Lewis Wolpert the skeptical biologist is quoted as saying 'open minds are empty minds'. By this I think he equated open-mindedness with gullibility and low intelligence.For me this is a key issue.

My personal view is that without open-mindedness to new experiences/data (to the paranormal and everything else in life) we just filter out anything which contradicts our current worldview and stagnate our evolutionary potential. But, the skeptics may reply, pure openmindedness means we'll be fooled by anything.If that is true then the $64000 question is which truth seeking device(s) do we use to distinguish the genuine from the false ? I'm interested to know others' thoughts on this.

D

The bottom line is that a scientist cannot say the afterlife does not exist simply because they don't think it does. (Steven Hawking made this claim.) However, the scientist can say, "I do not think/believe the afterlife exists."

A true scientist would be open to testing any theory regardless of how ludicrous the theory may sound. The major issue is if for some reason the test cannot fit into traditional guide lines.

Back to the topic, I consider a scientist willing to test the afterlife vigorously through video cameras, testing, body cavity searches, to be a fairly open minded scientist.

Outrageous claims require strict testing.

If you claim strict testing is impossible for the matter to be tested, then lesser tests may be attempted, but the results may be considered highly questionable.

Hi Focus27,

'Outrageous claims require strict testing'. But the problem comes with what constitutes an outrageous claim and who is deciding that it is so (and do they have an agenda).It seems to me rather unfair that an arbitary 2-tier system is adopted where one set of accepted standards is applied to one set of orthodox phenomena and another set to that which is labelled 'extraordinary' as in 'extraordinary claims need extraordinary evidence' - heck, if we raise the bar high enough no positive evidence would ever be acceptable ! But maybe that's the point ...

D

Personal experience is the only way to know, but to get that experience one has to be open-minded,   :)
so there's a conundrum.

Open-minded to the extent that energies can flow freely so that you can disengage from the gravity-loving physical mode and lift into the astral or even mental ranges. (Directions for how to do that are in books by Bruce and others.)

To me information and perceptions that open me to higher energy are what is true. Ideas etc that make me contract are not true. It's a visceral test that I cannot fake. For example, on this thread there are some posts of each  :) (That's why this site is so interesting, exciting even.)

I think you hit on a key point Betson - in order to have the experiences you have to be open (to the possibility at least) to them in the first place ! Experiences then feedback and open the door further ajar.Respected positive scientific studies etc. don't replace direct experience but they can help create the fertile environment in which experiences can happen by allaying doubts.

In an interesting collaboration between a skeptic (Richard Wiseman) and a 'believer' (Marilyn Schlitz of IONS) an experiment was set up by the researchers independently but using identical protocols. The experiment was testing whether people had a psychic awareness of being stared at. The results published in the Journal of the British Psychological Society would seem to suggest that the 'experimenter effect' is a real phenomenon with the believer producing positive results and the skeptic only chance results. The paper is available at: http://www.richardwiseman.com/resources/twominds.pdf

Dr. Wolpert's arrogance skews his view of reality, compromising his intelligence. ;D

Seriously, it's fear-based thinking. If he opens his mind he's afraid anything could fall in there. Then he'd have to start over. He wouldn't have control and his sense of security would vanish.

Agreed, but he is far from being a lone voice. In the quality British newspapers or on the BBC i.e. mainstream 'thinking' media you will never get any idea that there is any decent evidence that 'paranormality' exists. Ghosts, ESP etc. would be considered the province of trashy magazines, the gullible and the uninformed. Don't know if that is the case in the US.

Rob Roy,

I couldn't agree more  ;).

Heisenburg,

I'm confused by your claim that there are quality newspapers in this country  ;D.

"Ghosts, ESP etc. would be considered the province of trashy magazines, the gullible and the uninformed."

I know what you're saying here but it makes no difference to me as I know what my experiences are and that they were as real as me typing this on this site now. It can be amusing reading some of their "explanations" for this stuff and even more amusing watching the "sceptics" lap it up as facts.

Admittedly, I am talking as a "believer" so I could be accused of being biased and before my experiences I didn't really have an opinion on this stuff. So I can't really comment how I would feel about the evidence from my former stance on this subject.

What I can say though is, the default position is "I don't know" rather than "it doesn't exist until there is extraordinary evidence to say that it does" the same goes for God too.

In a nutshell if you're a firm believer or non believer without any experience or evidence either way then you're just part of a belief system and it makes you as bad as the people you're opposing in my eyes.

(I hope this last part makes sense lol)

Andy

Maybe I should have written 'quality' papers  ;).

I think the default position of not knowing/needing more information you talk of is the open-minded honest one but also quite rare. As Rob Roy pointed out on the demon thread we are all products of our culture and if information is suppressed either consciously or unconsciously it has powerful knock on effects. We can see this graphically illustrated by the scenes in North Korea with the death of leader Kim Jong-il.

heisenberg69 wrote on Dec 20^th, 2011 at 3:36pm:

Lewis Wolpert the skeptical biologist is quoted as saying 'open minds are empty minds'.

This doesn't exactly make sense, an open mind should be maintained by all scientists.  Galileo's theory that the earth revolved around the sun was met with hostility as a result of close-minded thinking.  Of course a lot of the blame rests on the church for this, but you get the idea.

Scientists have strong beliefs just like everyone else, and scientists will shut themselves off to new ideas that challenge their beliefs just like everyone else.

I've received so much personal verification I don't even know where to begin, so when a skeptic pops up I don't have the time or the patience to deal with them.  Not trying to be mean, that's just how I feel.  If skeptics would take an ounce of effort and use Moen's or Monroe's methods, they would see for themselves.

I agree that individual scientists are just people with the same prejudices, hang ups etc. as everyone else but one thing I like about science itself (at least when done properly !)is that things are not just accepted as facts just because someone prominent or respected said its true (unlike faith-based belief systems).For example Einstein was an acknowledged genius, but his idea of a cosmological constant ('my biggest mistake') was ultimately rejected by his peers.

I've heard people say having an open mind leaves room for  your brain to fall out. lol

I think the unwillingness to consider new or different ideas (of any kind) implies that one already knows everything there is to know and everything is judged by those beliefs. Clearly, that is not the case, so it doesn't follow that anyone should be "close minded" about anything. If there "measure" of things is correct, the new information will be refutable. Otherwise, it can add to the collective information base already established. Therefore, I have never understood why so many people are vehemently opposed to hearing new and/or different ideas. There is absolutely nothing to lose by consideration.

Surely you need to have a hypothesis in order to conduct scientific experimentation, and a hypothesis is a kind of provisional  opinion. But an open mind in forming the hypothesis and to the results which may prove or disprove it seems essential.  Without an open mind, where would inspiration find its way in?

[quote author=3C313D27313A36312633626D540 link=1324409783/0#0 date=1324409783
...
My personal view is that without open-mindedness to new experiences/data (to the paranormal and everything else in life) we just filter out anything which contradicts our current worldview and stagnate our evolutionary potential.
...[/quote]


[size=10]So true.

I've read other responses to your original post now and wanted to add that I, personally, think it's impossible for there to be TRUE open-mindedness in studies because it doesn't happen within a vacuum.

Almost all research is funded by contributions from various entities (ie. individuals, corporations, government, etc.) and those financial backers want certain results (regardless of what the study actually shows).

I was reading an article over the weekend about the value of Vitamin D (absorbed from the sun) and how many people are deficient. I looked back further to find that a popular skin cream company re-marketed their products from "tanning" to "sunscreen" to jump on the hype of UV rays causing various cancers. Now, we have several generations of people with other health conditions related to lack of Vitamin D in the body. Lo and behold, now there is a prescription strength for Vitamin D and a whole line of new books about the value of the sun's rays (in moderation).

The point is...hardly anybody ever researches the "back story" on anything and will blindly just accept whatever looks "official." This is why marketing executives make millions of dollars = it's to give the impression they speak from authority. Celebrities are given free luxury items and endorsement fees to put their name/face with products because all it takes is fancy advertising to sway the masses.

I'm not an authority, but I have been kicked out a doctor's office for bringing in studies on side-effects of a medication he wanted to prescribe to me. Statistically, the percentages were much higher than he said (or was told and repeated) and he was furious at me for asking for clarification. He ripped up the papers in my face, yelled and swore at me for even daring to ask him such a thing (funny, after he asked me if I had any questions). If a doctor can't be confident in his own knowledge of what he's advising a patient (and feel that rattled from a simple question) then what possible reason should I believe doctors/scientists are even more willing to consider theories and ideas outside their own expectations of conclusions?  :-X

mjd-

'Almost all research is funded by contributions from various entities (ie. individuals, corporations, government, etc.) and those financial backers want certain results (regardless of what the study actually shows). '

I think this is a big factor, limiting research into the afterlife.If there are no large profits to be made big companies are not interested and so organisations such as IONS,TMI and Windbridge rely on private donations from people sympathetic to their work.

Regarding science and scientists I believe it is important that scientists are honest with themselves regarding their prior expectations and beliefs and the effect this may have on their experiments. Ideally a scientist should go where the data takes them and theorise after seeing the data. Also these theories are contingent on the discovery of new data and never set in stone. There was an earlier thread on the Scole Experiements, for example, and I believe that it is unscientific to reject it out of hand a priori i.e prior to experience, because it could'nt happen or does'nt conform to prior expectations. The world may indeed be a wierd and wonderful place but we'll never know without a level of open mindedness !

D

MJ,
I think you need a new doctor. But I guess that horse is out of the barn.

Bardo wrote on Jan 16^th, 2012 at 10:03am:

MJ, I think you need a new doctor. But I guess that horse is out of the barn.

Bardo,

You made me LOL. I've never heard that expression.

No, I never went back to that doctor. Unfortunately, he is not the only one I've met that way. There was an episode of "Designing Women" many years ago where someone found a lump or something. Julia (Dixie Carter) went to the person's doctor to ask for more information and he was smug and condescending toward her exclaiming "Let me do the worrying" to which she replied "And, will you do the dying for her?!?!?!"

There have been many times in my life I've volunteered to go with friends and strangers to the doctor, not so much because I believe modern medicine is the end-all-be-all solution, but because I believe the barrier to care for many people is fear of the unknown. In many cases, these people wanted to know, but where afraid to take that first step, so I would go with them just for moral support and to help ask questions they were too scared to ask or couldn't think of because of the anxiety of just being there. So, I've seen more than "my share" of that kind of doctor - both personally and with others. Eek. Fortunately, I've met a few of the good and knowledgeable kind as well.

Thanks for the laugh,
mj

heisenberg69 wrote on Jan 16^th, 2012 at 5:21am:

mjd- 'Almost all research is funded by contributions from various entities (ie. individuals, corporations, government, etc.) and those financial backers want certain results (regardless of what the study actually shows). ' I think this is a big factor, limiting research into the afterlife.If there are no large profits to be made big companies are not interested and so organisations such as IONS,TMI and Windbridge rely on private donations from people sympathetic to their work. Regarding science and scientists I believe it is important that scientists are honest with themselves regarding their prior expectations and beliefs and the effect this may have on their experiments. Ideally a scientist should go where the data takes them and theorise after seeing the data. Also these theories are contingent on the discovery of new data and never set in stone. There was an earlier thread on the Scole Experiements, for example, and I believe that it is unscientific to reject it out of hand a priori i.e prior to experience, because it could'nt happen or does'nt conform to prior expectations. The world may indeed be a wierd and wonderful place but we'll never know without a level of open mindedness ! D

Hi Heisenberg69,

So true. However, it's a Catch-22. They can't get the funding without a grant proposal and those usually stipulate the type of results they are searching for. So, do they lie on the paperwork to get the money (which impacts funding in future years) or do they play the game of claiming to do unbiased "research"?

As far as paranormal research goes...in my personal experience, I have absolutely no control over what I see or hear or when it happens and I've been living with it my entire life. I can't begin to imagine how it would be duplicated in a research lab. Notwithstanding that, I believe most of what we've been taught about religion and God and the afterlife is fear-based to control the masses. If it could be scientifically proven to be a method by which "John Q. Public" could find the inner peace for himself AND make the world a better place by truly living "love thy neighbor" what would happen to the world's economy? Pharmaceutical sales would plummet because people wouldn't need anti-depressants and anti-anxiety and anti-life (OK, I made that one up) pills. Psychiatrists and other mental health workers would be out of jobs. Jails would not be overflowing because people would find a way to get along. This would unemploy police officers, probation officers, truant officers and all the others in that field. And on and on.

So, from a purely economic standpoint, it is more than clear why there is not and can not ever be any real effort to prove this information to the masses. It's just too easy to keep people toeing the line of dependency on the "higher ups" to seek consolation, forgiveness and salvation.

Regards,
mj

'So, from a purely economic standpoint, it is more than clear why there is not and can not ever be any real effort to prove this information to the masses. It's just too easy to keep people toeing the line of dependency on the "higher ups" to seek consolation, forgiveness and salvation.'

MJ-

I am basically an optimist who believes we have made progress and will continue to do so. There was probably an economic argument that banning bear baiting and abolishing slavery would put bear baiters and slave traders out of business too- but those practices were still abolished ! I believe that the global mindset is changed increment by increment and each of us helps towards that when we choose open-mindedness over tunnel vision, curiosity wins over fear and dogma and enlightening ideas are shared on forums such as this ! You personally inspire when you share your choice of love over revenge and hate (even when many in your situation would have chosen the latter).That is how change happens- through the choices of individuals.

'A rising tide raises all ships' !

Dave

heisenberg69 wrote on Jan 18^th, 2012 at 3:48am:

'[i]That is how change happens- through the choices of individuals. 'A rising tide raises all ships' ! Dave

Hi Dave,

Absolutely!  ::) Sometimes, it's just so hard to watch someone suffer and go through things that aren't necessary because they simply won't consider the idea that another option is available to them. At one time I believed that access to information would be the doorway to all possibilities for everyone. Yet, I've seen that door closed over and over and over again because of unwillingness (for whatever reason) to even consider something beyond what is already known and this is not just limited to ideas about the paranormal, per se. I understand why we tend to hold onto what is familiar, but I still haven't grasped why that is so strong even when the familiar is painful. It's like the joke when the guy goes to the doctor and says "Doc, it hurts when I move my arm like this." (while moving his arm) to which the doctor replies "Well, stop doing that."  ;D

Kind regards,
mj

P.S. I intended to mention that I understand the learning comes from the experience, but I'm referring to situations where the decisions aren't creating any growth or understanding. It almost feels like I'm watching a movie on continuous play with the performers just changing roles.

Mj-

.... but then maybe nothing happens, nothing happens .... and then an epiphany moment and it suddenly clicks into place.Its a bit like that old story of a man hitting a boulder thousands of times without success until one final hit makes it crack in two; but it would never have happened without those previous hits.I remember reading of Bruce describing how he observed the rapid progress of a woman he did'nt think was very evolved, when she finally 'got it'.I guess some people are faster learners than others !

D

heisenberg69 wrote on Jan 18^th, 2012 at 7:13am:

Mj- .... but then maybe nothing happens, nothing happens .... and then an epiphany moment and it suddenly clicks into place.Its a bit like that old story of a man hitting a boulder thousands of times without success until one final hit makes it crack in two; but it would never have happened without those previous hits.I remember reading of Bruce describing how he observed the rapid progress of a woman he did'nt think was very evolved, when she finally 'got it'.I guess some people are faster learners than others ! D

Hi D!

You are so right. Back in elementary school we were all given tests to measure our reading and math skills. I placed in high school levels for both, so I was relegated to the office to file papers and answer phones during those classes. Needless to say, that got pretty boring. ;-) I decided to ask if I could help with the other classes and it was granted. Thus, my love of helping people bridge the gap between the lesson and how they understood it. I tutored many, many students over the years and it is always a glorious moment when I see that spark pop in their eyes when they "get it"! It is great. Now...if I can just figure out how to do that for myself. ;-)

Kind regards,
mj

Mj- You seem to be doing pretty well from where I'm sitting !

D

heisenberg69 wrote on Jan 18^th, 2012 at 2:59pm:

Mj- You seem to be doing pretty well from where I'm sitting ! D

Hi D,

Thanks. I guess I just feel like I've not managed to really understand what I am "to do" with the gifts I've been given. I mean, not only have I not effected any kind of change within my family (and what other purpose could there be for me to be so openly hated by them?) but they've managed to cause grief and strife in other areas of my life. It's really hard constantly starting over and picking up the pieces. And, whether or not I agreed to it before I was born into this body, it's just more than I'm capable of handling and I just want some peace.

There is a small part (I guess it's selfish) that wants to have real parents - people I can turn to when I'm tired or frustrated or unsure. I want to have big family meals together with them enjoying their grandchildren. I want to have at least ONE photograph of me with my family (they put all my siblings photos up, but never mine). I want my children to be loved and cherished the way other grandparents cherish and love theirs and I feel responsible because the only reason they are ignored and hated is because I am ignored and hated. Yes, I'm aware none of this matters in the afterlife, but, right now, today, I'm living on this plane and the rejection is incredibly painful.

The only thing I know how to do is continue to love and to be a different kind of parent to my children. I can and do cherish each moment with them and try to help them feel safe, secure and accepted. I want them to know, without any doubt or hesitation, that I will ALWAYS be there for them (not to prevent them from growing into responsible adults but,) to be the foundation of never-ending love and support throughout their lives. Various people blamed me for what happened in my family. They told me that I didn't understand because I didn't have children (I'm an "older" parent). Yet, now that I do, I find myself being less understanding of what they did to me. I see my precious children, their vulnerabilities, desires to be heard, their sweet laughter and silly jokes and I find myself unable to fathom what happened to me. I would meet death before I caused harm to my children or allowed anyone else to. Yet, those decisions ruled my life not only without hesitation, but with over-the-top pleasure at doing so.

I guess what I'm saying is I'm afraid that I've become less forgiving and understanding as I've aged. I don't feel the emotion of hatred or jealousy so I don't have anything to compare that to. However, I have felt unconditional love and now I've changed the rules. When it was just me, I had no trouble going back and trying once again. Now, I absolutely refuse to subject my children to it and although I know that's the safest solution for all of us, it causes me to feel like I failed - failed at being a strong enough example that at least one of my relationships within my family (immediate or extended) could have been salvaged. Instead, it's become a mob mentality of ostracization toward me and my current family. And, in that, I can't help but wonder "What's the point?" My tolerance, love, ability to forgive and to try again haven't changed anything which is what led to initial post on this forum. If I can't figure out this major lesson in my life, I will come back and have to repeat it and I just don't have any idea how to make it better.  :-/

Regards,
mj

P.S. In the interest of not confusing the matter, this is not an issue I only face within my family. I've dealt with it in the workplace (some experiences were posted in another discussion) and in other relationships. I use my family of origin situation as the core example because it's been the longest and most intense, but the "question" is repeating throughout many other relationships in my life.

MJD,

You have had a difficult life experience.  I sense that you may be trying to explain the unexplainable.  Or that you feel there may be an insight you need to experience or apology to come from those who have been callus or mean-spirited. 

It sounds to me that in order to overcome these experiences you need to forgive others and yourself as you move on.  This is not so straight forward.  The notion that we have been slighted, causes most of us to react defend and let the wound fester.  I can't pretend to be expert on this topic. 

I don't think you are missing something and will need to repeat earth-life again till you make more sense out of abusive happenings.  Unless that is what your soul wants to do.  We are bound by karma unless we see another way.  I feel we are captains of our own destinies, but some see themselves as being acted on  rather than steering their own ship.  If you are acted on by forces outside your control, then you truly are bound on a karmic wheel.  Just keep in mind, it is all in your point of view and open mindedness (hence the topic of discussion).

I had a maternal grandmother who was the kindest soul I've known.  My mother's sister felt bitter toward her for years, saying that my grandmother always gave the best treats and more love to my mother than to her.  This was not true.  However my aunt spent years in therapy, and at family dinners saying how this unequal love continued to affect her life.  It wasn't fair, and it wasn't true.  But my aunt didn't (and doesn't) let it go.  She didn't forgive herself and pass on to greener pastures.  This is my main gripe about overanalyzing the past.  We live in the ever present.

M

DocM wrote on Jan 19^th, 2012 at 9:40am:

MJD, You have had a difficult life experience.  I sense that you may be trying to explain the unexplainable.  Or that you feel there may be an insight you need to experience or apology to come from those who have been callus or mean-spirited.  It sounds to me that in order to overcome these experiences you need to forgive others and yourself as you move on.  This is not so straight forward.  The notion that we have been slighted, causes most of us to react defend and let the wound fester.  I can't pretend to be expert on this topic.  I don't think you are missing something and will need to repeat earth-life again till you make more sense out of abusive happenings.  Unless that is what your soul wants to do.  We are bound by karma unless we see another way.  I feel we are captains of our own destinies, but some see themselves as being acted on  rather than steering their own ship.  If you are acted on by forces outside your control, then you truly are bound on a karmic wheel.  Just keep in mind, it is all in your point of view and open mindedness (hence the topic of discussion). I had a maternal grandmother who was the kindest soul I've known.  My mother's sister felt bitter toward her for years, saying that my grandmother always gave the best treats and more love to my mother than to her.  This was not true.  However my aunt spent years in therapy, and at family dinners saying how this unequal love continued to affect her life.  It wasn't fair, and it wasn't true.  But my aunt didn't (and doesn't) let it go.  She didn't forgive herself and pass on to greener pastures.  This is my main gripe about overanalyzing the past.  We live in the ever present. M

Hi Matthew,

Thank you for your post. I do not want or expect an apology. I have forgiven my family and I do not want anything from them other than for them to find some peace and comfort in their old age. I'm hesitant to write anything else because I think it may be misinterpreted as me being selfish.

Thanks again,
mj

Hi mjd,

  Just wanted to say that you have a very lovely energy, and glad to see you here. 

Hi MJ,

I understand.  Yet any who read your posts would know that you were not selfish.  Your spirit comes through with love, even as you told about your past. 

M

Mj-

I do think some people have more difficult lives than others and maybe you're one of those on  some kind of spiritual 'fast track' ! I suppose looking from a limited perspective we can only guess and hope to know the truth later.Unfortunately I know of no way of making someone love you. Every overture you make will be misinterpreted and given a negative spin - your motives disparaged, mocked and twisted. Evidence from people who have had near death experiences suggests that at some point your family will understand their folly and  the pain they have caused.

In the mean time the important thing is that you are determined that you will not make the same mistakes with your children and so won't be passed on down the line. As Harry Truman would have said " the buck stops here" ! 

D

p.s Have you read Signals by Joel Rothschild ?

The form, type, housing, medium of the experience, be it daily life, mundane or extraordinary, within the family of origin, in intimate relationship, with friend, with peers, professional/workplace, neighbourly, societal/social, connected or seemingly disconnected with others, in health or ill-health, mental, emotional, physical, meditative, visionary, intuitive, in dream/s, in body or OOB and degree/type of consciousness, is all beside the point. It is the content of the experience and the lessons learned from it that is relevant.

What are life's experiences saying/teaching to you? to your soul?    

wrote on Jan 19^th, 2012 at 10:48am:

Hi mjd,   Just wanted to say that you have a very lovely energy, and glad to see you here.

Hi Jason aka Vasya,

Thank you for your kind comments. It's nice being here.

Kind regards,
mj




DocM wrote on Jan 19^th, 2012 at 10:53am:

Hi MJ, I understand.  Yet any who read your posts would know that you were not selfish.  Your spirit comes through with love, even as you told about your past.  M

Hi Matthew,

Thank you again.

Kind regards,
mj

heisenberg69 wrote on Jan 19^th, 2012 at 7:18pm:

Mj- I do think some people have more difficult lives than others and maybe you're one of those on  some kind of spiritual 'fast track' ! I suppose looking from a limited perspective we can only guess and hope to know the truth later.Unfortunately I know of no way of making someone love you. Every overture you make will be misinterpreted and given a negative spin - your motives disparaged, mocked and twisted. Evidence from people who have had near death experiences suggests that at some point your family will understand their folly and  the pain they have caused. In the mean time the important thing is that you are determined that you will not make the same mistakes with your children and so won't be passed on down the line. As Harry Truman would have said " the buck stops here" !  D p.s Have you read Signals by Joel Rothschild ?

Hi D,

I'm not trying to make them understand anything and I've stopped trying to be "good enough" to be accepted. Although I would never admit this anywhere else (I wouldn't lie about it, but I certainly wouldn't openly talk about it) I've had too many experiences in which it defies all logic that I survived. Thus, the question for me is "Why would I survive X if it wasn't meant to teach me something?" That's where I'm stuck. I can't figure it out.

No, I haven't read that book but I will look it up. Thanks for mentioning it.

Thank you,
mj

crossbow wrote on Jan 20^th, 2012 at 12:03am:

The form, type, housing, medium of the experience, be it daily life, mundane or extraordinary, within the family of origin, in intimate relationship, with friend, with peers, professional/workplace, neighbourly, societal/social, connected or seemingly disconnected with others, in health or ill-health, mental, emotional, physical, meditative, visionary, intuitive, in dream/s, in body or OOB and degree/type of consciousness, is all beside the point. It is the content of the experience and the lessons learned from it that is relevant. What are life's experiences saying/teaching to you? to your soul?

Hi Crossbow,

You explained it much better than I have any of my posts (or inside my head). :D  I *feel* like I'm stuck and I don't know how to get unstuck. I have to get the day started here, but will try to expound on this in a bit.

Thanks for your post,
mj

P.S. D, would you prefer for me to start a new topic? I didn't mean to take over your discussion on Open Mindedness.

I should add something here about the notion of "life lessons," because it contains a premise that I find to be tricky at best - --that we "choose" to experience adversities because overcoming them will teach us something and make us stronger. 

While on the surface this idea seems logical and straight forward enough, it contains a deep fallacy that in my mind binds the individual to the wheel of karma instead of freeing them.  You see, in it is the notion that we must reincarnate again and again to "get it right," and that we choose to experience a certain earthly hardship scenario in order to grow spiritually.

My explorations have shown that we choose our thoughts and our reality shapes alongside them.  There is little evidence that from the time we are babies our life path is pre-chosen; only potentials and core desires which manifest along our present. 

The notion that suffering is usually good/noble is one of the most misguided and cruelest notions that we perpetuate on each other in terms of teaching.  Take the concept of money.  We are told that "money is the root of all evil."  Many such sayings exist.  We also are told that living in poverty is noble and spiritually cleansing.  Now in the sense that becoming attached to material things leads us away from the path of love, that is correct.  But money itself neither is good or bad.  It is our thoughts and actions; why we acquire the money and what we do with it that matters. 

Hence, if someone welcomes money into their life and incorporates it to use for their highest good, contributes to charity/society, helps others - for that person they have overcome the common notion that "money is the root of all evil."  It is not.

The same is true for the idea of a pre-destined life and adversity. Adverse situations may be attracted to you by a secret fear or thought.  In this way, the soul comes into its own. Our deepest convictions manifest in our lives including our deepest loves and that which we dread (if we believe it will inevitably happen).  When we learn that we can choose our thought and conviction in deep meditation, we attract to our lives that which we deliberately direct, for the most part, and are masters of our own vessels.

I wouldn't pretend to analyze the adversities of another.  That is best left to any individual.  And another key component is that random energies change our fate in the earth plane.  The tsunami that wiped out 200,000 people was random energy.  These people did not, I am sure "agree" before they were born, to incarnate and die this way.  That sort of thought is rubbish.  Random energies either by natural disaster or created by other people can throw our lives off in unexpected ways.  We recover quickly if we master our thoughts and actions in the aftermath. 

Sorry to get on the soapbox here.  I guess what I'm saying is: if a person believes in predestination and that you must learn from overcoming adversity, they are buying into the karmic scheme, essentially binding themselves to the ol' karmic wheel, and then watching it turn, without any control of their fate.  "It was meant to be," they nod - but if only they knew!  The choice and divinity behind it all was dormant within themselves the whole time.

Matthew

Mathew,
I suffer from the correlary to your karmic rack. Whenever I am doing well in life, materially speaking, I feel guilty and await the "other shoe" which I know is going to drop sooner or later. It is a self-defeating as believing that to suffer in poverty is useful and necessary.  My protestant upbringing, I suppose. I do believe that thought is causitive, but struggle with a consistent meditative approach.

All of life's conditions, unpleasant and pleasant, carry their lessons, their opportunities for learning and growth. 

Matthew,

I write the following with the utmost respect and sincerity and hope it can be received in the spirit in which it's intended. I do not mean any harm or ill will in this discussion (or forum).

Ever since our first PM communication I have felt uncomfortable talking to you about this belief system. I vehemently disagree that our experiences are merely the result of our thoughts. I was abused before I was old enough to write, let alone formulate a thought to introduce such hatred and negativity into my life. In high school, I volunteered to go to a children's hospital to make taffy apples for the kids during Halloween. I ended up in the bathroom vomiting and crying hysterically on the floor because I met a girl, 9 years old, whose father threw rubbing alcohol on her and set her on fire because he was angry at her mother. I absolutely refuse to believe this precious child did anything, thoughtfully or thoughtlessly, to bring that on herself. My cousin was shot in the leg by his step-father. His mother not only stayed with this man, but denies that it was "as bad as all that." I was locked in a basement and basically tortured and my mother laughed in my face when I told her I would pray that God would heal her heart in spite of what she was doing to me. I was six, btw. I can sit here all day and type 90wpm giving you example after example, but know it will not make a difference. I know you have your belief system and wholeheartedly accept it as true. And, it is, for you. I just refuse to accept any responsibility or blame for what was done to me and that idea is exactly what society wants abuse survivors to believe. Yes, we are told it's not our fault, but every system in place, including Allen's "theory" are all designed to make us responsible for what we survived.

I can love and forgive my abusers. I can make different choices in my life to bring up my children a different way and embrace and help every child in my path (and, I have put myself in physical danger to help children I see being hurt). I can continue to keep love and respect for all human beings in my heart. But, I will not ever accept that I (or anyone else) has created the hatred, negativity and toxicity that is so prevalent in this world and to which some of us have absolutely no control.

In the interest of not hi-jacking this discussion, I respectfully will remove myself from any further exchange on this topic.

As always, thank you,
mj

MJD,

You misunderstand my post.  I am not sure why.  The belief that thought can guide and shape your life does NOT account for the energies and thoughts of others.  If a monstrous father threw alcohol on a child as you described, the child did not bring that on by thought.  The child was, unfortunately a victim of the energies and bad thoughts of another.  This is what I meant by random or unforseen energies.

The victim is not to blame in terms of thought in these instances.  Unfortunately, if the thoughts and actions of others are dark, they create much suffering.

However, it is up to us where to go from there.  I have seen in my own situation that some on Linn's forum know of, and I will go into more detail with if asked, that deep thought and meditation can change probabilities in the world, even when things seem at their worst.  It does work.  As Bardo said, it is just hard to be mindful of it.

So in essence, I think it misguided to look for a reason for all suffering - that we asked for it before birth, or that we must go through it.  I do not believe that you brought your bad life circumstances upon yourself - more that a person is exposed to the energies of others at times with bad outcomes.

I do believe that we have the ability to change our circumstances going forward however.  I have done it for myself and seen others.  There are numerous recorded accounts of this happening.  Just as you can cite injustices done against those who were innocent, I can cite numerous miraculous improvements in people who managed to harness their creative power after being a victim.

So please don't misunderstand my post.   My main point was that suffering is not pre-planned in most instances (as some reincarnationists believe) and is not required for all of us.  I have seen the power of thought coupled with conviction to heal  - it is real.

Bardo, one of my favorite quotes from James Allen was:

"Men are anxious to improve their circumstances, but are unwilling to improve themselves, they therefore remain bound."


Matthew

crossbow wrote on Jan 20^th, 2012 at 12:03am:

The form, type, housing, medium of the experience, be it daily life, mundane or extraordinary, within the family of origin, in intimate relationship, with friend, with peers, professional/workplace, neighbourly, societal/social, connected or seemingly disconnected with others, in health or ill-health, mental, emotional, physical, meditative, visionary, intuitive, in dream/s, in body or OOB and degree/type of consciousness, is all beside the point. It is the content of the experience and the lessons learned from it that is relevant. What are life's experiences saying/teaching to you? to your soul?

Hi Crossbow (I like that screen name),

My heart has always been drawn to advocating for others, especially those who are "voiceless" in our society.

I've been trying to find my spirit guide to help me figure out what I'm doing wrong (or not doing) but I haven't been successful at that. I'm aware of receiving messages through my dreams, but nothing on a conscious level that I know how to interpret. As I'm sure you are aware, there aren't many venues in which a person can openly discuss such "crazy" talk. ;-) I know I am not crazy despite my family's best effort to convince me and everyone around me. However, that doesn't change the fact that I am having experiences that aren't widely known or discussed. I suppose I could just ignore it but that hasn't panned out too well (smile). Yet, I have no idea what it all means or what my soul is trying to accomplish.

Lately, I've been feeling weary...just overly exhausted about everything. People say it helps to help others and that's true, to a point. I've always been involved in helping others and it hasn't altered this inner feeling that I'm just "spinning my wheels" and I'm supposed to be doing something else.

Kind regards,
mj

yeah ... life can get like that.  

(whisper) Just between you and me - I wouldn't spend too much time looking for a spirit guide. Finding our own soul is more fulfilling than finding a spirit guide.

Knowing your luck you'd probably find an abusive spirit guide anyway.

But we all have souls.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EY39fkmqKBM

crossbow wrote on Jan 20^th, 2012 at 1:32pm:

yeah ... life can get like that.   (whisper) Just between you and me - I wouldn't spend too much time looking for a spirit guide. Finding our own soul is more fulfilling than finding a spirit guide. Knowing your luck you'd probably find an abusive spirit guide anyway. But we all have souls. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EY39fkmqKBM

Hi Crossbow,

You are funny. I suspect you are correct that I'd meet Darth Vadar (or of that ilk) on the other side. :P And, that possibility is one of the reasons I've never tried to do anything other than through my lucid dreams. I've been reading a website on connecting with the Higher self and will try that.

About the youtube video... ;D I really did LOL.

Kind regards,
mj

I'm pleased you had a laugh, mjd. I make myself laugh regularly. Its good thereapy, a useful tool for cracking unpleasant emotions and moods. I find there's usually something funny going on, I just have to make the effort to see it. Sometimes its nothing in particular but I have a laugh at it anyway.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dFJSp0XeGUU

That red headed kid is funny isn't he. He does seem to take himself a little too seriously though. Maybe he should take on some of this lady's advice.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2sXS4ywdR9k&feature=results_main&playnext=1&list=PL7B2E6FF1ABD82EDE

So you're gonna have a crack at connecting with your higherself hey?  From what I observe there are all sorts of methods of contacting one's higherself being taught on the web and in books, some old and most new. I hope it goes well.   

Like the thread says, be open minded, or rather, clear minded.  

Oh, and warm hearted too.