Hello all,

Two years ago, I found this forum during a very low phase of my life where I had terrible panic attacks for several months because I fear so much that there is no soul and no aferlife.

You all helped me a lot through your kindness and intelligent thoughts and for a time, it all became better although I admit it never went away completely.

Now very recently, my dearly beloved grandmother passed away.This threw me quite a bit. Also, I had an operation.

I was quite sad I had not felt the moment of my grandmothers death at all. And during general anaesthesia when I had the operation, I again (like during two other general anaesthesias in my life), I was not "there" at all. I just did not exist. At least, I do not remember anything.

Thosetwo experiences really brought the fear back. For if it is possible to "not exist" at all, for me, there really is compelling reason to believe that once my brain is gone in death,I will just be "switched off" forever.

I know some of you do not fear that, but for me, it is a very terrible thing and also makes this life meaningless, random and sad. Yes, I know I want to love others and make their life better anyway, but it is still terrible to think there could be no "higher purpose" to anything and I will just not be forever, just as I dont remeber being before being born.

Can you help me out again? Any ideas that could help?

Thank you. And I hoe you do not feel annoyed. This is not meant to be a "prove it" attack, I dont like these either, it is just a plea for help.

Chris

P.s. Sorry for the spelling mistakes, I am on a mobile device

Chrwe,

Anesthestic agents almost always cause retrograde amnesia.  One called Versed and Propofol are notorious.  These days, when doctors perform colonoscopy, they use them, and let me tell you, you are guaranteed to remember nothing of the experience.  Even if the procedure caused discomfort.  That is why, when my time comes for one of these screening procedures, I am going to ask for the lightest sedation possible.  Not that I'm a masochist, but I prefer not to be that "out." 

When we sleep, we are somewhere else, yet we usually carry only early impressions of the dream into memory.  If we write it down immediately on wakening we can hold it, but within minutes after wakening, most dreams are forgotten.  Did we not exist when we were asleep?  I don't think so. 

In order to lose your fear of nonexistence, you have to have some personal experience that proves to you that you are more than your physical body.  Some of the exploration with hemi-sync recommended at TMI or Bruce's exploration methods gives people this personal "knowing." 

For me, it is not an issue.  I am convinced the conscious thought is primary or has primacy, and that the physical world is a secondary process.  And I have medical training, so I know quite a bit about the limits that science and medicine have in interpreting consciousness. 

M

Hello DocM,

Yes, amnesia is what I cling to, too. Still, alzheimer, brain damage (e.g. Clive Wearing)...

I just have such a hard time believing. I feel I know too much. And yet - if there is an afterlife after all, for which I would gladly spend an eternity helping others in need - I know too little. But only if. I cant explain any better.

I explained all my doubts two years ago, so I do not want to expose you all again to this. The last thing I want is shake anyone's belief, I am in my personal hell since I lost mine. I would not owish this on my worst enemy.

Heh, I tried having a personal experience for a year or so. I even hid cards on my wardrobe so I could identify them in an OBE-type of thing and prove to myself there is moree to me than my physical brain. But it didnt work at all. It seems I must be doing something wrong since trying to OBE does not work for me at all :).

Hi Chrwe,

I agree with what Doc wrote.  Also, just using a nice hemi-sync or Metamusic CD for a few days, like during a nap, gives your brain the opportunity to find balance which is great help for balancing emotional states.  The synchronization of both hemispheres of the brain seems to me to be conducive to achieving what you want to experience, some spiritual expanded awareness....but more down to earth than that it also is conducive to mental and physical calming and relaxation which should help you feel more "refreshed" all around.

As far as your OBE attempts, I always suggest that you don't focus on physical proof tactics.  It's the wrong focus.  It's not that it doesn't work, but it shifts your "attention" to the area of proof in a specific form which is too narrow a focus.  Keeping a broader, open mind about OBEs will give you the opportunity to have, recognize, and remember your OBE's. 

We naturally already have them whether we remember them or not.  So your focus of attention should really only be on setting intention to remember your next OBE.  Be persistent, patient, and keep practicing...those 3 "P" words are great.

Quickly, I'd like to share an anesthesia experience I had.  I was in surgery for having a tumor removed from my lung.  Upon first awakening I could hear my parents talking to each other, hear word for word what their conversation was.  It was so clear I just assumed that they were standing in the room I was in.  It made me upset that here I was in this condition, scared, and in pain, and they were just casually talking as if they didn't have a care in the world.  Several minutes later my parents walked up to my bedside, smiled, said hello, the usual.  I asked them why they didn't come to me sooner, why they had just stood there talking about my 5-year-old nephew and how he'd wanted them to set up the camping tent, and how they couldn't remember how to do it, etc.  My parents were shocked and asked how I knew what they had talked about.  I told them I heard them, but they said that was impossible.  The waiting area was on the other side of the hospital....no way that I could have physically heard them!

It was proof enough to me that the effects of the anesthesia had made me have an OBE, even though I didn't feel I had gone anywhere.  I had a similar experience while being under during dental surgery.  I was sound asleep but remained "awake" and aware during the entire procedure.  My proof?  I had stopped breathing and they had to put me on oxygen.  When they told my mom I wasn't breathing on my own, she fainted.  I saw it happen!  When I finally came around I was so concerned about my mom, the first thing I said was, "Is my mom ok?  Why did she faint?"  The dentist was shocked and wondered how in the world I could have known that.  He said I was sound asleep thru that. 

Those were my anesthesia experiences.  You feeling "nothing" as if gone, and not having memory sounds normal and typical.  So I don't think you should feel worry or base beliefs on your "typical" experience. 

I'll send you a PM with some of my personal OBE tips in case you're interesed in trying them. 

:)

  I had an endoscopy once, and when they put me out  it seemed like 2 seconds later I was in the recovery room.  It's like the time in between never existed. But  I was just glad it was over and there was a cure for the problem I had.  Yet years earlier when  I had surgery and I was given ether(I believe) for anesthesia I was in a semi-conscious state during the surgery for a moment where I could sense movement around me, probably dr's and nurses moving around.  It was not an obe, however.  When we dream, we don't always remember our dreams but they are imprinted on our subconscious, I believe.  Dreaming happens whether we remember it or not, and I think this may apply in situations, like fainting, nde's, anesthesia and the like. The most powerful thing that has helped convince me we may be more than our bodies is I once had a feeling that my body was buzzing or vibrating while I was in a trance-like state while writing something.  What I was writing seemed to write itself almost, and it was spiritual in nature.  I  can't find the notebook that had these writings so I can't remember what it said.  I was so amazed and shocked and so full of peace and joy I was about to burst.  Then it stopped like after about 15 minutes. But during that time I literally felt like I was floating(while walking-lol).  I was not scared at all though, I was ecstatic.  I had not been taking drugs or drinking or near death.  It was a pure natural high.  I felt one with everything, even  the night sky!  Since then I've not found out what this was(maybe a pre-obe state?) but I know it wasn't coming from my brain it was coming from my MIND.  And since this experience-and it was 25 years ago-I've felt that my body was heavy and my physical surroundings were"clunky".  I didn't feel this way before my experience.  Something happened to me, something spiritual, that made me feel like maybe there is something else.   Also, when I was young I saw sheets move on a bed by themselves without a fan blowing or a window open.  I tried to tell myself that I didn't really see what  I saw-until my sister told me she saw clothes move in her closet by themselves.  There is no logical reason why clothing or sheets would move by themselves.  This also makes me think there are unseen forces of the spiritual variety-not just our brains driving our life force.  There is no satisfying scientific explanation why something would move without anything visible moving it.  There just isn't.   I pray you have an experience-maybe through meditation-that would help give you peace of mind.  I'm not all the way there myself, but the experiences I had-though not nearly as extraordinary as others-was enough to convince me we are probably not "just" our bodies.

Having thought about this question, this kind of fear, I believe that the 'fear' is real enough, because you feel it. But, think of this, are there not many parts of your life that you do not recall at this moment, that, if I were to give your memory a 'nudge', would come back to you, especially if I were to give you a sensory clue, to stimulate that memory? So, the memory is not really lost. It is there, but merely dormant.

So, rather than fearing that you might not 'exist' at all, perhaps you can transform this fear into the lesser one, that of being in a 'dormant' stage. If you think about it that way, you can look to nature for an example of hope. Bear witness to the transformation of what was a 'poor' creature into a butterfly. How miraculous!

But, a process. So, what you may encounter after death may also be a process, not an ending which is complete, but a new beginning. If you do not entirely understand it, that really does not matter, does it, if the end result is so beautiful? Just a thought.

Hi chrwe,

Did I previously mention  coming out of anesthesia during an operation? But I guess my point will apply to the aftermath of any operation-- how do we come back so readily from your feared "nowhere"? If you think being sedated would send us to nowhere, how do we get back so easily?

When I began to come into consciousness the sounds of the operating room came in waves. They might have been timed with heartbeat/pulse, like lapping waves as the tide recedes. I felt neither nowhere nor here in the present. And yet, tah-dah  :) here I still am.

My point is, dear chrwe, anesthesia sends us into a state that's very easy to move in and out of even though most of us might not understand the principles of it. I believe we can say the same for the afterlife.

Bets

Hello Betson,

how nice to hear of you again :).

Thank you all for your kind answers and thoughts. They really gave me some new lanes to think about. And Vicky, I`ll try again with your kind guidance, although I sometimes think I have some sort of barrier against all intentional OBEs and other paranormal experiences.

Although, in my eyes, there is no such thing as paranormal :) :). Not because it is not possible that things happen that we cannot explain yet, but because everything will have an explanation and cause somewhere, somewhen, and we just don`t know it.

DocM, your comment about just having forgotten everything was very interesting, sometime after that I seemed to remember that I did notice some doctors etc. around me before I truly woke up in the waking room. It could just have been the last impressions before falling "asleep" though.

Chris

Along the anesthesia lines, I once awoke with no memory of any dreams, clearly and wide awake, felt great and everything was fine.  At some point that morning after coffee, I got the sense I was missing something and took a quiet moment in my office, closed my eyes and cleared my head.  All of a sudden an entire scenario ripped through my mind, and it came more clearly than any memory I can recall even about yesterday...I assume it was a somehow delayed lucid dream.  The subject was of a situation which has caused me great pain and it was a view as if I had been a fly on the wall of a pivotal event in that situation, which I have verified was startlingly accurate.  As I mentally poured over the incredible detail I received in that flash of understanding, I remembered almost as clearly as the dream, a being, comfortingly pushing my head back onto the pillow and saying "it's ok, it will be easier in the light of day".  Several weeks earlier I had had a lucid dream which pertained to the same scenario, but illustrating a different event and it had struck in the middle of the night, forcing me to leave my bed and sit up the rest of the night turning over the revelations I had just received...again completely accurate.

I share this with the idea that we get what we need to get as we need it...I needed this information to move on in my life and away from the caustic situation I had been in...the first signal was dramatically disruptive to my life, and the second occurred (apparently) at the same time, but I was somehow directed to receive it at a time of day which would minimize its horrific effect...or at least give me less a sense of hopelessness and more of a feeling of "lets deal with it this way"...something that seems very rare in my nighttime ramblings.

chrwe, it is events like these lucid dreams which, for me, prove that the "me" that is conscious of typing this missive, is of such importance that it cannot and will not be eliminated or turned off upon drawing my last breath.  There is so much more out there and our souls are capable of so much, that to not use each of our lives and the lifetime's worth of developed personality and ego for the experiences and information gained would be pure waste...and I do not see anything from that side being wasted.

Hi chrwe,

Not remembering in totality, an event in our lives, such as during an Anaesthetic, really does not mean you did not exist during that blackout period.

Much of our earthly lives are almost totally forgotten by the time we reach maturity or old age (like me) But those complete blanks in your memory or mine, does not mean we did not exist during those forgotten times/moments

By the time we are sixty or seventy years of age we are almost a completely person , from what we were as a child. But the "child you" really existed and the "you now" really exists

We really do not know what thinking is or what consciousness is. But just because for long or short moments we are not conscious or are thinking, we continue to exist and I believe we continue to exist forever

Love

Alan

Hi Chris,

I'm sorry for your loss. Grandmothers are quite special.

This isn't really an answer related to the afterlife, but more focused on the fear and panic aspect of your question. I, too, deal with panic attacks (related to PTSD) and I've come to learn some coping skills that help minimize the impact of them. Have you ever heard of "stress scripting"? I'll save you the couple thousand dollars tuition (smile). It's basically the idea that we finish out our thought of our fears to see where they lead us so we can develop appropriate and effective responses to various *possible* outcomes.

In this vein, let's say there is nothingness. How does that change the life you are living at this moment in time? What would or could you do differently knowing that was the absolute correct answer? Once you are able to identify that, you will feel less anxiety about the possibility. Does that make sense?

As far as anesthesia goes...I am not a doctor, but I've been under general and local anesthesia and I was a certified anesthesiologist in a veterinary hospital at one time. It is my understanding that anesthesia does not "turn off" the brain. It just lowers the signals in the brain that allow us to feel pain and remember events. This is why we have to have someone else sign all that paperwork when we get discharged from the hospital or outpatient clinic (they don't want anybody coming back saying they don't recall signing it ;-) I am hardly an authority, but I think the effects of anesthesia on the mind/body is more indicative that there is something *more* inside of us. Do you know of any other living thing that can use science in such a way to bring us that close to "shut down" and bring us back, safely? I don't. Historically, allopathic medicine has come a long, long way in just the past 100 years and will certainly continue to advance far beyond our imagination in the next 100 years. Maybe, just maybe, our 3rd or 4th generation descendants will have a better understanding of where our soul actually is when we are put under. Until then, I think it's fair to assume that it's still with us waiting for our physical body to wake up.

Kind regards,
mj

Hello mjd,

Thank you for relaying this idea to me, and I am indeed familiar with the concept. Unfortunately, it helps with every problem in my life and I have always found a solution of some sort except for the concept of this life beng finite in every way (and to my mind, random and senseless if you assume thee is no lasting sould and no reason behind existence). I know many arguments to deal with nothingness. You wont be there to experience it. You wont feel anything. There is no pain. How would one cope with truly living forever? All beings and indeed the univeerse itself share this fate. And so on and so on. I have read many buddhist and atheist texts and talk to smart, kind people. None of that has heped, the concept still gives me panic attacks.  Probably because for almost fourty years, I have been firmly believing that we are here to learn and grow and experience and that when we die, our (indicidual) existence will continue, even though we may forget past experiences for a while. Losing that was, for me, like losing the ground. And it was a quite different life, so the feat has changed my present life a lot :-)

So, this way is not really feasible for me for this particular fear, but I agree that it is a very good technique for all others :-)

Chris

chrwe wrote on Mar 31^st, 2012 at 12:47pm:

I explained all my doubts two years ago, so I do not want to expose you all again to this. The last thing I want is shake anyone's belief, I am in my personal hell since I lost mine. I would not owish this on my worst enemy. Chris

Hi again,

Please tell it to me. I'm not worried about you shaking my beliefs. Please feel free to private message me or I can send you my email address. I want to understand what you are thinking/experiencing so we can figure out a way to help you through this.

Kind regards,
mj

chrwe, you have a pm.

Hi everyone, I am new on this site and just looking at some of the threads and I saw this one. I had to have a colonoscopy at the end of 2010. I was knocked out hilaciously. I remember laying there talking to them in the room and told how to lay and the nurse said something this is a little something to help ease the pressure the next thing i know, i was snapping out of it. Now, one thing I remember right before i came to, was i saw lights. I saw the brightest white light, gold light and greent light. I thought to myself inside there WOW, I DIDN'T WANT TO GO BACK TO REALITY..  IT WAS GOD's LIGHT, I KNEW IT..I HAD SUCH AND UNDERSTANDING OF GOD AT THAT TIME WITH THAT LIGHT THAT IT WAS TOTALLY AMAZING..i didn't want to leave..

When i came to, i started trying to talk to say, I UNDERSTAND GOD PERFECTLY..the light was from God..here i am groggy as can be and trying to talk and the people didn't understand what i was trying to say..

I shall never forget what i saw and felt then, and when I went for my follow up i talking to my doctor and he said YOU WERE SO FUNNY WHEN YOU WOKE UP..but then i told him of what it was i was trying to say and he asked me ARE YOU RELIGIOUS, yes, DID YOU SAY A PRAYER BEFORE YOU WENT UNDER, no , OR BEFORE THAT, no..he looked at me differently then..he knew i experienced something while being under..

but i wanted to share that with you, for there are those things that happen that one does remember when you are knocked out with the drugs..definitely I saw God's light..and it is amazing..i didn't want to come out of things..i wanted to go to the light...