathematics is like us now trying to decipher symbols.

It doesn't take much though, just an introduction to a concept, in the right way, at the right time, in its order, under the right circumstances, and some necessity or urgency to spice it along, and new sciences are born and grasped.


crossbow   

1796 wrote on Feb 10^th, 2014 at 7:27pm:

Personally I don't see any enigma in the Genesis creation story, it makes good sense to me, no contradictions in itself, and see it as symbolic and allegorical - representative of far greater and abstract forces and happenings which are hard for us to comprehend as they are but which can be glimpsed symbolically and are best communicated and preserved through symbolic stories like that. I do think that gently musing on such stories and symbols/allegory/parables can be a good mind stretch. I'll go out on a limb here and predict that one day symbolism will be recognised as being as much a science and universal language as mathematics, existent in its own right. But not until its code is cracked. It seems that currently in regard to understanding symbolism we are barely touching the subject, like the Australian Aborigines before white settlement who had no concept of mathematics and who's counting system consisted of one, two, many, and many-many. Them back then trying to do mathematics is like us now trying to decipher symbols. It doesn't take much though, just an introduction to a concept, in the right way, at the right time, in its order, under the right circumstances, and some necessity or urgency to spice it along, and new sciences are born and grasped. crossbow

Good post, if we take the story in a more literal sense, then God had to allow them to fail the test, in order for humanity to have a free will

Alan McDougall wrote on Feb 11^th, 2014 at 5:08am:

... if we take the story in a more literal sense, then God had to allow them to fail the test, in order for humanity to have a free will

Yes, its about freewill and its potential to learn.

It also covers the nature of the individual human soul, and the structure of creation and of collective life, and the nature of relationships between life and fundamental laws and guidelines for best progress. Probably the most compact and fullest symbolic story ever told.
 
I wouldn't call it a test and a fail though, more a threshold clearly marked, the options and their consequences prior stated, and the order given not to cross the threshold, so that those who do would be functioning and learning by their own freewill from the outset.    

To me the story of the garden of Eden is a pure allegory and may be uninterpreted on more than one level.  But for me, it is about God's love for his creation in allowing individual people to separate themselves out to explore existence.  The idea of a divine punishment is, to my mind ridiculous.

In the garden, there is a symbiosis, as there is in heaven.  Adam's initial state is one of unity with everything in the garden, and no physical ailment or need.  This is much like a description of heaven.  God has a plan to allow individual people to explore what it is to be apart from the whole, but he wants them to do it on their own, and in the end, share the experience.  Separation is artificial, it is not real, but in the physical world, outside of Eden, it appears to be real.  This is suffering.  God sets the tree of knowledge in the garden, knowing full well that man will decide to explore this separate existence.  I agree with Don, that he rejoices in the decision, even if the deck was stacked. 

The tree of knowledge is knowledge of the physical world, and the false dichotomies it contains.  So, in some ways, the wisdom of unity before the fall trumps  the tree of knowledge in spiritual understanding.  But be that as it may, Adam decides, whether seduced by the serpent or not, with his own choice (free will) to eat of the apple.

The idea that man must be banished from the garden lest he eat of the tree of life and live forever is ludicrous.  The state of separation when we believe ourselves apart from God, love and the whole is incompatible with Eden.  Adam and Eve, by separating consciousness out into individuals banished themselves!  In doing so, they created their own consciousness system (earth) and all the suffering that is now in it due to the belief systems that support it.  When God mentioned the trials to come, it was simply to state a fact, not to inflict punishment as people misinterpret.  The inner heavens have no disease, no pain, and no physical death because they have no concept of separation from God and love. 

If it were possible to stay alive indefinitely in a human form, compressed into flesh, without the full ability to grow and manifest with mind, how sad would that be?  Darn straight, I would keep my kids away from the tree of life if it maintained the human form forever, as we are meant to learn while in this virtual world on earth, but not to be imprisoned here. 

I think it unfortunate that people take the story so literally, though I admit that there can be teaching points about honesty, betrayal, and love to be found, even on that literal level.

M

DocM wrote on Feb 11^th, 2014 at 9:31am:

To me the story of the garden of Eden is a pure allegory and may be uninterpreted on more than one level.  But for me, it is about God's love for his creation in allowing individual people to separate themselves out to explore existence.  The idea of a divine punishment is, to my mind ridiculous. In the garden, there is a symbiosis, as there is in heaven.  Adam's initial state is one of unity with everything in the garden, and no physical ailment or need.  This is much like a description of heaven.  God has a plan to allow individual people to explore what it is to be apart from the whole, but he wants them to do it on their own, and in the end, share the experience.  Separation is artificial, it is not real, but in the physical world, outside of Eden, it appears to be real.  This is suffering.  God sets the tree of knowledge in the garden, knowing full well that man will decide to explore this separate existence.  I agree with Don, that he rejoices in the decision, even if the deck was stacked.  The tree of knowledge is knowledge of the physical world, and the false dichotomies it contains.  So, in some ways, the wisdom of unity before the fall trumps  the tree of knowledge in spiritual understanding.  But be that as it may, Adam decides, whether seduced by the serpent or not, with his own choice (free will) to eat of the apple. The idea that man must be banished from the garden lest he eat of the tree of life and live forever is ludicrous.  The state of separation when we believe ourselves apart from God, love and the whole is incompatible with Eden.  Adam and Eve, by separating consciousness out into individuals banished themselves!  In doing so, they created their own consciousness system (earth) and all the suffering that is now in it due to the belief systems that support it.  When God mentioned the trials to come, it was simply to state a fact, not to inflict punishment as people misinterpret.  The inner heavens have no disease, no pain, and no physical death because they have no concept of separation from God and love.  If it were possible to stay alive indefinitely in a human form, compressed into flesh, without the full ability to grow and manifest with mind, how sad would that be?  Darn straight, I would keep my kids away from the tree of life if it maintained the human form forever, as we are meant to learn while in this virtual world on earth, but not to be imprisoned here.  I think it unfortunate that people take the story so literally, though I admit that there can be teaching points about honesty, betrayal, and love to be found, even on that literal level. M

Hi Matthew,

You are right on nearly all points in my opinion, especially the silly idea of a being living forever on a place like earth. The flow of entropy would prevent this from happening, indeed even the energy output of one single human being, given enough time would consume all the energy in the universe.

Come off it guy's. I've been reading Alan posts on his many blogs and websites, over the last decade, of which most are now defunct-deleted. I've also read many of his posts on other Spirituality Forums.

He suffers from chronic and acute mental illness, and is on industrial strength psychiatric medication. He told us so in his past posts. So how about giving him a break! Blessing and Love, Carl    

carl wrote on Feb 14^th, 2014 at 1:23am:

Come off it guy's. I've been reading Alan posts on his many blogs and websites, over the last decade, of which most are now defunct-deleted. I've also read many of his posts on other Spirituality Forums. He suffers from chronic and acute mental illness, and is on industrial strength psychiatric medication. He told us so in his past posts. So how about giving him a break! Blessing and Love, Carl

You make it sound as if I am insane which I am not, many great men suffered from the bipolar disorder and without them the world would have been much poorer.

Industrial strength psychiatrist medication, nonsense!! I am on Epilim and a mild antidepressant medication Venlor and have never been on any anti- psychotic drugs.

I have opened only one blog and website in an effort to learn how to use the internet.

If you had to post something personal about me on an open forum like this one at least make your information accurate.

The great people on this forum have always been kind to me and given me a break if they felt I needed it

I really don't know the purpose of this post, but it really makes me want to leave the forum and go elsewhere where they don't assume I am a basket case that the little men in white should come and remove to an institution for the safety of the community at large.

I think in Doc (Matthew) we have a real medical doctor on the forum.

Alan McDougall wrote on Feb 14^th, 2014 at 3:50am:

carl wrote on Feb 14th, 2014 at 1:23am: Come off it guy's. I've been reading Alan posts on his many blogs and websites, over the last decade, of which most are now defunct-deleted. I've also read many of his posts on other Spirituality Forums. He suffers from chronic and acute mental illness, and is on industrial strength psychiatric medication. He told us so in his past posts. So how about giving him a break! Blessing and Love, Carl     You make it sound as if I am insane which I am not, many great men suffered from the bipolar disorder and without them the world would have been much poorer. Industrial strength psychiatrist medication, nonsense!! I am on Epilim and a mild antidepressant medication Venlor and have never been on any anti- psychotic drugs. I have opened only one blog and website in an effort to learn how to use the internet. If you had to post something personal about me on an open forum like this one at least make your information accurate. The great people on this forum have always been kind to me and given me a break if they felt I needed it I really don't know the purpose of this post, but it really makes me want to leave the forum and go elsewhere where they don't assume I am a basket case that the little men in white should come and remove to an institution for the safety of the community at large. I think in Doc (Matthew) we have a real medical doctor on the forum.

Alan said, " I have only opened one blog and website in an effort how to learn to use the internet."

A downright lie!! I've read many posts from you that you have posted on blogs and websites you created over the last ten years and before which you have now deleted.

I have also read many of your mentally dysfunctional posts that you have posted on other peoples forum/websites and groups.

So lets cut to the chase. Here's another post of yours in a science forum just last month, January 2014. You got no replies! Don't lie and treat me like a fool and idiot! Blessings and Love. Carl

http://www.scienceforums.net/topic/81247-a-hypothetical-warning-from-planet-earth-to-humanity/ ;

 

Carl,

Your personal medical or psychiatric history is no business of mine.  If you were arrested or a bully in kindergarten, I am not interested in that either.  The same with any poster on this forum.

I take anyone's posting for what it says.  If I am not interested in it or have nothing to add, I let it go.  Why not live and let live?  If a post is inappropriate, you can bring that up or use the moderator feedback system. 

Alan, you should be honored that Carl follows you with such groupie-like zeal; it appears he is your number one fan. 

Carl, I am not sure how making it personal will help the discussions on the forum. 

Matthew

carl wrote on Feb 14^th, 2014 at 5:22am:

Alan McDougall wrote on Feb 14th, 2014 at 3:50am: carl wrote on Feb 14th, 2014 at 1:23am: Come off it guy's. I've been reading Alan posts on his many blogs and websites, over the last decade, of which most are now defunct-deleted. I've also read many of his posts on other Spirituality Forums. He suffers from chronic and acute mental illness, and is on industrial strength psychiatric medication. He told us so in his past posts. So how about giving him a break! Blessing and Love, Carl     You make it sound as if I am insane which I am not, many great men suffered from the bipolar disorder and without them the world would have been much poorer. Industrial strength psychiatrist medication, nonsense!! I am on Epilim and a mild antidepressant medication Venlor and have never been on any anti- psychotic drugs. I have opened only one blog and website in an effort to learn how to use the internet. If you had to post something personal about me on an open forum like this one at least make your information accurate. The great people on this forum have always been kind to me and given me a break if they felt I needed it I really don't know the purpose of this post, but it really makes me want to leave the forum and go elsewhere where they don't assume I am a basket case that the little men in white should come and remove to an institution for the safety of the community at large. I think in Doc (Matthew) we have a real medical doctor on the forum. Alan said, " I have only opened one blog and website in an effort how to learn to use the internet." A downright lie!! I've read many posts from you that you have posted on blogs and websites you created over the last ten years and before which you have now deleted. I have also read many of your mentally dysfunctional posts that you have posted on other peoples forum/websites and groups. [http://afterlife-knowledge.com/yabbfiles/Templates/Forum/default/bold.gifs] [b]So lets cut to the chase. Here's another post of yours in a science forum just last month, January 2014. You got no replies! Don't lie and treat me like a fool and idiot! Blessings and Love. Carl

In my opinion you are the hurtful liar here, you end your posts with "Blessings and Love" but you are full of spite hate and out to catch other people in their frailties.

And Matthew is right, why did you follow an obvious madman like me, all over the internet for a full decade, it makes me think you should join me next time I am confined to the nuthouse.

Anyway until you leave this forum or are booted off I don't have to take personal insults from a person like you who appears to just want to disrupt an otherwise friendly forum.

I made a bad mistake when I  posted about my 30 year battle with manic depression on the internet. This debilitating ailment almost cost me my family, my job and my life due to suicide.

The reason I put the history of my suffering due to manic depression is because I wanted to help others who suffered like me from this appalling malady also. Again it was an obvious bad error on my part, which I cannot take back and now I have to deal with vultures like you who try to eat the flesh off my my psyche.

The people on this forum who have known me for many years now, are aware of my bipolar illness, because I have posted it here years ago. Like most of us who are interested in the mystical, unexplained and the afterlife, we are all a little odd or crazy.

Of course you carl must be perfectly balanced in every sense, satisfied with your state of being, one that has never ever told even the tiniest white fib, this perplexes me as to why you haunt spiritual based forums?

Guys let me know when this unpleasant excuse for a human being has left the forum or has been booted off and I will come back and hopefully engage in meaningful dialogue with the rest of you, nice people!

[b]
I admit before man and God that I am an imperfect being, not like carl who is perfect in every way![/b]

Until then goodby

God Bless

Alan

Ten years is long pursuit.

DocM wrote on Feb 14^th, 2014 at 7:42am:

Carl, Your personal medical or psychiatric history is no business of mine.  If you were arrested or a bully in kindergarten, I am not interested in that either.  The same with any poster on this forum. I take anyone's posting for what it says.  If I am not interested in it or have nothing to add, I let it go.  Why not live and let live?  If a post is inappropriate, you can bring that up or use the moderator feedback system.  Alan, you should be honored that Carl follows you with such groupie-like zeal; it appears he is your number one fan.  Carl, I am not sure how making it personal will help the discussions on the forum.  Matthew

OK, DocM or Matthew, or Compassionate Buddha. How about telling us what hospital or Clinic, or Private Practice, you work in? I can guarantee you your contract or practice will be terminated or sued for malpractice! Don't forget to tell all that you are a member-poster of this forum. Your intellectual-ego, "I'm a medico", so I know more than you does not wash with me. Try impressing others, especially those on this forum who put people with tertiary degrees on a pedestal! Blessing and Love in Christ. Carl       

1796 wrote on Feb 14^th, 2014 at 10:17am:

Ten years is long pursuit.

Gidday' Cobber. Well mate, the footy season is soon upon us bludgers. I haven't got a clue who you support, but I'm sure you'll be sitting in front of the old telly, with your mutt at your feet, watching the magpies ripping the arse off the dockers. I hope that slab of VB tinnies you're  throwing back down your pipe goes down well. A couple of foils of Mullimbimby Madness always helps the pain of a loss. Fair suck of the Bishops donga! Don't flog yourself too much Blue! Blessings and Love in Christ. Carl         

carl wrote on Feb 16^th, 2014 at 1:43am:

1796 wrote on Feb 14th, 2014 at 10:17am: Ten years is long pursuit. Gidday' Cobber. Well mate, the footy season is soon upon us bludgers. I haven't got a clue who you support, but I'm sure you'll be sitting in front of the old telly, with your mutt at your feet, watching the magpies ripping the arse off the dockers. I hope that slab of VB tinnies you're  throwing back down your pipe goes down well. A couple of foils of Mullimbimby Madness always helps the pain of a loss. Fair suck of the Bishops donga! Don't flog yourself too much Blue! Blessings and Love in Christ. Carl

he he he, that's such a good take-off Carl. So funny I keep reading it over and over and nearly pissing myself laughing every time. I don't know if the yanks on this site would get all of it but its bloody funny for me. I'm not a footy fan myself but it sure reminds me of some mates, and some sheilas too. I can imagine you amongst 'em Carl, all taking the piss out of each other; you'd be in your element.   

Carl,

You are posting as a mean disparaging bully.  Why on earth would anyone want you involved with their private or work lives?  Anyone who reads through my posts know I never say that what I share is "better" or more correct because I am a physician.  And the irony is - no the stupidity of it all is, that you want me to publish my place of location and employment history, which if done would some how make a difference in my posts (to you it might, but to no one else).  As if anyone in their right mind would give that information to someone who likes to harrass, like yourself. 

I have contacted several members of this forum, and they know who I am (name, location, medical practice, etc.).  Kathy and others know me, and can vouch for who I am.  But, Carl, you have no business prying into anyone's personal life.  That includes Alan, myself, or any of the posters here.  Your attack on his past medical problems, and really all of your posts are usually mocking or disparaging, and have nothing to do with the topic of discussion.  Think about it.  The title of this thread is "the enigma of evil in the garden of Eden."  What did Carl have to say about it?  Nothing - unless you want to show everyone what "evil" is about in your posts.  A disparaging remark about Alan, myself, 1796.....

And where does it get you?  Nowhere.  It seems you seek simply to stifle the conversation, nothing more.  And, in the end, you will likely keep up your trolling until you are moderated out of the discussion.  Gee, that is a wonderful use of your free time. 

M

But, but, but DocM, he's just a bad "boxer"...give him a little time to practice and maybe he'll "wow" everyone and get some applause for a change.

No difference, really. Fists or words. Isn't it obvious that he's just having a little fun?

(not to disparage either one of you, but the point needed to be made)

DocM wrote on Feb 16^th, 2014 at 10:20am:

Carl, You are posting as a mean disparaging bully.  Why on earth would anyone want you involved with their private or work lives?  Anyone who reads through my posts know I never say that what I share is "better" or more correct because I am a physician.  And the irony is - no the stupidity of it all is, that you want me to publish my place of location and employment history, which if done would some how make a difference in my posts (to you it might, but to no one else).  As if anyone in their right mind would give that information to someone who likes to harrass, like yourself.  I have contacted several members of this forum, and they know who I am (name, location, medical practice, etc.).  Kathy and others know me, and can vouch for who I am.  But, Carl, you have no business prying into anyone's personal life.  That includes Alan, myself, or any of the posters here.  Your attack on his past medical problems, and really all of your posts are usually mocking or disparaging, and have nothing to do with the topic of discussion.  Think about it.  The title of this thread is "the enigma of evil in the garden of Eden."  What did Carl have to say about it?  Nothing - unless you want to show everyone what "evil" is about in your posts.  A disparaging remark about Alan, myself, 1796..... And where does it get you?  Nowhere.  It seems you seek simply to stifle the conversation, nothing more.  And, in the end, you will likely keep up your trolling until you are moderated out of the discussion.  Gee, that is a wonderful use of your free time.  M

Hi Matthew

This hypocrite, something that Christ himself Despised, ends his posts like this "Blessings and love in Christ carl"

If he is an example of the teaching of Christ, then we should be warned not to follow it!

carl makes me sick, and the less I have to do with this hypocrite the better. I will stay on the forum, because other than him, members don't go around calling each other liars, and putting doubt of the integrity of long time members into other members minds, on this "otherwise" forum of friendly and productive members, who are open to learn something from each other, without condemnation we find in religious fundamental fanatics.

He can now post what he likes, I will just ignore it as spiteful nonsense!

All the best!

Alan

Glad you decided to stay, Alan.

Any time you are in the mood for a remote viewing, feel free to look me up!

R

seagull wrote on Feb 16^th, 2014 at 10:34am:

But, but, but DocM, he's just a bad "boxer"...give him a little time to practice and maybe he'll "wow" everyone and get some applause for a change. No difference, really. Fists or words. Isn't it obvious that he's just having a little fun? (not to disparage either one of you, but the point needed to be made)

Are you talking about Carl or Alan?