A topic that is not addressed that often on the forum is that of knowing yourself, your inner self/spirit, and what you do with that knowledge on the path to self-discovery.

Many paths from the great religions teach that the kingdom of heaven/enlightenment is within ourselves, and that it is the illusion of the primacy of the physical body and the physical world that creates much misery.  We attach ourselves to our bodies, and physical things, and don't spend much time in self-discovery of our inner spirit, based in love.  As long as we continue in this attachment to the ego-based outcomes, we are to some extent unhappy.

But what happens when a person gets in touch with his/her soul, and really believes that he/she is primary a spiritual being, wearing a physical shell/clothing?  What then?  If you find your inner self, and really "get it," what would you do with that knowledge? How would it change your future efforts and actions?


M

If I find my inner self, and really "get it" I guess I would try to aim my future efforts and actions to expand "having it" and become even more in touch with my soul.

So much for a short and quick reply...

The thought of an afterlife, of myself as a continuing, growing spirit which lives on after discarding this body, is somewhat comforting. The thought that there are other spirits there whose mission is one of pure kindness is also comforting.

I realize that everyone is seeking happiness in their own ways. I don't think I'd do anything differently now, because my personal growth doesn't depend on an afterlife, as I see it now.

But the thought that personal growth can continue indefinitely is a much more hopeful one than the thought that it can be cut off abruptly, with no choice as to the outcome. Ultimately, it gives me a sense of more control, to think that I and all others live on. 

If what are seen as problems here are not completely solved here, there is always later, and those who care are waiting in the wings.

For instance, to have one's personality and character extinguished at death seems to be a very helpless position in which to live. One could even consider it very unkind, if not indifferent.

But, an afterlife, whatever it is, implies that there is more than this purely physical life. If it is not a worse environment, it must be better, so that is what I choose to believe.

I can tell you some of what it would be like if  it hadn't sunk deep into my bones that I'm a spiritual being having the temporary experience of the physical, human life...

I wouldn't be a musician. Becoming a musician is the direct result of being visited by a being-in-spirit almost 40 years ago. I can still taste the sheer joy of that encounter that came from both of us...

My life wouldn't be such a mess. Piles of music I'm working on, craft & art projects in various stages of completion, theatrical magical pieces in-progress, emotions & notions & potions everywhere etc.

Without knowing myself as Spirit, life would be cleaner and.... boring.

Without Spirit, I would know all the answers. I'd walk out the door in the morning knowing exactly where I am, what the people I meet are...  as-it-is, I walk out into the Unknown everyday.

Otherwise, knowing you're a spiritual being doesn't mean you don't have to wash dishes or do laundry anymore.                                                                                   Tim                                                                           

DocM,

What a great question.

Self-discovery brought me full circle, meaning that when all was said and done (I think ;)), when all the drama and confusion lifted, all that remained was my slightly beat up but astonished reflection in the mirror...which made me burst into laughter. It's liberating and you want to share it. It isn't something you would ever want to hoard--you'd be missing the point entirely.

I don't feel that anyone needs me to assume that they need what I've discovered. Each of us is where we're suppose to be, where we've chosen to be, right here and now. But if someone is curious, if something strikes an inner chord... ::).

Much love Doc,

Ginny

Griffin wrote on Apr 2^nd, 2013 at 12:08pm:

Otherwise, knowing you're a spiritual being doesn't mean you don't have to wash dishes or do laundry anymore.                                                                                   Tim

   I guess that depends, in the more ultra cases such people might do that for others sometimes, but not have to do it for themselves as some kind of physical necessity. 

  I feel/intuit/think there is a point that we can reach wherein if we become clear enough channels for PUL, some of the physical rule sets we seem so bound by, aren't necessarily such strictures anymore. 

Like aging, getting sick, dying, being hungry, thirsty, needing shelter, needing sleep, etc, etc. 

  But the above is not a goal or an end unto itself, just an eventual side affect of being and living as your true self that is in the world but not of it anymore.  For most, it's very eventual i suppose, but to know that such is possible and achievable by all has some worth i think.  Why else do we get little big hints of it in various unrelated and/or different sources like Monroe, Cayce, McKnight, etc, etc or in my case some direct guidance about it?   Not for the sensational, no, but for it's deeper implications, and what it means about being a spiritual consciousness focusing part of it's awareness in this temp. stream of info and perception and relation known as the physical.  Much more than physical?  So much more, and so far only one human has really shown that full potential.  Since some react to names so strongly we can label him "He/She" for a more neutral flavor.   ;)

Hi Justin,  the exploration of our shared afterlife is, for me, "beyond belief".  I don't know if when Bob Monroe talked about "He/She", he was talking about Jesus. He might have been. That's Mr. Monroe's business, not mine.  As such, his way is his own.  I paddle my own canoe.  The water itself doesn't seem to care about religion.  Not starting an arguement here; whatever floats your own boat is your own passion.                                                                                                 My best to you & all of your own, Tim

Its funny,
I was just purusing a website that is run by a group of very dedicated and "out" ascension proponents. And I was saying to myself, I wonder if I would have the courage to be so open about my beliefs if they were so far outside the beaten path? I continue to seek a deeper understanding of what I seem to know is true but can't say that I have experienced anything so definitive. I am working in what I hope is that direction, and do hope that when I have that Ah Ha moment, I will have the courage to sing it to the mountain tops, no matter how  I sound to others.

Matthew's question is a foundational question of Christian spirituality.  In effect, God gives you a taste of grace or healing through mystical experience--but just a taste---and then asks, "What would you be willing to do if I established an even more intimate bond with you?"  If your answer is, "I would serve Jesus with all my heart by becoming His hands and feet reaching out to meet the needs of hurting souls," you will encounter the Spirit of Christ in every person you  strive to help.  If instead you reply, "I would pursue a mystical lifestyle in the hope of attaining greater self-fulfillment,"  then the taste of holiness will slowly erode into a belief system of ever more tiresome cliches and dogmas that inoculate you against life-transforming union with the divine. Lasting satisfaction of the highest type depends on a recgnition of God as PUL, a recognition that leads to a life designed to pursue and embody PUL through service to God through service to others. 

For example, consider a life-changing moment in the life of the spoiled son of a wealthy cloth merchant.  This young man was always repulsed by the very sick and the smelly poor.  Then one day, he heard what seemed like an audible voice, saying, "Prefer bitterness to sweetness if you want to know Me."  Clueless to what this might mean, he was riding his horse, when he encountered a leper with a badly disfigured face that made him want to barf.  As he quickly rode by, the thought struck him that this man might embody the "bitterness" he was supposed to prefer to "sweetness."   So he turned around, got off his horse, and kissed the leper on his pussy cheek, thrusting a few coins in his hand.  As he did so, wave after wave of liquid love surged through his  being.  When he rode off, he felt an impulse to look back.  The leper had dematerialized. It was then that this spoiled rich kid realized that Christ had come to him disguised as a leper.  That experience was the catalyst for the tranformation of a spoiled rich kid into the saint, Francis of Assisi.  From  then on, whenever he encountered the sick and the needy, he experienced such encounters as Christ coming to him in disguise. 

Fon

"Fon" brings up great points, if that is the direction that a person is called for their service in life. I think it is important to remember, in addition, that without self-nurture there is little energy for giving to others. Seeking wholeness in oneself can be a valid path, so that what you have may spill over others, and your own happiness can be a light for others as well. I think it all depends on where you are at, and what the need is. It is true that service to others, in whatever capacity is best for you, brings benefit to all. But, your own happiness, if not completely self-serving, can be a beacon. In effect, you teach others to value themselves by valuing your own self in a healthy way. Just a thought.

I wonder why an almighty and omnipotent god would need anyone's servitude. Amongst one's physical friends, does our knowledge about spiritual matters make us their Lords? How often would we then wash our feet to accommodate their obligated kisses? How dare they not leave continuous praise our way, we who want nothing but for them to be happy in their love for us?

A part of the world now in the news, North Korea, have "gotten it" and moves forward in a peculiar way. A group-oriented miniature civilization, in all its simplistic communal fascist glory. Individualism, spirit growth and development are suppressed potentials. The whole 'group' becomes a 'state' in and of itself. Water under the bridge, for me.

Well, "get it" and get that there's still a lot of ground to cover and hopefully new personal and shared discoveries that aren't ground related. Sometimes I carry my own weight, sometimes give and/or receive a helping hand.

You are always inspiring, BobMoenroe!

"I wonder why an almighty and omnipotent god would need anyone's servitude.”
You know that one is not talking about a person when one says ‘...need anyone’s servitude.’ It’s an energy exchange--maybe ying for yang or protons for electrons, or units of measure in a scheme we haven’t yet discovered. 

"Amongst one's physical friends, does our knowledge about spiritual matters make us their Lords?”
If we knew them well enough maybe we’d know that their spiritual knowledge can equal or be greater than ours.

"How often would we then wash our feet to accommodate their obligated kisses?” I don’t know if you’re talking about pets or people.   
"How dare they not leave continuous praise our way, we who want nothing but for them to be happy in their love for us?”
Do you push them away to avoid the natural state all beings hope for,-- a loving relationship of whatever type is appropriate of friends, lovers, pet owners...

My rescuedog Toby came from an abusing life and when first arrived would hide under the couch and only come out for food. His eyes said he was miserable, he didn’t want that life. Gradually he came out for curiosity and then love. He has lowered my blood pressure over 20 points because our relationship is a good one.

It seems to me the purpose of spiritual knowledge is to release our spirits into loving relationships with all creation from God to dog.

"It seems to me the purpose of spiritual knowledge is to release our spirits into loving relationships with all creation from God to dog."

I love how this was said, Bets. My little friend has changed my life and given me a source of pure, unconditional love. She puts any human to shame with her patience, good cheer, devotion and affection.

My 1 month marker for being a vegan has passed, and it isn't hard to do (!), and I will continue on in honor of our amazing companions on this planet.

If eating plant food is somehow cruel and inhumane, that's going to be a tough one....but there is no end to thinking, and to realizing better ways of agriculture, and supporting the people and environment of the planet. We have a long way to go.....or, we don't....if we won't reach across the aisle of our differences and solve our problems.

But, who wants to hear my blather? Probably no one, but thanks for the listen! :)

Griffin wrote on Apr 9^th, 2013 at 11:12pm:

Hi Justin,  the exploration of our shared afterlife is, for me, "beyond belief".  I don't know if when Bob Monroe talked about "He/She", he was talking about Jesus. He might have been. That's Mr. Monroe's business, not mine.  As such, his way is his own.  I paddle my own canoe.  The water itself doesn't seem to care about religion.  Not starting an arguement here; whatever floats your own boat is your own passion.                                                                                                 My best to you & all of your own, Tim

  Beyond belief?  haha, good luck with that one! 

Re: He/She, Monroe etc.  Information is information and no one individual owns it.  Experience is personal and most pertains to the individual that had same, but let's not fool ourselves and put the cart before the horse too much, in a reality of connectedness others and their experiences can affect and have meaning for the rest of us too at times depending.

   In any case, it's easy enough to "translate" experiences into information that pertain to us.  Such as meditating and asking "guidance" about something we heard and are curious about, but which may not be true or not.  OR, just setting a basic intention to be open to receive only that information which is most true/accurate, helpful, constructive, etc, etc. for both us as indivdiuals and in our affect on or relation to the Whole.

  But, that oft takes courage, and a true step in moving beyond belief in so far as that is possible.  Hard to do when there are certain strong and ironic attachments, no?  Buddha be heavy at times, but true duty is light as a feather. 

  And believe it or not Tim, i'm not just trying to goad you.  I do love you and consider you my brother. 

 

That's pretty cool Isee.  Keep up the good work, but also listen to your body via intuition too.  Everything flows in cycles and phases, sometimes we move in and move out, and there may be reasons for same. 

  But if you keep up regular, deep and expansive meditation, it makes it MUCH easier on the body to eat solely vegan. 

  Ultimately, we don't even necessarily require material, earth based food i suspect.

Hi Justin,     I speak only of my own experience. I can put it this way if it helps understanding: the exploration of our shared after-life is, for me, beyond religious belief... and some other beliefs as well.

I appreciate the response tho' bro'....                             Tim

****Spoiler Alert!!!***   This is the answer to a riddle that Robert Monroe posed at the end of his book "Far Journeys".  I'm going to put a but-load of dots first so you don't accidentaly read the answer if you don't want to. Now is the the time to excercise your free-will. (Most often, excercising your free-will means saying "No!")  Meaning.... I don't want to ride with the herd. ................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................ Wow, that's a boat-load of dots, ain't they?  At the end of "Far Journeys" Robert Monroe asks you to solve this riddle:  "Pas de Lieu Rhone que Nous".                It means....  "Paddle your own canoe" It doesn't mean "Don't put yourself in a position to receive help".  It doesn't mean "Don't offer help".  It doesn't mean "Don't interact with Helpers".  It means.... if you desire to explore Non-Physical Reality ( "the Afterlife" ) then the only one who can do that is....you. Inspiration can come from books, friends, music art... anywhere! But (there's my but hanging out) only YOU can verify & explore the afterife for yourself. You're in luck! You're in one of the right places, right now, to be able to see it for yourself. You can't ride any one's coat-tails with this. You have to explore it for yourself. Bruce Moen offers a way to do this. The Monroe Institute offers a way to do this. Dang! As you fall asleep at night, you can ask "please show me the Reality of the Afterlife.... I'd be most grateful..." You might be surprised. You don't actually need anybody to show you... it's your birthright. But ( dang! Another big but! ) it doesn't hurt to ask for help.  One of my beliefs is that we all have a non-physical escort, intimate friends-in-spirit.  They can help. This is a "find-out-for-yourself" game.  Find out & share. I might need your discovery.      Your bud, Tim   

  Ah Tim.... 

Bob Monroe, the iconoclast, the stout individual who so often had the emphasis on you, you, you and me, me, me, who later finally learned the reality of Oneness, and yet didn't really live that except intermittently and temporarily at times. 

  Course Monroe's filters would emphasize certain things.  Bob the business man, Bob the entertainer, Bob the reluctant OBE'er, Bob the autocratic boss man of his Institute, Bob the friend and co-worker to my then female self, etc, etc. 

  And like so many of us, he did the best with what he knew, learned, and experienced.  But Bob not being pure, did not purely perceive.  Can't get around that one, can we?  What is the unbreakable and ever present LAW, like attracts, begets, and resonates with Like. 

    But others with less distorted filters have called to us, and have taught a bit differently than Bob at times.  Some have emphasized our connectedness more while not forgetting our individuality either.  West meets East, and East meets West finally.

  It's to that one i harken, for he is One, completely and purely with what some call my "Higher" self, and knows me BETTER than i know myself.  And while i listened to Bob and respected Bob and still do, if his voice is not intune with that one, why would i listen?  It has nothing to do with "religion" and never has in this lifetime, i tell you that much.

    Bob sought material compensation, that one did not.  Bob got sick and died like everyone else, that one did not.  Bob realized limitations were illusions, and yet did not overcome many of those limitations and illusions, and yet that one did. 

   

Justin,  We can sit in internet-world just like we are sitting face to face with each other, comfortable & at ease, able to smile through differences in viewpoint while still remaining friendly. Or there's the normal style.... the "I'm right, you're wrong", the one-up-man-ship game. Honestly, I don't understand your defensiveness. No one is attacking anything you hold dear. My post wasn't in response to anything you said. I was actually thinking of "Bob Moenroe",  ( a fellow I've grown to really enjoy )  & anyone who wishes to gain experience about our afterlife. Really, my post wasn't about you. I'm confused why you're offended.         Be well buddy, Tim

Griffin wrote on Apr 12^th, 2013 at 12:33pm:

Hi Justin,     I speak only of my own experience. I can put it this way if it helps understanding: the exploration of our shared after-life is, for me, beyond religious belief... and some other beliefs as well. I appreciate the response tho' bro'....                             Tim

   Beliefs, experiences, perception... very interesting topic to me.  I have a hard time, often, in separating that which we call "perception" from that which we call "experience", for they seemed so intertwined as to be almost indistinguishable.

  Here is an "experience" of mine if you are interested.  Long before i had any conscious or strong "experience" or remembrance of really feeling and expressing Love in the PUL type sense, i knew of Love's importance and existence in some way, somehow.  I "believed" in it... ; )

  Long while back, i was a rather unhappy and chronically depressed individual (later on, i had some mini revisits of similar states, but much more temporary).  Yet, Love was a belief and perception somehow, really a "knowing".  Something i wrote in early high-school, "It has been said many times that there are many paths to God, i disagree.  There may be many different valid and true beliefs and ideas about God, but there is only one path to God, the path of Love." 

   I "believed" this, i knew this, i knew this on some level, in some way.  I will call that my intuitive, knowing self, and how do i distinguish that, Tim, from vaunted "experience" with all the bells and whistles of "out of body explorations", or whatever dramatic and in our face methods the Expanded level of ourselves and/or the larger Whole sometimes uses to get our attention in the hope of converting limited beliefs into more freeing and constructive ones?

   How do i know, that when Bob is talking about He/She, i know, just know, who exactly he is talking to and about?  For lack of a better term, "intuition", and again, how do i separate that from "experience"?  Did i need a Being of Light to descend unto me in some easy to perceive form?  Did i need to be Bob, sharing his body, or his mind?

  What happens when an "individual human" lives a number of lifetimes wherein they meditate oft, give self in service oft, express Love in a bigger sense oft, and dip into other, more expanded systems but come back to this one oft. 

As that individual wakes up in this life, and starts to attune themselves, their intuitive knowing side becomes stronger and stronger, keener and keener, and more and more automatic.  Not infallible, course not, not until completely purified by the cleansing fires of true PUL like He was, but when the intention is not negative or temporarily imbalanced by life's buffeting outer storms... 

Less and less becomes their need and mode for bells and whistle experiences of "traveling out of body", or seeing this or that, or what not, but a quiet and sure knowing comes more and more often, and as the faith and trust increases, so does that keen listening and knowing without senses. 

  And that part of me, knows that Monroe's experience and perception is part of my experience and perception, and pertains to others in some form or manner depending, for he had that experience not JUST for himself, but for the larger Whole as well, and those of us that are His are here to remind others that His times, and His comings are soon to be, and those who are willing to be truly open, truly listening will benefit most.

  Well what else can such a person and messenger say to those without ears to hear, or eyes to see, for those think they are beyond such "limitations" and "golden cages" when really it's just a consequence of the ever present Law of Like attracts, begets, and resonates with Like, that those who are near Him, know Him, hearken to Him, and abide in Him, and speak the good news whilst those who are a distance from Him by choice. limited beliefs, childhood hangups, and livingness do not yet hear, understand, or hearken to Him more fully .

  And ever in our day and age, and on part of so many individuals defenses is "Religion" an excuse against Him and the messengers who know him.  And ever does He and they exist outside of same.   

  What am i really saying with all these words?  What is the real and most important message?  Just be open, really truly and honestly open, for without that childlike openness you will not and cannot meet Him, YOUR higher self in reflection to YOU, as He fully is.  You will only see half glimpses, and distorted images with some truth and some non truths, and will you be attracted to teachers and teachings less expanded and expanding in nature and effect. 

   Relative stuckness as we all have experienced for so, so, so, so long, or finally full freedom.  Your choice, and only YOU can change that.  Others can only share, remind, and try to encourage. 

  There is no separating Him from Truth, from your Higher self, for He is the Light and birthed our Light and we abide in Him through that Light, and that Love.  And it's time to more fully wake up Tim, for the Whole needs everyone of us to help out in these unusual times and seasons.

  Being Love more fully and knowing Him more fully go hand in hand.  There are those from other systems, other worlds, and Universes who know Him better than most humans despite that He came to us as a human, in human form.   
 

  Perhaps Tim, i'm not just speaking to you though i'm more directly responding and replying to you? 

  There is no "defensiveness".  If there was any kind of defensiveness or re-activeness, i would have replied back right away, for i read your replies much earlier than i responded. I thought of not responding at all.  Felt moved to, and for a more universal purpose beyond "you" and "me".

  I'm not the person you knew and talked to 7 years ago, the person you sometimes hold in a fixed light and image of the past despite your ideals and wish not to.   When we interacted before, i was in a very unbalanced and testing period of life, and screwed up a lot in relation to a number of individuals, and i take full responsibility for that prior lack. 

I appreciate your openess, your heartfelt voice. Hearing your voice touches me. That's rare. Myself.... I'm not selling any particular viewpoint. I believe it's important that folks find out the reality of the afterlife for themselves, without anyone telling them what they should discover. If they discover what you believe.... great! It's their discovery. Each individual needs to find out what is out There themselves. Not informed by any particular religious viewpoint. The structure of the afterlife isn't religious in nature. It just is. Like life itself. It's kind of ridiculous to even call it the "afterlife". It's just life.... How cool is that!  I love that we are all here together, able to talk about something so simple & precious. It's a real gift.            Wow..               My best to all y'all, Tim

Oh man, we're posting in real time & I'm doing it on a phone! I can't keep up with your heart, I write something & you've already responded before I posted! I'm just glad your heart is beating & I get to hear it through your words. That's all that's important.

  True enough Tim, we all need to find out for ourselves.  I totally agree with that.  I guess our approaches in relation to others is a bit different at times, at least on these forums, but maybe that's OK.  My approach with others in person mirrors your approach on this forum much more--rarely talk about my beliefs, experiences, or the experiences or info of others i respect.  Observe, listen, or keep it lighter or material oriented (at least on the surface ;) ) a lot more.  Rarely do the name labels "He/She", Jesus, or Yeshua come from these lips, unless talking to those likewise interested in same.

  Peace, and thank you for sharing and talking with me.

   If you ever visit the Richmond VA area, feel free to let me know if you feel inclined, maybe we talk in person a bit. 

Bets,

I wondered why an entity would need servitude along these lines: Your rescuedog toby, for some strange reason You train him to worship You since You're all powerful with the food tray and speak words that he likes. He in turn recruits friends and strangers to save them from their empty spiritual lives, that is, a life without You. All dogs must be saved or their souls will perish, and You're so kind that You let them come in great numbers, to praise You, with their feet up in Your garden. Bow wow.

Loving relationships are greater than great, however if all relationships are to be released into love then all the time spent learning to measure seems wasted. Isn't that what Toby did, measured his previous experiences with his eyes, and then started a good relationship with you?

Tim,

Good post about the canoe. J'aime le chocolat au lait.

“Of what avail is freedom to choose if the self be ineffectual? We join a mass movement to escape individual responsibility, or, in the words of the ardent young Nazi, ‘to be free from freedom.’” - Eric Hoffer

Justin,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W2Cv5hZfOmk

Documentaries are interesting. The range of human experience is pretty astounding.

Love?

Two strains of submissive love have been mentioned in the thread - power give away by surrendering and living on the whims of a spiritual authority figure and suspending judgement so that everything is lovable, even that which is quite unlovable and grotesque.

In his encounter with PUL, Bob allegedly said "Bruce... you can take this emotional energy with you". This after a wonderful meeting and mutual merging with friends, and a very specific beam of affection (chest->heart->emotional) from Nancy. Did I get that right? Emotionally overpowering, Bruce wrote in his book.

"No judgements, no prerequisites, nothing asked in return, just pure loving acceptance of all of me". Yet some are a lot easier to love than others, some a lot easier to ban. No prerequisites, as long as there is love - gunks of black sent her way, and still lovin' it? Of course not. Nothing asked in return, since for a few moments it's all so good that nothing really matters, which they do after all, don't they? Pure loving acceptance of a likable fellow.

Counting the number of times PUL have been mentioned on this site maybe bears witness to curiosity about what affection beyond words is like, wanting to experience it and the fondness of it by those who have experienced it, giving and receiving. Affection beyond words, obviously, it's beyond words fantastic, but that is what being is all about? PACT - powerful affection junkies?

The PUL example takes interaction between small portions of I-THEREs engaged in this system into account. How about affection purely between I-THEREs, our total selves? Greater than mini-merging affection, so this more encompassing affection becomes the new addiction?

Love, as just one simple example, is two people talking with each other. No commercial lighting to illuminate the scene and make it shiny and shallow, no teeth whitening needed, no white dressed choir people ho-humming and parts of the world is still at war, some at peace. But there's a chat, and there's shared affection.

I have projected as my Higher Self and united this with a concurrent projection of my Guardian Angel. In trance meditation I have learnt from this united HS/GA this is called knowledge and communication with the joint Higher Self Guardian Angel. This is not the end all be all though or a panacea. It is another beginning. The path towards knowing self is called enlightenment and it is eternal and infinited. Each culmination is another beginning like we are in Kindergarten once more. Here is the cosmology of the human;
et cetera
Light Watcher
Guardian Angel/Higher Self
Guardian Angel
Higher Self
self
Lower Self
Guardian Demon
Guardian Demon/Lower Self
Dark Watcher
et cetera

The Tree of Life is climbed and the magickian comes to Kether or Samadhi albeit for a brief time, the magickian falls from the Tree  of Life into the abyss. Each time we cross the abyss it becomes less of a gap. Each time we climb to Kether it becomes further away. The Tree of Life grows as the magician develops their energy body and gains new energy centres above and below the spinal 7 chakras. As the Tree grows our consciousness expands . This is rewarding in itself. Each tiny baby step affords some modicum of wisdom or a higher or more developed siddhi power. In this manner the magickian learns to
feel clairsentiently
heal shamynically
see clairvoyantly
fly in projection
call in evocation
banish and exorcise
hear clairaudiently

The more we learn the further we can fly. We can fly to the afterlife realms and visit with out deceased relatives. We can evoke them in invitation and sit quietly with them to try to get a message or two.

The pathworking is the journey not a distant destination.

namaste.

When I think about my self "going home" I actually get that "butterfly in my stomach" sensation. Then, I can feel myself beaming all over with a wonderful euphoric sensation that makes me feel guilty because the awareness is so stimulating.  Guilt is because I know that I chose to incarnate to experience being human/ human being.  Anxiousness also overwhelms me, as I know that MY feelings and expectations are a reality to myself. One must remember---  in some eyes we are the fallen angels that desired to possess the power of the Creator.  I feel the guilt of turning away and now the desired for the remembrance.  Love Carol Ann

Identcat!  Welcome back!
We were worried about your health.

Could I just paraphrase a bit, that we are here because we are not spiritually perfect, that when we do fully find understanding that we will return to the Creator? So what we do with spiritual knowledge is to clear our path back to our Source?

Bets

For me, there never was  a question of : am a primarily a spiritual being in human clothing. Even as a child, I KNEW there was spirit. I had trouble understanding the soul. Because I was brought up Roman Catholic (a choice I made before I was re-incarnated to this lifetime) the nuns and priests where obsessed with the soul and seldom mentioned spirit. Finally a revision to the church changed the Holy Ghost to Holy Spirit and that made much more sense to me. I already KNEW I was a spirit.
When I went to the Monroe Institute and went into the pyramid chamber, I didn't expect much to happen. However, a Higher Intelligent Being (HIB) spoke to me and said:
"The difference between the spirit and soul is this; the soul gives life to the body, and the spirit gives life to the soul. "
I contacted my ISH (Inner Self Helper) and spoke to he/she as per usual conversation. I speak with spirit daily because I know that I'm spiritual.  The changes I have made were because of the "hate" I received by other humans while growing up.  I kept wondering where was the love????? The most important thing that changed my life: the three things I can never take back:spoken word, unkind thought and misused hour.  When I read that in a Yankee Magazine--- It mentally set my life in motion.  I use that mantra everyday. 
   If you have read some of my posts from the past, there seems to be a wisdom that comes through. That wisdom is spirit, my spiritual connection with my Guides and Creator. (I read in one book that the author heard the name of God as OHM.)  I like that ---OHM.  I always thought that everyone was like me-- having the KNOWING.
That's all for now, as I still work part-time and need to get to work. I missed everyone on the forum.  Love, Hugs and Peace.  Carol Ann

I believe Don's (not Fon's  :) ) post makes some good points. If one just tries to bliss out all the time with no thought of others, chances are such a person won't go too far.

But living for others, even those some consider untouchable in some way, one's nature might become more in line with what divine love is partly about. I say "partly" because I believe divine love would continue to exist even if there weren't others that need help.


Berserk2 wrote on Apr 10^th, 2013 at 6:36pm:

Matthew's question is a foundational question of Christian spirituality.  In effect, God gives you a taste of grace or healing through mystical experience--but just a taste---and then asks, "What would you be willing to do if I established an even more intimate bond with you?"  If your answer is, "I would serve Jesus with all my heart by becoming His hands and feet reaching out to meet the needs of hurting souls," you will encounter the Spirit of Christ in every person you  strive to help.  If instead you reply, "I would pursue a mystical lifestyle in the hope of attaining greater self-fulfillment,"  then the taste of holiness will slowly erode into a belief system of ever more tiresome cliches and dogmas that inoculate you against life-transforming union with the divine. Lasting satisfaction of the highest type depends on a recgnition of God as PUL, a recognition that leads to a life designed to pursue and embody PUL through service to God through service to others.  For example, consider a life-changing moment in the life of the spoiled son of a wealthy cloth merchant.  This young man was always repulsed by the very sick and the smelly poor.  Then one day, he heard what seemed like an audible voice, saying, "Prefer bitterness to sweetness if you want to know Me."  Clueless to what this might mean, he was riding his horse, when he encountered a leper with a badly disfigured face that made him want to barf.  As he quickly rode by, the thought struck him that this man might embody the "bitterness" he was supposed to prefer to "sweetness."   So he turned around, got off his horse, and kissed the leper on his pussy cheek, thrusting a few coins in his hand.  As he did so, wave after wave of liquid love surged through his  being.  When he rode off, he felt an impulse to look back.  The leper had dematerialized. It was then that this spoiled rich kid realized that Christ had come to him disguised as a leper.  That experience was the catalyst for the tranformation of a spoiled rich kid into the saint, Francis of Assisi.  From  then on, whenever he encountered the sick and the needy, he experienced such encounters as Christ coming to him in disguise.  Fon

recoverer,


Quote:

"But living for others, even those some consider untouchable in some way, one's nature might become more in line with what divine love is partly about. I say "partly" because I believe divine love would continue to exist even if there weren't others that need help."

How does one go about living for others, what are the nays and yays, if any? What's divine love, does it include any requirements? The other loves a guru and has the time of his/her life, is service then making your view their view? Do I expand my empathic potential by just being kind and showing pity? Empathy is imo about stepping into someone's shoes aiming to understand their feelings and perspectives. What does one do with that understanding coloured by one's own feelings and perspectives? The golden rule, as I've read mentioned, doesn't include the fact that the other may have wildly different tastes.

Empathy, social cooperation and mutual aid. Wary if living for others is supposed to be a one way street where one's progress is measured in how much you're about to sacrifice of your own progress. Is living for others; you live for someone else, someone else lives for you?

Living for others, not writing/saying it, living for others, would turn the burning fire in the heart into experience. It's an idea you may fancy for whatever reason, until you live it.

Sorry, but I won't try to answer every point you mentioned.

Perhaps this relates to what I say without getting too lofty. Recently the group of people I work with became really busy.  I volunteered to do a project for a lady from this group. As I worked on it I was glad that I volunteered to do it because it was quite challenging and when I compared my related experience to her related experience, I know that I spared her from having to do something that she would've probably found overwhelming. If felt really good to be able to help another out in such a way just simply for her sake.

Yet I was rewarded because the more selfless we become the more we open up to a way of being that feels very nice. It is as if the universe is set up so that negative ways of being lead to unpleasant feelings such as anger, hate and fear; while positive ways of being lead to positive feelings such as love and deep peace.



wrote on May 30^th, 2013 at 1:21pm:

recoverer, Quote: "But living for others, even those some consider untouchable in some way, one's nature might become more in line with what divine love is partly about. I say "partly" because I believe divine love would continue to exist even if there weren't others that need help." How does one go about living for others, what are the nays and yays, if any? What's divine love, does it include any requirements? The other loves a guru and has the time of his/her life, is service then making your view their view? Do I expand my empathic potential by just being kind and showing pity? Empathy is imo about stepping into someone's shoes aiming to understand their feelings and perspectives. What does one do with that understanding coloured by one's own feelings and perspectives? The golden rule, as I've read mentioned, doesn't include the fact that the other may have wildly different tastes. Empathy, social cooperation and mutual aid. Wary if living for others is supposed to be a one way street where one's progress is measured in how much you're about to sacrifice of your own progress. Is living for others; you live for someone else, someone else lives for you? Living for others, not writing/saying it, living for others, would turn the burning fire in the heart into experience. It's an idea you may fancy for whatever reason, until you live it.

I like the way you illustrated your point, Recoverer...

There's nothing to fear in doing the "loving" thing in a situation. Whatever our differences, we are human beings and have more in common than we sometimes think we do.  We have to learn along the way to do what is right for ourselves but often a personal sacrifice is a noble and worthy response to a given situation.

In any case, being truly helpful not only reminds us all that we are all in this together, it leaves a residue of loving emotions, happier emotions, inside of ourselves. We can trust our intuition that helping other people is something we can discuss, find agreement on, and just do sometimes...what the heck, why not?

Also, it's been shown that when other people witness kind acts, they become kinder in response. It has a ripple effect, no matter who you are or what your likes and dislikes might be.

Thanks Isee, I like what you said.

recoverer,


Quote:

"Sorry, but I won't try to answer every point you mentioned."

Ok, how do I qualify to become the others you speak about?


Quote:

"Recently the group of people I work with became really busy."

Which is temporarily living for others, unless one act follows the other and becomes absolute - living for others.


Quote:

"If felt really good to be able to help another out in such a way just simply for her sake."

It felt good in your self. Other selves might feel good about it. Your self made the choice to be helpful. If selfless, where's the feeling of right and wrong, feeling good and bad supposed to come from? Does those who one lives for decide what you're to do?

Is helping out building the neo ku klux clan clubhouse part of living for others, or do your values get in the way to do what these others deem as good?

isee,


Quote:

"Also, it's been shown that when other people witness kind acts, they become kinder in response. It has a ripple effect, no matter who you are or what your likes and dislikes might be."

Ripple effect from your actions; kind acts, the kinder they become - your values becomes their values. Is this what makes a noble sacrifice worth it? What if they don't become kinder, still a meaningful act, for you?

Bobmoenroe:

I don't feel as if your questions serve a constructive purpose and I don't want to have a meaningless debate.

Quote:

"I don't feel as if your questions serve a constructive purpose and I don't want to have a meaningless debate."

What happened to selfless and living for others? Err.. potentially meaningless questions. Ok then. Moving on.

wrote on May 31^st, 2013 at 10:36am:

isee, Quote: "Also, it's been shown that when other people witness kind acts, they become kinder in response. It has a ripple effect, no matter who you are or what your likes and dislikes might be." Ripple effect from your actions; kind acts, the kinder they become - your values becomes their values. Is this what makes a noble sacrifice worth it? What if they don't become kinder, still a meaningful act, for you?

BobMoenroe,

1) The ripple effect is simply a fact. "My values becoming their values" is beside the point. I don't know about you, but a kinder world is a "plus" in my book. Would a kinder world made by even by one person such as myself, if the kind acts are done respectfully, be a negative? How so?

2) If some people don't become kinder, it's not my problem unless I make it one -- or unless those people create problems for me. There's still no harm in modeling kind behaviors, whatever those might be. And an act of kindness can have many meanings, not just one. For instance, an act can have more than one outcome for more than one person.

My opinion is that your questions lean toward power/control issues. Is the questioning of others' motives a personal "trust" issue for you?

Perhaps someone/something has taught you not to take others' words at face value. I don't know. Maybe it's your own kind of "crazy wisdom".

But, if someone doesn't want to "take you on" -- so what?

Because you seem to champion personal boundaries so often I find it odd that when someone just tried to set a boundary with you, framing their response with their own personal opinion, it is portrayed as being somehow hypocritical.

isee,

I don't feel as if your questions serve a constructive purpose and I don't want to have a meaningless debate.

No problem. Have a nice day.

Isee,

For what it is worth, I thought your questions were written with thought, respect and without malice.  It is Bob's right to disengage, and he did.

I don't feel that Love is a trite bandwagon that New Agers cling to but don't practice - for me, it is quite real.  I don't feel the need to change the belief system of others, but like to share what I feel or what I know.  And I absolutely get what you mean when you say that you can act with kindness without reciprocity or expectation, even in the face of unkindness.

Matthew

I also agree with: if you bliss out continually, with no thought of others, then there is little gain. I remember 40 years ago when I read T. Lobsang Rampa's series of books coming across a story about a lama who meditated for three days at a time in a cave. He had a "keeper" who was assigned to him, who opened the lama's cave door, poked the lama out of his meditation, fed and bathe the lama, clean any excrement before leaving, then seal the opening to the cave so the lama could go another three days of meditating. I perceived this as being very selfish.  He was suppose to be praying for the planet, but he also astral traveled to other dimensions.   In the mean time, the keeper had to grow the food, gather cleaning supplies, clean and distribute the food and care for his own family while the lama sat in one spot "meditating". I kept thinking to myself; "Well, if the lama didn't want to be reincarnated to human form, then why did he agree only to hide himself away from the planet he came to and did nothing to help another human being?"  Of course, the argument is: he did this so the caregiver would learn something.
I see that type of praying (like a true cloister) is very selfish. What do you actually contribute to the betterment of human kind? I meditate and pray, but I also know that others have a need for me to be present in their lives to contribute to their growth and my growth. Just MY thoughts on the subject :P.  No offence to anyone who may be cloistered and choose that way of existing. This is not my experience in this lifetime. 
I think the most important thing here is to remember; we all make choices before we incarnate.  We pick a road, and wonder down it to find ourselves.   

My knowledge i've taken to my friends and family to help them with their questions that they've had about the other side. Also as a consequence to meditation and reading these forums, I've gained psychic insight.