Hi everybody,

It's been quite some time since I last posted here. I have been posting on some other forums and worked my way around on my own website, optimized it for mobile use.

I would like to bring your attention to a topic on my forum that has been produced by a member of my forum and myself.
This member, Margriet, is an expert in the books of Jozef Rulof, but her english is quite poor. So she supplied the content and I did the translation.

It's called: Fallen Angels ??.
I really wanted to bring your attention to this topic because it has been an eye-opener to me and I hope it will be of any use for the members and visitors of this board too.

It's basically about: knowledge and conscious that has once been achieved cannot go lost.
Fallen angels do not exist. Moving higher in the spheres of light is only limited by your lowest character traits. That is what holds you from moving higher.

This may sound not so much as a surprise to some of you, but the interesting thing about it is that people who have reached a sphere of light and THEN are reincarnated on earth again to fullfill a task, to serve, that those people once they die and go back to the afterlife may end up in a LOWER sphere then where they left from.

This is caused by the confrontation with their lower character traits while on earth. Such traits, like chasing women, arrogance and so on, may cause those people to forget themselves and cause them to end up in a lower sphere in the afterlife once they go back there then if they had stayed overthere.

There is much more to say about it, but Margriet has written an excellent article about it with a lot of quotes from the books of Rulof, especially from 'The Origin of the Universe'.

I hope you will enjoy reading it. Like I said, translation was done by me, and my english is not that fluent either, but I trust things will be clear enough to get the picture.

If you have any questions, like to comment, please don't hesitate. That's what forums are for.


Regards,
Mogenblue / Frits

Hello, Mogenblue,

I'm a bit confused.  It seems to me that you are saying, at first, that once a position of soul is abtained, we can't go back.  But then, it seems to me that you are saying if we reincarnate and fail in that lifetime, we fall back, like the game of Shoots and Ladders where the higher you go the futher down you can fall.  Am I mistaken in this assumption?  I have not read the books you are talking about, so have nothing to contribute there.  I am curious though.

Wishing you well,
Baroness T'ressa

Baroness wrote on Dec 2^nd, 2013 at 5:31am:

Hello, Mogenblue, I'm a bit confused.  It seems to me that you are saying, at first, that once a position of soul is abtained, we can't go back.  But then, it seems to me that you are saying if we reincarnate and fail in that lifetime, we fall back, like the game of Shoots and Ladders where the higher you go the futher down you can fall.  Am I mistaken in this assumption?  I have not read the books you are talking about, so have nothing to contribute there.  I am curious though. Wishing you well, Baroness T'ressa

Hi T'ressa,

Yes, you are mistaken. It's definately not the higher you go, the deeper you fall.

Consciousness that you have built up in previous incarnations will never go lost. But you still have character traits that are not all of the same level.
Your personality is a bundle of character traits and all of them are in different stages of development.

When you enter the afterlife and reach a certain sphere of light you make that your own. But usually when you have done that you still have some character traits that are of a lower attunement then what belongs to that sphere. If you don't confront yourself with those aspects of yourself they stay with you and they block you from moving higher.

So, when you reincarnate on earth again, to fullfill a task or something, or to serve, or whatever, then you are among people of all different levels of attunement. Then it is easier and more inevitable that you will be confronted with those lower character traits.
And if you then live it up and forget yourself the consequence of that will be that after that life you will end up in a lower sphere then from where you left on your mission to earth.
But the knowledge and consciousness that you have gained is not lost. You have obscured the light of the higher spheres by your irresponsible behavior. And you need then to work on that to get it back. So that makes it very much a matter of falling and standing up again. Step by step you overcome your lower character traits until you finally have overcome them all.

It's up to the knowledge and consciousness that you have built up in previous incarnations how deep you allow yourself to sink. So it's all in your own hands.
Higher masters of light have gained so much conscious that they don't make such mistakes anymore. They have overcome all those lower character traits, by experience.

You should read the topic to which I provided the link in the first post. It will make it much clearer to you. It's pretty long, but it's worth all the time. It will make much clear to you. I hope.
It's good reading stuff for the dark winter days. ;)


Mogenblue

Morgenblue,

Some of my experiences recount similar information in my fourth book, Voyage to Curiosity's Father.  In the chapter about "Fires of Hell" there is discussion about the choices available to those who are assisted out of a Belief System Territory Hell. 

These are people who have lived their lives in a way that their "lower nature" may attract them into one of those into after death.  One their possible choices is to incarnate again and attempt to overcome that part of their lower nature.  Sometimes the Helper or Helpers who retrieved the person from their hell will incarnate with them to provide assistance and guidance during that incarnation.

Taking the choice to incarnate (for the former hell dweller) carries the risk that this person may over indulge in their lower nature traits to a greater extent than in the previous incarnation.  This in turn may lead that person back into the hell they were retrieved from in a worse situation.

In all cases that I've explored there is a sure fire way to avoid this.  That is to focus on experiencing and expressing unconditional love to an ever greater degree.

Nice to see someone else's experience match mine.

Bruce

Bruce Moen wrote on Dec 2^nd, 2013 at 6:08pm:

Taking the choice to incarnate (for the former hell dweller) carries the risk that this person may over indulge in their lower nature traits to a greater extent than in the previous incarnation.  This in turn may lead that person back into the hell they were retrieved from in a worse situation.

Hello Bruce,
Yes, that is the problem with free will. People DO have that. And once they are back on earth again they remember nothing anymore of their time in hell. So they might even feel a sense of happiness of being back on earth again which could 'urge' them to forget themselves again.
But when things should go wrong those people at least have that experience to add to their inner archive as well. It's bad of course for the people they might have harmed in that life, but things like that may happen.


Bruce Moen wrote on Dec 2^nd, 2013 at 6:08pm:

In all cases that I've explored there is a sure fire way to avoid this.  That is to focus on experiencing and expressing unconditional love to an ever greater degree.

I agree. That is what those people should focus on.
Today we have learned much more about who we are and what choices we have. That was more difficult say 50 or 100 years ago. Back then the church would threaten you with doom and eternal hell if you did not comply to their standards. That didn't make things much better. Assuming you were connected with that church of course.


Bruce Moen wrote on Dec 2^nd, 2013 at 6:08pm:

Nice to see someone else's experience match mine. Bruce

Yes, it's nice if experiences from various explorers match.
It does give a little more confidence :)

When you use your free common sense it does make sense like that. But of course such people still have to do it.
Such helpers that incarnate with them are not in for an easy life either, I guess.


Mogenblue

I feel the need to interject here (for those new to these discussions), that there are some fundamental flaws with the thinking about heavens and hells which should not be taken for granted. 

1.  A heaven or hell is a sphere of consciousness best attuned to the person's mind when they let go of their body.  As such, many people in a hell or heaven find it quite natural to exist there.  The idea that anyone is sent to a hell, or judged by an external deity or force, and forced into a hell, is totally and completely without merit. 

Along these lines, as Bruce has stated along with other explorers, you are free to make choices.  This is why there are helpers, and spiritual beings who try to assist along the way.  Since the gates of hell are open, it is only the individual person who locks their own door from the inside.  As such, a person can leave a hell, if they can truly gain true emotional/spiritual insight into their behavior, and by doing so move willingly toward love (and God, the foundation of love).

Some on this board feel that reincarnation is inevitable. This has been hotly debated in the past.  I believe that stays in any focus levels (heaven or hell) are very varied and not at all mandated by an outside faction.  In fact, if a person is in a hellish or unloving plane and quite content there, why would they choose to reincarnate on earth at all?  Unless there is some earthly lust that pulls them into the earth plane willingly. 

2.  There is a tiresome idea that we all are guided by a group of saintly elders to keep reincarnating on the earth plane till we "get it right."  Of course this is silly, as consciousness is beyond right and wrong, and though the earth plane is a place where people of all levels of love interact on an equal footing, and one can make quick spiritual progress, a person's mind can evolve on any plane.  There are, therefore multiple routes one could take in a heaven or hell. 

Mogen brings up an interesting question which is, what if a person moves toward love, but certain personality aspects pull them down toward baser hateful thought?  I would say this; again, the person is a conscious divine being.  They will follow whatever their true nature is centered.  Minor peccadillos will not impede a person's overall path.  A person may always choose.  And they can, at any point change their mind. 

These baser thoughts are tied up with our earthly egos, which serve to protect us and need to be shed prior to moving on deeper into expressing love.  In order for love to be pure and unconditional, it needs to be free of the ego.  But none of our egos will be dismissed without a fight.  True enlightenment is freeing oneself from the fear and desires our egos set upon us, and getting to the state of clear calm perception, which is our most basic empowered state of being. 

It is terrifying to think that we better watch what we do while incarnate, or we will end up in a hellish afterlife.  I discourage this kind of thinking, as it is fear based.  Consciousness is more of an evolving state of perception, whether we are alive on earth, or in the afterlife after the physical body is shed.  Our circumstance, either in the physical world, or in an afterlife plane usually mirrors our conscious state and thought. 


Matthew

Hi Doc,

Thank you very much for your interesting reply.
There are actually two things on which I would like to respond. On the others I agree with you without further comment.


DocM wrote on Dec 3^rd, 2013 at 11:55pm:

2.  There is a tiresome idea that we all are guided by a group of saintly elders to keep reincarnating on the earth plane till we "get it right."  Of course this is silly, as consciousness is beyond right and wrong, and though the earth plane is a place where people of all levels of love interact on an equal footing, and one can make quick spiritual progress, a person's mind can evolve on any plane.  There are, therefore multiple routes one could take in a heaven or hell.

I agree that we are not guided by some group of saintly elders to keep reincarnating on earth. From what I have learned from Rulofs books this is certainly not in the hands of any kind of human being whatever level they may have achieved. Reincarnation on earth...
I think it is actually driven by the Divine Being of God self.
There are many laws that are specific for this planet and those things need to be learned for any human being. These things have been created by God and thus the enforcement of such things also lies with God self. Human beings simply don't have the powers, the CONSCIOUS, to handle that.

On the other hand there is a clear structure in the spheres in the afterlife. There are ascending higher spheres and descending lower spheres. Seven of each in total, but these are the main spheres. There are thousands and thousands of subspheres. A sphere is a representation of a conscious.

There is only one way to evolve higher in the spheres in the afterlife: by serving and loving other people, the life of God.

From what I have learned some spirits that have evolved in love and consciousness have taken it upon them to help beings that are not that far themselves. They do have a kind of organized structure and this is aimed towards serving other people. But as said before, such spirits have nothing to say at all about laws of reincarnation. These things go beyond their understanding and they bow their heads for the working and love of God.


DocM wrote on Dec 3^rd, 2013 at 11:55pm:

It is terrifying to think that we better watch what we do while incarnate, or we will end up in a hellish afterlife.

I think it is not terrifying at all. I think it is more realistic to think that if you act irresponsible, if you live it up and don't care for anything or anybody, that you should not expect to end up in a sphere of light.

Also, depending on the nature of your past life you don't need to end up in a 'firish' hell.
A very detailed description of the dark spheres has been given in the first book of Jozef Rulof: A View into the Hereafter. This is an introductory book and as such free available in pdf format on the internet. You will find a link to this book in my signature.
So I will not go into discussion of lower spheres and so.


Mogenblue

Quote:

"In all cases that I've explored there is a sure fire way to avoid this. That is to focus on experiencing and expressing unconditional love to an ever greater degree."

Bruce, you recently expressed unCarlditional love. Was this a decision based on the lower part of your nature?


Quote:

"Today we have learned much more about who we are and what choices we have. That was more difficult say 50 or 100 years ago. Back then the church would threaten you with doom and eternal hell if you did not comply to their standards. That didn't make things much better. Assuming you were connected with that church of course."

Mogenblue, the last time you were around you wrote that comitting suicide was breaking the law of your god, and that one put oneself into the suffering of having to feel the decay of the physical body because one remains attached to it through the silver cord. That's not the church of 50 or 100 years ago, but the dark ages.


Quote:

"I agree that we are not guided by some group of saintly elders to keep reincarnating on earth. From what I have learned from Rulofs books this is certainly not in the hands of any kind of human being whatever level they may have achieved."

From what I've learned from Dr. Seuss' books, you can get help from teachers, but you are going to have to learn a lot by yourself, sitting alone in a room. You have brains in your head. You have feet in your shoes. You can steer yourself in any direction you choose. You're on your own, and you know what you know. And you are the guy who'll decide where to go.

Then again, a lot of stuff is written by a lot of different people.


Quote:

"Human beings simply don't have the powers, the CONSCIOUS, to handle that."

The life forces animating us temporary sock puppets aren't human, but are having human experiences. Following the silver cords will reveal our beings beyond the flesh. At the end (or beginning) of the cords are beings with a lot of non-physical cords, and they are indeed the sole decision makers regarding incarnations.


Quote:

"There is only one way to evolve higher in the spheres in the afterlife: by serving and loving other people, the life of God."

I've decided that you're allowed to serve and love me right now. Consider yourself lucky as there is no need to wait for the afterlife to do this. Oh, happy to both give and present this opportunity for you to evolve higher. And, you're welcome. :)

wrote on Dec 4^th, 2013 at 12:17pm:

I've decided that you're allowed to serve and love me right now. Consider yourself lucky as there is no need to wait for the afterlife to do this. Oh, happy to both give and present this opportunity for you to evolve higher. And, you're welcome. :)

Funny as ever. Hardly more intelligent then before.
(trying not say: just as stupid as before)


Mogy

Mogen,

Bob is funny, and a fierce believer in our independent right to go our own way.  What I was trying to say before is that some concentrate on the structures of heavens, hells, the power of helpers and their "all-knowing" advice, etc. and so they see life and consciousness in a fear based way. 

The idea of higher planes of graduation, as if consciousness is a grade-school activity where we pass or fail does not ring true to me.  There are different planes (really probably uncountable) corresponding to different levels of consciousness and love.  But the idea that we have to "get it right" to express our love or go back to the drawing board is somewhat maddening, and authoritarian.  It also shows a lack of understanding of what consciousness is.

Consciousness simply is what it is. And yes, love is the underlying force behind all of us, and if we rid ourselves of ego, and get in touch with it, we "evolve" toward love (and God).

I prefer to explore on my own, to experience life/consciousness as it is, and to try to learn.  I will take help, if offered, but like Bob, will not be dictated to from "masters of light", etc. what to do in my own experience of it all. 

M

Quote:

Funny as ever. Hardly more intelligent then before. (trying not say: just as stupid as before)

Mogy, this is caused by the confrontation with their lower character traits while on earth. Such traits, like chasing women, arrogance and so on, may cause those people to forget themselves and cause them to end up in a lower sphere in the afterlife once they go back there then if they had stayed overthere.

http://goo.gl/zRhM5d

DocM wrote on Dec 4^th, 2013 at 1:18pm:

I will take help, if offered, but like Bob, will not be dictated to from "masters of light", etc. what to do in my own experience of it all.

I have had help from spiritual guides in the past. I think those are masters of light. I never experienced their help as dictations.

I am always free to go my own way. They understand all too well the need for me to go my own way and live my life in my own way. Because that is the only way I can learn. I would learn nothing if they would 'dictate' me what to do and what not.
Experiencing life is they way you gain wisdom. By internalizing that wisdom you gain love. Love translates into light.

Masters of Light are people like you and me who have overcome their lower character traits by experience. By falling and standing up again, time and again, until they finally managed to overcome them all. Is there anything wrong with that?

So if you don't accept help from masters of light or beings of light, then who do you accept your help from?



Mogenblue

I've read many NDEs where a person didn't want to return to this World, even if this person was quite Worldly before having the experience. This being the case, why would such a person (Soul) want to return many times?

There is also the factor of how Souls can learn from other Souls that have incarnated (lessons and knowledge can be shared). This makes it so each Soul doesn't have to incarnate numerous times in order to learn whatever it is that needs to be learned.

The main thing a Soul needs to do is choose a path that is based on love.  Once it does so, is it necessary to keep reincarnting?

Say a Soul ends up in a lower realm after its death. At some point it decides to move towards the light and live according to love. Does it need to incarnate again in order to tread the path of love, or can it also learn about love while in the World of spirit? It seems to me that many NDErs learn about love while in the World of spirit.

As some of you know, there are contradictory reports of how the spirit World operates.  This is the case even when each conflicting source of information seems to be legit. This being the case, could there be occasions when people are provided with information that doesn't represent the absolute truth, but might be helpful to some people? The spirit beings who provide information take into account the kind of information that will be beneficial to some people.

For example, they realize that some people have been feared into believing that if you don't believe and act according to a particular religion, you'll end up in a firey hell for all of eternity. Not only does this cause some people to be influenced in a negative way while here in the World, it might affect what they experience after they die.

Say the Swedenborg/Moen like lower realm viewpoint isn't true, rather, it is more of a matter of a Soul ending up in an isolated state for a while until it is able to move on towards a higher way of being. This is in line with what one of Bruce's exploration partner found when she had a look at what happens to people who did negative  things.  Paul Elder's book "Eyes of an Angel" provides a similar description. So do some NDErs.

If you try to tell a person who believes in the firery hell viewpoint about the Paul Elder like viewpoint, it might be too much for such a person to accept. They might conclude that such a viewpoint comes from Satan.  If you instead provide them with a Moen/Swedenborg like explanation, you might have better luck freeing them from the eternal firey hell viewpoint.

Here's another factor. I read (or listened to) a number of NDEs where an experiencer first experienced a hell like realm (each in his own unique way), at some point asked for help, received it, and then moved onto a much nicer place. Some of them would go through a life review/cleansing process that to some degree is similar to what Sylvia (the lady Bruce wrote about) experienced. My guess is that Sylvia didn't have to reincarnate again in order advance.   

I don't mean to come to a definite conclusion here. I'm just bringing up possibilities.

Perhaps things are set up so it "isn't" incredibly difficult for a Soul to find its way back to towards the light. A Soul just simpy needs to see that love is the most positive way available and be willing to let go of some false beliefs.

Mogen,

If you read my post, I did mention that I am open to help.  I just don't think we need to place our faith in anything other than love and our own experience.  I guess what I am trying to say, is that when talks come about hellish realms and masters of life, it leads some among us to take a fear-based approach - i.e.  "I must do what the masters of light suggest to avoid the pits of hell."

So who do I rely on for help?  Myself, along with whatever helpers make sense to me at the time.  At our core, we are connected to God.  We all can, with clarity get in touch with our core and tap our own intuition to know what path is right for us.  If a master of light showed me several paths to go down, I would listen carefully, but ultimately I would decide, as I do in life. 

How can light or love be mastered?  It can not.  If one is ascended in love, usually one needs to label like that and seeks no recognition for achieving nirvana.  Because to be evolved in love means to give up on the ego-gratifying process of being called a master.


M

DocM wrote on Dec 4^th, 2013 at 2:58pm:

"I must do what the masters of light suggest to avoid the pits of hell."

Those are your words. Not mine.

Could you give some examples of original dictates by masters of light that you have encountered?
And can you also provide the sources where you have them from, like book title and so?


Mogenblue

Hello Recoverer,


recoverer wrote on Dec 4^th, 2013 at 2:48pm:

I've read many NDEs where a person didn't want to return to this World, even if this person was quite Worldly before having the experience. This being the case, why would such a person (Soul) want to return many times?

I don't think a soul always has a free choice whether to incarnate or not. I think God has laid out a path for all of us and we need to follow that to once reunite with God consciously. This implies that we will incarnate whether we like it or not.

Once you have learned all you need to know here on earth it is obvious you don't need to come back here anymore. God will not make you do silly unnecessary things. That is not what I believe.


recoverer wrote on Dec 4^th, 2013 at 2:48pm:

The main thing a Soul needs to do is choose a path that is based on love.  Once it does so, is it necessary to keep reincarnting?

If God would find a way for you to develop even further in light and love then you are now and would want you to incarnate on a different more evolved planet then earth for that. What would you think about that?


recoverer wrote on Dec 4^th, 2013 at 2:48pm:

Perhaps things are set up so it "isn't" incredibly difficult for a Soul to find its way back to towards the light. A Soul just simpy needs to see that love is the most positive way available and be willing to let go of some false beliefs.

Yes, 'be willing to let go of some false beliefs'.
I think you need experience to accurately discern between good and false beliefs.
Experience is what makes you internalize wisdom. That is how you make it your own.



Mogenblue

Mogen,

I met a master of light on Broadway the other day, and I swear, he said "do it my way, or you go to the pit of hell!"  Well, that didn't sit well with me.  (sorry, just kidding)

I have had my own experiences with the world of spirits and helpers.  The worst thing anyone could do in a conversation with me would be to quote a passage from, oh let's say Seth, or A Course in Miracles, or Rulof, as if that is a gold standard of truth. 

Emanuel Swedenborg gave one of the most objective descriptions of heaven and hell I have ever read, and yet, he, Rulof and others simply wrote things down as they saw and understood them - their descriptions were naturally colored by their perception and beliefs (as with all of us).  So, I am interested in reading the descriptions of others like ES or Rulof, but not to take them as "the truth,"  the real truth will come from my pure perception of my own explorations (that is where all of our truth comes from, or wisdom as you mention). 


M

Doc said: "Mogen brings up an interesting question which is, what if a person moves toward love, but certain personality aspects pull them down toward baser hateful thought?  I would say this; again, the person is a conscious divine being.  They will follow whatever their true nature is centered.  Minor peccadillos will not impede a person's overall path.  A person may always choose.  And they can, at any point change their mind. 

These baser thoughts are tied up with our earthly egos, which serve to protect us and need to be shed prior to moving on deeper into expressing love.  In order for love to be pure and unconditional, it needs to be free of the ego.  But none of our egos will be dismissed without a fight.  True enlightenment is freeing oneself from the fear and desires our egos set upon us, and getting to the state of clear calm perception, which is our most basic empowered state of being."

Recoverer responds: I wonder what it takes to become free of lower urges.  While in a body I experience divine love etc fairly often, yet I still have body-based desires.

Consider women I find attractive. Intellectually I understand that the image my mind forms when I look at a woman doesn't represent what a woman's body actually is (e.g., a bunch of biochemical reactions) or what a lady's Soul is, but yet I still find women attractive.

It is possible that my biological brain is partly responsible for this. It is wired so I find women attractive. To what extent will this continue after my body dies and I rejoin the spirit World? Some NDErs state that the illusions created by the physical body go away shortly after they leave their body.  They no longer find bodies attractive.

On the other hand, consider what Carl Wickland and his wife Anna found. According to what they reported in "Thirty Years Among the Dead," a lot of Earthbound spirits that don't move onto the light possess people.  They do so for various false ideas, attachments etc.

For more than thirty years the Wickland's would help people that were possessed by allowing the possessing spirits to take control of and speak through Anna's body, and then Carl would speak to the spirit until it overcame its confusion and moved on towards the light.

If what the Wickland's report is true (they had a lot of confirmations), how does this relate to lower realms? Do former alcholics go to an alchoholics hell, attach to an alchoholic who is alive, or either?

A PDF file of "Thirty Years Among the Dead" is available on the internet.  Check out the chapter called "Theosophy." The spirits who speak through Anna say that reincarnation is not a true idea and it has caused a lot of just deceased people to possess people because such deceased people believe that they must try to reincarnate after they die.  Perhaps this is what happened with the case studies Ian Stevenson made.

Hello Mogenblue:

My responses are within double brackets.


Mogenblue wrote on Dec 4^th, 2013 at 3:24pm:

Hello Recoverer, recoverer wrote on Dec 4th, 2013 at 2:48pm: I've read many NDEs where a person didn't want to return to this World, even if this person was quite Worldly before having the experience. This being the case, why would such a person (Soul) want to return many times? I don't think a soul always has a free choice whether to incarnate or not. I think God has laid out a path for all of us and we need to follow that to once reunite with God consciously. This implies that we will incarnate whether we like it or not. Once you have learned all you need to know here on earth it is obvious you don't need to come back here anymore. God will not make you do silly unnecessary things. That is not what I believe. [I basically believe that I am one of many projections of a higher self/soul group complex.  It isn't necessary for projections to incarnate numerous times. Rather, a teamwork effort takes place.] recoverer wrote on Dec 4th, 2013 at 2:48pm: The main thing a Soul needs to do is choose a path that is based on love.  Once it does so, is it necessary to keep reincarnting? If God would find a way for you to develop even further in light and love then you are now and would want you to incarnate on a different more evolved planet then earth for that. What would you think about that? [I'd do what is necessary, but I believe the process relates to what I wrote above.] recoverer wrote on Dec 4th, 2013 at 2:48pm: Perhaps things are set up so it "isn't" incredibly difficult for a Soul to find its way back to towards the light. A Soul just simpy needs to see that love is the most positive way available and be willing to let go of some false beliefs. Yes, 'be willing to let go of some false beliefs'. I think you need experience to accurately discern between good and false beliefs. Experience is what makes you internalize wisdom. That is how you make it your own. [I agree that some things usually need to be experienced before a person is able to understand what is in line with truth.  I believe that I share my wisdom and experiences with my higher self/soul group complex.] Mogenblue

DocM wrote on Dec 4^th, 2013 at 3:42pm:

I have had my own experiences with the world of spirits and helpers.  The worst thing anyone could do in a conversation with me would be to quote a passage from, oh let's say Seth, or A Course in Miracles, or Rulof, as if that is a gold standard of truth.

Great.
Let me make it even worse for you.
In the book Those who came back from the Dead the story is told of someone who mocked what he did not understand. That is the third story of that book. It's about Gerhard, a coachman.

If you would care to read this description you can clearly see how desperately I am trying to make you even more afraid of what those masters of light from Rulof are trying to tell you.....................

In your eyes I must be giving you the ultimate confirmation of the dictates from masters of light to listen to them or else.......



Have a good day,
Mogenblue
hahaha!!  :D

Thanks for making my point for me, Mogen.  Stories in a book about a horrible outcome if you do not follow the masters' way lets everyone on the board know perfectly what the score is...

Loving people are beyond ego.  They wouldn't generally require recognition or call themselves "masters."  Actually, most helpers would see themselves more as "servants" and realize that people have to come to understand love on their own.       

M

DocM wrote on Dec 5^th, 2013 at 8:33am:

Loving people are beyond ego.  They wouldn't generally require recognition or call themselves "masters."  Actually, most helpers would see themselves more as "servants" and realize that people have to come to understand love on their own.

Doc, would you mind reading the bottom line of my signature?
It's from one of the books by JR.

recoverer wrote on Dec 4^th, 2013 at 4:11pm:

Doc said: "Mogen brings up an interesting question which is, what if a person moves toward love, but certain personality aspects pull them down toward baser hateful thought?  I would say this; again, the person is a conscious divine being.  They will follow whatever their true nature is centered.  Minor peccadillos will not impede a person's overall path.  A person may always choose.  And they can, at any point change their mind.  These baser thoughts are tied up with our earthly egos, which serve to protect us and need to be shed prior to moving on deeper into expressing love.  In order for love to be pure and unconditional, it needs to be free of the ego.  But none of our egos will be dismissed without a fight.  True enlightenment is freeing oneself from the fear and desires our egos set upon us, and getting to the state of clear calm perception, which is our most basic empowered state of being." Recoverer responds: I wonder what it takes to become free of lower urges.  While in a body I experience divine love etc fairly often, yet I still have body-based desires. Consider women I find attractive. Intellectually I understand that the image my mind forms when I look at a woman doesn't represent what a woman's body actually is (e.g., a bunch of biochemical reactions) or what a lady's Soul is, but yet I still find women attractive. It is possible that my biological brain is partly responsible for this. It is wired so I find women attractive. To what extent will this continue after my body dies and I rejoin the spirit World? Some NDErs state that the illusions created by the physical body go away shortly after they leave their body.  They no longer find bodies attractive. On the other hand, consider what Carl Wickland and his wife Anna found. According to what they reported in "Thirty Years Among the Dead," a lot of Earthbound spirits that don't move onto the light possess people.  They do so for various false ideas, attachments etc. For more than thirty years the Wickland's would help people that were possessed by allowing the possessing spirits to take control of and speak through Anna's body, and then Carl would speak to the spirit until it overcame its confusion and moved on towards the light. If what the Wickland's report is true (they had a lot of confirmations), how does this relate to lower realms? Do former alcholics go to an alchoholics hell, attach to an alchoholic who is alive, or either? A PDF file of "Thirty Years Among the Dead" is available on the internet.  Check out the chapter called "Theosophy." The spirits who speak through Anna say that reincarnation is not a true idea and it has caused a lot of just deceased people to possess people because such deceased people believe that they must try to reincarnate after they die.  Perhaps this is what happened with the case studies Ian Stevenson made.

Hi Albert,

Why people think they need to free themselves from "lower urges" such as finding another person sexually attractive is only a limiting belief.  Humans and all other sentient beings living in the ELS are born with the instinct to survive and procreate.  That is simply the way ELS evolved and will continue to evolve.  It is a part of the ELS consciousness in which we chose to experience.  So, yes one could say that our "brains are wired" to procreate, but there is absolutely nothing innately wrong with that.

I think it is correct that the illusions of the body do dissipate after one no longer has a body unless as mentioned they hold onto the illusions because of an attachment.  It is only when we have an ego attachment where we've become emotionally involved at a lower base of fearful, needy ego that we have problems.  Sex addiction, alcoholism, drug addiction, etc. are all a result of fear and an inability to deal with the fear effectively.  People who use sex, alcohol, drugs to the point of addiction are only seeking relief from fear in which they know of no other way to gain relief from the pain they feel and of course this causes problems in all areas of the life in a continuing downward spiral until they learn how to release the fear and pain in more productive ways.

The only thing we need to free ourselves from is fear.  Period.  End of story!

Consider that each of us is an individualized conscious being where consciousness is simply information that is exchanged between each other and our environment.  If we are sufficiently evolved where we have become love, meaning that we react to our environment motivated by love rather than fear, then we have little or nothing to be concerned about in regards to possession or being influenced by negative beings because a loving being is far more powerful than a negative one.  It's all data, or information because we are consciousness.  We change our state of consciousness at any time for the better or for worse.

As long as we are fearless, and use our intent we do not have to connect to others or allow them to connect to us.  This goes for any type of negativity.  However, as soon as one attaches him/her self to the negativity and becomes emotionally involved, it attaches to you, which then causes you to be more attached and experience more fear, upset, struggle, unpleasant and painful experience, which then causes the negativity to become even more attached to you and you to it like a vicious circle that goes on in an ever increasing downward spiral that traps you in its grip until the energy in it is dissipated.  This is true of an attachment to even a fearful thought you may harbor... it's all information that we react to and we can choose to react either from love or fear.  Love will uplift us, fear will cause a downward spiral and we will remain stuck in the grip of fear until we learn to dissolve the energy within it.  This is true for either here in ELS or in the non-physical because we are individualized consciousness.

Isn't this what a retriever does?  Help someone that is stuck in an emotional fear to let go of the fear so they can move on?

Kathy

Lights of Love wrote on Dec 5^th, 2013 at 11:53am:

The only thing we need to free ourselves from is fear.  Period.  End of story!

So if we don't fear the consequences of what we do everything will be allright...

Hello Kathy, and thank you for taking the time to write your post.

I agree that fear can be a problem, but I believe life is more complicated than that.  Some people might be interested in engaging in sex in order to seek freedom from fear, but sometimes it is simply a matter of finding sex pleasurable. I don't mean just physical pleasure, but also the psychological buzz one gets when sex related chemicals are released within a body.  A man can enjoy looking at an attractive woman even if he doesn't have sex, because doing so provides him with a buzz he can experience.

When I experience divine love I don't experience fear.  When I feel it out, a sex buzz doesn't go along with divine love. They are two different energy levels with quite different mentalities.

People can be attached to sex to different degrees. Some people are porn addicts. Some people are okay with less frequent sexual experiences that aren't as depraved as porn can be.

Going by what I understand, the more one is attached to sex, the less one will be able to live according to divine love because our attachments define us and determine our overall energy level.

My spirit guidance made the point of letting me know that it would be helpful for me to overcome the idea that I need to be with a woman I find sexually attractive in order to be fullfilled. Here's an example experience I had that made this point.

I was in an Out of Body state. I came upon a lady I used to have a crush her. I tried to kiss her but she wouldn't let me. So instead I took off flying in an expanse of love and joy. 

Another experience, I was lying in bed wondering what  it means to be One Self. Suddenly I found myself walking down a city street (not physically).  I was very happy and excited because I understood that everthing is One Self.  I walked up to complete strangers and hugged them and they hugged me back because they also realized that everything is One Self. Then I hugged a lady I found physically attractive and she also found me attractive, and we couldn't experience each other as One Self, because we viewed each other in a man/woman kind of way, rather than as two divine beings.

One night I had a dream where I was in a room filled with people. Jesus was there and people had a really good feeling about him because he had a really nice vibe. He was very happy, humble and down to Earth. My father was there and he didn't like Jesus.  He (my father) represented my egostical/body-based self. Jesus made a pass at a young lady and I knew this was contrary to how he otherwise seemed during this experience.

I believe this dream made the point that if I want to live according to the level of love Jesus lived according to, then I have to grow beyond the man-based tendency of being interested in women in sexual way. Our body-based drives are one thing, our higher self nature is another.

I'm not saying everybody needs to overcome their sex drive while here in this World, but perhaps we can't live according to our higher selves as completely as possible, if we insist on clinging to and identifying with body-based drives.



Lights of Love wrote on Dec 5^th, 2013 at 11:53am:

recoverer wrote on Dec 4th, 2013 at 4:11pm: Doc said: "Mogen brings up an interesting question which is, what if a person moves toward love, but certain personality aspects pull them down toward baser hateful thought?  I would say this; again, the person is a conscious divine being.  They will follow whatever their true nature is centered.  Minor peccadillos will not impede a person's overall path.  A person may always choose.  And they can, at any point change their mind.  These baser thoughts are tied up with our earthly egos, which serve to protect us and need to be shed prior to moving on deeper into expressing love.  In order for love to be pure and unconditional, it needs to be free of the ego.  But none of our egos will be dismissed without a fight.  True enlightenment is freeing oneself from the fear and desires our egos set upon us, and getting to the state of clear calm perception, which is our most basic empowered state of being." Recoverer responds: I wonder what it takes to become free of lower urges.  While in a body I experience divine love etc fairly often, yet I still have body-based desires. Consider women I find attractive. Intellectually I understand that the image my mind forms when I look at a woman doesn't represent what a woman's body actually is (e.g., a bunch of biochemical reactions) or what a lady's Soul is, but yet I still find women attractive. It is possible that my biological brain is partly responsible for this. It is wired so I find women attractive. To what extent will this continue after my body dies and I rejoin the spirit World? Some NDErs state that the illusions created by the physical body go away shortly after they leave their body.  They no longer find bodies attractive. On the other hand, consider what Carl Wickland and his wife Anna found. According to what they reported in "Thirty Years Among the Dead," a lot of Earthbound spirits that don't move onto the light possess people.  They do so for various false ideas, attachments etc. For more than thirty years the Wickland's would help people that were possessed by allowing the possessing spirits to take control of and speak through Anna's body, and then Carl would speak to the spirit until it overcame its confusion and moved on towards the light. If what the Wickland's report is true (they had a lot of confirmations), how does this relate to lower realms? Do former alcholics go to an alchoholics hell, attach to an alchoholic who is alive, or either? A PDF file of "Thirty Years Among the Dead" is available on the internet.  Check out the chapter called "Theosophy." The spirits who speak through Anna say that reincarnation is not a true idea and it has caused a lot of just deceased people to possess people because such deceased people believe that they must try to reincarnate after they die.  Perhaps this is what happened with the case studies Ian Stevenson made. Hi Albert, Why people think they need to free themselves from "lower urges" such as finding another person sexually attractive is only a limiting belief.  Humans and all other sentient beings living in the ELS are born with the instinct to survive and procreate.  That is simply the way ELS evolved and will continue to evolve.  It is a part of the ELS consciousness in which we chose to experience.  So, yes one could say that our "brains are wired" to procreate, but there is absolutely nothing innately wrong with that. I think it is correct that the illusions of the body do dissipate after one no longer has a body unless as mentioned they hold onto the illusions because of an attachment.  It is only when we have an ego attachment where we've become emotionally involved at a lower base of fearful, needy ego that we have problems.  Sex addiction, alcoholism, drug addiction, etc. are all a result of fear and an inability to deal with the fear effectively.  People who use sex, alcohol, drugs to the point of addiction are only seeking relief from fear in which they know of no other way to gain relief from the pain they feel and of course this causes problems in all areas of the life in a continuing downward spiral until they learn how to release the fear and pain in more productive ways. The only thing we need to free ourselves from is fear.  Period.  End of story! Consider that each of us is an individualized conscious being where consciousness is simply information that is exchanged between each other and our environment.  If we are sufficiently evolved where we have become love, meaning that we react to our environment motivated by love rather than fear, then we have little or nothing to be concerned about in regards to possession or being influenced by negative beings because a loving being is far more powerful than a negative one.  It's all data, or information because we are consciousness.  We change our state of consciousness at any time for the better or for worse. As long as we are fearless, and use our intent we do not have to connect to others or allow them to connect to us.  This goes for any type of negativity.  However, as soon as one attaches him/her self to the negativity and becomes emotionally involved, it attaches to you, which then causes you to be more attached and experience more fear, upset, struggle, unpleasant and painful experience, which then causes the negativity to become even more attached to you and you to it like a vicious circle that goes on in an ever increasing downward spiral that traps you in its grip until the energy in it is dissipated.  This is true of an attachment to even a fearful thought you may harbor... it's all information that we react to and we can choose to react either from love or fear.  Love will uplift us, fear will cause a downward spiral and we will remain stuck in the grip of fear until we learn to dissolve the energy within it.  This is true for either here in ELS or in the non-physical because we are individualized consciousness. Isn't this what a retriever does?  Help someone that is stuck in an emotional fear to let go of the fear so they can move on? Kathy

recoverer wrote on Dec 5^th, 2013 at 2:22pm:

I'm not saying everybody needs to overcome their sex drive while here in this World, but perhaps we can't live according to our higher selves as completely as possible, if we insist on clinging to and identifying with body-based drives.

I find it very "weird" to overcome your sex-drive. To me it is your primal force. What connects you to your true inner power.

I understand that on the other side you are both man and woman, depending on how you attune yourself at any moment.
Everybody has had thousands of lives both as man and as woman.

Still, overcoming your sex-drive, to me, feels like one bridge too far.


Mogenblue

Mogenblue wrote on Dec 5^th, 2013 at 1:11pm:

Lights of Love wrote on Dec 5th, 2013 at 11:53am: The only thing we need to free ourselves from is fear.  Period.  End of story! So if we don't fear the consequences of what we do everything will be allright...

Hi Mogenblue,

Well, that's not exactly what I mean.  All our interactions have consequences that we each judge as good or bad, helpful or not helpful, etc.

For example, unless we are a young child, we have learned that walking out into a busy street with cars speeding down the road could harm us.  That's not a motivating fear.  That's just stupid if you'd do it.

We all have basic fears that have evolved over eons of time such as fear of loss, of death, of being powerless, or inadequate, and so on.  Greed, for example is a fear of poverty.  These are the main fears that motivate an ego (most of us) so we try to manipulate the world around us to avoid pain we perceive we will feel.  This is the fear we need to get rid of.  And the way to do that is to let go of the fear and become love.  React to life's circumstances from a place of love, rather than a place of fear.

Does that make sense?

Kathy

Quote:

I agree that fear can be a problem, but I believe life is more complicated than that.

You're welcome, Albert. :)

Really it's only as complicated as you want to make it, but I've found that a lot of those "complications" stem from belief systems.

Kathy

Yes, false thinking leads to problems.

When I've dealt with my limiting thought patterns I haven't made as assesment of what percentage relate to fear.  I have found that the more I've let go of fear-based patterns, the more my heart chakra area has cleared, and the more I've been able to experience love and peace.



Lights of Love wrote on Dec 5^th, 2013 at 4:14pm:

Quote: I agree that fear can be a problem, but I believe life is more complicated than that. You're welcome, Albert. :) Really it's only as complicated as you want to make it, but I've found that a lot of those "complications" stem from belief systems. Kathy

I figure each person needs to do what is right for he or she. 

Regarding Primal force, it existed long before the body-based sex drive and will continue to exist long after bodies no longer apply to how we exist.

To me divine love doesn't feel the same as lust.


Mogenblue wrote on Dec 5^th, 2013 at 2:55pm:

recoverer wrote on Dec 5th, 2013 at 2:22pm: I'm not saying everybody needs to overcome their sex drive while here in this World, but perhaps we can't live according to our higher selves as completely as possible, if we insist on clinging to and identifying with body-based drives. I find it very "weird" to overcome your sex-drive. To me it is your primal force. What connects you to your true inner power. I understand that on the other side you are both man and woman, depending on how you attune yourself at any moment. Everybody has had thousands of lives both as man and as woman. Still, overcoming your sex-drive, to me, feels like one bridge too far. Mogenblue

Hi Mogen,

I read the bottom of your signature, and we are on the same page about love.  I also read your reference about the man who mocked Rulof's ideas.  This man did not believe in the afterlife, he said "when you are dead you are dead."  Quite different than my response.  You and I both believe in love as the driving force behind things.  I am open to reading Rulof and others but without adopting the dogma of their perception about things - I have to experience it for myself (this is true knowledge - your own perception).

Kathy is quite right about belief systems and how attachment to outcomes and fear interacts with our belief systems.  I learned that in a most personal way this year, and am still learning. But I agree.  Our mind is free, free from hells.  All doors to hell are self-created and locked from the inside (by the person's choices and consciousness).

If we examine our belief systems behind certain fears, we can choose to change our associations and beliefs and get past the fear and move toward love.  This takes a genuine person with an honest desire to hold the mirror up for themselves and take apart their hindering beliefs that either cause severe pain or fear. 

I am learning it is we, each of us who attach meaning to things.  We attach our emotions to outcomes from others in the world.  "He ought to do this, since I did that." Oh really?  That type of thinking sets up expectations and attachments "if he/she doesn't do this, then I am unloved." (etc.)  Anger, fear, panic or disappointment come from the values we place on the actions of others and the attachment we have to those actions. 

So what is the answer then?  We can not be robotic and totally unaffected by others, can we?  Well, of course not.  But to act out of love means to acknowledge other people for who they are, and love them without regard to their actions or the outcome of circumstances.  Once we attach our emotional well being to people or things, we rope ourselves onto the emotional spiral/rollercoaster Kathy mentioned. 

These are very heady concepts.  To those who don't delve into this topic, it can appear that to be entlightened with PUL is to not feel anything (so as not to be attached or hurt).  Quite the opposite.  My idea of the ideal state of PUL is a calm state of certainty.  Certainty of love which is unattached to outcome.  Certainty that we are connected to the divine and nothing more is needed. 

When in this calm state of certainty, our intent can manifest almost instantaneously.  You see fear and attachment interfere with intent.  We can state the intent, but our emotions and counterintents pull as away when we are afraid or attached to an outcome.

Thank you Kathy for bringing up this important topic.  By focusing on these concepts, it empowers us to act with love and detachment (without ego), rather than to question whether some may go to a hell after an earthly life against their will (fallen angels).

M

Lights of Love wrote on Dec 5^th, 2013 at 4:06pm:

Hi Mogenblue, Well, that's not exactly what I mean.  All our interactions have consequences that we each judge as good or bad, helpful or not helpful, etc. For example, unless we are a young child, we have learned that walking out into a busy street with cars speeding down the road could harm us.  That's not a motivating fear.  That's just stupid if you'd do it. We all have basic fears that have evolved over eons of time such as fear of loss, of death, of being powerless, or inadequate, and so on.  Greed, for example is a fear of poverty.  These are the main fears that motivate an ego (most of us) so we try to manipulate the world around us to avoid pain we perceive we will feel.  This is the fear we need to get rid of.  And the way to do that is to let go of the fear and become love.  React to life's circumstances from a place of love, rather than a place of fear. Does that make sense? Kathy

Hi Kathy,

I don't think developing love can be reduced to only let go of basic fears.
I do agree that fear can be an important factor that keeps people from developing love.

Fear can be brought in us in for example our childhood by our parents. At that stage we have little or no resistence and our parents are the ones who know us best, so they also know best how to scare us if they want.
So fear can be placed in us by our parents and it can be done very thouroughly. This then makes it very hard to let go of in the rest of your life.

You need to confront yourself with your fears and you need to experience yourself with that fear in a different situation where that fear is not justified. If you do that you are creating experiences that will make it clear that those fears are not justified and can actually be let go of.

There can be other fears as well and each need to be overcome in their own specific way.



But I don't think it is only fear that is keeping us from expressing love. I think it is also a lack of consciousness. In the book Question and Anwer by JR they say there is only unconsciousness which has to be overcome.
Please read the reply by Margriet in the topic Fallen Angels, in particular the quote of Question and Answer, part 5, page 108.

This topic Fallen Angels has some very interesting aspects about how to make yourself a sphere of light your own.
It learns that our character traits are not all of the same level and that the lowest are the ones that withhold us from taking a higher sphere into our posession.
Jozef rulof already said that to acknowledge 'mistakes', the wanting to see your own mistakes (read learning moments) is already quite something.

Master Alcar explained in several books how he made his way to the spheres of light.
He had already access to the first sphere of light. He had feel for art. In many lives he had developed his painting skills. In the age of Art he was reborn on earth as Anthony van Dijck and brought many pieces of art to earth. However, that did not help him to master a sphere of light. Quite on the contrary. That life confronted him with some of his lower character traits that were still in him. He acted according to those traits in that life and when he passed over again to the afterlife he had to accept the LAND OF TWILIGHT instead of a sphere of light.
This is specifically explained in lectures 39-57, book 3, no. 39, page 17 which is qouted in the reply that I linked to here before.

So it is definately not always fear. The Masters look at it as being confronted with unfinished traits in yourself that need to be worked on.

Margriet did a very fine job of analyzing those books and put her findings in that article. There is quite a lot to say about it. It is more about working on your higher feelings of love and bringing your lower aspects into harmony with those higher feelings. And so, step by step, you move to higher spheres of light.

But it goes with stumbling and falling back. You are always, time and again, confronted with the lower aspects that withhold you from taking a higher sphere fully and completely into your possession.
You need to have become conscious of everything that blocked you. You have to break that down in yourself and start living in a different way.
And this is by serving and loving other people.



Mogenblue

Master Alcar told us that after his life as Anthony van Dijck he had to accept the LAND OF TWILIGHT, while before he went to earth he was already moving along in the first sphere of light. He explained that the confrontation with his lower character traits were the cause of that.

Master Alcar did not explain in detail what those traits specifically are, but I have read on other forums what is known about the life of Anthony van Dijck through various sources. It showed that van Dijck was a pretty arrogant person. He was very cocky and proud of what he could do. Also, he was married and had a mistress beside that. So probably his lusts were also a determining factor that kept him from going to a sphere of light after he died.

When he got back in the afterlife he was confronted with those shortcomings and then he started to work on that, to free himself from those lower traits for good and for all.



Mogenblue

recoverer wrote on Dec 5^th, 2013 at 5:37pm:

To me divine love doesn't feel the same as lust.

Maybe that's why they invented different words for it.



Regards,
Mogenblue

DocM wrote on Dec 5^th, 2013 at 11:26pm:

this is true knowledge - your own perception

Your own perception if often colored by your own experiences. So to say that true knowledge is based on your own perception is a step too far for me.
True knowledge is what you define to be true. Ask 20 people what is true and you will get 20 different answers.


DocM wrote on Dec 5^th, 2013 at 11:26pm:

Thank you Kathy for bringing up this important topic.

Actually, if you scroll back to the beginning of this topic you will see that it was me who started this important topic.
...so much for your 'true knowledge' Doc.


Regards,
Mogenblue

Quote:

"But it goes with stumbling and falling back. You are always, time and again, confronted with the lower aspects that withhold you from taking a higher sphere fully and completely into your possession. You need to have become conscious of everything that blocked you. You have break that down in yourself and start living in a different way. And this is by serving and loving other people."

Mogy, the previous offer, blunt as it may be, still stands, if you're up for it. Feel free to rise up to the occasion, step by step. As Alcar could have said to his other life: get working at it, free yourself of your blocked shortcomings and you will be a Dijck no more.


Quote:

"Actually, if you scroll back to the beginning of this topic you will see that it was me who started this important topic. ...so much for your 'true knowledge' Doc."

There are topics within topics, that's my true knowledge. This being an important topic is your true knowledge, and so much for it and other true knowledge about this and the other co-main and sub topics herein, however important and semi important they may be according to different true knowledge.

Mogen,

I appreciate your topic and thank you for starting this important thread.  But my comment was addressed to Kathy who brought up new points about limiting belief systems and the lower urges.  She is quite correct about it and her answer was important - that is why I thanked her.

To tie yourself to Rulof's system as a "gold standard" is for you to enter into a belief system.  Just keep that in mind as you explore.  When I talk of finding out for ourselves, and not taking another's word as gospel, I am trying to appeal to people to avoid limiting belief systems and use their own perception. 

To then argue that Rulof's (or any other master's) perception will be better than your own perception and experience is your right.  But it is not my way. 


M

DocM wrote on Dec 6^th, 2013 at 12:58pm:

I appreciate your topic and thank you for starting this important thread.

This is such a glorious answer.
I had to quote it before you retract it.
You really conquered yourself, Doc.


Much appreciation,
Mogenblue

No, I was quite serious in my praise.  The topic is worthy, and all who know me on the board would tell you I mean what I say and am fair.  However, you misinterpreted my praise of Kathy's specific point within your thread (as BobMonroe alluded to).  Either way, I am happy to be thankful, and to share what I know.

M

Hi Doc, nice to see you return to the board.

My only thought on this thread is to mention what ES said about heaven and hell.  As you say, ES is one of the most extensive afterlife explorers but even so, that doesn't automatically mean that everything he said is totally correct.  Same goes for Seth, Elias, etc.

So.....ES emphasized that where we end up when we die is dependent on our true self, or as he said, our true love.  A person who outwardly lives a good life, obeys the laws, is kind to others, may or may not play a part as to his fate.  If his real Self is someone who lusts for sex but who suppresses it at least in terms of not taking action to fulfill his lusts, that nonetheless represents his true Self.  As Jesus said, a man who lusts in his heart has committed adultery nonetheless.

What has always bothered me about the true Self is that nowhere in my reading of ES does he say how that Self can be changed.  It really sounds as if we are who we are, and regardless of what we do or how hard we try, it doesn't alter or affect our true Self.

I even wrote to a Swedenborg group asking this question and never got a reply.  It bothers me because it seems as if we really have no control over our destiny.

I could be misreading ES, and hope that I am.  Would welcome any reactions to this.

ps- Don, this thread is tailor made for you!  Come on in, lots of us miss you.

rondele wrote on Dec 6^th, 2013 at 4:12pm:

It bothers me because it seems as if we really have no control over our destiny.

Well, that depends on what time scale you look at it.
If you look at it in terms of billions of years you have no control over it. Because God demands that you will return to Him/Her in full conscious. And God will see to it that you get every opportunity again and again until you finally made it.

In terms of one lifespan here on Earth you certainly do have control over your destiny. But it does help if you know how to orient yourself in your existence. That is what religions are for. But then again one religion is not the same as the other. So you have to find a religion or belief system that best suits your needs.

If ES is the answer for your questions you should go for ES. If Islam is the answer for your question you should go muslim. Etcetera, etcetera.

You probably know what way I have chosen so I don't have to mention that by name.


You DO have a free choice and free will and it is here on earth that you have very good opportunities to make progress. Because here you interact by nature with people of all different kinds of attunements. If you live in the afterlife you live in a sphere that attunes to your inner self. You cannot just go out of it whenever it pleases you to where ever you want. You need inner conscious and inner powers for that. So in that respect choices are more limited in the afterlife.

The interaction with people of different levels of development here on earth is what will confront you with your lower aspects. And then it is up to you to decide how you want to move on. That is where you prove what you are worth and what you want to become.
As far as I have understood.

To simplify it a little more: it is every situation where you say: I don't know... ;)



Mogenblue

You're welcome, Matthew :-)  I agree it is an important topic and that's why I'd like to expand a little more.  But first, Mogenblue, I, too, thank you for starting this important thread.

Sometimes things happen in our lives where we have to react to them.  We might think that in some circumstances reacting with fear is a good thing because it keeps us safe, but that's not true.  Being fearless doesn't mean that you have no brain or give up your intellect.  In fact, being fearless means that you will be able to use your intellect in more productive ways because fear always causes you to feel confused and unable to think clearly, perhaps even act inappropriately to the circumstance.

There are things we'd choose not to do such as walk out in front of a speeding bus, or walk down a dark alley at night in a bad neighborhood, but not because your motivation is fear... you can be motivated by having good sense intellectually and choose not to put yourself in danger.  Being fearless never means to be stupid and not use your intellect.  For example, if I were fearlessly hiking along a mountain path and saw a mountain lion I wouldn't just simply walk on by paying no attention to the potentially dangerous circumstance.  Since I'd know mountain lions could be around, I'd be prepared and know what to do in case I spotted one.  If I'm fearless, then I'd be clear headed and able to react quickly and in the most appropriate way.  I might not survive but my chances of survival would be greatly optimized because of not being in a state of fear.  If I were in a state of fear, I might be paralyzed by it, feel confused... run when I should stand still or stand still when I should run, etc.  Fear only causes us to not think clearly, makes us feel nervous, shaky or panicky.  Fear is the problem.  It's never a good solution and will not help us to evolve in productive ways.

When we are fearless we can confront a situation, even one where we might not survive, but we could at least give it our best shot by being fearless, which is always better than having fear.  Fear makes us ineffective in circumstances where we need to act decisively using good judgment.  Having fear isn't part of what helps us to survive in a physical world, nor does it help us to progress spiritually.  In fact, fearful motivation of our intent could lead us in downward spirals that directly affect our experience of the afterlife.  Whereby motivations borne of love, caring, kindness, and so on, bring into being spiritual maturity within us.

Kathy

PS to Rondele - I think this speaks to the main points ES makes, too.  I don't think we can single out one thing such as lust and have that define our true inner self.  If consciousness is fundamental, and I think it is, then we likely have a lot of qualities that determine the state of our inner being.  The more loving those qualities are, the more control and power we have over our destiny.  On the other hand, as mentioned above, fear leads us spiraling downward so to speak.

Hi Kathy-

I understand your points, but have you ever had nightmares where you awake quaking with fear? And feeling tremendous relief when you realize it was just a dream? In such cases, would nightmares be reacted to differently based on the consciousness of the person?  Or would a fearless person perhaps not have nightmares to begin with?

Interesting question huh.  Gets into the nature of dreams where our inner landscape might or might not mirror our waking consciousness.

I didn't mean to suggest that sexual lust is the only characteristic that defines a person, but that it, just as the love of money or material possessions, or power, might be the primary attraction of the person.

I'm sure there's a sort of heirarchy of "loves" rather than a single one, but it sure sounds as if ES is saying
that the primary one is pretty much determinant as to where we end up.

And also our so-called loves certainly change as we age.  Loving the fast life as a young person will in many cases transition into valuing the satisfaction that helping others brings. Of course there are the Charlie Mansons of the world that remain unrepentant right up to the end. 

Hi Roger,

Well, first of all I don't think anyone existing in the ELS is completely fearless.  I know I'm not. lol :-)

I think the dream reality is different than say the reality we are in when we let go of our body.  In the dream reality we don't have full control over our thought processes because since we are asleep, we're not conscious.  Now if we were awake while in the dream state/reality then we would have awareness and choice would be available to us.  Actually about a week or so ago I woke up suddenly three nights in a row in a state of panic.  Once awake I realized I was dreaming about fearful thoughts I'd been entertaining during the day.  I remember other times when I'd wake up feeling fear because of a movie I'd watched.
 
For the most part I think our dreams are made up of thoughts and experiences we have and sometimes we are able to work out problems that we're dealing with in our everyday life.  I think while we're dreaming there's also opportunities for us to receive messages from our guidance system.  For example, an artist may dream of a beautiful painting, wake up and be inspired to paint it.  Or a song writer may dream of a tune, wake up and hammer it out on his piano. 

Several years ago when I was going through a tough time in my life I dreamed of tornadoes night after night.  Finally I figured out I needed to stop spinning fearful thoughts in my mind like a broken record.  Another time I dreamed of Buddha and a golden spider, but never have figured out why, so sometimes dreams don't make sense to us.
 
I know some people have a lot of beliefs about what dreams mean and so forth, but I try to not develop a belief system to try to explain them.  I should mention that I think once we are awake in a dream, we may not be in the dream reality, but in a different reality.  The way you can tell is if you have complete awareness and conscious choice available to you.

Kathy

When it comes to overcoming lust, well first of all,
"generally", women are somewhat different than men when it comes to sex.  Women are more interested in the emotional part, while men are more interested in physical pleasure.

The desire for physical pleasure might be more binding than the desire for emotional fullfillment, to some degree this is a generalization.

I don't believe repression is a good idea. It is more of a matter of understanding that your inner spiritual self doesn't require sexual fullfillment any more than a being of love and light's inner self needs sexual fullfillment.

If you choose to not see that your inner self ("true self") doesn't require sexual fullfillment, then you pretty much decide to not see how complete your inner self is.

I believe this World needs to change for the better because it has way too many problems. Going by the information I received and what makes sense to me, if a limited number of people reach the point where they can live according to love and their inner selves to a significant degree, this will have a postive effect on the rest of the World.  Therefore, I think of overcoming my sex-drive as a form of service.

In a way, overcoming this drive isn't any different than overcoming any other body-based drive, such as the self-defense instinct that can cause us to react to others in a non-loving way.

Can a person ever completely overcome his or her sex drive while in this World? I don't know, but I bet you that somewhere there is person such as a Nun who decided to devote her life to God and the service of others to such a heart-based extent, that her life has reached the point where it is quite natural for her to not even concern herself about sex.

It's not about sex being evil, even though some people engage in it in a manner that really lacks love. Rather, it is a matter of increasing the degree to which you can live  according to your inner self rather than your body-based drives and the kind of mind activity they can lead to.

Hi Kathy, thank you and you're welcome :)
And thank you too Doc :)

I still don't think that fear would be at the basis of every emotion.
I think that some people might be more involved with fear then others. It might have a cause in a previous life when someone had to endure terrible situations beyond their power: drowning to death, burning to death, tortured to death.
I guess such experiences may leave deep scars behind in a persons subconscious.
Some time ago I read on another forum of someone who was terrified of water and others there suggested that she had drowned in her previous life. That seemed pretty obvious to me too.

I do remember from my own experience that I visited Vienna when I was about 18 years old. It gave me a terrible feeling. On one hand I felt very familiar overthere and wondered why everything had changed so much. On the other hand there was this terrible fear coming into me that gave me the all persisting urge to be out of there before the night would fall. So I made it out of there ASAP.
Years later I had a psychic reading with a very talented woman who could see your aura and chakra's by nature. During that session she told me I had had a life about 200 years ago in Vienne. It was a very intens and chaotic life that ended in suicide. And when I entered the afterlife it took me a very long time to come back to myself. So...
when I thought back of my experience some years earlier a few things fell into place.


I don't see how pride or arrogance would have to have an underlaying fear. People can be pretty confident about themselves and certain things they can do. That may give them a sense of superiority over others that is not legitimate, an oversized ego.
But such emotions do stand in your way to get higher in the spheres of light. I also think that hate does not necessarily need to have a basis in fear either. It is possible of course, but some people might be very obsessed with being in control over their environment that they easily might develop hate as soon as someone does not recognize that and obeys to that.
Things like that may be very complex and very differentiated. Some psychos might be easily analyzed in a few pages, others might need volumes to fully describe.


Hunger has always been a driving force for all life to search for food. You need to eat. Your body needs it to function properly. That is obvious. But it doesn't automatically mean there is an underlaying fear of dying if we don't find it. In general collecting food is a regular occupation in everyone's life without a sense of fear at all.
I usually get my food in the supermarket and not a flinch of fear is inside me. I am more focused on getting the cheapest deals so I have more money to spare for other things. But it is not fear that drives me. It's my intellect that says: hey, you can do smarter then that.

But also in the past when we lived in the wildernes food was generally quite readily available. Of course there may have been times that it was more difficult, that some found themselves in an extreme situation. But in general God would not put you on a planet to test you and to starve you. God did not have that in mind for all creatures. It would conflict with the concept of an unconditional loving God. So, there could be a few more things to be said about that as well.


Regards,
Mogenblue / Frits

recoverer wrote on Dec 6^th, 2013 at 8:11pm:

I don't believe repression is a good idea. It is more of a matter of understanding that your inner spiritual self doesn't require sexual fullfillment any more than a being of love and light's inner self needs sexual fullfillment. If you choose to not see that your inner self ("true self") doesn't require sexual fullfillment, then you pretty much decide to not see how complete your inner self is.

Yes, but how do you gain that understanding? What if you feel that natural urge to have sex with someone else? Men and women are shaped to form a unity. They are actually built for it and you see it back just about everywhere else in nature. All life has sex. It does. So it is natural to have it. And it is essential to ensure offspring.

I do think there is something magical about sex. It connects you to God because that is how you create new life. Creating new life is doing Gods work. God wants you to be mother and father because that is how God planned it.
Sex connects you with the primal Divine Energy to allow a Soul to get connected to the material plane again and start a new life. And it is the only natural way to do it.
That is what is so special about sex. What can be so special about sex.
Sexual experiences may give you tremendous satisfaction that cannot be achieved in any other kind of occupation.

So that is why it is difficult for me to understand why you should not need to have sex.
But I do understand that in higher spheres people have overcome that. I just don't understand how they got there.
Maybe the urge fades away as you get older.

But what keeps me thinking is how it actually happens.

How can it be that someone like master Alcar who was already walking and moving around in a sphere of light was reincarnated back on earth to serve, to bring paintings of art, lost himself in his lower traits and then when he entered the afterlife again had to accept the Land of Twilight?

They say that wisdom and consciousness that you have gained, acquired, will never get lost. But by some aspects of yourself it appears to happen that you obscure your sphere of light, that you change your natural habitat from a sphere of light into a sphere of darkness.

And then you really have to work on yourself, on those specific traits, to come out of it again to get access again to a sphere of light.

I think it is not so much moving from one place to another (and the books confirm that), but more solving unfinished traits in yourself. Those traits, those lower traits are what cause your light to dissolve, to disappear, so that you are left with darkness around you.

I just keep wondering about it.





overhere
in Amsterdam

Mogenblue:

I’ve found that I can share love more completely with a lady when I don’t include sexual activity.  Sexuality belongs to the bodies we make use of for a short period of time, not our spirits.

I’ve found that in order to function sexually, I have to be sexually stimulated to some degree, regardless of how much I feel love for the lady I share sex with. Such sexual stimulation doesn’t add anything to love.

Spirit beings can share love and oneness with each other completely without engaging in body-based sexual activity. This being the case, why can’t the same be true for us?

Regarding overcoming the sex drive, I can’t say I’ve done so completely,  but I’ve found that the more I’ve become committed to living according to my spirit self, the less sway sex has had on me. 

It isn’t a matter of repression. Rather, it is a matter of prioritization. It is a matter of trying to live according to the fact that I’m spirit being who is in this World for spiritual purposes, rather than body-based purposes.

I believe that some people try to spiritualize sex for no other reason than they just don’t want to stop engaging in it. I wonder how many people don’t accomplish what they hoped to accomplish when they incarnated in this World because they value sex too much.

Regarding the urge going away when you get older all by itself, I know of older men who still like to look at the young ladies with sexual thoughts.

In a way, I don't believe that people should concern themselves with the issue of sex too much.  There are probably some people who refrain from it when it isn't best for them to do so. For most people it is enough to insure that love is a part of their sexual activity as much as possible.

However, as I said before, it might not be possible to live according to our inner self as much as it possible while in this World, if we define ourselves as beings "that have to have sex."


Mogenblue wrote on Dec 6^th, 2013 at 9:50pm:

recoverer wrote on Dec 6th, 2013 at 8:11pm: I don't believe repression is a good idea. It is more of a matter of understanding that your inner spiritual self doesn't require sexual fullfillment any more than a being of love and light's inner self needs sexual fullfillment. If you choose to not see that your inner self ("true self") doesn't require sexual fullfillment, then you pretty much decide to not see how complete your inner self is. Yes, but how do you gain that understanding? What if you feel that natural urge to have sex with someone else? Men and women are shaped to form a unity. They are actually built for it and you see it back just about everywhere else in nature. All life has sex. It does. So it is natural to have it. And it is essential to ensure offspring. I do think there is something magical about sex. It connects you to God because that is how you create new life. Creating new life is doing Gods work. God wants you to be mother and father because that is how God planned it. Sex connects you with the primal Divine Energy to allow a Soul to get connected to the material plane again and start a new life. And it is the only natural way to do it. That is what is so special about sex. What can be so special about sex. Sexual experiences may give you tremendous satisfaction that cannot be achieved in any other kind of occupation. So that is why it is difficult for me to understand why you should not need to have sex. But I do understand that in higher spheres people have overcome that. I just don't understand how they got there. Maybe the urge fades away as you get older.

I would like to give a little update about myself. Most of it I have already shared with you in the past, so that will not be very new to you. But I would like to address the issue of fear, what role it has played so far. Because fear has played a significant role in my life. As Kathy has said: you need to let go of fear. So I will show you how I have gone about it.

I have been heavily influenced by my mother while I still lived at home. I come from a family of seven children where I was 6th in line. My mother married as a virgin and she had very strong feelings about purity in that respect. She could burst into a fury if you would talk about emotion. So in some respects she had absolutely no idea what love means at all.
Of course we all noticed that but none of us was able to do something about it because she was the dominating figure and my father was too soft in his character to be able to change anything about that.

I was raised in a Roman Catholic family. We all know how they manipulate you with doom and eternal hell.
My parents lived in a time where the church still had much control over the community. That is why after the war they were able to push my mother to have so many children. She thought is was more then enough after five, but the pastors insisted 'she would do more' or so. So she had two more and when they tried to push her even further she knocked them out of the house. They had gone too far.

All in all my parents had seven children. First three daughters, then four boys. The care of so many children was too much for my parents. It was a very hectic situation at home. That is why she decided to put her daughters in a boarding school. I was still pretty young then, about four or so. That gave much more peace in the house.



From her sense of purity she decided that I had to stay 'clean' as well until I would meet 'the right one'. I asked her how I would know that and she replied she couldn't tell me.
That went so far that she refused to let me have girl friends and she even would not pass the telephone through if a girl would call for me. So she deliberately and actively blocked my emotional development.

She also loaded me with her poison that people could not be trusted and always repeated the story of how her father fell into deep poverty after making some wrong decisions in his life and difficult it was to support his family of about eight or nine children.
That was pretty sickening from time to time.

Because she refused me to have contact with girls my friends said they could not go around with me anymore because I stayed behind. I lost my friends. I tried to make new, but the word spread, so others would avoid me.
So my lonely life started at home due to my mother's influence.

Before I finished my technical education I had left my parental home because it had become clear that the situation at home would never turn to a better end. But the harm had been done.
My mother had made me so insecure about myself that I was never able again to overcome that. She had ruined my emotional development. She had created fear in me to fail and fear how she would react if ever I would bring a girl home to meet my parents. I had done that once and the way she worked that girl out decided I would never let anything like that to happen again.

Also, because she was my mother there was this bond between her and me, the motherbond, that never got away. Not until she died.

Because of that I was never able to establish normal relationships with women anymore. I was too scared of what my parents would do.
So that was a significant factor why things went wrong when I met my twinsoul in my mid thirties.
I had never been able to learn how to go around with women, so engaging with my twinsoul again was doomed to fail.
My guides, who had informed me of who she was and what would happen had seen that and had also told me then that it would fail. But back then obviously I was not ready to accept that.



In 1999 my mother passed over to the other side. It was a difficult end for her. She suffered from a stroke and was unable to do about anything at all anymore. I helped her a lot then, in hospital.
On her dying bed I held her hand for every day for one or two weeks. Every day for one or two hours or so. And all I did then was cry and cry. I was the drain that enabled her to lose the greef and sorrow that she was unable to let go of during her life.
A few days before she died she said one thing to me: they scared me.
That was all she could say about it.


It took me quite some time to come to terms with my past. It's now fourteen years ago since my mother passed away and I feel that I am no longer influenced by what she did to me. And there is no active connection anymore between me and her.
But obviously I am now 53, so I cannot pretend anymore like I am 20 or so. Life is totally different.


So that is what fear has brought about in my life. I wanted to share this with you because it is good to be honest about that. And I don't feel so very vulnerable anymore like in the past. Over the years I have regained more strength, but approaching women is still a touchy thing for me. Well, at least the fear has disappeared. It's now the unfamiliarity and lack of experience that holds me back.





Frits

Hi Frits,

The things you went through in life touches my heart.  Yes, this is one of the main ways we all develop fearful belief systems.  I have a lot of empathy for what you went through as I went through some of the same things with my parent's and grandparent's Christian beliefs.

Regarding what Recoverer says about sex in my opinion is just a belief he has about it.  That doesn't make it true.  If believing this is helpful to him, that's fine, but his experience or belief system is different that mine.  I encourage you to be skeptical of what anyone says.  Take what is useful to you, but guard against starting a belief system based on what someone else says, including me. 

Regardless of whether you are celibate or sexually involved makes no difference what-so-ever in and of itself.  I say this based on my own experience of long periods (years) of both being sexually active as well as celibate.  Neither one made any difference what-so-ever in my spiritual growth.  In fact, I'd say during the years of being sexually active were years that tremendous spiritual growth took place in myself.

You see, what is most important, what spurs spiritual growth is how you are inside of you.  Your inner essence.  If you are a loving person, and I think you are, then as long as you continue to treat others with understanding, caring, kindness, and all the other things borne of love then spiritual growth cannot be avoided.  It will occur automatically.  It's our insecurities, feelings of inadequacy, and all the other things borne of fear that prevent us from growing spiritually.

Lust is simply another word for desire and there is absolutely nothing wrong or spiritually immature about desiring to have a sexual relationship with someone.  In fact, it is through our interactions with each other, especially in our intimate relationships, where we are able to learn and grow.  And as long as we maintain a love-based intent in all of our interactions, we not only produce spiritual growth within us, but we also contribute to the spiritual well-being of the whole of creation.

Kathy

The desire for sex is a biological urge and it is neither a positive nor negative attribute. It simply is. However, it can be expressed in healthy or unhealthy ways, can involve exploitation of others, can feed certain kinds of compulsions or addictions, and can confuse an individual with cultural expectations along with the associated rebellions from those expectations.

It is true that what is in your heart is most important, but it is also true that honest self-examination may include the need to refrain from that kind of activity in order to learn who you are and what kind of person you want to be as a whole human being on your own, which is a valid and complete way of being when your life is in harmony.

There are millions of ways for a human being to self-express and sexual activity is only one of them. It is important, in my opinion, to keep it in perspective. It is not a necessity, and can be a distraction from more subtle expressions of affection and caring for others.

All people are valuable, no matter what their orientation or life experiences. Being a human being is a challenge, and this kind of self-understanding is important to talk about. It is brave to share and to open our minds and hearts to others in this way, so I applaud all of you who dare to do it.

Kathy said: "Regarding what Recoverer says about sex in my opinion is just a belief he has about it."

Recoverer responds: Sometimes our beliefs are based on our knowledge rather than erroneous notions. I suppose it is up to each person to decide for his or herself whether Kathy or I have sex-related beliefs that are based on erroneous notions.

Kathy, thank you very much for your empathy and kind and interesting comment.  :)
I felt quite sure about posting such private issues here that they would be met with understanding and not being stepped on my soul again to check if everything has really been tied up and secured. You confirmed my trust. Thanks again.


recoverer wrote on Dec 8^th, 2013 at 1:47pm:

Sometimes our beliefs are based on our knowledge rather than erroneous notions. I suppose it is up to each person to decide for his or herself whether Kathy or I have sex-related beliefs that are based on erroneous notions.

Yes, so this is exactly the reason why years ago I tried to find a way to overcome that. How can you overcome earthbound interpretations?
How can you rule out the possibility of people saying this is true while others say it's not?

You would have to have access to a source that is beyond the earthbound level.
But opening up to such a source is not as easy for everyone. How do you know if this source is true?

I found the answers to all of these questions. And I have had very satisfying results.
So, if people say I have gone astray in my 'belief system', well so be it.
I am too saturated and satisfied to change anymore.


Mogenblue / Frits

Mogenblue:

It is possible that two people will receive guidance about sexuality from love-based spirit beings that differs, because each person has different needs.

Thank you for sharing your story. I wasn't aware of it. It provides an example of how religious belief (as had by your mother) can sometimes go astray.


Mogenblue wrote on Dec 8^th, 2013 at 2:02pm:

Kathy, thank you very much for your empathy and kind and interesting comment.  :) I felt quite sure about posting such private issues here that they would be met with understanding and not being stepped on my soul again to check if everything has really been tied up and secured. You confirmed my trust. Thanks again. recoverer wrote on Dec 8th, 2013 at 1:47pm: Sometimes our beliefs are based on our knowledge rather than erroneous notions. I suppose it is up to each person to decide for his or herself whether Kathy or I have sex-related beliefs that are based on erroneous notions. Yes, so this is exactly the reason why years ago I tried to find a way to overcome that. How can you overcome earthbound interpretations? How can you rule out the possibility of people saying this is true while others say it's not? You would have to have access to a source that is beyond the earthbound level. But opening up to such a source is not as easy for everyone. How do you know if this source is true? I found the answers to all of these questions. And I have had very satisfying results. So, if people say I have gone astray in my 'belief system', well so be it. I am too saturated and satisfied to change anymore. Mogenblue / Frits

recoverer wrote on Dec 8^th, 2013 at 2:14pm:

Mogenblue: It is possible that two people will receive guidance about sexuality from love-based spirit beings that differs, because each person has different needs.

That is absolutely true. I completely and heartfelt agree with that.
This is one thing why it would be so good if many more people would become aware of the spiritual guidance that can be there for them.
Because I guess I have had guidance in the past that may well differ from the guidance that you have had. But it has brought me great progression in my emotional and spiritual development.

There is a time for everything. Spiritual guides usually know better then yourself which time requires what kind of help.


recoverer wrote on Dec 8^th, 2013 at 2:14pm:

Thank you for sharing your story. I wasn't aware of it. It provides an example of how religious belief (as had by your mother) can sometimes go astray.

You're welcome, Recoverer.  :)


Mogenblue

Lights of Love wrote on Dec 8^th, 2013 at 1:15pm:

Regardless of whether you are celibate or sexually involved makes no difference what-so-ever in and of itself.  I say this based on my own experience of long periods (years) of both being sexually active as well as celibate.  Neither one made any difference what-so-ever in my spiritual growth.  In fact, I'd say during the years of being sexually active were years that tremendous spiritual growth took place in myself. You see, what is most important, what spurs spiritual growth is how you are inside of you.  Your inner essence.  If you are a loving person, and I think you are, then as long as you continue to treat others with understanding, caring, kindness, and all the other things borne of love then spiritual growth cannot be avoided.  It will occur automatically.  It's our insecurities, feelings of inadequacy, and all the other things borne of fear that prevent us from growing spiritually. Kathy

Hi Kathy,

I just wanted to say that I very much agree with these things you said.

I did have some years too of being sexually active and indeed those were years that tremendous spiritual growth took place in me too. That made it clear to me how wrong my mother was about these things. It gave me back a lot of my power but it couldn't heal everything.

And like you said: it's our insecurities, feelings of inadequacy, and all the other things borne of fear that prevent us from growing spiritually.



Frits

wrote on Dec 4^th, 2013 at 12:17pm:

Quote: "In all cases that I've explored there is a sure fire way to avoid this. That is to focus on experiencing and expressing unconditional love to an ever greater degree." Bruce, you recently expressed unCarlditional love. Was this a decision based on the lower part of your nature? [quote]"Today we have learned much more about who we are and what choices we have. That was more difficult say 50 or 100 years ago. Back then the church would threaten you with doom and eternal hell if you did not comply to their standards. That didn't make things much better. Assuming you were connected with that church of course."

Mogenblue, the last time you were around you wrote that comitting suicide was breaking the law of your god, and that one put oneself into the suffering of having to feel the decay of the physical body because one remains attached to it through the silver cord. That's not the church of 50 or 100 years ago, but the dark ages.


Quote:

"I agree that we are not guided by some group of saintly elders to keep reincarnating on earth. From what I have learned from Rulofs books this is certainly not in the hands of any kind of human being whatever level they may have achieved."

From what I've learned from Dr. Seuss' books, you can get help from teachers, but you are going to have to learn a lot by yourself, sitting alone in a room. You have brains in your head. You have feet in your shoes. You can steer yourself in any direction you choose. You're on your own, and you know what you know. And you are the guy who'll decide where to go.

Then again, a lot of stuff is written by a lot of different people.


Quote:

"Human beings simply don't have the powers, the CONSCIOUS, to handle that."

The life forces animating us temporary sock puppets aren't human, but are having human experiences. Following the silver cords will reveal our beings beyond the flesh. At the end (or beginning) of the cords are beings with a lot of non-physical cords, and they are indeed the sole decision makers regarding incarnations.


Quote:

"There is only one way to evolve higher in the spheres in the afterlife: by serving and loving other people, the life of God."

I've decided that you're allowed to serve and love me right now. Consider yourself lucky as there is no need to wait for the afterlife to do this. Oh, happy to both give and present this opportunity for you to evolve higher. And, you're welcome. :)[/quote]

Hey! I've being behaving myself and words lately! No doubt, Bruce, has being recently, suddenly, vocal now on this forums message list, due to his reduced income and money train 'imaginative' schemes, because it no longer generates the financial desires he expects...Blessings and Love. Carl and Family    

Hello Frits.                     

Do you believe there is such a thing as a spiritual fall?

And if so, do you think that one way such a fall may come about is by misuse of sex?

What does your conscience think?


crossbow 

(Hello Recoverer, Kathy, Carl, and others. I hope you are all well.) 

Howdy Carl. An author makes a living as with any profession, and a reduced income can indeed happen to anyone. Very basic stuff. But I'm wondering if you know what the imagination technique is about? Have you tried it? Have you tried other techniques?

Crossbow, nice to see you around, cobber. Thought about you the other day with the forum as a backdrop, and here you are. Btw, what does your conscience think?

1796 wrote on Dec 10^th, 2013 at 8:16am:

Hello Frits.                      Do you believe there is such a thing as a spiritual fall? And if so, do you think that one way such a fall may come about is by misuse of sex?

Hi crossbow,

Yes, I certainly think a spiritual fall is possible. But it is important how to look at it, how to understand it.
In my understanding a spiritual fall means that a spirit has met with lower spirits and somehow that higher spirit still had some character traits in him/her that made it possible that he/she would get seriously involved with those lower spirits.

When you get seriously involved with lower spirits in such a way that you cannot return to your higher sphere anymore, because of being involved too strong, you can speak of a spiritual fall.
So actually you can see it as being faced with some lower character traits of yourself which you had not laid off yet.

Misuse of sex may very well be such a reason, among others. People can certainly be overwhelmed by the emotions that may be freed in sex. But I do wonder if sex with a lower spirit is so fullfilling as sex with a spirit of your own level. Because a spirit of a lower level has less love to give.



Frits

wrote on Dec 10^th, 2013 at 1:39pm:

Howdy Carl. An author makes a living as with any profession, and a reduced income can indeed happen to anyone. Very basic stuff. But I'm wondering if you know what the imagination technique is about? Have you tried it? Have you tried other techniques? Crossbow, nice to see you around, cobber. Thought about you the other day with the forum as a backdrop, and here you are. Btw, what does your conscience think?

Carl, never argue with a fool. They will drag you to their own level and then beat you by experience.


Have a good day,
Mogenblue

Crossbow,

I actually think that a spiritual fall is a sort of common practice in the afterlife.
Here on earth it's easy to think that you go from dark to light. When you think about it in such simple terms you are apt to believe that the transition is done in one complete wholesome step.

From what I have come to understand that is never the case. Never at all.

You gradually build up a higher consciousness. A person has a variety of character traits and they all need to be of the same level to fully take a sphere into your possession. But you have to do that all by yourself. You have to work on that.

So because of that it always goes step by step. And because of that you may enter a point where you have access to a higher sphere and think you have made it. But human as you are, there are always some aspects in yourself that you are not aware off and that still need to be worked on. And those aspects are what cause a spirit being to fall back to a lower sphere.

By being confronted time and again with those lower aspects and working on them until you have overcome them all there will come a moment where you will finally take a higher sphere fully into your possesion.

And then the process continues for the next higher level....   :)


Frits

Quote:

"Carl, never argue with a fool. They will drag you to their own level and then beat you by experience."

Congrats Mogy, your keyboardian expression has attained multi-dimensional proportions, irony wise. :)


Quote:

"Here on earth it's easy to think that you go from dark to light. When you think about it in such simple terms you are apt to believe that the transition is done in one complete wholesome step. From what I have come to understand that is never the case. Never at all."

Pretending to be light is wholesome fun, but it's a plateu of complacency. The roads lead onwards towards balance.

wrote on Dec 10^th, 2013 at 3:56pm:

...

q.e.d.

Crossbow,

With respect to conscience I would like to refer what Kathy said before:

Quote:

And as long as we maintain a love-based intent in all of our interactions, we not only produce spiritual growth within us, but we also contribute to the spiritual well-being of the whole of creation.

It is the intent with what you do anything that matters.

If a spirit of light would have sex with a lower spirit to enable that lower spirit to have sex in a more elevated way, to experience more warmth and other higher emotions in sex then I think that higher spirit is actually doing a good job.

I think the higher spirit is then serving and loving a lower spirit. The lower spirit may benefit from this by experiencing that it is possible to have sex in other ways as well. Perhaps even in ways it has never experienced sex before.
Thus it may try to find ways to make that way of loving and having sex it's own. To internalize that wisdom and those capabilities, and to make it fully their own.

It is all about the intent.



Frits

Frits,
Thank you for taking the time to provide those detailed answers.
I found your description interesting of how a spiritual fall may occur and how it may involve sex.

I agree. Different parts of our self require attention and correction as different times, and in our correcting of our self is risk. Old errors, unfinished business, missed opportunities, tend to come around again and again, along with new ones too, and with every opportunity to put things right is also an opportunity to put them further wrong, to further mix up what we might have fixed up.

The laws of building our self are no different from the laws of building anything. The laws of physics are the laws of mind.

I had a read of some of your forum too. And about Jozef Rulof. An interesting fellow.

crossbow

wrote on Dec 10^th, 2013 at 1:39pm:

...Crossbow, nice to see you around, cobber. Thought about you the other day with the forum as a backdrop, and here you are. Btw, what does your conscience think?

Thanks Bob.
Yeah, funny about that, coz I've been "thinking" about this forum for a week or two, and about you Bob, and others too.
Well then the other day I goes an gets the idea in me coconut to blow in and chew some fat with ol' cobbers.
So here we all is, and about three years wiser too. 
I'll answer that query later, after I've thought about what not to write.
In the meantime I would like to read your thoughts on the same questions.

crossbow
 

1796 wrote on Dec 11^th, 2013 at 2:20am:

I agree. Different parts of our self require attention and correction as different times, and in our correcting of our self is risk. Old errors, unfinished business, missed opportunities, tend to come around again and again, along with new ones too, and with every opportunity to put things right is also an opportunity to put them further wrong, to further mix up what we might have fixed up.

Yes, people are free to go either way. They can try to do things right when a new opportunity comes around, but they can also mess things further up.
I think that is why it is important that people understand that it certainly does matter which way you choose.

There has been one person in history who was excellent equipped to explain that to us. Unfortunately he was put to the cross because people were not ready for His Message.
Yet today His Life inspires millions and millions of people around the world.



Frits

It doesn't matter so much the choices you've made in the past, so much as where your consciousness has evolved to in the ever present.  If your actions were hateful, but you have seen the light, and changed to act out of love (spontaneously, without prompting) that is all that matters.  The notion of karma is funny to me.  Because it is a real force as long as we are on the see-saw of it.  Once we realize our divine nature and act in and out of love, we are off the karmic wheel - through love. 

One should never act out of fear of being punished in a hell or not getting to a heaven.  Because fear is the opposite of love, and "acting" good, is not the same as understanding deep down in your core/being that love underpins all of us.  So letting love shine, and acting right because it is the only sane way to act is my ultimate goal. 

I tend to somewhat ignore retrieving aspects of oneself.  Why?  Well for me, this unnecessarily complicates the situation.  We are really one with God and the universe.  We incarnate into a body to experience a "separate" existence.  Now you would ask me to split myself again into 1000 shards, and look for any lost pieces through a retrieval?  I don't think so.  I would rather work toward a global/general level of expressing love, and let those little shards or pieces of me melt away when they finally realize that they were not separate at all.


M

DocM wrote on Dec 11^th, 2013 at 2:06pm:

The notion of karma is funny to me.  Because it is a real force as long as we are on the see-saw of it.  Once we realize our divine nature and act in and out of love, we are off the karmic wheel - through love.

Doc,
if you don't believe in Karma (Cause and Effect) then you probably don't pay taxes either. Is that right?

I would like to ask a general question. How does mental illness go along with these ideas? Perhaps you know someone who has or has had a type of mental illness...a depression, a bipolar illness, some other kind of disorder which affects that person's thoughts, emotions and behaviors. For some people it might be temporary and for others it might be a lifelong struggle. That person might do something to harm others after a mighty struggle with themselves that would seem herculean to you. Where does the line start? A small illness, a larger illness...how can a person possibly even begin to judge themselves or others without a much more profound understanding of our motivations than we currently have?

Sometimes it seems to me that we speak of all kinds of "karma" and "levels" when we can barely understand why we do what we do. I find it puzzling, after a long time on this planet.

It seems to me, yes, the self-searching can be a good thing, but in the end, I hope to find an afterlife which includes those sorts of beings who have a fuller understanding of all of "this" than I have found here on earth.

A related question regards people are who sociopaths, including serial killers who feel no remorse for their victims.  In fact they derive extreme pleasure from inflicting suffering on others.

So they die and go through the life review.  Supposedly this review requires the person to not only see the things he/she did while alive but to feel the emotional pain they caused in others. 

A great learning tool.....except for a sociopath who would no doubt get pleasure from knowing how much suffering he caused.  Seems to me the rationale for the life review is a great concept for quote/unquote "normal" people but for those who are mentally damaged I'm not so sure.

r

Hi Seagull,

If we are consciousness, and I think that we are, then this means that our consciousness is not "stored" in our brain.  The brain then becomes the means by which consciousness is constrained.  Someone with depression, bipolar, etc. simply has more constraints to work through than someone without these illnesses.  Bottom line is your intent when interacting with others and the environment.  This is what changes our inner being for better or worse.  Just because someone has a mental illness, including severe mental illness doesn't mean that they cannot choose loving intent over a fearful intent.  It may be more difficult to do so, but in my opinion these souls in most cases have chosen to make things more difficult for their own reasons based on what they feel will benefit them the most in their own personal evolution.  Though I imagine that may not always be the case.

Upon death, our consciousness is no longer constrained by our brains.  That doesn't mean that we know everything there is to know, but the limitation of the mental illness would no longer be present.

Not sure if this helps or not, but this is currently my understanding.

Kathy

I believe that a sociopath would have to learn about the value of respecting and caring for others before a life review would have value.

I also believe that all Souls have the ability to respect and care for others. 

That said, something would need to be done in order to remove a sociopath's resistance to viewing others with love and respect. It might be easier to do this when one is a spirit because it is possible to comprehend more when one isn't limited by a biological brain.  There is also the factor of how the energy of love includes not only a very positive feeling, but also wisdom.


rondele wrote on Dec 11^th, 2013 at 5:03pm:

A related question regards people are who sociopaths, including serial killers who feel no remorse for their victims.  In fact they derive extreme pleasure from inflicting suffering on others. So they die and go through the life review.  Supposedly this review requires the person to not only see the things he/she did while alive but to feel the emotional pain they caused in others.  A great learning tool.....except for a sociopath who would no doubt get pleasure from knowing how much suffering he caused.  Seems to me the rationale for the life review is a great concept for quote/unquote "normal" people but for those who are mentally damaged I'm not so sure. r

Mogen,

Read my last post carefully.  I believe Karma is a real force, like gravity - as long as we are on the see-saw side of life.  Push-pull, the polarity of opposites.

Quite simply, Karma is a Newtonian law of spirit.  For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction, spiritually.  So what you send out in thought to others comes back to you one way or another.  This is why, to some extent, a person's circumstances usually perfectly reflects their inner thought.  This takes a great deal of openness and contemplation - at least it has for me- to understand.

Once we get in touch with love, the foundation of our being, and stop acting out of ego related urges and fear, I believe we remove ourselves from the wheel of karma.  If love directs our thought and actions we send and give love out, and we transcend the polarity of opposites that fuels the karmic wheel.

M

With regard to sociopaths, and Roger's question I have thought much on this.  Sociopaths, in general are no different than souls stuck in hellish planes after death - only they are alive.  They don't have insight into their true nature or love.  I think the wrong interpretation here is that their "love" is to inflict pain (sadism), etc.

Actually, the sociopath deliberately closes their heart to love, pursuing an ego related pleasure.  So eventhough love is the true foundation of our spirit and nature, the sociopath, like a junkie gets a thrill from harming another and it serves some purpose for their own earthly ego (to make them feel superior, beautiful, better, etc.).   The ego really is what we develop in our personality while alive to survive on earth, but it is (unfortunately) for most of us the greatest stumbling block to getting in touch with love and our own spirit. 

So the sadist, somehow revels in the suffering of another to feed their earthly ego.  This does work for brief periods of time, but the soul is never really happy, and the personality seeks again and again to inflict pain on another in a futile attempt to avoid love.  The narcissist seeks attention for their looks, accomplishments, etc. to feed their earthly ego, and gets a temporary high from the earthly praise, but the feeling never lasts, so they need more and more attention. 

Sociopaths are simply people alive/incarnate feeding their own egos at the expense of others, never realizing that they are missing out on their fundamental nature (love). 

For other mental illness such as depression, bipolar disease or schizophrenia, there may be biological, mechanical or genetic abnormalities at play.  However, we, at our very core are consciousness/thought.  And much mental illness has to do with how we get caught up in repetetive cycles of thought related to our egos. 

What happens to a severely depressed person's consciousness when they leave their body?  I believe, for the most part that their consciousness remains the same, if their thought does.  This may sound cruel, but it is not.  When we are incarnated into a body, we separate ourselves from God and enter this world of opposites and egos, which Shakespeare described as "a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing."  We can let our thought get wrapped up in closed loops of anxiety or depression related to earthly events, or we can rid ourselves of the ego and open our hearts up to love.  If our intent is toward the former, we suffer with the afflictions of sadness; if it is toward the latter, we become happier and gain wisdom. 

My thoughts, for what it is worth.

Matthew

DocM wrote on Dec 11^th, 2013 at 11:45pm:

Mogen, Read my last post carefully.

Don't patronize me Doc.


DocM wrote on Dec 11^th, 2013 at 11:45pm:

I believe Karma is a real force, like gravity - as long as we are on the see-saw side of life.  Push-pull, the polarity of opposites. Quite simply, Karma is a Newtonian law of spirit.  For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction, spiritually.  So what you send out in thought to others comes back to you one way or another.  This is why, to some extent, a person's circumstances usually perfectly reflects their inner thought.  This takes a great deal of openness and contemplation - at least it has for me- to understand. Once we get in touch with love, the foundation of our being, and stop acting out of ego related urges and fear, I believe we remove ourselves from the wheel of karma.  If love directs our thought and actions we send and give love out, and we transcend the polarity of opposites that fuels the karmic wheel. M

I think that is no more dogmatic from what I have read in the books of JR.

So as for the dogma's that you are so concerned about I think you are pretty much as dogmatic as what I have read in those books.



Mogenblue

Not sure what you mean, Mogen.  First, I wasn't patronizing you.  My first post said that I felt karma was very real while we identify ourselves as separate from everything else and don't act out of PUL.  I therefore asked that you re-read my post since you said if I don't believe in karma, etc.....no bad intent on my side at least.  Sorry if you took it that way.

As to dogma, I don't say what I believe is the absolute truth, unlike some organized churches, systems etc.  For me, I do see karma as a fundamental force (sort of like gravity), which operates in its own sphere when we operate as individuals.  I do think also (again, my opinion, not dogma) that we free ourselves from karma by opening up our hearts. 

Hope that clarifies things, Mogen from my view.  I participate in the forum, and read, to listen to the views of others, such as yourself, and share.  I then try to synthesize my own worldview, as I feel that personal experience of consciousness is the key (for me), to both love and perception. 

If, sometimes my writing takes me to write in "absolutes," I will have to proof-read more, as I didn't mean to come off that way.

Matthew

DocM wrote on Dec 12^th, 2013 at 12:04am:

...My thoughts, for what it is worth. Matthew

What is worth more than teachings on love?    Only love itself.

Matthew speaks of true love.  And its good to see love referred to as love.

The most essential things for us to understand are love and self and truth. 

Our relationship to truth and love is the only relationship that matters.
If we look after that relationship then all our other relationships look after themselves.   

Some things are absolute, definite. And those who know them, by way of experience and living proof should not vague them down. The listener has freewill.

Some speak from experience/knowledge/proof - and these three words when used strictly should be interchangeable.
Some use pure reason, the weighing up of known facts.
Some use sensible conjecture, weighing presumed facts in the conscious knowledge that they are presumed, to test their fit with reasonableness, and wisely hold them lightly.
Others use false reason, the concocting and dressing of thought as reason to suit a preference, emotion or belief.
Most surmise, which is good, for it may stretch the mind and exercise imagination, but is only good when we know we are surmising. Otherwise it ventures into fantasy, a slipping from attachment with reality, which may lead to a disengagement from reality, which is insanity.
And of course we have all practiced all of these.
As long as we are conscious of what we do, and conscious of when we cross a border from one function to another, then we are fairly safe. That is honest observation of our self.

For it is a fact that venturing to recover souls by mystic means, leave the body, communicate with non-incarnate beings, and other such practices is occult science and craft, and requires precision handling of one's mental and emotional equipment, of one's consciousness in all its aspects, and of one's heart.
If we don't have precision handling of our equipment, and knowledge of our component parts, their functions and interactions, and we venture into occult craft then we are children playing with fire.      

Some who use this site are merely passing by the subject matter, or have not the force of mind and soul to press into its reaches, but some here have the qualities, can perceive or sense the angles, and have the strength to do. Usually in life the more skill and potency, the greater the mistake when it comes. 
       
This thread is about spiritual falls. Serious occult students should study how falls occur. 
Any one of us can so easily fall, and in any one of millions of ways. And should a fall occur, we will not see it coming, it will surprise us. And we will wonder how on Earth it happened. That's even if we are conscious of it.
There is no burden in all the universe greater than the burden of freewill. All other burdens are subject to it and just an exercise for it.
And freewill is always fallible, no matter what degree of competence it has achieved.
And people on this site are using their freewilled consciousness to delve into some of the most subtle, slippery and hazard prone regions that exist.
And we answer for our self. We cannot blame another for anything we say or do or think or feel. And no phantom spirit guide who we might have listened to will step up and take the blame for us. No employer, husband, wife, or partner, no parent, no one answers for our self except our self.
We of all people, if we are to make progress in this science and as souls in life, we must accept and fully understand this. Not a grain of unaccountability for our self is permitted to exist in us. Every thought, attitude and motive, we must watch and face, share with God, and correct it as we can.
Our conscience will have the final say to us and we to it, and if we are smart then as of now we will heed our conscience and our own best judgement. We accept our own freewill and all that that entails. 
 
We start off safe guarding our self by being honest to our self, facing our self and our surroundings as they are, without preference, fancy, or superimposition; and being conscious of our functions; proceeding carefully; and most of all including love to the maximum extent that we understand it and can move it through our heart, in all parts of our life, our thinking, speaking and acting.   

For the mechanically minded: Love-forgiveness is an energy that absolves the packages of thought-emotion that comprise the personality. These packages are energised each time they pass through our consciousness/soul. They are the mental-emotional-behavioural habits and inclinations of the personality, and their cycles are the driving pistons of the engine of consequence, what some call karma. These packages/constructions of ours and of others are absolved by love-forgiveness; their driving energy transmuted and their structure dispersed back to the elements, they are gone. What we forgive in others, we cure in ourselves, and relieve others of their struggle too. But always there is an imprint left, a susceptibility to slip back and re-create and re-energise the old package and its pattern/habit. Love-forgiveness must be maintained. Warning. What we do not forgive in someone else, the equal of that very thing we will commit our self, but for what we think is a different reason. For what we don't forgive in another, our thinking shapes it and strikes its note upon the vertical spectrum-keyboard of our soul, and due to the absence of forgiveness-light from heart, that note is struck in darkness, it resonates, the layers of mind, emotion, material move little by little to accommodate it, and eventually it will have its expression, regardless of our thinking we would not indulge it, yes we will. The pistons in our soul that drive the engine of consequence (what some call karma) cannot be stilled by anything but love-forgiveness.
The law of consequence is subject to the law of love. 

I cannot prove to others what I say. And saying how I know these things, counts for nothing and doesn't matter. I suggest the reader does not believe or disbelieve, but weigh it up yourself. Follow your conscience and best judgement. If something you read or hear correlates with your already acquired knowledge, or rings a note that resonates with your conscience, then tentatively hold it, lightly, test its compatibility with your conscience and best judgement, test it against reason, against love, then live it and prove it for yourself.

We are students of truth. There is no way forward but alone in responsibility and accountability, with help from others and by helping others yes, and with God yes, but in our responsibility and accountability we are alone. That comes with our freewill. 

crossbow
          

Hi Kathy and Doc-

So when we die do we, or do we not, shed those tendencies that marked us when we were alive?  I think Doc indicated we retain our mental state whereas Kathy indicated that since our mental state is brain based, we do not retain those tendencies (apologies to both if I misrepresented your positions).

I remember reading many years ago that deceased people who were addicted to alcohol or tobacco are attracted to places where these things are consumed (i.e. bars etc) just to vicariously enjoy what they can no longer consume.  Same things with sex addiction, they enjoy watching others engage in sex (as bruce has said, there is no such thing as privacy in the afterlife!).

My point is, do these addictions stay with the deceased, or do they go away?  Are they brain based (after all, some addictions are both biological and psychological in origin) and if so can we be free of them after death, or are part of who we really are, i.e. our consciousness.

r

Hi Roger,

I don't think Matthew and I disagree.  He perhaps went into more detail than I did.  What I meant is that a biological mental illness, and I include a sociopath in this category, just as a physical brain injury could, likely would, place a constraint on someone's consciousness.  Thus a person with such a handicap could, likely would, have a more difficult time making choices that are loving in nature. 

Certainly this can and does affect the state of their being for better or worse.  Once they let go of the body, the biological handicap is no longer present, however, the outcome of their choices and how those affected their personal consciousness would continue to be a part of their overall makeup at the being level.  Or in other words, the person would still have within their consciousness all that had transpired as a result of the mental illness, but the person would no longer be subject to the constraints that had been held within the brain because they no longer have a brain/body.  Does that make more sense?

Kathy

Hi Kathy-

Seems that the more I think about it the more complicated it gets.

Example- a child is born into a loving family, supportive parents, good educational system, good friends and healthy social interactions etc etc.

Something at some point goes awry.  He starts fantasizing about killing and how it would feel to take someone's life.  Outwardly he's the same person, no hints to tip off his parents or friends.

At some stage he decides to take a life.  Maybe starts with animals, and ultimately concocts a plan to do the same with someone where the odds of being caught are small....i.e. a homeless person.

Now his appetite is stoked.  He is unable to stop himself and becomes a serial killer.

So now the dilemma- a brain abnormality or something that was systemically imbedded in his DNA from day one?  Maybe a brain scan might reveal the cause, maybe not.  And DNA analysis is too far in the future to tell us anything now.

When he dies, who is he?  What distinguishes his spiritual character and identity?  His brain is dead, but we don't know the origin of his drives.  If the urge was there pre-birth (pre-conception??) and it just took time to take root, how do we discern who and what he is?

Of course this is a perfect example for those who subscribe to reincarnation.  He was a killer in his past life and those urges came with him in his next life. 

(I know Michael Newton claims helpers don't allow a new incarnation if they think the soul might continue with his evil ways but I'll disregard that for now).

It's almost like the chicken and egg argument.  In this example I'm leaning to the chicken......

Or maybe in his DNA was something inherited from a long dead ancestor and that gene came to life in the young boy.  Maybe memories can be inherited and if so can influence us in ways we have yet to understand.

r

Those who do not accept and understand freewill, and who try to be altruistic towards others, can do none other than make excuses for them.

Examples above.


crossbow

1796,

I just want to say, I read through your thoughtful post about love-forgiveness, and I must say much of it rings true to me.  It is a very subtle but vital knowledge --- to know that in our relationship toward another we must forgive their actions and look for the same unwanted aspect in ourselves and let love release it.  These are difficult concepts.  Our outer world or circumstance usually is a perfect reflection of our inner state.  Thus, with introspection or reflection we can see how our deepest thoughts have attracted certain life situations and circumstances to us.  We then, and only then can heal through love-forgiveness. 

1796, you stated it beautifully, and with a knowledge that makes me think you've had some experience with life and love.   Thank you for that post.

M

Roger,

My basic underlying theme is that we are pure thought, pure consciousness as our essence.  Although brain structure and chemistry play a role in disease, it is (to me) like a mechanical radio or TV - a receiver of consciousness.

Therefore, the postulation that a loving well meaning child will start killing animals and then become a serial killer due to a genetic predisposition, does not ring true  (to my way of thinking).  There is consciousness, intent and then manifestation in the physical world.  If we take the radio or television analogy, we may damage the device which plays and get static, or a distorted picture, but the actual broadcast (radio or television plot) would not be altered. 

Now I do think that a loving soul could be born into a circumstance such as a crime ridden part of the third world, where life is cheap, and be encouraged to take a life, kill, etc.   But the person is still fundamentally a person. If they did give into their surroundings and circumstance and kill,  they would know/feel that it was wrong.  They wouldn't keep on killing if their primary nature is loving.  They would feel a need to atone for what they did (one way or another) and to rehabilitate themselves or change their situation.  This is much akin to someone in an astral purgatory. 

Although I am a trained in medicine in the US, I do not believe that physical brain injury and/or neurochemical imbalance is the underlying cause of many psychiatric disorders.  I think that psychiatry denies the existence of spirit and spirituality, and that many neuroses and psychoses are directly related to a person's repetetive thought patterns that center around their earthly ego.  While neurochemistry may play a role here, it is much less importat than in understanding the thought patterns themselves, and the use of the person's intent, and free will to manifest their current life situation. 

M

Crossbow (1796)-

Your post is a keeper.  You warn about the same thing ES warned about 300 years ago.  More people need to take it to heart.

When we venture into the afterlife, whether it's with a ouija board or whether it's an attempt to retrieve someone, it's not a parlor game.  It's far more serious and, as ES repeatedly warned, the afterlife is not a benign place where you can wander around with no harm.

As he said and as you indicate, it's full of deception.  Souls who are most likely you'll encounter are those who are least evolved and much closer to the earth plane.  Easier therefore to make contact.

You might think you're getting guidance from dear departed Aunt Gladys but much more likely it's someone getting their jollies via their deception.  Some of it might be harmless trickery, some of it might be more malicious.

So ES said the best thing is to stay away.  He himself was fooled many times and yet I know of no one who explored the afterlife more extensively. 

Some people think they obtain verification that the person they retrieve is really who they think it is because they get information that no one else would know.  In some cases that might be true, in other cases not so much.  And "sending" PUL to malicious entities is a fool's errand.

My own opinion is that PUL is a state of being, but many people confuse it with an emotion.  A state of being cannot be "sent", it simply IS.  It underpins all of creation and is probably God Himself.

Crossbow, you eloquently point out that our outward circumstances reflect our inner consciousness.  Sort of another way of saying that we create our own reality.  And we do.

Some things escape my comprehension about this fundamental truth.  Example would be the kids at Sandy Hook, murdered at their desks a year ago today.  Obviously they didn't create the circumstances that led to their massacre, they were victims of someone else who, I guess, did create his own reality but at the expense of innocent children.

In any case, I will print out your post and keep it for reference.  So much wisdom in one post, thank you for putting it on the board.

r

Sure it's possible to communicate with unfriendly beings, but that doesn't mean it isn't also possible to communicate with friendly beings.

Certainly Swedenborg wasn't so special that he is the only person who has ever had the ability to communicate with friendly beings.

Regarding love, if you're in contact with a being and it radiates love and peace, well, chances are it is friendly. 

What if there was a person who never took the time to talk to people, and a person who spent a lot of time talking to people, both friendly and unfriendly? Which of these two people would be more likely to understand what talking to people is about?  Obviously the former.  Perhaps the same is true when it comes to people who communicate with spirits.  It can't be known what it is like if one hasn't spent time doing so.

It's important to remember that there are many beings that at the core aren't different and separate from us.  To remain separate from them is to some degree the same as remaining separate from the divine Oneness they are a part of.

I for one don't want to empower the unfriendlies by allowing them to determine whether or not I communicate with friendly spirit beings. If I were to do so the unfriendlies would win due to my lack of courage, faith in the friendly beings that exist, and myself.

Of course disrimination is always needed. How does one gain discrimination about things of this World? By using it. Perhaps the same is true when it comes to communicating with the spirit World.

What are people going to do after they die? They'll have no choice but to interact with spirit beings then.



rondele wrote on Dec 13^th, 2013 at 12:13pm:

Crossbow (1796)- Your post is a keeper.  You warn about the same thing ES warned about 300 years ago.  More people need to take it to heart. When we venture into the afterlife, whether it's with a ouija board or whether it's an attempt to retrieve someone, it's not a parlor game.  It's far more serious and, as ES repeatedly warned, the afterlife is not a benign place where you can wander around with no harm. As he said and as you indicate, it's full of deception.  Souls who are most likely you'll encounter are those who are least evolved and much closer to the earth plane.  Easier therefore to make contact. You might think you're getting guidance from dear departed Aunt Gladys but much more likely it's someone getting their jollies via their deception.  Some of it might be harmless trickery, some of it might be more malicious. So ES said the best thing is to stay away.  He himself was fooled many times and yet I know of no one who explored the afterlife more extensively.  Some people think they obtain verification that the person they retrieve is really who they think it is because they get information that no one else would know.  In some cases that might be true, in other cases not so much.  And "sending" PUL to malicious entities is a fool's errand. My own opinion is that PUL is a state of being, but many people confuse it with an emotion.  A state of being cannot be "sent", it simply IS.  It underpins all of creation and is probably God Himself. Crossbow, you eloquently point out that our outward circumstances reflect our inner consciousness.  Sort of another way of saying that we create our own reality.  And we do. Some things escape my comprehension about this fundamental truth.  Example would be the kids at Sandy Hook, murdered at their desks a year ago today.  Obviously they didn't create the circumstances that led to their massacre, they were victims of someone else who, I guess, did create his own reality but at the expense of innocent children. In any case, I will print out your post and keep it for reference.  So much wisdom in one post, thank you for putting it on the board. r

Roger,

iI've been overwhelmed with ministry issues and have long abandoned this site.  But I see that posters from my era of posting are posting again and I do want to stay in touch and resume dialogue with them.  The topic of "fallen angels" can be variously construed and I hope to address it from a variety of perspectives as I have the time.So in this post I will merely offer preliminary considerations.

(1) For esoteric subjects like this, we must know what we don't know and identify interpretative models that can best explain all the relevant facts and problems, For example, posssessed people report the  expeirences of confusing the memories of possessing human spirits with their own.  Why doesn't this apply to astral past life memories, which ES insists are nothing more than uncoscious mind mergers with dicarnate humans?  This fits well with the fact that children with past life  recall at tmies "remember" a life as a  person  who is still alive at the time of the child's birth!

(2) Then we must duscern ways to test (verify or discredit) eacn assumption embedded in these models.

(3) Interpretive models that can best be tested should be preferred to minimize the need for blind faith. 

(4) The principles of consciousnes tht apply to us in this life might apply in analgous ways in the next life.   For example, if evolution drives the engine of life in this life, why not provisionally assume that this is also true in the next life?  If moral regression is possible in this life, ehy not also in the next life?  If free will implies the ability to choose contrary to strong immoral impulses and desires in this life, why not in the next?  Hence, the possibility of fallen angels or discarnate spirits. 


Don

Don- So glad to see you here, and hope this is just the beginning of many posts to come.

I am intrigued about your thesis on afterlife evolution and look forward to hearing more about it.

Welcome back!

I have a few more words to share but I am afraid of being accused to constrain this thread by 'my dogma's'. And that is the last thing I want to do.
DocM is very suspicious about anything he doesn't know or hasn't experienced for himself.

I don't feel comfortable with that so I think it's better for me stop here and not go any further.


Strange enough if someone like BobMonroe utters his nonsense overhere then DocM has no problem with that at all.
He even states it is impossible to master love and light at all.


So what's the point to continue? I think it's best for me to stop my contributions as from here. Saves me a lot of non sense interactions.
I've had enough of this.



Goodbye

Troublesome discarnate spirit beings are of little concern to the spiritual searcher. The weak ones are ineffective, the potent and dangerous ones target only particular individuals, not the average spiritual searcher.   

More significant are the live (incarnate) humans who are leading people astray.


crossbow

Quote:

Goodbye

http://goo.gl/R5RkWy

Mogen,

I for one would love to hear what you have to say - so long as you tell us what is on your mind.  I don't really mind you quoting Rulof's system or theology, but I am more interested in your own personal thoughts and experiences.  Otherwise, we get sort of a "cut and paste" conversation, where we are being told "this is so because this person (Rulof) says it, and here is the reference." Yawn.

I did in fact say we don't master love and light, because the whole notion of a "master" is the antithesis to what love is all about for me.  Love is, to me, a primal force continually flowing to us that we can allow and flow with or block (as many of us do).  So to become a "master" of love, and a master over others goes against my own experience and pereption of what love is all about.  But hey, that is my take on it. 

If you are a passionate advocate for Rulof's belief system, that is your choice.  But in the forum, I think you'll find many of us are most interested in your own experiences, thoughts and responses - that was what I was trying to get across. 

Ultimately, you will decide if you will contribute or not to the forum.  My own dislike of dogmatic adherence to another's exploration shouldn't dissuade you from speaking your mind.  I like to discuss things and not be told by anyone "this is the structure of the afterlife because so and so says so."  You are welcome to believe so and post to that effect. 

As to Bob's silliness, I read through the lines.  He is perhaps the most ardent supporter of individual choice and free will on the forum.  His philosophy seems to be live and let live.  And he couches much of what he writes in humor - obtuse, silly or otherwise - so I respect where he comes from.  He is not above pointing out what he believes are inconsistecies to any of us when he thinks we are getting too preachy or hlolier-than-thou including many of the most senior members of this forum (including Bruce). 

But don't take any of this stuff personally.  And do stay, if you are inclined to do so.

Matthew

Mogen-

I second what Matthew said.  Yes there are some people whose only agenda on the board is to write sarcastic and negative posts, and for those folks their absence would be certainly welcome.

You are not in that group.  I find your posts sincere and definitely worth reading.  I especially appreciated your post about your life and the problems you had in growing up.  Know that you are not alone in dealing with things of that kind.  We all have our burdens of one type or another.

I agree with Matthew in that I don't think there is only one source worth paying attention to.  At one time I thought Seth was the be-all and end-all in terms of afterlife knowledge.  No more.  And at another time I thought I found the ultimate answer when I read A Course in Miracles.  No more.  I've come to have a healthy distrust of channeled material.

I don't disparage your belief in Rulof, that's your decision.  As long as you don't expect others to take what he says as "truth" with a capital t, I for one don't want you to leave the board.

r

Hello Crossbow.


1796 wrote on Dec 10^th, 2013 at 8:16am:

Hello Frits.                      Do you believe there is such a thing as a spiritual fall? And if so, do you think that one way such a fall may come about is by misuse of sex? What does your conscience think? crossbow  (Hello Recoverer, Kathy, Carl, and others. I hope you are all well.)

Quote:

I second what Matthew said.  Yes there are some people whose only agenda on the board is to write sarcastic and negative posts, and for those folks their absence would be certainly welcome.

Rondele, the first point was about being accused to constrain the thread of dogmas. Mogen feeling blue about different opinions being the reason to stop posting comes off as the stance of a victim. This isn't a congregation were everybody agrees with everything. Such is this board, and life on earth. Not agreeing with something is negative. Saying no to something is negative. Sure enough negative sentiments can be worded to conform to certain conditions.

You eye the elements of sarcasm and negative posts, make that the only agenda since leaving out what the posts actually contain. I've read negative posts of yours where sarcasm was used to great effect - but negative & sarcasm alone leaves a whole lot out of what you wrote.

Don't worry about the absence of folks, after all we are masters of light who have overcome our lower traits. Don't mind the gap. Or do, that works too.

Roger, I agree.  It is complicated or at the very least complex because there are so many variables.  There are so many choices that are available to an individual at every moment in time and when discussing mental illness, while we are able to list general symptoms, there are so many degrees to these.

Take a sociopath for example, which in my opinion is little understood, but society in general carries a belief that a sociopath is one that has a malicious intent to harm others and that they are evil people.  Certainly this can be the case, but not always.  A sociopath doesn't necessarily have malicious feelings toward others.  In fact, they actually have very little feeling at all for other people and this is why they have a difficult time forming attachments to others and thereby treat others as objects.  The consequence of this behavior can without a doubt be malicious, however a sociopath's intention is not necessarily malicious.  Remember it is our intent beneath an action that determines how our being is changed.  Not the action in and of itself.

Most of us have human feelings/morals that stem from a deep sense of social obligation.  We form emotional attachments easily. While a sociopath is capable of emotion, they do not form attachments in the same way as most of us do.  We don't know if a sociopath is born that way, but research has attributed about half of the cause of sociopathy can be explained through genetic influences and the other half is attributed to a mixture of environmental factors.  So at this current time it appears there are both genetic as well as environmental factors that make up a sociopathic personality.

Some sociopaths can be highly productive members of society, educated, and very charismatic even though they lack empathy for others.  Still they are able to within a small group of family/friends they are capable of forming affectionate, if not loving relationships that may include a moral code within that group.  In society, while the moral code may not be emotionally felt, it can exist as a belief system such as in the teachings of a religion, you shall not steal, murder, lie, etc. that guides them through life within a society.  In this respect, a sociopath may be able to be motivated by a caring/loving intent and thereby change his/her consciousness at the being level in positive ways.  Again, it is our intent that directly affects our consciousness at the being level.


Quote:

When he dies, who is he? What distinguishes his spiritual character and identity? His brain is dead, but we don't know the origin of his drives. If the urge was there pre-birth (pre-conception??) and it just took time to take root, how do we discern who and what he is?

To answer your question, if it is true that a sociopath is the result of a combination of genetic and environmental factors, this means that the consciousness he/she was before birth will be the same consciousness after death.  Of course, there may be some modifications made by the individual's intent that motivated his/her choices, but essentially the consciousness could be one that is highly evolved level of being, and chose such a limitation for their ELS learning experience.  A tough choice perhaps, but a thought occurs that someone that has difficulty with attachments may want to have the experience of not having attachments.  LOL... some days I'd like to have the experience of not having attachments!  And, thinking of Don's thread, why wouldn't it be possible that a highly evolved being would choose to incarnate with the intent of evolving/changing genetic code with his/her consciousness in the field, which of course is non-physical?  In a sense, isn't that what Jesus did?

Of course there's the other dangerous sociopathic side of the coin, and every possible scenario in-between, which I won't go into for the sake of brevity.

Kathy

PS  Finally had time to read the rest of this thread:

Hello Crossbow!  Love your post!

Mogenblue, I, too, hope you will stay!  :)

rondele wrote on Dec 14^th, 2013 at 12:36pm:

... there are some people whose only agenda on the board is to write sarcastic and negative posts, and for those folks their absence would be certainly welcome.

I disagree. Its a public forum, and I'm happy for anyone to be here - including the rude, the sarcastic, the so-called negative, even the phoneys.

crossbow

1796 wrote on Dec 16^th, 2013 at 12:15am:

rondele wrote on Dec 14th, 2013 at 12:36pm: ... there are some people whose only agenda on the board is to write sarcastic and negative posts, and for those folks their absence would be certainly welcome. I disagree. Its a public forum, and I'm happy for anyone to be here - including the rude, the sarcastic, the so-called negative, even the phoneys. crossbow

         Would it be different if we were all gathered together  in the  kitchen or the  living room of your home?

Griffin wrote on Dec 16^th, 2013 at 1:04am:

1796 wrote on Dec 16th, 2013 at 12:15am: rondele wrote on Dec 14th, 2013 at 12:36pm: ... there are some people whose only agenda on the board is to write sarcastic and negative posts, and for those folks their absence would be certainly welcome. I disagree. Its a public forum, and I'm happy for anyone to be here - including the rude, the sarcastic, the so-called negative, even the phoneys. crossbow          Would it be different if we were all gathered together  in the  kitchen or the  living room of your home?

No. I would be the same.
Though I might occasionally excuse myself and leave you to each other.

  Re: lust and some of the things Recoverer have been talking about, going by my experiences and guidance, i'm mostly in agreement. 

  But i also agree that it wouldn't be a helpful goal for most to try to "overcome" sex drive, attachment to lust, etc nor that such is necessarily necessary. 

  Too often, repression becomes a part of such a focus and that can be counter productive, or limiting belief systems or habits developed. 

    The way i've come to look at is this.  Sexual energy is both of the earth and of primal consciousness.  Lust, the hormonal drive is the earthly aspect.  The urge to merge with others is the consciousness or spiritual aspect.  I'm not sexually, lustfully attracted to other men, but i've felt the attraction or desire to merge with other men before.  It's an aspect of love. 

  This can be experienced, and "translated" physically via sexual experience with another.  It CAN be a creative, expanding activity.  But how often is more on that level?  In my observation, often the very earthly and slower vibrating (limiting) activities of lust, fear (wanting to be found attractive, material loneliness, seeking fulfillment in another, etc,) are strongly involved with sexual activity. 

   So often, it's more of a mixed bag (certainly, it seems to be rare for it to be fully a freeing and expanding activity).

  But i've been shown that there is another way, some of this has been through direct experience, and some from guidance and intuition. 

  For example, in the relationship of the body to that of consciousness, as T.C. would say, we exist in a focus wherein there are rule sets, set up, a certain kind of structure with it's own innate reactions, relationships, etc, some of which are very probable in nature. 

   Relating this to our bodies, one can think of it in the metaphorical terms of "chakras".  In reality, it relates more to the endocrine glandular hormonal system. 

  Sexual energy as connected to the body is very powerful stuff.  It has a lot of energy potential.  That energy is neither inherently positive or negative, it's just potential, it's "force" so to speak.

   What happens with most, in most cases, is that energy builds up in the body, and either needs a release of some kind, repressed, or can be positively redirected. 

   Release is usually sexually related, and when lust, hormonal drives, with any degree of lack of love is involved, that energy gets dissipated at point of release (usually somewhere within the first 4 main centers) and doesn't create a coherent connection to the other "higher" centers in the body (higher meaning a more expanded activity, or connecting to a more free, Love attuned consciousness and dimension, which actually happen to correlate to "higher" in the body, or "upper" towards the head with the heart as a focal or balancing center point between the earthly and the spiritual).

   But, through deep, love centered meditation particularly, this energy can become more directed, or channeled through all of the centers, creating a unified, balanced connection between all the centers, energizing and vivifying them. 

   When this happens, changes can happen in the body according to the rule sets in which consciousness interacts with the body/physical. 

   It raises the vibrations of the body itself, and attunes it more closely to that of the consciousness. It's like tuning an instrument to a master player.  If the energy is cycling through all centers to the Pituitary (the glandular center most directly connected to those most expanded feelings, awareness's, etc), it can and will lead to loss of sex drive in the normal, or hormonal sense.  There can still be "general" attraction to others, but not in the sexual, hormonal sense. 

  Other changes can be slowing down or stopping of aging, strengthening the body vitality and balancing, basically increasing the "Qi" as some call it. 

   But, do most people "need" to do this.  Nah, and it's probably not a good idea to attempt unless you're so directed to from within.  In probability, you won't be directed from within, until you are near the consciousness of Love divine where you given the choice and asked, do you want to devote all of yourself and your will to becoming fully one with Love and the creative forces, or continuing to fool around yo yoing back and forth.  The huge majority of individuals aren't even close to being at this point in their development in a probable sense in this lifetime.

  However, this is what the man Yeshua experienced, and as the pattern of spiritual perfection in the Earth, his redirection of this powerful energy within the body, sped up the transformation process of him coming to experience what some call the Light body (misnamed really), which is simply him taking control of all aspects of his energy system as related to physical, mental and Soul, via what some call Spirit--that of Consciousness, of Love and creative Will.  All of it came under the power of Love, of creative Will, of Spirit.  He came to experience the reality of being in the world, but no longer of it. 

   Could he have completed this process having had a wife, lovers, kids, etc?   Possibly, but some of the ancient Taoists intuited some of these truths so long ago, but got too caught in the "goal" and the physical transformation part, while he was focused on becoming the clearest channel of Light and PUL he could be.  Everything else was a side effect.  He was only concerned with having the most constructive and creative effect upon others and the Whole. 

      In more simple short terms, the more you match your wavelengths with that of the earthly earth, the more you tend to limit yourself, because the physical earth is THAT of FEAR and separation, which is why that consciousness is so strong, pervasive, and collective here.  Why it's so hard for an individual to be the full Light being that they are. 

It both evolved or developed that way, and to another extent, limits were deliberately imposed for learning experiences.  To some extent, these went hand in hand.  As one uses their freewill, and gets further from Source in their consciousness, the more they need an environment to remind and challenge and present "consequences" to wake them up and at the same time the more they co-create a limiting environment/dimension, aka the "hells" that some talk of.   

  The physical earth is somewhat unique in that it's both a deliberately created structure or stream of info (with a positive, expanding intention), and also to some extent like a temporal hell, co created from a collective direction of activity and choice. 

  So no, the sex drive, and sexual desire, etc, is not "wrong", however it is innately limiting from a purely spiritual perspective except to facilitate bodies (channels) for experience in this focus.  That is it's most creative aspect.

  In the future, humans will not need or require such activity to co-create bodies within the earth.  It will be more direct thought to physical manifestation. 

  This is also what happened with Miriam, Yeshua's mother.  They were the far future, in our somewhat ancient past.  Likewise are those like Recoverer, the future in the present to a lesser extent. 

  In this world though, because of like attracts and begets like, most are not attracted to the very expanded sources of info, but pick and choose according to their general and average resonation, closer to home so to speak.

  This tendency can be overcome with conscious awareness of the tendency and knowledge of how (reciprocal) reality is set up.  If one appeals to and directs focus to the most expanded, most Love attuned, etc, then one may get glimpses and attractions beyond these typical reactions, attractions, perceptions, etc.

  But how many in this world seek thusly?  It answers itself, most are content with themselves and those like themselves and thus does humanity evolve rather slowly and in a very yo yo manner.  As Yeshua said so long ago, most of humanity is afraid of the Light, and revels in the absence and prefers the seeming dark (lower degree of Light).  The more intense and pure the Light, the more most of us shy away from same. 

  Which is why the real Yeshua, separate from religion, church, mainstream beliefs, etc, is so little focused on and sought.  He represents the very most expanded of that potential within us, our highest selves reflected purely back to us.  So we remain content with the Moens, Monroes, Cayce's, Bruce's, TC's, etc of the world.  Nothing "wrong" with that either, but ultimately still limiting if one would be truly free. 

   

Justin (a channel):

Thank you for what you wrote. I'd like to add that I'm not in relationship. That being the case, the only way in which I can engage in sexual activity is if I fantasize about a woman I am not involved with.

I do not believe that would be a good thing to do because if I did so I would energetically connect myself to a lady that hasn't given me permission to do so. It is hard to imagine that love would have anything to do with such an activity.

I also wouldn't want to do something such as watch a film of people having sex, because regardless of whether some form of exploitation has taken place,  love would have nothing to do with such an activity and I would be connecting myself to an energy level, a way of being, that isn't worth connecting to.   

True Dat. 

Recoverer,

I believe, to some extent it is we, as individual points of consciousness which attach meaning to an activity.  Thus, for a long time, sex has been considered as a negative primal urge to be overcome.  I like what A Channel (Justin) has to say about it. 

I find that sex is tied up both to the earth as Justin said, but also to the ego.  But only because that is my tradition, and how I was raised.  I have never been part of a culture where sex is taken for what it is, and not made into a personal part of each person's own psyche.  So If I were in an ashram where they practiced tantric yoga, and sex was seen as common place and not something "private," perhaps the meanings I attach to sex would be different.

It is we who give the actions of ourselves or others meaning, and we are free to change our thoughts about the meaning of our actions.  Sometimes, we don't always grasp this - at least I know I don't always get it. 

Matthew

Doc:

I'm certain you understand that if one took an approach of moral relatavism, then just about any action can be thought of in terms of the meaning one attaches to such action.

Sexual energy is quite a different thing than divine love and can be quite captivating.  We define our being by what we are captured by.  Not all of the things we can be captivated by are equal. Some delude and limit us more than others.

Here's another way to put it. Can you imagine a person who still has sexual desires merging with the light (God)?  I say this isn't possible because divine love and oneness don't go along with lust.

I've found that the more I've let go of limiting thought patterns and ways of being, the more I've been able to connect with the light.  If I want to do so more, then perhaps I need to overcome the sex-drive as much as is possible.

It is also a matter of not wanting to be a slave to body-based thought patterns.




DocM wrote on Dec 16^th, 2013 at 4:41pm:

Recoverer, I believe, to some extent it is we, as individual points of consciousness which attach meaning to an activity.  Thus, for a long time, sex has been considered as a negative primal urge to be overcome.  I like what A Channel (Justin) has to say about it.  I find that sex is tied up both to the earth as Justin said, but also to the ego.  But only because that is my tradition, and how I was raised.  I have never been part of a culture where sex is taken for what it is, and not made into a personal part of each person's own psyche.  So If I were in an ashram where they practiced tantric yoga, and sex was seen as common place and not something "private," perhaps the meanings I attach to sex would be different. It is we who give the actions of ourselves or others meaning, and we are free to change our thoughts about the meaning of our actions.  Sometimes, we don't always grasp this - at least I know I don't always get it.  Matthew

Albert,

Recently, through personal revelations, I have found that  there is a difference between moral relativisim and opening oneself up to questioning hindering beliefs.  For myself, I have decided I believe that morality is not relative, but defined by how often we open ourselves to love in our thoughts and actions.  For me, this basic question defines "right" and "wrong" action, though I understand the relativists' argument that there is no right or wrong in a different sense.

We are bound by chains of our own making - our belief systems.  We don't question our deepest most secure beliefs, but if we are honest with ourselves, there should be nothing to fear in both questioning the beliefs, and changing our thought and associations if it can be for the better.

Sex can be associated with primal urges, romantic love, etc. and can be sacred between just husband and wife, or open and free in a "swinger society" or used in some types of yoga and practiced regularly.  Sex is not bad in and of itself, because it doesn't have to lead us away from love (not romantic love, but real love). 

If sex does cause pain for either person involved emotionally or physically, then the outcome may be unloving.  But you assume that this merging of bodies and physical pleasure will, by nature pull a perosn away from the path of love.  Why?  It is because of associations and values a person ascribes to sexuality.  These associations have to do with the way we were raised, and may be examined like any belief system. 

M

We can either:

1.      Drop out of this planetary school any time we choose. Or,

2.      Persevere to solve its problems, overcome it tests, and thus fully unfold and realise ourselves, and leave with full graduation and the benefits thereof.

Of course part of reaching graduation requires that we dissolve all our emotional interpersonal bonds by right use of true love, which does not bind but sets free.

All interpersonal emotional exchanges create interpersonal bonds, which are a cyclic pattern of mutual energy interaction that draws souls together repeatedly until the energy cycle is dissolved. The more intense exchanges between people create the stronger bonds. Energies exchange and interlock. Just as an individual’s personality patterns are cyclic packages of energy, so too a couple’s interactive patterns are cyclic, half of each mutual package stored in each of them when apart, draws them together by attractive charge and exact fit, and is released, recycled and re-energised upon contact and interaction.

Sexual encounters create the strongest bonds. That has nothing to do with meaning or interpretation; it’s a mechanical fact and is either known or not. In sex a ripple runs the length of the male’s soul-thread from base to crown, through all centres, and releases all his packages of energy / personal mental-emotional inclinations from all centres, and the female takes them on, from every sexual encounter and semblance thereof. It goes from him to  her because he releases it (+) and she's receptive (–) to it. She then releases some of this taken up energy at her period time which is absorbed and processed by the planet, except at times when the planet is due for her own period and she’s bloated and can’t attract and take up all the female energy, and then much of that energy stays in the females causing difficulties. The female releases more if she gives birth which goes into the child, along with hers, but much of his energy/personality inclinations remains in her and is expressed and circulated as part of her personality inclinations.

Her love-forgiveness as a wife for her husband and his flaws, and as a sister to other men and women, is the only thing that dissolves these energies in her self and frees her from a type of madness that it causes. A couple’s mutual love-forgiveness dissolves each other’s energetic packages and prevents enmeshment and prevents her taking up his personality faults converting them to her female expressive equivalent. This and much more is visible to some. But I’m digressing. 

The more and stronger bonds we have and thus the more emotionally entangled with others we are, the more work we have to do to graduate from this planetary school.

But that doesn’t matter if we intend to drop out without graduating.
But two things make dropping out difficult to do and tend to pull us back into incarnation.
They are the attraction like a static charge of the interpersonal bonds themselves to meet again and circulate to express and energise themselves; and our sense of wanting to dissolve them before we go.
If we want to drop out we must disregard undissolved bonds / unfinished business and go.
Another soul with similar issue, a stand in, will take our place in that bond. 

There is a third option:

3.      We can just muddle along, neither dropping out nor pursuing graduation, just keep living entangled lives of interpersonal enmeshment, artificial drama and fantasy, driven mainly by jealousy and hatred and the consequences thereof forever.

And if we want to, we can even look good while doing it by raising our selfish and emotional solar plexus energies, without transmuting them, up to the heart centre's left chamber, and in so doing blocking off the heart centre's central opening through which is expressed true love-forgiveness and the true descending virtues. Then we get to be rotten while looking and feeling good. (Eccl. 10:2) We can then indulge in all sorts of apparent goodness, such as “loving” promiscuity, anti-truthism, Godless altruism, Christless love, moral relativism, self-centred caring, image conscious compassion, rational irrationalism, emotional idealism, and all forms of leftism, for another 2000 years, or for as long as we wish. And most won't be able to see who we really are. We will even fool ourselves. And we can bait and recruit the naïve. (Inherent within Christendom is its anti-thesis.)

So it’s just a personal choice thing really. 

For those who do wish to graduate:

Christianity, and its doctrines and customs, including its marriage model, is an accelerated graduation system.

 
Do bear in mind that I might be making all this up, or I might not be.

We are all together on our own in finding truth. 

crossbow

  Speaking from experience.  I'm married, and my wife and i occasionally have sex.  Certainly i enjoy it, and it is a bonding experience, but isn't personal love kind of limited? 

  Aren't we ultimately here to learn and remember Universal Love?   No amount of personal bonding and personal love will ever fully grow a person's Soul to that Source like Love.

   Here is what i know from experience.  There was a period wherein i was very disciplined with deep, long meditation for a time.  During that time period, lot of the meditations were very deep and expanding in nature.   Tuned into a lot of love, and very expanded consciousness states.

    It was like a switch got flipped at one point, i went from having a somewhat normal sex drive, to not having any at all during this period. 

    BUT, instead of missing it, it was replaced with something else, and i felt very alive, very aware, and more complete within self.  In short, it was a very pleasurable experience, that was fairly constant.

    Honestly, that state of being is much, much more preferable to my typical one, which i'm back in (because i'm a meditation slacker).  In a way, i think i'm a bit crazy for not trying to get back to and maintaining that state of being. 

     As has been mentioned, there isn't necessarily anything ethically wrong with sex and all that. 

  More, think of it in terms of a type of energy physics.  Sexual energy is potent potential energy.  If redirected with the intention of connecting and merging more with Source, the Oneness, and Universal Love, rather than bodies or with personal love, it can really help to activate those more expanded centers in the body which connect to expanded consciousness states.

   Again, this is not abstract theory, but based on experience.  It's also to some extent outlined in one of the more accurate psychic works out there, Cayce's. 

  Crossbow, do you think Yeshua was married and a sexually inclined human, or do you think he was celibate and redirected that energy for a higher purpose?

    Is he, or isn't he the ultimate pattern?  Perhaps someone like Recoverer is at the point in his growth, that he is ready to follow in his footsteps, and willing to let go of limitations and hindrances which keep him from fully doing that?

 

wrote on Dec 17^th, 2013 at 12:44am:

...    Crossbow, do you think Yeshua was married and a sexually inclined human, or do you think he was celibate and redirected that energy for a higher purpose?     Is he, or isn't he the ultimate pattern?  Perhaps someone like Recoverer is at the point in his growth, that he is ready to follow in his footsteps, and willing to let go of limitations and hindrances which keep him from fully doing that?

he he, you're putting the pressure on me Justin.

Was Jesus married? In myself I know this answer, but can only vaguely grasp it. The answer is both yes and no. Married in a sense most cannot comprehend and only a few can barely comprehend. And unmarried in a sense most cannot comprehend and only a few can barely comprehend. Marriage completed, rare and in the highest sense. And the first of its time. But not as he would have appeared married, as we know it, to anyone observing.

My understanding on marriage, its idea, its workings, its purpose, is still in wordless and pictureless form.
Too overwhelming for my mind and heart to fully perceive.
I can see its horizons, its greater features, but it goes further.
Some things are so hard to hold and feel like they will burst the brain and heart.
Some things can only be fathomed when we disengage our self from the physical, and when we settle back in and our poor brain and heart cannot receive it, and we only have the memory of something vaster than we can grasp, with only a few of its landmark features, qualities, and vaguely its purpose.   

I refer to Christian marriage - one man, one woman, under one God, in one love, till death.

Marriage is something as follows; the words are vague pointers only, not in sequence, and may seem contradictory even superficial because they are in comparison to the  subject matter.
Marriage is:
•  A vessel of mutual soul growth.
•  A partnership of progress through the system.
•  Is part of the Christian Accelerated Graduation System (Christianity), one God, one life and one chance, one saviour - love-forgiveness, and its teacher Jesus.
•  Marriage love ranges from self centred bodily love eventually through to identical to the Christ love, but contained within the marriage.
•  The marriage replicates Christ.
•  The marriage dissolves other interpersonal/intersoul enmeshments.
•  One wife, one husband, for one life prevents creating other enmeshments.
•  When the marriage is lived right, pre Christian era enmeshments and post Christian era enmeshments of other marriages are gradually, life by life or even in one life, eliminated, so that the couple have one marriage, life after life.
•  Marriage love-forgiveness cures character flaws in self and the other; makes each other perfect, in their sight, in understanding, and in actuality. Love and forgiveness cures.
•  Christian marriage is scaled down model in which to develop and exercise Christ love, then to apply it outside of the model. 
•  Only the wife/husband is loved as the wife/husband.
•  The love of brothers and sisters models the Christ love for all persons.
•  The love of parents for children, love of children for parents, love of and from grand parents, each of these loves is a model for Christ love outside the marriage.
•  The Christian living plus the Christian marriage or the Christian single life, is the system.

Some on the Nature of love and false love
All existence/creation exists in the mind of God, and love is what comes from the heart of God, and is for the creation, as a beacon to guide particles of consciousness back at their own pace, though they never get there because creation is not God but part of God and so the number of creation is 0.999999 infinitum. And there is a spirit of love for Earth, called Christ, and Jesus lived and demonstrated it in full capacity. If our love is love, and not emotional false love, then it is not our love, it is the spirit of love for earth moving through our heart. All true love is the circulation of this spirit through hearts, and it purifies them. It is a living thing, conscious, communicates with man, only in his heart, is obedient to man, within the limits of its own purpose and what it is good for man. As love is the draw of God upon life, then any thing asked of God in love's name if possible is granted, because doing so aligns us with the draw of God, which is our destiny.

There is no love that denies Christ and the teachings of Jesus, because he taught love. Those who cringe from the name of the Lord of Hearts and try to exceed him with an alternative goodness are fakes. If you want to spiritually fall, follow them. They like words like equality, egalitarianism, compassion, non-judgemental, humanitarianism, but watch their eyes and colours change at the mention of the name of the Lord of Hearts. They hide hatred behind an image of caring. Look at their history, see them in mass when they get total control, they murder the very minority groups they seduced to help them gain power, and they will again. Even now watch the homosexuals, the poor, the unemployable, falling for their charm just as they have before. Watch the naïve get seduced, thinking they are amongst the good people. John warned us of them. They are one and many. They arose as opposition and competition with the arrival of the Lord of Hearts, because they hate truth and love. Christianity is a divided kingdom. Every western country, every institution, even the church, every school of thought, every individual is divided left and right. A line runs down the centre of our souls, unique to western souls. It cleaves our hearts, give our hearts their power for love and their evil. It is the western heart. Jesus told us he would divide us and he has, right through our hearts and through every part of us. Every person who  has been exposed to Jesus' teachings in this life or another is such divided. Non Christian races and no non-Christianised persons have such division in their souls, and their institutions do not divide. They are collective people, lacking freewill to the same extent. Their societies roll instead of walk. They do not hate as much nor love as much as we. They are driven to hate by jealousy. But the haters that arose in Christendom who  deny and cringe from their Christianity have pure hatred of truth and hatred of true love and their main tool of manipulation to motivate others to hate too is to incite their jealousy and envy, and their victimhood, indignance, and false superiority. The powerful haters in the west, in and of Christendom, with their powerful split hearts seduce others into hatred and convince them they are caring to make them allies against Christendom. 

Reader, don't believe me or trust me, don't trust spirits, go see for yourself, leave your body, circulate the Earth, look down on the colours of the auras of the races and the nations, their institutions, and the collective individuals of the world. Look at the conflict lines on the world. Look at the masses, the leaders and the focal points of conflicts. Look at the range of colours of hearts and souls. See where and who are the brightest souls on Earth, see where and who are the darkest souls on Earth. Surprised? Not quite as you thought? Doesn't make sense? How can it be? Your sense of right and wrong, good and evil, scrambling in your head? Extend/dip down into the colours of the hearts and souls of the people and races of the world, immerse yourself in the colours and feel their flavours, their motives and intents, their characters, if you can stand it and retain your sanity. Perhaps you will see for yourself that I'm wrong ... or right.


crossbow

The true opposition to good is not apparent evil but apparent good.

Hmm, i happen to think that marriage between man and man and woman and woman is just as valid of a marriage as between a man and a woman..

  But, i guess i might be one of those not apparently evil, leftists sort of. 

;)  ;D

I tend to be somewhat liberal myself, I suppose when going by that last post by Crossbow.  For me, love transcends gender, and I wouldn't condemn any loving relationship between two men, two women, etc. 

Nor would I say that the billions of non-christians, many of whom find a path to love (which is the essence of the gospels) without the name of Christ are evil or off base.  I think Christ's message of love is what is important, not the adherence to a human text or language per se.  But hey, that is just my take on it. 

M

Doc:

I get what you're saying, I've considered those points before.

One might ask, "How is sharing a candlelight dinner with one's loved one any different than having sex as long as love is involved?"

Well, lust doesn't need to be active in order to share a candlelight dinner. When I've had sex with a girlfriend I felt a lot of love and respect for her, but I also felt lust, otherwise I could not of functioned sexually.

In order to be able to function sexually, we have to allow for sexual desire to be a part of who we are, otherwise we couldn't get sexually excited.

Consider it this way. We aren't 3d body-based beings. Rather we are energetic beings that can connect to different energy levels at the same time. If a part of us connects to the lust level, and a part of us connects to the divine love level, our energy is pulled in two different directions.

On the other hand, if we let go of one in favor of the other, then we get to be with the energy level we give preference to more completely.

Regarding repression, if you love one thing more than the other, repression doesn't continue to be a factor.






DocM wrote on Dec 16^th, 2013 at 8:58pm:

Albert, Recently, through personal revelations, I have found that  there is a difference between moral relativisim and opening oneself up to questioning hindering beliefs.  For myself, I have decided I believe that morality is not relative, but defined by how often we open ourselves to love in our thoughts and actions.  For me, this basic question defines "right" and "wrong" action, though I understand the relativists' argument that there is no right or wrong in a different sense. We are bound by chains of our own making - our belief systems.  We don't question our deepest most secure beliefs, but if we are honest with ourselves, there should be nothing to fear in both questioning the beliefs, and changing our thought and associations if it can be for the better. Sex can be associated with primal urges, romantic love, etc. and can be sacred between just husband and wife, or open and free in a "swinger society" or used in some types of yoga and practiced regularly.  Sex is not bad in and of itself, because it doesn't have to lead us away from love (not romantic love, but real love).  If sex does cause pain for either person involved emotionally or physically, then the outcome may be unloving.  But you assume that this merging of bodies and physical pleasure will, by nature pull a perosn away from the path of love.  Why?  It is because of associations and values a person ascribes to sexuality.  These associations have to do with the way we were raised, and may be examined like any belief system.  M

1796 wrote on Dec 16^th, 2013 at 1:52am:

Griffin wrote on Dec 16th, 2013 at 1:04am: 1796 wrote on Dec 16th, 2013 at 12:15am: rondele wrote on Dec 14th, 2013 at 12:36pm: ... there are some people whose only agenda on the board is to write sarcastic and negative posts, and for those folks their absence would be certainly welcome. I disagree. Its a public forum, and I'm happy for anyone to be here - including the rude, the sarcastic, the so-called negative, even the phoneys. crossbow          Would it be different if we were all gathered together  in the  kitchen or the  living room of your home? No. I would be the same. Though I might occasionally excuse myself and leave you to each other.

It would be an interesting thing to do; to have us gather all together. I don't know how I would respond until I experienced it. Anything I tell myself now is a story... There are times in my life, in a space that is defined, that I have to say "no!" and act on that.  In my business... I've had to banish individuals who were verbally abusive to other customers,  masturbatory  in the kid's section,  so drunk I had to get help to carry them out,  robbing the shop.... there are times to draw a line and protect the integrity of the space. Like - wise in other areas of my work. I might invite a Being into a space ( their function is useful towards the intention of my jobs) ...and almost always I need to banish them afterwards. To keep the space workable.  To protect the integrity of the work. There are some I've worked with so constant, well, to banish them,( they're part of my weave) it would be like cutting off a hand.... One of the best magic words you can stand behind is the word "no!"  It depends on what you're doing of course, what the specific work is. In playing music with others, I've mostly said "yes!"  But if it's not in my line or their level is too far below me  or above me...I''m not up to it. I 've had to sometimes say no. Getting up on stage with them just wouldn't work.. Make sense?  My point is: saying "yes" or "no" isn't a yes or no proposition.

Hi Albert,

You know for me intent has a lot to do with it. Lust and biological functions do not have to be a counter force to love.  In fact, most everything that manifests in our lives can stem from God's love; it is simply how we think, and act - what is our intent?

Is biting into chocolate cake sinful?  It may be bad for our health, but it gives us pleasure.  Is that physical pleasure to be avoided since we find it more difficult to concentrate on love?  I think not.  I understand asceticism, the idea that by being celibate or denying ourselves pleasure we may focus our intent on God or love.  I just disagree that is a preferred path.

If love is a foundational state for our being (as my friend Don likes to say), and we are incarnated into physical bodies, then our thoughts and intent matter the most, not our use of biological body parts or functions for pleasure.  Freud used to say that children were, by nature "polymorphously perverse," deriving what he assumed was pleasure from very unconventional body parts until schooled by their parents and norms for behavior that they should repress those urges. 

So I guess to each his/her own.  I do think if lust occupies too much of one's daily thought, it may interfere with function, and the expression of love.  But sexual union is, I believe what we make of it, and that depends on our thought and intent. 

Must we rid ourselves from the need for sexual union in order to progress spiritually?  Perhaps.  Or, perhaps, as Justin suggested the need to merge biologically has its counter part in the need for us to merge with other consciousnes, and re-merge back with our soul-group and with God and a bigger consciousness.  Perhaps that primal drive has its correspondence in heaven.  One can only speculate while we are here.


M

Griffin wrote on Dec 17^th, 2013 at 11:12pm:

1796 wrote on Dec 16th, 2013 at 1:52am: Griffin wrote on Dec 16th, 2013 at 1:04am: 1796 wrote on Dec 16th, 2013 at 12:15am: rondele wrote on Dec 14th, 2013 at 12:36pm: ... there are some people whose only agenda on the board is to write sarcastic and negative posts, and for those folks their absence would be certainly welcome. I disagree. Its a public forum, and I'm happy for anyone to be here - including the rude, the sarcastic, the so-called negative, even the phoneys. crossbow          Would it be different if we were all gathered together  in the  kitchen or the  living room of your home? No. I would be the same. Though I might occasionally excuse myself and leave you to each other. It would be an interesting thing to do; to have us gather all together. I don't know how I would respond until I experienced it. Anything I tell myself now is a story... There are times in my life, in a space that is defined, that I have to say "no!" and act on that.  In my business... I've had to banish individuals who were verbally abusive to other customers,  masturbatory  in the kid's section,  so drunk I had to get help to carry them out,  robbing the shop.... there are times to draw a line and protect the integrity of the space. Like - wise in other areas of my work. I might invite a Being into a space ( their function is useful towards the intention of my jobs) ...and almost always I need to banish them afterwards. To keep the space workable.  To protect the integrity of the work. There are some I've worked with so constant, well, to banish them,( they're part of my weave) it would be like cutting off a hand.... One of the best magic words you can stand behind is the word "no!"  It depends on what you're doing of course, what the specific work is. In playing music with others, I've mostly said "yes!"  But if it's not in my line or their level is too far below me  or above me...I''m not up to it. I 've had to sometimes say no. Getting up on stage with them just wouldn't work.. Make sense?  My point is: saying "yes" or "no" isn't a yes or no proposition.

Yes naturally. I consider the limit is at the point of harm to others, which is as your examples. I was referring to free speech on a public typed forum - not examples as drunken slobbery, robbery, incompetence at work and such. A lot of people like to feign being offended, intimidated, harmed, just to get their way and they wind up believing it themselves. Pretending to be offended is the oldest trick in the book for silencing, manipulating and oppressing good but weak people, and is the commonest excuse used to justify attacks. Spiritually mature people don't get offended. 

Yes it would be interesting to get together.  Who would have me in your home?   

crossbow

wrote on Dec 17^th, 2013 at 12:16pm:

Hmm, i happen to think that marriage between man and man and woman and woman is just as valid of a marriage as between a man and a woman..   But, i guess i might be one of those not apparently evil, leftists sort of.  ;)  ;D

Maybe a little, but I love you anyway Justin  :-* and everyone else  :-* :-* :-* :-* :-* :-*  Besides we are all evil, deluded, mad and insane to some extent, because our soul's pixels have had their left-right dimension of truth and goodness activated by Socratic-Judeo-Christian culture, and we are each a picture of our pixels overall combination of alignments and misalignments. Its upon each of us to align each pixel like little magnets with the one truth and goodness. We are works in progress. Gods in the making, as someone once said. Who was that?   

Homosexuality should be allowed but it should not be encouraged i.e. by making it sacrosanct - beyond criticism.   

The current same-sex marriage push across western societies is beside the point. I was referring to the Christian model of belief, religion and marriage which was designed to provide rapid progress through the Earth school system for the majority of its inductees. Naturally, as with all and anything, it was inevitable that those on the fringes of the bell curve of the mass would experience greater stress and friction. It was designed to be high stress and high pressured, even for those in the bulk of the bell curve. It was trialled on a spiritually backward people who lagged behind others on their planet and within two thousand years it had successfully propelled them ahead of the others on their planet. That despite what its critics say - they weren't in the panning and can't see the result. It was grafted onto a one God system with strict rules so as to activate its full width of love-forgiveness. All its downsides and errors where anticipated, many were known to be inevitable, and after all was weighed up it was deemed it would be of overall benefit to the bulk and so it went ahead.

Some time ago while out of body I met some of those who had part in the planning and they gave me the full picture, or as full as I could grasp. I asked them to explain Christianity to me in its full picture. Of course they warned me the answer would change me and told me to consider carefully if I wanted to know. I felt hesitant and nearly said "On second thoughts no thanks", but then I said "Yes". It came in as a massive download and was a real head and heart stretcher and shook me up more than my first out-of-body experience. It was life changing alright, huge and amazing. Took me a month or more of going over the details of the package and all the while it painfully wrung my heart like tightly wringing a wet cloth. But now I understand it. Prior to that I thought I understood and I had opinions, but I know now I didn't get it.    

I expected that most will misunderstand me because the picture is huge and fine, multi-layered and multi-faceted and I cannot describe it to people without it tending to fall into common one dimensional this-way or that-way chunky thinking. I did mention this communication difficulty at the start of the post.

crossbow

Doc:

I suppose each person needs to find the approach that works for he or she.


DocM wrote on Dec 17^th, 2013 at 11:31pm:

Hi Albert, You know for me intent has a lot to do with it. Lust and biological functions do not have to be a counter force to love.  In fact, most everything that manifests in our lives can stem from God's love; it is simply how we think, and act - what is our intent? Is biting into chocolate cake sinful?  It may be bad for our health, but it gives us pleasure.  Is that physical pleasure to be avoided since we find it more difficult to concentrate on love?  I think not.  I understand asceticism, the idea that by being celibate or denying ourselves pleasure we may focus our intent on God or love.  I just disagree that is a preferred path. If love is a foundational state for our being (as my friend Don likes to say), and we are incarnated into physical bodies, then our thoughts and intent matter the most, not our use of biological body parts or functions for pleasure.  Freud used to say that children were, by nature "polymorphously perverse," deriving what he assumed was pleasure from very unconventional body parts until schooled by their parents and norms for behavior that they should repress those urges.  So I guess to each his/her own.  I do think if lust occupies too much of one's daily thought, it may interfere with function, and the expression of love.  But sexual union is, I believe what we make of it, and that depends on our thought and intent.  Must we rid ourselves from the need for sexual union in order to progress spiritually?  Perhaps.  Or, perhaps, as Justin suggested the need to merge biologically has its counter part in the need for us to merge with other consciousnes, and re-merge back with our soul-group and with God and a bigger consciousness.  Perhaps that primal drive has its correspondence in heaven.  One can only speculate while we are here. M

Maybe it would be a good idea to take along a hunk of chocolate cake before driving back and forth to work.  With the amount of road rage out there these days, a couple mouthfuls might just lower our irritation when someone cuts us off or tailgates.

Yes the pleasure from eating it might divert us from concentrating on love, but it might also allow us to calm down as the guy behind us is riding our bumper. 

After all, talk about something taking our thoughts off of love, what does that more efficiently than being in rush hour traffic 5 days a week?

I'll take my chances with chocolate cake anytime.

r

Mmmmm... chocolate... Yum Yum... I'm thinking about love already!  8-)

Hey, don't you know? God is made out of chocolate. :)

"Yes it would be interesting to get together.  Who would have me in your home?"

crossbow
[/quote]
You're invited. Come on in.  Bring an instrument if you play.  Tell me where ( privately) you are & it might work out. Albert lives in the same geographic area as me. So does Bob Moenroe.  Anyone else nearby is welcome. My idea would be to join in music for a bit. Too much talking about spiritual stuff kinda bores me. But I'm easy. Let me know. Oh, and bring chocolate.

I play guitar, and am in NY.


M

Hey Matthew,  if you ever find yourself near the S.F. Bay Area give me a holler. I have a fine old acoustic you can use.          Tim

Griffin wrote on Dec 19^th, 2013 at 12:07am:

"Yes it would be interesting to get together.  Who would have me in your home?" crossbow

You're invited. Come on in.  Bring an instrument if you play.  Tell me where ( privately) you are & it might work out. Albert lives in the same geographic area as me. So does Bob Moenroe.  Anyone else nearby is welcome. My idea would be to join in music for a bit. Too much talking about spiritual stuff kinda bores me. But I'm easy. Let me know. Oh, and bring chocolate.[/quote]

Thank you Griffin. I think that would be very nice to meet you and others, and make a musical occasion of it. My clarinet days are behind me but I can get a tune or two out of a recorder and a harmonica. Inconveniently though I live in Australia and am unable to come over at present. One day though I might visit the US.      

cb

Well if you ever do make it here, be sure to look me up.  I'd give you a place to stay for a visit.  Harp & recorder are good instruments. I'm sure if we got together, it would be for more than a song or tune or two. My playing might stretch you a bit. Yours might stretch me.  That'd be a good thing, eh?                                                      Tim

alas, only got me wee vocal chords to play, but san fran is a long ways away anyways. 

   

My favorite instrument to support is a voice. Likewise Justin, you ever make it out here again, we'll gather together every one we can. And you & your own have a place to stay for a visit.

  Thanks Tim.  Do have an Uncle, Aunt, and cousins who live out there and Albert whom we occasionally visit. 

I hope too see you and your own sometime soon Justin.
If not here..Elsewhere then.  Keep in touch my friend.

Griffin wrote on Dec 19^th, 2013 at 9:42pm:

Well if you ever do make it here, be sure to look me up.  I'd give you a place to stay for a visit.  Harp & recorder are good instruments. I'm sure if we got together, it would be for more than a song or tune or two. My playing might stretch you a bit. Yours might stretch me.  That'd be a good thing, eh?                                                      Tim

Yes that would be a good thing. Thank you for your kind offer of hospitality Tim. Who knows what the future holds? I may take you up on it one day.

As for now I am going to make myself scarce for a while. That post I put on George's out-of-body thread reminded me that I should stop dilly-dallying about and spend my computer time getting busy on a blog that I started a little while ago. I intend to lay down some tracks and pointers. Its called throughthelacecurtain for anyone who's interested.   

Thanks for putting up with me ladies and gentlemen, and for hosting this forum Bruce.

strength and virtue to all, (and good humour)

crossbow

Quote:

You're invited. Come on in.  Bring an instrument if you play.  Tell me where ( privately) you are & it might work out. Albert lives in the same geographic area as me. So does Bob Moenroe.  Anyone else nearby is welcome. My idea would be to join in music for a bit. Too much talking about spiritual stuff kinda bores me. But I'm easy. Let me know. Oh, and bring chocolate.

Griffin, with invitations like these it's no wonder why you have challenges with some customers, saying come inside. Here's a playlist suggestion from the land of the vikings.

Starting at the base chakra to energize the other chakras in a clockwise motion:

Fuzz - Sleigh Ride
http://goo.gl/d7Sqkz

Rising to the second chakra, one's creative and sexual expressions; sex for sex goes nowhere in a relationship, affectional rebellion to the controlling and breeding demand, denial of sexual self as a reflective incarnation, to eventually merge like energies and operate as one when the incarnational time is up:

Young The Giant - I Got
http://goo.gl/CVlIcZ

Third chakra is a charm, seat of (personal) power, heal/attack/defend - yes/no; an ode to the topic:

The 88 - Head Cut Off
http://goo.gl/mEfZF7

Four steps into the emotional swimming pool where humour can open the doors even if a little bit, feels like home but for a reason not the only one, fine tuned so that the head isn't cut off:

Yes - Time And a Word
http://goo.gl/Q4K7h8

The fifth chakra, hearspeak, but keep that soul for you:

Rival Sons - Soul
http://goo.gl/aHU72

The sixth chakra, see what we may see though there may be more to see, eventually:

Pink Floyd - Country Song
http://goo.gl/xGJHZV

The connection is here and over I-there; I am both feminine and masculine & I know, sparkling with shimmering glimpses of gold:

Slow - Higher Self
http://goo.gl/H9DKG2