In true scientific fashion, afterlife research should be approached with he initial assumption that it should be explained away as illusion if the evidence does not compel a more credulous conclusion.  This thread focuses on 10 basic assumptions that are usually not evidentially analyzed, but rather embraced or rejected through a doctrinaire Ghetto mentality.  I hope this thread can be discussed sequentially (1)- (10) for purposes of coherence.  I hope you will allow me to serve as moderator in the sense that I'll only shift the discussion to the next assumption when the current discussion seems to have run its course. So let's begin with a focussed discussion on Assumption #1.

1. The assumption that the Being of Light [BL] is the same entity for everyone—that if love radiates from the BL, the NDEr must be a loving or spiritually well developed person: (a) Some NDErs describe the the Being of Light [BL] and their Paradise [= park] as brighter than the sun.  For others, the BL and Paradise are not experienced as unusally bright.  Is this difference due to different BLs of varying eminence?  Or is it due to the spiritual development and perceptual skills of the NDEr? 
(b) Is it possible that ecstasy gets confused as PUL and that different Beings of Light radiate different emotive experiences?  Is the PUL designation often just jargon rooted in wishful thinking rather than actual experience?

2. The assumption that the NDEr's identification of the BL is always projected on the basis of expectations: In most NDEs, the BL  does not identify itself; rather NDErs project a comfortable identification onto it.  Yet in other cases, Jesus explicitly identifies Himself as the BL to Christians, atheists, and in one case a Muslim.  Yet Muslims never seem to see Muhammad;  rather, they identify the BL as Allah (their word for “God”).  Does the BL often lie or deceive in the name of love so as not to alarm the NDEr with an unknown or disturbing identity?

3. The assumption that Paradise (the Park) is generally the same plane (e. g.. Focus 27): Why not instead assume that each BST has a Park, a Reception Area, and Rehabilitation Center?  (a) Some NDEers experience Paradise as containing many colors unknown on earth; others experience no new colors.  (b) Some Christian NDErs experience the flowers and water (including waterfalls) as not only alive, but as producing musical harmonies.  The NDEr can experience these harmonies individually or collectively as one all-encompassing cosmic harmony.  One NDEr insists that these musical harmonies even surpassed reunions with loved ones as ultimately satisfying.  Should these differences be explained as different spirit levels? Or should they be explained as varying levels of spiritual development and perception skills focused on the same plane?  (c) ES learns that even evil people can begin their postmortem journey by exploring the beautiful Park region, before they are drawn down to lower planes through the gradual application of  the principle that like attracts like. 

4. The assumption that PUL is a basic force in the universe: Love is by nature reflexive in that its reality depends on being  other-directed.
How can PUL exist as an impersonal force?  Does it not assume a conscious or self-conscious Source that gives and receives love and thus presume the existence of a loving God?  One of the Monroe doctrines is this: “There is no good; there is no evil.  There is only experience.”  But do not the “purity” and “unconditional nature” of PUL imply a set of moral principles that are the equivalent of absolute truths which imply the existence of both good and evil, depending on the extent of the application or violation of these implicit moral rules?

5. The assumption of a monism in which there is no past or future, only an eternal now: some NDErs claim to experience themselves as one with all  that is.  In that mystical union, some claim to discover the [soon repressed] answers to all their most profound questions.  Are these monistic experiences metaphysically profound?  Or they symptoms of mental dissociation caused by an impaired brain w ith delusions of grandeur?  What implicatons do these monistic NDE experiences have for apparently contradictory linear NDE experiences of a self enduring over time that has sequential experiences, whether the same as our time or a different type of time perception?

6. The contrary assumption that detailed knowledge of afterlife “geographies” or “patterns of lifestyles” is impossible due the mental nature of these realms: Some NDErs and astral projectors experience a sequence of events in Paradise.  Why can such sequences be collected and compared thus allowing us to piece together a profile of life as a series of events in Paradise? During OBEs to spirit planes, why are patterns of typical life events so hard to establish?  Can the nonphysical aspect of these planes adequately explain why the many “geographical journeys” are not conducive to mapping in a way that assists future astral travelers?

7. The assumption that structural models of the afterlife are inevitably contradictory due to the diversity and complexity of the many planes:
Why are there so many apparently contradictory models of the astral planes (Monroe-Moen vs. Eckandar, vs. Swedenborg, vs. classical occultists (e. g. Rudolph Steiner)?  In my view, it seems woefully inadequate to explain these contradictions in terms of the fact/ interpretation muddle, the elephant/ blind man analogy, or spirit deception.  But how can we discern the bogus from the genuine without better verifications? 

8. The assumption that most of the newly dead do not try to contact their earthly loved ones in a convincing way that reassures them:  Most of us would want to do this; yet truly compelling ADCs are erlatively rare.  Still, some dead spirits confirm their survival in truly spectacular fashion.  Why is their method or skill not routinely taught by astral guides in the name of love?  Do the new discarnates find it undesirable or impossible to perform ADCs?  Or does this prospect seldom even occur to them in the confusion and trauma of their newly discarnate condition? 

9. The assumption that discarnate spirits have good recall of their earth lives and thus communicate with chatty ease through mediums:
Yet some astral exploration suggest the opposite—the severe impairment of earth memories [ES] or even memories of astral planes from which one has descended (Robert Bruce].  Are most of the newly dead unable to recall their earth lives, beyond a vague dream?  How can they face their new challenges with an intertwining of earthly and postmortem memories?  In my view, this discrepancy is another nail in the coffin of mental mediumship. 
 
10. The assumption that past life recall and Soul Disks are realities in the astral planes: (a) What could life possibly be like in a Soul Disk?  To me, it sounds suffocating, but what do I know?  (b) Some NDEs contain past life recall; others do not; still other astral travelers (e. g. Swedenborg) are assured that reincarnation memories are misunderstood spirit mergers in which the invasive spirits memories seem like one's own.  In another NDE, (e. g. Howard Storm's), the traveler is assured that reincarnation is not the norm, but possible.

Berserk2 wrote on Jan 18^th, 2013 at 6:36pm:

...astral travelers (e. g. Swedenborg) are assured...

Well, Swedenborg thought he was the Second Coming of Jesus Christ,
which occurred, not by Christ in person, but by a revelation from Him
through the inner, spiritual sense of the Word through Swedenborg.

Praise the Lord.

Hallelujha!

Berserk2 wrote on Jan 18^th, 2013 at 6:36pm:

In another NDE, (e. g. Howard Storm's), the traveler is assured that reincarnation is not the norm, but possible.

  Oh Lordy Don, you are a stubborn one aren't you?   Here it goes one more time.  The mainstream, traditional kind of reincarnation IS somewhat rare e.g. "not the norm".   The I/There and Disk concept of Consciousness and incarnations is a fairly new concept.  I do think there may have been something like it before, in relation to a concept and term called "Monad", but generally speaking up till now, reincarnation has generally and widely been thought of in the traditional way-- an individual gets born into physical, dies and goes into the nonphysical, and then gets born again. 

  What the Light Beings told Storm is absolutely correct, reincarnation as it is thought of in the typical and usual way is "possible, but not the norm."  I couldn't AGREE more. 

  While i suspect you probably think me a deluded, imbalanced megalomaniac (probably a pretty common perception here of me), i've had some interesting experiences and verifications relating to guidance about this issue, and not just from me, but also from my wife Becky whom i've been with for 12, almost 13 years now. 

  Here is an example and i will briefly summarize it.  Becky had a dream wherein she knew she was communicating with a sensitive, guide type.  She told her some stuff about us, and Becky was like in her mind, "yeah, yeah, i know that."  Then the woman told her our "spiritual names".   She could only remember mine sounded like a version of "William" in Russian. 

  Well, surprisingly, i didn't delve too much into it for quite awhile.  But i did end up doing some research, and i found that "Vasya" is a common Russian derivative of the name William. 

   A Norwegian friend of mine, a very psychic and sensitive lady who also deeply respects and is very drawn to the Cayce work, pointed out to me one day that "Vasya", if pronounced in the correct way, sounds a lot like "Was Ra" (in Russian, "V's" sound more like "W's").  So, tricky guidance was in a sense giving me my "spiritual name", but more so was telling me my original name that i had in another life. 

   I think Becky had the dream, to make it have a more powerful impact on me.  The fact that neither of us "got this" for quite awhile, also made it more affecting to me. 

   In other words, i am one of those somewhat rare cases of literal reincarnation of a Disk "member" or "probe".  My other self was born with the name Ra Ta and later changed it to just "Ra".  Ra is a Disk member of Cayce's, but i am definitely not the "literal reincarnation" of Cayce, just as Bruce Moen is not the literal reincarnation of Bob Monroe.  They are part of the same Disk. 

  This actually was confirmed to me some years ago when i had a dream wherein i was in a class in which Bruce was teaching.  His face morphed into Bob's for a bit, then back to Bruces, mixed for a little while and then went back to Bruces.  The message was very clear, the Disk concept is correct and Bruce was telling the truth about his connection to Bob.  Just even look at the sounds of their commonly used names.  Bob Monroe, Bruce Moen, there is a similar phonetic sound/cadence and rhythm there.  (not that this necessarily has to be a connection, but i find it interesting).

   But, i am fully, fully aware that i'm wasting my breath on this with you, but i write more for any newbies, or people who may be more open mindedly on the fence about the differences between Disk incarnations and literal, traditional ones.  Re: my connection to Cayce's Disk, well both my wife and i have had so many synchronistic experiences, verifications, and "coincidences" with this, i have stopped doubting it.   

  Here is one just really simply and cosmically funny little coincidence.  Gladys Davis, Edgar's secretary was said to be Edgar's "Twin Soul".  In one reading for her, it clearly stated that in their next lifetime together, they would be together in the way they yearned for in that life (as they had been in some other lives--"mates"), but couldn't be because Edgar was already married to Gertrude. 

   Each person who got a reading from Edgar, was assigned a number sequence to protect their identity.  Glady's was 288.  Since there is no such thing as a 0 reading, well the start of Glady's readings from Cayce was 288-1--the moment of the creation of her reading set and existence. 

   Becky's birthdate in standard, American number sequence and usage is 2/8/81 (Feb. 8th 1981) aka 2881 the same number sequence of the above.  By itself, probably doesn't mean much, but we both have had so many experiences which have blown our minds, stuff we couldn't possibly have made up because it involved other people, etc. 

  Interestingly, Gladys was born under Aquarius Sun, and she also died when the Sun was in Aquarius.  Becky also happens to have been born under Aquarius Sun.  Cayce's guidance noted a few times, that such cycles or patterns sometimes happened.  In one specific reading, a young baby had died on August 31st.  A number of years later, a young couple came to get a reading for their newborn, and was told that their newborn was a former newborn who had died very young.  The new, newborn's birthday was August 31, and Cayce's guidance specifically said, "hence a cycle, as recorded in holy writ".  (some of the Biblical Prophets and seers were quite interested in such cycles, like Solomon).  Cayce died Jan. 3rd approx. 7 p.m.  I was born Jan. 8th approx. 7 p.m.   

   I'm not saying this happens all the time, and like i said before, if any one of these incidences were taken alone, they wouldn't amount to much, but taken altogether with a bunch of experiences, dreams, and various other "guidance" messages, well we have become fairly sure there is something to it. 

   But yes, literal, traditional reincarnation is fairly rare.  Once an individual finishes an inphysical life, usually they feel something akin to, "ok, that's done with and out of the way, thanks for the experience but i would rather not hop on that ride again, pretty damn intense it was." 

     The one other case of literal reincarnation that i know of in my Disk "history", was a case of one of my selves screwing up so much in that life, that it was like he wanted and got a "re-do" to try to redeem himself, and was born under eerily similar circumstances, same first and last name, born in same area in England, traveled to the same places in America, lived a very similar life as a soldier of fortune, originally came to America as a mercenary, created quite a havoc with the native Lasses, etc, etc. and both were pretty selfish, and at times hurtful people.  The one big difference though, is that the 2nd John, died saving others.  That was the redemption that we were looking for.

    In my case, aka Ra to Justin, it's because i wanted to help out as a facilitator during this very momentous, extreme, opportunity and potential transformation filled cycle.  I came less for myself and more for others, but hopefully in helping others i can get to the "next level" so to speak--full Christ Consciousness (i've received many dreams and other messages relating to this, also Becky has had dreams for me related to this).   

  RE: the nature of such a connection to a "semi famous" person, Edgar Cayce, in all honesty, most of my life i have prayed to God earnestly to be more "normal", to be able to fit in, etc.  This is much like how Edgar felt most of his life, even before he considered the validity of reincarnation. 

  Re: the Disk concept, it's not specifically outlined in the Cayce readings, however, it is very, very, very strongly hinted at.  Here is the case, Cayce's guidance rarely, rarely ever "named itself".  However, in one unusual case, it listed off a number of individuals involved in helping with a particular reading.  One of the  individuals listed was "Ra Ta/Ra".  Wait a minute, Cayce's guidance said that one of his "past lives" was as Ra Ta/Ra, so how could, from a traditional, literal reincarnation standpoint could Ra and Edgar be in the same room or space with each other?   What's strongly inferred from current knowledge is that they are fellow "Disk members". 

  I don't think people were specifically ready for that concept back then, Cayce's guidance was already blowing enough minds with all the info it shared, and so "they" simplified things and spoke of incarnations in a more traditional way usually.  After all, we ARE our Disk and vice versa--there is no real separation there. 

   Since you have currently come across at least a couple of sources you have a deep respect for that say that reincarnation is possible and occasionally happens, why are you so resistant to the fact that maybe it's more often the Disk member process..but... with the occasional, rare literal reincarnation?   

   Like Albert said on another thread, it just makes sense that one, or even just a couple of physical lifetimes isn't enough to help an entity to grow to the point of being fully One with the Creator and a true Co-Creator. 

 

   

   

Regarding Assumption #1,
I’ve seen many NDE/OB  reports that do not identify the Being in the BL. Sometimes it was impersonally referred to as ‘a Source of All Knowledge,' hardly a being at all. Some reports say said they recognized it was a personal Master of some sort, but did not mention the historical JC.
Maybe we could say that the intent of the NDEr affects how much of the Light they experience. Intent might be unconscious, and so affects how much they allow themselves to experience.
In such a nebulous realm of experience, how can one make any hard judgement about the spiritual development and perceptual skills of the NDEr?

b)  I think the ecstasy arises from the exchange of PUL and not separate from it or in some sort of contrast to it. PUL seems to have some magnetic aspects to it, just as physical humans are ‘drawn in’ by an emotionally warm person. “A flow of magnetic energy" would be part of my definition of PUL, based upon my PUL experiences. PUL with another being of PUL would surely include an exchange of loving feeling/ PUL and in that way create ecstasy. Ecstasy would be created by the non-threatening mutual bombardment of magnetic -- what? ions? PUL and ecstasy are both very real, imo.

Bets

Quote:

Justinus, "Becky's birthdate in standard, American number sequence and usage is 2/8/81 (Feb. 8th 1981) aka 2881 the same number sequence of the above.  By itself, probably doesn't mean much, but we both have had so many experiences which have blown our minds, stuff we couldn't possibly have made up because it involved other people, etc."

Ok, in a thread about assumptions, let's make one, even if it doesn't make completely sense:

Becky's sequence, backwards, is 1882. The alpha and omega numbers add up to the number 3. That's the platform for my assumption. Now, anything special about February 3 1882?

P. T. Barnum purchases the elephant Jumbo. The London zookeeper association leader Anoshan Anathajeyasri gave Jumbo his name; it is likely a variation of one of two Swahili words: jambo, which means "hello" or jumbe, which means "chief".

But I digress. This is a hot topic -> hot -> Australia -> "hot" band from Australia -> song title: mind mischief, or mind misjumbe, if you will.

Phew. That was quite a stretch, but finally, I present to you the above song. Obviously I can't play it from 2:81, but surely from 2:18. "She remembers my name", the guy sings. Maybe your norwegian friend was correct. Maybe it isn't an assumption. Though, she didn't point out though how Vasya sounds like was ya/you.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IF5E2X55_kg#t=2m18s

Quote:

In true scientific fashion, afterlife research should be approached with the initial assumption that it should be explained away as illusion if the evidence does not compel a more credulous conclusion. 1. The assumption that the Being of Light [BL] is the same entity for everyone—that if love radiates from the BL, the NDEr must be a loving or spiritually well developed person: (a) Some NDErs describe the Being of Light [BL] and their Paradise [= park] as brighter than the sun. For others, the BL and Paradise are not experienced as unusually bright. Is this difference due to different BLs of varying eminence? Or is it due to the spiritual development and perceptual skills of the NDEr? (b) Is it possible that ecstasy gets confused as PUL and that different Beings of Light radiate different emotive experiences? Is the PUL designation often just jargon rooted in wishful thinking rather than actual experience?

Don,

Actually, I think it's your first unmentioned assumption that is incorrect.  You're assuming the BL is fundamentally real.  It's not.  A BL is a metaphor or symbol likely created by the consciousness system or less likely, the person having the experience.  The only thing that is fundamentally real is the love that radiates from the BL.  Whatever experience a person has during his/her NDE is orchestrated to meet the needs of that individual for their own personal growth. They are given exactly what is needed for them to change their life in productive ways as nearly all NDEer's testify.

As someone that has experienced proximity to a BL on several occasions, I can also say in my experience the BL communicates ineffably, yet I utterly understood all that was communicated.

Experiencing a BL makes no difference as to one's spiritual development or lack thereof.  A BL's brightness is likely due to someone's interpretation though I have had some experiences where the BL was bright and I myself, was a dimmer brightness.  What was interesting about that experience is that the love the BL radiated and the love that radiated out from me was the same.  Made me wonder if I was experiencing my soul on that particular occasion.

I have also experienced many other beings as what I call "lights of love" that look like beautiful stars that radiate beautiful love.  One could say we all are beings of light and love at our core.  It is only fear and ego that block our core from shining through.

Kathy

People who have had a number of spiritual experiences that showed and told them that in some way the disk viewpoint is true, wouldn't be true to their own experience if they gave up the viewpoint simply because it doesn't make sense to somebody else.

It is possible to find out about this disk thing in a way that is much more than one's imagination spinning out.

Should've Moses received an 11th commandment that says, "Thou shall not believe in the disk concept, because God wasn't allowed to use such a mode of creation"?

Of course not. Why should God, the Creator, Source Being, whatever term you like to use, be able to use such a method? There isn't something inately evil about it. Plus eventually we reach the point where we share information with many beings without being rigidly defined by what we learn, except for maybe the important stuff like love.

Re: assumption number 1.

No, the being of light is not the same for everyone because everyone is unique. Why would their experience be exactly the same as someone else? Some people love the quiet life of the shadow -- others are thrilled with an explosion of light. We come back from the experience knowing we are loved. What else matters?

Below are some responses within brackets.

[quote author=5D7A6D6C7A6D742D1F0 link=1358548603/0#0 date=1358548603]In true scientific fashion, afterlife research should be approached with he initial assumption that it should be explained away as illusion if the evidence does not compel a more credulous conclusion.  This thread focuses on 10 basic assumptions that are usually not evidentially analyzed, but rather embraced or rejected through a doctrinaire Ghetto mentality.  I hope this thread can be discussed sequentially (1)- (10) for purposes of coherence.  I hope you will allow me to serve as moderator in the sense that I'll only shift the discussion to the next assumption when the current discussion seems to have run its course. So let's begin with a focussed discussion on Assumption #1.

1. The assumption that the Being of Light [BL] is the same entity for everyone—that if love radiates from the BL, the NDEr must be a loving or spiritually well developed person: (a) Some NDErs describe the the Being of Light [BL] and their Paradise [= park] as brighter than the sun.  For others, the BL and Paradise are not experienced as unusally bright.  Is this difference due to different BLs of varying eminence?  Or is it due to the spiritual development and perceptual skills of the NDEr?

[Going by the NDEs I read, people experience different beings of light. A few first met a being of light and were later introduced to Jesus.]

(b) Is it possible that ecstasy gets confused as PUL and that different Beings of Light radiate different emotive experiences?  Is the PUL designation often just jargon rooted in wishful thinking rather than actual experience?

[It is possible that some beings of light are more evolved than others. It also possible that some people are more open to receiving light than others. The way that many NDEers describe their experience of love sounds like more than just jargon. Surely it possible for a person to know if he (or she) is actually experiencing love. Especially if one experiences it in a profound way.]

2. The assumption that the NDEr's identification of the BL is always projected on the basis of expectations: In most NDEs, the BL  does not identify itself; rather NDErs project a comfortable identification onto it.  Yet in other cases, Jesus explicitly identifies Himself as the BL to Christians, atheists, and in one case a Muslim.  Yet Muslims never seem to see Muhammad;  rather, they identify the BL as Allah (their word for “God”).  Does the BL often lie or deceive in the name of love so as not to alarm the NDEr with an unknown or disturbing identity?

[There might be occasions when a BL shows a  person what the person is open to seeing. Nevertheless, I've read NDEs where it seemed clear that a person actually did meet Jesus. There are also the cases I mentioned earlier, where a BL introduces a person to Jesus and people are quite impressed with how much love, light and vastness Jesus radiates.]

3. The assumption that Paradise (the Park) is generally the same plane (e. g.. Focus 27): Why not instead assume that each BST has a Park, a Reception Area, and Rehabilitation Center?  (a) Some NDEers experience Paradise as containing many colors unknown on earth; others experience no new colors.  (b) Some Christian NDErs experience the flowers and water (including waterfalls) as not only alive, but as producing musical harmonies.  The NDEr can experience these harmonies individually or collectively as one all-encompassing cosmic harmony.  One NDEr insists that these musical harmonies even surpassed reunions with loved ones as ultimately satisfying.  Should these differences be explained as different spirit levels? Or should they be explained as varying levels of spiritual development and perception skills focused on the same plane?  (c) ES learns that even evil people can begin their postmortem journey by exploring the beautiful Park region, before they are drawn down to lower planes through the gradual application of  the principle that like attracts like.

[I once had an experience that made the point that each Soul experiences what it needs to experience after it dies. I believe this relates: The NDE hell-like experiences I read about and listened to (youtube), each NDEer experienced hell in a different way, each asked for help, and each received it.] 

4. The assumption that PUL is a basic force in the universe: Love is by nature reflexive in that its reality depends on being  other-directed.
How can PUL exist as an impersonal force?  Does it not assume a conscious or self-conscious Source that gives and receives love and thus presume the existence of a loving God?  One of the Monroe doctrines is this: “There is no good; there is no evil.  There is only experience.”  But do not the “purity” and “unconditional nature” of PUL imply a set of moral principles that are the equivalent of absolute truths which imply the existence of both good and evil, depending on the extent of the application or violation of these implicit moral rules?

[I don't believe that love is impersonal in the way you mean because it would be meaningless if there aren't any conscious beings to experience it and live according to it. "Impersonal" could mean "not selective" and "self serving."

Regarding good and evil, the more one lives according to love, the more one is going to care about others. As a result one will "care" when others experience negative things, such as people who are effected by the evil actions of others.

If we're going to have freewill, the negative possibilities can't be avoided. Therefore, if one wants to accept the creative process, one has to except that negative things are going to take place. This is okay if in the end everything works out.

I believe you (Don) make too big of a deal of Robert Monroe's statements about good and evil. I don't believe he was fooled by a dark being, and I don't believe that he didn't understand the difference between right and wrong. It's important to consider the context.]

5. The assumption of a monism in which there is no past or future, only an eternal now: some NDErs claim to experience themselves as one with all  that is.  In that mystical union, some claim to discover the [soon repressed] answers to all their most profound questions.  Are these monistic experiences metaphysically profound?  Or they symptoms of mental dissociation caused by an impaired brain w ith delusions of grandeur?  What implicatons do these monistic NDE experiences have for apparently contradictory linear NDE experiences of a self enduring over time that has sequential experiences, whether the same as our time or a different type of time perception?

[I believe that some people do experience oneness with all that is. We can experience as much as we allow ourselves to experience. The problem occurs when people try to interpret the meaning of such experiences afterwards. For example, afterwards, one might mistakingly believe that individuality doesn't exist at all. This might lead such a person to believe that he is the all. Rather, we are all just small parts of the all, and as I already said (with different words), it is possible for a part to become aware of the all. Sort of like a wave in an ocean can take a peek and see that many other waves exist, and all these waves and itself are a part of the same ocean.]

[I'll respond to the other questions at another time. I already responded to the disk issue.]

Kathy,

Some NDErs claim that the BL is not a spirit at all, but rather a radiance from a spiritual plane.  If that is true, it would explain why the BL itself normally offers no identification. But it might also mean that the luminosity differs for various plane levels and that spirits are drawn to each level based on like attracts like, i. e. based on their spiritual development.  Or alternately it might mean that the plane is generally the same (the Gateway to the afterlife), but that the recognition of degrees of brightness is a function of the NDEr's level of spiritual perception or development.

But what about the minority of cases in which the BL actually identifies itself as Christ, even to atheists and Muslims?  Perhaps Christ only shows up to selective individuals for unknown reasons as a different Being than the BL, which may not be conscious entity in itself.  NDErs might confuse rotes that emanate from an unseen spirit (e. g. Christ) with the BL itself which is merely the light of that particular plane. 

It seems that astral travelers often don't get answers unless they pose the right questions, so that revelation is limited and unique to the traveler's personal journey.  In this respect, I worry about ES's point that spirit impersonation and deception is to be expected.  But how this variable should be factored in is yet to be explained.  Presumably, counterfeit PUL (ecstasy) is also a factor; but if so, how can it be identified? 

Since recoverer did not respect my request that discussion focus on each topic in sequence, I will ignore his off topic posts. 

Don

Don:

If you look again, you'll see that I did an okay job of responding.

Professor Berserk:

If this is to proceed in true scientific fashion, we should set some agreements on perception and conciousness. The reason that science works is that we can agree on the tools used to measure and the interpretation os the measurements. (well... that is how is it SUPPOSED to work).

We have no such agreement here. Perception has a degree of poetic license and we all assume we have a right to take poetic license in interpretation. We can't quantify perception. That makes making this discussion scientific very difficult. You will have a high level of what is called noise in your measurements.

Yet we go though life basing what we do, how we live, not on science, but on what our personal experiences are. That's all we really have. All science can do is invite us to experience life in a different fashion. Wait...doesn't that mean our thoughts and beliefs and ideas can lead our experiences?

More discussion needed on the allowable rules of perception.

hi don  love you all juditha xxx


Dear Sweet Universe...

I send my prayer, with all that I am
Empty me completely so that I may be filled to overflowing
With only beautiful Love
I wish not to know fear or pride
I only wish to know Love
In the air I breathe, with every breath I take
In the world I see, with every glimpse I take
In my hands, with everything I touch
In my heart, with every beat
In my spirit, with every vibration
Let it flow like a river through my being and never cease
I want nothing else
Because there is nothing more
Love is the answer
Love is the key
Love heals all wounds
Love never fails
Let me always radiate Love
Let my heart beats to its rhythm
For Love will always be enough

i dont know who wrote this but it is so true

love and god bless  love juditha xxx

Berserk2 wrote on Jan 18^th, 2013 at 6:36pm:

I hope you will allow me to serve as moderator...

We will not serve you in that way.

I like this:

Quote:

...We come back from the experience knowing we are loved. What else matters?

_____

I had a particular life experience that for me was exceedingly violent. It tossed me into a place I had never been before. It was as thought I could constantly hear the nazgul screaming. Rage and terror were constants in my memory. Reality had a rip in it. In reading Bill Moyers interview with Joseph Campbell, I found Campbell's discussion of  the firebombing of Dreaden; people there described the horror and then said the experience was sublime; I knew what they meant. I had gone to a place I never knew existed.

See, there is one of the problems of perception. I was an adult and I thought I knew enough about reality to say that I understood fear and anger and sort of tried to eliminate both. But there was this other experience...there is always some other experience... you can never assume you know all experiences. That is one reason it is difficult to quantify perception.

So one evening during this time period (which lasted measured in years not months) as I was trying to fall asleep, I somehow slipped into this wonderful ecstatic state of inner peace. I had sought this kind of relief but hadn't found it, and here it was. As I drifted off to sleep, I thought, oh, it is all going to be OK.

Except that the next morning it was gone, and I haven't quite yet found the way to get back to the ecstacy.  But I do wonder, not only how do I get back there, but also, how did I fall out of it? Why didn't it stay?

Yes it would be nice to have a near death experience...without the near death part of course!

But I think the question of why we don't experience the PUL state, why do we fall out of it, is somehow just as relevant here as is asking why do individuals see what they do when they find their way back to it.

Hi Lucy,                                                                                                                                                                         I don't know if this relates to what you say... I had an experience that occurred over a period of years, one that was scary & sublime. The few times I tried to talk about it, most folks couldn't understand why I wasn't experiencing bliss & happiness when these out-of-time moments happened. Well, it was happenning to me,  not them; perhaps they would respond differently but until they underwent the same thing they couldn't really understand & I couldn't fault them for that. Years after these experiences passed, I read something that gave me some perspective... it was something like "experiences of awakening aren't necessarily joyous; they can be disorienting & not pleasurable. Bliss or sadness or whatever state are side-effects of awakening experiences and are temporary and unimportant in themselves. They are states that pass and not the thing-itself. The books that tell you that enlightenment is a permanent state of bliss are trying to sell you something that can't be bought. Don't fall in love with a passing state and wish to make it permament...." I'm paraphrasing badly. What was useful to me was to be told that there was nothing wrong with me for feeling disoriented & uncomfortable, that it was normal to feel that way during such times.                                                                                                                                          Tim

It may be possible that whatever it is that the concept "PUL" points to is a quality of the unchanging something-or-other that underlies all our experience of life. Its expression doesn't necessarily have to be dramatic. It could be something as simple as a soft smile & the felt acknowledgement that you & I don't truly exist apart from each other. PUL might be something as simple as relaxed attention with no agenda.

Quote:

Some NDErs claim that the BL is not a spirit at all, but rather a radiance from a spiritual plane. If that is true, it would explain why the BL itself normally offers no identification. But it might also mean that the luminosity differs for various plane levels and that spirits are drawn to each level based on like attracts like, i. e. based on their spiritual development. Or alternately it might mean that the plane is generally the same (the Gateway to the afterlife), but that the recognition of degrees of brightness is a function of the NDEr's level of spiritual perception or development. But what about the minority of cases in which the BL actually identifies itself as Christ, even to atheists and Muslims? Perhaps Christ only shows up to selective individuals for unknown reasons as a different Being than the BL, which may not be conscious entity in itself. NDErs might confuse rotes that emanate from an unseen spirit (e. g. Christ) with the BL itself which is merely the light of that particular plane.

Don,

The BL has never identified itself to me, and frankly I've never thought to ask.  I also have not been able to go to the BL using my intent. My encounters with it are not from a NDE. It has always appeared to me when I least expect it and it seems the same every time.  Perhaps it is like an interface with the consciousness system.  I've never really thought about whether or not it's a radiance from a spiritual plane.  If it is, it can and does communicate with me.

To give you a visual of what I see... there is an immense blackness that is hard to describe, but the blackness is a light unto itself and seems alive with potential. The BL is a bright radiating, glowing light from which I feel the most incredibly beautiful love radiating forth from it. I perceive myself as a point of light or consciousness and I am not at all aware that I even have a body until I feel myself go back into it. Even though I know it is a wonderful gift to be here in ELS, each time I've had this experience, I feel saddened by having to be in my body. I'd very much prefer to be with the BL.

I haven't ever seen Jesus' face, however, one time I felt him lay his hand on the side of my face and after that I felt his presence and guidance almost constantly for quite a number of years.  I can't explain how I knew it was him, but I felt certain it was then and now as I think back on the experience. It was like he was continually present and I felt abandoned when I was on my own to continue my growth process.  Perhaps if there is a need Christ appears to a person.  I would say that the BL and Christ are not the same, however, there's no reason that Christ could not appear as a BL if he so chose.

I use to think there were various levels, however, I've come to recognize that there is no hierarchy.  Each plane or dimension (virtual reality) is governed by its own consciousness or what could also be thought of as rules/laws that exist within it, actually create it along with the beings that occupy it. One plane of existence is not spiritually higher or lower than another, only different depending on the purpose it serves.

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It seems that astral travelers often don't get answers unless they pose the right questions, so that revelation is limited and unique to the traveler's personal journey. In this respect, I worry about ES's point that spirit impersonation and deception is to be expected. But how this variable should be factored in is yet to be explained. Presumably, counterfeit PUL (ecstasy) is also a factor; but if so, how can it be identified?

A lot of times getting answers is dependent on the person's ability to access information and then interpret the information correctly without bias. Not always easy to do since all we really know is our ELS experiences. Asking direct, precise questions is key as you've mentioned. Why do you worry about ES's point that spirit impersonation/deception is to be expected? I would both agree and disagree with him depending on the context. Why do you say ecstasy is counterfeit PUL?

Kathy

Griffin wrote on Jan 20^th, 2013 at 2:28pm:

It may be possible that whatever it is that the concept "PUL" points to is a quality of the unchanging something-or-other that underlies all our experience of life. Its expression doesn't necessarily have to be dramatic. It could be something as simple as a soft smile & the felt acknowledgement that you & I don't truly exist apart from each other. PUL might be something as simple as relaxed attention with no agenda.

Tim,

I really like these descriptions.  I've also had disoriented and uncomfortable non-physical experiences.  I like what you read in your previous post.  For the most part I felt like the times I had these types of experiences had to do with my own fear and ego and these were ways of pointing them out as well as giving me solutions at times. Other times it seemed as though these were tests.

Kathy

[Kathy:] Why do you say that ecstasy is counterfeit PUL?

Walter Pahnke scientifically studied the question of whether the classical symptoms of mystical experience could be replicated by psychoactive drugs like psilocybin.  So an experimental group of Harvard Divinity School students were given this drug in the chapel on Good Friday evening and a control group of students were given a placebo. Initially no one knew who received what. Those given the psilocybin generally experienced all the classical symptons of authentic mystical experience.  But their ecstasy, though very pleasant, did not produce the long-term transforming effect of a disciplined mystic's spiritual experiences. 

I myself have experienced intense satisfying ecstasy through speaking in tongues, but was later able to doubt the paranormal authenticity of such experiences.  But these episodes lacked the long-term impact of another experience (about which I have posted) which was light-years more paranormally powerful and transformative, whose genuineness was later impossible for me to doubt. 

So PUL can generate great ecstasy, but not all ecstasy is PUL.   But is PUL a proper phrase for the best calibre BL experiences?  The Christian word for PUL  (Greek: "agape") designates a way of  being and thus the terms 'pure" and "unconditional" can be measured in cmparision with impurities for motivation and conduct and strings attached to our love (implicit conditions).  But in NDEs PUL is an experience, not necessarily a way of being.  So what imprurites and strings attached are the foil for contrasting the experience of NDE PUL?  If "pure" and "unconditional" are appropriate terms for NDE love, the presumably other NDErs may experience lower levels of these qualities, depending on the spirit plane reached. 

So when NDErs encounter a BL and don't comment on an overwhelming loving experience, I'm just suggesting that this difference MAY be spiritually significant.  Is the NDEr's perception or spiritual development less advanced?  Or is she just experiencing a lower spiritual plane?  Or perhaps a quiet peace can be just as authentic manifestion of BL PUL?  If we embrace the afterlife principle that like attracts like and the Monroe-Moen identification is hellish planes, does the course of one's NDE already hint at one's ultimate postmortem destination? 

The classical elements of the NDE (separation from the body, tunnel, BL, encounter with loved ones, arrival at a barrier or limit, past life review are archetypes, and as such, may or may not be experienced on the same spiritual plane.  When some NDErs experienced these archtypes in a less intense form or skip over them altogether, it is worth contemplating what this might mean.   People tend to make assumptions about such matters when they read about or hear NDE reports.  I'm just trying to stimulate reflection on these seldom asked questions.

Don

By analyzing the experiences in terms of reproducible shared archetypes or experiences, there is an implication that there should therefore be a rigid structure or architecture to the afterlife experience. 

Yet if mind or conscious thought is our true nature (spirit), then making sense out of NDEs, or trying to pigeon-hole and define these archetypical experiences may be a futile cause.  I have read accounts of NDEs of entire societies apart from the Western world.  Most interpret their experiences through their "filters" of belief.  Don, I know you like to cite the example of JC coming through to non-christians at times, yet there are entire cultures documented in the far East where the vast majority of people do not report this.  There are pantheons of deities, felt to be seen in the experience of millions of people when they meet light beings.  The "interpretor" inside is at work here, the people are given what is appropriate for their experience, and while most who read these accounts agree that there is no one single light being, I am sure that the light beings care less about earthly nomenclature, and more for the souls they encounter.

I believe these NDErs bring back what they can.  But unfortunately (or not), what they bring back is not an afterlife written in stone.  Don, even the NT has JC talk about many rooms in his father's house. 

Unfortunately, without a conduit to the afterlife or Bruce's two way radio, we can't get absolute answers to these issues here on earth. 

The lack of communication of the deceased with those of us here is certainly not due to a lack of love from them.  But there is a gulf between pure disembodied consciousness and the earth plane.  Also, when freed from a body and the earthly physical laws, we come to associate memories and experiences with whatever our new state of being is.  In that regard, I can't for the life of me think why any disincarnate spirit would rattle of their social security number, or many other verifications no longer relevant to their consciousness.  They no longer have physical bodies, brains, etc.  There are some spiritual equivalents, but we all most adjust to our new existence.

My own feeling is that the visits to the afterlife in which famous writers are still writing, musicians playing their beloved instruments on stage, etc. either occur on a low-level belief system plane (when the soul still associates with human/earthly tasks and realities) or is an analogy to what they used to do - the artist painting on a canvas of consciousness with colors never seen before, etc. 

Your inquiry into a logical analysis of the afterlife planes is a noble one, but may be unaccomplishable.  What is love?  Love "is."  That isn't very satisfying, but it is true.  To separate out temporary ecstasy (your speaking in tongues) from "true" love is an artificial distinction.  Why do you doubt your experience?

In trying to sort out a "real" afterlife plane, or a "real" love from a false one, I think you fall into the trap of the comfort of categorization or pigeon-holing a mental experience into defined, limited "knowns."   What if the experience defies categorization, and is only known via direct feeling or experience?

If love is a foundation of our actions, perhaps it can be expressed in limitless ways, as Griffin/Tim says (thanks for that post, Tim).  We seem to intuitively know when something is loving or unloving, yet we can go crazy second guessing ourselves or our experiences.

Don, for me, I welcome investigations into common experiences out of interest, but I believe the "truth" behind it will be mine to experience myself on an intuitive and emotional level, and the same will happen to each of us. 

Matthew

Quote:

Walter Pahnke scientifically studied the question of whether the classical symptoms of mystical experience could be replicated by psychoactive drugs like psilocybin. So an experimental group of Harvard Divinity School students were given this drug in the chapel on Good Friday evening and a control group of students were given a placebo. Initially no one knew who received what. Those given the psilocybin generally experienced all the classical symptoms of authentic mystical experience. But their ecstasy, though very pleasant, did not produce the long-term transforming effect of a disciplined mystic's spiritual experiences.

Yes, it's understandable that the drug would not produce a long-term transformation.  The drug would only act upon the body in biological ways, which can produce paranormal experience, but would disappear once the drug wore off.  The drug wouldn't change a person's quality of being at their core. There's no free ride.  A disciplined mystic on the other hand has earned his/her quality of being by getting rid of fear and ego.  For the most part, paranormal experience occurs naturally as one releases fear and ego and spiritually matures, though one can't rule out the possibility that there are some who learn how to achieve paranormal activity in other ways.  However, those that do have far less power than the ones with a loving quality of being.   

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I myself have experienced intense satisfying ecstasy through speaking in tongues, but was later able to doubt the paranormal authenticity of such experiences. But these episodes lacked the long-term impact of another experience (about which I have posted) which was light-years more paranormally powerful and transformative, whose genuineness was later impossible for me to doubt.

Seems like maybe your initial experiences may have changed you in biological ways to create ecstasy, rather than in paranormal ways.  Sounds like you were very dramatically shown the difference between what we can create in terms of ecstasy and what can be given to us. Powerful stuff when expressed through our body!! :-)

Quote:

So PUL can generate great ecstasy, but not all ecstasy is PUL. But is PUL a proper phrase for the best caliber BL experiences? The Christian word for PUL (Greek: "agape") designates a way of being and thus the terms 'pure" and "unconditional" can be measured in comparison with impurities for motivation and conduct and strings attached to our love (implicit conditions). But in NDEs PUL is an experience, not necessarily a way of being. So what impurities and strings attached are the foil for contrasting the experience of NDE PUL? If "pure" and "unconditional" are appropriate terms for NDE love, the presumably other NDErs may experience lower levels of these qualities, depending on the spirit plane reached. So when NDErs encounter a BL and don't comment on an overwhelming loving experience, I'm just suggesting that this difference MAY be spiritually significant. Is the NDEr's perception or spiritual development less advanced? Or is she just experiencing a lower spiritual plane? Or perhaps a quiet peace can be just as authentic manifestation of BL PUL? If we embrace the afterlife principle that like attracts like and the Monroe-Moen identification is hellish planes, does the course of one's NDE already hint at one's ultimate postmortem destination?

PUL has lots of different interpretations based on one's personal experience and their ability to describe their experience adequately.  It is the BL's inner core being that is radiating forth.  It is almost like a tangible substance that can be felt because feeling is fundamental. It doesn't generate the same feeling/sensations in a person as a physical experience would because there is no physical body to sense with. You're a point of consciousness reacting to information being put forth within your own consciousness. Those who describe ecstasy or a quiet peacefulness are likely doing the best they can with what they understand and relate to based on their experience and subjective interpretation/understanding of that experience.  Everyone's unique even though we have shared cultural beliefs.

I've wondered if the principle of like attracts like actually applies to the non-physical.  Truthfully, I'm not sure, but even if it is applicable I seriously doubt if a NDE experience is in anyway telling of one's destination. For one thing, a NDE seems to take place in a reality that receives the newly deceased where we are accommodated according to personal belief and personal comforts in order to help prevent fear from arising. We also are never truly separated from our soul, so what if we at some point simply become integrated back into the fullness of our soul?  That may explain the oneness one feels with a BL some NDErs have expressed. If the BL is our soul, it sure would explain why I crave to be with it. lol  And...  What if hellish planes, etc. are symbolic representatives of fear/ego we're holding onto and not actual realities?  I'm not saying they can't be. Thinking of Storm's experience. To me what he experienced was his own fears coming to life so to speak or what he saw was a metaphor that represented his fear.

Quote:

The classical elements of the NDE (separation from the body, tunnel, BL, encounter with loved ones, arrival at a barrier or limit, past life review are archetypes, and as such, may or may not be experienced on the same spiritual plane. When some NDErs experienced these archetypes in a less intense form or skip over them altogether, it is worth contemplating what this might mean. People tend to make assumptions about such matters when they read about or hear NDE reports. I'm just trying to stimulate reflection on these seldom asked questions.

I'd say the classical elements you mention are beliefs or symbols used to describe experience. Jung would say inherited memory, but I'm not so sure about that. Could be, but I lean more to cultural belief.  If you're having a sensation of being pulled through darkness, a symbol representing a tunnel seems understandable as a way to describe what you're feeling. Arriving at a barrier/limit can foster all kinds of beliefs, but I do think there are no limitations to where we can go once we know how to get there. Or if someone shows us. Someone arriving at a barrier likely doesn't know how to go further into unfamiliar territory.  You can do a life review even while still alive in the physical, not necessarily only after transitioning. Perhaps whether or not one experiences these classical elements are dependent on the individual, their belief, spiritual maturity, etc.

Kathy

   When I was in the Air Force in Japan, I became involved in Buddhism. I meditated a lot and even achieved a partial OOB experience. After I got out in 1981, I continued to meditate a lot while back at my mother's home where I lived until I could afford to move out.

   One day I had a very vivid experience that I will never forget. It wasn't an out of body adventure and I didn't go through any tunnels of light. I just instantly found myself floating in space surrounded by spheres of light. They were slowly spinning around in a huge disc that had a large sphere of light in the center.

   It reminded me of the constellation and the Sun. I had an impression that the Sun was actually God. Perhaps it was the Being Of Light (BL) that you mention of here. The vision lasted several minutes before I found myself waking up and feeling wonderful over the vision I just had. That was the only time that I ever had any experience like that.

Ralph

Kathy and Ralph:

I like the descriptions of what you experienced. Thank you for sharing.

2 books by mental mediums who later became Christians seem relevant here: Raphael Gasson's “The Challenging Counterfeit” and Johanna Michaelson's “The Beautiful Side of Evil.”  Both thought they were performing a useful and loving service by connecting the deceased with their earthly loved ones and thought that their channeling was compatible with Christianity.  Johanna  was working with a Mexican female shaman, Maria, who displayed Christian symbols in her house.  Maria would enter trance and be possessed by Hermanito, her spirit control, who used her hands to perform psychic surgery with a resty hunting knife, with no concession to anesthesia.   Both Raphael and Johanna thought that their eventual conversion to charismatic Christianity was quite compatible with their work in channeling.  But to his surprise, Raphael was viciously attacked by his spirit guide, who repeatedly tried to force him into trance and then use his hands for self-strangulation.  Hermanito's former loving demeanor turned vicious as “he” now radiated hate towards Johanna.  She now was repeatedly knocked down by unseen hands and was assailed by hissing theatening voices.  These attacks left both mediums through prayers for protection offered by their new Christian communities.  Both were now sobered in their reassessive of the ecstasy  they had formerly experienced--Hence, the title of Johanna's book "The Beautiful Side of Evil.' 

Helen Schucman was the psychologist, (a Jewish atheist) who channelRD the voice of Jesus Christ, the alleged source of “A Course in Miracles.”  She and many practioners of ACIM experienced profound love and peace through this course.  Yet Helen would eventually loathe ACIM and her channeling experience; indeed, her channeling led to a depression psychosis that eventually  took her life.  One of her best friends, a Catholic psychologist (Dr. Groeschel) would later say that, unlike the many possession cases that he debunked, Helen's case seemed to be genuine demonic possession.

Why am I sharing these accounts?  Because they illustrate a serious problem in assessing the variety of NDEs: dramatic paranormal spiritual experiences always seem to come with seductive counterfeits.  In ES's view, this danger was so great that he discouraged others from developing astral gifts like his own.  All I'm saying is this: when we evaluate the full spectrum of various NDEs, we need to be alert to counterfeit experiences and the symptoms that might expose these. Feel- good is not always the same as bo-good.  Discussions like this can't prove anything, but I believe that such multi-faceted reflections provide the best hope for developing the spiritual discernment that can detect any counterfeits.   

Don 

Berserk2 wrote on Jan 21^st, 2013 at 8:01pm:

But to his surprise, Raphael was viciously attacked by his spirit guide, who repeatedly tried to force him into trance and then use his hands for self-strangulation.  Hermanito's former loving demeanor turned vicious as “he” now radiated hate towards Johanna.  She now was repeatedly knocked down by unseen hands and was assailed by hissing theatening voices. ...Helen would eventually loathe ACIM and her channeling experience; indeed, her channeling led to a depression psychosis that eventually took her life.  ...Helen's case seemed to be genuine demonic possession.

Yes, exactly.

You will go to Hell!

Contacts with spirits lead to demonic possession.

You will burn forever.

Praise the Lord.

Hallelujha.

Crap.

Because ACIM was brought up again on this board, I went to the site and deliberately studied the lessons for today. They were quite helpful and showed me that my concern means absolutely nothing...and that I can choose to see anyone differently. Completely my choice. So, no reason for a long, drawn out exercise in boredom, or annoyance, no reason at all. In fact, I'm going to skip the whole thing. Life is too short, and my evening full of other thoughts and feelings to enjoy....

Let's bring Assumption #2 into the discussion:

2. The assumption that the NDEr's identification of the BL is always projected on the basis of expectations: In most NDEs, the BL  does not identify itself; rather NDErs project a comfortable identification onto it.  Yet in other cases, Jesus explicitly identifies Himself as the BL to Christians, atheists, and in one case a Muslim.  Yet Muslims never seem to see Muhammad;  rather, they identify the BL as Allah (their word for “God”).  Does the BL often lie or deceive in the name of love so as not to alarm the NDEr with an unknown or disturbing identity?

So some posters imagine the BL is normally radiance from a spirit plane rather than a conscious entity.  What about the last sentence of Assumption #2?  When the BL—or an undetected being hidden with the light—explicity identifies itself as Jesus, especially to unbelievers, how is this revelation to be construed?  Will we be dogmatic and insist that these NDErs are confusing communication from this being with their own projections?  Will we instead claim that some unknown guide is impersonating Jesus to avoid trauma created by contact with an unfamiliar unexpected being?   In other words, is the being lying for some higher purpose?

If a counterfeit spirit is contacting the NDEr, how should we explain the counterfeit PUL initially encountered, but later renounced, by mediums Raphael Gasson and Johanna Michaelson?  How should we react to Helen Schucman's reversal of her high regard for her role as channeler of messages from Jesus Christ and her resulting psychotic break-down? 

Thankfully, this discussion has been intriguing.  Only Pauli's ideas seem to get desperately lonely. 

Don

Don@: " myself have experienced intense satisfying ecstasy through speaking in tongues, but was later able to doubt the paranormal authenticity of such experiences.  But these episodes lacked the long-term impact of another experience (about which I have posted) which was light-years more paranormally powerful and transformative, whose genuineness was later impossible for me to doubt."

Don. Has your personal shit hit the faith fan?

Tim

Thanks for your comments. I guess this sort of experience is more common than we acknowledge.

I worry about the soldiers who have PTSD. That's what they said Ihad but there are "worse" cases than mine. But I think your point about this state being part of the process of awakening is true. I think it applies to the PTSD people experience ..hence the connection to the sublime... but we don't talk about it.

Does the experience have anything in common with kundalini rising experiences? The classical book on that describes a very intense and sometimes debilitationg experience, sort of unique. But if there are degrees of kundalini, then maybe some of this PTSD stuff could be related to that.

Quote:

The assumption that the NDEr's identification of the BL is always projected on the basis of expectations

Pray tell, what perception IS NOT on the basis of expectation?

Perception that we still can not quantify.

Lucy wrote on Jan 22^nd, 2013 at 5:04am:

Tim Thanks for your comments. I guess this sort of experience is more common than we acknowledge. I worry about the soldiers who have PTSD. That's what they said Ihad but there are "worse" cases than mine. But I think your point about this state being part of the process of awakening is true. I think it applies to the PTSD people experience ..hence the connection to the sublime... but we don't talk about it. Does the experience have anything in common with kundalini rising experiences? The classical book on that describes a very intense and sometimes debilitationg experience, sort of unique. But if there are degrees of kundalini, then maybe some of this PTSD stuff could be related to that.

                                                                                                                                                                I realised later that I had invited the experiences through a prayer I use before inner work; "I gather together all the merit from all of my past lives and dedicate it to the great fully awakened state".   It would happen at work, in the waking state. I would dissolve as a separate being. A group of invisibles would appear up in the air, always in the western side of the space. An entire long history of memory would flood me related to them. When the state faded, the memories would be gone too. My body was in panic-mode, energies running wild. I think because what was left of my ego was frantically trying to maintain itself as an separate individual. Meanwhile I'm surrounded by customers & co-workers in the bookstore. It was as-if the non-physical & physical realms were merging. I wonder what would have occurred if I had been able to let go. It was bodily panic that was most difficult. It went on at times for years. It's why I first came to this site years ago, to find an answer to it. I had to find my own answer. I guess because we have to "paddle your own canoe"

Quote:

Why am I sharing these accounts? Because they illustrate a serious problem in assessing the variety of NDEs: dramatic paranormal spiritual experiences always seem to come with seductive counterfeits. In ES's view, this danger was so great that he discouraged others from developing astral gifts like his own. All I'm saying is this: when we evaluate the full spectrum of various NDEs, we need to be alert to counterfeit experiences and the symptoms that might expose these. Feel- good is not always the same as bo-good. Discussions like this can't prove anything, but I believe that such multi-faceted reflections provide the best hope for developing the spiritual discernment that can detect any counterfeits.

Don, you're talking about apples and oranges.  Both can be categorized as fruit, but are not the same thing.  Same with the realms where NDE experience takes place and realms where entities with negative intent hangout.  With both NDE and channeling a person is accessing the non-physical, but the reality/dimension they're accessing is completely different, each with their own rules of interaction. 

An entity with mischievous intent will not be able to cause mischief within a dimension where the purpose is to accommodate the newly deceased.  Even if the mischievous one were to visit a NDE reality/dimension, they would have no power to do naughty things. 

Kathy

Quote:

Does the BL often lie or deceive in the name of love so as not to alarm the NDEr with an unknown or disturbing identity?

Oh, this sounds a bit sinister. :-)  Sure it would be possible, why not?  It would be easy enough for a highly evolved being to know the newly deceased and what their beliefs entail simply by accessing their past history memory that would be stored in a database.  But there's more...

Take for instance Eben Alexander's NDE where he receives verification of his sister.  Couldn't his entire NDE have been orchestrated by a BL for the purpose of giving him exactly what he needed for personal growth as well as verification of the existence of a non-physical reality, of which he previously didn't believe existed?  All the BL or guide if you'd prefer, would need do is access Eben's past history and create the experience as a stream of consciousness/data for Eben to interpret however he chooses. Easy peasy if the BL/guide is any good at its job.

An entire event could be orchestrated including the appearance of Jesus, but I don't think you can rule out the possibility that Jesus does indeed appear to people for whatever reason.  Nor can you rule out the possibility that a person may simply interpret the BL to be Jesus, Allah or whatever.

Kathy 

[Kathy:] An entity with mischievous intent will not be able to cause mischief within a dimension where the purpose is to accommodate the newly deceased.  Even if the mischievous one were to visit a NDE reality.

During his NDE, atheist Howard Storm is lured by entities to follow them because they give him the impression that they have his best interests at heart.  These entities then attack him and rip his spirit body to shreds.  Storm's desperate prayer brings Jeaus to the  rescue.   So deception can be part of an NDE.  As you know, NDEs contain contradictory claims about spiritual truths and NDErs vary greatly in their level of spiritual development and interest..  So why is it a stretch to doubt that NDEs are carte blanche exempt from counterfeiting?  Your reference to the purpose of NDEs begs the question of whether authentic NDEs can be consistently presupposed.  In other words,  the counterfeit possibility challenges the real purpose of specific alleged NDEs.  One the points of my channeling examples is that initial ecstasy that seems like love can later be found illusory. 

Lucy, many atheists who experience NDEs are confronted by "Jesus" in (as?) the BL.  Their typical reaction: "But I don't even believe in you."  Jesus' typical response: "But I do believe in you."  So in such cases, it seems hard to claim that experience always follows expectations.   

Don



K

Don, I think what you're missing here is that numerous realities/dimensions exist.  All with their own rules/laws of interaction. When Storm initially left his body he wasn't in a reality such as the ones we've been discussing with the BL.  He's likely in an OOB reality.  He's extremely fearful and confused.  It is his state of being that created his experience. 

Note that he willingly chose to go with the other beings.  He was free to make a different choice, however, he didn't recognize this because of his state of fear.  It was his fear and confusion that prevented him from moving to a benevolent reality specifically designed to receive the recently deceased.  Instead his fear created either a symbolic hellish reality or he was in a reality where deceptive entities were able to take advantage of him once he made the choice to go with them.  Still, he was given a way out.

Kathy

[Kathy:] Don, I think what you're missing here is that numerous realities/dimensions exist.  All with their own rules/laws of interaction. When Storm initially left his body he wasn't in a reality such as the ones we've been discussing with the BL...He's extremely fearful and confused. 

No, he was angry and confused, but not fearful.  The voices in the doorway reassured him, "We are here to take care of you.  We will fix you up.  Come with us." 
Howard has no reason to doubt them and, with just some hesitation, choses to follow them.  He only becomes afraid when they show their true colors and begin to taunt and attack him.  So you can't say that he creates this experience through fear; it was the other way around. 

[Kathy:] He's likely in an OOB reality. 
I think you beg the question by assuming that his ascent to Jesus should not be classified as OBE reality.  In other words, we have no way of knowing whether other atheists less open to transfornation might experience a deception that includes NDE elements.  The contradictory elements of many NDEs do in fact suggest some deception.  As you know, Paul has OBE type experiences and ascribes the deceptiove ones to an "angel of light." 


K

Quote:

No, he was angry and confused, but not fearful.  The voices in the doorway reassured him, "We are here to take care of you.  We will fix you up.  Come with us."  Howard has no reason to doubt them and, with just some hesitation, choses to follow them.  He only becomes afraid when they show their true colors and begin to taunt and attack him.  So you can't say that he creates this experience through fear; it was the other way around.

Don,

He states on page 12: "I became increasingly upset as anger, fear and confusion filled me."  He even states on page 21 that all of his life he'd fought a constant undertone of anxiety, fear, dread, and angst.

Also look at what he says before that... he thought he must have gone crazy... Somehow split his being into two parts. He says: "I was schizophrenic, completely mad, delusional..."

All this was before he heard the voices. I stand by what I said.  It was his fear and beliefs that gave way to his experience of a hellish reality.

Kathy

Kathy,
Sorry, I didn't have his book handy was following Howard's alternative description on the NDE website.   In his online report, he mentions no fear, only anger and confusion.  Still, I doubt he would have responded to "their" deceptive offer to help, if he suspected they might be dangerous.  In any case, it seems too easy to suggest that his fear created the attack, especially since the details are paralleled in other hellish NDEs. 

Kathy, you acknowledge the reality of deceptive astral spirits; so what makes you think that variations of standard NDE elements are off limits to such deception?   Wouldn't deceptive spirits try to deceive in contexts where the victim is most vulnerable?  In view of the contradictory and missing elements of NDEs, your theory of self-created hellish experiences makes no sense to me. 

Any attractive spiritual experience from the realm of warm fuzzies is a ripe candidate for counterfeiting.  I recently encountered a haunting experience in which a friend's son saw light in his closet.  Clcihes like "PUL", "born again experience," and "speaking in tongues" are all nebulous experiences that invite politically correct claims and mean different things to different people.  My point is not to debunk NDEs; in fact, I deem them the best evidence for an afterlife.  But their underlying reality and power need to be assessed on a case by case basis and their authenticity must never be blindly embraced as dogma.  Ouija board deception can be set up by euphoric paranormal experiences that can be misconstrued as love (Paul's disguised "angel of light" phenomenon). 

My take on the Howard Storm experience was that he was saved by what may be called "divine grace."

He described himself as callous, uncaring, unloving prior to his NDE.  He found himself in a hellish plane, his astral form attacked.  In order to be in that plane, his consciousness found a place most suited to itself when he was out of body.  His love barometer was low, hence like attracted like. 

However, he cried out, and to his interpretation, JC intervened.  Somehow, his soul understood that he was in the wrong place.  From his book:

"This is a guy lying on the ground in the darkness surrounded by what appeared to be dozens if not hundreds and hundreds of vicious creatures who had just torn him up. The situation seemed utterly hopeless, and I seemed beyond any possible help whether I believed in God or not.

The voice again told me to pray to God. It was a dilemma since I didn't know how. The voice told me a third time to pray to God.

I started saying things like, "The Lord is my shepherd, I shall not want ... God bless America" and anything else that seemed to have a religious connotation.

And these people went into a frenzy, as if I had thrown boiling oil all over them. They began yelling and screaming at me, telling me to quit, that there was no God, and no one could hear me. While they screamed and yelled obscenities, they also began backing away from me as if I were poison. As they were retreating, they became more rabid, cursing and screaming that what I was saying was worthless and that I was a coward.

I screamed back at them, "Our Father who art in heaven," and similar ideas. This continued for some time until, suddenly, I was aware that they had left. It was dark, and I was alone yelling things that sounded churchy. It was pleasing to me that these churchy sayings had such an effect on those awful beings.

Lying there for a long time, I was in such a state of hopelessness, and blackness, and despair, that I had no way of measuring how long it was. I was just lying there in an unknown place all torn and ripped. And I had no strength; it was all gone. It seemed as if I were sort of fading out, that any effort on my part would expend the last energy I had. My conscious sense was that I was perishing, or just sinking into the darkness."



Initially, he was by his account in a hellish plane because that is where his consciousness was oriented.  He cried out and "remembered the song Jesus loves me" from Sunday school and was then personally escorted by a BL whom he thought was JC to a heavenly plane.

So how did that happen?  Where did he get his get-out of-hell-free" card?  It seems straight-forward.  He opened up his heart to love and all the so called crap he remembered from childhood.  That opened up a door for his consciousness to realize that there was something more than the selfish mean spirited man who he was before the NDE.  A door opened, and he moved from a hell to a higher plane.


M

Quote:

I doubt he would have responded to "their" deceptive offer to help, if he suspected they might be dangerous.  In any case, it seems too easy to suggest that his fear created the attack, especially since the details are paralleled in other hellish NDEs.  Kathy, you acknowledge the reality of deceptive astral spirits; so what makes you think that variations of standard NDE elements are off limits to such deception?   Wouldn't deceptive spirits try to deceive in contexts where the victim is most vulnerable?  In view of the contradictory and missing elements of NDEs, your theory of self-created hellish experiences makes no sense to me.

Don,

Actually I do think he suspected danger, but in his fearful, confused state he chose to ignore his intuition. In the book he said he was "afraid of those people calling me... they were irritated by my questions...the hallway looked strange... I had a feeling that if I left the room, it might be impossible to get back in... I stepped out into the hall, full of anxiety...

Even if the entities were real beings, they were able to find him because of his fear.  They wouldn't have bothered with him otherwise.  I don't have time today, but let me know if you're really interested and I will outline why I think the hellish experience could have been symbolic.  I'm not saying it was, only that there are signs that it could have been a symbolic representation of his fear.  Remember that even a lucid dream can seem more real than real, so it is possible.

K

Kathy, the encounters with evil spirits experienced by Raphael Gasson ("The Challenging Counterfeit") and Johanna Michaelson ("The Beautiful Side of Evil") involve belief in the goodness of channeling and a lack of fear of deceptive evil spirits.  So even if Howard Storm was more fearful than curious in the misunderstood invitation to follow the beckoning spirits for help, I don't think fear can be postulated as the decisive force that creates the hellish experience.  Years ago, a poster on this site independently recounted  virtually identical astral experience (being torn apart by hostile spirits), and he ment ioned no fear in the lead-up to that horrifying experience.

In any  case, let's now expand our discussion to Assumption #3: The assumption that Paradise (the Park) is generally the same plane (e. g.. Focus 27): Why not instead assume that each BST has a Park, a Reception Area, and Rehabilitation Center?  (a) Some NDEers experience Paradise as containing many colors unknown on earth; others experience no new colors.  (b) Some Christian NDErs experience the flowers and water (including waterfalls) as not only alive, but as producing musical harmonies.  The NDEr can experience these harmonies individually or collectively as one all-encompassing cosmic harmony.  One NDEr insists that these musical harmonies even surpassed reunions with loved ones as ultimately satisfying.  Should these differences be explained as different spirit levels? Or should they be explained as varying levels of spiritual development and perception skills focused on the same plane?  (c) ES learns that even evil people can begin their postmortem journey by exploring the beautiful Park region, before they are drawn down to lower planes through the gradual application of  the principle that like attracts like. 

Don,

One could assume that each BST does have a Park, etc.  Still to me it seems as though that way of thinking is projecting the physical world physics onto the non-physical world where no physical objects exist.  Everyone's experience is defined subjectively by the experiencer.  Flowers, water, musical harmonies are all symbols of the feeling being brought out in the experience of interpreting data received.  It doesn't mean that there is one realm/level here that has a musical waterfall and a different realm/level somewhere else that has a garden of flowers that smell of rich earth.  None of those actually exist unless you or someone else creates them in your mind.  They are representations of information received and interpreted. The non-physical does not even remotely resemble the physical world's physics.  There are no objects, only representations of them, and these metaphors we encounter and interpret is relative to our ELS beliefs because that's all we know.

I'll give an example to try to make what I'm saying clearer.  Since this is posted publicly I don't think Matthew will mind.  A few days after his mother passed I used my intent to try to make contact with his mother for the purpose of trying to help ease Matthew's sorrow. I received information that his mom was fine and got a visual of her sitting on a bench surrounded by potted plants, flowers, etc.  I saw her scoop up soil with her hands and let it run out through her fingers.  I noted she was wearing a blue dress and that there were other beings present that were running multi-colored energy into the locale. I felt as though I were intruding, then I heard words that seemed to be spoken in my head, "Tell him I'm fine."  And then something like "get to" or maybe "go do" "your own business." The scene disappeared and I began my prayer session, which I always do at the beginning of my meditation sessions.

Matthew said this sounded like a hit as his mom was wearing a blue dress and loved potting flowers, etc.

The visual I got was a representation of the information I'd received/accessed from the data stored within consciousness.  Either I or another being or the consciousness system itself created the visual as a means of communication so I could interpret the data.  It doesn't mean that the locale actually existed.  What exists is a realm of consciousness that is conducive to this type of experience. 

Is this Focus 27 or paradise or the park?  I suppose one could label this realm of consciousness as such.  However, someone else could have done the same thing I did and received a completely different visualization, but the meaning still would have likely been interpreted similar to my interpretation.  That mom was fine and adjusting to new surroundings with the help of other spiritual beings.  Mom may or may not have been the woman I saw.  The woman could have been a representation of mom.  Same with the beings.  They could have been a representation of the communication that mom is not alone, she is with those who love her and are tending to her needs.
 
In the non-physical, you don't have a spirit body unless you create one and many do create one out of habit because they're use to experiencing a body. So how is it possible for someone's "spirit body" to be torn?  It is all subjective interpretation that represents something within the person's inner being.  Reread Matthew's above post.  It's what's inside of you that counts.  Have you ever felt "torn" emotionally? Hence, the torn spiritual body could likely be a representation of a person's inner being.  It's been quite awhile since I've read any ES material, but didn't ES talk about this quite a bit?  I think what I'm saying is similar to what he said with the exception that he didn't really understand consciousness as fundamental.

Kathy

Kathy,

The focus of this thread on assumptions means that I'm basically playing Devil's Advocate to question implicit "doctrines" uncritically embraced about the structure of the afterlife and the criterion for distinguishing ADCs from lucid dream consciousnessness and other conscious equivalents.

I'm struck by NDEs that imply a fixed georgraphy for afterlife territories.  For example, Maria has an NDE at age 5 and, at age 50, paints the scene.  Her doctor asks for a copy and posts the copy among 10 other scenic paintings in his office.  A patient sees the painting and exclaims that she too visited that parklike region--not that of the other 10 paintings-- when she had an NDE at age 5.  The 2nd woman's identification of this astral region is based on shared details that are recalled and suggests fixed geographic reference points, despite the so-called mental aspect of astral territories.  Do this shared geographially based identiification imply a well-defned region for deceased young children (5-year-olds)?

ES also speaks of fixed scenery that can be revisited and verified.  He distinguishes the implied map from an earth map by insisting that the time it takes to travel this route to see a specific discarnate spirit depends on the affinities of the explorer with the target spirit.  But the implied geography remains constant! 
NDEs sometimes focus on a very structured arrangement of houses and buildings that suggest permanence, for for most NDEs, it's hard to tell whether the mental realms perceived imply "gengraphical" relationships or not. 

As you know, astral exploration often speaks of a  rehab center, mall-like meeting places, a House of Knowledge, a stadium, waterfalls, rivers, lakes, and planes with distant mountains.  Some OBEs describe realms in which scenery and characters of novels come to life in astrally replicated scenery and character interaction. 

Why not assume that the fixed geographical experiences point to real spirit planes, whereas much of the rest is merely the product of the imagination operating through a lucid dream type consciousness or its waking equivalent?  The alternate asumption that fixed points can't be expected due to the mental nature of these realms seems to make such exploration unfalsifiable, even in principle, and therefore untestable and meaningless.  More research needs to be done on the quest for fixed points and, for that matter, fixed discarnate spirit targets.  If two astral explorers can't even get the same information from independent visits to the same disnarnate spirit, then the reality of NDEs and ADCs is in all honesty called into question.

Don

Terry Gross interviewed Dr. Sam Parnia on "Fresh Air" this morning about his work as a resuscitation doctor and researcher and his new book, "Erasing Death."  I think it will be well worth the read and quite relevant to some of the topics on this forum and this thread.  He is a scientist but based on his research open to the ideas, among others, that our consciousness is not limited to our brain and that we continue to live after physical death.  Very interesting interview.

The shared geography noted in the Parks and other places is interesting, but to my way of thinking is more of a convenience than a set-in-stone place.

On this board, we talk of "belief systems."  Perhaps there are certain agreed upon geographies, that enough people believe in that appear the same to multiple people.  However, just as we talk about freeing ourselves from hindering beliefs, so too might that topography and geography be malleable if our minds are open to it.

It is sort of the same idea as the notion of being the captain of your ship or being tossed around by forces outside of your control.  Once in the afterlife, some may feel they are being judged or have to go to purgatory or a certain place to atone or because it is part of their afterlife experience. 

Yet in different cultures, we hear different stories of afterlife or NDE adventures.  I remember reading about a culture from the far east where the vast majority of people with NDEs reported going before a demon immediately after death to be judged.  None of the common western experiences were noted from these people.  This was the belief system; the expectation.

So maybe, common beliefs hold a form of reality together - maybe that is the basis for physical reality, but also for common afterlife topography or geography where several people report the same experience.  But a deeper understanding of the nature of consciousness could be that we can free ourselves from the restrictions of such geography and create landscapes either alone or together to suit our needs.


M

The testability of afterlife claims is essential to distinguishing hallucinations, lucid dreams, etc. from genuine independent spirit planes.  Why don't we hear more from ADCs, NDEs, and channeling about sequential events in the afterlife?  The relative rarity of such descriptions counts against the authenticity of such parnnormal experiences.  [I say this as a believer in many ADCs and NDEs!]  Can't discarnate spirits be interviewed about such questions?  We often hear about their afterlife residences. Surely the question of relative locations can at least be posed to them in various forms of astral contact. 

In the 1970s, past life readers were studied for  the potential of independent verifications of their past life readings.  A group of subjects visited several past life readers and then compared readings.  They were almost always inconsistent, but the readers explained such discrepancies away as a matter of different lives being read.  However, when asked to read immediate past lives, there was no consistency whatsoever.  This failing informs my skepticism about the inability of astral explorers to independently get the same information or "geography" from the same discarnate spirit. Why is this issue never addressed in partnered explorations of astral territories, especially of specific spirits who should be capable of imparting the same information to different astral explorers? 

Don 

Don, I don't think very many, if any specific "doctrine" about the structure of the non-physical can be embraced for a couple of reasons: One, we are talking about evolving consciousness that is in a state of continuous change, slow as that may or may not be.  Two, the "beingness" of consciousness consists of countless individualized beings (you, me and everyone else) that have any number of probable opportunities open to each at any given moment, and since freedom of choice is intrinsic to us, allowance must be made for each individual's beliefs, inner quality of consciousness, etc.  Otherwise evolutionary growth would not be possible.
 
I wonder, does it really matter where information comes from?  I don't think so as long as the information/experience is helpful to a person's spiritual growth.  Why does it matter if an ADC comes from the discarnate person or a "guide/helper" or from accessing memory held within the consciousness system itself if the contact made is beneficial to the person's spiritual growth?  Why would a beneficial lucid dream experience be less than a beneficial NDE?  It wouldn't since the entire purpose is to evolve consciousness in profitable ways by working with and helping individuals at their own level of understanding.

There are many, many realms of consciousness that exist as both non-physical and physical realities. Both types have their own rules of interaction.  The non-physical has some structure, but not as most people think.  There are no objects!  Only symbolism... metaphors that represent culturally understood objects and ideals.  The ones most of us experience are supportive environments to the ELS.  Physical realities do have objective structure because of the constraints that arise from the laws/rules consigned to them such as time and space, mass and volume, as we know it in the ELS. Other physical worlds have their own physics, some are similar to ELS, others are very different and cannot be understood within our knowledgebase.

There are no non-physical fixed geographical territories except in the mind and memory of consciousness.  They are real and can be visited and revisited and verified because they are representative of a shared cultural belief or as a supportive realm of consciousness.  Essentially, they are metaphors that may be very helpful to us for communication with each other as long as it is realized that they are tools for describing experience.  Otherwise, we can foster yet another belief system that can ensnare us.  We want to progress beyond belief systems to further our spiritual evolution.

Rehab centers, hospitals, libraries, TV screens, computers, malls, houses, buildings, lakes, waterfalls, mountains, rivers, etc. are all within our knowledgebase and are easily understood so they make excellent metaphors for communication, especially when transitioning from a physical environment to a non-physical environment.  It's what we know and perhaps it's the gentlest way to help us acclimate to a new way of life.

Kathy

Here are some quotes from Van Dusen's "The Presence of Other Worlds" which I finally found hidden right in plain sight on my bookshelf.  lol :-) (I paraphrased a bit for the sake of brevity.)


Quote:

Page 81 - 82 "Our first state after death is like our state in this world, since we are then similarly involved in outward concerns.  We have similar faces, voices, and character... This is why it still seems to us as though we were in this world unless we notice things that are out of the ordinary and remember that angels told us we were spirits when we were awakened." Heaven and Hell ~493 The closest analogy would be to the world of dreams, which also seems like the plain, ordinary, real world until one looks closer and pays attention to the differences.  Like dreams, the spirit is now in a world of representations: he is beginning to meet his own nature in the things, people, and setting that surrounds him. Page 85 - 90  The attitude that causes a drift toward heaven is in the feeling that there is a higher power and an effort to relate to it.  This same spirit of humility and respect for the greatness of creation goes with an effort to be with others and to be of some use.  By this, a person faces toward heaven.  ...The one bound for hell serves himself first, last and foremost.  By this attitude, he is cut off from the enlarging possibilities of heaven and becomes enclosed in concerns for himself over and above others. "Essentially, spirits are affections or feelings, the inner or essential aspects of mind that underlie mere thought or memory.  ...Since this is their nature, they are constantly breathing in a desire to know what is true, for the sake of constructive living.  The Lord in fact sees to it that we love the constructive activities that suit our gifts." Heaven and Hell ~517 In many respects, the life of heaven cannot be understood as a simple extension of life in the world.  Much of the character of the spiritual world is more nearly an extension of our inner experience.  There is no time or space as we know it. ES said the ideas of time and space could impede our understanding of heaven.  What corresponds to time is a change of state.  The time of heaven is the always now time of the inner state. Similarly, there is no space in heaven.  What corresponds to distance is the feelings people have for each other.  We also know the experience of being close to some and distant from others, regardless of the actual distances involved:   "People who are nearby are the ones in a similar state and the ones who are far away are in dissimilar states.  It is why space in heaven is nothing but the outward states that correspond to the inner ones. This is also why in the spiritual world an individual is present to another if only that presence is intensely desired.  This is because one person sees another in thought in this way and identifies with that individual's state.  Conversely, one person moves away from another to the extent that there is any sense of reluctance.... Whenever people move from one place to another, whether it is within their town, in their courtyards, in their gardens, or to people outside their own community, they get there more quickly if they are eager to and more slowly if they are not.  The path itself is lengthened or shortened depending on their desire, even though it is the same path.... We can illustrate this by our own thoughts, ...for whatever we focus on intently in our thought is seemingly present...." Heaven and Hell ~193-196 What the spirit experiences is a reflection of inner experiences.  Things in the spiritual world can be seen only by spiritual sight.  What is seen and experienced is representative of the inner states.  Spiritually rich inner states reflect in a surrounding that is gorgeous and rich.  Barren inner states reflect in wretched surroundings.  The spirit experiences what it is."

[ES:] "Whenever people move from one place to another, whether it is within their town, in their courtyards, in their gardens, or to people outside their own community, they get there more quickly if they are eager to and more slowly if they are not.  The path itself is lengthened or shortened depending on their desire, even though it is the same path...."

Terms like "town," "courtyards," "gardens," "outside their community" all imply "geographuical" relationships in ordinary language.  This implication seems true despite the absence of time and space as we know them.  What might it mean to astrally visit someone's "town," and then travel "outside their community" without gengraphical erlationships in some sense? 

Suppose that all ADCs are in fact contacts with the so-called Akashic records or Jung's collective unconscious rather than direct conversations with our deceased loved ones.  In that case, there is no reason to believe that our loved ones are even aware of our contact; so such contacts would be impersonal and less satisfying.  But if that were the true state of affairs, then my desired quest to learn of discarnate lifestyles and sequences of events would be futile.  But I would also wonder, in that case, if there is any evidence at all for postmortem survival of self-conscious spirits, since such ADCs might be attributable to nonsurving spirits who lose their self-consciousness to the One--the undifferentiated cosmic pool of consciousness.

Don

Don. In all your intellectual reply posts, over the many years that I have been reading, lurking, posting here. You have been hell bent on answers from the various members of the so called "New Age Ghetto". Your denial of Christians, and Christian nations  slaughtering each other since the Romans took over Christianity in 300+AD is appalling! World War One and Two were nothing but Christian Nations slaughtering each other!(except Japan)..But let's go back 1500 years until today. European Christian Nations were warring against each other in Europe and elsewhere!? Tens of Millions killed in the name of Christ from both sides. The Protestant and Catholic wars that still exist today!...Tell me? How many innocent people has the "New Age Ghetto" killed in past history? Harvey.                  


Berserk2 wrote on Feb 22^nd, 2013 at 7:31pm:

[ES:] "Whenever people move from one place to another, whether it is within their town, in their courtyards, in their gardens, or to people outside their own community, they get there more quickly if they are eager to and more slowly if they are not.  The path itself is lengthened or shortened depending on their desire, even though it is the same path...." Terms like "town," "courtyards," "gardens," "outside their community" all imply "geographuical" relationships in ordinary language.  This implication seems true despite the absence of time and space as we know them.  What might it mean to astrally visit someone's "town," and then travel "outside their community" without gengraphical erlationships in some sense?  Suppose that all ADCs are in fact contacts with the so-called Akashic records or Jung's collective unconscious rather than direct conversations with our deceased loved ones.  In that case, there is no reason to believe that our loved ones are even aware of our contact; so such contacts would be impersonal and less satisfying.  But if that were the true state of affairs, then my desired quest to learn of discarnate lifestyles and sequences of events would be futile.  But I would also wonder, in that case, if there is any evidence at all for postmortem survival of self-conscious spirits, since such ADCs might be attributable to nonsurving spirits who lose their self-consciousness to the One--the undifferentiated cosmic pool of consciousness. Don

Harvey [alias Carl],

Yuo used to sign your posts, "Carl and family."  Was that because you needed your family's help in composing them?  Have you been neglecting your medications lately?  If you are incapable of contributing original thoughts to the site's discussions, then please at least try to follow a train  of thought.  I have never denied or even discussed the history of Catholic violence on this site because I'm not Catholic and it is irrrelevant to the purpose of this site.  Besides, as a famous preacher apty noted, "Being in a church don't [sic!] make you a Christian any more than being in a garage makes you a car." 

Don,

A discarnate being "living in" a "town" with other beings may or may not have the understanding the "town" is a construct of consciousness and/or the individuals that inhabit it.  It appears just as real as a physical reality, but there are differences. The "path" is followed by intent and focusing awareness. In the non-physical we don't really travel anywhere since there's no space.  We change our focus of awareness. ES says we change our "state", but I think he means the same thing as what we think of as awareness.

Intent is what "moves" consciousness.  With focused intent it can be just as easy to accomplish as connecting to the Internet and clicking on a link to go to a web page.  Nevertheless, there are still rules of interaction within these realms of consciousness and inhabitants of the realm are subject to those rules, just as we are subject to those of the ELS.  However, non-physical laws are much less constrained than a physical world.

First of all, I don't think all ADCs are from sources other than the discarnate person, but some of them likely are as in my experience with Matthew's mom.  But they could be either the discarnate person, a guide/helper or contact with memory held within consciousness.  So perhaps, there is more discernment needed when gathering evidence.  I think it is quite possible that our deceased loved ones may not be aware of contact in some cases, but only a needy ego would judge this as impersonal and less satisfying.  Understanding how things are leads to acceptance.  Learning to live with uncertainty is part of the growth process.

Perhaps the best evidence for postmortem survival will eventually come from science.  Especially as consciousness and resulting implications become better understood.  The larger consciousness system and all of its realms/realities are widely populated with individual beings, just as ELS is.  It's not an undifferentiated cosmic pool of consciousness.  It is extremely organized and efficient... it's magnificence is wonderfully incredible and really cannot be known except for the most part in very minuscule ways.

Kathy

Discussions of a timeless afterlife often seem to confuse no-time with a different experience of time and its passing.  Even dreams that seem to last a long time can correspond with a REM state that lasts only seconds.  NDEs often seem to last for hours, when in fact they last only minutes.  ES's reference to "change of states" presumes sequence of states and hence an experience of time.  ES and other astral adepts converse with discarnate spirits in a sequence of thought flow (sometimes rotes), which implies an experience of time.  Discarnate souls have the ability to think logically and logic requires deductions, which in turn require a sequence of explicit or implicit premises from which inferences are drawn--and that process necessarily implies  time.  Then there is the journey or progress motif with respect to the afterlife.  For example, communication with discarnates is almost impossible after a year.  The concept of journey or progress implies sequence over some sense of time.  Perhaps we should speak of relative or varying time flows rather than timelessness vs. time. 

Still, I have a deeper concern: mystics who claim a  simultaneous experience of past, present, and  future as a static totally cannot express themselves in a logically coherent way that implies no sequence.  The timeless model of the afterlife is an untestable and therefore meaningless model.  Almost all contacts with discarnates imply sequential events and communication and therefore some concept of time.

Discussions of astral insight seem invariably permeated with unsubstantiated doctrines, conscious or unconscious.  For example, what is the criterion for determining whether an experience of a Park is real or merely imagined or dreamed or whether the Park, if "real," is part of BST or Focus 27? 

Some NDEers experience Paradise as brighter than the sun without hurting the astral eyes. They experience water droplets as fully alive.  Others experience it as containing many colors unknown on earth; others experience no new colors.  Some Christian NDErs experience the flowers and water (including waterfalls) as not only alive, but as producing musical harmonies.  The NDEr can experience these harmonies individually or collectively as one all-encompassing cosmic harmony.  One NDEr insists that these musical harmonies even surpassed reunions with loved ones as ultimately satisfying. 

To me, such sensory differences seem a far superior gauge of experiencing a different spirit plane than the Monroe-Moen focus level model.  Premature reduction of astral experiences to untestable doctrines is a major reason for lack of progress in such research.  It is not permissible to cite timelessness or the absence of space as a grounds for evading the question: "Why can't different astral explorers independently confirm the geographic layouts of astral towns or regions." A few, of course, do pass this test.  But why not more?  First, one must answer the quesition, "Why can't different astral explorers routinely independently glean the same information from the same discarnate spirit to prove contact with that spirit?  Until this 2nd question is addressed, knowledge claims about the nature of astral planes can be justifiably challenged.

Don

Don-

'For example, communication with discarnates is almost impossible after a year'.

That sounds rather a bold statement - is it backed up by evidence ? I have heard of many accounts of apparent discarnate contact through mediums, from people long since dead. Of course alternative explanations could be suggested such as 'super-psi' but such explanations seems stretched when the living person hasn't thought about the discarnate in years and they are expecting much more recently deceased contact. It doesn't seem so cut and dried as you suggest ...

I don't have any evidence about time frames after which it's no longer possible to contact someone in the afterlife, but I'll repeat what Laurie Monroe told me when she and I both attended Bruce's northern VA workshop several years ago.

Specifically, she said that it wasn't possible to contact her dad any longer, that too much time had already passed since his death.

Sadly she herself has passed on.  But it does seem that there might be such a barrier.  Whether it's a year or ten, I don't know. 

Maybe Bruce can weigh in regarding this question.

R

A study on ADCs in the 1970s found that 50% of Americans and 48% of Brits expeirenced paranormal contact with their deceased loved ones within the first year of their passing.  After a year, such contacts were found to be exrremely rare.  Also, when church people share their waking visions and other paranormal contacts with me, their deceased loved one often warns that continued contact will soon be impossible-and these warnings seem to come after about a year.  Of course, channeling experiences no such problem, but then, as you know, I consider most channeling bogus--and not just because of the Gordon Davis case, which I still find compelling, despite questions about Sam Soul. 

Astral adepts don't seem to be able to track down ancient biblical figures like Moses, Peter, or Paul.  Nor do they have walking visions of these saints.  On the other hand, ES claims to have had long discussions with the philosopher Aristotle and the long-dead Protestant reformers, Martin Luther and John Calvin.
Was ES duped by spirit impersonators?  Or is his gift in a class by itself, unparalleled by any modern adepts?  I do wish a new and modern Swedenborg would emerge to be tested and questioned on such matters.

Don

Don-

Yes a modern ES would indeed be terrific!

It might change my own tepid belief in the afterlife.  After all these years, I'm still around a 3 on a scale where 10 would represent an absolute conviction of life after death.

Who knows, maybe some day we'll get the kind of conclusive evidence that so far has been excellent in eluding us.

Or maybe we won't.

R

Don-

I think there are more than questions about Sam Soal - he had previous for fraud and his story didn't stack up ! It is certainly your perogative to consider most channelling bogus but I would say many people who have spent years studying the phenomenon wouldn't agree with you including  David Fontana (who you have recommended as writing one of the best books on afterlife evidence -Is There an Afterlife?:  ).

Even if we discount mediumship ; how about deathbed/crisis visions ? I have personally come across a number of examples from friends and relatives who I have no reason to doubt were reporting what they saw i.e communication with a long dead relative. It does seem true that most ADCs happen within a year of passing but that would seem logical given a) that is when grief is at its sharpest and hence comfort most needed b) continued contact could be an impediment to the bereaved getting on with their earthly life.

Don and others -
  I have wondered about the issue of time in the afterlife also.  I may have read this idea decades ago (from C.S. Lewis I believe), but to me it seems to make sense.
  Imagine an author/reader of a book.  He sits down and writes, and reads his work at his leisure.  He can get up, go do what he needs to do and life moves on sequentially for him.  He has a time, necessarily, because it makes sense for him to have a logical sequence of events.  But he can see the totality of the  experience of the characters in his books - he can flip forward, back, and their whole story is before him.  His time has at least one more dimension to it that theirs does not.
  Now imagine what the experience is like for the characters in his book.  They simply experience time as a logical sequence of events.  From their perspective, the author/reader is outside of their time; he is eternal in a way they are not.
  The difference between the linear time of the characters in the book and time as experienced by the author/reader is maybe analogous to a single dimension versus two or three dimensions of time.   All of the time of the characters in the book can be accessed at any time by the author/reader.  The author/reader can represent God/BofL/Higher Consciousness/Self Disk or whatever... the point is that you can have higher dimensions of time, and lower dimensions of time can be wrapped up in it.  I suppose when someone dies or enters eternity, they are no longer in the linear time of the characters of the book, and enter the time of the author/reader; they transition to a higher dimension of reality.

The appearance of long-dead relatives at the climax of many NDEs does create an apparent exception to the rule established by ADCs.  Let me make 4 observations based on the fact that we are exploring our assumptions here: (1) Perhaps, a distinction must be drawn between the ease of contacts when one is incarnate and the ease of contact when one is clinically dead and has in an important sense left one's body.  (2) Alternately, the role of apparent archetypes during NDEs may suggest that the long-dead relatives are not really present; rather thought forms replicating them create this illusion.  In favor of the latter is the lack of information provided by these relative about their postmortem life and their lack of verification about their identity.  One must keep in mind Robert Bruce's discovery that "staff" encountered in Rehab or Hospitial settings during OBEs appear to ne mere thought forms.  (3) ES's discovery that the earth memory of discarnates eventually becomes dormant supports research that ADC contacts are generally rare after a year of the loved one's passing.  But ES adds that, at the Lord's discretion, earth memory can temporarily be restored for certain purposes, and NDE reunions might be one such purpose.  (4) What we must not do is create a host of implicit New Age doctrines by blending insights from ADCs with excellent paranormal verifications with insghts from sentimentally compelling experiences with no obvious evidential value.  Few NDEs match the case of a discarnate Tami who psychically imprints her signature with a smily face on a mini-mart dollar bill received by her uncle and then announces in a vision the termination of her appearances to her mother because, after about a year, she must move on.  I know the principles involved in this case personally. 

No one has responded to my challenge: why can't astral adepts independently contact the same discarnate spirit or guide and ask the  guide to independently import the same information to each astral explorer?  Until this question is answered, I reject all rationalizations of astral explorers for their failure to establish astral geographical astral  common ground--a failure they presume to explain away by simply claiming claiming all is mental in the afterlife.

Don

pratekya wrote on Mar 1^st, 2013 at 2:40pm:

Don and others -   I have wondered about the issue of time in the afterlife also.  I may have read this idea decades ago (from C.S. Lewis I believe), but to me it seems to make sense.   Imagine an author/reader of a book.  He sits down and writes, and reads his work at his leisure.  He can get up, go do what he needs to do and life moves on sequentially for him.  He has a time, necessarily, because it makes sense for him to have a logical sequence of events.  But he can see the totality of the  experience of the characters in his books - he can flip forward, back, and their whole story is before him.  His time has at least one more dimension to it that theirs does not.   Now imagine what the experience is like for the characters in his book.  They simply experience time as a logical sequence of events.  From their perspective, the author/reader is outside of their time; he is eternal in a way they are not.   The difference between the linear time of the characters in the book and time as experienced by the author/reader is maybe analogous to a single dimension versus two or three dimensions of time.   All of the time of the characters in the book can be accessed at any time by the author/reader.  The author/reader can represent God/BofL/Higher Consciousness/Self Disk or whatever... the point is that you can have higher dimensions of time, and lower dimensions of time can be wrapped up in it.  I suppose when someone dies or enters eternity, they are no longer in the linear time of the characters of the book, and enter the time of the author/reader; they transition to a higher dimension of reality.

I think you are on to something.. Higher dimensional concepts such as 'all time' are almost impossible to grasp from a lower-dimensional perspective. Like  fictional 2D flatlanders trying to understand the concept of 'upnesss' in a 3D higher reality; we will always struggle when we try to imprint a low dimensional perspective on a higher order meta-reality.

pratekya,

Your excellent example makes my point in a different way: different experiences of time.  The reader can put down the book and enter his own physical level of time that the novel characters, if self-conscious, cannot experience. But The reader's sequence of experience parallels that of the these characters, while he is reading the novel, whether he is following the novel's sequence precisely or he skips to page 180 and reads the sequence there.  Sequence still implies an experience of time, even if either time in the future is experienced or the rate of time's passage varies.  So many (not all) experiences of astral realms should be geographically identifiable by other explorer--and I have given examples of just such cases, but I only wonder why there are not many more.

ES was able to target specific araas or recently dead people at will and bring back information no one on earth had.  Even alleged timelessness is no excuse for the failure of the decisive test: Astral explorers A, B, and C sequentially target spirit D either simultaneously or sequentially. If simultaneously, there later recall of who did and said what should overlap significantly and not be contradictory; if sequentially,  then D wshould, if requested, be able to share the same thoughts with A, then B, then C.  And discnarnate spirits should be able to narrate sequences of events, even if those events transpire in a different dimension of time. 

Don

Don: Even alleged timelessness is no excuse for the failure of the decisive test: Astral explorers A, B, and C sequentially target spirit D either simultaneously or sequentially. If simultaneously, there later recall of who did and said what should overlap significantly and not be contradictory; if sequentially,  then D wshould, if requested, be able to share the same thoughts with A, then B, then C.  And discnarnate spirits should be able to narrate sequences of events, even if those events transpire in a different dimension of time. 


"Do you believe that my being stronger or faster has anything to do with my muscles in this place? Do you think that's air you're breathing now?" - Morphues (The Matrix)

For me, the problem is in analyzing a concept such as time, mind and consciousness using earthly objective standards, when mind is clearly outside of earthly laws.  First, Don I would like to address your challenge to astral adepts on performing objective visits to the same person or place.  I do think that is a valid experiment in objective terms.  However, you must start with a broader question, namely, is astral travel an objective reality or a means to an end?  ie. - do we leave the body with a silver cord and explore an objective realm?  Many have had this experience so it may be real. It may also be, that the astral body is another false construct of the mind or vehicle created by those seeking to travel, who are not quite ready for the big picture so that their belief system requires a new "body" to explore(this may be like a lucid dream), and that mind/thought is the only reality.  As such, I have always felt the concept of astral travel, though wonderful is deeply flawed.  And the notion that we have a set number of objective energy bodies/astral bodies, etc. is an artificial construct, one that takes us from a false physical body, to a false astral one as an objective.

If conciousness is primary and all else secondary, then there may or may not be objective astral realms to verify via visitation.  Or your experience of focus 27 - seeing new colors, may be different in the same area as mine - hearing new music -  since our minds take a different "spin" on the same geography.  Admittedly, if there is a primacy of consciousness, then people of a similar mind may create landmarks or topography that would be experienced by all who go there. I just don't know. 

I do agree with you that the sense of timelessness should not imply a simultaneous of all times at once.  ES noted that there was no time per se, and that spirits had difficulty understanding how we marked days and minutes on sunrise, movement of planets/orbits, etc.  But they did agree that they recognized a change in state, from one state of being to another.  I believe that this timelessness is not necessarily true timelessness, but thought moving so fast that much more is possible in an expanded or compressed mode of thinking.  For instance "thought balls" mentioned by some explorers like Bruce, in which vast amounts of information are exchanged with a discarnate spirit would, I believe give a sense of disorientation or compression if this information were downloaded instantaneously on meeting another person. 

If mind is primary, then belief systems act as filters for perception.  If that is so, then if you and I set off to retrieve data on the same person or place, we may have trouble communicating because of differing belief systems and interpreters in our minds.  If we both try to visit a house in Focus 27, and we fail, then can we say that the house is not there?  Is there an objective house there, or is it a fluid pseudo-house which is seen differently or experienced differently depending on our perceptions and our filters?

Physical reality gives us a false sense of objectivity about things.  But taking something simple, such as color perception, how do you, Don know that when we both look at the color "red" we are seeing the same image in our mind?  Maybe my red looks like your green to me.  We can both identify red again and again.  We agree on descriptive terms about it it.  We can describe the wavelength in physical terms.  Yet, the true "knowing" of the color is based on my filters and experience in my mind.  It is a false sense of objectivity to believe that the experience of "mind" or consciousness is the same and reproducible for each person.

M

P.S. - Pratekaya,

Your description of timelessness as being the author of a book who can go back and forth and experience different parts of the book is brilliant, and on a gut level I believe has validity when applied to how explorers describe the afterlife as timeless.  And I think your and Don's points are well taken that it is isn't true simultaneous time - i.e. every form of time existing at once, but more an ability to jump forward or backward in the novel at will and experience a progression or sequence in whatever way suits you.

M

But in a wider sense its not just about verifying astral encounters. Its an issue which affects all that which comes under the umbrella of the 'paranormal'. To anyone who takes the time and trouble to do the research it has been proven beyond reasonable doubt that psi exists, random number generators can be affected by thoughts, some mediums can obtain unknown information  under lab controlled conditions, remote viewers can obtain information etc etc.. all way beyond the chance levels which would be accepted in any other scientific field. But (and its a big but) with a few notable exceptions, it doesn't seem to happen 'to order' . This is why hard core sceptics can say that they demand proof now and unless its totally unambiguous it doesn't count and remain sceptics. Such people crop up on this board from time to time with a 'go on, impress me or its total rubbish' attitude. But the truth is that, to use Pratekya's analogy, as characters in a novel we can only guess at an author's perspective. The response to this, I would suggest, is to be humble about what we don't know and not retreat into the comfort of dogmatism.

Pratekya,

Let me deviate a bit from the current subject and make an observation from St. Paul: "Those whom God foreknew He also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of His Son (Romans 8:29)."  What makes this verse intriguing is its reversal of what we might expect: i. e. "Those whom God predestined He also foreknew..."  In other words, foreknowledge logically precedes predestination and not vice versa, as we might expect.  Expressed differently, from God's timeless perspective, God perceives past, present, and future in one eternal Now as if they were a great unfolded scroll of events that time-bound percipients might experience sequentially.  God does not predestine anyone in a sense that deprives them of free volition.  Rather, God foreknows all my decisions, both my flawed and my wise choices, and fits them into God's plan.  If God perceived some x factor in my mind that allowed Him to infallibly predict my decisions, that x factor would deprive me of free will.  So no such x factor exists, only God's transtemporal perspective. 
God might foresee the iinevitability of my future poor choices because of my emotional  and physical state at the [future] time and create roadblocks to prevent me from making such poor choices.  This possibility allows for some sort of divine guidance for those who seek it and meet whatever God's conditions are for such guidance.

So a useful analogy of how this might work is practice is a chess game between a grandmaster and a novice.  The novice is free to make any moves he chooses, but his limited knowledge of tactics and the Big Picture ensures that the grandmaster can control the game, if not his green opponent's precise moves.  Thus, the grandmaster's plan can in that sense be fulfilled without depriving the novice of his ability to move freely.  Of  course, as the game progresses, the novice's freedom can be increasingly restricted because the grandmaster can make a series of moves designed to severely limit the novice's options.
 
Don

Don, I don't see this as a deviation from the subject at hand at all.  btw... excellent post!!


Quote:

Of course, as the game progresses, the novice's freedom can be increasingly restricted because the grandmaster can make a series of moves designed to severely limit the novice's options.

Couldn't a "series of moves" be the creation of virtual worlds/realities with various laws/rules of interaction with the environment as a form of limitation for the purpose of evolving one's spiritual growth?  And of course we are never left alone... help is always available.

Kathy

  Thank you for the kind responses.  I appreciate it a lot because I've read what a lot of you have written over the years and come to respect a lot of you very much.
  I can't necessarily claim ownership of the idea of time as being multi dimensional; I believe it originated with C.S. Lewis but don't have time to check and find it at the moment.
  I appreciate what Don is doing here, and I am also interested in objective testing/validation/verification/advancement of the art of retrievals and afterlife communication.  In fact, I think the fact that I couldn't resolve the objective reality issue myself led me to have problems trying to practice Bruce's method.  What do I mean?
  I had read Bruce's books, and tried the method in the workbook.  I got to the point where I was supposed to let my mind exist in 3D darkness, and then eventually some image or something would start to grab the attention of my bored mind.  And I saw nothing.  Now I had my doubts as well, because I had hypnotized friends of mine years ago, and have a healthy respect for the power of suggestion.  So my doubts included things like 'if I expect to sense something in the 3D darkness hard enough, can I will myself to see something?  How will I know if what I am seeing is not a product of my hopeful imagination?'  I think Bruce would say that we look for inherent validation in the experiences themselves, but they are not validating necessarily to other people.  Like for instance a name and other information from a deceased person that can be validated later, that an explorer had no prior knowledge of, would build the explorer's own inherent faith in afterlife communication and his/her abilities.  But this experience wouldn't necessarily work for a different individual (it would be an appeal to authority, and would depend on the people involved).  Personally I couldn't resolve the objectivity/subjectivity problem, and I think it stopped my progress as a hopeful explorer.
  To proceed with Don (and Bruce's ideas) we need multiple successful explorers to test out some these ideas objectively, that can try to do some exploration and report back in some way that can be cross checked for accuracy before they have communicated between themselves through the internet or whatever.  I don't know how one could do that on multiple levels; I'm not sure it's logistically possible.  Don seems to be trying to advance afterlife exploration as a science (which is a worthy goal), while I think Bruce would acknowledge there is an inherent subjectivity to pretty much all of these experiences that cannot be overcome.  I think I'm in Bruce's camp on this one but would be happily proven wrong.  If we could make this more objective, and if Don is right, then tremendous advancement of our knowledge is ahead of us.  Sort of like mapping out a new universe.  All in all however, Don (and others) bring up fantastic points, questions and issues to consider.

Kathy,

I've been swamped with people's heatlh issues, child custody and substance abuse battles, sermon and bulletin preparation, etc.  But I have not yet answered your last question,  because, duh, well you ask hard complicated questions!  This last question presumes many underlying issues, which I need to incubate on for a long time and then give it my best shot.

But let me make the case for a starting point.  The books on OBEs (phasing) and ADCs that are typically read by posters on this site are skewed towards a New Age perspective.  By contrast, conservative Christians read OBE and NDE accounts from like-minded Christians and these accounts tend to confirm their theological perspective and predictably to contradict the afterlife accounts popular with New Agers.  Some of these accounts from both camps are delusional; others may well be fabrications to gain game or wealth.  But implcit in all of this are implicit or explcist doctrinal systems thtat gain approval for the particular audience attracted.   Thus Bob Monroe, followed by Bruce Moen, have their proverbial "knowns," soul disks, hollow heavens or BSTs, Fovus 27 with its attendant doctrinally-based characterizations, etc.  Seekers in both camps tend to dismiss cases from the opposing camp as fron liars or delusional loons. 

What gets lost in the lack of interaction between such camps is the fact that most of these explorers are not lying and that the judgment of delusion merely reflects biased discomfort with conflicting models.  The training lessons that might be implcit in your (Kathy's) question might partly point the way to a meaningful starting point for reconciling contradictions.

I suggest that you or anyone interested check out Kat Kerr's trilogy of books (1 still unpublished) entitled "Revealing Heaven."  Likr Eben Alexander, she is all over Youtube.  Her books are based on apparent spontaeous OBEs or phasing.  Her heaven seems analogously "geographic" with abundant potentially falsifiable information.  She even speaks of a reality theatre where people can act out earthly movies with heaven's equivalent of computer-generated holograms of settings and characters.  Other conservative Chrstian trips to heaven are breath-taking in their vision and claims, even though they might ultimately be delusional.  But if these counter-visions are often ultimately the delusional products of imaginations run wild with wishful thinking,  why make a different judgment about our "gurus;" e. g. Bruce Moen, Bob Monroe, Robert Bruce, Swedenborg?  We need massive flow charts that identify how astral explorers with often conflicting visions and beliefs deal with the many common motifs that are repeatedly addressed in these diverse reports.  That way, we might be able to begin to sort out the true from the false on the basis of logic rather than intuitive bias and preconditioning. But we also need to consider the depressing thought that, if we can't come up with a satisfactory explanation for the contradictions, then none of these paranormal experiences may be evidential for an afterlife.  The voyage to true knowledge leads through a comprehensive journey  through the valley of doubt.

Don

[Kathy:] Couldn't a "series of moves" be the creation of virtual worlds/realities with various laws/rules of interaction with the environment as a form of limitation for the purpose of evolving one's spiritual growth?  And of course we are never left alone... help is always available.

Kathy, that possibility may be embedded in the implciit biblical model that presupposes the principle that  none of us ultimately make it unless we all make it--that your success is my success and your failure is my failure.  On this model, progress in PUL results from progress in creative service.  Perhaps the discarnate caregivers are trained in the design of vitual realities, whose limitations promote such progress by curricula based on theme-based virtual system settings. 

In that case, the principle of like attracts like may be only one of many principles that drive the shape of these virtual realities.  Perhaps, then, we should give up the concept of Focus 24-26 as BSTs, not because it is false, but because this label is too oversimplified. 

A thief's hell consisting of thieves might serve as a mirror of one's core desires, so that the misery caused by robbery schemes boomerangs enough be experienced as a window into one's own rapacious soul.  But one is never just a thief; rather that character flaw is normally part of a complex of flawed core desires and aptitudes.  So virtual worlds might need to be morally multi-faced in their construction to serve as teaching tools for complexes of core desires, rather than for a just one obvious flaw. 

Perhaps the principle of like attracts like prompts an astral explorer who has just encountered a dead thief to then encounter other thieves to sustain the explorer's current focus of thought.  In this way, the illusion of just a thief's hell might be created, when in face the moral and spiritual issues addressed in that virtual reality might be far more multi-faceted.   

But, Kathy, if your suggestion is correct, surely astral explorers should be discovering planes in which such an adapted learning curve is more obvious. Then again, perhaps that is precisely what George Ritchie was exposed to during his prolonged NDE.  He witnessss hellish planes over which benign beings (helpers?) hover.  He also visits a plane "below haaven" which strikes him as the astral equivalent of a university with all sorts of exotic labs and subjects under study. 

Don

Glad to see I'm challenging you, Don! lol  ::)  It's usually the other way around!

For the moment let's assume God, as the ground of all being bubbled up a substance of himself or what I'll just call "potential" that was the beginning of the creation of an evolving (CS) Consciousness System.  As the CS evolved it in turn bubbled up individualized consciousnesses (souls) and eventually virtual playgrounds (ELS and similar geographical realities) for the souls to learn, grow and spiritually evolve at a faster pace "knowing good and evil" or dualism. 

In order for souls to participate in the numerous, divergent as well as evolving playgrounds/virtual worlds (both physical and nonphysical) these individualized souls bubble up spirits (us) as individualized consciousnesses, which is the same quality as that of the spirit's soul.  The evolving CS through experience gained in various worlds/realities learned love (for lack of a better word) was the most profitable way to change its being or the substance of which it is. PUL is what the soul via the spirit is learning in order to evolve profitably.

So here we have an innumerable number of souls connected to an Internet of sorts playing in a multiplayer game called ELS.  ELS is hugely diverse not only because of its evolving environments, but also because of the evolving souls via an incarnated spirit contributing to the quality or lack thereof to the ELS environment.  Quality in a virtual world such as ELS and its supporting nonphysical realms is expressed in the extremes of fear and love.  This would likely be true of any other physical virtual world/learning lab within the CS.

There are numerous implications to this scenario such as predestination and many more I'll leave unspoken for now.  Since ELS is so diverse we can imagine other physical realities similar to ELS as diverse as well.  Say for example an astral adept from another world similar to ELS would visit ELS and see a riot in Egypt.  Might that be interpreted as a hell?  Or say one sees a beautiful meadow with a waterfall in the Rocky mountains.  Couldn't that be interpreted as a heaven?  Or perhaps one might pop into the Hall of Congress or one of the numerous libraries, hospitals, etc.  Just as other realities appear non-physical to us, our reality (ELS) would appear non-physical to someone from a different physical world.

Then there seems to be supportive realities that are non-physical.  It is these that I think most astral explorers and NDE'ers participate in.  They are one's that are conducive to experiences that relate to their inner self as well as what higher consciousness, the soul or guidance considers valuable to the spirit's understanding and learning experience in relation to their life experience in the ELS and as you mentioned illusory in nature because they're used as a teaching aid or tool. There also wouldn't necessarily be an obvious learning curve unless the realm itself was stable.  Instead it seems more likely to be supplementary learning experience that's specific to an individual or perhaps groups of individuals.

I'll stop here for now.  Even if the experiences of astral explorers could be placed on a huge spreadsheet how would it possible for most of the experiences to be correlated into geographical areas?  That just seems like an overwhelming task that wouldn't really produce accurate results since all interpretation is subjective.  In any case, it seems much more likely that scientific theory is what can eventually offer the evidence for the existence of an afterlife.  Many theorists are coming forward with an attempt to bring ancient religious theology and scientific theory together.  And it likely would be the science that contributes the most evidence to populations throughout the world. 

Thoughts?

Kathy

8. The assumption that most of the newly dead do not try to contact their earthly loved ones in a convincing way that reassures them:  Most of us would want to provide such reassurance; yet truly compelling ADCs are erlatively rare.  Still, some dead spirits confirm their survival in truly spectacular fashion.  Why is their method or skill not routinely taught by astral guides in the name of love?  Do the new discarnates find it undesirable or impossible to perform ADCs?  Or does this prospect seldom even occur to them in the confusion and trauma of their newly discarnate condition? 

My sermon title on Easter Sunday was "The Risen Lord's Hands and Feet."   One of my points was this: In His early resurrection appearances, Jesus' voice and facial appearance were not sufficient to convince some disciples that they were seeing more than a ghost.  In those days, ghosts were not considered foolproof demonstrations of a spirit's authenticity.  Instead, what persuaded the skeptics were Jesus' hands and feet, especially their wounds.  Jesus' use of touched further persuaded His followers that His seeming "physicality" was far more than what would be expected of a ghost.  For example, the Risen Jesus invites physical contact and both cooks breakfast and eats fish in their presence.   

After my Easter sermon,  Tim told me I was preaching directly at him.  Why?  Because when Tim (a Marine) was on a mission in Afghanistan, he had a dream of his deceased grandmother.  After a reassuring conversation, she startled Tim with this claim: "Well, Tim, when you wake up, you'll probably dismiss our little encoutner as just a dream.  So I'll just have to do something you won't like to persuade you that I really am your Grandma!"   With that, she reached out and pinched Tim hard on his cheek.  Tim awoke at once and felt considerable lasting pain from the pinch.  To me, this is just another indication about the various verification possibilities of ADCs. 

Readers of Robert A. Monroe's "Journeys Out of the Body"  will recall a somewhat analogous pinch by RAM of an unsuspecting female friend.  RAM later told her that he was the pincher, and she exclaimed, "Oh, was that you?"  But RAM's pinch can be explained away in terms of mistaking pricking sensations that we experience from time to time with a particular act performed by a familar discarnate individual.  Still, I'm more inclined to credit RAM's story, now that I've heard about Tim's pinching experience. 

Don

Kathy,

I recall one TMI devotee who posted several years ago that astral experience is only radically subjective in the belief system territories, but not in Focus 27 or "the Park, where geographical objectivity significantly defines interactions!  In any case, in  "The Case for Heaven," examples are given of geographically consistent park regions devoted to 5-year-olds with NDEs.  Thus, one woman recognizes a painting made of an astral locale for 5-year-olds by a woman who had an NDE at age 5.  The 2nd woman identified this painting as a site which she visited in an NDE also at age 5!  Also, Swedenborg describes geographically consistent sites that he revisits, insisting that only the rate of movement is subjective and relative to the compatibility of the astral explorer with the target spirit.  But more importantly, why isn't the issue we're discussing ever broached by astral explorers in their conversations with discarnate spirits?   And why can't two independent astral explorers contact the same discarnate spirit at
different times and retrieve the same information? 

To me, these questions are as urgent as one of Charles Tart's findings.  A subject Miss Z, strapped down to a table and connected with scientific instruments, identified a random 5-digit number concealed near the ceiling.  When it was discovered that she might have cheated, she was asked to replicate this feat, but could not do so.  Neither could anyone else.  So what does this failure say about the objectivity of OBEs?  More importantly, some of the OBE research suggests an ability to identify verifiable targets.  So why not this most impressive feat--a large concealed number? 

Secondly, I ask why Supreme Intelligence would subdivide into consciousness probes in the first place?  To develop more PUL challenges?  If so, why? If these questions can lead to testable breakthroughs, then surely one insight is key: Evolution is at the heart of not only creation, but also postmortem consciousness.  But natural selection and genetic mutation are keys to evolution in Nature.  What are the parallel keys to etheric evolution?  Are there as yet undiscovered principles of natural evolution (perhaps principles of evolving consciousness) that apply equally to astral existence?  Duh!

Don   

Don,
I'm not sure I see the parallel between natural selection and spiritual growth. Natural selection develops a species that survives. Spiritual growth is inevitable and individual to the soul in question.  Our spiritual survival is (we are told) not in question. Just the how and when of our path toward integration with the Light.

Don, I'm not sure I understand why someone's interpretation wouldn't be subjective in F27?  All interpretation of any experience, in any moment of time regardless of the event is subjective according to a person's own conscious knowledge and understanding, his/her beliefs, etc.  It's not "geographical objectivity" that defines interactions in any realm of consciousness, but specific laws/rules that pertain to each realm that defines the interaction within it.

Astral explorers, NDE'ers, describe what they may see, hear, feel, etc., but how can one determine what a specific realm is like unless they understand the laws/rules that govern it?  Sure you get some interesting stories to speculate on, but the stories are from a person's own subjective interpretation of their experience.  Wouldn't it be more conducive to our understanding of the non-physical if we were to better understand the laws/rules that govern these realms of consciousness?  The question is how to go about doing that when all we really understand, at least to a certain extent, are the laws/rules that pertain to ELS?  Since that's all we really know, we tend to project what we think we know to our non-physical experiences.

Just because several people see the same thing doesn't necessarily mean that it exists.  It may or may not exist.  For example, many NDE'ers see or go through a tunnel, others do not.  Why would a tunnel exist for some, but not for all?  Couldn't the idea of passing through a tunnel simply be a matter of interpretation of experience?  Would an actual tunnel need to exist?  I don't think so.  And if it doesn't have a need to actually exist, wouldn't the next possibility be that it is simply a very useful metaphor for describing experience?

Any geographically consistent site certainly exists just as ELS exists, but they all, including ELS exist as realms of consciousness with laws/rules that specifically govern each "independent" realm within the consciousness system itself.

"In Him, we live and move and have our being..."  Doesn't that mean the whole of all that exists?  Made in God's image... Wouldn't that mean "Consciousness"?  Though we usually think Spirit.  What seems fundamental are the assumptions that something mystical exists along with a process of evolution... the evolution of a unbelievably huge consciousness system that evolves it's mystical being towards greater, and from our perspective, inconceivable love.  For lack of a better word.

How do we really know that God was in the beginning a supreme intelligence?  Couldn't supreme intelligence have evolved from a substance of potential?  The same potential that exists at the core of each of us as an individualized consciousness being that is only conscious of its existence because of its experiences within the realms of consciousness/virtual worlds? As evolving consciousness, exploring all possibilities, couldn't that explain the existence of good/evil patterns that develop, thereby providing opportunity for choice?  And the necessity for continual, even infinite existence as an evolving being?  I mean, will our work ever be done?  I hope not!  It's the journey that I find most interesting.

Just some things to ponder.  Possibilities... 8-)

Kathy

I've been very busy the past month, but thought I'd report a paranormal experience I heard about today, though it doesn't fit too well with this topic.

Today was the annual trustees parsonage inspection.  One of the trustees, Shane (a science  teacher) said to me, “Guess whom we had over for dinner last night?”  Blank stare!  “Danny.”  Danny was a musically gifted 21-year-old who had played guitar and keyboard for one of our 2 worship services.  He was very respectful to our older adults, but, outside of church, he was a troubled young man with addiction issues that made him drop out of college in his freshman year. He came to church so he could play in our band, but was otherwise angry at the idea of God and was not a professing Christian.  But as Shane explained, Danny had recently had a dramatic conversion experience. 

Around 2 AM, he was driving his souped-up car over 100 m.p.h. on a remote country road with no traffic.  Due to the high speed, he lost control of his car and plummeted over a small cliff.  A police officer later measured the distance he was airborne as 125 ft.  Danny said time dramatically slowed down and even the shattering of his windshield seemed unbelievably slowed down.  As he numbly awaited his fate, an inner voice said, “You are not in control; God is.”  To his great dismay, he was fully conscious after his car was totalled and quickly exited the car as it burst into flames.  God had indeed been in control.  Danny couldn't believe he could stagger up the small hill by the cliff virtually unscathed.  At the top, an old man was walking with a cane.  The man asked Danny, “Are you all right?”   Danny replied, “Yes.”  Then the old man gave him a penetrating stare with steely blue eyes and added, “Yes, you are all right” (as if to say, “Remember what I just said.”).  Then the old man shuffled on with his flashlight.  At that moment, the thought struck Danny, “There's no way an old man would be shuffling along around 2 AM in the middle of nowhere!”  Danny was convinced that a guardian angel had ensured his safe landing and that the old man's sudden appearance was intended to reinforce that thought.  Shane glowed as  he said, “That experience has set Danny's heart on fire for God.” 

But Danny dropped out of his community college after just one year because he became obsessed with composing and performing music.  He played and sang some of his songs for Shane, who remarked how awesome they were.  In fact, Danny has just been signed by Warner Brothers to produce and perform his songs.  I want him to come to my church to share his testimony first-hand and perform his music for us.  His life struggles had greatly endeared him to the hearts of our members.      

This incident reminds me of a similar experience Rondele reported having as a young boy.  I have no answer for the apparent inconsistency with which so-called "guardian angels" intervene, other than the victim's time was apparently not up.

Don

Don-

A great story with a life changing impact.

I will always wonder why some are chosen to be protected against death while some are not.

As far as the old "it's not his time to go" is concerned, I am doubtful that is the answer.  After all, the many young kids that were killed just recently in Oklahoma....was it their time to go?? 

Seems if it's true that some people don't die because it wasn't their time, then for those who do die prematurely does it mean that it was their time? 

Questions to which I doubt we'll ever know the answers.

R

Wonderful Story!


Quote:

I have no answer for the apparent inconsistency with which so-called "guardian angels" intervene, other than the victim's time was apparently not up.

Don,

I don't have any answers, but if you want to speculate:

A - Some "guardian angels" aren't as attentive as they could be.
B - Some "guardian angels" decide the person needs an extraordinary experience to lead them to complete their life's task.
C - Some souls are evolved enough to intervene on their own behalf.  Others are at the mercy of their immature self.
D - All of the above, plus a few others that I likely haven't thought of.

If God shows no partiality... doesn't that leave fallible others to make the decisions?  Uhg... now I've reminded myself of the question of free will and how much free will we really have?

K

Hi Kathy!

Yes, your speculation seems as good as any.  Two
observations come to my mind: (1) Danny is the embodiment of both a noble passion and dissolute living.  His angelic intervention was life-transforming in terms of unleashing great creative and spiritual potential.  I wonder of the anticipated impact of such interventions is a facilitating factor.  In NDEs, the patient is routinely told in the astral realm:  "It's not your time; you have more work to do." 

(2) If evolution is the dominant force in the history of earth life, might there not be parallel evolutionary processes in the afterlife.  In earth life, special individuals or groups seem to have a genetic mutation or mental change that makes new more adaptive behavior possible for more members of the species.  Perhaps ADCs and spirit interventions result from a combination of lucky experimentation in consciousness and unique vibrational compatibilies between incarnate and discarnate spirits. Perhaps the stress of dying inhibits the necessary groupthink that makes such ADCs possible.  Perhaps prerequisite vibrational compatibilities are as elusive as radio-TV frequencies that must be honed through patient experiments.  Now I'm rambling because I don't want to get ready for a long drove to a boring 4-day United Methodist conference tomorrow.  Sigh!

Don

Below is an excerpt of my writings that might answer some of Dons questions.


Excerpts from my writings on the near death phenomenon
The Being of Light might be Jesus, but I think in most cases he/she is your guardian angel which has been allocated to you, from birth until death.

This part of the journey was much like an enormously speeded up movie. Science will tell you the neutrino particle can go through light years of lead without slowing down, likewise my spiritual body going through a planet is within the bounds of possibility, and maybe this is how ghosts or spirits are able to walk through walls. Maybe an ethereal spiritual body is made up of neutrinos? I could not touch or interact with the material universe, which is but one dimension or realm within the countless others that make up all of existence.

Not bound to a physical body’s visual spectrum, one could view the universe in all spectrum's’, from, gamma rays to infra red and more. The ethereal eye is hugely more sensitive than the physical eye and one could peer much deeper into the universe than even the greatest earthly telescope. Try to image this of course is impossible? Instead of space being black, with this heightened sense of vision, the universe lit up with a billion, trillion ever changing colors of breathtaking beauty. Blind people who have had a near death experience often report seeing visually for the very first time using their ethereal senses. I call this soul senses or soul sight.

Racing outward and outward through the universe it seem to shrink behind us and the arrow of time reversed from future to past as we moved closer and closer toward the zero point moment of creation or big bang singularity, the void we call outer space shrinking out of existence into nothingness.

Size or scale is really meaningless in the grand order of existence. the singularity the point of infinite density and energy was also infinite in size and dimension in the beginning because it was all that is, it did not emerge into a vast empty void, it brought the void with it, and this void we call space is both finite and infinite because there exist the grand multiverse that contains all of existent within it. Existence is infinite and eternal. Each universe is like infinity with all universes all expanding or contracting into each other for eternity. Did I understand all this no I did not?

The best description I can give of existence is that there is an infinite eternal colossal ocean; God is the cause and creator of all existence because everything must have a cause to exist. Only God has no cause he is the unfathomable un-caused, cause, on which float an infinity of universes, like bubbles of foam, each different but all evolving living and dying just as if they were great beings. To get from one universe requires punching a hole between one into the other. (Black Hole?)

Our universe is a universe of both light and dark, other universes might be pure living light and other infinite abysmal dark and cold. Heavens and hells I am sure are located in some of these universes and the ethereal soul body can with permission pass easily between them.

Exploding out of our universe, the whole universe began to recede at a colossal rate, first becoming an enormous sparkling dark plane, a sort of flat surface. (Like the earth appears to us when we view it from a little height). This beautiful plane , or surface or edge of the universe (of course in reality the universe has no edge or surface just my semantics) twinkled with brilliant a billion trillion multicolored pulsating aurora borealis like lights, unexplainable beautiful.

As we continued outward further and further from our physical universe it changed from being a vast plain slowly becoming a colossal almost infinitely large orb, then shrinking down and down as we traveled further and further away from it, until it became into a smaller and smaller globe finally at a colossal distant, it became but a tiny spot, a mere tiny small singularity, within the infinity that makes up all of existence, amongst the eternal infinite foam of numberless other realities, and physical universes that reside it this blazing infinite dimensionless golden light that is the breath of God.

I relate this of course in the dimness of my limited mind as these things are unexplainable in human terms or languages.

This light of purest golden light is limitless, boundless, and infinite in every direction, it is where the “ Holy Spirit of God” is so concentrated unimaginably pure holy and so intense that an entity could vanish from existence if it tried to enter without permission. Gods concentrated awareness is like a welcoming warm golden sun,” The “Sun of Righteousness” shall rise with healing in His wings”

If we remember the “Lords Prayer”, Our “Father” who art in “Heaven”, this is the domain, within the ocean of foam that contains all the universes is where the presence of God is all most tangible, the highest state of pure inexhaustibly indestructible energy, it is were Gods awareness is most concentrated it you like, this might seem an oxymoron, that

God is also omnipresent, but He is inconceivable.” To the mere puny understanding of man.

Jesus said in the Gospels that in my “Fathers House” are many mansions. It is the “Great Ocean” of all Existence the source of all creation, and all the great rivers of life flow into it. It is the experience that millions of mystics over time have tried to obtain, but all in vain, no matter what they claim.

As we hovering quietly, in this Infinite Sacred a silence blanketed us with unspeakable, peace and love of this purest stillness of holy golden light, which I knew, was Gods presence. I, nevertheless inquired as to where we where? In my inner self I knew it could only be what, I heard a voiceless voice was saying to me, “you are standing in the “Breath of God” also called the “Holy Spirit”

We were temporarily existing within the Pure composite golden light of Almighty Living God which is outside of normal material space and time, where the ethereal realms, heavens, planes and higher dimensions are. These are our destinies after we die.

Indeed, I now dwelt in the everlasting infinite moment. I knew God was a loving forgiving God only a Holy God that will not tolerate any depravity in his house. There are those who will have to endure hells of their own making. We should note that we will all have to account to a Holy God for what we did right or what we did wrong after we die.

Lifting my soul eyes into this great light from a vast distance with the Being of Light still at my side as my guide, bliss and ecstasy filled my soul as I tried to look at the golden radiance of God the Creator who is brighter than any sun, yet I could behold some of his glory without hurt or flinching my spiritual eyes.

God’s pure translucent light and love moved over and through me, washing every hidden place of my heart, removing all hurt and fear, transforming my very being into a song of joy. Gods love is conditional on how we behave in life
It was a love so Divine so unimaginably so non-judgmental to those that love him, that I wept in joyful wonder at our beautiful God, who I can say without any reservations I love beyond words because his forgiving love is complete yet, the light toward which we were soaring was the fulfillment of my search, the loving Source of all that exists, the God of truth and unconditional love, the originator and author of all creation.

Then for a brief moment the mysteries of eternal knowledge flowed through me and filled my mind with the wonder of the power of it. Although I could not retain this knowledge I was assured that one beautiful day I would have access to it, without any reservations. It would be the ultimate trust that God could give to one of his creations.

God spoke to me saying “life should be enjoyed, understood, meaningful and nothing should be feared, the very worst that mortal earthly life can throw at you is transient and temporary, your essence and my essence will always exist and will always continue to exist within the grand orders of reality. Indeed I knew you before the earth existed”.

It was clear to me then that the universe was mostly good and that evil will never prevail against the light. Beautifully interconnectedness into one glorious harmonious whole is the final purpose of God for our universe. “This is still a work in progress”. Evil was allowed in the physical realms so that people can use their free will to love God and their fellow beings as they love themselves.

I felt the warmth of the eternal fire, within the spirit of my being and I was filled by it with a sustained sense of exultation, immense joy, peace, rapture and sublime bliss.

My awareness or consciousness expanding until it encompassed the entire universe and all existence. While I knew I was not God, and that I was only bright tiny facet of the unimaginably beautiful diamond that we call God. It was like riding on the shoulders of God, looking out at the universe with his eyes and understanding everything from time immemorial, to the present, into the unimaginable far future.

Everything at once in an instant moment, but also I saw all things and understood all things through all of eternity, both somehow, at once. Time became meaningless and did dot flow in the linear way it did in the physical realms.
Then without traveling we immediately stood in a marble Parthenon like palace, the walls glowed in crystalline inner blue luminosity. Strange beings of glowing light of seeming unimaginable noble wisdom walked the corridors of this universal library of the souls. Where these great beings the Great Arch Angels of God?

An intellectual illumination beyond any description overflowed my mind and. I knew then that the will of Gods was for all humanity to be immortal and possess eternal life. “Death was not the natural order of Gods creation” and this mystery of life, death and evil remain a mystery to be revealed as God said in the Book of Revelation. The crucial plan of the universe was for the good of all that dwelt within its as yet still brilliant unimaginable beautiful and vast golden boarders.

The heavens declared the glory of Gods handiwork and his creation is so wonderful that I have no words in the English language to describe it. Our mortal bodies are wonderfully knit together a work of infinite precision and meticulous creativity by the awesome intellect of God, and our human brain a prime example of the infinite mind of God. Our mortal bodies, however, are not in the image of God. It is our spirit or soul that mirrors his image and thus God made man to think like Him albeit in a lesser way. God Imagined man (imagine-man.).

The concept of time vanished and I seem to exist in an everlasting moment. The physical universe was indeed a most precious jewel in the mind of God. God created time, he is the Timekeeper if you like, he has a sort of a stop watch, starting at the Alpha moment and stopping at the Omega moment, the Beginning and End. I saw in my “minds eye” a huge clock. Something like a doomsday clock, it had only a second hand and this hand was turning towards the top of the hour, but it would advance clockwise and reverse anticlockwise, sometimes advancing fifteen seconds and retreating ten.

I think when the second hand finally reaches the top of the hour something catastrophic and cataclysmic is going to happen, maybe the end of the world and time?

We are Gods observers if you like, things exist because there is someone to observe them, and we are also co-creators with other souls and indeed God himself

Alan

Quote:

Don quoted In that case, the principle of like attracts like may be only one of many principles that drive the shape of these virtual realities.  Perhaps, then, we should give up the concept of Focus 24-26 as BSTs, not because it is false, but because this label is too oversimplified. A thief's hell consisting of thieves might serve as a mirror of one's core desires, so that the misery caused by robbery schemes boomerangs enough be experienced as a window into one's own rapacious soul.  But one is never just a thief; rather that character flaw is normally part of a complex of flawed core desires and aptitudes.  So virtual worlds might need to be morally multi-faced in their construction to serve as teaching tools for complexes of core desires, rather than for a just one obvious flaw. Perhaps the principle of like attracts like prompts an astral explorer who has just encountered a dead thief to then encounter other thieves to sustain the explorer's current focus of thought.  In this way, the illusion of just a thief's hell might be created, when in face the moral and spiritual issues addressed in that virtual reality might be far more multi-faceted.    But, Kathy, if your suggestion is correct, surely astral explorers should be discovering planes in which such an adapted learning curve is more obvious. Then again, perhaps that is precisely what George Ritchie was exposed to during his prolonged NDE.  He witnessss hellish planes over which benign beings (helpers?) hover.  He also visits a plane "below haaven" which strikes him as the astral equivalent of a university with all sorts of exotic labs and subjects under study.

Hi Don,

I wonder what the likes of Hitler, or his cronies, or Ted Bundy or Jeffrey Dimmer are/did experience?

Now that they are existing somewhere in the afterlife. I won't say where (?) because people only want to believe in the heavenly planes in the afterlife, not the just as real opposite realms.

Take Hitler for example, in isolation, in this post. If his passing- over was like most other nde"s his "life review" in itself it must have been unspeakably horrible. He would have to experience both objectively and subjectively, all the pain, deprivation, cold hunger, terror, go though the same gas chamber deaths, be slaughtered by poison gas and have his body burned over and over again in the furnaces of his death camps. In addition this psychopath would have to:

Observe his family/friends being separated and torn out of his arms and taken to the death chambers to die and unspeakable death. He would relive, as if he were the very people, all the suffering caused by his actions and decisions, each individual victim in turn, right down to all the each relatives of his each of his victims.

He would have to live the life of each person (As if he were each person) The total suffered of all the holocaust victims in the death camps as well as live the life, death of all the fifty plus million people (As if he were each of them) that died in the Second World War. It would not stop there, because in the “life Review” he would also feel the exact same sorrow and desolation,despair and hopelessness of every person on earth, that was effected/affected by his evil decisions while he was a mortal on earth.

As far as God is concerned the "buck stopped with him" because he was prime cause of all the unspeakable, suffering of the Second World War. He started it so he was/is accountable to God for what happened during all those appalling years.

Yes! we are accountable to a Holy and Righteous God for all our actions during earthly life, both good and evil. And there are rewards for goodness, altruism, such as brotherly love, agape love, and severe punishment for all forms of depravity.

Killing , murdering or molesting a little child is the most despicable act a human can do, in this life and Jesus made a special comment about the eternal consequences if you do this. Pedophiles beware!

Alan

Quote:

Quote by KarmaLars Alan. How's it's going. I've wondered where you got to? I've been reading your wild, far out, mentally mixed intuitive posts over the last 12 years on the net on various new age sites. I've heard from my Afrikaner friend living in the Johannesburg suburb of Centurion, that you had a brief stay in a hospital for stress and mental recuperation. Stay Well. Lars.

Your user name is familiar, do I know you? I have never been hospitalized for stress. However, I admit to being hospitalized years ago for bi-polar disorder from which I have recovered and I am now very balanced and well. Who is this Afrikaner friend?

My main interests are in the in the sciences, especially astrophysics.

Hey Lars,

You just had to get that dig in, didn't you?  Alan's personal medical history is not important to this forum, and your implication that it somehow should be taken into account when one reads Alan's far out writings is, well - loathsome.

Why not just comment on a thread when you have something to add, or avoid it if it is not your cup of tea, instead of making it personal?

Just a thought.


M

Alan,


Quote:

As far as God is concerned the "buck stopped with him" because he was prime cause of all the unspeakable, suffering of the Second World War. He started it so he was/is accountable to God for what happened during all those appalling years.

Hitler was the brain, which had it's influcences, and needed a lot of hands to turn visions into reality. Higher up in the hiearchy, the prime cause of everything - the originator and author of all creation - is accountable for everything. What a mess.


Quote:

The total suffered of all the holocaust victims in the death camps as well as live the life, death of all the fifty plus million people (As if he were each of them) that died in the Second World War.

Fifty plus millions, where does this number come from?

Kudos on the imaginative vengance. How unfortunate that we don't remember anything when coming into this world. There would be a lot of foaming around the mouths. Even in the astral people would imagine mouths so that they could take part in the foaming.


Quote:

Killing , murdering or molesting a little child is the most despicable act a human can do, in this life and Jesus made a special comment about the eternal consequences if you do this. Pedophiles beware!

One god is god of truth and unconditional love, but the other god isn't?

Hi Lars,

This is exactly what you do - try to personally attack or bully people on the board, rather than talk about the topic (10 unanswered core assumptions).  Kathy and Alysia here know me, (from this board), and in discussions with them, I have shared my last name, (and with others here). I am a real physician, and work at a well  teaching hospital in NYC.   I have PM'd people on this board offering what help I can regarding medical advice. I don't go by my full name here because it is a public forum, and I feel that afterlife beliefs shouldn't filter into my professional life.

  Does that information somehow make a difference in this discussion?  Of course not.  But that is typical in your posts.  That you have repeatedly attacked people in this way (referring to Alan's past trouble; wondering aloud if I were really a physician) is just mean spirited and hateful.  Do everyone a favor and take the attacks somewhere else.

M

Lars,
Doc is the real deal, not that he need defend himself to the likes of you.

KarmaLars wrote on Jul 12^th, 2013 at 12:50am:

DocM wrote on Jul 10th, 2013 at 10:08am: Hey Lars, You just had to get that dig in, didn't you?  Alan's personal medical history is not important to this forum, and your implication that it somehow should be taken into account when one reads Alan's far out writings is, well - loathsome. Why not just comment on a thread when you have something to add, or avoid it if it is not your cup of tea, instead of making it personal? Just a thought. M Hey M! Are you really a medico? Tell us what hospital you work at?..If you want it kept secret, send me an email and I'll ring you up to confirm it...Or are you going to put it into the 'too hard basket' just like many on this forum do. Lars.

Lars,

More like this belongs in YOUR "It's none of my business basket" however, I can absolutely tell you that Matthew is a doctor that practices medicine in NYC.

btw... it seems you have a bit of trouble relating to people in meaningful ways.  I'm a psychologist and spent much of my adult life working with children.  Perhaps I can help.  ::)

Kathy

She is, obviously. She responded to you.

KarmaLars wrote on Jul 14^th, 2013 at 12:18am:

DocM wrote on Jul 13th, 2013 at 8:50am: Hi Lars, This is exactly what you do - try to personally attack or bully people on the board, rather than talk about the topic (10 unanswered core assumptions).  Kathy and Alysia here know me, (from this board), and in discussions with them, I have shared my last name, (and with others here). I am a real physician, and work at a well  teaching hospital in NYC.   I have PM'd people on this board offering what help I can regarding medical advice. I don't go by my full name here because it is a public forum, and I feel that afterlife beliefs shouldn't filter into my professional life.   Does that information somehow make a difference in this discussion?  Of course not.  But that is typical in your posts.  That you have repeatedly attacked people in this way (referring to Alan's past trouble; wondering aloud if I were really a physician) is just mean spirited and hateful.  Do everyone a favor and take the attacks somewhere else. M M. I never really bullied anybody. It is your egoistic reaction to my post that annoys you! I just asked questions. Lars

The question didn't seem so innocent when you are basically questioning the honesty and intregity of Matthew to begin with.  That might not be technically bullying in this case but its probably not necessary and at least wee bit inconsiderate.

Don't respond to Lars and thus likely encourage him is my suggestion. This thread is very interesting, I'd love to read more about the original issues discssed here.

Some people remind you how much talk there is about love being great and the solution to everything, but how in reality you shy away from it like a retarted kid with big teary eyes and non-stop crying. :'(

The 10 assumptions - "embraced or rejected through a doctrinaire Ghetto mentality" - ironic coming from a doctrinaire christian mentality. Which is "the one" doctrinaire? That's subjective, like 10 (b).

10 (a) Souls disks, as subjective experience by some, have small extensions powered by the oversoul, connecting to physical bodies and animating them for experience. Living in in disks like physical houses misses the point when the extensions and disks are one and the same at the end of the day. What are disks/oversouls going to do with these experiences? Make excellent and out of this world non-physical waffles?

Hi Lars,

Kathy knows me, So does Alysia and Bardo.  In communications with them, I have shared my last name, profession, email address, etc.  When you communicate freely with people on a forum and are not attacked, you tend to do that.  I have shared much about myself with them and have no doubt of their good intentions.  You are a different kettle of fish, and I have no desire to share the same information with you.  The others have confirmed my identity here.  Your question was asked and answered.  How is it relevant to this thread, I wonder?  Of course it has no importance to this board.  You brought it up to try to mudsling (although frankly I don't think of my medical degree as making me any more or less important than anyone here - it just gives me a different take on things and a different set of information)

You also never address the issues of maliciously and repeatedly badmouthing other posters on this site along with Bruce himself.  Why do it?  Why return to do it so often?  If you do not agree with this website or what is posted on it, why not find a website that better suits your needs? (the "Don Rickles" insult board perhaps?) And why get into derogatory comments about people?  It accomplishes nothing and throws these threads off track.

M