What absolute PROOF is there that GOD exists?  - ANYONE could've written the Bible!! - In years to come, someone might find a "Harry Potter" book, & start worshipping HIM!! lol - So WHAT proof is there?   ;D

Hello Peter:

I figure the only way a person could really know is by spiritual experience.  In order to have such experiences a person might have to change his (or her) definitions of what God is.

That depends how you define "God".
The "God" of the Old Testament seems to be of 7th rank in the Jewish Angelic Hierarchy, so he would not be "THE ONE AND ONLY GOD", but only "a God", the God of the Israelites.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_angelic_hierarchy

Is God a separate being, as described in the Bible? Then I would recommend to forget about him.
If God is not a separate being, then God is All That Is, which is through and through conscious in every tiny particle and even in empty space, and exactly this all-pervading consciousness may be called "God".

Hi,

I think it depends on how you define God/god. I don't necessarily believe in the God of the Bible (it's too contradictory) but I believe there is a universal consciousness that connects us all with absolute morality.

Be that as it may, I posed a similar question on a forum using the example of how my family has reinvented history about my grandmother after she passed away. So, if my grandmother, a person I actually knew and witnessed with my own eyes, can be put on a pedestal and "deified," isn't it possible (and probable) that hundreds of centuries time has caused the same thing to happen with Jesus' story?

Personally, I don't see the point in arguing for/against it. There is no absolute way to prove/disprove it so what's the point. There has been enough division and strife over this issue. It's irrelevant. Live well, treat others the way you want to be treated and live a life of pure, unconditional love. The rest of it is just academic (and tiresome).

Kind regards,
mj

i also thought of that, Jesus post-mortem being deified and put on a pedestal.
reading the bible, he does not seem to be sooo much apart from us, still human, including emotions and flaws.

Yes, Jesus was fully human... and look at all he was able do, the love he taught, and the miracles he performed while being fully human should tell us something about ourselves. If only we truly understood the nature of our being, as he did... the consciousness of this world could certainly be a lot different than what it is.

hi peter I only know from my own experience that God exist.,oneday i was so down,even seriously thinking of suicide,i sat in the church garden planning how i was going to end my life and i was going to do it

At that moment i felt nothing but hate for the whole world,i wanted no part of it anymore,so i decided to go into the church and ask God to forgive for what i was about to do when i reached home.

I sat down in front of Jesus on the cross and i told him ,i could bare it no longer,i could not be in this world any longer,i did not need this world and it did not need me

And then i asked God for forgiveness,i got up and went to go through the door and as i reached the door ,Paul the priest of St Peters church grabbed my arm and said to me,you are going nowhere.

Then we sat down and i told Paul everything that had gone wrong for me divorce hurt pain rejection everything and then he asked me to follow him and he led me to the statue of the mother mary and in front of her statue there were white candles burning,then Paul said a prayer to God to help me with his love and then he placed his hand on my head

Well when he did that,the love that filled my whole body was incredible,i had never in all my life felt love like it ,my whole body was at pure peace and absolutley filled with utter love and i felt at that moment that i was truly at one with God

All the pain and all the hate and suffering i had felt for weeks inside me had gone,it was just replaced completely by love and peace.

Paul hugged me and said he had to help someone else who was crying in the church and as i walked back into the church gardens,everyone i saw go past me,in front of me,i felt nothing but love for these people,i did not know any of them but i loved them,i just felt love only love for everything

As i walked home i felt like my whole soul had been cleansed by God.i have never forgotten this experience and i knew that i had been at one with our dear saviour God.

I have always beleived in God's love and i know he saved me that day.

love and God bless   love juditha

Lights of Love wrote on Mar 6^th, 2012 at 4:09pm:

Yes, Jesus was fully human... and look at all he was able do, the love he taught, and the miracles he performed while being fully human should tell us something about ourselves. If only we truly understood the nature of our being, as he did... the consciousness of this world could certainly be a lot different than what it is.

...and Jesus himself said that we would do greater things than him!
I interpret it meaning that we shall not put him on a pedestal and wait for his second coming and always think of ourselves as incapable of becoming like him, but find our way to our own spiritual growth, yes, leaning onto him, but not for remaining dependent little children, but for realizing  our full potential, as he did, and more! :-)

Yes, but these are ALL spirital things, - it is NOT absolute PROOF!!  Anyone can have "visions" & believe in this & that, but that is NOT proof!! Anyone can visit a church, then say that they feel "uplifted", but that is NOT proof. - The ONLY proof that I ever believe, is what I SEE with my OWN two eyes!!  I never was a "Bible Basher"!! lol   ;D

How can you say that Jesus did this & that? You are only quoting from a book, that ANYONE could have written!! HOW do you know that those "stories" are true? It is only a BOOK!! - As I said before, in years to come, someone might find a "Harry Potter" book, & start believing in HIM!! lol -  I suppose some people have such empty lives, that they have to believe in SOMETHING!! The Bible is as good as any!! lol - I WANT PROOF!!   ;D

Peter,

Nothing in this physical world comes with absolute proof.    Many philosophers have gone over this.  Descartes was one of the most famous.  In the end, he couldn't find proof of the existence of anything but his own mind.  "I think therefore I am" came into being.  One can argue that physical senses are not proof of anything as they have to be interpreted by our consciousness.   So when you and I agree on what the color red looks like, we may "see" it differently in our minds - but we would never know. 

So if sensory data is not proof (since it needs to be interpreted) then nothing is provable by your methods. 

You will only know God if you experience God or God's love.   God is not an anthropomorphic Sky-human with a long flowing white beard.  God is the foundation of our being.  If you can feel that, and know it through your own exploration, that will be all the proof you will ever need.

M

HI Peter and welcome to the Board..

I find your question "short-put", a bit unconscious... but never the less interesting. As if your awaiting just a short a answer as you formulated your question.

I can share "my take on it", but before I do I would like to generate some general heat within your head, love. Simply by asking a few questions to you.

A Person, you encounter, a stranger .... you dont know, they have never said a word to you, you know nothing of them....

Is this person intelligent or is this person daft? You can`t touch "intelligence", its not something you can hold, see, touch, smell. We have to use the methodes which have been "created over time" inorder to measure "it". There had been many many thousands of years ago... where these technics of measurements were not available. I think you take the knowledge of such, for granted right this min.

But what about this perspective. => Someone whom you feel may be intelligent, may be completely daft ...compared to someone I may think is intelligent, or other way around, eh? So now we are at the divingbord of.. "different take on thing" ie. different Realities...different perspective..

The very fact that you asked the question to begin with, or that it was prompted for you to ask is your innerself "begging for Knowledge".. but Dear, you have already identified that "BOOKS" will be BOOKS, handwritten by man and they are certainly sold best due to ingrediant of highest quality of provacation =>Drama ..

So I hand it to you... you are infact intelligent. But please keep in mind not anyone, simply not everyone can be "an author" either. An Author is "inspired to write"...right? As Example: You know a car runs because its tanked with Gas, has a motor and mechanical parts, its not being "inspired" to do so out of seemingly nothingless, its mechanical and thats why it has "limits in its operation".

So lets get to your kern question. I believe several have tried to explain their take on the subject God.You want "proof"? Yet inorder to even first be able to "see", "hear", "touch", "smell" or even "taste" God, you have to be willing to let go of your "mechanical way of thinking". Simply because it "limits" you. Just as a car can never fly.

You will (and I can promise you such...) will "continue" to have plenty of opportunities to achieve your proof of God, providing you are willing to return to your true nature of "listening". Do your homework, open your heart and you will "get it".. ;)

There are many many lessons as to what God is, and the reason why there are so many ways to attain the knowledge is simple. => Because there are many many many different Souls (Students at different levels of learning just as it is in gradeschool, jr. high and high school, college, univer. )

So if I were to tell you go look into the mirror then you at me, your neighbor, the person in another country , put them "all together" and you will see GOD =>you would call it blasphamy! Right? So now we are back to the "perspective issue" I mentioned above. A really nice testimony for me to come to the basics of understanding had been called "Conversations with God"...You can google it.

Maybe once you`ve broadend yourself through that by means of the basics...you`ll be ready for the next step.. =>ALL of Bruces beautiful testimony. You are clearly ready for it.


Can you proove to me that there is NO GOD?

Maybe the soul whom said the word "God" for the very first time was illiterate and really meant "DoG" (god spelled backwards) and imagine how many times you`ve then been mean to God, simply by yellin at your "dog!"  :-?

Hugs
Nanner

Hi Peter and all,

there is no proof! :-)
simple as that

It is easy to prove the non-existence of "God" if its concept is like the one that most Christians believe in, because those concepts of God are full of flaws and contradictions.
Their concepts try to concile the idea of an omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent God with the "God" (hebr.: "Elohim" and/or "Yahweh") of the Jewish Bible, the Torah, or Old Testament. This is not possible, because the OT concept says that there is separation between "God" (actually "Elohim" and/or "Yahweh", the term "God" or "Lord" was injected later and replaced the original terms Elohim and Yahweh, which both never meant an omnipresent God) and the world, the people, the devil, etc. etc., hence God cannot be omnipresent, because if God was omnipresent, then God would be everywhere, so also in everything at all times, there could be no separation between God and anything else then, but that would contradict the beliefs and stories of the OT. Q.E.D. ;-)

If you look beyond the naive concepts of God, then you can find something if you are doing research on your own, with your own psychical means, that is first-hand experience, using your senses.

[Oliver:] That depends how you define "God".
The "God" of the Old Testament seems to be of 7th rank in the Jewish Angelic Hierarchy, so he would not be "THE ONE AND ONLY GOD", but only "a God", the God of the Israelites.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_angelic_hierarchy

Is God a separate being, as described in the Bible? Then I would recommend to forget about him.

Your post illustrates the dangers of substituting online sources like Wikipedia for scholarly reading in the field of biblical studies.  Your sources, Maimonides and Jewish Kabbalah stem from the 11th to the 13th centuries CE and have nothing to do with Old Testament teaching.  As for Peter's  request for "absolute proof, " Matthew has exposed the absurdity of that request aptly and succinctly. 

{Peter:] "How can you say that Jesus did this & that? You are only quoting from a book, that ANYONE could have written!!"

Peter, almost everything you say about the Bible is absurd.  You obviously have not read any scholarly New Testament introduction that makes the case for the authorship and eyewitness connection of the various stories about Jesus.  Nor can you justify your pontifications about omniscience, a concept indemic throughout the Old Testament, despite the earlier crude anthropormorphisms.

@Berserk2:
Be it as it may, I have not checked the validity of the source, I read a lot about Kabbalah long time ago.

But what about this: Reading a common Bible, like the NKJV (I happen to have one), what about the personal appearance of "God" in the OT? And the communications and actions of him? (do I need to get into detail?)
Still the Christian churches try to present their God as a) being omnipresent/omnipotent/omniscient and b) being the God of the OT.
How can anyone successfully overlook the sheer amount of blatant contradictions there?
Or how can one explain away these contradictions? Need a lot of creativity to do so.

So my point is that such a God that is both the God of the OT and omnipresent cannot exist.

I would not say that the God of the OT did not exist.
I would not say that an omnipresent/omnipotent/omniscient God does not exist.
But I do say that they cannot be one and the same!
It is simple, basic, plain logic.
Any attempt to explain it away would incur further logical contradictions and would need more attempts to explain those away etc., futile.

My experiences to discuss this conundrum with Christians were mostly same, they always backed out, stopped discussion, got irritated or angry. Fortunately, we have overcome the ages where heretics get burnt alive - at least I hope so.

But I also found a theological commentary on internet that said that God is not omnipresent. If that is so, then other conundrums would result from it.
If God is not omnipresent, then God is also not omnipotent and omniscient.
Then how would one define the term "God"? A supernatural being? Then there may be more than one God? That would explain the hebrew word "Elohim" (a plural for mighty ones), and that the God Yahweh demanded (or commanded) that the Israelite people shall not have other Gods before him, and he said he is a jealous God.
Approaching the concept of God of the OT from that side, would indicate that Yahweh was probably a specimen of an extraterrestrial race which was technologically more advanced, but still very material/physical, nothing spiritual.
I think that would contradict the commonly accepted notion of God as being spiritual, wouldn't it? So there is no way to concile the idea of a Universal God with the God of the OT.

Can anyone think of a way how the God of the Old Testament could be identical to the Universal God which is by definition omnipresent/omnipotent/omniscient?
If there would be a way out of that conundrum, I would have food for thought for a long while.

You need to escape the clutches of kooky internet sources that almost no scholars would respect and begin with a direct encounter with the relevant texts.  Fo divine omniscience begin with Jeremiah 23:23 and the entire Psalm 139. The Bible presents God as a God of Pure Unconditional Love.  As such, God can appear in visions in regal symbolism.   But the Bible never assumes that those symbolic visions deny His omnipresence. 

Berserk2 wrote on Mar 7^th, 2012 at 6:21pm:

The Bible presents God as a God of Pure Unconditional Love.  As such, God can appear in visions in regal symbolism.

Read the Bible again, the communications between the prohets and Yahweh and/or the Elohim are not "visions in regal symbolism", but immediate physical experiences. The prophets talked face-to-face to Yahweh and the Elohim, they described their encounters in much detail, that is not meant symbolically.
There might have also been some cases of visionary experiences of some prophets, but the concrete physical experiences are in the majority.
It is not scholarly to explain away the things that do not fit in the desired frame by "visions in regal symbolism".
But even if accepting the interpretation of being symbolic whereever God seemed rather nasty in the Bible, then how do you translate God's words and actions in the OT into PUL? Wouldn't PUL use symbolisms of love? Symbols of hatred and fear can't confer meanings of love. 
Please explain how fear can be conducive to love. What is the meaning of being fearful of God? Why shall we fear God? Is fear not antagonistic to love? Could a God that is Pure Unconditional Love want to induce fear?

Hi   we beleive in god,we love him so much and jesus and the holy spirit,without them in our life,we would not have come this far.

Theres one thing here that to us is certain,this planet formed through the collision all those millions of years ago,but this was rock,water etc...

It  was God that put the spirit into every living thing as this planet couldn't do,its just solid mass

we beleive God caused that collision and when the earth was forming ,he put spirit into each living thing,so God had everything to do with the start of life and has ever since,

And when we die,we know that we will go home to the spiritworld and live in Gods world of unconditional love

Because on this earth physical plain,it would be even more crap,without God watching over  it with his love,he's helped us lots of times,he loves us and we love him.

Jesus said"blessed are the poor in spirit,for theirs is the kingdom of God and we know he meant such as us  ,as we have both suffered from depression most of our lives.

love and God bless   love juditha and dianna "the twins"

We are  all  Gods only we dont know it G

george stone wrote on Mar 8^th, 2012 at 7:00pm:

We are  all  Gods only we dont know it G

some do know it ;-)

I recall going through this phase too a long time ago, as I was raised a Christian by parents who were ministers. I came from the background of the baptist, holiness church with people speaking in tongues, seeing visions, shouting and praising God overtly, and many things based on a specific culture that a lot believe is "phoney baloney"....

But like Juditha said, I had some EXTREME down and outs and when I seeked God or some type of "help" from a spiritual perspective, what I experienced was how I knew there was and is a God. That experience is VERY personal, and that is what I believe to be the biggest key to belief. It's not up to me to convince people of the authenticity of my experience, but I do know that I am not "crazy" and it's not something I have ever found a "scientific" or common answer for.

I also think it's silly to attack religion, because religion is no different than what Oliver believes. His view of God is that he is all things and is true love and peace and wholeness and the Creator of all things. Well, popular religion does not say He is NOT that exactly, while going through the trouble of putting him into a specific format. And that to me is all that it is. God in a specific "format". That format does not take away from key factors of seeking and loving God which is morality, love, brotherhood, peace, etc. People spend too much time knocking the "format" as if the principles are really affected, when they are NOT!

I have a profound respect for what Muslims believe, because from a principle point of view, they are not different than me. I made a personal connection to God and strengthened my spiritual self and since then, my life as been flowing in an uncanny direction of peace and prosperity. I too, like Juditha went through a horrific divorce and a family death that made me walk away from church and religion for almost a decade. But I don't think it was a coincidence that coming back to church helped me deal with that extreme adversity.

The difference though is that I come to this site and have to 7 years now and I saw a connection between my love for science, my Christian faith, and the ideas and experiences shared here! I don't separate them. That to me is basically the characteristic's of people expressing intrinsic bigotry or dominance. I am right, YOU are wrong! Well, what if together, we are all right? That is how I look at things. Otherwise, separate, they all have "flaws", so to say one is more valid is stupid to me.

So is God real? TO ME: YES! VERY! Proof? You'd have to live my life. You can have that same proof if you really wanted to seek it. Thinking it is just going to be some book or video that "shows" it is very, very naive and typical of people wanting to find something because there is something missing within them. For most, even if God appeared to them and said "Hey, here I am", they STILL wouldn't believe it. We all sleep and have dreams, right? And the only account of my dreams are what I tell you. You cannot get ANY proof of them, but you know dreams are real. They can be tracked through science, but cannot be DVR'ed and replayed on a 50 inch plasma! So whose to say they are real????

In my opinion, like someone mentioned, proof of the spirit means shedding yourself of pre-conceived notions and ideologies (like "The Bible is JUST a book"...every book you read is just a book. That means EVERYTHING is false, right??) or (If science cannot prove it, yadda yadda, when science cannot prove WHY we are here!), selfishness and self deifying (I think we believe we are better than God or ARE God by the way we think, especially asking Him for proof...lol. And selflessness and seeking God is how you find Love and "proof"), and a closed minded approach (looking into things as a skeptic, instead of objectively, until you are made to be one!). I think only then will you find "proof". If not....keep living your life until what you seek finds you. I know that sounds all mystic and stuff...lol, but I am speaking from EXPERIENCE!

Peter -
  There is very little in our existence that can be 'proved' deductively, besides making some assumptions and then working with that world system (using geometry or calculus, for example).  So if you are looking for / challenging people on this site for a deductive proof, you either won't find it or will be victorious, depending on your motivation.  However, if you're looking for an inductive proof ('it is more likely than not that God exists') then I would say you can have an intelligent discussion with an intelligent theist.  I'm not sure what your motivations are.  But if you're really interested, I'd say watch this youtube debate between a champion of rational thought and possibly the most influential agnostic/athiest of our time, Christopher Hitchens (who recently died and is the author of God is not Great). 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4KBx4vvlbZ8

I could write out 5 reasons why I believe it is more rational to believe that God exists than not (using science and logic, and not the bible), but honestly I don't really want to put in the effort if it won't matter for you; if your heart and mind are closed off and you're just trolling then it's not worth the effort.  If you are interested in possibly the most important issue of existence, then please watch the debate.

I asked God to manifest him/herself psychically in front of me and prove that he/she exists....

And God DID! I quickly grabbed my camera and video taped the whole conversation. It was amazing! God even told me the meaning of life! Then God dissipated and I suddenly realized......

I didn't have the camera recording.

Sorry guys!

Does it matter if God exists or not?
There are beautiful loving spiritual beings who are waiting for us in the spirit realm. When we pass on we will be nurtured, cared for and loved more than our wildest imaginations!!
We can discuss the existence of God once we pass over.
Just my 2 cents.
Peace.

Well yeah, the issue of the existence of God has little to do with the more important issue of whether or not the human consciousness is extinguished by the death of the body.

A more important question would be:

"What absolute PROOF is there that consciousness survives the death of the body?"

A matter of far more immediate concern as God does little to properly prove his/her existence by a massive super mega physical manifestation to everyone in the world simultaneously. ( Complete with full stereo surround sound God talk. )

:D

  ;D

hi i think honestly that the real proof of God is when he placed the spirit in all things,the planet could not do this,its just solid mass,i beleive in evolution,but only God could place the spirit.

i have had an out of body and i seen my spirit,its beautiful,its the colour of pale yellow,i see spirits all the time,i read childrens NDE's and nearly all these children,when asked what God looked like,they have all said the colour blue,children are the most honest little human beings,they say exactly what they see.

My question is "who put the spirit in all living things"my personal answer to that is obvious,it was God,the planet could not do it.

love and God bless  love juditha

So believing in a GOD is all in the mind?  - It's all Fairy Tales? - I've had these discusions with a LOT of Priests, & NONE of them have convinced me otherwise. - It's ALL "Hokay Pokay"!! lol - SOMETHING to believe in, I suppose?  Gotta believe in SOMETHING!!  lol  - I just pity all these, mostly Females, who say that they've been uplifted, - with WHAT may I ask? - I suppose I'll be banned off this site now?  lol   ;D

No, 

No one will ban you for this.  What you fail to get is that we all choose to believe in something.  I could deconstruct Western science and show why at its most basic level, the system is flawed to show any true objective truth at all.  But what good what that do you?  You prefer to dismiss ideas such as the existence of "the mind" or spirit on a different plane of existence than the physical world.  The only thing that may convince you is, after passing away when you find "you" still exist. 

But no, your opinions are welcome if not shared by many, and no one would ban you for these posts as they don't directly insult individual people.

M

I look at it this way. Each of us, if we allow it,  is capabable of being aware of everything that exists within our being. The same is true of higher selves that have multiple incarnations.

If we have this ability, then perhaps the first being that existed has such an ability. Perhaps this being didn't like existing alone and decided to use its own being to create the rest of us. Robert Monroe referred to this being as "The Creator."  Bruce Moen became aware of this being. P.M.H. Atwater became aware of this being in another way. So have others.

I don't like to think of God in the way that fundamentalists do because I believe God is way beyond that fear and worship business. I think of him as my friend and love and respect him as I would love and respect any friend. If God is going to to have someone he can share love and oneness with he would probably view them as friends because it is hard for two beings to share love with each other completely if there is too much of a "you're up there, and I'm down here," kind of thing going on.

I say this, yet I feel gratitude towards God for making my existence possible. Also, I believe that he represents the most wonderful way of existence that is possible so I am loyal to him and what he is trying to accomplish.  If he was trying to accomplish something malicious I wouldn't be loyal to him. Free will is a key factor. We can't be completely loyal to someone or something if we aren't free to decide whether we want to be loyal.

One person asks if I can prove that there is NO god, - Simple!! WHERE IS HE???  lol -  And IS HE a HE, or a SHE, or an IT????  lol - HOW am I to believe in something that is not there?  An ancient book is found, & EVERYONE starts to believe in it!! Seems daft to me.    ;D

So your argument for atheism is an attack on theism.  But your argument for atheism is not a positive argument for atheism.  There isn't a good positive argument for atheism, in fact.  In other words, there is no good, positive reason to believe in atheism other than your assumptions, such as, 'if God existed he would make his existence obvious'.  What if your assumption is wrong?  What if God exists and he doesn't want to make himself obvious?  I can think of good reasons why if God exists he would not want to make his existence obvious.
  Imagine what would happen if miracles were common, and repeatable, and testable - God was obvious, so to speak.  God would become something that would be subject to scientific testing.  But God is a person, we would argue.  So a person's reactions would be subject to testing.  Well God's reactions could be consistent (he will always heal amputees who pray 10 times but not 9) or they could be inconsistent (God particularly likes this one amputee so he will heal him only after 5 prayers).  Science would attempt to describe these cases.  If God was consistent then he would become just an effector of things that is less explained, but something similar to a powerful set of scientific truths.  Would a creator of the universe who is looking for people who will search after him want that?  I would argue no.  I would also say that just because you assume God would relate this way doesn't mean he chooses to relate this way with moral agents.  Well what if God was inconsistent?  Then the universe would simply have a lot of uncertainty in it that would undermine cause and effect.  If cause and effect break down, through either case, then real moral choices and consequences break down.
  God clearly values free will to a great degree because He allows people to make evil choices and does not stop them (which is another discussion).  So for God to allow cause and effect to break down, and as a consequence ethics to become meaningless, undermines the whole point of existence.  He has given us freedom to see what we will do with it.  If He wrote the 10 commandments across the sky then he would reduce your free will and reduce the significance of what life is like, when we are free to make good or evil choices, with a fair amount of freedom.
  Once again, there are 5 good reasons why I think God exists, and none of that depends on the bible.  William Lane Craig argues more effectively for these reasons than I do, and so if you really are curious you should check out those debates that I've linked above.  But it does seem like you are just trolling; if you were really searching you would have taken the time / energy to watch that and respond to all of the points made by the people on this board by now.
  For my 5 good arguments (the same that are in the debate that I linked earlier), you have none.  I mean it.  You have no good positive rational reason to argue that God does not exist other than an assumption.  An assumption is not proof!  So to answer your original question; I have 5 good reasons (argued in the debate I linked) that make it more likely than not that God exists, and logically you have none other than an assumption.

I wonder why your asking Peter? Do you personally need some sort of proof? Are you on some sort of a quest in spirituality? I hope you find whatever your looking for, but if you looking to find answers here, I suggest you look inside instead. None of us have the one answer. Except perhaps for ourselves. So good luck to you. If you come up with any questions about afterlife knowledge you might find some direction or at least people who are willing to listen to your ideas and thoughts.

Berserk2 wrote on Mar 7^th, 2012 at 6:21pm:

You need to escape the clutches of kooky internet sources that almost no scholars would respect and begin with a direct encounter with the relevant texts.  Fo divine omniscience begin with Jeremiah 23:23 and the entire Psalm 139. The Bible presents God as a God of Pure Unconditional Love.  As such, God can appear in visions in regal symbolism.   But the Bible never assumes that those symbolic visions deny His omnipresence.

@Berserk2: "For divine omniscience begin with Jeremiah 23:23 and the entire Psalm 139. The Bible presents God as a God of Pure Unconditional Love."

So what are you, Don? A 'Cafeteria Christian'...Pick and choose what you like from the Old Testament Bible and reject the rest?

"God of Jesus: "God is love." (1 John 4:16)
God of Moses:  Put to death men and women, children and infants. (1 Sam. 15:2-3)

God of Jesus:        "Love does no harm to its neighbor" (Rom. 13:10)
God of Moses:      Struck down all the firstborn in Egypt. (Exod. 12:29)

God of Jesus:        "Love is patient, love is kind." (1 Cor. 13:4)
God of Moses:      "Kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man" (Num. 31:17)

God of Jesus:        "Love comes from God." (1 John 4:7)
God of Moses:     "He totally destroyed all who breathed, just as the Lord, the God of Isreal, had commanded." (Josh. 10:40)

God of Jesus:        The devil was a murderer from the beginning. (John 8:44)
God of Moses:      "Slaughter old men, young men and maidens, women and children" (Ezek. 9:6)

God of Jesus:        "Your enemy the devil prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour." (1 Peter 5:8)
God of Moses:      "Like a lion I will devour them." (Hosea 13:8)

God of Jesus:        Anyone who does not love his brother is of the devil.  (1 John 3:10)
God of Moses:      "Go back and forth killing your brother and friend and neighbor" (Exod. 32:27)

God of Jesus:        The devil is a liar and the father of lies. (John 8:44)
God of Moses:     Put a lying spirit in the mouths of all their prophets. (1 Kings 22:23)

God of Jesus:        "The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy." (John 10:10)
God of Moses:      "Pursue, kill and completely destroy them." (Jer. 50:21)

God of Jesus:        "He who does what is sinful is of the devil." (1 John 3:8)
God of Moses:      "Do not leave alive anything that breathes." (Deut. 20:16)

God of Jesus:        "Deliver us from the evil one." (Matt. 6:13)
God of Moses:      "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things." (Isaiah 45:6-7)

God of Jesus:        Oaths come from the evil one." (Matt. 5:37)
God of Moses:      "I promised them on oath" (Deut. 31:23)

God of Jesus:        "God so loved the world" (John 3:16)
God of Moses:       Wiped mankind from the face of the earth. (Gen. 6:7)

God of Jesus:        "The ruler of this world is judged." (John 16:11)
God of Moses:      King of all the earth (Psalm 47:7)

God of Jesus:        "Love your enemies" (Luke 6:27-28)
God of Moses:        "Treat the Midianites as enemies and kill them." (Num. 25:16-17)

God of Jesus:        Love is not easily angered. (1 Cor. 13:5)
God of Moses:     "Kill them and hang them ..so that the Lord's fierce anger may turn away from Israel." (Num. 25:4)

God of Jesus:        The acts of the sinful nature includes jealousy. (Gal. 5:19)
God of Moses:     "The Lord, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God." (Exod. 34:14)

God of Jesus:        "Your Father is merciful" (Luke 6:36)
God of Moses:     "Destroy them totally ..show them no mercy" (Deut. 7:2)

God of Jesus:        "Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love." (1 John 4:8)
God of Moses:     "Kill without showing pity or compassion" (Ezek. 9:5)

God of Jesus:        Wants all men to be saved. (1 Tim. 2:3-4)
God of Moses:      Creates the wicked for a day of destruction. (Prov. 16:4)

God of Jesus:        "Do not steal" (Matt. 19:18)
God of Moses:      "You may carry off their plunder and livestock for yourselves" (Josh. 8:2)

God of Jesus:        "Do not commit adultery" (Matt. 19:18)
God of Moses:      "I will take your wives and give them to one who is close to you" (2 Sam. 12:11)

God of Jesus:        "Do not murder" (Matt. 5:21)
God of Moses:      "I will kill your firstborn son." (Exod. 4:23)

God of Jesus        "No good tree bears bad fruit." (Luke 6:43)
God of Moses:     The evil spirit sent from God left him. (1 Sam. 16:23)

God of Jesus:        "The fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace" (Gal. 5:22-23)
God of Moses:      "I will send wild animals against you, and they will rob you of your children" (Lev. 26:22)

God of Jesus:        Let all God's angels worship him Jesus. (Heb. 1:6)
God of Moses:     "Do not worship any other god." (Exod. 34:14)

God of Jesus:        "You are gods" (John 10:34)
God of Moses:      "There is no god but me." (Deut. 32:39)

God of Jesus:        "Glorify me [Jesus] in your presence" (John 17:5)
God of Moses:      "I will not give my glory to another" (Isaiah 42:8)

God of Jesus:        "The blind receive sight, the lame walk" (Matt. 11:5)
God of Moses:      "Who makes him deaf or mute? Who ..makes him blind? Is it not I, the Lord?" (Exod. 4:11)

God of Jesus:        "The Father judges no one" (John 5:22)
God of Moses:      "I will judge you according to your conduct" (Ezek. 7:3)

God of Jesus:        "For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone" (James 1:13)
God of Moses:      Tempted Abraham. (Gen. 22:1)

God of Jesus:        Is not a God of confusion but of peace. (1 Cor. 14:33)
God of Moses:       Confused the language of the whole world. (Gen. 11:9)

God of Jesus:        "We love because he first loved us." (1 John 4:19)
God of Moses:       Hates all who do wrong. (Psalm 5:5)

God of Jesus:        "It is I. Don't be afraid." (John 6:20)
God of Moses:       "Should you not fear me? Should you not tremble in my presence?" (Jer. 5:22)

God of Jesus:        "God of peace" (Rom. 15:33)
God of Moses:      "Man of war" (Exod. 15:3)
      
   

It is not ' do you believe in God' ? but 'in which God do you believe' ? Even Richard Dawkins believes in God its just that his is better known as 'the laws of nature' or 'the scientific method'. What is the nature of God that is the real question ...

<<I feel gratitude towards God for making my existence possible. Also, I believe that he represents the most wonderful way of existence that is possible so I am loyal to him and what he is trying to accomplish.  If he was trying to accomplish something malicious I wouldn't be loyal to him. Free will is a key factor. We can't be completely loyal to someone or something if we aren't free to decide whether we want to be loyal.>>

Albert- Excellent post!  You have spoken volumes of wisdom in this short paragraph.

We have already won the lottery by being born as conscious human beings in His existence. 

And yes, without free will the whole thing would be meaningless.

You and ES are of one mind and message regarding this key truth.

R

 

Thank you Roger.


rondele wrote on Mar 14^th, 2012 at 2:39pm:

<<I feel gratitude towards God for making my existence possible. Also, I believe that he represents the most wonderful way of existence that is possible so I am loyal to him and what he is trying to accomplish.  If he was trying to accomplish something malicious I wouldn't be loyal to him. Free will is a key factor. We can't be completely loyal to someone or something if we aren't free to decide whether we want to be loyal.>> Albert- Excellent post!  You have spoken volumes of wisdom in this short paragraph. We have already won the lottery by being born as conscious human beings in His existence.  And yes, without free will the whole thing would be meaningless. You and ES are of one mind and message regarding this key truth. R

pratekya wrote on Mar 13^th, 2012 at 3:54pm:

So your argument for atheism is an attack on theism.  But your argument for atheism is not a positive argument for atheism.  There isn't a good positive argument for atheism, in fact.  In other words, there is no good, positive reason to believe in atheism other than your assumptions, such as, 'if God existed he would make his existence obvious'.  What if your assumption is wrong?  What if God exists and he doesn't want to make himself obvious?  I can think of good reasons why if God exists he would not want to make his existence obvious.   Imagine what would happen if miracles were common, and repeatable, and testable - God was obvious, so to speak.  God would become something that would be subject to scientific testing.  But God is a person, we would argue.  So a person's reactions would be subject to testing.  Well God's reactions could be consistent (he will always heal amputees who pray 10 times but not 9) or they could be inconsistent (God particularly likes this one amputee so he will heal him only after 5 prayers).  Science would attempt to describe these cases.  If God was consistent then he would become just an effector of things that is less explained, but something similar to a powerful set of scientific truths.  Would a creator of the universe who is looking for people who will search after him want that?  I would argue no.  I would also say that just because you assume God would relate this way doesn't mean he chooses to relate this way with moral agents.  Well what if God was inconsistent?  Then the universe would simply have a lot of uncertainty in it that would undermine cause and effect.  If cause and effect break down, through either case, then real moral choices and consequences break down.   God clearly values free will to a great degree because He allows people to make evil choices and does not stop them (which is another discussion).  So for God to allow cause and effect to break down, and as a consequence ethics to become meaningless, undermines the whole point of existence.  He has given us freedom to see what we will do with it.  If He wrote the 10 commandments across the sky then he would reduce your free will and reduce the significance of what life is like, when we are free to make good or evil choices, with a fair amount of freedom.   Once again, there are 5 good reasons why I think God exists, and none of that depends on the bible.  William Lane Craig argues more effectively for these reasons than I do, and so if you really are curious you should check out those debates that I've linked above.  But it does seem like you are just trolling; if you were really searching you would have taken the time / energy to watch that and respond to all of the points made by the people on this board by now.   For my 5 good arguments (the same that are in the debate that I linked earlier), you have none.  I mean it.  You have no good positive rational reason to argue that God does not exist other than an assumption.  An assumption is not proof!  So to answer your original question; I have 5 good reasons (argued in the debate I linked) that make it more likely than not that God exists, and logically you have none other than an assumption.

Nice post...

But as I see it, someone comes in and asks some generalized question to basically make a mockery of an actual answer or at least an idea, that everyone else wholeheartedly attempts to answer. And the response is "it's all fake, blobitty blah".....

So really, what was the point if it wasn't something you REALLY wanted information about to consider. That is trolling and in a lot of similar arguments, a problem with these types of discussions.

You never wanted to answer...even if you were given one. You just wanted to be pretentious or stroke your own ego. Which is perfectly fine, but not sure why really....

Just reminds me of my son doing the "but why" thing to every single question I answer....

hi This is beautiful,i love god jesus and the holy spirit so much,without them in my life,i could not keep going.This puts so much peace in your soul,i listen to it every morning i get up.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S7_ufSuOQ3w&feature=related

love and God bless  love juditha x

The way I see it intellectual arguments for and against the existence of God will always fall flat- with every unverifable argument having an equally unverifable counter-argument. Put it this way there are eminent professors with impeccable credentials who believe in a purposive universe and equally eminent professors who don't; this has been going on for centuries/millennia. This suggests to me that human intellectual rationalism is not the right tool for the job.

Since we can't rationally proof or disproof I believe other criteria are needed. I suggest that a  pragmatic approach (as championed by William James) could fulfil that role. In other words which belief leads us to the happier, more fulfilled life, which supports the greatest spiritual growth, reduces conflict, helps us behave better to our fellow beings etc. .... the answer may be different for different people.

KarmaLars makes the simplistic mistake of the fundamentalists in that rather than taking the bible as a holy text written by men, to inspire men and women with stories and analogies, he takes it word for word as if some cosmic white bearded man on a throne is making these staements.  Of course in that context, contradictions abound, and so come the barbaric analogies created around ancient laws man made which were man-inspired and not God inspired.

Anyone who thinks that the entire old testament was written by God word for word should examine the text.  It is a long text full of passages, psalms to God, some boring passages of who begat who....

No, to those who are open to it, the bible is a holy book written by man, inspired by God, full of stories and analogies with which to guide us to live by the golden rule.  Seen in that light, no one will be surprised by passages referencing the laws of the men who wrote it, with regard to barbarism, as the world was a barbaric place back then.  Yet the code to live by, the Ten commandments, in general contains the first real codified code of "values" which, in general led one to live in a loving way. 

Of course none of this has to do with a proof on the existence of God.  But to me, proof of this seems silly.  I see God manifest in everything; from the joy to tragedy, from the teeming world in which we live where there is an obvious universal force to grow, evolve and show intelligence.  There is a common force of love which is the underpinning of our consciousness.  This all comes from God.  From my point of view then it is silly to ask for proof.  Proof of what?  The proof is all around you.  Those who look for proof of an anthropomorphic Sky Father sitting on a chair throwing thunder bolts will never find it.  But that image of God is, in my opinion flawed in its limitations.

Matthew

Harry Potter inspired me more than the bible hands down.
;D

DocM wrote on Mar 16^th, 2012 at 7:11am:

KarmaLars makes the simplistic mistake of the fundamentalists in that rather than taking the bible as a holy text written by men, to inspire men and women with stories and analogies, he takes it word for word as if some cosmic white bearded man on a throne is making these staements.  Of course in that context, contradictions abound, and so come the barbaric analogies created around ancient laws man made which were man-inspired and not God inspired. Anyone who thinks that the entire old testament was written by God word for word should examine the text.  It is a long text full of passages, psalms to God, some boring passages of who begat who.... No, to those who are open to it, the bible is a holy book written by man, inspired by God, full of stories and analogies with which to guide us to live by the golden rule.  Seen in that light, no one will be surprised by passages referencing the laws of the men who wrote it, with regard to barbarism, as the world was a barbaric place back then.  Yet the code to live by, the Ten commandments, in general contains the first real codified code of "values" which, in general led one to live in a loving way.  Of course none of this has to do with a proof on the existence of God.  But to me, proof of this seems silly.  I see God manifest in everything; from the joy to tragedy, from the teeming world in which we live where there is an obvious universal force to grow, evolve and show intelligence.  There is a common force of love which is the underpinning of our consciousness.  This all comes from God.  From my point of view then it is silly to ask for proof.  Proof of what?  The proof is all around you.  Those who look for proof of an anthropomorphic Sky Father sitting on a chair throwing thunder bolts will never find it.  But that image of God is, in my opinion flawed in its limitations. Matthew

Hi Matthew I agree God is not some Father Christmass sitting on a throne waiting to throw us into hell if we dare to disagree with him,

However many many great people believe/believed in God as does the great majority of the human race

The angry atheist Richard Dawking recently changed his position on whether God existed

See

http://pjmedia.com/lifestyle/2012/02/27/6-varieties-of-the-agnostic-experience/

Religion News Service
LONDON (RNS)

A controversial Oxford University professor billed by many as the world's "most famous atheist" now says he is not 100 percent sure that God doesn't exist -- but just barely.

In a 100-minute debate with Archbishop of Canterbury Rowan Williams, Richard Dawkins surprised his online and theater audiences by conceding a personal chink of doubt about his conviction that there is no such thing as a creator.
But, to the amusement of the archbishop and others, the evolutionary biologist swiftly added that he was "6.9 out of seven" certain of his long-standing atheist beliefs.

Replying to moderator Anthony Kenny, a noted English philosopher, Dawkins said, “I think the probability of a supernatural creator existing (is) very, very low.”

My comments
I wonder if Dawkins is also uncertain whether he, himself, exists.

The individual deflects blame to religion when they should target the hypocrites themselves. But enough time out in the “real world” reveals human nature unchecked as the universal poison of all endeavors.

mystery, but no doubt remains that worshipping the abstract, faceless god of ethical monotheism makes people better. Life is happier, more comfortable,

Atheism is a fiction. No one can say with any certainty that “there is no god”. To make such a statement and believe it would require omniscience possessed only by deity- a delicious irony, is it not? One can believe there is no god, but it is just that, an article of faith every bit as much as the most ardent believer in Christ, Allah, Shiva or little green men.

Whether God exists and more beautiful when we all agree to pretend that life matters.

Well, in regards to proof I always donate my money to God like a good Christian.

I take my money.....

Throw it up into the sky.....

And whatever God wants,

He keeps.

recoverer wrote on Mar 6^th, 2012 at 2:15pm:

Hello Peter: I figure the only way a person could really know is by spiritual experience.  In order to have such experiences a person might have to change his (or her) definitions of what God is.

Hi Recoverer after a long time!

Below is a letter I wrote some years ago to my atheist brother (Sibling) Roger


Below is a letter to my Atheistic sibling brother Roger I wrote some time ago on this exact subject

Dear Roger, I see you have found reason for living in this our physical mortal life, while we are on this earth, as your bike trip indicates to me. But how can you be so sure there is nothing beyond this life? That there might be a "loving God". Life after death remains unfortunately something neither I, nor anyone else, can ever prove to you for sure. I, however, strongly believe we continue to exist on in some form or other in dimensions of mind boggling unimaginable purpose, beauty and glory, and that our consciousness self continues to exist eternally after death.

Otherwise our earthly mortal lives, no matter what we do, are a vain brief fleeting moment in eternity that it is entirely without meaning purpose or reason.

Have you ever thought that to be an absolute atheist is much much more difficult be than to be one who believes in a creator, as true atheists have to explain and rationalise away to themselves and others, that everything that exists just popped out of nowhere, from nothingness, into a vacuum of dark nothingness, became light time and energy morphing finally, without reason or purpose, into the something that we have all around us.

All existence including mysterious life and intelligence thus evolving mindlessly, by nothing more than random chance. Therefore, to believe that nothing simple created nothing, in the distant past is to me the most ridiculous of premises.

What is life and how did the awesome colossal almost infinitely complex D.N.A molecule blue print of life "(evolve)" so blindingly quickly, in the very short time it did, in relative infinite cosmological time scale of eternity, if there were no intelligent designer behind it?

If for instance we took a hypothetical analogy of millions of Boeing 747 airplanes, full of bricks, mortar and water, and dropped all this, at random upon the earth for ten thousand billion years, would the result ever be the one of the glorious building constructions we see all around us, such as the wonderful beautiful Taj Mahal or the Sydney Opera house that was created, designed and built by mere mortal humanity? Do these constructions of man change or evolve by themselves over time? No they decay and go back to chaos.

Does life that needs to change or adapt just say to itself and mindlessly command its own D.N.A. molecule,, to reconfigure to suit the new environment and thus form new type life form, to meet new conditions?. Or does something else such as a higher intelligent power that sees the need and brings about the change? The latter case is to me very more likely to any thinking person.

But atheists make the case and would have one believe that all that exists, including our mighty vast and infinitely complex and unimaginable beautiful universe and wonderful blue water world of life earth, came into existence out of nothing, in just such a random act of mindless chance. This belief leads one to a vain purposeless life without moral absolutes we see in the evil wicked world all around us today.

Our breathtakingly beautiful universe is expanding constantly and must, therefore, have had definite beginning, in the far distant past. If you read in your dictionary that an agnostic believes no one can prove there is a god, just like no one can prove the opposite that there is no god.

To me this makes more sense than been an outright atheist who bluntly states as a definite fact that there is definitely and absolutely as fact no god or intelligent creator. The breathtaking wonder and beauty we see all around us does not to me equate with an evil uncaring god but a creator of infinite love and patience�.

My conclusion as an amateur astronomer leaves me with the unshakable belief that an Awesome Intelligence is behind the creation of the universe and this same mighty intelligence keeps the universe going. "GOD EXISTS" As you go on this very long bike ride through Australia you will feel the cool wind that cools your body and gives you life. You will drink of that most wonderful and unique transparent substance water that quenches your thirst, see the white clouds of day that sometimes grey with the promise coming rain, beneath the great dome of daily blue blue skies. Your body will constantly be invigorated, although sometimes so very tired, as you push on and continue your apparent journey through long roads of straight and mountainous passes, into the realms of apparent infinite eternity. Your mind renewed as never before as you travel the long path of pristine nature that is not yet contaminated by the evil of man.

Look at the glorious beauty of the universe, that on a micro scale, is reflected in that great and beautiful island of Australia, the long desolate silent plains, the mountains of breathtaking beauty, the faithful sun than rises and sets every morning and night in glorious red to warm your skin and give light, life to your body and sight to your eyes. The green green grass and trees all around you as you cycle through this wonder land of light and silence, with the soft sound of birds singing in harmony with other soft animals noises. The feel of wind upon your skin and the joy as you rest hungry and partake of the precious nourishment supplied by mother earth. The night sky ablaze with infinite stars and glorious never-ending galaxies, the heavens declare the glory of God�. Then tell me there is not an equally beautiful creative mind behind all of this peace glory and unimaginable beauty, beyond anything you have felt up to now as you progress towards your destination on your bicycle. Only humanity is full of greed, selfishness and evil, something that does not exist anywhere in nature. Again this creation of beauty and glorious wonder equates to an equally beautiful infinite eternal creative mind.
.

Our breathtakingly beautiful astounding universe is held together and governed by precise exact infinitely accurate fundamentals laws or constants, such as, velocity of light, electromagnetic interaction constant, gravitational constant, to name only a few. (Laws that according to the atheists that have come about illogically without a Law Giver) If these fundamental constants differed, even by an infantilism fraction, the universe, humanity and all life would simple not exist? The universe is also expanding constantly and must have had a beginning point in the far distant past. Something with a beginning has need of a Creator I call this something God�. Why do I put so much emphasis on a beginning? It is due to the fact that without a beginning the concept of time would be non existent as there could never be a start point in time to and we could never have reached the point of time we have in an infinite eternal universe. Will the universe ever end? Science says yes it is going to end due to the fact that the universe is finite and subject to Newton’s second law of thermodynamics and relentless progress of entropy. According to them the universe will inevitably die a cold dark heat death. Is this fact? I don’t know so I just say to all that ask me this question, just wait and see.

What have scientist discovered about our beautiful universe? That it is precise ordered and accords with basic mathematical constants are fact. Exact precise laws require an intelligent exact Law Giver don’t you think? It was created by the master mathematician. I say that the universal laws were set by a Divine Creator, who created all existence and who mankind refers to as the LORD GOD ALMIGHTY. Blessed be the Ever Existing Eternal Infinite One forever, to which I owe everything. I have nothing but the utmost profound deepest love, reverential fear and wonder, because He holds my eternal fate in His beloved mighty eternal infinite hands.

Mortal life is such a brief flashing moment in the grand order of things, cosmic time and so very short that it cannot be measured relative the immense vastness of the almost infinite eternity of the universe. One flashing moment in eternity and mere mortal life is gone forever. There must be more to our existence or all is vain and without purpose. Someone rose from this infinite death to give us eternal hope, who was he?

I look not for a city that passes away, made by mere mortal man, but a mighty city, a City of God, eternal, whose maker and creator is God that endures for eternity in golden translucent glory of blinding light forever

Love,

Regards

Alan 3/4/2007

Alan:

I agree that this universe including its life forms are way too complicated to be the result of a random creative process.  All one needs to do is seriously consider how detailed the life of one cell is in order to see that there is no way such workable complexity came to be as the result of random mutations. A cell would've never reached the point where it was organized enough so it could last long enough so enough of the required mutations would've taken place. This is especially so if you consider the fact that most mutations aren't beneficial.

Therefore, there must've been a guiding intelligence behind what was created.

When I had what I call my Night in Heaven experiece I understood how it was possible for that which exists to exist. The something from nothing conundrum was solved. It was like "Oh yeah." I can't remember the details now. It is beyond what my intellect can conceive of.

You just to have blind faith. And maybe it not what people in general think. The the bible is just a translation anyway.

In a way faith has been given a bad name because of the way some people have used the word.

I communicate with friendly spirit beings. At first I didn't have enough information about who I was communicating with in order to form a definite conclusion of who they are.  Nevertheless, and even though I was concerned about unfriendly beings, I had enough faith in the kind of person I was (and therefore the kind of connection that was possible) and that some friendly beings do exist that I allowed the process of connecting to happen long enough so I could gain certainty.

Faith can mean much more than blindness. Sometimes it comes to be when we listen to our hearts. Somewhere inside we know that beautiful beings of love and light do in fact exist.


wrote on Mar 24^th, 2012 at 5:35pm:

You just to have blind faith. And maybe it not what people in general think. The the bible is just a translation anyway.

recoverer wrote on Mar 24^th, 2012 at 6:04pm:

In a way faith has been given a bad name because of the way some people have used the word. I communicate with friendly spirit beings. At first I didn't have enough information about who I was communicating with in order to form a definite conclusion of who they are.  Nevertheless, and even though I was concerned about unfriendly beings, I had enough faith in the kind of person I was (and therefore the kind of connection that was possible) and that some friendly beings do exist that I allowed the process of connecting to happen long enough so I could gain certainty. Faith can mean much more than blindness. Sometimes it comes to be when we listen to our hearts. Somewhere inside we know that beautiful beings of love and light do in fact exist. wrote on Mar 24th, 2012 at 5:35pm: You just to have blind faith. And maybe it not what people in general think. The the bible is just a translation anyway.

Faith is not blind like that member stated, it leads to knowledge of the truth that God really exists

Below are some quotes by great people about God

http://www.proofthatgodexists.org/favourite-quotes.php

favourite quotes

I realize that a few sites, such as Stumbleupon are linking directly to the 'favourite quotes' page without going through the proof. Please do enjoy the quotes, and feel free to e-mail me with some that you may like, but please also take the time to go through the proof by clicking 'The Proof' tab at the column on the left.Thanks

A man can no more diminish God's glory by refusing to worship Him than a lunatic can put out the sun by scribbling the word, 'darkness' on the walls of his cell. C.S. Lewis

Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. Winston Churchill

The loneliest moment in life is when you have just experienced that which you thought would deliver the ultimate, and it has just let you down. Ravi Zacharias

I do not feel obliged to believe that same God who endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect had intended for us to forgo their use. Galileo

The atheist can't find God for the same reason that a thief can't find a policeman. Author Unknown

The worst moment for the atheist is when he is really thankful, and has nobody to thank. Dante Gabriel Rossetti

Humanism or atheism is a wonderful philosophy of life as long as you are big, strong, and between the ages of eighteen and thirty-five. But watch out if you are in a lifeboat and there are others who are younger, bigger, or smarter. William Murray

Absent an absolute moral authority independent of fallible humans, the only meaning “wrong” could have (pertaining to conduct) would be “in opposition to X,” or “falling short of X’s standards,” which are only persuasive to those who have already accepted X. Calvin Freiburger

The real attitude of sin in the heart towards God is that of being without God; it is pride, the worship of myself, that is the great atheistic fact in human life. Oswald Chambers

The theory that thought is merely a movement in the brain is, in my opinion, nonsense; for if so, that theory itself would be merely a movement, an event among atoms, which may have speed and direction but of which it would be meaningless to use the words 'true' or 'false'. C.S. Lewis

If there is no God, then all that exists is time and chance acting on matter. If this is true then the difference between your thoughts and mine correspond to the difference between shaking up a bottle of Mountain Dew and a bottle of Dr. Pepper. You simply fizz atheistically and I fizz theistically. This means that you do not hold to atheism because it is true , but rather because of a series of chemical reactions… … Morality, tragedy, and sorrow are equally evanescent. They are all empty sensations created by the chemical reactions of the brain, in turn created by too much pizza the night before. If there is no God, then all abstractions are chemical epiphenomena, like swamp gas over fetid water. This means that we have no reason for assigning truth and falsity to the chemical fizz we call reasoning or right and wrong to the irrational reaction we call morality. If no God, mankind is a set of bi-pedal carbon units of mostly water. And nothing else.
Douglas Wilson

The atheist can appeal to nothing absolute, nothing objectively true for all people, it is just mere opinion enforced by might. The Christian appeals to a standard outside himself/herself in which truth and qualitative values can be made sense of.
Peter Huff

My argument against God was that the universe seemed so cruel and unjust. But how had I got this idea of just and unjust? A man does not call a line crooked unless he has some idea of a straight line. What was I comparing this universe with when I called it unjust? If the whole show was bad and senseless from A to Z, so to speak, why did I, who was supposed to be part of the show, find myself in such a violent reaction against it?... Of course I could have given up my idea of justice by saying it was nothing but a private idea of my own. But if i did that, then my argument against God collapsed too--for the argument depended on saying the world was really unjust, not simply that it did not happen to please my fancies. Thus, in the very act of trying to prove that God did not exist - in other words, that the whole of reality was senseless - I found I was forced to assume that one part of reality - namely my idea of justice - was full of sense. If the whole universe has no meaning, we should never have found out that it has no meaning: just as, if there were no light in the universe and therefore no creatures with eyes, we should never have known it was dark. Dark would be without meaning. C.S. Lewis

Science can tell us how to do many things, but it can not tell us what ought to be done. Author Unknown

If God would concede me His omnipotence for 24 hours, you would see how many changes I would make in the world. But if He gave me His wisdom too, I would leave things as they are. J.M.L. Monsabre

If the solar system was brought about by an accidental collision, then the appearance of organic life on this planet was also an accident, and the whole evolution of Man was an accident too. If so, then all our present thoughts are mere accidents - the accidental by-product of the movement of atoms. And this holds for the thoughts of the materialists and astronomers as well as for anyone else's. But if their thoughts - i.e., Materialism and Astronomy - are mere accidental by-products, why should we believe them to be true? I see no reason for believing that one accident should be able to give me a correct account of all the other accidents. It's like expecting the accidental shape taken by the splash when you upset a milk-jug should give you a correct account of how the jug was made and why it was upset. C.S. Lewis

Man is certainly crazy. He could not make a mite, and he makes gods by the dozen. Michel De Montaigne, Essays

The greatest act of faith takes place when a man finally decides that he is not God. Johann Wolfgang Goethe

There are those who hate Christianity and call their hatred an all-embracing love for all religions. G.K. Chesterton

Practicing psychiatry without faith in God is like meeting a hungry man and giving him a toothpick. Author Unknown

We must live with people to know their problems and live with God to 'help' solve them. Author Unknown

Men do not differ much about what things they will call evils; they differ enormously about what evils they will call excusable. G.K. Chesterton

A great many of those who 'debunk' traditional...values have in the background values of their own which they believe to be immune from the debunking process. C.S. Lewis

Aim at heaven and you will get earth thrown in. Aim at earth and you get neither. C.S. Lewis

There are two different kinds of revelation, natural revelation, which we find in the world, and special revelation, which we find in the word of God. A basic rule of Biblical interpretation is that we should always interpret natural revelation through the grid of special revelation, that is the word of God. We don't look at the world and then say this is truth, therefore we must conform the Scriptures to what we see. This view is a deadly mistake and would lead to atheism. I interpret science through the lens of the word of God, which presupposes the truth of Genesis 1-3. There is no evidence of higher value or authority than the word of God. Gene Cook

The traditional form of arguing for God's existence allows for the participants in the debate to stand on the sidelines, like two opposing coaches, in order to look at how their respective teams are doing out on the field. A distinction is maintained at all times between the participants on the field and the spectators along the sidelines. But a transcendental argument, on the other hand, is all-inclusive. A common mistake among those not familiar with this form of argumentation is to assume that it is the same kind of argument as one of the more traditional arguments. This in turn leads to misunderstandings and loud complaints when the transcendental players proceed to tackle the coach, water boy, trainer, and ESPN cameramen. Douglas Wilson

If you board the wrong train, it is no use running along the corridor in the other direction. Dietrich Bonhoeffer

I believe in Christianity as I believe that the Sun has risen, not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else. C.S. Lewis

Some people complain because God puts thorns on roses, while others praise God for putting roses among thorns. Author Unknown

A heathen philosopher once asked a Christian, 'Where is God'? The Christian answered, 'Let me first ask you, Where is He not?' Aaron Arrowsmith

I was at this time of living, like so many Atheists or Anti-theists, in a whirl of contradictions. I maintained that God did not exist. I was also very angry with God for not existing. I was equally angry with Him for creating a world. C.S. Lewis

No philosophical theory which I have yet come across is a radical improvement on the words of Genesis, that 'In the beginning God made Heaven and Earth'. C.S. Lewis

There is no neutral ground in the universe: every square inch, every split second, is claimed by God and counterclaimed by Satan. C.S. Lewis

Whatsoever is good for God's children they shall have it, for all is theirs to further them to heaven; therefore, if poverty be good, they shall have it; if disgrace be good, they shall have it; if crosses be good, they shall have them; if misery be good, they shall have it; for all is ours, to serve for our greatest good. Richard Sibbes

For when we cease to worship God, we do not worship nothing, we worship anything. G. K. Chesterton

How often we look upon God as our last and feeblest resource! We go to him because we have nowhere else to go. And then we learn that the storms of life have driven us, not upon the rocks, but into the desired haven. George Macdonald

Someone once said that if you sat a million monkeys at a million typewriters for a million years, one of them would eventually type out all of Hamlet by chance. But when we find the text of Hamlet, we don't wonder whether it came from chance and monkeys. Why then does the atheist use that incredibly improbable explanation for the universe? Clearly, because it is his only chance of remaining an atheist. At this point we need a psychological explanation of the atheist rather than a logical explanation of the universe. Peter Kreeft

A silly idea is current that good people do not know what temptation means. This is an obvious lie. Only those who try to resist temptation know how strong it is... A man who gives in to temptation after five minutes simply does not know what it would have been like an hour later. That is why bad people, in one sense, know very little about badness. They have lived a sheltered life by always giving in. C. S. Lewis

Prayer is not overcoming God's reluctance, but laying hold of His willingness. Martin Luther

If God were small enough to be understood, He would not be big enough to be worshiped. Evelyn Underhill

An utterly fascinating illustration of this duping of ourselves is the latest arts building opened at Ohio State University, the Wexner Center for the Performing Arts, another one of our chimerical exploits in the name of intellectual advance. Newsweek branded this building "America's first deconstructionist building." It's white scaffolding, red brick turrets, and Colorado grass pods evoke a double take. But puzzlement only intensifies when you enter the building, for inside you encounter stairways that go nowhere, pillars that hang from the ceiling without purpose, and angled surfaces configured to create a sense of vertigo. The architect, we are duly informed, designed this building to reflect life itself-senseless and incoherent-and the "capriciousness of the rules that organize the built world." When the rationale was explained to me, I had just one question: Did he do the same with the foundation?

The laughter in response to my question unmasked the double standard our deconstructionists espouse. And that is precisely the double standard of atheism! It is possible to dress up and romanticize our bizarre experiments in social restructuring while disavowing truth or absolutes. But one dares not play such deadly games with the foundations of good thinking. Ravi Zacharias

There are no ordinary people.. it is immortals whom we joke with, work with, marry, snub, and exploit. C.S. Lewis

Out of 100 men, one will read the Bible, the other 99 will read the Christian. D.L. Moody

The secret formula of the saints: When I am in the cellar of affliction, I look for the Lord's choicest wines. Samuel Rutherford

It is our wisest and our safest course to stand at the farthest distance from sin; not to go near the house of the harlot, but to fly from all appearance of evil (Prov. 5:8, I Thess. 5:22). The best course to prevent falling into the pit is to keep at the greatest distance; he that will be so bold as to attempt to dance upon the brink of the pit, may find by woeful experience that it is a righteous thing with God that he should fall into the pit. Thomas Brooks

The Christian ideal has not been tried and found wanting; it has been found difficult and left untried. G.K. Chesterton

If you ask why we should obey God, in the last resort the answer is, 'I am.'
To know God is to know that our obedience is due to Him. C.S. Lewis

God exist whether or not men may choose to believe in Him. The reason why many people do not believe in God is not so much that it is intellectually impossible to believe in God, but because belief in God forces that thoughtful person to face the fact that he is accountable to such a God. Robert A. Laidlaw

Occam's razor states that one should not increase, beyond what is necessary, the number of entities required to explain anything, however, the simple theory must be able to account for or explain what needs explaining. It's not enough to have a simpler theory if you can't account for anything. Though we shouldn't add entities beyond what's needed, we also should not subtract entities beyond what's needed. Paul Manata

Atheism is a crutch for those who cannot bear the reality of God. Tom Stoppard

Still, even the most admirable of atheists is nothing more than a moral parasite, living his life based on borrowed ethics. This is why, when pressed, the atheist will often attempt to hide his lack of conviction in his own beliefs behind some poorly formulated utilitarianism, or argue that he acts out of altruistic self-interest. But this is only post-facto rationalization, not reason or rational behavior. Vox Day

Nobody talks so constantly about God as those who insist that there is no God. Heywood Broun

Merely having an open mind is nothing; the object of opening a mind, as of opening the mouth, is to shut it again on something solid. G.K. Chesterton

The most valued attributes of mankind do not come naturally to the human animal; character borrows from the divine. A.S.A. Jones

What comes into our minds when we think about God, is the most important thing about us. A.W. Tozer

Why do all you "Bible Bashers" believe in something that does NOT exist?  lol    ;D

Actually, "Anyone" DID write the bible!

It's a religious fact that is spouted left and right by Jehova's Witnesses...

The Bible is written by man..... Inspired by God.

Could anyone have written the bible and simply acted like God existed?

YES!

But, regardless, the Bible is one amazing book that has truly stood the test of time. No scientist can deny this!

The Bible is several books, chosen carefully to match the version of the Jesus story by a very small group of committed Christians who were trying to prevent the sect from fracturing.  There are many other contemporary gospels, written at the same time by credible witnesses (including the disciple Thomas) that were left out of the cannon because they espoused a direct connection between man and God rather than a pathway that led only through Jesus.  No less amazing a book, and no less astounding a holy man.

It seems to me it is obvious the fish did not create the fishbowl...and that "creator" to me is God.

I like that. :)


usetawuz wrote on May 23^rd, 2012 at 1:45pm:

It seems to me it is obvious the fish did not create the fishbowl...and that "creator" to me is God.

A scientific singularity created all of existence.

This has about the same credibility as saying:

God created all of existence.

Both of them imply one thing that creates all things yet comes from nothing.

The difference?

The singularity makes scientific sense.

God, does not.

Is this the same science which proved the universe revolved around the earth?  And that makes sense?  Science can only prove what can be observed and measured...outside of that it is theory.  I cannot feel, sense or benefit from theory, while the non-measureable phenomena which science says does not exist provides untold levels of benefits to my life...and that is no scientific singularity.

If a fish doesn't believe that something beyond his pond exists, how is he going to find out the nature of what exists beyond it? Or in other words, sometimes scientists live in a fishbowl that they aren't willing to see beyond.

recoverer wrote on May 25^th, 2012 at 1:49pm:

If a fish doesn't believe that something beyond his pond exists, how is he going to find out the nature of what exists beyond it? Or in other words, sometimes scientists live in a fishbowl that they aren't willing to see beyond.

...and I like that!

Thanks.

To add on to the analogy, if a fish thought like the scientists we are speaking of (I figure some are more open minded), this fish would conclude that animals such as frogs and diving birds appear and dissappear because they have the ability to become invisible. If you told such a fish that such animals travel to a place other than the pond, it would call you a nutcase.

Actually, not a nutcase because it wouldn't know about nuts. It would call you a fruitcase.

Actually, not a fruitcase because unless it's pond was located near a fruit tree it wouldn't know about fruit.

So I don't know what the fish would call you but it probably wouldn't be very flattering.



usetawuz wrote on May 25^th, 2012 at 2:12pm:

recoverer wrote on May 25th, 2012 at 1:49pm: If a fish doesn't believe that something beyond his pond exists, how is he going to find out the nature of what exists beyond it? Or in other words, sometimes scientists live in a fishbowl that they aren't willing to see beyond. ...and I like that!

recoverer wrote on May 25^th, 2012 at 3:49pm:

Thanks. To add on to the analogy, if a fish thought like the scientists we are speaking of (I figure some are more open minded), this fish would conclude that animals such as frogs and diving birds appear and dissappear because they have the ability to become invisible. If you told such a fish that such animals travel to a place other than the pond, it would call you a nutcase. Actually, not a nutcase because it wouldn't know about nuts. It would call you a fruitcase. Actually, not a fruitcase because unless it's pond is located near a fruit tree it wouldn't know about fruit. So I don't know what the fish would call you but it probably wouldn't be very flattering. usetawuz wrote on May 25th, 2012 at 2:12pm: recoverer wrote on May 25th, 2012 at 1:49pm: If a fish doesn't believe that something beyond his pond exists, how is he going to find out the nature of what exists beyond it? Or in other words, sometimes scientists live in a fishbowl that they aren't willing to see beyond. ...and I like that!

Sorry for the duplicate. It wasn't until after I posted a second time that I realized that the editing feature went away.

agree... I wanted to edit my post and was unable to as well..

=(

There is no absolute proof for anything - whether you use Western science or just common sense.  Most of what we take as reproducible "factual" information comes from the consensus of our sensory data as interpreted by the mind.  The realm of thought is the only "true" realm, as sensory data may be faulty or interpreted differently. 

Scientists initially tried to break the world down into discreet unbreakable "billiard balls" of atoms.  Experimental data didn't support this in the physical world.  So further theories began to postulate quantum mechanics and particles behaving as both waves and solids.  Then particles were found to statistically be able to be at two places at one time...

Rather than be confused and disheartened by all this, why not step back and look at the world we live in.  Look at the cities, the communities, the way life and consciousness spring out at us in every way shape or form.  To assume there is no creator, and that this is random nonsense is irrational.  It is as if to put blinders on deliberately and shielf yourself from the fact that there is a universal force of mind and thought expressing itself.

And the collective of this universal force is and comes from God.  We are open to God in however much we allow him and loving activity to enter into our lives. 

But those who don't believe in God, don't kid yourselves thinking that basic science disproves the existence of God and a universal mind.  Quite the opposite is true. 

M