I went into the hospital I visit to round on two patients.  But before I did, I got a "feeling" I should visit a floor I had no patients on.  It was different than a communication; it was more like a "knowing" that I was needed there or might be.

I went over to the computer bank to check up on the other two patients, and a nurse came up to me and said "Oh Doc, great, I was just going to call you to come see this patient," after which, she presented a new case who needed to be seen right away.

I hadn't rounded on that service/floor in weeks.  Now, on thinking about it, I decided that there may be a difference between intuition (which I believe I experienced) and guidance.  However, if you think about it, the line is a very fine one.  I think of guidance as being given information or a direction out-of-the blue by an external source (guides, etc.).  Intuition I feel is sort of a direct experience of the "knowing" of our connected reality, and the application of that knowing to the physical world.

Ok, that sounds complicated.  But I do feel there is a dfference when you just know something in your gut, without rationality, compared to being guided to be doing something from an outside source.  I felt that there was a knowing associated with what went on.  Some could dismiss it as coincidence, others as "ESP."  As many on the board here know, I don't buy into the ESP argument because ESP is by no means a defined scientific phenomenon (vis-a-vis cause, etiology, effect).  I think of ESP as akin to being in touch with a deeper consciousness or collective consciousness. 

So for myself, I find a difference between intuition from knowing, and external guidance. 


Matthew

DocM wrote on Mar 2^nd, 2012 at 8:29am:

So for myself, I find a difference between intuition from knowing, and external guidance.  Matthew

Hi Matthew,

Your experience and differentiation make sense to me. I experience things on different "levels" and can usually determine if it's intuition or guidance. With guidance I tend to feel something *outside* myself versus intuition in which I can't pinpoint a specific reason for the sense of knowing.

Thanks for sharing that,
mj

Hi Matthew,

Yes, I agree there is a difference in the ways we receive information. Sometimes it comes directly from "guides" or what I perceive as "other than me", other times it's what I call "inner guidance" or what I think of as intuition. Other times I see visions and/or mini movies in my mind's eye, very much like the hypnagogic state even though I'm wide awake doing whatever... driving, working, etc.

I've always found the various ways people receive information interesting.  I guess the main thing is that the communication is understandable and recognized as something to pay attention to.

Kathy

Hi Kathy-

Just wondering if you're still planning on starting that new thread you had mentioned a couple months ago?

If so, looking forward to it!

R

Going by my experience friendly spirit guidance would suggest that a person gets in touch with his or her intuition.

Before I made contact with my spirit guidance I believed I would make touch with a spiritual encyclopedia that would give me all of the answers  I want. It hasn't worked out that way. Even though guidance wants to be helpful, it understands about the importance of self-effort and on having some self-reliance.

I say "some self-reliance" because we are all into this together and I don't believe we want to take on a framework of mind where we feel as we couldn't possibly be helped by another.

It is important to remember that the division between this physical World and the spirit World isn't as big as some people believe. Therefore, making contact with our spirit friends isn't any different than making contact with our physical friends. Why deprive ourselves of such contact?

Sure there are unfriendly and misleading beings, but there are also unfriendly and misleading people. So in either case we have to use our discrimination.

You all are clearly more advanced on this than I am, but you've given me something to think about.

Sometimes I do "take the right road," so to speak, on whim rather than on a decision and I am sometimes surprised at how well that turns out. That is more likely to happen when things feel like they are flowing and I dn't think about it. being highly analytical, getting to the place where I don't think about it is difficult. But I would have said, Matthew, that I went to that other floor on a whim. Not sure I can differentiate between intuition and guidance. But this gives me something to think about.

See, what it feels like (the whim that leads to something else) is also the way it feels when I studied really long and hard and knew all the answerson the exam and breezed through them and aced the exam; I mean the part it feels like is when I'm answering the questions but not really thinking about answering the questions, just doing it. In the flow. No one would call that intuition. I guess all forms of knowing feel similar?

HI Matthew,

I’m curious what the difference is to you.  Do you treat them differently in how you believe or react? 

There are different ways we perceive and receive information but to me, the difference isn’t as important as the information itself and how we choose to respond or react to it.  Our response or reaction may have an effect on someone or something, or it may at the very least have an effect on our own consciousness. 

In my view, you noticed what you perceived, but you chose to react to it by setting it aside to continue your duty.  Nothing wrong with that, especially since your work is important.  But instead of reacting and diverting away from what you perceived, you could have instead responded to it and followed through with it, and gone straight to the floor you were sensing.   What might have happened if you had done that?  What, if anything, might have been learned or gained?  Maybe nothing.  Or maybe at the very least that type of acceptance and trust of your intuition might have shifted something inside your being allowing for more intuitive perception next time.  I myself have found this to be true. 

Our typical reaction is to not change anything about what we’re doing, even though we’ve acknowledged the intuition taking place.  But instead of analyzing the differences in how I perceive intuitively and their degrees of importance, I find that just accepting and trusting are very important shifts in consciousness that allow for more opportunities of experience. 

I do see what you mean about the nature in how we perceive differently, from within versus from without, but whether you call it knowing or guidance I still think it all falls on the same continuum of perception.  Remember Bruce’s  continuum of nonphysical sense of sight?  “Knowing” at one end and “same as physical reality” on the other?  I believe that all forms of perception are all on one continuum, and how we perceive/receive is just a matter of our perspective based on “where” we are within our conscious awareness. 

I think the more you are comfortable with “receiving” and the more you accept and trust it, the more you learn to allow your perception to open to receive more, whether it’s receiving more information or receiving in more ways.

For me, that feeling of receiving from outside of myself doesn’t necessarily mean it’s from some other being.  I always tend to think of it as coming from my own consciousness, from that higher-self perspective that seems so far removed from my daily physical perspective of myself.   So whether I receive just a knowing feeling, or whether I receive something much more profound—while it’s all really fascinating—the point is that I pay attention to what I perceive/received and how I decide to respond to it. 
 

Well I'm not sure what guidance is.

Maybe if something kept showing up in my life and pointed me in a particular direction, I would say I felt guided in that direction. So then guidance would be different than intuition/knowing. But it wouldn't be a one-time thing.

Lucy wrote on Mar 2^nd, 2012 at 2:18pm:

So then guidance would be different than intuition/knowing. But it wouldn't be a one-time thing.

Not necessarily.  You can have Guidance trying to get through to you but you're not perceiving it.  You can have someone or something trying to give you guidance but you can choose to ignore it or talk yourself out of it.  The more you choose not to perceive or listen, the less you're going to be able to.  It will be harder for that guidance to make itself apparent to you.  That's the point I was trying to make in my post.  The more that you open yourself up to receiving, the more you are able to perceive and receive.  But you have to allow for it.  That's where the differences come into play.  When you allow for more, it tends to have an affect on your ability to perceive and that's when simple knowing feelings can turn into the feeling of direct, outward guidance.  And I think the reverse is true...what used to feel like coming from some outside source, once accepted can begin to be more of a feeling of knowing without the need for separation.  At least, that's been my own personal experience. 

I figure we aren't separate from our disk, soul group, universal knowledge, yet we are still unique.  Therefore, when we use our intuition to become aware of the wisdom at such levels of being we go outside of ourselves without actually going outside of ourselves. 

I feel that in order to know the totality of me, I have to be willing to be aware of what I am connected to--a part of.

I receive messages in the form of symbolic visual imagery partly because I haven't reached the point where I completely trust and rely on my intuition.  When I say this I don't mean to imply that I shouldn't use my rational mind at all.

rondele wrote on Mar 2^nd, 2012 at 1:49pm:

Hi Kathy- Just wondering if you're still planning on starting that new thread you had mentioned a couple months ago? If so, looking forward to it! R

Hi Rondele,

Could you refresh my memory?  Sorry but I've forgotten which thread I said that on and also what the subject was.  Thanks!

K

Hey Vicky,

I think you misread me.  I had two routine patients to see, but I had a strong knowing intuition to go to this other floor.  So I did go, and was then approached by someone who was about to call me to see a new patient.

I saw the intuition as a "knowing" with an inner confidence and conviction.  I didn't sense anything outside of myself as guiding me; only the absolute certainty that for no logical reason it was the place I should go.

I have had this feeling before on several occasions; I think we all do at times.  Once, while on vacation, the hotel we stayed in had a casino.  I joked to my wife I would go in and play a game of chance.  I am not a gambler.  As I walked toward the casino, I felt confident, no certain that I would "hit it big."   I put a few quarters in a slot machine.  In less than three minutes, I hit a jack pot, and a few hundred dollars came out.

Of course anyone can dismiss intuition as "luck,"  random occurrences, etc. - however, part of this is the law of probabilities.  The odds of hitting that jack pot were exceedingly low.  The odds of my being pulled to a floor where a nurse was about to call me for a consult (where I don't often get them) was less than 1 in a 1000. 

Jung spoke of "synchronicity" or the occurrence of events which should be random linked not by causality but by meaning.  He cited these events of proof of the collective unconscious - which is where I think our relaxed minds interact with all other minds and the universe. 

I feel that intuition is our conscious mind experiencing this synchronicity in a confident directed manner.  I have less experience with direct guidance, but I assume that it is the reception of a concept from a loved one or helper, when we ourselves may not have the answer.

Admittedly, since all conscious thought is connected, this distinction may appear moot.  However, I felt it was a different "feeling" to "know" than to be guided without knowing.

M

Lucy wrote on Mar 2^nd, 2012 at 2:13pm:

You all are clearly more advanced on this than I am, but you've given me something to think about. Sometimes I do "take the right road," so to speak, on whim rather than on a decision and I am sometimes surprised at how well that turns out. That is more likely to happen when things feel like they are flowing and I dn't think about it. being highly analytical, getting to the place where I don't think about it is difficult. But I would have said, Matthew, that I went to that other floor on a whim. Not sure I can differentiate between intuition and guidance. But this gives me something to think about. See, what it feels like (the whim that leads to something else) is also the way it feels when I studied really long and hard and knew all the answerson the exam and breezed through them and aced the exam; I mean the part it feels like is when I'm answering the questions but not really thinking about answering the questions, just doing it. In the flow. No one would call that intuition. I guess all forms of knowing feel similar?

Hi Lucy,

I call this this intuition or inner guidance.  Being in the flow is exactly how you've described.  It's the connection to the greater you.  We all connect to this everyday of our lives when information is "fed" to us.  We're not really thinking, planning, etc.  Just going with the flow.

A simple example of "knowing" which could also be called intuition by some is watching a TV game show and knowing the right answer even though there's no way you would have known it otherwise.

Kathy

Thanks for clarifying that for me Matthew.

I think the knowing feeling we're talking about on this thread, and the concept of synchronicity which is a topic I love and very interested in...I think the ability to know things in this manner has to do with being in a very receptive state of being when things have a way of coming into alignment.  I haven't yet figured out the how's and why's of it (I do tend to really get into analyzing how these things "work") but it's something I'm always working on.  I say that because I have so many of these types of experiences to the point where I have personally labeled them "the knowing feeling" when I receive them that way.  I get them about all kinds of things that I couldn't have any way of knowing through normal means.  One thing I have noticed is that my state of being and state of mind are generally happy, relaxed, feeling in the right place at the right time, that sort of comfy feeling. 

Matthew, did you notice anything special about the way you were feeling or thinking when it happened, or in general when you get these feelings?  All I know is, when you're in a "receptive" state of being it really helps.  That is, a mindless state, like housework, yardwork, a hobby, etc.  Those types of states make us most receptive for being open to being in sync, like you said of synchronicities. 

Kathy-

Here's the reference.  I've been waiting patiently! :)


Re: Excellent documentary on the Scole experiments.
Reply #69 - Dec 16th, 2011 at 11:23am Quote
Rondele,

Sure I'll think about starting that thread.  I have a project starting the middle of January that will take me 3 or 4 weeks to complete, but I'll see how my time goes.

K

I think Matthew is trying to distinguish between someting that feels like it comes from outside (guidance) versus something that comes from ..inside (intuition). I think some people use the terms interchangably.

So there are many subtleties to the mind and how it works and receives information. This is difficult to clearly discuss because we each experience something unique. Does itmatter if there is a difference beween the two?

But I do something I call thinking in different parts of my mind (maybe brain) because the thoughts themselves can have different "textures" and sometimes I seem to "click" between the different textures. Even memories can be different in this way. Some are like photographs, some are impressionist paintings, some are feelins. But they all get lumped under the term "memories."

In a video I mentioned to Vicky in another thread, James van Praagh touches on the different ways he experiences information. I guess this is just very difficult to discuss because we don't have one-to-one correlation between words and experiences.

and then there are the times I think I am in the flow and I feel one thing and I turn out to be dead wrong! What's that all about???

Hi,

The main emphasis seems to be conscious of such inner information, as Lucy says.  Eventually it may be a good idea to notice differences in the way you receive such information.

I get some with a glow around my heart, others more like a thin filament is tickling near my ear. I hear that others get their messages differently. Do those different formats show different origins for the info?

I'll bet there are more new sub-distinctions we will become sensitive to.

For example, maybe a non-physical Helper would contact DocM differently than a nurse who perhaps used ESP mind to mind contact because she knew Doc was coming and that he could be helpful. Maybe DocM's own Higher Self had a wider range of consciousness and saw the extra patient in  trouble so contact DocM's physical self to get it to hurry in.

Our views and contacts with the afterlife expanding!
Bets

betson wrote on Mar 3^rd, 2012 at 11:24am:

Eventually it may be a good idea to notice differences in the way you receive such information.

I have been documenting and categorizing the different ways I receive psychic information, and the most intriguing one is what I've labeled "The Voice".  Many of you here have seen me mention this many times.  I have no idea where or who this comes from but I use the umbrella term "Guidance" for all my psychic and spiritual experiences.  So far, to me I just chalk it up to my higher self consciousness.  I have no personal experience of knowing/believing where or who I can label this kind of stuff from.

When I hear The Voice it's always in my right ear, sounds exactly the same way I hear any living person speak, it always speaks to me in 2nd person, and it tells me what is about to happen in the future about things I couldn't possibly know through normal means.  Closely related to this category is instead of hearing it spoken, I will receive the message/information in my mind in words as in a thought form.  It comes in specific words, is also in 2nd person, and it's not something that originated in my own mind.  Again, it gives me information about something I couldn't possibly know and/or information about a future event. 

I have several other categories that I've experienced but I guess I'd say these 2 are most impressive for the fact that they feel as if they are coming to me/given by someone else, espcially for the fact that it "speaks" to me in 2nd person.  That's very interesting.  Obviously when I talk or think to myself, I don't refer to myself in the 2nd person.  I'd say to myself, "I should do the dishes" whereas The Voice once said: "You should go get the phone.  You'll be receiving an important phone call."  In that experience, I did listen to The Voice and got the phone.  Within 30 minutes my friend's 12-year-old daughter called me asking if I'd drive her to the pharmacy to get her inhaler.  She was home alone, scared, and didn't know who else to call.  That's pretty impressive.  And the reason it told me this?  I'm guessing it's because I was about to take a nap and I intentionally was going to turn the phone off.

Or this one that came as a thought:  "You should go introduce yourself to that woman over there.  She has the video."  I was at the elemenatry school watching Field Day.  I'd wanted to know if anyone had video taped the school play from the night before, and the teacher told me she'd knew of a parent whose son filmed it but she didn't know their name and she'd get back to me.  So later while watching my kids during field day when that thought came, I decided to listen to it.  I went over and introduced myself to this woman I'd never seen before, and she said, "Hi I'm Karen.  My son is the one who video taped the school play last night.  Did you get your name in for getting a copy of it?"  I was so stunned! 

So wherever this info comes from, and whoever gives it to me are beyond my knowledge.  All I know at this point is noticing how I receive them and then take notes of the details, label them so I can remember how they work, and the more I have the more I just trust and accept it.  I have had so many of them that I don't even question it, I just trust it.  But as far as where or who they come from?  I can't answer that, I only have my basic theory of coming from what I call my higher self guidance. 

Vicky:

For the most part I've found that just like you when I hear a voice I hear it by my right ear.  I'm glad you pointed out that 2nd person thing because it is an important distinction to make.  When it comes to my own thoughts I think in terms of "my" while the voice refers to me as someone other than itself.

There have been occasions when I heard a voice and it seemed as if it was coming within myself rather than my right ear.

What you say about receiving thoughts also matches my experience. They have a different loudness than my own thoughts. I say this yet I've found that it is possible to receive thoughts that come from a place other than myself, yet they have the same loudness as my regular thoughts. By "loudness" I mean more than volume level. They feel different than my usual thoughts.

Even though I receive thoughts and hear the occasional voice, I mainly receive information through symbolic visual imagery and short waking dreams.

One thing the voice does is wake me up when it wants me to write notes about a dream I just had but I'm too sleepy to wake up on my own.

Warnings don't happen often. There have been two occasions when a voice told me an Earthquake was going to take place just before an Earthquake took place. As you said on an earlier post the source of the voice seems to be aware of quite a bit. There have been occasions when I would be doing something such as driving around and this source would get me to notice something within the area I find myself in that I otherwise would not had noticed. This source seems to be aware of everything that is within my realm of existence.

Hi,

So due to Matthew's experience we are all trying to discern where this information comes from.

Matthew, if you asked the nurse if she had been thinking prior to your arrival that this patient needed help, or even more specifically, that you Dr Matthew had the skills to help this patient, then perhaps we could say that the information came through her thoughts. Is it too late to ask her that?

Or -- In other words, how much do other humans in an interconnected network of thoughts communicate to each other without obvious connections?

I'm not trying to rule out non-physical Helpers and Guides.  I'm just trying to find information on the variety of possible non-physical means of communicating information.

Bets

Hi Bets,

I couldn't really ask this without appearing to her to be loopy, or off base, though it is a reasonable question.

My "gut" told me that I was in touch with information from some "sure" source of data, and that I should stop by there.  There was a confidence in the coming to the floor.  I don't feel that it was a personal communication or ESP but honestly, since we are all part of a unity, however I tapped into the unity or made contact with the membrane of my subconscious, the result was the same.

I wish I could bottle that feeling of "knowing," with the calm confidence that was associated with it.  I feel that is our true nature, not the nervous uncertainty often associated with life in the physical plane. 

But I am no less prone to doubt or common insecurities as anybody else....


M

Quote:

I wish I could bottle that feeling of "knowing," with the calm confidence that was associated with it.  I feel that is our true nature, not the nervous uncertainty often associated with life in the physical plane.

and how!

Hi

this thread and Kathy's "Inner vision --Depth of Being" are starting to merge. See reply#2 on that thread.

Matthew,

I'm fascinated by the distinction you are analyzing, but let me add some controversial spice with this example. John Wimber was a Quaker turned charismatic minister and founder of the Vineyard denomination which is akin to the Assemblies of God.  He shared this experience aboard a jumbo jet.  While daydreaming in his seat, he found himself staring at a guy across the aisle.  Suddenly he had a vision of the word "adultery" written across the guy's forehead.  The guy noticed him staring and was mildly put off: "Why are you staring at me?"  he asked.  Suddenly a woman's name came to John's mind and he asked, "Does the name Saundra Klausner mean anything to you?"  (Not her real name!).  The man turned pale and, visibly shaken, insisted, "We need to talk!"  The jumbo jet had a little bar and they walked down to it.  As they sat down, John felt prompted to say, "The Lord has revealed to me that you are committing adultery with [the women named] and that, unless you stop, He will take you home."  At this the man broke down and asked desperately, "What should I do?"  John led him in a prayer of repentance and he promises to sever his illicit relationship.

I share this incident that I only recently discovered because it dramatically raises the question of the distinction you want to explore.  Was John's clairvoyant insight (in Christian terms, a "word of knowledge") guidance from the Holy Spirit or mere intuition?    Does the paranormal disclosure of the woman's name validate the revelation that the adulterer would "be taken home" (die) unless he discontinued his adultery?  Or should that word of judgment be dismissed as John's imposed interpretation upon his clairvoyant insight? 

This sort of relates to what Don (Berserk) just wrote. I've shared this before. One time I was walking through a hallway at work. I was suddenly shown a stop sign (I saw it front of me). I stopped, and a lady with a lower back problem came barreling around the corner. If I would not had stopped we would've crashed into each other.

Don,

This is fascinating.  I believe, the distinction is important.  Some may consider just the paranormal experience alone as proof that there was a divine message or judgement involved. 

For myself, I would think the difference between a personal "knowing" and an external guidance should feel and truly be different.   I see no reason why we should not be able to have communications with those in spirit, (angels) in which we are given information or instructions.  But just as in any conventional message, there should be an understanding on our part that this is in fact a message and not a personal "known". 

Admittedly, there is a continuum of ways in which we communicate, and as such it can be hard to figure out.

Don, you used to cite a story where a family member of yours was directed to go somewhere where, as I recall he encountered someone who may have been possessed.  That, to me sounds like guidance.  It was not a "known" to your brother, but he was directed where to go. 

Once, while driving down a winding road upstate in NY near my home, I saw the tail of a deer as it crossed the road.  I was not going quickly.  In my head/right ear I heard "where there is one, there are many."  Just at that point, a large deer jumped from the brush and smashed into the side/front of my car.  The sound was horrible.  I was upset.  I searched for the deer, knowing that it must have been horribly injured, but I could not find it.  I am convinced that it could not have survived.

That sentence "where there is one, there are many" I can only describe as guidance.  And I wish I had a fraction of a second more to have changed the outcome of that.

Matthew

Well it's clear to me that a lot of us simply have different definitions for certain words.  It seems it's always going to deter some conversations because of these differentiations. 

Don,

It's my opinion that the man with the vision who received the woman's name put his own interpreptation into it as to what the meaning and purpose was for the clairvoyant message.  I myself have received such personal information about people but I haven't felt compelled to tell them what to do about it.  That's not my place. Of course the difference between me and this man in your story is the difference in our religious beliefs.  I have no religious beliefs.  I don't judge people that way nor do I believe some higher being tells us what to do and tells us what we do wrong.  Therefore his interpretation came from his background of religious belief.  For if there was one such right way to believe, then even someone like me would also be given the same compelling feeling to repremand the aldulter and tell him what his punishment will be, would I not?

recoverer wrote on Mar 7^th, 2012 at 9:24pm:

This sort of relates to what Don (Berserk) just wrote. I've shared this before. One time I was walking through a hallway at work. I was suddenly shown a stop sign (I saw it front of me). I stopped, and a lady with a lower back problem came barreling around the corner. If I would not had stopped we would've crashed into each other.

Recoverer, I think this is typical, classic guidance.  I don't think it matters if we try to define where it came from, who gave it, or why.  Simply put, we have nonphysical senses of perception that we are only barely aware of most of the time.  In this example, you clearly noticed, paid attention, and listened to it without question or distrust. You simply accepted the means of communication and responded in kind...in other words, you didn't allow doubt to shut down your perception or ability, which likely would have made you bump into the woman. 




In general.....To me, learning more about this ability of our nonphysical senses of perception is no different from a baby learning that he has arms, hands, fingers, legs, feet, and toes, all of which are things the baby gradually become aware are his and are things he can consciously learn to utilize.  The more we become comfortable trusting and accepting, the more we will grow in our learning, belief, and knowledge. 

It's far more important to ask ourselves "what else can I learn that I haven't experienced yet?" than to only look back and question what our past experience was and why. 

Vicky

One of the ideas this thread brings to my mind is the notion of a divine plan or divine intelligence.  If there is knowing within us without an outside "mind" being involved, and if there are individual pinpoints of consciousness which are independent yet part of a whole, then there may be such a thing as a divine intelligence or "plan." 

Either events are completely random, influenced by our earth bound presences alone, or, possibly there is an intelligence behind the universe.  If there is a cosmic consciousness, then it stands to reason that from time to time, divine grace may shine down on any of us, and direct us along a path we might not go on.  But if so, under what circumstances are we guided, and what other circumstances do we go it on our own?

You can talk with your thoughts or think your thoughts. The same difference between personified guidance and intuitive acting "as if guided". Both can be described with the same neuroscience of what is going in the brain in relation to the "self".

It does not means, that there is no guidance; it only means, that you are something greater and wider than you define. If you simplify too much your definition of "what I am", then you land in a model, that asks the questions like "so, who are the others?" or "what is the difference between?".

What should be right question then? Maybe - "which model of 'I am' is more effective at this point of my self expression and self reception?"

None of such models must be better than others, but some of such models are better in some situations, and the fact that you can switch your perspective - answers more questions, than the models you switch between. This is the process of "becoming more aware".

Don, I think according to John's description he received two bits of information: the vision and a name.  The interpretation seems to be John's own belief since someone else receiving the same information could have simply thought, Oh that guy's cheating on his wife and feels guilty and then went on to discuss the situation in terms other than Christian.

The information itself could have been gleaned from John's inner guidance, the man's thoughts, another entity, memory held within the larger consciousness "database", etc. I'm not so sure a distinction can really be made as to where the information was gleaned from in this case. 

What's most important is this man's behavior apparently was not helping his spiritual growth and intervention/guidance/help came from the consciousness system itself in one of the above ways.  I think the whole of consciousness can and does provide whatever is needed to help someone evolve in beneficial ways.
 

Matthew, I don't think we truly are independent at our innermost being.  We only believe we are separate and independent because of the rules/laws/physics that govern the various realities we experience. The divine "plan" is for the evolution of Consciousness to expand and grow in the way that proves to be the most profitable.  And clearly Consciousness evolved towards love as that was/is the most beneficial.  Perhaps the intelligence lies within the process of evolution as "it" explores all possibilities. In other words perhaps this "intelligence" is learned as evolution takes place.
 
That would explain why there is such a thing as good/evil (most profitable/not so much) where the system itself decides.  God as the ground of all being, (including the Consciousness system) seems to have put forth the potential to become "something" by giving that "something" certain attributes such as freewill and everything else, including intelligence/rules/laws/realities/souls/us etc. evolved out of that initial potential where the evolving system itself bubbles up whatever is needed for the continuing of its existence, its expansion and growth in ways that are the most profitable and thereby derived its own intelligence from experience. 

Vicky:

I agree.


Vicky wrote on Mar 8^th, 2012 at 1:10am:

recoverer wrote on Mar 7th, 2012 at 9:24pm: This sort of relates to what Don (Berserk) just wrote. I've shared this before. One time I was walking through a hallway at work. I was suddenly shown a stop sign (I saw it front of me). I stopped, and a lady with a lower back problem came barreling around the corner. If I would not had stopped we would've crashed into each other. Recoverer, I think this is typical, classic guidance.  I don't think it matters if we try to define where it came from, who gave it, or why.  Simply put, we have nonphysical senses of perception that we are only barely aware of most of the time.  In this example, you clearly noticed, paid attention, and listened to it without question or distrust. You simply accepted the means of communication and responded in kind...in other words, you didn't allow doubt to shut down your perception or ability, which likely would have made you bump into the woman.  In general.....To me, learning more about this ability of our nonphysical senses of perception is no different from a baby learning that he has arms, hands, fingers, legs, feet, and toes, all of which are things the baby gradually become aware are his and are things he can consciously learn to utilize.  The more we become comfortable trusting and accepting, the more we will grow in our learning, belief, and knowledge.  It's far more important to ask ourselves "what else can I learn that I haven't experienced yet?" than to only look back and question what our past experience was and why.  Vicky

Just a few observations about John Wimber's exposure of the flight traveler's adultery.
(1) It seems natural to assume that if JW's initial revelation (the adultery and the adulteress's name) proved correct, then the legitimacy of the warning has been validated since it was received as part of a continuus revelatory process.  I'd wager that if any of us were in this same situation and a total stranger exposed our adultery and our lover's name, we too would take the warning seriously.

(2) Obviously, if we have a preconception that God is never punitive, we will automatically want to dismiss that part of JW's message.  But is this intellectually honest?  Suppose for the sake of argument that the threat was legitimate.  What in principle would it take to change our minds about this possibility?

(3) I know that Wimber is extraordinarily gifted in the exercise of "the word of knowledge" and that his predictions have come true on other occasions. 

(4) I have had several death premonitions that have invariably come true.  But as I have previously posted, I have not been able to persuade the person in danger to take evasive action.  So I now take these premonitions as a signal to pray that, since the future is not fixed, the danger can be averted through protective prayer. 

(5) The validity of inner knowing (intuition) need not depend on evidence.  None of us can decisively determine the validity of JW's threat, but we should at least acknowledge the possibility that the  quality of his intuition was such that he really knew. 

(6) How can we refine the accuracy of our intuition if our preconceptions continually censor and limit what can come through?  (a) A school psychologist in my church was expanding his selfless service to our church and the poor and needy.  Yet my intuition told me that he had a dark secret that should affect my relationship with him.  I censored that intuition as judgmental paranoia, but soon discovered that he had been molesting boys.  He is now serving a 14 1/2 year sentence.  (b) A defrocked pastor sought my support to get back into the ministry.  I gave him chances to serve and he performed very well.  But I knew he had marital problems and felt a strong impulse to confront him on this and press him to humble himself and seek reconciliation.  But I resisted this impulse.  After all, he was in a small support group that included a gifted clinical psychogist and very mature men who were closer to him than I.  "Who did I think I was?"  I thought.  Well, the ex-astor shot and killed his wife and I was sorry I resisted the impulse to confront him! 

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Just a few observations about John Wimber's exposure of the flight traveler's adultery. (1) It seems natural to assume that if JW's initial revelation (the adultery and the adulteress's name) proved correct, then the legitimacy of the warning has been validated since it was received as part of a continuous revelatory process. I'd wager that if any of us were in this same situation and a total stranger exposed our adultery and our lover's name, we too would take the warning seriously. (2) Obviously, if we have a preconception that God is never punitive, we will automatically want to dismiss that part of JW's message. But is this intellectually honest? Suppose for the sake of argument that the threat was legitimate. What in principle would it take to change our minds about this possibility? (3) I know that Wimber is extraordinarily gifted in the exercise of "the word of knowledge" and that his predictions have come true on other occasions.

Here, I'm not so sure there was a warning simply because no visual image appeared to indicate that "God would take him home".  Had an image such as a coffin appeared then I likely would have interpreted that there was a probability that the man would die.  Still, I wouldn't credit God with his possible impending demise. Intuition as we've discussed can be gleaned from various sources.  The man could have held a belief that adultery was wrong and God would punish him possibly by striking him down. (A fairly common belief even when one doesn't consider themselves a Christian.) John, even if he didn't believe this himself, could have gleaned that bit of information from the man. I usually take warnings seriously if I'm reasonably sure the information is accurate. In my experience if a death was trying to be prevented, a symbol representing death would have likely appeared as the first vision followed by the others indicating a course of action to follow to change the probability.


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(4) I have had several death premonitions that have invariably come true. But as I have previously posted, I have not been able to persuade the person in danger to take evasive action. So I now take these premonitions as a signal to pray that, since the future is not fixed, the danger can be averted through protective prayer.

Sometimes the probability is so strong it is not likely to change even with prayer or other intervention. After all these years I've accepted that sometimes I know things and there's little I can do to change them no matter how much I want to.  In those cases all one can do is gracefully accept whatever is to come. Albeit not always an easy thing to do.


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(5) The validity of inner knowing (intuition) need not depend on evidence. None of us can decisively determine the validity of JW's threat, but we should at least acknowledge the possibility that the quality of his intuition was such that he really knew.

Certainly possible, however, not likely in this particular case for the reasons stated above.  If changing the probability of a death was the purpose of communication, this most likely would have been more prominent than the other two visions. Had all of the information been communicated via intuition it might be a different story.  It's possible for intuition or knowing, etc. to accompany a vision, but that usually reinforces or clarifies the vision itself.      


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(6) How can we refine the accuracy of our intuition if our preconceptions continually censor and limit what can come through? (a) A school psychologist in my church was expanding his selfless service to our church and the poor and needy. Yet my intuition told me that he had a dark secret that should affect my relationship with him. I censored that intuition as judgmental paranoia, but soon discovered that he had been molesting boys. He is now serving a 14 1/2 year sentence. (b) A defrocked pastor sought my support to get back into the ministry. I gave him chances to serve and he performed very well. But I knew he had marital problems and felt a strong impulse to confront him on this and press him to humble himself and seek reconciliation. But I resisted this impulse. After all, he was in a small support group that included a gifted clinical psychologist and very mature men who were closer to him than I. "Who did I think I was?" I thought. Well, the ex-pastor shot and killed his wife and I was sorry I resisted the impulse to confront him!

Now you've hit on the crux of the problem with the accuracy of intuition. Intuition can only be clear and accurate when we have no preconceptions or emotion for that matter.  Preconceptions and emotion follow the information, and if one allows them to arise they will likely taint the information and/or it will stop coming forth.  I suspect this is why we only get bits of information at a time. Information coming forth continues as long as it is not analyzed or interfered with in any way until after it stops on its own.

As mentioned above, sometimes we do know things about someone else, yet many times we do not receive any clear information about a course of action to take.  Most likely with the psychologist, anything you would have been able to do, if you'd known the full story would not have changed the outcome, unless of course it could have been stopped sooner.  Same with the ex-pastor.  The probability of you having changed the outcome perhaps was there, but since he was receiving help chances are you confronting him would not have changed what happened.

Still there is such a wide range of probabilities at any given moment that it is difficult to decide what to do.  It's possible that had you confronted him you may have received more information such as his wife being in imminent danger.  Still there may not have been anything you could have done differently to change the outcome.  That's part of the uncertainty of living in this world.  We can only do the best we can at any given moment and learn to live with the uncertainty that abounds.   

Kathy

I've posted this story several years ago and it may or may not relate to the thread, but here goes anyway!

At the agency I used to work in DC, my boss at one time was a hard-bitten, cynical guy who was generally either despised and/or feared by those who worked for him as well as those who had to deal with him.  He was an avowed athiest and seldom had a good word to say about anyone.

His wife had either MS or MD, can't recall, but she was bedridden and he would confide in me things that he had to do for her, which was more out of a sense of obligation to his then 13 yr old son than anything else.

In the meantime he was engaged in a long term affair with a woman who worked in the same office.  He told me that as long as his wife was alive he would never divorce her. Everyone knew it.  He also took advantage of his secretary which eventually became an open secret as well.

One day he came into my office, shut the door and proceeded to tell me a story that to this day remains vivid in my memory.

He told me that one evening, after preparing his wife for the night, he got into bed, turned off the light and was ready for sleep.

Instinctively he was drawn to look up at the corner of the room's ceiling.  There was no face or body, just a hand with a finger pointing down at him.  He said the image was the most beautiful, unearthly radiant thing he had even seen.

He said it was like alabaster, and that he knew intuitively that if the entire figure behind the hand were to appear he would not be able to view it.  It would have been too overwhelming, too incredibly awesome to look upon.  He said he would have had to look away.

Now, this was something that he felt embarrassed to tell me.  He was not comfortable sharing it, afraid that others may conclude he was losing it. 

He was clearly looking not only to share but hoping to find some kind of answer to the vision.

He said the finger pointing, to him, was clearly an admonishment about his overall conduct, especially his affair. 

Bottom line was he never changed his behavior.  The affair continued and his overall demeanor was unchanged.

Strange thing is, it shook him to his core but it didn't cause him to stop the way he was living his life.

I've often wondered.....why did this truly spectacular event happen to him?  After all, sad to say but affairs (and worse) are going on all the time.  What was different in his case?  What was the purpose?

Things that we can never know I suppose.  I've long since lost touch with him but often wonder how his life turned out.

R