Hi all,

I have been pondering something lately. If we look at our lives in life review after passing and choose to forgive ourselves for our transgressions...where does Karmic debt come into play?

Thanks for reading,
mj

MJ,
I don't think that forgiving ourselves, while important to our spiritual growth, will affect our karmic debt balance. Karma, in my understanding, is the law of the universe and is immutable. If you have committed acts in this life that tip the balance against you, then forgiving yourself for them won't change the fact that you will pay for it somehow. But you will feel better about it when it happens!

Completely agree with Bardo on this one.  It's important to mention a factor in dealing with our karma relates to our maturity levels and spiritual growth. 

  Immature Consciousnesses often rack up lot's of difficult karma constantly, but often in their lives, they seem to almost skate magically with little to no problems or challenges, yet often contributing to much difficulty or suffering for others. 

  Once they start to become more mature, with definite inner strength, etc., then does their Expanded Self, various Guides, the Elders, etc say, "you know, it's about time you start working off some of that difficult karma you've wracked up.  If you are serious about your spiritual growth back to Source Consciousness and Oneness, this is a way to grow more." 

  Then some poor "probe" gets projected out of the Expanded Self, and gets to work out and redress some of this karma. Often, there is a sarcastic feeling of, "oh yay, i get to be the one." lol, but also a certain amount of sense of pride and accomplishment if it gets done well.

   Forgiveness though, is a big part of the overall healing.  With self and other forgiveness, one can more gracefully and positively handle redressing and balancing one's difficult karma, making the whole process feel a bit lighter in load. 

  Are you feeling guilty about something Mjd? 

Not sure I agree, Bardo.  For every action, there is a reaction, but it can manifest in different ways.  Our present life on earth and any afterlife is usually most affected by our belief system and thoughts.  One person's response to negative karma might be that he or she might need to suffer to make amends.  Another might be that he/she might need to work in the service of helping others for a time. 

The idea that karma is a law dictated to us rather than by us is misguided.  Karma simply is; you reap what you sow; but there are many ways of experiencing this. 

M

Matthew,

I agree.  I like the way you stated that.

There could be many cases in which Karma doesn't need to be balanced in the way that was suggested.

Say a man rapes a woman. After he dies he goes through the life review process and eventually forgives himself. The spirit of the lady he raped now abides in a higher realm, she forgived the man who raped her and doesn't need him to balance out any Karma because there is no Karma to balance out. Many cases might play out in this way.

Another situation, for self serving reasons a man starts a cult that a lot of people get involved with.  After he dies the cult continues. After going through his life review he might feel responsible for the people who are still a part of the cult he started.  If he came back to to Earth (through reincarnation) and tried to stop that cult, could he? Probably not.  If millions of people are effected by the cult, would he have to be responsible for how things play out for each person, or would it be a matter of each of them finding freedom from such a false way of believing and therefore no longer being troubled by it?

Consider things from a Disk perspective. One member of a Disk causes problems for a person. That member's Disk sends out a projection to fix the situation. That projection isn't responsible for what took place in the same way the problem causing projection is responsible. When the issue of debt is considered in this way you get a different perspective.

Plus, there might be situations when somebody other than a problem causer is better suited to fix an unwanted situation. It might be better for all concerned that the problem causer does something else. If forgiveness actually took place this would be okay.

We can see examples of this taking place in this World without factoring in the spirit World. One person causes a problem and somebody else fixes it.

Doc,
I think we are saying the same thing. My point is that karma is a condition, a state. I don't see it as dictated to us, but rather that we, as beings in this multiverse, exist within it. Whether our response is self-forgiveness or revenge, the result will be decided by the variables of karmic action. That does not negate free will, nor does it argue for predestination. Just the adherence to the mechanism put in action by the prime mover.

Matthew-

I agree with you.  The only thing I would add is that grace under certain circumstances can trump karma.

For example, if I have done things for which I later repent and fully understand that what I did was wrong and I seek forgiveness from those I harmed, it's possible.....not assured....that grace can come into play and wipe the karmic slate clean.  If my character has changed and I am no longer the person I once was, I hardly think karma would be needed.

Whether karma is immutable or not depends, I think, on the individual and whether "payback" is the only way the person can fully understand what he did was wrong. 

A loving parent would not insist that his child experience retribution for something the child did unless the child showed no contrition or understanding re. his transgressions.

I don't think a loving creator would be any less forgiving.

R

Bardo,

It is an important distinction, because some might read your post and feel there is a law that will relegate them to a penance simply because it is a "law."  Their belief in that karmic system will cast them into whatever penance they believe is suitable.

For myself, karma is like gravity.  Reaction follows action.  However, knowing that we have a say in our decisions and that beliefs can hinder us or set us free is important.  We are removed from the chain of causation when we remove ourselves from it.  Their is no true "debt" to be paid, other than what the soul feels is right.

Matthew

  Again, i completely agree with Bardo.  What "Karma" really is, is that part of us that knows we are connected to all others within a Oneness.  It's a part of us that feels "bad" or "guilty" when we do not live up to the Law of Love in relation to others.  Karma is not always balanced or redressed in such a literal and direct way of "an eye for an eye, or a tooth for a tooth".   

  Perhaps an experience of my own might illustrate the true nature of Karma.  Around when i was 16 or so, i had a very vivid dream about viewing a very large "Library", and viewing two "men" communicating.  One man, i knew to be part of myself, and the other a "guide" of sorts.  The other man, who appeared older and wise, handed us a large book.  When my other self opened the book, we started viewing a very real looking, 3D movie, which was another life of ours.  As we were watching it, we started to directly experience this other life in fast motion and saw/experienced the main or most important parts of that life.

  A not so nice and Light attuned life of ours.  Long story short, the man was a white trapper/pioneer type in early, early American history.  While walking through the woods, he got mauled by a bear, but the bear didn't completely kill him and left him dying there.  A half Native American, half White woman, who was unusually psychic and also her tribes main "healer", found him and nursed him back to life.  That's mostly what i remembered from the dream.  When the wise, guide type closed the book and looked at us, he asked, "Cayce, don't you think you had the awareness within you at the time?"   We felt a sense of chagrin when he asked us this pointed question.

About a decade later, i met a lady on an astrology forum whom i became friends with and we had a lot of similar beliefs and perspectives about life, and i also found out there were some unusual "coincidences" between us.   One was, that despite that i was living in VA and she in MA, when we started talking and becoming friends, she lived literally about 10 minutes away from where i had previously lived in MA for some years. 

   A couple months into our internet friendship, her husband whom she was really close to, died out of the blue from an accident on the job.  She was devastated and became very depressed and despondent and only started talking and thinking about death, grief, etc. for a long while.   I spent many an hour on the phone with her, listening to her and trying to be there for her and keep her spirits up and help her see things from a more expanded perspective.  It wasn't easy because, her energy became so, so heavy and dark. 

  I cannot begin to describe though, the strong inner sense of duty and responsibility i felt towards her and while other friends abandoned her because they couldn't deal with it anymore, i stuck with her. 

  We decided to meet up in person since i was going to be visiting friends and family up in MA anyways and would be very close to where she was.  When we were hanging out in person, during a lull in our conversation, i started to all of a sudden remember that dream i had had a decade before very vividly.  Not only did i remember the dream, but i started to get vivid impressions filling in the parts that the dream didn't cover. 

I knew that she had been that half Native American, half White woman who was psychic and a healer in that life. I became aware that after she had nursed me back to life, we had begun a romantic relationship. Part of our draw together was that we both didn't feel completely accepted by our respective peoples, she by her Native American tribe and i by my fellow whites.  Anyways, long story short, my ahole self ended up hurting her a lot emotionally in that life.

  After this flood of impressions, i didn't know what to do or say to her. I decided to just kind of feel it out and ask her related questions.  I asked her how she felt about healing, Native American culture, etc.  When she said that she had definite interests in all these areas, i decided to just completely open up and tell her about my earlier dream and the flood of impressions i had received about this other life, though i did not tell her of the specific identity of the first man/self i had viewed in that dream (Edgar Cayce who was talking to the older, wiser, "guide" figure). 

  When i finished telling all this, truly did her mouth "drop" and her face blanch some.  She took some time to collect her feelings and thoughts, and she proceeded to tell me that many years before our friendship, her spiritual mentor- a lady much older than herself decided to get her an unusual birthday present.  Her older friend, had a likewise older friend who had been involved with the A.R.E. for many years and use to give "past life" Readings.  She was retired now from this work, but agreed to give my friend a reading as a favor to their mutual friend. 

   Two lives were most focused and concentrated.  One was when she had been a half white, half Native American woman in the early American period, and she had been an unusual healer and unusually psychic in that life.  She became romantically involved with a white man, who ended up hurting her a lot and she became bitter and grudge holding towards him and to white men in general.  The sensitive very specifically told her, "you two will meet later in this life, for you have unfinished business together." 

  Needless to say, this experience convinced me and her personally of the truth of other lives, of karma, etc.  For, it explained why i felt such an intense duty and responsibility to be there for her during her time of challenge, and in a sense i tried to "nurse her back to life", as she had done to me so long ago, and meanwhile rectify how i had treated her so poorly. 

   We pay for every unkind thought, every unkind and unloving action, not as punishment, but as stimulating growth back to our Wholeness and Oneness.  People don't like to hear this, for they think of all their past and current unloving thoughts and actions in relation to others, and it's a bit overwhelming and upsetting to self to really think about and believe.  I had probably forgiven self by this point, yet i needed to redress this karma by positive and loving interaction. 

P.S., this intensely and holistically verified experience about the truth of other lives, and karma, was also doubly verified, because while i had this dream before i consciously knew it, later on, i found out in researching Edgar Cayce's work more in-depth, that both these lives and specific conditions were outlined in depth for Edgar Cayce and another woman he knew, who had been that half Native American and half White healer, psychic woman that he had had a romantic relationship with and had hurt a lot emotionally. 

   

Doc,
Yes, I concur on the distinction. And I do feel that acts of grace and great spiritual sacrifice may have enormous impacts on karmic balance. Not a straight eye for an eye calculation, as Justin pointed out.

Justin:

Perhaps we should consider what you described through the Disk viewpoint, which shouldn't be too far out of a thing to do considering the owner of this forum.

The Indian lady's Disk and your Disk each had a lifetime where some interpersonal relationships didn't work out so well. So perhaps each Disk sent out another projection with the thought that these projections would work things out.

It might've been possible to work things out in the spirit World, but your Disks wanted to send out some more projections and figured they might as well do so in a way that would enable you and that lady to work out your Disks' psychological issues. They might've had the extra incentive of providing you with a way to find out about Cayce connections. I figure the experiences you described mean a lot to you, even though some people might scoff at them.

In some cases (even Cayce cases ;)) life in this World might be better at providing the emotional learning experiences a soul needs than the spirit World provides.

  Hi Albert,

  Yes, later on, i came to view this experience more in line with Bruce Moen's "Disk concept".  Oh lordy, i am so not a fan of the term of "Indian" in relation to Native American peoples, but, lol, i forgive you.  ;)

  My feeling and experience so far, is that we address and redress Karma according to where it was "created".  If it was created while inphysical, then it needs to be worked out while inphysical.  We can create difficult karma in the nonphysical as well, but often it's much "lighter" in nature--especially when we are in the lighter dimensions. 

This is part of the problem of stuckness here, because this world is so difficult, but we keep coming back, partly some from addiction, and some because of those inner feelings of guilt and karma, but often times, because we lack more full attunement to PUL, while we address and balance some karma in a life, we then turn around and create more.  Kind of a looping cycle, that for most, tends to be hard to fully step out of.  PUL is the only way to do so. 

  In our physical world, this process is particularly difficult to grow out of because of the nature of this world.  It's an extremely challenging and testing one in certain ways.   

   Yes, the above experience i outlined was extremely significant, impacting, and meaningful to me.  Even now, sometimes when thinking about it, it's very emotionally affecting.  It's interesting that not long after this experience, we mutually parted ways on good terms.  We came into each others lives for very specific reasons, and once we had provided the mutual help and interaction, the relationship was no longer necessary. 

Speaking of which, this world, this level is that of emotions...

Ok, this sounds silly, but once, I was on a plane to Boston when I was 16.  I was by myself.  At the time, I probably looked about 13.  A beautiful woman sat down next to me. I felt like I knew her.  I was instantly drawn to her (but then again, boys at 16....).  Anyway, I was shy.  She kept looking at me, and finally said I looked very....familiar.  She felt she knew me.  Did I have an older brother.  We talked, and I told her I was looking at colleges and she mentioned she was a nurse, and that she felt connected to me, but we both agreed that we never could have possibly met, due to our ages, etc. 

I felt that there was some connection, be it disc, karma, past life, whatever.   But that was all.  We didn't stay in touch (it probably would have seemed inappropriate).  But both of us recognized "something" about the other that was - intimate - recognition - the I know you, you are part of me feeling.

Doc,
At 16, were you conceptualizing the disk, karma or other metaphysical reasons for your feeling of connection to this woman? I'm afraid my 16 y/o fantasies would have been limited to the other, more earthy aspects you alluded to. Those connections are very rare, at least for me.

How about what the lady Doc sat next to was feeling?


Bardo wrote on Mar 30^th, 2012 at 2:59pm:

Doc, At 16, were you conceptualizing the disk, karma or other metaphysical reasons for your feeling of connection to this woman? I'm afraid my 16 y/o fantasies would have been limited to the other, more earthy aspects you alluded to. Those connections are very rare, at least for me.

Ok, yeah, so I was a healthy 16-year-old and had normal hormonal attractions, but she stared at me for a while, and then said she couldn't take it anymore, that she knew that we had met somewhere, but that was impossible because she was in her 30s and I was 16.  Did I have an older brother?  She told me, somewhat embarrassed that she felt a connection to me -as if she knew me all my life - and she was not trying to "pick me up," because we didn't exchange numbers and I would have done it in a heartbeat at that age. 

No, there was some deeper connection here.  It would have made a great ballad or country song, but I though it relevant after Justin's story.

M

Ouch. My brain hurts. :D
I'll be back after I think on all this.
Thanks!
mj

Hi MJ,

Karma is simply patterns, tendencies or inclinations that have developed because of our belief systems.  Negative karma can be thought of as lessons not yet learned if the pattern or tendency to react in certain ways are painful.  Each time we are faced with an event or interaction we have a opportunity to learn and grow.  If the interaction is painful we are being offered the opportunity to heal this pain by eliminating the fear from which our negative images and beliefs arise.  Whenever we carry negative images and beliefs about a particular set of circumstances we will likely experience them as painful.  We may also interpret this as punishment, however, the consciousness system is much too efficient and balanced to use punishment.  Rather it brings to us the precise lessons we need to encourage us to grow in ways that are more loving.

Forgiveness, especially self-forgiveness, is a necessary part of this learning process because many times when we have a negative belief about something, its occurrence can bring self-judgment, which in turn can cause debilitating pain.  The only reason we experience an event as punishment is because our belief system tells us it is punishment.  Balancing karmic scales is not punishment.  It simply means learning what you have not yet learned in life experiences of the past that still affect your life in a negative way now.

Each moment of our lives we are continually making choices between love and fear, even when we are not conscious of doing so.  The choice for love is to allow our core essence to shine forth, to radiate out from within.  If we can't make that choice in the moment, then the next choice for love is to accept our human condition as it is and to work through another learning, healing cycle to gain more self awareness.  There are no judgments on which we choose.  A life lesson or healing cycle is an honorable choice.  Our choice to be here in this physical world is a choice to go through these learning cycles willingly.  No old karma or karmic "dept" is forcing us to be here.  Part of the human condition is that we are unable in our state of evolution to always choose to express our core essence.  We don't know how to do that yet.  We haven't yet learned perpetual love, but we are working on it and we all have hope for and desire self-improvement.

Kathy

<<It simply means learning what you have not yet learned in life experiences of the past that still affect your life in a negative way now.>>

Hi Kathy-

Is this a reference to linear reincarnation?  And although that is a bit off thread, is that a belief to which you subscribe?

I don't remember ES saying anything about reincarnation, although his description of how the afterlife works certainly recognizes the reality of cause and effect.

R

  Your experience Matthew, doesn't sound at all silly.


DocM wrote on Mar 30^th, 2012 at 3:24pm:

Ok, yeah, so I was a healthy 16-year-old and had normal hormonal attractions, but she stared at me for a while, and then said she couldn't take it anymore, that she knew that we had met somewhere, but that was impossible because she was in her 30s and I was 16.  Did I have an older brother?  She told me, somewhat embarrassed that she felt a connection to me -as if she knew me all my life - and she was not trying to "pick me up," because we didn't exchange numbers and I would have done it in a heartbeat at that age.  No, there was some deeper connection here.  It would have made a great ballad or country song, but I though it relevant after Justin's story. M

  RE: the part of your quote i highlighted, really does sound that way.  More humorously though, for some reason when i read your posts, the song, "Mrs. Robinson" starts playing in my mind.   :D  ;)

  More seriously (again), it's experiences like you described above that i had, which first made me really think about the reality of other lives, karma, etc.   A few years before i had that dream i mentioned, i started wondering things like, "why do we experience at times, the strong emotional draws or repulsions to others, almost in an automatic way? Why is that we can live with someone for years, but not feel close to them, and yet meet a stranger and feel like we have known them for years, feel really close, etc?"

  Other lives and karma, just made the most sense even then to explain these odd emotional experiences. 

  So yes, your experience doesn't sound at all silly to me, but it was the reaction of the woman to you which makes it most convincing.  Not that i condone it, but other lives and deep "past" emotional connections, perhaps explains why some teachers and students end up together romantically or can't seem to stay apart despite all the back-lash, judgment, condemnation, etc, they receive from almost all those around them?   

  Those emotional ties can be pretty darn powerful, especially if you meet someone with whom you have been really close to many times--especially often in close lover type situations.   Again, i don't condone it, but it does make it seem less overtly crazy, unethical, but a bit more understandable in some ways. 

rondele wrote on Mar 31^st, 2012 at 10:25am:

<<It simply means learning what you have not yet learned in life experiences of the past that still affect your life in a negative way now.>> Hi Kathy- Is this a reference to linear reincarnation?  And although that is a bit off thread, is that a belief to which you subscribe? I don't remember ES saying anything about reincarnation, although his description of how the afterlife works certainly recognizes the reality of cause and effect. R

Hi R,

No I'm not referring to reincarnation.  I do, however, think we are born with certain qualities of consciousness that is the same as the soul's overall quality since we are never truly separated at the core of our being.  We only believe in separation because of the rules/laws of the reality we call earth.

When we're born it is a new life without conscious memory of where we came from. I think it is the circumstances and interactions we go through during our lifetime, and our reactions to them that set up the patterns and tendancies that give us feedback.  Painful feedback pretty much tells us change is needed.  Positive feedback tells us we're on the right track. btw... it is not only us that receives the feedback, but the soul as well.

Kathy

Frank DeMarco's TGU (The Guys Upstairs) and the rest of the folks on the other side he has communicated with have some wonderful, sophisticated and resonant (with me, anyway) explanations relating to all this.  The connections are real and deep, but not reincarnation as we typically think of it.  Frank's writings, both in his books and on his blog, have been pulling together so much I've read and thought about. 

Hi Bardo,

Thanks for your response. Your viewpoint makes sense especially in light of the face that many people can justify and/or rationalize their own choices (thereby excusing themselves) while condemning others for the same or similar behaviors. I eluded to this idea in one of my earlier posts regarding how a person is only "punished" by their own belief system of what is *right* or *wrong.*

Hi Justin,

Thanks for your response. I don't feel guilty about anything, but thanks for asking.

Hi Matthew,

Thanks for your response. I think I lean more toward this idea versus a "standard" one-size-fits-all system of punishment and retribution. As a former child abuse advocate, I saw this quite a bit in the court systems. Each case, while sharing some similarities, had unique factors that caused the outcome to be different for the parties involved. It doesn't mean one is "right" and the other is "wrong," though, just representative of what punishments were appropriate individually versus collectively.

Hi Recoverer,

Thanks for your response. You bring up an interesting example. I am a sexual assault survivor. The man who attacked me was a minister with a wife and children and a church. Due to circumstances in my life, I was not able to effect any kind of support for the assault or consequently losing my job (he was my supervisor). For many years I felt hurt and afraid because I didn't experience the world in such a way that "bad behavior was punished." Everyone who had ever hurt me had basically been excused for their actions.

In something closer to home, my mother got angry with me about something and went into a rage. She picked up a dictionary that was on a nearby table and flung it at me. I ducked and the thick book hit my sister in the face. Somehow, she did not lose her eye, but she had a pretty hefty swollen, bruised eye for about six months. That night my father came home from work and saw my sister's face. He immediately went to find my mother and demanded to know what had happened to my sister's face. My mother, looked at him and very calmly said "I'm sorry. I was trying to hit *her* (they never called me by my name)" My father's anger dissipated almost instantly and he walked away. The lesson I learned from that exchange was that it was okay to hurt me and I wasn't important enough to defend and that is the life I've had with them all these years. Be that as it may, it is the message they gave various people in our lives so I was subjected to being hurt by countless people who knew my parents either didn't care or had "written me off."

Anyway, fast forward about 17 years from my assault and I found the minister's name and mugshot on the sexual offender list. I felt vindicated because at least three other girls had families that cared enough for them to speak up and get him punished through the legal system. By that point, I had learned to control my panic attacks. I had learned to not spend hours trying to plan a way to get home without having to encounter any males. I had released him in my heart and forgave him or, at least, some component of *him.* It took me much longer to forgive my mother for helping to cover it up because he was her friend. Nonetheless, I'm not sure if he feels he did anything wrong (or does a mentally ill sexual predator face the same "review" system as those who are just knowingly and willingly hateful and abusive in that way?) and does serving jail time somehow adjust whatever the review experience will be for him (versus someone who does such a thing and is never caught)? Would it be different if I had committed suicide as a result of what happened or my parents were shamed by society (as happens in various ways in cultures including in the supposedly "advanced" U.S.)? Or, is it some combination of all these factors representative of all the effects and residual effects for the first victim and every person and situation that has been altered as a course of that act upon him/her?

I will write more to everyone else in a bit. Thanks for the great discussion on all this.

Kind regards,
mj

Hi,

Re: some forgiveness for others, the perpetrators who keep cruelty moving into perpetuity --
Don't forget that we could say that ALL predators are mentally ill (deficient) in some way, having probably been victims themselves. So they will receive some healing in the afterlife, according to our beliefs.

Re: our forgiveness for ourselves affecting our own karma, I think it does greatly because we are lessening the load we present to others, our 'dark cloud.' We are not burdening them. We are clearing our own energies by not blocking others'.

My background is quite similar to yours mjd and I don't know how you have cleared so much of your own burden so well. But you have. Do you think that your doing work focussed on the very problems you were facing (ex: as a sexual abuse advocate) helped to clear it? I look forward to your posts, particularly on this thread.

Bets

rondele wrote on Mar 30^th, 2012 at 1:07pm:

Matthew- I agree with you.  The only thing I would add is that grace under certain circumstances can trump karma. For example, if I have done things for which I later repent and fully understand that what I did was wrong and I seek forgiveness from those I harmed, it's possible.....not assured....that grace can come into play and wipe the karmic slate clean.  If my character has changed and I am no longer the person I once was, I hardly think karma would be needed. Whether karma is immutable or not depends, I think, on the individual and whether "payback" is the only way the person can fully understand what he did was wrong.  A loving parent would not insist that his child experience retribution for something the child did unless the child showed no contrition or understanding re. his transgressions. I don't think a loving creator would be any less forgiving. R

Hi Rondele,

Thanks for posting on this thread.
I have some questions for you.

1. Where are you suggesting "grace" comes from?

2. Why wouldn't a loving parent want their child to become self-respecting, law abiding contributing members of society? I'm not saying forcing restitution or retribution is the ONLY way to do this, but sometimes it is.

Loving parents do this all the time. There was a whole movement on it a few decades ago called "Tough Love."

3. Are you referring to a loving creator as in the God of the Bible or another loving creator?

And, if it's true we create our own reality (I don't know how I feel about that because I'm clearly an "over achiever" in jumping into way too many life lessons for one lifetime), then aren't we are own loving creators, as relative to the "Oneness," to some degree?

Kind regards,
mj

betson wrote on Apr 2^nd, 2012 at 7:50am:

Hi, Re: some forgiveness for others, the perpetrators who keep cruelty moving into perpetuity -- Don't forget that we could say that ALL predators are mentally ill (deficient) in some way, having probably been victims themselves. So they will receive some healing in the afterlife, according to our beliefs. Re: our forgiveness for ourselves affecting our own karma, I think it does greatly because we are lessening the load we present to others, our 'dark cloud.' We are not burdening them. We are clearing our own energies by not blocking others'. My background is quite similar to yours mjd and I don't know how you have cleared so much of your own burden so well. But you have. Do you think that your doing work focussed on the very problems you were facing (ex: as a sexual abuse advocate) helped to clear it? I look forward to your posts, particularly on this thread. Bets

Hi Bets,

Thanks for your post. Can you elaborate on what you mean by "clearing it"? in this context? I want to make sure I understand your question before attempting to reply.

Kind regards,
mj

Hi mjd,

Sure -- Clearing as clearing up a cloud of pollution that can be carried within, residues of fear and anger etc from earlier traumas. Or if that doesn't work, then clearing the blockages, like blockages in a river, from trauma so that a flowing spirit can be cleared within us and for connecting with others.

(I take it you don't read the metaphysics books that liken us humans to other energy patterns  :) ) 

Your posts here are such a flow (of ideas, attitudes) out to others. You must be unblocked to be able to do that. I too am much more unblocked than I was before about six years ago when I learned of PUL from these good people at this site. 

So my post had two parts, one dealing with the recently posted forgiveness of perpetrators and one dealing with the thread topic of forgiveness of self.

They seem like two distinct forms of forgiveness, since self-forgiveness is often for a sense of self-guilt coming from others' acts upon us. As in "I must have deserved that, but I don't know why." If we assume our own guilt from others' acts upon us we carry an extra burden/cloud/blockage, it seems to me.

Bets

Lights of Love wrote on Mar 31^st, 2012 at 3:00am:

Hi MJ, Karma is simply patterns, tendencies or inclinations that have developed because of our belief systems.  Negative karma can be thought of as lessons not yet learned if the pattern or tendency to react in certain ways are painful.  Each time we are faced with an event or interaction we have a opportunity to learn and grow.  If the interaction is painful we are being offered the opportunity to heal this pain by eliminating the fear from which our negative images and beliefs arise.  Whenever we carry negative images and beliefs about a particular set of circumstances we will likely experience them as painful.  We may also interpret this as punishment, however, the consciousness system is much too efficient and balanced to use punishment.  Rather it brings to us the precise lessons we need to encourage us to grow in ways that are more loving. Forgiveness, especially self-forgiveness, is a necessary part of this learning process because many times when we have a negative belief about something, its occurrence can bring self-judgment, which in turn can cause debilitating pain.  The only reason we experience an event as punishment is because our belief system tells us it is punishment.  Balancing karmic scales is not punishment.  It simply means learning what you have not yet learned in life experiences of the past that still affect your life in a negative way now. Each moment of our lives we are continually making choices between love and fear, even when we are not conscious of doing so.  The choice for love is to allow our core essence to shine forth, to radiate out from within.  If we can't make that choice in the moment, then the next choice for love is to accept our human condition as it is and to work through another learning, healing cycle to gain more self awareness.  There are no judgments on which we choose.  A life lesson or healing cycle is an honorable choice.  Our choice to be here in this physical world is a choice to go through these learning cycles willingly.  No old karma or karmic "dept" is forcing us to be here.  Part of the human condition is that we are unable in our state of evolution to always choose to express our core essence.  We don't know how to do that yet.  We haven't yet learned perpetual love, but we are working on it and we all have hope for and desire self-improvement. Kathy

Hi Kathy,

I apologize for missing your post. I was trying to walk and chew gum again. lol Seriously, I was scrolling through trying to make sure I acknowledged everybody and somehow zipped past your message. Please forgive me.

Thanks for your response. I am a bit confused by your explanation in that it doesn't seem to account for those of us who were born to abusive parents. I mean, I definitely viewed my childhood experience as quite negative although I do not harbor ill will or anger or hatred toward my parents. If anything, I would define it as sorrow that I was not good enough for them to love. On the other hand, while my sister is not treated as badly as I was, she is emotionally blackmailed quite a bit and tends to rationalize it away. Granted, she was not physically abused the way I was and she was not thrown out with nowhere to go, but she has been emotionally and verbally abused. So, are you saying she would not have "bad" karma simply because she interpreted her experience as not being negative? If so, then doesn't it follow that people who live in denial while overlooking bad things happening to their children or friends or the elderly are creating "good" karma because they simply refuse to interpret the situation at all, therefore it's not translated as a negative experience?

I am breaking up this point because that paragraph was getting long. Many years ago, before I became a parent, I was a fair with my husband. We were walking around going to various booths when I saw something strange to my side. I took a closer look and saw what appeared to be 4-5 teenage boys carrying what appeared to be a dead body. In my infinite inability to walk away from someone being hurt, I told my husband to stay there and watch them while I ran to find some help. I stopped a police officer who was walking with the park manager. I told them what we had seen and took them back to the place where the boys were moving the girl's body. A few minutes later paramedics arrived and began emergency medical intervention and she was conscious before being placed in the back of the ambulance. I have absolutely no doubt she was going to be seriously harmed that night and I felt that I was there at that time in that space and noticed that event and I could not bring myself to just walk away. I translated the event as positive in the sense that we probably prevented her from being gang-raped and/or killed that night. No doubt she was given something to render her helpless against being carried to the back of the courthouse. Again, using your explanation, the boys' karma would probably be negative as I'm sure they were questioned by the police, if not taken into custody. The girl's karma was probably positive in that she was told how close she came to being serious injured or killed that night. The park manager's karma was probably good because she immediately jumped into action when I demanded help and came to thank me for getting involved. I don't know that I had any karma from this event because I was just a bystander. But, if I had seen this event take place and ignored it, I also wouldn't have registered any karma because I didn't interpret it as negative.

Do you see what I'm getting at? I can try to ask my question again if it makes no sense. ;-)

Kind regards,
mj

betson wrote on Apr 2^nd, 2012 at 12:23pm:

Hi mjd, Sure -- Clearing as clearing up a cloud of pollution that can be carried within, residues of fear and anger etc from earlier traumas. Or if that doesn't work, then clearing the blockages, like blockages in a river, from trauma so that a flowing spirit can be cleared within us and for connecting with others. (I take it you don't read the metaphysics books that liken us humans to other energy patterns  :) )  Your posts here are such a flow (of ideas, attitudes) out to others. You must be unblocked to be able to do that. I too am much more unblocked than I was before about six years ago when I learned of PUL from these good people at this site.  So my post had two parts, one dealing with the recently posted forgiveness of perpetrators and one dealing with the thread topic of forgiveness of self. They seem like two distinct forms of forgiveness, since self-forgiveness is often for a sense of self-guilt coming from others' acts upon us. As in "I must have deserved that, but I don't know why." If we assume our own guilt from others' acts upon us we carry an extra burden/cloud/blockage, it seems to me. Bets

Hi Bets,

Thanks for clarifying this for me. Yes, I read metaphysical books, but I wanted to make sure our meaning of "clearing" was basically the same. ;-)

For one, I never experienced a bad situation or negative event and immediately felt like I deserved it or had done anything wrong. My panic disorder was strictly as physiological response in my body as my adrenaline glands started misfiring. I also was not in a position to rely on anyone else for support so I still had to force myself to function in the world (ie. go to work, grocery shopping, college, etc.). Admittedly, I did some of it very poorly and without really "living" during those days, but that was all I had in me at the time so I went through the motions to deal with things the best way I could.

However, I think central to anything I consciously did or did not do during that time, is that I always purposed in my mind that I would not allow someone else to take my self-respect or love for mankind. Yes, he could assault me. Yes, I've been beaten up more than I care to remember. Yes, I've had a gun held to my held. Yes, I've been unjustly fired, but...at the end of the day...the only thing nobody else can take away from me is my spirit. Nobody can make me become hateful or bitter or vengeful or otherwise "not loving toward all mankind."

I was thinking about your question on my drive home tonight and I thought I'd share something my mentor in college told me many moons ago. There was a very pretty woman standing with a man she was obviously in a romantic relationship with. Another man approaches the couple and tells them he is very attracted to the woman and wants to have sex with her. They are a bit shocked, but they did not walk away. The man offers them a million dollars for one night with the wife. They discuss it among themselves and she agrees to do it. The offeror then says that he wants to have sex with her, but he is only willing to pay a hundred dollars. Affronted, the woman exclaims "Hmph! What kind of woman do you think I am?!?!" to which the man replies "We've already established that. Now, we're just negotiating price."  ;D

The moral of the story is there is no "offer" or "circumstance" so big that would allow me to sell my own heart. If I do, then my abusers have won and I refuse to allow that to happen. And, each time I stand up in defense of someone else or help someone get through a day of sorrow or pain, I am grateful for what I've survived because those experiences help me have empathy, compassion and patience for the "walking wounded." I didn't have that when I was the wounded one and I know just how important it is. If I can "stand in the gap" for just one other person, then my pain and suffering have not been in vain.

Kind regards,
mj

Hi MJ

It may be possible that we have differing definitions of Karma, hence the confusion.  In my view it is very popular these days to see only the actions one takes and the results of those actions.  This, in my opinion is not Karma, rather they are moral judgments that people attribute to Karma.  Karma is not so uncomplicated, and it goes much deeper.  It is directly related to our consciousness, our inner being.

I don't think there's a single person that has never been abused or that hasn't abused someone else at one time or another.  The underlying cause for abuse is fear.  The fear of powerlessness is the most common, so the person tries to cover his/her fear with power over someone in a weaker position than they are.  However, this Karmic pattern developed in childhood.  While not all children of parental abuse become abusers themselves, it is common for the abused to become an abuser.  A child, being in a weaker position feels powerless.  The child learns to become a bully in school, may even become like the person that would participate in your example above to gang rape, and if one day has children, in turn will abuse them.  This is a karmic pattern that developed from an underlying fear.  There are innumerable karmic patterns.  The above is only one example, but the negative ones always have one or more underlying fears and it is the fear that needs to be healed in order for the karmic pattern to change.

In my previous post I mentioned another determining factor is the quality of consciousness we are born with.  The abused becomes abuser example above could be a young soul without much experience and therefore has a lower quality of consciousness to work with.  There are what appears to be positive effects to this young soul in that he/she is somewhat successful in covering the fear of powerlessness in that the "power over" another gives limited pleasure, or positive feedback, so he/she will continue in the developed pattern until they begin to understand there are better ways to evolve and thereby release/heal the originating fear that started the karmic pattern in the first place.

All the interactions in our daily lives offer us the opportunity to react from either love or fear.  How we react is mostly dependent upon the quality of our consciousness, the quality of our being.  A person with a higher quality of being will not always, but is likely to react in more loving ways when confronted with an abusive situation.  For example, in the case of parental abuse, a child born with more loving qualities may react completely opposite than the one that would seek power over another.  There would be an innate understanding and a lack of fear deep within that person.  Therefore it is unlikely they would in turn become an abuser, though a different karmic pattern develops.  One that is beneficial to their spiritual growth.

I know I've only barely brushed the surface in this explanation because there are so many possible scenarios, but I hope this is helpful to you, rather than causing more confusion.

Kathy

Lights of Love wrote on Apr 3^rd, 2012 at 11:12am:

Hi MJ... A person with a higher quality of being will not always, but is likely to react in more loving ways when confronted with an abusive situation.  For example, in the case of parental abuse, a child born with more loving qualities may react completely opposite than the one that would seek power over another.  There would be an innate understanding and a lack of fear deep within that person.  Therefore it is unlikely they would in turn become an abuser, though a different karmic pattern develops.  One that is beneficial to their spiritual growth. Kathy

Hi Kathy,

Thanks for explaining this further. I have a better understanding.

I copied the above part of your quote because I find it fascinating. Many years ago I went to a church function and someone was there who expressed interest in being my friend. We started speaking on the phone more regularly and one day she asked me to babysit her infant. I absolutely adore children and said I would. However, she called me later to cancel because someone in the church ministry told her I was seeing a counselor there for my childhood abuse and she heard that "all abusers become abusive." I was very hurt by this assumption because I am living proof that is simply not ALWAYS true. I am not claiming to be perfect, but I have NEVER abused anyone, those who've hurt me or anyone else. I even use paper to scoot bugs outside my house because I don't feel it's right to kill them.

However, I do not view myself as an evolved soul (or I'd have a better handle on life than I do) or an enlightened spirit. I just don't see the value in allowing other people's bad choices or negative behavior to darken my heart.

Kind regards,
mj

Perhaps related to what MJD and Kathy were talking about on their last 2 posts. Years ago I watched a daytime talk show that had 3 family members. A mother who was a KKK member, a daughter who was a KKK member, and a son who wasn't.

Despite being subjected to the same racism based mental abuse as his sister, the son didn't become a racist. He was a good vibes person. It seemed as if his soul was wiser than his sister's soul.

Perhaps there was a synchronicity in this, I hardly ever watched daytime TV back then (I still don't), yet the next time I watched that show sometime later, the same people were on the show.  For the mother and daughter, watching themselves on TV was like looking at themselves in the mirror.  They were able to see how wrong they were with their ignorant racist words.

And, I think that is where I'm getting confused. I can immediately know if something is hurtful or painful for someone else, so I try not to do that. I am an Empath (although, I didn't really know that everyone did not experience the world the way I do). I never understood why we need a "list of rules" to tell us what is okay and what is not. It seems self-explanatory to me.

Again, admittedly, I don't profess to have any of this figured out. I'm glad you all have a better grasp on it to help the rest of us along.

Kind regards,
mj

<<The abused becomes abuser example above could be a young soul without much experience and therefore has a lower quality of consciousness to work with.>>

Kathy-

How does a young soul acquire experience?  I presume you mean that occurs in the spiritual plane and not via multiple earthly incarnations?

R

Hi Rondele,

In my view a soul regardless of "age" has numerous opportunities to gain experience.  The spiritual realm isn't separate from this ELS anymore than it is separate from any one of the many other physical realms that exist.  Is it possible for a soul to choose to incarnate in ELS more than once?  Yes, I think it's possible, however, only if it is determined to provide the best opportunity for growth.  There are many other systems that provide opportunity as well.  Still, I do not think of this as reincarnation.

Someone's consciousness is in a state of continual change.  When we leave this realm at the time of death we enter into other realms where we are met with other opportunities to progress and grow spiritually.  Our conscious awareness changes probably to the point that looking back on our life experience is more like a distant memory and we turn the page and go on to other possibilities whereby one is no longer the same "person" as was known in ELS. 

Kathy

Hi mjd,

As well as soul-age, you seem to have avoided any confusion about who you are (who we all are.)  You (we all) are foremost a soul, a spark of God. You've not let life's experiences keep you from remembering that. I admire you.

Bets

betson wrote on Apr 3^rd, 2012 at 9:11pm:

Hi mjd, As well as soul-age, you seem to have avoided any confusion about who you are (who we all are.)  You (we all) are foremost a soul, a spark of God. You've not let life's experiences keep you from remembering that. I admire you. Bets

Hi Bets,

I just figured out how to see topics that I started. Doh! Thanks for your kind message. I don't know that I've intentionally done anything for this to happen or if I was born missing whatever helps other people put up a stronger veil. This is all I've ever known so I don't know what the other experience is like. Sometimes, I wish I did. It seems like others have it much easier in navigating this plane.

Kind regards,
mj