Berserk2 wrote on Jan 18^th, 2013 at 4:28pm:

...ES's theological beliefs... I consider his bibiical interpretations fatally flawed... ...ES is far brighter than any modern adepts; indeed, he is probably the greatest scientific mind in Swedish history. Don

Berserk2, you both think ES is "fatally flawed" and a "greatest scientific mind".

Are you just cherry picking ideas of ES according to your own random
likings? Rejecting other parts based on your whim?

That doesn't add up.

Here's a thought, Paulie. Demonstrate that you actually have a mind and explain what ES meant by his uniquely poetic understanding of "Last Judgment" and "Second Coming of Christ" before you excrete your irrelevant ignorance.  I mean, you have no clue about what the words you use mean in a Swedenborgian context.  Better still, actually read the Swedenborg thread to discover just how brilliant the man was, despite his flaws.  And if you must emote Hallelujahs like irrelevant turds into serious discussions, at least learn to spell the word!   

Berserk2 wrote on Jan 18^th, 2013 at 10:35pm:

Here's a thought, Paulie. Demonstrate that you actually have a mind and explain what ES meant by his uniquely poetic understanding of "Last Judgment" and "Second Coming of Christ" before you excrete your irrelevant ignorance.  I mean, you have no clue about what the words you use mean in a Swedenborgian context.  Better still, actually read the Swedenborg thread to discover just how brilliant the man was, despite his flaws.  And if you must emote Hallelujahs like irrelevant turds into serious discussions, at least learn to spell the word!

The only Turd here is you Don! Excreting your usual religious self-righteous intellectual diatribe!   

Berserk2, answer the questions!

After all, you have claimed yourself into being knowledgeable about Swedenborg.

Quote:

"And if you must emote Hallelujahs like irrelevant turds into serious discussions, at least learn to spell the word!"

Hey Fon. Seriously, is this christian neighbourly turn the cheek love? It is similar to new age unconditional love, and PUL. They say it is what everyone should strive for it, until turdy words show them exactly where they are in that regard, and where they are not. Not at all unconditional. By the way, have a serious day.

So your tactic is to shot the messenger?

So your tactic is to shot the messenger?[/quote]

I believe the word you want is 'shoot."  No, not shoot; just to ignore --in the same way I would ignore posters who argue that that Holocaust never happened or, as in your case, that a plane never crashed into the Pentagon on 9/11. 

Yes, shoot.

Pick something from your 800 pages book and I'll shoot it to pieces.

Berserk, no matter where I touch your carefully built up card house
about Swedenborg, it seems to crumble rather rapidly.

Let's take an interesting claim about Swedenborg.

Reincarnation.

---


I've tried to figure out how many books Swedenborg wrote. One source
said 120 books, another source said 300 books. The exact number of books
written by Swedenborg seems debated as he did his writings in works,
which contained many smaller and bigger books.

Several of Swedenborg's works were not published until after his death.

So to simplify thing, let's go for the lower number. Assume that Swedenborg
only wrote 120 books, which still is very many books.

---


If Swedenborg didn't think reincarnation was true, wouldn't he mentioned
his opinion in several books? If we after all assume that he wrote 120
books, and he was very concerned with Heaven and Hell, wouldn't he
have stated his opinion about reincarnation in several books?

No?

Not at all?

In fact, even True Christians (followers of Swedenborg) can't find
more than one book of Swedenborg where he remotely speaks about
something which seems related to reincarnation.

Strange, isn't it?

One book.

---


What book do True Christians mention? Well, their only source to
their claim that Swedenborg didn't believe in reincarnation, is his
book 'Heaven and Hell', and the only passages which can be
referred concerning reincarnation are HH 246 and HH 256.

Let's look at them. Here is an extract from HH 246:

"...angels cannot utter a single word of human language (see n. 237);
furthermore, human language is natural and they are spiritual, and
spiritual beings cannot give expression to anything in a natural way."


And from HH 256 (my bold text):

"If a spirit were to speak from his own memory with a man the man would
not know otherwise than that the thoughts then in his mind were his own,
although they were the spirit’s thoughts. This would be like the
recollection of something which the man had never heard or seen.

That this is so has been given me to know from experience. This is
the source of the belief held by some of the ancients that after some
thousands of years they were to return into their former life, and into
everything they had done, and in fact, had returned. This they concluded
because at times there came to them a sort of recollection of things that
they had never seen or heard."


Surprise, Surprise!

As you can see, Swedenborg actually speaks in favor of reincarnation.

But regardless of Swedenborg being against or for reincarnation, neither
does the Disk concept take such traditional positions. For example Monroe
visited a dead friend in F 27 and at one time saw an "overlay" of a child,
who recently had died.

It proved to be another incarnation of Monroe's friend, but at the same
time, the original incarnation was still present. So reincarnations in
the Disk/I-There concept are different, as it is the Disk which sends
down collected parts to become incarnated as a new individual.

They next incarnation is not a traditional Hindu/Buddha _reincarnation_
in regards of the Disk/I-There concept.

As you can see, reincarnation in both Swedenborg's view and in the Disk
concept can be quite similar and possible.

---


Why then does True Christians claim that Swedenborg denied
reincarnation? Well, the reason is probably that they are
Christians, so they have to deny reincarnation.

The concept of reincarnation has been removed from the Bible, that's
why. Removed by reasons of political and religious stupidity.

I'm an atheist. The Bible is crap. So Berserk, I just wanted to point
this out to you. I still assume that you are speechless.

Quote:

I believe the word you want is 'shoot."  No, not shoot; just to ignore --in the same way I would ignore posters who argue that that Holocaust never happened or, as in your case, that a plane never crashed into the Pentagon on 9/11.

Shoot is indeed the word Don, when you now and then aim at an ascended version of love, thinking and writing about it, but repeatedly miss when action is supposed to follow the worded desires, and your masters' commands. Oh, shoot.

Holocaust deniers, conspiracy theorists; labels gladly pegged onto someone as reasons not to like them. Booo. But also, you're compiling a list of your enemies in another sense. You list those you cannot bring into the fold of your love. Oh, shoot.

In his book "Heaven and Hell" Swedenborg wrote than when a man spirit and woman spirit get married, they merge to an extent where the man half becomes completely responsible for thinking, while the woman half becomes responsible for will. I find this hard to believe.

Swedenborg wrote some things that sound accurate to me, but he also wrote some things that don't.  Therefore, I believe it would be foolish for me to conclude that reincarnation doesn't exist in some way simply because he wrote that it doesn't.

There are sources of information that are significantly more current and expansive than Swedenborg and they state that in some way reincarnation does exist. This way of thinking matches my own experience. My experience doesn't become invalid simply because it doesn't support the viewpoint somebody else is very staunchly defending.

Don:

You really don't do yourself a favor if you limit yourself to the notion that a source can't be valid if it speaks of reincarnation.

Trying to figure this matter out isn't simply a matter of using your logic, because logic won't do the trick if you are overly attached to obtaining a certain conclusion.

To some degree, you are probably afraid to seriously consider if reincarnation exists because if you allow yourself to do so you'll accept (supposed) misinformation that comes from deceptive beings.  As long as you have good intentions you should feel free to seriously consider whether reincarnation in some  way exists.

Also, it isn't fair for you to expect other people to be open minded to what you have to say, when you aren't willing to be open minded to what they have to say. I'm not saying you have to accept what they say blindly. But occasionally you have to be willing to admit that you might be wrong about something.

My way of thinking has changed quite a bit since I joined this forum. Do you feel as if your way of thinking has changed at all since you joined?

Recoverer quoting from Swedenborg: "the man half becomes completely responsible for thinking, while the woman half becomes responsible for will."

Who is Will?

(a silly burst of giggles in the background)

You probably know this, but I meant "willpower."


wrote on Jan 23^rd, 2013 at 6:06pm:

Recoverer quoting from Swedenborg: "the man half becomes completely responsible for thinking, while the woman half becomes responsible for will." Who is Will? (a silly burst of giggles in the background)

Thanks!

Sorry for that...but it's hard for me to take these discussions so seriously. Good grief, but we do all go on and on trying to be so completely logical about everything.

It's very, very serious matter. Will is the one at the end. It's under
Swedenborg's HH 367:

"Marriage in heaven is a conjunction of two into one mind. (. . .)
So in heaven a married pair is spoken of, not as two, but as one angel."


When you marry in Heaven, you become a little angel.

Will.

PauliEffectt wrote on Jan 23^rd, 2013 at 6:41pm:

It's very, very serious matter. Will is the one at the end. It's under Swedenborg's HH 367: "Marriage in heaven is a conjunction of two into one mind. (. . .) So in heaven a married pair is spoken of, not as two, but as one angel." When you marry in Heaven, you become a little angel. Will.

But, how will I Know I'm Will...someone, anyone could be deceiving me into thinking I'm Will...I'm afraid, so very afraid!

This is all so confusing and terribly flawed... :)

Quote:

In his book "Heaven and Hell" Swedenborg wrote than when a man spirit and woman spirit get married, they merge to an extent where the man half becomes completely responsible for thinking, while the woman half becomes responsible for will. I find this hard to believe.

I think this is taken too literal. It comes close enough to what I would think possible to consider it as a half-translated energetic/symbolic concept.

It is possible for two persons to merge minds, to step into a close energetic union. Author Kurt Leland (who also discussed Swedenborg in his book "The Unanswered Question") calls the associated phenomena "mind merge" and "permeation."

A mind merge is the temporary direct contact of two minds as experienced in nonphysical reality. On the highermost planes this becomes the mode of communication.

Permeation is the more permanent process, a concept that could be called a "spiritual marriage" as most of the people that experience it experience it in the context of a romantic relationship. If both partners can allow the needed intimacy they experience a merge at the energetic - causal or soul - levels. They retain separate identities but also share intensively on the energetic levels.

In a sense, a couple achieving permeation goes in and out of a mind merge. Achieving permeation can help along experiencing mind merges in nonphysical reality.

From the viewpoint of a clairvoyant observer - such as Swedenborg was - this could look like two separate entities becoming one, and from a certain perspective this is the case. The term "angel" could then be synonymous for other terms like "soul body" or "causal body."

The second part of the quotation probably has more to do with preconceptions. Both the failure to fully translate and the intrusion of preconceptions could be attributed to Swedenborg's belief system - what he believed to be possible and how he personally related to reality.

I think the original observation was probably from a valid experience. Clairvoyance and nonphysical experiences are subject to translation through our belief systems, affected by our emotional state, and even our physical health (think for example "fever dreams") can play a role.

What we think we see is not seen, but translated by our mind into pictures. This is most true in the nonphysical realities. I still think that Swedenborg made many interesting and valid observations, but I would not take his word as "gold standard" without interpreting it.

For me, this idea is not a dry academic concept. I'm experiencing the onset of this permeation process with another person, currently not in the context of a romantic relationship. It's a highly interesting experience, something I would not trade for anything else. It is very fulfilling. On a clairvoyant "vision" this looked to me like our energy bodies danced as if they were two interwoven spirals - only touching in selected places, but already sharing the same "space."

Somebody else might see something else, or interpret it differently. This is only my take on it. :)

I haven't read "Heaven and Hell" recently, I checked it out from a local library. Going by what I can remember Swedenborg clearly said that when a female spirit marries a male spirit she loses the ability to think because the male takes over that responsibility.

I have couple of Kurt Leland books, he says some interesting things, but much of it it quite different from what other people including myself have found out. Some of his conclusions just don't make sense.



O wrote on Jan 24^th, 2013 at 11:23am:

Quote: In his book "Heaven and Hell" Swedenborg wrote than when a man spirit and woman spirit get married, they merge to an extent where the man half becomes completely responsible for thinking, while the woman half becomes responsible for will. I find this hard to believe. I think this is taken too literal. It comes close enough to what I would think possible to consider it as a half-translated energetic/symbolic concept. It is possible for two persons to merge minds, to step into a close energetic union. Author Kurt Leland (who also discussed Swedenborg in his book "The Unanswered Question") calls the associated phenomena "mind merge" and "permeation." A mind merge is the temporary direct contact of two minds as experienced in nonphysical reality. On the highermost planes this becomes the mode of communication. Permeation is the more permanent process, a concept that could be called a "spiritual marriage" as most of the people that experience it experience it in the context of a romantic relationship. If both partners can allow the needed intimacy they experience a merge at the energetic - causal or soul - levels. They retain separate identities but also share intensively on the energetic levels. In a sense, a couple achieving permeation goes in and out of a mind merge. Achieving permeation can help along experiencing mind merges in nonphysical reality. From the viewpoint of a clairvoyant observer - such as Swedenborg was - this could look like two separate entities becoming one, and from a certain perspective this is the case. The term "angel" could then be synonymous for other terms like "soul body" or "causal body." The second part of the quotation probably has more to do with preconceptions. Both the failure to fully translate and the intrusion of preconceptions could be attributed to Swedenborg's belief system - what he believed to be possible and how he personally related to reality. I think the original observation was probably from a valid experience. Clairvoyance and nonphysical experiences are subject to translation through our belief systems, affected by our emotional state, and even our physical health (think for example "fever dreams") can play a role. What we think we see is not seen, but translated by our mind into pictures. This is most true in the nonphysical realities. I still think that Swedenborg made many interesting and valid observations, but I would not take his word as "gold standard" without interpreting it. For me, this idea is not a dry academic concept. I'm experiencing the onset of this permeation process with another person, currently not in the context of a romantic relationship. It's a highly interesting experience, something I would not trade for anything else. It is very fulfilling. On a clairvoyant "vision" this looked to me like our energy bodies danced as if they were two interwoven spirals - only touching in selected places, but already sharing the same "space." Somebody else might see something else, or interpret it differently. This is only my take on it. :)

I have yet to experience something that would contradict Kurt.

What would those conclusions be?

I haven't read Leland's books recently, hopefully my memory is accurate.

One thing he wrote is that spirits don't have a way to release anger. So if a person dies with anger, that person's spirit has to go into a living person's body in order to release that anger. He wrote that this is why some people have Turrets Syndrome. ??

He wrote this is what happens with possessed people. They get possessed so a spirit can have an anger moment. I believe there is a lot more to it than that.

He wrote that such spirits use the body of a person who is in a Coma.?????

He wrote that the spirits of people who just died get stuck in their body and have to be pushed out. ????

There were a few other things, this is all I can remember now.

It is interesting that he wrote about Swedenborg. If I remember correctly he compared what Swedenborg said to the Tibetan Book of the Dead. It is interesting that he wrote about Swedenborg since what he states is quite different than what Swedenborg states.


O wrote on Jan 24^th, 2013 at 3:37pm:

I have yet to experience something that would contradict Kurt. What would those conclusions be?

Not only are there problems with Swedenborg's Last Judgement and
his Second Coming of Jesus.


We also have the lack of clear retrievals in Swedenborg's writings. There
could be a simple reason for that. Swedenborg was very stuck in his
own Christian beliefs.

I think it is unlikely that Swedenborg managed to make much astral travels
to other places than Focus 25. A person who only can go to F 25, can have
severe problems in helping people reach F 27.

I think that's the reason why there are so few clear accounts of Swedenborg
on retrievals. Maybe he did help some people be retrieved as it probably
is enough with talking to some stuck people to enable Helpers to step
in and retrieve the stuck person to Focus 27.

But it's very doubtful that Swedenborg ever was farther than the Hollow Heavens
and Hells in F 25, where he saw people be thrown.

Swedenborg may not be the ideal person to do retrievals.



Berserk wrote on Dec 13^th, 2005 at 12:48am:

RETRIEVALS: One of the things that has bothered me about ES is his failure to mention the possibility of performing retrievals.  His astral insight that new discarnates in the World of Spirits gradually ascend to a heaven or descend to a hell may already imply the use of retrievals. But now I've  found a passage in Benz that seem to imply that ES even retrieved some evil discarnates in Hell: "The devils he converts change before his eyes, lose their bestial form, and regain their human faces (Benz, p. 327).

Berserk, I'm not so sure that's a clear-cut retrieval.

It could be Swedenborg's own overlay on a person, which caused that
person to look like a monster. When Swedenborg sent that person PUL,
the appearance of that person changed.



Berserk wrote on Sep 8^th, 2005 at 6:03pm:

Also, few realize that the New Testament teaches the possibility of postmortem soul retrievals (e.g. 1 Corinthians 15:29; 1 Peter 3:19-20; 4:6).

Berserk, maybe there are some advice for retrievals, but I really doubt it as
those quotes are from the Bible, which means that they are the results of
more religious stupidity.

Also, those passages from the Bible are very sketch, like the cartoonish Noah's Ark
and the 8 people and two creatures of all animals who enter the Ark. Even
Hollywood today has problems with making movies on the theme
of Noah's Ark for other than kids.



Berserk2 wrote on Jan 7^th, 2012 at 2:16am:

On this site, there is a retrieval section.  In contrast to ES, the rarity of any veriifications reported here and the vast gap in evidential value of alleged verifications (compared to ES) persuades me, sadly, that none of these retrieval reports are genuine.  I regret this because, if I'm allowed, soul retrievals would be my ministry of choice in the afterlife, and the New  Testament and early church teach that retrievals are possible.

I don't think retrievals' purpose is to give ego trips or make anyone a minister
over others. That's religion.

Preaching something which could be a new build of yet another Belief System
is not purposeful. Maybe you instead could become a teacher, who shows
people open doors where they could make their own discoveries?

A minister can only preach what's already chopped into stone, and most of it
is religious stupidity. Bible-talk.

I agree that the lack of verifications is a little disturbing, but at the same
time, maybe there is some reason for us not getting verifications that
often? If we get to know a lot of deceased people, couldn't we later on
be affecting live people's lives in a way which we have no right to do?

recoverer wrote on Jan 24^th, 2013 at 3:53pm:

I haven't read Leland's books recently, hopefully my memory is accurate. One thing he wrote is that spirits don't have a way to release anger. So if a person dies with anger, that person's spirit has to go into a living person's body in order to release that anger. He wrote that this is why some people have Turrets Syndrome. ?? He wrote this is what happens with possessed people. They get possessed so a spirit can have an anger moment. I believe there is a lot more to it than that. He wrote that such spirits use the body of a person who is in a Coma.????? He wrote that the spirits of people who just died get stuck in their body and have to be pushed out. ???? There were a few other things, this is all I can remember now. It is interesting that he wrote about Swedenborg. If I remember correctly he compared what Swedenborg said to the Tibetan Book of the Dead. It is interesting that he wrote about Swedenborg since what he states is quite different than what Swedenborg states.

As far as I remember Kurt wrote that it can happen that spirits stuck with excess of emotions that prevent from moving forward in the afterlife can bleed it off in several ways into physical reality, where the energy is basically ground down, broken up and filters back to other uses.

He portrays several ways of this happening, one symbolized in a sort of centrifuge in Otherwhere, where the emotions just seem to be extracted into the astral plane. So those deceased persons seem to have brought only minor residues to the afterlife and pass through the stages quickly.

A strong excess would usually attract spirits to the lower astral planes according to the principle that like attracts like (like in Bob Monroe's "Ball of Lust" hell). The cases of the "lightning rod" effect seem to be stronger cases where other means are not sufficient. IIRC also Bob Monroe wrote about spirits with alcohol problems in life looking for the vicinity of angry drunkards.

The thing about the anger release is not only something happening to the deceased. We all seem to do it while we are alive, that's why psychic hygiene like regular meditation is so important. I had a dream experience once where another person tried to release their emotions on me in the same way, but I protected myself. This was a person in the same household.

Possession is a complex topic, and I don't think Kurt gave a final opinion on that one. (EDIT: I'd also add personally that the term is used interchangeably for a wide range of phenomena with different cause and severity.)

IIRC he wrote that the etheric body is not always completely separated from the dying physical body at death, but that this eventually takes place for everyone. I would think of it as lingering in the vicinity until the link fully dissolves. Certain burial rites seem to speed this process of separation, like burning the body IIRC.

He wrote about Swedenborg in a comparative "study" of several views of the afterlife - including the Tibetan idea of "Bardo" states, Swedenborg, Dante's Inferno (in Otherwhere), NDEs and other experiences.

PauliEffectt wrote on Jan 25^th, 2013 at 6:50am:

I think it is unlikely that Swedenborg managed to make much astral travels to other places than Focus 25. A person who only can go to F 25, can have severe problems in helping people reach F 27.

I think this view on the Focus levels is too limited. Being a practicing Christian does not prevent one from experiencing higher planes of existence.

I personally think that Swedenborg did not always do the best possible inner translation of what he has seen, but it would be oversimplified to say "He cannot have been there for his Christian beliefs."

The Belief System Territories as postulated by Monroe may receive their share of spirits during the afterdeath journey, I can readily believe that. But I think their purpose is to lay off the limiting beliefs one held during life. The movement of the discarnate in the afterlife seems to be very limited, dictated by the limiting emotions and beliefs needing to be cleared on the astral and lower mental planes.

A conscious explorer is a different kind of visitor in the afterlife. With sufficient training and experience such a visitor can experience a great deal of "mobility." Even if one holds some limiting beliefs one can reach many places and is not as constrained as a newly deceased spirit would be.

Swedenborg was such a visitor. He brought back information that was helpful in his time and age, and even today I sometimes see people refer to some of the images he brought back and reinterpret them in helpful ways.

So to me it is not an "either this or that" thing. I would personally see Swedenborg as more capable as you'd like to admit, at the same time I would also caution myself to see his limitations, stemming from the context he came from and his personal makeup of beliefs.

To me an explorer of consciousness does not become wrong and inaccurate by having said a thing I disagree with or that seems to be in error. That's just human. Similarly, verification in one specific aspect does not guarantee other information brought through by this person is correct. This would be an incorrect transference between areas I would see as distinct.

So, Swedenborg may have said some things we may disagree with now. I already showed that part of what he said makes sense to me, but that it requires interpretation. He may not have found the most accurate picture to represent it, he may not have described it in terms we would deem accurate, but I think his description of "marriage in heaven" does still contain enough truth to be worth interpreting.

Bob Monroe's first book is full of absurd inaccuracies ("when the Big One comes", a name set into the astral plane in enormous letters, and many other things), yet I still recognise and acknowledge the genius of that man. He helped trigger a major transformation in my life.

To me every afterlife explorer is essentially a clairvoyant. Some interpretation is always required. Often experiences are revisited years later and made sense of in a different way.

O wrote on Jan 25^th, 2013 at 8:22am:

I think this view on the Focus levels is too limited. Being a practicing Christian does not prevent one from experiencing higher planes of existence.

I think that's what happened to Swedenborg.

All those other Focus Levels which Monroe saw, were out of sight for
Swedenborg. The only other region Swedenborg saw in a Hollow Heaven
was that of Muslims, and even there Swedenborg had a colored view, as
he saw Muslims place "below" the Christians (who were closer to God).

So just by not being able to see any other BSTs, I would say that Swedenborg was
limited in his capabilities of travelling around in the nonphysical reality.

Swedenborg became sort of stuck to hundreds (thousands?) of descriptions
of "Christian" Hollow Heavens and Hells in his many books.

Why no African religions? Why no Buddhistic religions? Why only F 25?

Swedenborg clearly had problems seeing beyond Christianity.

One thing Swedenborg wrote that  I didn't like that relates to Pauli's thrown into hell comment, is Swedenborg's comment about a spirit being thrown into hell head first. The "head first" part sounds a bit harsh and judgmental. 

Well, I hesitate to bring this up because I don't really have an answer to it.  It's just that it bothers me and I'd like to know how others interpret it.

As some of you have noted, ES had said that the moon was inhabited I think by human like creatures.

So the question I am grappling with is this: what affect does that have, if any, on all of his other observations and experiences?

Is it something that can be dismissed or does it cast doubt on what he reported about his voluminous explorations?

One way of looking at it is this- Einstein is known for his E=MC squared equation.  But to come up with that conclusion required hundreds, maybe thousands, of other mathematical equations in order to document his famous finding.

Now, if any of those subsidiary equations were in error, other mathematicians would have challenged the ultimate outcome as being unsupported.

So....if ES was so obviously mistaken about something he wrote, not from his own speculation but from an other-worldly source, does that or does it not cast doubt, or at least a question, on all of the other things he reported which were also from other worldly sources?

At first it really didn't bother me, but I have to confess that the more I think about it, the more I have to wonder.

Thoughts?

Why are you doing this? Berserk already said he doesn't believe this stuff. Why focus on all this baloney?

wrote on Jan 28^th, 2013 at 12:19pm:

Why are you doing this? Berserk already said he doesn't believe this stuff. Why focus on all this baloney?

Looks like Pauli's ego has gotten the best of him.  ;D

wrote on Jan 28^th, 2013 at 12:19pm:

Why are you doing this? Berserk already said he doesn't believe this stuff.

No, Berserk has not.

Nothing so far.

Berserk has said nothing if you re-read his few posts in this thread. Besides vague
sentences, I can't find any explicit statement on _anything_ being wrong of
Swedenborg.

Just vague, vague...

---


Instead I've found things like this, praises to ES (Swedenborg) without
boundary and stabs at Monroe/Moen.

So...

Guess, what.

I began examining this fellow Swedenborg to figure out if _any_ of Berserk's
high praises held water, because Berserk had few specifics in his writings
on Swedenborg, just a lot of rather unclear words.

And what I found, I have too some part put in this thread.


Does that sound strange?

Perhaps you should take a look at Berserk's past posts? I will show you
a few quotes below, but I want to keep them short. You'll have to click
on the referring link to get to the full content.

Otherwise, no.

Berserk has answered nothing.

No answers.

---

If Berserk is right and Swedenborg is the best astral traveller ever and
all the other astral travellers are poor crap, then Swedenborg should
hold for a simple examination, shouldn't he?

So why is Berserk not answering any questions if Swedenborg is such
great explorer? After all, those are Berserk's claim.

---


Some quotes here - shortened though (click "Berserk wrote" below to get to the full posts):


Berserk wrote on Dec 27^th, 2006 at 2:41am:

But ES was the most gifted astral adept who ever lived.  Just read my reports of his awesome verifications.  He is universally considered a unique genius. Modern adepts like Robert Monroe are nowhere close to being in the same class.

Berserk wrote on Sep 13^th, 2005 at 3:58pm:

And it is simply dishonest for you to ignore the consistency and quality of ES's verifications that underpin his astral claims, especially when Moen and Monroe suffer so much by comparison.  Intuition is no substitute for logic.

Berserk wrote on Mar 8^th, 2007 at 6:23pm:

I suspect from my reading that neither Bruce Moen nor Robert Monroe has had much experience with ES's heavens. In my view, ES is more gifted and spiritually advanced than the modern adepts I have read. Perhaps, that is the reason why neither Monroe nor Moen experiences extensive teaching form Jesus or God.

Berserk wrote on Sep 13^th, 2005 at 1:24pm:

In my view, it is not a question of ES being better at contacting the dead than Monroe and Moen; it is a question of ES being able to do what Monroe and Moen can only pretend to do on a regular basis.  When Moen was unable to work, he gladly accepted the generous donations of site members. Why didn't he charge money for his services and contact deceased loved ones of site members. Because he can't do it and won't admit it! Don

Berserk wrote on Sep 14^th, 2005 at 1:09pm:

As for my criticisms of the Monroe-Moen claims, the cultic mentality of their followers is eloquently demonstrated by their inability to sense the absurdity...

These are a few posts of Berserk. There are more such trash-talks.


isee, do you get me?

If the shining castle turns to dust when I take a closer look at it,
isn't something wrong?

If Swedenborg is such a great guy, then why can't those question
marks be straightened out?

Pauli,

Most people have not responded to your thread, because you appear to be trying to start a fight and are not seriously considering the issues.  Honestly, your posts read like they were writte by a young kid with a chip on his shoulder. 

No one, not Don or anyone else would say that ES was not merely a man.  Therefore, to find flaws in his writing or idea of life on the moon, etc. might be relevant if he were omnipotent - but he was just a man.

However, for me, the vexing part of you entire thread is that it is clear that you don't take the time to read his works like Heaven and Hell in depth.  You have an agenda - to "disprove Swedenborg," and you cherry pick what you want without reading and trying to appreciate what he did in the 1700s.  I have read Heaven and Hell, and 2 other texts - they are not easy reading if you are interested, but they are enlightening.

So let us recap here:

1.  ES was a gifted intelligent person who had verifications just like many people do.  Others of his time took note of his verified communications (much like Monroe, Bruce, mediums and other explorers have had their own verifications).

2.  Your thread loses credibility when you don't read a book/text first (completely and with an open mind) and then cherry pick your responses claiming to discredit this man. 

3.  Your taunts to Don appear rather childish - while he can respond in kind, I doubt he will.  And I wouldn't want to see that kind of pissing contest, quite frankly.


Matthew

DocM wrote on Jan 28^th, 2013 at 2:36pm:

I have read Heaven and Hell, and 2 other texts. . .

DocM/Matthew, would you mind answering some of the questions posted
in this thread? Feel free to take your own approach on the answers.

Pauli,

I will answer your questions with the assumption that you really are interested in the answers.  I have my doubts, because your thread reads like someone who wants to pick a fight with Don, makes up his mind before learning the facts, and then throws out random information trying to cause a conflict.   

I will enumerate my responses to your questions:

1.  Swedenborg's concept of the Last Judgement was not what you suppose it to be.  So your ridiculing of him saying it happened in the 1700s shows you don't get it.  You imagine all of us being judged and given a Heaven or Hell pass.  Swedenborg did not. 
His book he Last Judgement  speaks against the concept of a divine judgment during some future rising of the dead. Instead, each individual after death, goes through a personal last judgment in the world of spirits. Pauli, this is a poetic rendering of a spiritual concept, not a true judgement by a God with a long flowing beard.  Read his Last Judgement, and you will understand why he thought it occurred in the 1750s (in spirit).  Your comment that this was cartoonish therefore simply demonstrates your lack of understanding of his analogies about a spiritual awakening. 

2.  Swedenborg's scientific discoveries.  You state you could not find any or his friend was responsible for most of them.  This is is just absurd.  Swedenborg was one of the most prolific scientists of his age.  His patents and discoveries were numerous.  He is credited for being one of the first people to propose the concept of the neuron as a functioning unit of the nervous system.  He undertook an extensive investigation into human anatomy, which rivaled, Davinci.  Many references site his achivements prior to his conversion to being a mystic.  So this assertion of yours was false.

3.  Pauli, many of your criticisms then focus on how Swedenborg would respond to concepts from Monroe and Moen (i.e. the Disc, reincarnation, soul retrievals).  Pauli, this assumes that the Monroe/Moen model is correct and the gold standard by which everything is judged.  This is ridiculous.  While I hold Bruce in high regard, and appreciate TMI, many mystics and astral travelers do not believe in Focus levels, hollow heavens or the Disc concept.  So to say Swedenborg can't explain it, is somewhat meaningless. 

4.  Swedenborg has many concepts which mesh nicely with New Age and modern theories of the afterlife and consciousness.  When you say he did not believe in a trinity - quite correct.  A division of God (a unity) did not make sense to him.  Many Christians see the trinity as three aspects of one God, not seperate beings.  Swedenborg was not accepted by dogmatic christians because of this. 

5.  The criticism of not describing life correctly in other solar systems, our planets, etc. means, .......what?  ES was a man.  He never claimed to be God himself.   He related all he could understand in writing. 

Pauli, you make assumptions - that ES believed he was infallible (he never said that), that he knew everything, etc.  He was actually a humble, incredibly enlightened guy for the 1700s. 

Read Heaven and Hell, and then let's talk.  His interpretation of the spirit, spirituality, and his knowledge are truly inspiring.  I am not a christian, yet I love his explanations of our inner nature and his interpretations on love as the foundation of our being and unity. 

So you see this entire thread is based on faulty assumptions and really a desire on your part to pick a fight with Don.   I appreciate ES for who he was, but acknowledge that he was a man, who did his best to interpret his experiences, document them in great detail and share them with the world.

M

DocM wrote on Jan 29^th, 2013 at 12:57am:

I am not a christian. . .

Your answers are partly unclear. We need some common ground as Swedenborg's
books to 99.98 % are based on Christianity. Much of the knowledge Swedenborg
got during his astral travels came from the Christian god (or from Christian angels).

Also, I want to know if you've answered anything. I'll simplify my questions.
Do you believe:

(A) The Last Judgement happened in the year 1757? Yes or No.
(B) The Second Coming of Christ is God's Words through ES's writtings? Yes or No.
(C) Do you deny Trinity? Yes or No?



DocM wrote on Jan 29^th, 2013 at 12:57am:

Swedenborg was one of the most prolific scientists of his age.  His patents and discoveries were numerous.

Mention one patent.

Mention one of Swedenborg's patents.

Pauli, here is my understanding of the answers found in his writings to your questions.

Although Swedenborg's theology was based in christianity, he summed up two main ways to express love as he understood it; love of one's fellow man, and love of God.  He saw God not as a trinity in reality, but as an ineffable flow of this love.  You either allowed the love to manifest in your thoughts and actions, or you chose to block it, or go the other way.

As to your questions:

1.  ES believed the last judgement occurred in the year 1757 - that this was done in the spiritual plane, and was not the hokey idea you have in mind taught by some churches.  However, he freely admitted that his interpretation did not fit with most ideas about it.  He felt that as people turned toward love, this would be the second coming of Christ (Christ being the embodiment of love).  All of this was meant to be seen not as a literal judgement by a guy with a long flowing beard. 

You may want to read his two small books about the last judgement - I think they are less than 100 pages. 

2.  He felt that the understanding he achieved about love was the real second coming of Christ.  Not so much a figure of a man floating down to Times Square as you might imagine.  Since Christ's message was love of other people and God, ES felt that his second coming would be the realization of this through his writings and direct experience.  Was that a bit self-important?  Perhaps.  But he was sincere.

3.  Do I deny the trinity?  Not sure why you ask me - since I'm Jewish, and believe in the unity of all things, I don't believe in such things.  However, ES, while he believed in the teaching's of Christ, also believed that the artificial separation of God into father/son and holy  ghost was not "real" and more like three blind men examining an elephant's trunk, ear, and stomach. 

As to his inventions, I can quote you from a biography  on ES:

"Queen Ulrika Eleonora and their surname changed to Swedenborg. Emanuel's scientific inventions include a dry dock of new design, a machine for working salt springs and a system for moving large boats overland.

In the field of biology, Swedenborg stressed on the importance of cerebral cortex. Apart from these, he drew feasible sketches of futuristic machines, including an airplane, a submarine, a steam engine, an air gun and a slow-combustion stove. Emanuel Swedenborg was offered the position of a professor in mathematics at Uppsala University, in 1724. However, he declined the offer, because he dealt with geometry, chemistry and metallurgy mainly, not maths."

Pauli, the information is out there, just explore on your own.  What beef do you have with Don that makes you try so hard to disparage ES?  Your misunderstanding about the last judgement and trinity is understandable because you didn't get the gist of his spirituality. 

What comes through loud and clear is that you have a beef with Don or something he wrote and not so much this fascinating explorer from the 1700s.

M

DocM wrote on Jan 29^th, 2013 at 8:43am:

As to his inventions, I can quote you from a biography on ES: "Queen Ulrika Eleonora and their surname changed to Swedenborg. Emanuel's scientific inventions include a dry dock of new design, a machine for working salt springs and a system for moving large boats overland.

Those things were not scientific inventions, but engineer constructions of Christopher Polhem.

Could that biography have been influenced by The New Church?

Swedish children can read about Christopher Polhem in there school books.
Nowhere in Swedish school books is Swedenborg mentioned, so I doubt
Swedenborg was much of a "great scientist" or "great inventor".

And you still couldn't mention one single patent of Swedenborg.

Pauli,

Your response is bizarre.  I am not familiar with the patent office in Sweden from the 1700s, but I have cited his extensive work on neurons, human anatomy, and other inventions - the specifics can be found in any reputable biography of ES.  You will find reams of information about him and it makes your criticism of his achievements appear bizarre.  Your statement that Polhem was truly responsible for all of ES's works is totally unsupported, yet you repeat it frequently. 

It is clear that ES was an interesting, intelligent and gifted man well ahead of his time both in a practical sense and in a spiritual sense.  In a way, your responses are similar to deniers of many factual events like the holocaust, 9/11, etc. in that even after admitting that ES made these anatomic investigations, mechanical inventions (which the history books have recorded), and was renown throughout the western world for his accomplishments and offered positions of teaching, etc., you have disparaged him without any real knowledge about him (since you refuse to read an in depth history or his actual writings). 

The other unusual part of your thread - and a reason I believe you should voluntarily remove it, is that it serves no useful purpose.  Several posters, including Don have mentioned that they find one or another issue mentioned by ES with which they can either find fault or disagree.  So no one is saying he is God-incarnate.  In that sense, you have a thread entitled "Swedenborg Flaws," that really is simply saying nothing new. 

M

DocM, you have mentioned several times that Swedenborg was an inventor
and made patents.

Maybe it's Berserk who has tricked you into believing that? When I urged you
to mention one patent of Swedenborg, it was because I knew something.



DocM wrote on Jan 29^th, 2013 at 12:57am:

This is is just absurd.  Swedenborg was one of the most prolific scientists of his age. His patents and discoveries were numerous.

Swedenborg never made any patent.

Pauli,

You clearly have no sense of ES, or his accomplishements.  I don't have access to Swedish patents from the 1700s - I am not even sure for which inventions patents were required.  He was widely regarded for his published works at the time.  As I said, read a book man, and get some first-hand knowledge.  I know from my readings that he was a prolific scientist and inventor.  He published an anatomical text on the human cerebrum (brain), including detailed drawings and insights into the brand new concept of the neuron as an organizing cell and detailed drawings and descriptions of the exocrine glands long before Gray's Anatomy was made.  I suppose that is not worthy of note in the 1700s (ridiculous, right).  His research and accomplishements in multiple fields are clear-cut.  Could one look up patents from the 1700s?  Perhaps - not my cup of tea.  But open your eyes, and stop disparaging him just to suit your twisted agenda with Berserk.

M

Yes, I do get you. However, I also have to consider whether I would want someone to dredge up some of the inconsiderate things I have said or done in the past and post them in this way for everyone to look at. I cringe at the thought of going into an afterlife in which people do such things as drag everybody's mistakes in front of others to expose or punish them. I really don't want to do that here and I really don't want to do that there. Sometimes people keep repeating things they believe and that's just who they are. We can rise above. At least, I think we can. I've been learning some things on this thread. I think.

People have always disagreed about history and the "truth" forever. And people do destroy evidence of the "truth" to suit an agenda sometimes. For me, the message is, don't believe everything you read. That's what my parents always told me.


PauliEffectt wrote on Jan 28^th, 2013 at 1:44pm:

wrote on Jan 28th, 2013 at 12:19pm: Why are you doing this? Berserk already said he doesn't believe this stuff. No, Berserk has not. Nothing so far. Berserk has said nothing if you re-read his few posts in this thread. Besides vague sentences, I can't find any explicit statement on _anything_ being wrong of Swedenborg. Just vague, vague... --- Instead I've found things like this, praises to ES (Swedenborg) without boundary and stabs at Monroe/Moen. So... Guess, what. I began examining this fellow Swedenborg to figure out if _any_ of Berserk's high praises held water, because Berserk had few specifics in his writings on Swedenborg, just a lot of rather unclear words. And what I found, I have too some part put in this thread. Does that sound strange? Perhaps you should take a look at Berserk's past posts? I will show you a few quotes below, but I want to keep them short. You'll have to click on the referring link to get to the full content. Otherwise, no. Berserk has answered nothing. No answers. --- If Berserk is right and Swedenborg is the best astral traveller ever and all the other astral travellers are poor crap, then Swedenborg should hold for a simple examination, shouldn't he? So why is Berserk not answering any questions if Swedenborg is such great explorer? After all, those are Berserk's claim. --- Some quotes here - shortened though (click "Berserk wrote" below to get to the full posts): Berserk wrote on Dec 27th, 2006 at 2:41am: But ES was the most gifted astral adept who ever lived.  Just read my reports of his awesome verifications.  He is universally considered a unique genius. Modern adepts like Robert Monroe are nowhere close to being in the same class. Berserk wrote on Sep 13th, 2005 at 3:58pm: And it is simply dishonest for you to ignore the consistency and quality of ES's verifications that underpin his astral claims, especially when Moen and Monroe suffer so much by comparison.  Intuition is no substitute for logic. Berserk wrote on Mar 8th, 2007 at 6:23pm: I suspect from my reading that neither Bruce Moen nor Robert Monroe has had much experience with ES's heavens. In my view, ES is more gifted and spiritually advanced than the modern adepts I have read. Perhaps, that is the reason why neither Monroe nor Moen experiences extensive teaching form Jesus or God. Berserk wrote on Sep 13th, 2005 at 1:24pm: In my view, it is not a question of ES being better at contacting the dead than Monroe and Moen; it is a question of ES being able to do what Monroe and Moen can only pretend to do on a regular basis.  When Moen was unable to work, he gladly accepted the generous donations of site members. Why didn't he charge money for his services and contact deceased loved ones of site members. Because he can't do it and won't admit it! Don Berserk wrote on Sep 14th, 2005 at 1:09pm: As for my criticisms of the Monroe-Moen claims, the cultic mentality of their followers is eloquently demonstrated by their inability to sense the absurdity... These are a few posts of Berserk. There are more such trash-talks. isee, do you get me? If the shining castle turns to dust when I take a closer look at it, isn't something wrong? If Swedenborg is such a great guy, then why can't those question marks be straightened out?

Pauli-

Doc is right, you have a vendetta going against Don.  And it's beyond tedious.  I think you should devote your time sending PUL to aliens. 

And since you cherry picked Don's old posts, going all the way back to 2005, let's see how you like it when the tables are turned?

In May of 2011 you suggested that the CIA removed all the passengers of the plane that crashed into the Pentagon on 9/11 and put them into cold storage.  And then the CIA either transferred them into a morgue or stuffed them into the Pentagon to make it look like a plane really did crash into the building.

This kind of thinking reflects a mind that is clearly delusional and unhinged.  You apparently have never been to the Pentagon and have no clue about the heavily trafficked divided highway adjacent to the Pentagon that carries thousands of commuters each and every day.

So those people who saw the plane heading into the Pentagon that morning are either lying or perhaps were paid off by the CIA?  And the first responders who pulled out the charred bodies were also lying when they described the carnage?

You clearly need help Pauli.  Your connection with reality is severed and explains these kind of repugnant posts.

R

Pauli-

So for the CIA to have pulled this off, it means one of two scenarios:

Either the CIA intercepted all of the passengers while on their way to Dulles from all over the DC region, and dragged them out of their cars or the Metro or a cab and put them into vehicles with no one noticing during a normal DC rush hour, OR once the passengers boarded, the CIA stormed into the plane before takeoff and somehow herded them out of the plane (again with no one noticing) and put them into cold storage.

And then within an incredibly short time frame, the CIA was able to transport their bodies after killing them and "stuff" their bodies into the Pentagon with no one noticing??  Do you even have a scintilla of insight as to how insane this is?

And you want me to go on a separate thread to discuss this further??

I'm done with you and I hope others are done also.  I won't dignify this grotesque nonsense any longer.   

R

I'll answer you both below.


rondele wrote on Jan 29^th, 2013 at 2:13pm:

And since you cherry picked Don's old posts, going all the way back to 2005. . .

wrote on Jan 29^th, 2013 at 1:06pm:

. . .whether I would want someone to dredge up some of the inconsiderate things I have said or done in the past and post them. . .

Rondele and isee, it is Berserk2 who has urged me to go back and read his
old posts. He made no reservation to his posts, and urged me to go read
from the start of his Swedenborg-Astral-Projection-Father thread.

But go pick his post from 2008 or 2010, or perhaps from this month:



Berserk2 wrote on Jan 18^th, 2013 at 4:28pm:

Oh, and Pauli, actually suspend your bias for a half hour and actually read through this whole thread.  You'll realize that ES is far brighter than any modern adepts. . . Robert Monroe's alleged OBE verifications pale by comparision. . .

Berserk2 wrote on Jan 18^th, 2013 at 10:35pm:

Here's a thought, Paulie. . ...read the Swedenborg thread to discover just how brilliant the man was, despite his flaws.

And, well...

I read through that thread.

I can inform you, it took more than half an hour.

Oh, I think that crazy train has already left the station....hey, stop this train, I want to get off (she laughs and makes a flying leap for it)

For my money the statements: 'Swedenborg was a genius' and 'Swedenborg was not infallible' are not mutually exclusive. No self-respecting modern physicist would argue that since Einstein was an acknowledged genius his work cannot be improved upon. I don't see the problem here. However, I do find it find it slightly strange  when big statements are made about Swedenborg's superior verifications when there is no objective rationale for deciding (who decides that Swedenborg's famous fire clairvoyance 'trumps' say Monroe's fabulous card prediction in paranormality!? ) Surely its not about pontificating about what someone else thinks/thought, but, as Bruce Moen has always maintained exploring for one's self; getting one's own verification.

One advantage, though, I think that modern 'adepts' enjoy over historical figures is that we can question them or people with first-hand experience of them. For example when I wanted to know more about the Scole events I was able to ask Rupert Sheldrake about his impression of the session he attended - not something we can do with Swedenborg or his contempories !

In Swedenborg's The Last Judgment, he concludes from his astral travels:

- Heaven and Hell are created by humans.
- There is no Devil or Satan personified, Hell is Satan/Devil.
- Angels are former humans.
- Hell is inhabited by Angels and humans, as is Heaven.

- Priests of the Christian church are corrupt, worshipping gods
  of gold, silver and copper.
- The priests of Rome falsify God's Word.
- The priests of Rome have made gods of themselves.

- The priests of Rome extinguish the light of Heaven.
- The priests of Rome arrange inquisition.
- The priests of Rome create idols; saints.
- The priests of Rome encourage prayers to those saints.

- The priests of Rome collect treasures; live in luxury.
- The priests of Rome have taken away God's Word from the people.
- The Christian church is evil.
- Priests in the spiritual world hold common (dead) people in blind obedience.

- Popes or cardinals from Earth are either thrown into deserts or
  continue to deceive common people in the spiritual world.
- All those who on Earth sought to be worshipped as deities, are in hell.
- Also in the spiritual world, many priests claim divinity for themselves
  and collect treasures, as the spiritual world has many such riches too.

- God dissolved the Christian church in the year 1757.
- God made the Last Judgement in year 1757.
- Evil people were thrown into Hell, good people went to Heaven.
- Many pagans & Muslims were allowed into Heaven.
- God wants to start a New Church, replacing the old, evil and corrupt church.

- Those in Hell will have to endure their stay there for eternity.
- Strangely enough, some of those thrown into Hell, just laughs at it.


Having read most of Swedenborg's Last Judgment it is a little unclear
to me, how he figured all this out. Swedenborg describes some exact
details, but much in a storytelling way.

Though ES saw various large groups with people being hoarded together,
either for being sent to some Heavenly region or thrown into Hells,
his descriptions are sort of sketchy. The Hells came in earthly
forms; gulfs, sea of black waters, marshes, deserts.

But I have to say that Swedenborg's description of the Christian spiritual
world resembles the PUL-less Hollow Heavens in Focus 25.

Finally, it seems to me that The Last Judgment is as much about making a blow
against the Catholic church, as God doing a final judgement on good & evil souls,
of that time.

This also means that The Last Judgment, is not the _last_ judgement, more
such judgements are to come for all those Christians still living in the physical
world...

in fact, Swedenborg claimed that The Last Judgment in 1757 was actually God's
third "Last Judgement"... (the Flood being the first)