Hello everyone, This is my first post. Where do Suicides go? She was someone I knew and cared about many many years ago. She had a rough life. She was bi-polar and found by her mother at her home. They listed it as a OD, but I know the difference. She was hard to find, even though we grew up in the same small city. She died in 2007. But I did find her through the internet.  I found this out this January. It is what lead me to Bruce Moens books a few months ago.

Do you mean where suicides go in the afterlife?
If you are willing to accept the masters of Light it is just plain terrible.
There is a book about a man who was allowed to tell the story of his life. He committed suicide at a certain point and he explained in horrifying detail what happened next to him.

This is the first book that I read from this writer. I read it in a period when I myself was in a deep depression and thought of committing suicide myself. It cured me completely of it.

This girls death has lead me to my current frame of mind, tore my current christian beliefs and thru me into a major upheaval for the last 7 months to where, as sane as I am, I was considering suicide myself. I feel we were guided into "meetings" which spanned from high school (she went to a rival one), my younger adult life 3 years later. And I (her) totally blew it. My personal life was not happy, and her whole life seemed like a disaster. So yes there was a lot of subconscious feelings that were brought up. Recently I visited my parents in California and was able to track down her brother. OK this is how strange this thing is. He did not remember me (it has been over 30 years), but he gave me a picture that he kept in his wallet. It was a picture that was taken in one of those black and white photo booths. I bumped into her at a county fair back in '80, it was the last time I saw her. The picture was from that day.

Whatever problems you may have in your mind, don't ever commit suicide!
It is not worth it.
Find professional help if you still suffer from those thoughts.

Oh I am good. But I would be interested in further information, i.e. the book you mentioned.

http://www.mogenblue.nl/english/books/cycle_soul.html

That is the bare naked link.
It was hidden under the word book in my first reply, but there you have it, right before your very eyes.

I read that book a little more then 15 years ago, as I said, when I was considering committing suicide myself. But I could not bring myself to really do it. Someone told me of this book. I thought it might be handy to know what will await you in the afterlife if you do so. So as soon as I heard from it I rushed to a bookstore to buy it.

It didn't disappoint me in any way.
The language in that book was so straight forward that there was not a shred of doubt in my mind that this man knew what he was talking about and that he was telling the truth.
It learned me that it is better to lay on your bed and have a cup of tea once in a while or go out for a stroll in the park then to take your own life.

Because if you do that, there is no turning back and you will have lost the light and warmth of the sun for the rest of your natural life.
You break a law of God by committing suicide. You put yourself out of the natural life that God had planned for you.
Worst of all, you put yourself into the suffering of having to feel the decay of your physical body because you remain attached to it through the astral chord, or whatever you call it. It's horrifying.

Better to read the summary of the book and then download the pdf file to read it on your tablet or so.

Like I said, it cured me completely from those thoughts, and afterwards I started reading the other books of Jozef Rulof. They were just the books I had been looking for for quite some years.
I heard about this medium some years earlier but then I would not believe a dutch medium could be that good. So it took a personal crisis in my life to turn me around.

thanks!

Hi Brian, welcome to the Board!

I'm sorry to hear of the loss of your friend.  Suicide is such a sad loss.  I've lost friends to suicide as well, so I can relate to what you're going through. 

I don't think there's only one answer to your question.  I think each person's afterlife experience will be unique according to what that person needs, wants, and believes.  It's possible your friend was met by loved ones and helpers and was and is being cared for in whatever way is necessary so that healing can take place.  I believe that suicide is a mistake and that for most if not all, once you die you realize the mistake you've made.  It's my hope that you can see things differently then and feel regret rather than get yourself stuck believing you deserved what you did.  It's not possible to say that each suicide receives the same result. 

We've all come to find Bruce's books in different ways.  So since you said that's what led you to his books, have you read enough yet to feel curious about trying to make contact with your friend, ask for a helper to guide you to her, and see if there's any help you can do from here?  It's also my belief that our emotions and energy for those we love and have lost do some good work, even if we are not aware of the result taking place on the other side. 

By the way, in response to the other poster on this thread, it's not of my belief that it's possible to break the law of God by committing suicide.  That, to me, sounds like a Belief System Territory belief which is fine for those who believe it but it doesn't make it so for everyone.  Like I said, I believe each soul is a unique case.  A lot of what your friend experiences depends on what her beliefs were in her identity, her fears, and so on. 

I hope we get to hear more from you Brian.  If you do attempt to make contact with your friend, I'd be so interested in hearing about it. 

Vicky

In the Monroe Focus Level sense I think when someone dies, even by suicide,
they can end up, anywhere between Focus 23 - F 27, perhaps even at some
more advanced or different places, too.

I'm also wondering if the reason we can't access some people after a few years,
may be due to the fact that they or some major part of them have been reborn into
the physical world. At least that would explain some experiences of mine.

So you can go explore and try to sense if you can make contact, by methods
described by Moen. If you don't get a contact, that could mean various things.
The person might not be available, or by some reason it's not useful for you
in that situation, it could also be that it's difficult to "pick up" the connection, etc.
More than one try is usually necessary, at least for me.

My impression is that people who have mental problems due to physical illness, like bi-polar,
have their illness gone once they enter the afterlife. So she may well be in something like
F 27 and be alright.

And other than that, if people doesn't go to F 27, they probably go to some Belief
System Territory, which they gravitate towards. I'm not so sure that the first destination
is that much different for suicide people compared to those who die by natural
causes. And the purpose we are here to do, can always be completed in good ways.
Some probably achieve more than is expected by them, and others probably wants
to be reborn as quickly as possible, unless they join their I-There/Disk.

Brian,

I'm saddened to hear about your friend's death.  I've encountered, after their deaths, some who suicided.   In all cases the person went through a period time in which their realization that their death hadn't ended their existence or pain caused greater pain.  They realized they still had to face the issues that drove them to suicide and that this would have been far easier if they were still physical alive.

As soon as they are willing to accept it Helpers come to assist them in resolving their issues.  This can be a long difficult process because the person still has to work through their issues.  No one outside forces this we do this to heal and relieve their pain.

At least that's my opinion based on my encounters.

Bruce

My daughter committed suicide in October of 2008.  While I can't yet make contact as directly as others, I have had two meaningful connections with her.  One was a vivid dream in which she came to tell me she was fine, about 10 months after she died.  Also, Bruce's friend, Caryl, did a reading for me as part of her research into afterlife communication.  She made contact with my daughter who was helping young children who arrived with no one to meet them.  At the end of the reading in which Megan was asked if she had a special message for me, what came through was so powerful and so true to my daughter that it made both Caryl and I cry.  It was clearly Megan and she is doing splendidly.

I would like to make contact with her, I did purchase Bruces Afterlife book and CD's, but do to my impatience I practically picked up everything else including the The Gateway Experience course.

I started reading the Afterlife Knowledge book again from the start. I have tried to AP and right now I am stuck and still have not projected. I can try again and ask guides to assist me, but I do not know how to go about it asking them.

I would do anything to help her. It would be nice to let her know that she was not forgotten, even when she was still physical. It is just a killer how things turned out for her, guess there a lot of regret on my part.

Me being here and seriously looking at my current beliefs and Life after Death is all because of her.

Brian P wrote on Aug 5^th, 2012 at 5:47am:

right now I am stuck and still have not projected. I can try again and ask guides to assist me, but I do not know how to go about it asking them. .

Brian,

If you mean by this that you haven't achieved an out of body state in which to try to make contact I would say, That's okay as it is entirely unnecessary.  I wasted years trying to learn to go OB at will and NEVER was able to do it.

You can make contact without  OBE and at first the hardest thing to do will most likely be to believe you are in contact with your friend while you are.  Verified contact is routinely done in workshop by participants who are awake, sitting in chairs.

As for help from Guides, just mentally ask for their assistance in guiding you into contact.  They always come when called whether you are aware of them or not.

In the Afterlife Knowledge Guidebook I would suggest you reread the sections on  the Basic Premise,  Perceiver/Interpreter,  Beliefs, and using imagination as a means of perception.  If you haven't read that book I'd recommend you do so, cover to cover.

Bruce

Back to the initial question, this is my opinion based generally on the TMI focus level concept.

When you die, regardless of how you die, you will retreat into a mental fantasy created by you. What this fantasy is can literally be anything but is naturally affected by how you died and your mental state at the time.

If you died without knowing you were about to die for instance, It is very possible that you could mentally create a normal world and go on "living" within this fantasy until someone or you yourself are able to realize that it is just something you created.

In the event of a suicide, you may find yourself in a living hell. Fire brimstone, pretty much whatever you are expecting. You may even find yourself in pure blackness and block all attempts of outside beings from getting through to you.

BUT. This is just a guess. Just because someone kills them-self doesn't mean the afterlife has to be a terrible place. Like I said, this fantasy is created by the person. If you think of the stay puff marshmallow man, the stay puff marshmallow man will come out and kill you. ;-)

Regardless as to what the initial fantasy is, it is possible to move on from this point to a completely aware state in which you are aware of being a being of energy and can communicate with others and do pretty much anything you want.

As I said, this is mainly an opinion, and it does become hard to back up this opinion when you add additional factors, such as spiritual and paranormal contacts that may happen almost immediately after a person is deceased.

How could these supposed events be happening if the deceased is in a mental fantasy world?

BUT... Who is to say how time works in the afterlife. It may be possible to experience years of energy/mentally created fantasy in mere seconds of real life time!

Fascinating!

I do believe that we live in a mental plane while incarnate on earth, and it is just our own perception that tells us that the physical plane is a "real" world.  When we shed our body, either naturally or in a suicide, we should find ourselves with the same state of being we had while alive. 

This is where the danger of suicide lies (in my opinion).  In order to kill yourself, you are breaking an intimate sacred bond you made to come into the world in the first place.  Suicide is never an answer, because how can you escape from your own mind?  If anything, your mind will amplify the despair of self-loathing thoughts that permitted suicide in the first place.  And since spiritual progress may progress more slowly in the nonphysical planes, people may, indeed lock themselves into hellish states of self-loathing and denial of the love inside themselves.  This would make it very difficult for helpers (angels) to reach them, since the individual person has to be open to being helped.

The most important thing that I tell my patients is to be open to the idea of help.  I recently had a 90 year old woman who told me she was traveling to Italy this summer.  She began to have dreams that she was in a great tunnel, and confused, bewildered, asking for directions "home."  I had the strong impression that this was a subconscious communication about her impending trip, but also, possibly about her future passing on in spirit.  Although I couldn't talk freely about that (as I am a well trained western physician, and she wasn't open to that kind of a discussion).  We slowly began to talk about stories in each of our families about communications with the other side, and admitted that there is much we just don't know. 

I gently suggested to her that the most important state of mind I am aware of, is that of an open mind, open to the possibilities.  I said to her that should she ever find herself in a similar situation to that tunnel, in a "dream," not to forget to ask for help and to be open to help being available.  Without going into more details, I thought that vital; she seemed open to the idea.

So, I think suicide is never the answer, because we are not meant to escape from our own minds.  We can work out our fears better while incarnate here on earth, and intuitively, we all "know" that we are meant to strive on and overcome obstacles. 

That being said, I don't believe that people who commit suicide are confined anywhere by an outside force.  They are their own judges, and since most of them have a problem with self-love and self-worth, they can judge themselves too harshly, and lock down their minds.

But there are many possibilities for recovery if we are open to unlocking a negative belief system and asking for help.

Matthew

Docm, what if the submarine is filling with water, you have a functional gun, and no hope of escape from a death of drowning, so you decide to take your own life instead?

When I talk about suicide, I mean under any and all possible circumstances. Sometimes suicide IS the answer.

I can give numerous examples of times when suicide would be considered a better form of death. Further, under these circumstances, I do not consider the person who kills themselves to be breaking any sacred bond whatsoever.


Another circumstance:

Scenario 1:
You are on a ship infected with a deadly disease. Everyone is infected. You are going to die first but not in time for the rest of the crew to investigate your remains to develop a cure. Due to the "sacred bond" you refuse to take your own life. The entire crew dies.

Scenario 2:
You are on a ship infected with a deadly disease. Everyone is infected. You are going to die first but not in time for the rest of the crew to investigate your remains to develop a cure. You take action and kill yourself so that your ships doctor has more time to investigate your remains before the rest of the crew dies. Miraculously, the doctor is able to fabricate a cure for the disease from your remains and the entire crew lives. Due to breaking the "sacred bond" you are still punished?

Sure these are odd circumstances, but I like to consider the circumstances which most people wouldn't. Most of the time we consider mental distress and meaningless suicide. But I am considering much more than that. Suicide with purpose.

Yes, Focus 27,

There are certain situations where we take a course of action, knowing that in the physical world, it may be impossible to overcome.  The soldier who sees a live mine and throws his body over the bomb to spare his comrades is one of those situations.  You can come up with others - the cancer patient, riddled with pain, with no possibility of improvement, etc. 

So there is a difference between suicide from despair (an internal negative state of mind), and a physical situation that we are bound to based on the laws of physics.  If you were standing at the beach and a 200 foot tsunami came roaring in, you could make a mad dash and still be destroyed, or you could take a deep breath in, and hold still to a thought of a loved one when the wave crashed over you.  The outcome there might be inescapable.  I don't consider that the same state of mind as most cases of suicide.

M

Cool Cool.... sounds like we pretty much agree along those lines anyway!

I still think that a suicide under mental distress can result in a non-negative afterlife experience. But I concede the obvious fact that in such a situation the outcome in the afterlife is far more likely to be negative... while still retaining the possibility of the person that killed themselves may be far more intuitive and in tune with the afterlife resulting in a positive outcome regardless.

Just my opinion.

I get it though, I mean, we don't want anyone killing themselves so the more bleak and sad the afterlife is depicted the better chance of stopping someone from killing themselves. In fact, that mind-set is primarily why I focus on the possibility of a suicide with a positive afterlife.

Bruce,

Thanks will read the chapter, as well as getting back on track with your book.

Brian

Hi Brian,

You PM'd me and here's my response.  It's very long, I get wordy, so I thought I'd just share it here on your thread....

Thanks for writing me.  Sorry to hear of your personal pain of losing contact with her and then finding out she'd died.  It's why I always say what I feel and express it, because we just never know when things will change.  Then we have so many unanswered questions.  That's what gets me the most.  I hate not knowing what I want to know. 

Do you have a sense of your own personal guidance?  You know, your higher self?  A lot of people refer to it as spirit guides but that doesn't seem to suit me.  I just use a general umbrella term of "Guidance" to refer to all that spiritual stuff. 

You should really enjoy Bruce's Guidebook and CDs.  I did a retrieval within the first week of having his book and I had only been reading it, wasn't even using the CDs yet then.  What I did was really set my intention on wanting to do a retrieval.  I told myself (my guidance) this was something I really wanted to do.  It was one of those burning-desire things.  Then one evening while I was making dinner and the kids were watching cartoons, I had a strong feeling come over me and felt/heard "go try to do a retrieval right now".  It was such a strong feeling I couldn't ignore it.  I had no idea yet what I was really doing, but I just followed Bruce's technique, sat there at my computer desk and did a retrieval even though I could hear the TV and hear my kids laughing at the cartoons.  It was that easy!

What I wanted to point out to you was that trying to do an OBE or AP isn't necessary.  If you're trying for that, you might create a block.  It's better to just follow the easy steps that Bruce has outlined and trust that whatever you experience and in whatever way you experience it will be ok.  Just trust whatever the process shows you.  What I find time and time again, though....and Bruce doesn't really like people to know this....is that the process usually does lead you to having a genuine OBE.  The reason he doesn't want people to focus on that is so that they don't focus on expecting an OBE and then end up disappointed if they don't have one.  But the truth is, the reason it can and usually does lead to a genuine OBE is because his technique very subtly guides your consciousness into an altered state and you don't even realize that it's happened.  In that altered state, your nonphysical senses of perception open up. 

So it's not that you need to try to "turn on" any special abilities or senses of perception.  That just happens automatically because of the altered state of consciousness you move into.  There are of course various altered states of consciousness we shift into all the time, but we are rarely ever aware any shift has taken place.  Even while normally awake in our normal everyday lives, we move in and out of these altered states of consciousness without realizing it.  So, certain states allow for easy use of our nonphysical senses of awareness that we all have.  These are not special abilities that only special gifted people are born with.  They are a natural part of us because we are conscious beings.  Our physical life awareness is only one small slice of the pie of the totality of our consciousness.  You might say that that one slice out of the whole is what we call physical reality.  You have all the other slices which are other realities, dimensions, and areas of consciousness. 

So you asked me about some insight on contacting guides when doing retrieval work.  It's a concept people make way too complicated because we try to first figure out who such a guide is and how we make contact with the guide, etc.  Those things don't matter and focusing on them will clog up the process.  All you need to do when you sit down to try a retrieval or contact is simply intend to have a guide to guide you.  Set your intention on being guided to do a retrieval, then do the deep breathing exercises until you are very relaxed.  Follow the other techniques Bruce outlines in the guidebook.  Use whatever parts he teaches you which will cause you to get into a relaxed state.  That's the purpose, to let go of your hold on your normal physical state of being.  You don't have to be sleeping, but if your body does go to sleep that's ok as long as you hold your mental awareness awake and focused.  Then, continue focusing on your intention.  If you really want a guide to guide you, then just pay attention to the next thing you notice coming into your mind.  Look for what you "see" in your mind's eye.  Listen, feel, or notice what comes over you.  You'll likely feel something like my foot itches.  Just ignore it.  Tell yourself, "Ok my foot itches, but I'm ignoring the impulse to scratch it because I'm focusing on doing a retrieval right now."  But the kind of thing to notice or feel is not physical, it's going to be an impression.  And usually it will be something so weird or barely noticeable that you'll think it doesn't mean anything. 

But whatever you notice, whatever it is, no matter how insignificant it is, act as if it's exactly what you are looking for.  Act as if it has shown up in direct response to your request.  To do that, just respond to it by acknowledging it and saying to yourself something like, "Ok, I notice that I just thought of flowers.  I wonder if that has to do with leading me into this retrieval."  Or if you "see" something in your mind's eye that looks like an impression of something, just go with it.  Pretend it is a sign.  Say to yourself something like, "Maybe that shape means something.  I want to see more.  What else is there?"  Whatever you choose to do about it, the point is to respond as if believing that's what you need.  Even if it makes no sense at all.  What is really taking place is that you are allowing your body to go into a light sleep state (although it's not necessary, but usually does happen) and your mental awareness continues with the same level of consciousness as normal waking consciousness.  This allows you to focus on your intention and still have use of your normal faculties of awareness.  As you allow yourself to move into the altered state of consciousness and your nonphysical senses of perception begin to open up, and you play along with whatever you perceive in your imagination, what happens is that a guide, helper, or your higher-self guidance is able to get through to answer your request.  We really do have the ability to communicate with these beings and parts of our higher consciousness but the trouble is we usually don't know how to perceive and receive the communication.  But by allowing a shift in your consciousness, you move into a state where such communication is made very easily.  Doing the pretending and following whatever you think you notice in your imagination is like following a trail of breadcrumbs.  That analogy is that if you're too afraid or full of doubt, you won't allow yourself to be led, and you'll hold yourself back in normal everyday consciousness where logic and analyzing and fear are the things which filter what we allow ourselves to experience. 

When you read Bruce's work, you'll see how he shows he did retrievals while sitting in a restaurant or driving his truck.  So please don't confuse what I'm saying to mean that an altered state of consciousness means you are sleeping and dreaming.  What I'm saying is that we all can naturally slip into a state of altered consciousness and NOT EVEN KNOW that anything different has happened.  You can be driving your car, walking, or whatever and not even realize a shift has taken place.  That's how subtle these shifts are.  Do you know that even something as mild as daydreaming is a type of very light sleep?  Daydreaming, or even closing your eyes for a few moments automatically slows down the brainwaves.  So you can see how easy it is to shift into altered states of consciousness without realizing it.  This is what meditation is all about.  This is why learning how to quiet the mind and just be and just feel are good techniques when learning to do consciousness work. 

Bruce has taught me time and time again that when wanting a helper or guide to help you, it's not about "seeing" anything.  All that really matters is the thought.  Just have the thought that a helper is there and then just talk to the helper as if one is there.  The tricky part in learning all of this is allowing yourself to play with the process.  That's why Bruce suggests doing a pretend visit and conversation in your mind.  Create a daydream in your mind where you're fantasizing that you're going to visit with your deceased friend.  Make up in your mind what the scene looks like.  Pretend that she shows up for the visit and sits down at the table (or whatever the scene is).  Daydream what you'd say, and as you make all of this up play it out in your mind like you're writing a scene in a movie.  You are making up everything that happens.  You are controlling and directing everything.  As you do, the same shift in consciousness is taking place as your body relaxes, as your breath slows, as your brainwaves slow.  All you are doing is keeping your mind awake while all of this is taking place.  All you're doing is using the framework of "daydreaming" as a means to hold your attention on your focus of intention as all of these other processes are happening.  You won't even notice that you have shifted into some altered state, however slight it may be, and as you play the daydream conversation in your imagination, what eventually happens is that the scene takes on a life of its own.  The friend in your imagination could start to do or say something before you have a chance to make up what you want to pretend her to say.  You'll find yourself thinking, "Wait a sec, why did that just happen?"  Don't question too much, just observe what's happening.  It will be necessary to continue pretending too, to help keep things moving along.  But pay attention to everything that happens.  When you're done with it, or when you notice you can't hold onto the state or daydream any longer, or if it seems to end, that's when you can go back to normal everyday thinking, analyzing, and logic.  You'll want to write down everything you did and noticed and felt.  Write it all down and then see what is there that you know you did not know about or make up.  Maybe in your daydream/imagination your friend said something that could be real information.  That's why Bruce suggests asking your helper guide to show you, tell you, or give you something in the experience to prove that this is real.  The real information can come in any form, but what happens is that it will be subtle too, seeming to play right into the daydream in your imagination.  You'll think you were just making it up, but there could be something that you realize you didn't think you made up.  Or it could be some information you have no normal way of knowing.  If you have a way of verifying the information with a friend or relative of the deceased person, they could verify it for you and it would be pretty remarkable evidence that you really did have genuine contact with the deceased person. 

I know that only using the imagination technique doesn't seem satisfying enough as proof of real contact, but as you continue practicing you will eventually have an experience which proves to you beyond any doubt that the experience was real.  For me it was when my perception opened to the point of OBE conscious awareness.  A lot of my psychic experiences are in that same kind of state of consciousness, so I'm used to the feeling of that kind of awareness.  When I have an experience in that state of awareness, I recognize the feeling of it and know it's genuine and isn't just made up.  I know for a fact that I cannot fake that kind of feeling or that kind of visual awareness and knowing.  You cannot fake knowing something that you have no normal way of knowing.  Any little bit of verification of real information that you can find will propel your trust and confidence in doing this kind of work. 

Vicky

I'll add 2 cents, from my experience, if something itches, I can scratch back gently,
and still maintain the retrieval. Reason why I do so is that an itch disturbs me
more than the movement of actually scratching. I think gentle movements are
possible in altered states, specially if I'm lying down. Also, I've managed to make
a retrieval with my eyes open and sitting up, but that was an unusual event, pushed
on me from outside Helpers.

Vicky, If I by any chance add anything anywhere of value, you may use it for any
book you write.

Hey Pauli, thanks.  By the way, I have had to teach myself to ignore an itch or otherwise I'd never stop being distracted!   :)

You know what I think Brian...Your friend is just fine. Don't worry. Her existence is full of love. (and most likely, thats thanks to you)There is no judgment given out "over there". Just a period where you can reflect, grow from your actions, and move on. She didn't go to hell or any of those religious based fear implants. Shes just fine. In fact I will bet you shes extremely happy you cared so much about her you went looking for answers to help her.  That's love. Do her the honer of continuing asking, and searching.

hawkeye,

little confused about how the afterlife can know what we are doing here on this plane of existance? do our emotions for someone cross over?

I do not know if she believed or not..

Brian P wrote on Aug 6^th, 2012 at 6:01am:

do our emotions for someone cross over? I do not know if she believed or not..

They certainly do. It does not matter if you believe or not. It's about the feeling and the intention. Spirits in the afterlife can pick up our feelings very well if we think about them intensely enough. Bonds between loved ones can be very strong. But so can feelings of hate.

Anyway, emotions do cross over and are felt by those who they are meant for in the afterlife.

Strange thing that whole "passing over" thought. And I know, I brought it up. But what is "over" may be really "here" also. Just on a slightly different leval. Why wouldn't our energies like emotion carry through to "there"? I think she feels (not like touch, but like an energy) your emotion. Your love and how you feel when you attach enough energy to that thought. I don't think she will necessarily hang around for, what we think, is a long time waiting to hear for you. That all said, when you love something, or someone, the energy is felt. She didn't need to believe in anything while she was here living in body. Didn't need to have some religious belief. Some learned feeling of hate or fear as most religions teach. Just needed to feel a little love when she was here. Or for that matter, a little love right now. I suggest you tell her, I mean really put it out `there`how much of an impact she has made upon your life. How grateful you are for having had the opportunity to spend some time with her. Then send her your love. Send that emotion of love you have in your heart for her. Then thank her again, and release her from any energy you may feel necessary, but may be holding her back. Let her go, and be happy for her. She knows real love now. You never know, some day down the road when its your turn to go over there, you might just run into her again. Only this time she may be sending you that love energy to help you open your hearts eyes and see the love possible. Good luck Brian. Know she loves you, just because you love her.

Brian P wrote on Aug 6^th, 2012 at 6:01am:

...little confused about how the afterlife can know what we are doing here on this plane of existance? do our emotions for someone cross over?

As this is a Moen/Monroe site I will mention the concept I-There (Monroe term)
and Disk (about the same thing, in Moen term).

The Disk/I-There is a kind of collection of several different (mostly previous?) lives.
Somehow those lives are connected to us in the physical. The Disk is also
connected to members of other Disks.

And with the risk of building a belief system, I think the theory is that our experiences
are constantly fed to our various Disks, so they know "everything".

Monroe explains some parts of it in his book Ultimate Journey.

hi this is wat doris stokes medium says about suicide as she is asked the question,i beleive in her,to me shes a very genuine medium

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YjAwQBD6kGs&feature=relmfu

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HTxVF7H9Z2s&feature=relmfu

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4FCYHAzXdq0&feature=relmfu

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IxybpGhYIsE&feature=relmfu

love and god bless  love juditha xxx

Both the Bible and astral adepts stress the afterlife principle that like attracts like.  The implications of this are tricky because "likemindedess" has many levels.  I knew an active church member who shot himself because he couldn't cope with the increasing pain of an inoperable malignant brain tumor.  His case seems analogous to the biblical example of King Saul who lay mortally wounded on a battle field and asked his armor bearer to thrust his sword through him.  When the respectful armor bearer refused, Saul fell on his own sword.  But Saul rightly reasoned that if he did not do so, his Philistine enemies would kill him and probably torture him to death. Though Saul made many serious mistakes in his life, his suicide is not treated as one of them!

Judas Iscariot committed suicide out of remorse when he saw that his betrayal of Jesus had not forced Jesus' hand to use his miraculous powers to extricate himself from his plight and become the political Messiah that Judas always hoped he would become.
Judas's remorse shows that he really loved Jesus and his suicide makes him more of a tragic figure than an evil one.   The Bible never claims that Judas was condemned to Hell and I doubt that he is trapped in a hell now.  That said, the Bible never actually condemns suicide!

Like attracts like on the basis of our core desires, but our unique complexes of core desires are hard to assess in terms of the postmortem destinination to which they draw us. In Dr. George Ritchie's NDE, he encounters an earthbound son who committed suicide and follows his grieving mother around shouting (but not being heard!): "I didn't know, Mom; I just didn't know!"  Suicides committed to escape life's challenges no doubt draw many to an interim state of profound remorse, where they must experience in detail  the impact of their actions on those who love them. For most, then, suicide  is wrong, but, I believe, the negative consequences are meant to be educational and remedial.   As Christian writer C. S. Lewis puts it, "The gates of hell are locked from the inside."  In other words, God does not trap us in a hell; we do--and we can leave if and when we are ready for spiritual transformation.  The Bible teachers that God's love never permanently abandons anyone after death.

Don

hi don i agree with everything you have written,ive always thought that judas loved jesus,he got took in by the sanhedrins lies and truly beleived he was helping jesus,even today people get took in by some smooth talking man or woman in high up places,like politicians,they tell the people a load of crap just to get there trust and then betray them soon as they reach office,so i can understand how judas got took in by there false promises,to gain his trust and betray him.

i beleive that god understands why we commit suicide and fran who runs our circle said she beleives that the soul comes here to learn,but sometimes the soul gets overloaded and cant take anymore and commits  suicide

love and god bless  love juditha

Under pressure everything gets fluid.

I will never recommend suicide for reasons I have learned from the book "The Cycle of the Soul".
However there are situations in which death is inescapable and suicide could prevent unnecessary suffering.

The scenarios Focus27 scetched in his reply on Aug 5th 2012 in reply #15 could be for me legitimate reasons to commit suicide.
This kind of suicide is not meant for self interest but for the protection of other people.

The Universe is based on three basic principles: Motherhood, Fatherhood and Rebirth.
Protection of other people is a kind of Motherhood. It is a kind of love that shows as light in the spheres of light.
So that kind of suicide is more an act of sacrifice then to alleviate their own pain.

This is a kind of exceptional situation and has not been discussed in the books of Jozef Rulof that I have read. I haven't read all of them. Especially most of the 57 lectures are still on my list.

---

If I were in a terminal condition like from cancer I think I would still refuse suicide or euthanasia.
The point is that I would still remain attached to my body and I would still feel everything that happened to it. I would have to feel and endure the decay of it. But more then that, I would be in total darkness without even a stone to lay my head on to rest for the rest of my natural life.

If I would endure the terminal condition on Earth I would still have the warmth and light of the sun. I could still receive the care of people around me. I could still enjoy meals and drinks. I could still enjoy the wind and rain in my face and over my body.

If I were gone and live in total darkness I could still receive the thoughts and feelings of other people and I could send my feelings back but we would not be able to touch each other anymore or have normal talks and so. And I could not enjoy the normal things in life anymore that are so obvious to ordinary people when you are here.

I have seen cancer in my own family and I know how painful it can be. So I know what I am talking about.
I think suicide would not improve my situation in a terminal condition. Otherwise I certainly would. Everything to make my suffering as little as possible.

---

Jesus did not want Judas to commit suicide. If Judas had not done so Jesus would have been able to help him more.
Jesus understood Judas very well.
Judas suffered from his act in his next lives on Earth as well. It is described in 'The Peoples of the Earth as seen from the Other Side'. Finally Judas got over it and found his way to the spheres of light and reunited with his fellow apostles.

Mogen,

While I understand you are a student of Rulof, the idea that souls must be stuck to a physical body for a period of time, -  no matter -  what goes against what many afterlife explorers have found.  While I applaud your study of his lectures, you have adopted his belief system about this. 

We are, in our true essence pure consciousness.  We manifest ourselves into the physical plane, but when the earthly body detaches, we are (again) pure thought.  We can see ourselves as stuck to the physcial (such as a decaying body) only if we have that belief system.  There is no supernatural edict which forces our souls to remain tied to a decaying body, or anything for that matter.  "As per your belief, so it will be done unto you."  You may be frightened by the idea of being confined to the earth plane for a set length of time, but I want you to realize that this is just a belief system which you have adopted.  Astral evidence and near-death experiences do not support Rulof's hypothesis here.

M

DocM: "student"??

You just try reading 'The Origin of the Universe' after you have read his introductory books. And then we will talk again.

I am not a student of Rulof. I am an expert at his work.

The Masters have said that if you have read those books you are the people on Earth ahead for hundreds of years.

Like I said before somewhere else:
Hundreds of years ago people believed the Earth was flat and that you would fall of if you went too far.
Galileo was punished for speaking true about the shape of the Earth.

Eventually people changed their beliefs about the shape of the Earth.
But Earth did not change it's shape because people changed their beliefs about it.

DocM, I think you will just have to wait until you arrive in the afterlife and then see for yourself. You are not ready to open up to the Masters of Light.

DocM wrote on Sep 11^th, 2012 at 8:18am:

While I applaud your study of his lectures, you have adopted his belief system about this.

Is that a crime? Am I going to be crucified for that?

And Galilei was not punished by science as everybody very well knows.

Ok, Mogen,

I see you need clarification on my statement.  You read Rulof, and have adopted his dogma as your reality.  It makes sense to you.  I don't begrudge you your choice.  Yet his notion that people who are cremated suffer unspeakable fire due to a persistent connection to their corpse, or that people who commit suicide must stay by their rotting corpses and not move on because they had a "fixed time" to be alive which they denied, does not ring true to me or to many who have explored the afterlife and spoken with the deceased. 

You see Mogen, we are not our physical bodies.  Rulof's system denies this basic reality.  When the sould is freed of the physical body, it is like shedding and losing clothes.  The idea that the physical construct (the body on the earth plane), could tie down a soul somehow is patently absurd. 

Now if you have a belief system that you believe in with true conviction, then as per the strength in this belief in the afterlife, it will come to pass.  So that if one believes one must stay with one's corpse, perhaps that soul will get "stuck" and do so.  Perhaps thousands or millions have.  But why would you perpetuate such a belief system?

Why not explore on your own, and take the good aspects of Rulof's work that ring true to you, and discard the bad?  If you don't explore on your own, then you are not relaying first-hand knowledge - just telling us all that Rulof's first-hand knowledge is "the truth."  That sort of second-hand knowledge is a cop out. 


M

DocM wrote on Sep 11^th, 2012 at 6:11pm:

Why not explore on your own

DocM, how many OBE's have you had in your entire life?
How do you record your OBE's so that other people who are not so gifted can easily access them?

Please be straight.

Mogen,

I have had several paranormal experiences, which have led me to see that we are more than our physical bodies and that there is an afterlife.  I have documented some of these on this message board.  I have had a few OOBE, but also communications from my father after he passed on, and one of my uncles. 

I don't know how to access extremely old threads here, but I have not been shy about stating my experience. 

I do not profess to be a master.  I feel that any can explore on their own - that is why I like Bruce's methods so much.  No pretense or mumbo jumbo. 

Admittedly, we all choose our beliefs.  Even the belief in the afterlife is a belief system.  Yet I prefer to take Pascal's wager, that God exists than to live as if he does not.  My belief system is one of open-mindedness.  I figure that being open to the possibilities will make it least likely that my mind will be clouded by hindering beliefs. 

M

DocM wrote on Sep 11^th, 2012 at 6:37pm:

My belief system is one of open-mindedness.  I figure that being open to the possibilities will make it least likely that my mind will be clouded by hindering beliefs.

Is your mind open enough to accept that Jozef Rulof has had hundreds of OBE's?

Is your mind open enough to accept that Jozef Rulof was a sincere person who had the best intentions for mankind?

Rulof was a man; no more, no less.  All of us have a great potential.  None of us are meant to give unwavering instructions to others, as the nature of consciousness is intensely personal - thus direct experience and exploration is the best way to know first-hand the reality of the afterlife and God. 

If  follow all of any teacher's plan without exploring on my own, I am buying into a system without having the  "Knowing" of direct experience. 

Yes, I am open minded enough to believe Rulof was sincere.  No, I do not think his way is "true" and all others miss the mark - because I have explored on my own, and continued to do so.  Can you say the same Mogen?

DocM wrote on Sep 11^th, 2012 at 7:49pm:

Yes, I am open minded enough to believe Rulof was sincere.  No, I do not think his way is "true" and all others miss the mark - because I have explored on my own, and continued to do so.  Can you say the same Mogen?

So you do accept that Jozef Rulof was sincere and you don't accept that he has had hundreds of OBE's because you have explored on your own, and continued to do so?

There are many descriptions of the afterlife. I think they often follow
the concept of that time.

PauliEffectt wrote on Sep 12^th, 2012 at 6:43am:

There are many descriptions of the afterlife. I think they often follow the concept of that time.

How can you verify that with the afterlife itself?
It is also possible that certain parts of the afterlife itself follow the same concept of time as on Earth.

How many OBE's have you had in your entire life?
How do you record your OBE's so that other people who are not so gifted can easily access them?

Mogen,

You do not address any of the issues posed to you.  You merely refer to Rulof or this or that "master."  You have not explored on your own, by your own admission.  I therefore won't argue with you; I simply feel sorry for you, in that you are closing your mind to the possibilities of first-hand knowledge.  I predict you will experience an afterlife based on what you believe.  It is just a shame that is another man's belief system without verification with your own first-hand exploration.  I hope you are not tied to your physical corpse after death as that is part of your belief system (not mine).  I wish you well in following your teachings  though, and hope you will be open to other experiences.


Matthew

You finally understood.

I think this thread has detoured from the idea that we are not alone, never ever alone, and that we each have helpers/guides/whathaveyou watching over us who are ready to assist us if we find ourselves in a disagreeable spot after death, no matter what kind of death, no matter how the death came about, I repeat, no matter what happens, before or after we consider ourselves attached to a human body.

There are so many levels to our existence that it is almost laughable that this one that we consider 'real' is the only way to know who we are.

We have friends on many levels, not just this one, so the opinions of others at this level are not the "end all be all" of this subject.

I agree.

wrote on Sep 12^th, 2012 at 10:01am:

We have friends on many levels, not just this one, so the opinions of others at this level are not the "end all be all" of this subject.

You're right, isee.

i am a medium and i can assure everyone when u commit suicide u go to heaven its a known fact dianna

when i say u commit suicide and u do go to heaven i dont mean go and do it because god put us on this earth for a reason i have been to hell and back so many times in my life i dont know how i got through it so many times suicide is not the answer but u do go to heaven still where u are taken care of because u took your own life our god is a very forgiving god and he does answer your prayers he has answered many of my prayers ,so dont give up too easily because things have a way for working themseves out believe me i have been there at such a low ebb luv dianna

Being to hell and back is no excuse for lack of punctuation, dianna. ;) Having compassion about it, not handing out pardons to the "quitters", is already a common experience on earth. Doesn't take godlike powers to do that.

wrote on Sep 12^th, 2012 at 10:01am:

I think this thread has detoured from the idea that we are not alone, never ever alone, and that we each have helpers/guides/whathaveyou watching over us who are ready to assist us if we find ourselves in a disagreeable spot after death, no matter what kind of death, no matter how the death came about, I repeat, no matter what happens, before or after we consider ourselves attached to a human body. There are so many levels to our existence that it is almost laughable that this one that we consider 'real' is the only way to know who we are. We have friends on many levels, not just this one, so the opinions of others at this level are not the "end all be all" of this subject.

Isee, well said!  Thank you for steering the concept and foundation of this Conversation Board back in the right direction by reminding everyone that no one knows the "end all be all" of anything. 
:)

I suspect that the beginning of wisdom is when we realize that neither we, nor a master or guru, has all of the answers.  Probably not even all of the questions......

I suspect the afterlife is so extraordinarily complex and multi-layered that even advanced spirits are still searching for what's over the next hill.

When we indulge in these back and forth "disputes" as to who knows what, it's kind of like a pair of goldfish in a tank thinking that the glass walls represent the boundaries of the known world.

R

Vicky, no one knows the end all be alll, so thanks for steering back in the right direction. Vicktoriously ironic! :)

Sometimes, when others state that their own masters are the only "true voice," there are some on this board  (myself included, Albert and a few others) who speak up and say  - "not so fast",  That many people on this board believe in personal exploration and experience,  - not being told to believe in the system of another based on a text only, be it a guru, "master of light" etc.  Once in a while, I am compelled to speak, for I feel that the casual reader, or "newbie" could get confused. 

Glad the discourse is back on track.  My thoughts are that it is not so simple, with suicides, to say that "all will be well," or conversely "all will be horrible."  In part, it is their emotional state on passing on, and the person's openness to help, which will likely determine how they fare. 

Matthew

I would like to state that I have the right to speak up my mind based on my beliefs.

I would also like to state that 2000 years ago Christ was a one man operation too and people did not want anything at all from him. Everybody knows what happened to him on Golgotha.

Quote:

DocM Glad the discourse is back on track.  My thoughts are that it is not so simple, with suicides, to say that "all will be well," or conversely "all will be horrible."  In part, it is their emotional state on passing on, and the person's openness to help, which will likely determine how they fare.

Somewhere in the all well, all horrible section, a true story. There are two friends that at one point in time both contemplated suicide without the other one knowing. One put up a sign on a door leading inside the house, urging visitors to leave the house and call medical personnel. He changed his mind. The very next day he got news about his friend shooting himself in the head at his parents' house. One got the emotional impact on earth (also seeing what might have been) and one in the afterlife. Some stories are stranger than fiction.


Quote:

Mogenblue I would like to state that I have the right to speak up my mind based on my beliefs.

Speaking one's mind based on beliefs sounds about right.


Quote:

Mogenblue I would also like to state that 2000 years ago Christ was a one man operation too and people did not want anything at all from him. Everybody knows what happened to him on Golgotha.

So, in 2000 years people will adore you, but right now you're being crucified? More like you brewing a storm in a glass of water because your beliefs were questioned, in a factual manner. Being a complete idiot was then one of your responses, which is you causing a snowstorm in a snow globe.

wrote on Sep 13^th, 2012 at 10:04am:

So, in 2000 years people will adore you, but right now you're being crucified? More like you brewing a storm in a glass of water because your beliefs were questioned, in a factual manner. Being a complete idiot was then one of your responses, which is you causing a snowstorm in a snow globe.

I don't need to be adored and I can still move my limbs and my head. People have become more civilized in 2000 years. Also the internet is between me and the others. That is also a comfortable seperation.
Christ did not come to Earth to be adored either. You probably missed His point.

Mogenblue - sure, a point is probably missed in that regard. Advices, philosophies, thoughts and so on can be interesting to hear about and explore. But no matter how anybody present themselves, good or bad, they're not going to be my master nor lord.

Do you have any thoughts about suicide that are yours, and not part your masters' work?

wrote on Sep 13^th, 2012 at 12:42pm:

Do you have any thoughts about suicide that are yours, and not part your masters' work?

Do you think I have an empty head or something? Stop bugging me.

Mogenblue,

I am a devout Christian who believes for many reasons that Jesus and God are major players in the afterlife.  I don't apologize for posts that express this bias (hopefully with good evidence) on this site.  But I don't expect anyone to simply submit to my spiritual perspective; on the contray, I eocourage and expect disagreement, especially from those with non-Christian backgrounds and from those whose exposure to the church has been negative, even toxic.  Everything spiritually worthwhile has its spiritual counterfeit.  So on a site like this with its great diversity of posters, we must simply embrace the need to disagree agreeably.  That, of course, is also the proper Christian response. In astral or OBE research, it is incredbily hard to sort out facts from interpretation and prior expectation.  Our best hope is to encourge diversity of interpretation and seek to develop criteria to separate the wheat from the chaff.

Don

Don,

You are absolutely right. I appreciate your respect to me. I try to respect the other posters as well. I admit that sometimes I may be a bit too persistent in my responses. Perhaps I could be a bit more understanding or patient with others. It's just that the books of Rulof have had such a profound effect on me. The understanding and knowlegde that I encountered there is unlike anything I have found before. The love and simplicity of their explanations is an example to everybody who wants to write a book about spirituality. In my opinion.

But if posters start to come on to me, I will get them back.

I really appreciate the understanding and wide insight of your response here and elsewhere. Sorry, my English is too limited, otherwise I would have chosen better words.

-Frits

Speaking of spiritual counterfeits, Swedenborg, who without question has explored the afterlife more comprehensively and exhaustively than any other person and who wrote many volumes about his findings, warned about the extensive amount of fraud and deception existing in the afterlife.

For that reason he advised others not to attempt to contact spirits.  It seems that spirits who we end up contacting are most likely those existing on the lower planes and who take great delight in dishing out false information. They can come across sounding very high minded and can convince us that they are looking out for our best interests with their advice and guidance. 

Apparently more highly evolved spirits are also more remote and inaccessible to those of us on the earth plane (except, of course, angels who on their own volition intercede on our behalf).

Bottom line- just because the source of information is from the other side, that is no reason to assume the information is true.

R

Swedenborg was very right about that. The only way to really verify information from the other side of life is to go there yourself and see by yourself what they are talking about.

Spirits from the other side may hold a cross in your face and say they mean absolutely the best with you, while on the other hand they are taking bad advantage of you.

Quote:

Mogenblue Do you think I have an empty head or something? Stop bugging me.

Hehehe, stop bugging yourself by projecting your assumption @ yourself. Keeping in mind what you stated about speaking your mind based on your beliefs, and also keeping the topic in mind:

My belief is that a being said or proposed by written words to have miraculous powers, a master, and yet is powerless to stop a crucifixion, is at best hyped. In other words - jesus in the story let himself be nailed and killed, which is committing suicide, and even passed on the blame. A god creating the earth in 7 days, but can't stop a crucifixion.

Perhaps this is a bit too persistent, but I love the profound effect logic can have.

wrote on Sep 14^th, 2012 at 10:14am:

Hehehe, stop bugging yourself by projecting your assumption @ yourself. Keeping in mind what you stated about speaking your mind based on your beliefs, and also keeping the topic in mind: My belief is that a being said or proposed by written words to have miraculous powers, a master, and yet is powerless to stop a crucifixion, is at best hyped. In other words - jesus in the story let himself be nailed and killed, which is committing suicide, and even passed on the blame. A god creating the earth in 7 days, but can't stop a crucifixion. Perhaps this is a bit too persistent, but I love the profound effect logic can have.

I am just wondering how ignorant people can get.  :o

Quote:

Mogenblue I am just wondering how ignorant people can get.

;D Logical suicide, the plot thickens.

hi i feel suicide is another word for one who has grossed into the concious mind of the unknown,were be it found,who can tell where this is,it could be anywhere,absolutely anywhere ,where have i gone she says ,is it me whos talking or is it something ive dreamed up but did i dream it or is it reality on my part,hold on a minute is this me,im not sure to be quite honest,im writing here but aint got a clue what this  is im writing,i know weat it is its me,no more shifting thed blame,for i am responsible for whatever i write,hey sorry wat i have writtyen,it must be the water.

loves you all god bless have a nice night,i dont know why but this water tastes very much like wine ,cheers  lol  xxx

I think wine and channeling don't go together too very well, juditha.

God bless xxx
Mogenblue

wrote on Sep 15^th, 2012 at 4:38pm:

grossed into the concious mind of the unknown

I think the conscious mind of the unknown is what causes people to be reborn again among others.
I would compare it with the laws of unconsciousness.
There is so much we still don't know. We know how to make children. But we don't know how it really works.
Everybody knows how to drive a car. But few know how a car really works. Let alone how to build it.

I would have to argue that those that study the reproductive process completely understand how children are created to the point of creating an artificial womb. Of course, the general public does not have this knowledge. But that is why people specialize in certain areas. I am certain human cloning is already possible with our current technology, we, as humans have too many laws stopping science however.

Fine. But do you think they understand everything of the unconsciousness?

I mean, are scientists able to create independant and full grown and fully functional life from scratch with nothing more but water and minerals? I don't think so.

I attempted to post directly under Post#9 as my query is specific to Mr. Moen's entry...

How are unresolved issues associated with suicide any different than similar issues that are not resolved due to an accidental death?

If the suicidal person is despondent because of decades of unacceptable interactions with humans on earth, how will will the the suicide have the same problems after their death?

From reading Monroe's books, the entities one encounters after death are, with the exception of the newly deceased, not the incompetent egotists here on the blue planet.

It is curious that the topic of suicide is not discussed directly in either the Monroe books or any of the Toltec literature concerning I am familiar with.

Both bodies of work mention the issue, but don't speak directly to it.

Monroe wrote in UJ:

Chapter 7
"You are being human at your own option in the strictest sense. That option remains in force throughout your visit. You may pack up your experience and leave whenever and for wherever you desire with no censure or penalties from any source that matters"

Chapter 16
Monroe writes what are Knowns about the Creator:

"does not punish for "evil" and "misdeeds"



The above text seems to indicated that suicide is a valid option...

The only text I have read in the Toltec canon is a brief quote from Juan Matus that "...some men of knowledge choose death" (my paraphasing).

Perhaps the individuals that Mr. Moen encountered died at their own hand without an understanding of the afterlife and/or were hobbled by their life exposure to standard belief systems that describe punishment or reward after human death.

The Toltec path is interesting to me in that the parallels with Monroe's work are incredible and undeniable.

Hello NMM,

Ok, query for Moen. I'll add that once you learn to defend (measured use of force) yourself when needed, "incompetent egotists" aren't such a problem anymore, and maybe other challenges start to unravel too. Don Miguel Ruiz is said to express Toltec wisdom, and I liked his concept and description about not taking anything personally, or less personally. Less suffering.

Monroe also said living on earth is learning the basic tools to becoming a maker yourself (the whole self). Not paying attention to what most of this world addicted to all things body will say about it, but still, kicking the bucket isn't very maker-y, particularly when considering being an immortal being. I don't think less about anyone choosing to disconnect from the world by their own hands, but instead I hope they step up and actively change their lives for the better, one part, then another part, until it's not such a big of a problem.

Thanks for your prompt response.

I'm not really with you on the defense concept.

I view the negative aspects of humanity not necessarily as an offensive body to actively defend against, althought that is often the case.

I was communicating more from a view of our existence being poisoned by the combined negative mental/spiritual effluvium of our billions. The image I perceive is a toxic myasma generated by humans as we muddle about on earth: misled, deluded, violent.

I see the response, in the context of incompetent egotists, as being more filtering or separation, I don't perceive it as a phalanx against which one can raise a shield or dodge an incoming pike.

Hi again NMM,

Person A doesn't like that the whole neighborhood violently pours milk at the same time, grumbles, and pours milk in unison and thus harmonizing with the group. They are a misled bunch of wilderbeasts, I'll grant person A that. Person A observing this collective ritual doesn't have to participate. (S)he is a grown up and can pour milk in his/her sweet own time. He/she knows better, and eventually does better than having to conform. A decision is made not to conform to the standards of the neighborhood. He/she is now not a poisoned one, but still lives in the neighborhood, albeit with new friends that were unavailable as long as (s)he conformed.

Always saying no, or always saying yes, those are the extremes of this world. Shave off the extremes in YOUR life and at the same time allow the neighbour to have HIS/HER stuporous binge drinking (slow suicide) as long as she doesn't have her end of her world party in your garden. At the end of the day, that's really the only person you can control, your self, without getting into all sorts of issues. There's also possibilities of setting up different practices, like Monroe did, where people can choose to participate, or not.

And now I recall that I forgot to ask you why you are curious about suicide? It might be obvious, then again it might not be.

BM,

Thanks for your concern, but I'll be around for a while.

Right now I'm dropper nursing two premature kittens & trying to finish the carpentry on one of my desks-kinda busy to check out without paying the bill.

I'm curious that you mention don Ruiz. I enjoy Ruiz' positive energy but he seems to be omitting some key components of the Toltec perspective.

Although I respect his writings, he doesn't address the dreaming body, the predator, and other inorganic beings in the manner that Castaneda and his group frequently do.

Are you familiar with the works of Donner, Abelar& Tenneshende? Their descriptions deal with an entitiy "squeezing the awareness of of the living beings that just expired on the earth."

They describe the necessity of forming a replica of our earthly experiences to "feed" to an entity encountered at the moment of physical death.

Other of their narratives describe the human condition as being a bundle of energy encased in a physical form and journeying on to evovle, individually and collectively to ultimately rejoion the creator.

Their history also involves a "...predator who comes from the depth of the cosmos to feed upon us..." (paraphrased). This seems to be similar description as loosh.

I view the INSPECs described by Monroe as the "inorganic beings" described in the Toltec writings.

The key tenets of "the known" the "unkown" and the "unknowable" are also qutie similar between the two descriptions.

The Toltec traveler seemed, at times, to be subject to encountering a variety of inorganic beings and other embodiments or representations of intelligent life-although not boung to the time-space reality humanly mandated.

Some of these encounters were malevolent and others were benevolent, but the parallels to Monroe's experiences are uncanny.

Sorry for veering off topic. I've been immersed in reading Monroe and Toltec books for the last several evenings.

I'll be around. I'm looking for answers-lots of answers...

BM,

By "albeit with new friend" do you mean mortal, organic beings-the humans I am forced to interact with or inorganic beings?

The former I am disgusted with. The latter, though I have, on occastion, felt their presence at night in the woods or on the water (I am a kayaker), are painfully elusive.

The following question is not specific to self-termination, but it is a serious problem for me...

I can mentally accept that we humans are actually celestial beings forced or willingly undergoing the human experience. What I can't accept is how celestial beings can be so utterly stupid and self-destructive (on the whole, and, often, individually).

Do we celestial beings swallow some kind of "dumbass, selfish, now off to ruin most good terrestrial things" pill when we agree to the time-space continuum and existence on the blue planet?

I live in a rural setting. Except for the homicidal rapist bit, I literally have to deal with people who are much like the locals in the film "Deliverance."

I am not exaggerating. Simply going into town to buy groceries, well, when I return, I scrape the filth of "civilization" off my boot heel before I open my gate and step foot onto my green acre.

Before stepping onto the good, clean dirt.

At least the rattlesnakes back in my wood are honest and direct-in contrast to the homo sapiens in town.

That is how bad it is for me...

How did this happen? What went wrong here on the blue planet?

Were we supposed to experience this level of misery? I am 50 and I can CLEARLY see that we have, in large part, socially and morally regressed since my youth.

But I do feel that I am one of the poisoned ones. Simply being exposed to the mental/spiritual detritus infects me.

My search for guides has, so far, been unsuccessful. I would welcome a being who can offer me a "being mask"-like a gas mask) for my true self.

As an insomniac, I am dependent on medication to maintain any semblance of a "normal" daily routine (sleep at night, wake in morn). Thus any sleep experiences normally available are either chemically exlcuded or or buried in a haze.

I don't like medication. I don't feel that lack of Xanax (or valium, or Lexapro, or whatever) in my system is the problem.

Such medications are like cauterizing a wound. The sealing heat holds the blood in and prevents the entry of harmful microbes. But such treatment is a response to injury.  Avoiding or preventing injury is the ideal situation.

I have shaved off many extremes in my life. I am not fully there yet, but I do, in many ways, live "...a hard, simple life..." as recommended by Juan Matus.

I now have a working well, but until recently hand carried every drop of water I consumed. Drinking, cooking, bathing. Such work and time consuming activities did help, but a single conversation with a bipedal fool pulls me back into the mess, if just a bit.

But the bit grows. Like dropping black ink onto fuzzy paper, the dark intrusion quickly spreads.

I do pursue different practices. I spend far more time with animals than humans. This is somewhat better, but the pointless violence in the animal world (e.g. cats killing but not devouring) still fails to satisfy.

Sorry for the verbosity. I am on a caffeine binge (coffee plus caff pills) just to wake up.

I do have a plan to remove myself from this geographical area and the stilted culture and perspectives that are pervasive here.

It is an intellectual, professional plan, to be clear. But it takes time (a few months, at minimum) and the situation is growing worse.

I haven't given up. So, really, don't be overly concerned.

Hey NMM,

Ok, so you're not one to conform, good for you. My feeling is that the dark intrusion is more of a fear of yours than an actual slice of reality. I also feel that you're better off to accept that people are who they are rather than the ideal in your mind. Many will be focused on down to earth issues and almost exclusively on mundane matters, so be it, it's their way of life, just as you have your way of life. Talking with some human incarnations pulls you back into a mess, that's the symptom, what is the root here?

The dumb pill/violence you talk about, well, let's use sex for sex as an example, being horny, and it goes to show how a body seamlessly blends into one's thoughts and the definition of who we are.

It's a bittersweet ride when you start spiraling out, start to gain escape velocity. Once very involved, now, taking a look at what you're eventually leaving behind. There's no rush though, and the speed cannot be forced. There are still unharmful joys to be had in this world.

Where are you thinking about moving?

Hmmm,

A nonconformist? That is a new moniker for me. Actually, I am quite conservative and traditional.

I hope to move to the Pacific Northwest this spring.

I disagree with you about sexual energy necesssarily being equivalent to the dumbass pill I mentioned.

Although many humans do waste their sexual energy-I certainly did in my youth-not everyone is so wasteful or unappreciative.

I have known many happily married couples who have channeled their innate energy into part of their committment to each other.

I agree about joys in the world. It has been some time, but I have experienced great joy and contentment.

Most such times were, however, on the water or in the woods and were usually time spent alone or with four-legged companions.

I am fortunate to observe joy. I spend some time with a 110lb dog who writhes in joy from a good belly scratch. I am trying to place an abandoned dog who recently came to stay with me.

This new dog, this simple mutt; he jumps for joy just to see me. I mean he literally leaps into the air when I approach him-he is so happy to be loved and have a home.

He has moments of complete joy. It is enough for now to dwell on the periphery of happiness.

I anticipate experiencing happiness again.

I think the last few years I've spent in a specific rural area have been the worst example of bad adult behavior I've seen since I lived in a dangerous inner city neighborhood in the Midwest.

I believe that any move from this area will be beneficial. I hope to end up in the woods, but just a couple of hours drive from an urban center where I can interact with people with interests similar to mine.

I may not have read your post correctly, but I dont believe you replied to my question...

...if, as the work of Monroe and others state, that we humans really are celestial beings...

...don't you find the totality of human behavior to be utterly inconsistent with any type of advanced being?

I apply this to myself. Yes, I'm respected in my work, certain people like me, blah blah blah.

I'm full of contradictions and still, at 50, make stupid mistakes in life.

To look in the mirror and think that this form is just an expression of a divine purpose, well, how then can I be so messed up?

Much of my reading states that we have simply forgotten who and what we are. I can understand being forgetful.

I simply can't understand an entire planet of us acting so badly.

The Toltecs say that "a predator has come from the depths of the cosmos to prey upon us" and has given us the mind we use-that it is the "predator's installation" in our minds that causes all this mess.

That is a very interesting and compelling perspective.

Your post contains the text "spiraling out." Is that general wording or a reference to a song lyric?

I do have a plan to relocate, change the type of people I associate with and change careers.

There are diverse afterlife realms and the entrance to these is constrained by vibration. When the spirit has been tolerating immense pain from medical conditions, has a deteriorating terminal disease, or a mental illness, for example. This does not necessarily impair their vibration.

Spirits who suicided might end up in the Sea of Lost Souls or in the Hels but they also may enter the homes of the deceased in the Heavenly Afterlife realms, too.

For example, as a medium I read a woman who had a spirit with her whom ran into a fire to get her cat and died. The grieving father of the deceased girl killed himself. He could not communicate with his deceased daughter but she was at a higher vibration and she could see him and attempt to communicate with him.The daughter explained that he must lift himself that his grief and guilt mired him. Since then, that lesson has been echoed by many spirits. We must forgive ourselves, be forgiven by those alive and deceased and lift our game. If we anchor ourselves with negative emotions like pity, grief, fear,guilt,  hate, rage and revenge then we may find our spirit constrained by our vibration. But when we lift our game in love and forgiveness the shackles are absent and we may obtain any afterlife realm to visit those we love.

Some of the afterlife realms I have projected to include but are not limited to;

The Gates of Death
Summerland Temples of Healing
Afterlife Homes of Deceased
Shamballah
Sea of Lost Souls
Super Etheric
Earthly Plane
Sub Etheric
Lower Planes
Hels
Lake of Fire

I have met spirits who suicided in all of these. I am confident that there is not one realm where all deceased who suicided are constrained.

I think it helps to connect with the spirits who suicided and send them positive healing energies of;
*love
*forgiveness
*joy
*happy memories

When we connect with any spirit it helps us to see and hear them if we can unite with them in joy. Even our genuine grief is a negative emotion which constrains and descends the vibration of energy available.

I love your description of the loves in your life, your dogs.

You said, "I simply can't understand an entire planet of us acting so badly."

Does "a planet of people" act badly, or are there individuals who don't understand their choices, groups who don't have access to resources needed to change their circumstances, people who have not been raised to witness and participate in loving behaviors? Are there many people "acting badly" or are there many people who do good quietly, who suffer silently, who choose a humble life instead of a life of leadership and action?

The people in this world who seek an audience are sometimes bamboozled, sometimes the bamboozlers... to use a humorous word.

Although you are 50, I think you realize that most of those we call adults in this world are still children in many respects. We don't actually live very long, as humans. Once we have stored a lifetime of memories, and had time to sort through them, we realize that we could have made different choices in our lives, but it has all sifted through our fingers.

When I was young I was often depressed and my main goal in life was to learn how to be happy. If someone asked me, and they did, what was my definition of success, I then replied, happiness.

It sounds like your dogs know more about happiness than our human society understands.

We are each others' happiness, if we only knew it. The moments when we know it are real wisdom.


NMM wrote on Jan 5^th, 2013 at 2:00am:

Hmmm, A nonconformist? That is a new moniker for me. Actually, I am quite conservative and traditional. I hope to move to the Pacific Northwest this spring. I disagree with you about sexual energy necesssarily being equivalent to the dumbass pill I mentioned. Although many humans do waste their sexual energy-I certainly did in my youth-not everyone is so wasteful or unappreciative. I have known many happily married couples who have channeled their innate energy into part of their committment to each other. I agree about joys in the world. It has been some time, but I have experienced great joy and contentment. Most such times were, however, on the water or in the woods and were usually time spent alone or with four-legged companions. I am fortunate to observe joy. I spend some time with a 110lb dog who writhes in joy from a good belly scratch. I am trying to place an abandoned dog who recently came to stay with me. This new dog, this simple mutt; he jumps for joy just to see me. I mean he literally leaps into the air when I approach him-he is so happy to be loved and have a home. He has moments of complete joy. It is enough for now to dwell on the periphery of happiness. I anticipate experiencing happiness again. I think the last few years I've spent in a specific rural area have been the worst example of bad adult behavior I've seen since I lived in a dangerous inner city neighborhood in the Midwest. I believe that any move from this area will be beneficial. I hope to end up in the woods, but just a couple of hours drive from an urban center where I can interact with people with interests similar to mine. I may not have read your post correctly, but I dont believe you replied to my question... ...if, as the work of Monroe and others state, that we humans really are celestial beings... ...don't you find the totality of human behavior to be utterly inconsistent with any type of advanced being? I apply this to myself. Yes, I'm respected in my work, certain people like me, blah blah blah. I'm full of contradictions and still, at 50, make stupid mistakes in life. To look in the mirror and think that this form is just an expression of a divine purpose, well, how then can I be so messed up? Much of my reading states that we have simply forgotten who and what we are. I can understand being forgetful. I simply can't understand an entire planet of us acting so badly. The Toltecs say that "a predator has come from the depths of the cosmos to prey upon us" and has given us the mind we use-that it is the "predator's installation" in our minds that causes all this mess. That is a very interesting and compelling perspective. Your post contains the text "spiraling out." Is that general wording or a reference to a song lyric? I do have a plan to relocate, change the type of people I associate with and change careers.

N(h)mm :)

If I were to live in the US, I'm more drawn to New Hampshire or Maine for some reason. Googled the pacific northwest and found some amazing pictures of the nature in the area. Hope your plan works out for you.

Well, I agree that sexual energy isn't always wasted, my point was merely to illustrate, in part, in my opinion, what makes earth a challenge: the bodies. It isn't that someone who's not a rapist got off lucky with a respectful body, it's that they exert more control over body impulses, and not doing something dark like that is as natural as taking a breath.

How does one become advanced? Start out basic. Can't skip this essential part, however silly it looks when you've grown way past the basic. Some get advanced before the others, basics learns from advanced, advanced also learns from basics. Like a pie chart, an incarnation can have a big advanced slice, and still have basic slices in particular areas. That's the case with all flesh walkers I've met at least, the owners of some kind of flaws.

The totality, human behavior, that of celestial beings? I think I get what you're saying.

I have got a cat friend that I'm very fond of. Amazingly kind being, with his own flaws and healthy passionate/strong/masculine sides. What kind of happiness are you anticipating?

ISEE,
Yes, the dogs bring me pleasure.  :)

I don't view them as "my dogs." They are living beings who choose to be with me.

Animals are often impeccable. I mean impeccable in the Toltec sense, not the traditional description. Animals are pure and direct.

I didn't mean to give the impression that I believed every human to be repulsive. Far from it.

I know a few good people now. I have known many in the past. I hope to know many more in the future.



BM
Yes, Maine and the area are very nice. I am reclusive by nature, however, and the northeast has too many people for me.

I have lived and worked in Chicago, St. Louis, Kansas City, Nashville, Sacramento, and Anchorage. I enjoy visiting large cities now, but I need to live in a rural setting.

My anticipation of happiness?

I am changing careers. I was involved in business technology and communications until Y2k and have been working in the Light Construction industry since then.

I don't want to divulge a great deal of personal information about myself. My new career? Well, think along the lines of:

* a consulting engineer
* a product developer
* a technical writer

None of those descriptions provides a singular view of my new career, but I think you understand the direction I am pursuing.

I have had a flexible work schedule in my remodeling business for several years. I need to have the flexibility in my schedule and personal life to work the strange hours my insomnia forces upon me.

I have some good things now. I work 2-3 days per week in construction and the remainder of my time is spent in the woods (I am a blowgun hunter) and in my design studio.

I haven't been on the water in a while, but I am a kayaker.

I have recently begun experimenting with the siesta concept. I take naps and have short sleeping sessions in a hammock.

I seem to be able to rise and function on a few hours sleep much better when suspended than when in bed.

The downside? I like it cold when I sleep-ice cold. My bedroom is unheated and I usually have the window open. I place a mummy style sleeping bag inside a larger bag, bundle up and, eventually, sleep quite deeply.

Waking up, now that is another matter altogether...

...just getting 3-5 hours of sleep per night. That's rough, man.

I can't open the windows in the studio. I have houseplants and such and the studio needs to be at least marginally warm at all times.

The original question was:  Suicides, where do they go?


In a Monroe/Moen perspective they mostly go to Focus 23 - 27. (I've read
about rare exceptions where someone gets stuck in Focus 22, because that
person thinks death is like a long sleep.)

Those who go to Focus 27 will heal rather quickly, after a few months,
if you can use such a time concept as "months".

Those in the BSTs, Focuses 24-26 (mostly Focus 25 nowadays), may
or may not get stuck in a belief "Hell" made of consensus beliefs
(not of any real god). A few may end up in Hollow Heavens or places
in-between like the Alcoholics or the Homeless Town.

Those who end in Focus 23 are often alone or on rare occasions, a few
people (2 or 3 perhaps), with the exception of DeMarcos discoveries;
so called mall people.

If the problem of the suicide is emotionally transferred into the afterlife,
people can continue to torment themselves for some time (years). And here
retrievals can help those suicided get un-stuck.

In my view, those who have suicided are in more pain than other dead people.
I think it is possible that some of them may slowly float into a state where
they leave the "bad" Focus Level and either move to Focus 27 then incarnate or
just don't incarnate and move somewhere else. Some may slowly move from
the lower Focuses and directly re-incarnate.

Others have fulfilled their task and join their I-There.

Your guess is as good as mine. :)

Quote:

Pauli, "The original question was:  Suicides, where do they go?"

Allright daddy, I know it's late, was just talking to someone new to the neighborhood.

NMM,
Best wishes with your plans.

Other than the extreme emotional pain that most suicides feel, I don’t see why they would end up anywhere different than the ordinary run of the mill croaker, STS.  If you’ve ever tried suicide yourself, you know how desperate/devastated someone can feel right before they finally say...enough.

There is no almighty judge somewhere, other than your own self, unless you believe there is.  I can see how guilt might, in some ways, be beneficial for this reality, but it can be a real problem with a lack of any expanded awareness.  So when guilt gets combined with one big honker of a traumatic mind-set, it’s not hard to imagine that such a state might be somewhat challenging to unravel.

I’ve not read this entire thread so please excuse if I repeat, but if you’ve not read the book by Richard Matheson called, “What Dreams May Come”, or watched the movie with Robin Williams, I would highly recommend that you do.  It’s great entertainment, and it’s also quite accurate, I believe.

Suicide can also be another way to simply exit this game.  We all supposedly die from something, so why not blow your head off for the experience.  It’s all experience, so why have a boring run-of-the-mill death each simultaneous time.  And, of course, if it’s not your time, then perhaps you will miss and have to live with half a head for a while longer.

The idea of screwing it up has kept me here through many painful experiences.  I have a friend who jumped out a window because of having lost her children.  Understandable, but she only broke her back and is now living in a wheel chair with horrid pain both physical and emotional.  This can turn you into a lifetime seeker of truth for good or ill.

We all do foolish things. Attempting suicide Can be just one more. SHSS, your argument feels to me to be along the lines of, well, you might as well do it right if you're going to do it. But I get what you're saying, and I hear the compassion in it.

If you're going to talk about a person "blowing their head off", I can speak to that. Having attempted a location/retrieval of a person who committed such a suicide and finding that person in a "hospital" of sorts, being lovingly tended and able to show me something I would not have known otherwise, I have no reason to believe that it is anything but one more way to exit. However, it leaves a lot of pain and unanswered questions for those left behind, aside from a possible better future cut short here.

Having experienced a suicidal depression and having been lucky enough to improve my health and my personal boundaries and my support system (not a fast process), I think it is kind of like driving your car too fast. Likely to end badly for yourself and others. But, that's my experience.

"Suicide" is a word. It's a label. People come in all shapes and sizes and so do their transitions into an afterlife.

If it is an emotional reaction to internal pain and suffering, well, that can be changed. If people can do better, they do, given the right resources.

But, the retrieval I participated in, which wasn't a "retrieval" because the person was "okay" already, where they were in the afterlife, showed me that a suicide isn't necessarily the end of the story. I don't know what that person experienced in his "hospital" setting, as I didn't talk to him personally in the way we do here. More like, the message was that if you are trying to "end it all" that's not gonna happen. Just not gonna happen.

Isee, I’m glad you can see compassion in my post for it is certainly there when it comes to someone hurting so horribly inside that they would choose to end it.  Many of us have been there, no doubt.

I found this dynamite online book that has a few chapters, (5 and 6) on Monroe’s concepts of “Loosh”.  Even though I do not agree with everything this woman has to say, I found the sections on Loosh extremely enlightening.  This could certainly explain much of what suicide and/or human misery and sacrifice may be about.  I will add a small sampling:

http://brontebaxter.wordpress.com/blowing-the-whistle-on-enlightenment-confessions-of-a-new-age-heretic/


“Robert Monroe, in his book “Far Journeys,” writes of contact he had with a light being in an out-of-body experience. (Monroe is arguably the world’s foremost researcher on OBEs; he started an institute with trainee/researchers to scientifically investigate the phenomenon.) Reportedly the light being told Monroe that when humans die, their energy is released and harvested by trans-dimensional beings, who use it to extend their own life spans. The claim is that the universe is a garden created by these beings as their food source.

According to Monroe’s story, animals are intentionally positioned on this planet to feed on plants and on each other, thereby releasing the life force of their victims so it can be harvested. In a predator-prey struggle, exceptional energy is produced in the combatants. The spilling of blood in a fight-to-the-death conflict releases this intense energy, which the light beings call “loosh.” Loosh is also harvested from the loneliness of animals and humans, as well as from the emotions engendered when a parent is forced to defend the life of its young. Another source of loosh is humans’ worship.

According to Monroe’s informant, our creators, the cosmic “energy farmers,” intentionally equipped animals with devices like fangs, claws and super-speed in order to prolong predator-prey combat and thereby produce more loosh. In other words, the greater the suffering, the more life force is spewed from our bodies, and the tastier the energy meal for our creators.

This story told to Monroe (which threw him into a two-week depression) corresponds to reports in some of the world’s oldest scriptures, the Vedas, Upanishads, and Puranas of India. There we read that “the universe is upheld by sacrifice” (Atharva Veda) and that “all who are living (in this world) are the sacrificers. There is none living who does not perform yagya (sacrifice). This body is (created) for sacrifice, and arises out of sacrifice and changes according to sacrifice.” (Garbha Upanishad)”

   The "loosh" rote that Monroe received was still somewhat in his earlier days where he was working out a lot of his own issues, imbalances, misconceptions, etc. It doesn't seem that Bob then, completely understood or properly interpreted that rote.

  That author seems to further misinterpret an already misinterpreted message. 

  Perhaps the original "Loosh" ROTE was about cultivating and growing in Love, and the controllers or what not, are simply our Expanded selves who send parts of themselves into this stream of info known as the physical Earth for specific purposes of growing, expanding, learning, and remembering?

  Re: suicide, seems to depend on the situation and individual involved as to "where" they end up and how long they are there.  Here's the thing, deep down, in almost every one of us at our core, we have a part of ourselves that knows what is constructive or not so.  There is often a certain amount of work and planning on part of many that go into working on an individuals incarnation plans.  Bodies themselves may be a dime a dozen, but there are many more Consciousnesses than bodies that exist that want part of the action here. 

    You don't exist in a vacuum, your life and life plan affects and involves others and even the Whole to some extent.  In a sense, when you ask for or agree to an inphysical life, there is a sort of contract involved and part of that unwritten, but not unspoken contract is to do the best with what you got and to not end your life before the best exit times as planned out by a committee of your own expanded self and various levels of "guidance". 

  There are always exceptions to the rule, like in virtually every area, but that is the general rule of thumb.  Regardless of belief systems or not, deep down in that core part of ourselves, there often is a feeling of having "missed the mark" when we suicide because of it's effects on others and their life plans. It's not necessarily a matter of limited beliefs keeping one stuck, but the essence of who and what we are at a being level and the law that is built into all reality, like attracts and begets like. 

   I had a self in another inphysical life commit suicide, and that rash and limited choice and action has reverberated throughout lifetimes and has been a hindrance and stumbling block to overcome in a number of lifetimes.  How so, well for one, an inclination that when things got challenging that it was better and easier to just leave and depressive feelings in general.  It's taken a lot to get over and in at least a few lifetimes that i know of. 

a channel, I really appreciate your input on the subject of loosh, and, jeez, I hope you’re right.  Monroe appears to have changed his mind on quite a few things from the beginning to the end of his OBE career, and this could be one of them.  I don’t know, but many people now-a-days seem convinced that we are food in some way, that we are not the top of the food chain.

I do believe that we are much more than what seems to be manifesting in these human bodies.  I have wondered sometimes if we are not in some ways feeding our own larger/expanded selves.

I feel very strongly though, that there are not a whole lot of essence consciousness wanting to focus here in earthly human bodies right now.  That idea is truly off for me.  I think there are a lot of people out there, STS, channeling new-age nonsense/wishful thinking, and passing it off as truth.

I read in another of your posts that you have not had any OBE’s.  I’m curious as to where you get your information, for you seem to be so certain of your facts??? 

Having read the entire thread, which took a while...and not directed to anyone in particular:

I always have the urge to pipe up when people make the assumption that depression is a state caused by a reaction to one's circumstances. What if a person's suicidal depression is truly chemical, as in, they are being poisoned by something they are continually exposed to (such as toxic mold,) it is undiagnosed, they cannot live with it any more and choose to suicide just as someone might choose to suicide from intractable physical pain? They aren't escaping from a situation that they need to attend to; they are escaping ongoing intractable pain.

It always bothers me when I see fear-based responses to a query about suicide, where the "Don't Do It!" just leaps out of the fearful person who attempts to transfer their fear to the person they are talking to. When someone tries to transfer fear to me, I know they are under the influence of something I don't want.

Tuba,

What if.. what if.. the mold made me create a fountain of blood in the back of my head. Yes, that means blaming something, not someone, which is at least good for someone, or someone indirectly, AND there's a silent agreement about the fact that the mold is responsible for my actions. Woo-hoo.

It makes sense, the transferal of responsibility. That makes for a carte blanche where you can write yourself off, and the responsibility is withering.

Being a victim (tm) - there's no need to do anything about anything now.

Since the quirks of various parts if the USA were duscussed, let me put in a good word for the rural Pacific Northwest (Washington), to which I moved from Buffalo just over 6 years ago.  I have met  the most surprisingly interesting people here: e. g.
(1) the karate instructor for young Elvis and Chuck Norris.  His walls were plastered with photos of himself as a young man posing in his karate uniform with both stars.
(2) a child actor in his late 80s who had played prominent roles in movies with actors like a very young Katherine Hepburn and Jimmy Stewart. We showed one of his old movies in my church.  His running commentary of his relationship with Hepburn with fascinating.  He had personal letters from her! 
(3) a physicist who helped build hydrogen bombs at Los Alamos and asked me to play with his "nuclear toys" while waiting for dinner (I worried that they were still radioactive (e. g. the sand in the crystal ball turned green through radiation, the rocks exotically reshaped by a bomb).
(4) a man whose funeral I performed: he was one of the first Americans to drive through Hiroshima after its bombing.  After a bulldozer cleared a path through the debris, he drove his captain over the still white-hot ruins.  That night, he was invited by a Japanese family for a dinner (grilled octopus!).  He said it tasted like rubber and he couldn't swallow it until he  chopped it up in small bits that he swallowed whole. 
(5) a lot of stressed Vietnam war vets who liive in the woolds to avoid contact with people.

Don