The horrific act of violence in Connecticut strikes me as the worst thing possible in the physical world.  I know the children will be taken care of by the system in place (at least I believe it to be true).  Yet I was surprised to one posted here on it or the implications.  For those of us who do retrievals, it seems that a mass attempt to communicate and help them to guides is in order.

No one was meant to be cut down like this.  I know, just as in a tsunami or hurricane, that energetic forces and the actions of others are unpredictable.  But the way in which these deaths occurred, the trauma was extreme. 

My heart is broken.  If any are interested in this board, it is a time for action.


Matthew

On another forum someone posed the question if it is a gun problem or a heart problem.
I replied that to my gut feeling it is a heart problem. Because if you have a good heart you don't buy a gun in the first place.

It's terrible for what happened to those children and the emptiness it leaves behind with their parents. And for the teachers and school psycholog as well of course. And for those that they left behind.

I am glad gun control is way more restricted in my country. But it can happen here too. We had a shootout some time ago in Alphen a/d Rijn in a shopping mall. I do believe it is waving over from the US.

This is a non-issue for me, Mogen; that is, there is no reason a citizen should own a gun that can fire off hundreds of rounds of ammunition.  Not sure why we need to own guns anyway but I am open to do it with strict laws tracking of control, and locked boxes that are inspected so kids can't get at them.  And laws should be enacted.  In countries without guns, mass shootings are less common - Crazy people can come into a room with a knife or weapon or get one illegally, but it should be restricted. 

I am trying to see if any on this board want to try to make contact with these poor kids.


Matthew

I share the horror that many feel about this tragic outcome. However, I have tried to draw myself away, emotionally, so that I don't become too enmeshed in the situation, which I feel isn't healthy. Too often, we are exposed through our news outlets for prolonged periods of time to terrible circumstances for which no one is prepared.

I tried briefly to "take a peek" on Saturday. The only impression I got was of children together. That, my feeling, was that the children are all still together, being led away to safety in a group. I have nothing else to offer right now, as it is only a fleeting impression. I can only touch this subject gingerly, as it is a very difficult one.

Doc,
I asked the same question on another board, and have not heard an answer. Why, I wonder. I am certainly trying.

There is a seperate sphere for children in the afterlife. If you are interested you can read about it here.

Hello,

I tried going to them today about noon and saw only about five--six of them left. I couldn’t make contact with them though and will rethink  this and try later.

It might be that these few are feeding each others’ fears and that their classmates who do not show up were already able to move on. I’m thinking a good strategy might be to try to distract one or two individually to get them away from the group feeling they’ve built up. Then the energies of the one or two can be changed more effectively so that the retrieval can progress.  We’ll see.

Bets

betson

so do you beleive some people can get stuck after death? You say b4 you or others take care of departed when you are asleep. so why not check on the children while you are asleep?



M

I think there's a continuing misunderstanding about retrievals.

As Bruce has said, only a minority of deceased are in need of a retrieval.  Most aren't.

And certainly when it comes to the children who were killed, to assume they are wandering around distraught with no idea where they are or what happened, is highly improbable.

Plenty of helpers are there to help, especially for young kids who would have arrived totally disoriented and fearful.

R

rondele wrote on Dec 17^th, 2012 at 8:12pm:

I think there's a continuing misunderstanding about retrievals. As Bruce has said, only a minority of deceased are in need of a retrieval.  Most aren't. And certainly when it comes to the children who were killed, to assume they are wandering around distraught with no idea where they are or what happened, is highly improbable. Plenty of helpers are there to help, especially for young kids who would have arrived totally disoriented and fearful. R

Oh! WoW!! Just another pathetic statement from a Bruce Moen Groupie amd Clone! The opposite is the truth. Harvey. PS. If Bruce Moens "Imagination" method is so 'exact' and true, then why did he and others using his system, miss the 2004 Indonesian Earthquake and Tsunami , plus the 2011 Japanese Earthquake and Tsunami??? After all, all they have to do is to 'imagine' they are in the Akashic Records, or Hall of Records, or Grand Library! And tell us about future natural disasters? ...Give me a break, Woman! Harvey. A wise man once said. "You can't con a con!"    

I agree with you Rondele.

   The children would still have a strong connection to the other side and would probably be connected up with any associated relatives or friends that were still maintaining their location from where they started at. They will probably try to decide whether or nor to stay dis incarnate for quite awhile after all this evil is resolved in the world before attempting another entry.

Ralph

USA is a very rich country, where few children have to die from famine.
Worldwide, several millions of children die from starvation and illness,
each year.

If you have the time to do a retrieval, keep an open mind for all those
children from other countries as well.

A lot of people have NDEs without needing to be retrieved.

In one his books Robert Monroe wrote (I think "Ultimate Journey") that he was told that most people don't need retrievals.

I had some experiences that seemed to make the point that most people don't need retrievals.

The other misconception about retrievals is that we can choose who we want to retrieve.

For instance, the children killed last Friday in CT.

Maybe in some cases we can choose, but when we set out to retrieve, we are much better off in terms of serving others by asking a Helper to guide us to someone who is most in need rather than specific individuals who most likely are not stuck and are already being taken care of.

In this regard Pauli makes a very good point.

R

These are all such good, comforting and helpful points. I don't know the "whole story" and don't claim to have "the truth" about anything, but what you all have said makes sense to me.

The universe, whatever it is in its wholeness, does not seem to react agreeably to demands put on it. Rather, it seems to form a relationship with us, through our life experiences and the occasional "surprise" which may just be something simple in our ordinary lives -- only we notice.

So, it's not impersonal, as we are often taught. But, just because we have a reaction to something doesn't mean that we must have our answer in the way we anticipate, in the way which we expect, or even think we "need" so very much.

Very wise post, isee.  Reminds me of an old book my dad had, called "Let Go and Let God."

R

The Bible does not merely teach that God honors our free will to do good or evil; it also teaches that we are all victims of the forces of chaos--that God sets in motion the laws of nature and does not micro-manage these laws.  From this biblical perspective, the Newtown massacre poses no philosophical problem. 

But a problem arises from miracles that result from faith in crisis and correctly offered petitionary prayer.   Do these "miracles" satisfy some poorly understood spirtual principles, conditions not met by the parents of the slain children?  Even posing such a question strikes me as offensive.  For example, I would be intrigued by the answer to the following question, but would be disgusted if any researcher tried to pose it to the grieving parents: How many parents of the slain and surviving children prayed for their safety and protection that  day?  How long were these prayers?  What assumptions determined the quality of these prayers and the attendant expectations?  The fact is, we are far too emotionally engaged with such senseless tragedies to even ask many key questions.

When I was a pastor in Buffalo, we held a weekly prayer meeting at our chruch.  One day, I received a certain premonition that someone in the group and their family were in danger of grievous harm.  Unlike other such premonitions, this one did not include the source of the harm or the specific people it threatened.  So what did I do?  Almost every week, our small group (4-6) closed with a prayer circle: we  held hands and I closed by praying for protection for them and their families for the coming week.  They probably thought that I did the same thing in every prayer group that I led, but that assumption was false.  I have never done it before or since. 

Eventually, I moved on and left that church, ultimately pastoring a church across the country in Washington state.  Before I left Buffalo, I heard that the new pastor had cancelled that prayer group.  I at once shuddered and thought, "Now the evil suppressed by our prayer gruop will happen!"  This insistent thought was unwanted; it was horribly present and certain.  I tried to suppress as the product of my paranoia.  Shortly thereafter, Eleanor's son (Nick) hung himself in his mother's garage, distraught over a failed marriage.  Not long after that, Eleanor was killed in a fiery car wreck.  "So she was the praye group member in danger?"  I thought.  She never missed the group even in those times when only 3 or 4 showed up. 

I found out later that their liviing room antique clock had stopped 3 times: at the time of Nick's death, a tthe time4 of Eleanor's death, , and (many years earlier) at the time of her husband's death.  Also, I learned from Eleanor's sister that Eleanor had had a "take-away dream" the night before her death.  Her late husband had descended the stairs of their home and said, "Come on up, honey,  and dance with me."  He then identified the late family members who were present at the dance.  Eleanor used to love dancing with her husband, but she took this as a symbol of death, and declined the creepy invitation. 

Surely this whole macabre experience has important  implications for tragedies like the Newtown child massacre.  But I am reluctant to try to idenitfy them because doing so would arrogantly presume lessons for all such mass tragedies.  The only lesson I confidently draw is that prayers for protection can be effective; so if you feel so moved to pray, it is important that you do so. 

Don

The Bible is a joke.

Pauli,

Really?  What do you get from disparaging the bible?  Even if you do not believe in it, the Bible was written by men, to try to interpret the word of God.  It is best interpreted in that light.  If our consciousness does survive physical death, then the thoughts and beliefs matter, as do lessons learned. 

Some stories and parables in the Bible are meant to teach through allegory and example.  Other laws handed down by men (stoning sinners, etc.) are best interpreted as an outdated law forged in a wild time, which we no longer need. 

One takes from the Bible what one wants (or not) much like the rest of life.  But calling it "a joke," does nothing to address Don's comments about the use of prayer (thought coupled to intent), as proactive means of protection against tragedies.

Don, I personally have found that prayer does make a difference by changing probabilities in the physcial world.  Still, probabilities are in flux, and unpredictable.  Could a change in probable outcomes have caused this gunman to pick a different classroom?  To kill himself prior to someone else being killed?

It is hard to say.  And the idea that the parents would have to say a prayer of protection on a daily basis seems perhaps illusory and missing the mark.  When 200,000 people were swept away by a tsunami, or the bomb dropped on Hiroshima, with a huge number of casualties, I think it is clear that these were unpredictable events, that were huge energetic shifts in the physical plane.

What is best for spiritual growth?  I humbly say that I don't know.  I (and many others) feel that there is something special about being "alive," that physical life is a gift.  We cling to it with a tenacity beyond measure.  But is the transition to the afterlife something to be avoided so strongly?  Are there some afterlife scenarios that are more challenging and more pleasant than physical life?  This remains unanswered.

I feel that if there is more for us to accomplish here, in the physical world - a personal goal or achievement - that is important.  Or if we are here to protect another or with a mission to create something, anything that is important to us. 

Still Don, your post makes one think, and consider the place of thought coupled with conviction in terms of helping to shape the outcome of our lives.


Matthew

It occurred to me today that it is important to remember that "the gunman" and his mother and their entire family and all those who knew them -- all are in some way victims.

Before this happened, this "gunman" was just a child who was a little "different" -- however, he was taught to use guns, and encouraged to use guns for target practice as a "hobby". Many people have commented that he was autistic, unable to feel physical pain, extremely intelligent, socially reserved, etc. His family had been through a breakup recently and his mother was planning a move. None of these facts, if indeed they are facts, explains or excuses his actions, but it is clear that many factors contributed to his instability. We will never know how they all worked together.

But, he was trained to kill, not only by video games, but by family members who took open pleasure in target practice. Whatever you think about guns, things happen. We don't know how he was augmenting his thoughts or feelings by what he was looking at on computers. We may never know.

We have to think about a society which gives mixed messages about what personal strength is -- that might makes right. Whoever has the larger force wins. Whether we like it or not, those are the "rules" we teach each other in this world.

We can talk about love and what ifs all we want but there's no escaping the fact that focusing on one "gunman" and his actions, or guns themselves, or a profile of a "type" of mass killer -- in no way addresses our ambivalence toward violence, our love-hate relationship with excitement, power and control.

But, thinking about this young man and his mother, his poor brother who was initially falsely named by the press, I have to say that there are many victims, not just the children who were killed.

This young man was robbed of a "normal" life by whatever circumstances that led to his terrible decision. We just don't know.

So, for whatever it's worth, I hope he finds his way as well, in the afterlife, wherever he is.

I think people will change their attitude towards killing if they accept the knowledge of the masters of light.
They say that you irreversibly attune yourself to a sphere of darkness if you kill somebody.
And because you interfere with the plan of God by taking someone's physical life away you have to make up for that. Usually that means you will have to give that person a physical life back. That means that in a next life you will be the mother of the one you killed.
If that person has already completed it's cycle on Earth then Mother Earth will find another way to even up the score. Because you don't get away with it for nothing. The scale must be balanced.

Before I knew that I was able to kill, like in a war situation. After I read those books I was no longer able to do that anymore. I don't want that on my plate. That's not what I am looking for.

The Bible is filled with stupidity. Retrievals are degraded to the Devil.

The Bible is filled with stupidity. Retrievals are degraded to the Devil.[/quote]


Pauli, despite your bibilcal illiteracy, you are willing to pontificate on subjects about which you are uneducated.  In fact, early Christianity, including the Bible, provides the first literary evidence for a belief in soul retrievals. 

Matthew, in the experience I describe, I am confident that Eleanor and her son, Nick, would still be alive if our protective group prayers had continued.  My premonition in that case was the latest in a series of premonitions that never failed to come true.  In the Oklahoma City bombing, family members prayed for the safety of children scheduled to be present in the Murrah federal building, and amazing coincidences conspired to kepp them safe.  We have no record of large numbers of people praying for the safety of others in the building, who were nevertheless killed in the blast.  I'm just saying that we need more than prejudicial preconpetions to address the question of who is and is not protected through prqyer.  But I'm convinced that our prayer group's prayers for family safety keep us all safe as long as the prayer group met and prayed for protection.  So such prqyers seem a good idea.  What I don't know are the implications of this whole experience, with its many paranormal elements, for mass murders in general.  But I'm confident that there is admittedly unknown wisdom on this issue that might prove helpful. 

Don

Hi Mandy,

My apologies for missing your question earlier.  Yes, retrievals are done from sleep or from meditative states when busy daily thoughts can be silenced. People find a way that fits their lifestyle, a quiet rested time when they won’t be interrupted by the outside world. And when the intent to retrieve is set frequently, the retrieval can take off on its own.

In regard to others' comments, retrievals would certainly never replace prayer. To some extent retrievals are related to prayers since both attempt to make better conditions for some part of humanity.

Traumatized persons more frequently need help moving on but even Helpers can’t break through the chaos of some trauma memories. Human retrievers have an energy pattern that is able to get closer to the trauma and break their fixation on it so they can be passed to a full Helper. That’s why human retrieving seemed needed in the CT tragedy.

Betson

rondele wrote on Dec 17^th, 2012 at 8:12pm:

I think there's a continuing misunderstanding about retrievals. As Bruce has said, only a minority of deceased are in need of a retrieval.  Most aren't. And certainly when it comes to the children who were killed, to assume they are wandering around distraught with no idea where they are or what happened, is highly improbable. Plenty of helpers are there to help, especially for young kids who would have arrived totally disoriented and fearful. R

I may as well chime in my 2 cents.  I agree with you.  And for those of us trying so hard to perform a retrieval but aren't feeling, seeing, or getting anything, then it's always good to just step back from exhautive efforts and just feel and send love, prayers, and loving thoughts.  That kind of energy and intention does work whether we feel, see, or know the results.  Always. 

I think another misconception about Retrievals is the need for the person attempting to do one to have some immediate result, experience, or amazing proof.  And that's ironic isn't it?  The whole point of helping is to have faith and trust in your intention, whether or not you obtain proof or results in some way that makes you believe it worked.  I believe the work is being done simply with love and intention, and we here in the physical contribute to that effort with our thoughts and emotions. 

Like you said in another post, asking to be guided to someone in need of retrieval is the way to do it.  I think it will give the kind of results people want to see.  I feel so bad over this tragedy in CT and have cried several times.  I know for myself that when I'm this emotionally connected or upset over something or someone, then it's nearly impossible for me to just demand an experience to come my way regarding that person, whether it's retrieval, contact, dream, OBE, etc.  That's why when doing Retrieval work, you can have easier, more immediate results, experience, or "proof" by asking a Helper to guide you.  You're more open to a broader range of experience instead of focusing on what you want to have happen. 

wrote on Dec 18^th, 2012 at 4:42pm:

These are all such good, comforting and helpful points. I don't know the "whole story" and don't claim to have "the truth" about anything, but what you all have said makes sense to me. The universe, whatever it is in its wholeness, does not seem to react agreeably to demands put on it. Rather, it seems to form a relationship with us, through our life experiences and the occasional "surprise" which may just be something simple in our ordinary lives -- only we notice. So, it's not impersonal, as we are often taught. But, just because we have a reaction to something doesn't mean that we must have our answer in the way we anticipate, in the way which we expect, or even think we "need" so very much.

Great post Isee, I agree.    :)

DocM,

"One takes from the Bible what one wants (or not) much like the rest of life.  But calling it "a joke," does nothing to address Don's comments about the use of prayer (thought coupled to intent), as proactive means of protection against tragedies."

Prayer is, wikipedia says, an invocation or act that seeks to activate a rapport with a deity, an object of worship, or a spiritual entity through deliberate communication. "Entity, please protect us". Can this prevent harm? No joke there, or, maybe a joke is that the jesus character forgot about the power of prayer on the way to being crucified, and thus paved way for an epic IOY?

Don,

As another biblical illiterate; on the same list as you shall not kill, as discussed in this thread, I also eye one about not coveting someone's au pair, or anything that is your neighbour's - ox, donkey, faith, and so on. I wonder if neighbor means an actual physical neighbour? Can one move down a block or to another area if the neighbour is of the inconvenient sort?

You don't need the Bible.

Bob,

Seriously?  Wikipedia as a gold standard?  Ah, well.  To each his own. 

My personal definition of prayer is different.  I believe successful prayer is based on the combination of thought with intent and thankfulness. I don't believe in a separate relationship for petitioner and  a distant anthropomorphic deity.  Prayer is not a mere "request," or pleading.  Prayer (to me) is an active process whereby the petitioner/person harnesses their own creative power of intent, and hitches it on to the cosmic force of God which is within each of us.  I don't therefore see a separation, more a getting in touch with the coupling of thought with intent without being confounded with other fleeting thoughts/intentions.   

Of course others may see it differently, as is there right.  My idea of what constitutes prayer is an active process where we have a role, and not a passive supplicant. 

Matthew

When I have preached about the biblical and early Christian grounds for soul retrievals, most of my audiences have been thrilled at the thought.  One of the most memorable profound statements about this topic is C. S. Lewis's pithy assertion: "The gates of Hell are locked from the inside."  In the early 2nd century, Christian contemplation of heaven included a recognition that Heaven could not be enjoyed as Heaven by loving people who knew that souls they loved were absent.  The Bible makes it clear that the righteous are well aware of the fate of those who have not "made it."  It is axiomatic that if I love my neighbor as myself, there can be no question of pursuing any "career" in a Heaven, oblivious to the possibility of retrieving others to enjoy the  same bliss, challenges, and opportunities.  True, the doctrine of retrievals eventually gave way to a fear-mongering attempt to pressure the unchurched into escaping damnation through conversion.  But the earliest impulses of Christian beliefs were glorious, positive, and inclusive. 

What prevents me from achieving satisfaction about retrievals and NDEs is this: The discarnate souls encountered tend to lack a sense of their unique spark and spunk.  Their responses too often seem uninformative and minimal, except for enveloping the astral traveler in loving reassurance.  Colton Burpo's detailed discussion of verifiable information with his deceased grandfather is too rare for my liking.  And I am haunted by the lack of expected unmistakable verification details from the allegedly retrieved.  Belief in the possibility of retrievals is not the same as belief in the veracity of particular retrieval claims.  Still, I long for breakthrough methods because the stakes are so high.

Don

Believing in the Bible will get you stuck in Focus 25.

I just learned from the news that the NRA held a press conference and said the solution to them for preventing such killing in a school would be to place armed guards in every school.
Next they want armed guards in every hospital, then at every gas station and finally an armed guard in front of every home in the USA.

If the mother of the boy who committed the killing had not bought her guns the killing would not have happened in the first place. But that is an unconveniant insight to the NRA. The only direction they can think in is: more guns.

I am so glad to live in the Netherlands. This kind of stupidity is really impossible overhere.

I am glad that you live in the Netherlands too.

Bardo wrote on Dec 22^nd, 2012 at 9:26am:

I am glad that you live in the Netherlands too.

I could hardly have it any better here. The Netherlands is one of the richest countries in Europe.

But Mogenbleu, don't you get tired of having to walk around in thiose wooden shoes?  And what about all he times you are called on to put your finger in your dikes that are ever on the brink of bursting?  :-)

Don

No I don't. Wooden shoes keep you afloat when the dikes burst through. It's a safety precaution. We're not dumm!
As for the other part, I'll be blunt and dead honest: I'm male, I like to stick things into other things....  ;D


Mogy