Hello everyone,

Thanks for ur replies to my previous post.While we r seeking answers, i am, not a skeptic, i guess we have just not found our faith in it.

So the question is...for all skeptics

What proof is enough to believe? ::)

seeking_answers wrote on Nov 7^th, 2011 at 10:27am:

What proof is enough to believe? ::)

To me, I have all the proof I need...as for sceptics, they will come to their own conclusions and ideally be open to the "proof" that will come their way.  It is their choice as to how to figure out if it is valid for them.

Ah Seeking Answers :),

in my eyes, the question is wrong.

Proof does not make one believe, proof means knowledge, right? Belief does not need to be 100% proved, hence the word "believe".

I`ve answered your questions in PM and therefore you know that I can feel with you about the difficulties you are going through. But I do not think anyone seeking 100% convincing, empirical, repeatable, scientific-according-to-the-current-methodology-and-standard proof for the existence of an afterlife will be successful at least at the time we are living in currently.

When you deal with science a lot, by the way, you will find that very many complex phenomena can be discounted in some convincing scientific way as not being proved enough.

Keep an open mind, Seeker, and do not despair. Life, the universe and everything is too complex to be proved with what we know at the current moment. It may all be and it may all not be. What we do know is that life is very beautiful and precious and that the universe is a place full of mystery and wonder.

Seeking,
My response to your other post is pertinent to this one too:
Every single scientific advance in history began with a question, an unknown. If you wait for science to catch up with truth, you will waste another lifetime. The greatest scientists in history truly BELIEVED in their theories. In some cases, they were vindicated in their beliefs, and in others not. Just because "science" has not "proven" to its own satisfacton, that the soul survives, does not mean that it doesn't.

The skeptics answer.......

When dealing with spiritualistic matters in regards to an afterlife......

#1. 5 people (sitters) pulled off the street by the skeptic.

#2. 5 spiritual mediums, chosen by the skeptic, seated with a divider between the chosen sitters.

#3. The sitters only able to give yes or no responses which are later verified with other sources by the skeptic.

#4. No less than 3 HIGHLY accurate readings with MAJOR hits from the mediums with no sign of cold reading.


Yes... all this AND the skeptic MUST be present for the testing, data recording, and verification process.


P.S. POOP on Gary Schwartz and his 2 sequel books which go all crazy go nuts on the afterlife, making assumptions and raking in the profits.

You know Focus, i think the best way to go would be drunk, at least i wouldnt be so afraid then...thinking about it when sober scares the fcuk out of me :o

Hey Seeking....

You can't go to Outer space!!!!

....Oh wait!

You can't split an atom!!!!

....Oh wait!

You can't live forever!!!!

....Just wait.  :D

hmmm..thts true.......

Most people don't know this.....

But we have even done Nuclear Fusion.... yes. the wierd scientific Nuclear fusion said to power all sorts of crazy gizmos.......

We HAVE fused TWO atoms together. The resulting explosion of power is... INSANE. Barely contained. In fact, it, is not a feasible source of power simply because in order to contain the power takes too much containment!!!!

LOL!   ;D

are u hinting towards immortality in the coming future?

Sure I am.... but with the current state of technology and our current strives in life extension, the people in this era will still likely die in the hundreds/hundreds and teens. We just aren't quite at the point of stopping cellular degeneration through telomares getting shorter from each cell division which causes age spots and overall cell death and, eventually human death. In order to stop aging, we have to stop it at a cellular level, which means finding a way to keep cells dividing and replenishing continuously.

I have little doubt we will some day have the answer to this.

problem is where to look for proof.
looking outside of yourself, you find nothing there.
deep inside oneself is all proof one can find.
outside is no proof for anything.

Proof versus model.

As a software writer, you create a model, according to which you write a software. Then - the software either works (less or more correctly) or not.

First - it's a matter of abstraction layer and model, then - you can seek for proof, staring by defining it's parameters.

It is simple as that. The rest resides in emotions. People buy your software or not. It depends on needs and marketing, which is are a matter of yet another layer of abstraction (-;

Proof versus model.

Focus & seeking,

First of all I'm not attacking either of you for being here, if it seems like I am I promise you I'm not, it's what I'm like.

The thing is I really don't understand why you have this fear of death, you could say that I accept the afterlife so that is why I don't fear it but it's not. Not once in my life have I ever feared it and I have only accepted the afterlife this year, I'm 29 by the way.

Focus,

"Sure I am.... but with the current state of technology and our current strives in life extension, the people in this era will still likely die in the hundreds/hundreds and teens. We just aren't quite at the point of stopping cellular degeneration through telomares getting shorter from each cell division which causes age spots and overall cell death and, eventually human death. In order to stop aging, we have to stop it at a cellular level, which means finding a way to keep cells dividing and replenishing continuously.

I have little doubt we will some day have the answer to this."

So in several thousand years you believe that we will have the key to eternal life? Fair enough but old age is just one way that we can die. How about the 10000001 other ways too.

Not to mention you, me and everyone currently on earth will be dead by this time so pinning your hopes on this is futile. You have already acknowledged this yourself.

Also,

Who wants to spend eternity in this s**thole anyway?  ::).

Regardless of what you believe death is inevitable, once you are born you are going to die at some point. You can die in many ways at any time, I suppose you can take action to prevent potential death situations but there will always be that one time where it will happen and there's nothing you can do about it.

I'm not trying to make you feel worse I tell it like it is, there's little point in sugar coating it.

Live your life while you have it, if you want something then go and get it, all the time you're worrying about death it is slowly creeping up on you and then you've wasted your time worrying about what is going to happen anyway.

I just think it's rather silly and illogical, that's all  :).

Andy

Hey Andy,

Yeah it does sound illogical at times to many, but so is the fear of water etc. if given a choice id rather live without this fear, and i try VERY hard to shake it off..and secondly, although all the older members are here due to the knowledge of afterlife, there are some, who r here because they fear death. its just that they come and go, and hardly stick around.

Trust me it feels shitty everyday living with that fear, and of losing my family....i'd rather not fear..but i feel helpless..some ppl cope up, i find it hard.

PS- u spoke ur mind andy, its all good in the hood. Your honest replies are always accepted and respected :)

Andy B wrote on Nov 8^th, 2011 at 4:51pm:

Focus & seeking, First of all I'm not attacking either of you for being here, if it seems like I am I promise you I'm not, it's what I'm like. The thing is I really don't understand why you have this fear of death, you could say that I accept the afterlife so that is why I don't fear it but it's not. Not once in my life have I ever feared it and I have only accepted the afterlife this year, I'm 29 by the way. Focus, "Sure I am.... but with the current state of technology and our current strives in life extension, the people in this era will still likely die in the hundreds/hundreds and teens. We just aren't quite at the point of stopping cellular degeneration through telomares getting shorter from each cell division which causes age spots and overall cell death and, eventually human death. In order to stop aging, we have to stop it at a cellular level, which means finding a way to keep cells dividing and replenishing continuously. I have little doubt we will some day have the answer to this." So in several thousand years you believe that we will have the key to eternal life? Fair enough but old age is just one way that we can die. How about the 10000001 other ways too. Not to mention you, me and everyone currently on earth will be dead by this time so pinning your hopes on this is futile. You have already acknowledged this yourself. Also, Who wants to spend eternity in this s**thole anyway?  ::). Regardless of what you believe death is inevitable, once you are born you are going to die at some point. You can die in many ways at any time, I suppose you can take action to prevent potential death situations but there will always be that one time where it will happen and there's nothing you can do about it. I'm not trying to make you feel worse I tell it like it is, there's little point in sugar coating it. Live your life while you have it, if you want something then go and get it, all the time you're worrying about death it is slowly creeping up on you and then you've wasted your time worrying about what is going to happen anyway. I just think it's rather silly and illogical, that's all  :). Andy

Focus, Seeking et al,
Like it or not, you will die. And believe it or not, your soul will live on. It does not matter whether you believe now it or not, although it will make your passage much simpler and more pleasurable if you do.  It is the way. It happens with or without your conscious participation. The matter of belief systems and their affect on your journey is another matter.

Like Andy, I do not understand fearing something that will occur...that we cannot control, outside of assuring it will happen when you pull the trigger.  I have undergone many past life regressions and each one ends with the death of that incarnation.  Each time I died there was no pain.  On some occasions there was pressure at the point of being struck or shot, on others there was difficulty breathing, many of them held a sense of surprise, but never was there anything sustained afterwards except relief and an overpowering sense of accomplishment. 

The human view of death is that transitioning is considered a tragedy...but we are spiritual beings inhabiting a temporary human body that will carry us in this illusion of third dimensional separateness.  Our eternal souls obviously consider living temporary lifetimes here on earth and elsewhere a valid and worthy exercise and they certainly have a bigger perspective than do we. I try to focus on living this life and following the clues or breadcrumbs my soul left to help me figure out my lifeplan...I don't fear death as it will occur and any effort placed in fearing it is wasted energy.

Over the last century I have died three times (1905, 1919, 1943) and in reviewing those lives (the first two due to head trauma in car accidents and the last due to attracting enemy machine gun bullets) the car accidents resulted in great surprise at the sense of the body turning off...some faint regret, but a strong sense of accomplishment and relief, while the war death felt inevitable...the moment I was struck I was only conscious of instant pressure and almost an ejection from the body, and the sense of having fulfilled the obligation and time for the next life. 

I know people now, both friends and loved ones, who were with me in each of those previous incarnations, and I have a strong sense of others who were there with me, so we are all in this together...and if that is the case, and I believe it is...again, what is to fear?

I would also refer you to the excellent missive Beau wrote some time ago likening our reinicarnation and subsequent death to actors on the stage, and the curtain falling is our death, only to plan the next play, or lifetime.

Hi useta,

some fears cannot be understood. Speaking of ur previous incarnations, now u have died 3 previous times. And each time is new, so then every time the "me" part is lost. As in after this lifetime, the "useta" part is erased and some new character takes over, so in a way its a loss of "self". i hope u understand my point, sorry if i confused u. :-?

Seeking...that is just it...those past lives are not lost.  The experiences they had are a part of me, and part of this "awakening to who you really are" is finding how to access those past lives and the wealth of information they carry available within you.  Think of them as characters in a play...and your soul is the actor.  The actor plays hundreds of roles over his lifetime, while your soul has hundreds of lives, each one a different role.  The actor has some roles that have greater impact than others, but they are still each his roles, while the soul does the same with lives.  Each soul/actor is a "me", and each role he plays is "me" as well...the actor infuses each character or role with a living being acting in accordance with the script, and the soul infuses each incarnate body with a living entity acting in accordance with its lifeplan...and like the actor leaving the script and extemporaneizing, the soul's incarnate body can exercise free will and deviate from the lifeplan.  Regardless, each character my soul plays is me, and the other me's are still here with me.   

I don't feel my past incarnations resulted in a loss of self, but rather they contributed to the knowledge and experience banks of my overall self, or my soul.  Since 1905 I have added Vinson, Vinson (nephew of the previous Vinson...yes, my surviving sister became my mother), Steven and now Scott to my overall self...I am all of them...they are all here with me, thus no loss.

This works well for me...I hope this helps.

Useta, u mentioned about the moments of death of ur previous incarnations, just a well...this might sound silly...did it make u relive the moment of death, as in the whole experience, or only the cause of it?

Hi Seeking, in short the reliving of the moment of death is an opportunity to gain understanding...about both the cause of death as well as everything leading up to it.  Fear is not present, nor is pain and anguish...remember you are seeing things as your soul sees them...a life is an opportunity to learn and experience...the soul lives forever and the human sense of tragedy does not exists for souls as nothing is irredeemable or uncorrectible. 

Each death I have reviewed included my emotions at the time and the understanding of the situation that caused the death.  They have combined both a view through the eyes of my former body as well as a bird's eye view, simultaneously which is cool.  It wasn't like reliving a horror scene, as there was a tremendous sense of love and compassion and no focus on blood and guts...again only the body has passed and the soul is pulling itself together and cataloging the details (so I could review it now!).  Emotions of others were clear, but not so much in a sympathetic sense because on the other side everyone is aware they will all be together soon anyway.  I have also felt a sense of judgment towards some of these incarnations when their actions have been selfish...apparently that is something I am working on during this incarnation.      

Physical pain was negligible in each...in fact the most I have felt has been pressure on the body and maybe a sense of shock.  It is my belief we are spared the memory of the bodily pain at the time of death.  Actually the worst death I experienced was one in which I was justifiably murdered with poison...as I watched myself writhing in death throes, I felt some sense of my own stomach rolling which was a little upsetting.  One of the easiest deaths I felt, besides the times I simply did not wake up, was an occasion where I bled to death.  Again, the death of machine gun fire was only sharp pressure and instantaneous removal from the body.  Easy every time.   

The timing of the transition in each life seems to determine the amount of sadness involved with the death.  In the Vinson deaths, one was aged 17 and the other 9, there was a very brief sense of longing, while with the 17 year old, I was actually angry at dying when I did...despite my lifeplan I had alot to live for!  The feeling of sadness seems to be sourced through the feelings of the survivors...souls are empathetic and the extreme emotions prevalent in incarnate beings sprays the area with high energy, so if a death was not expected there can be significant pain through that emotion broadcast by surviving loved ones.   

Once again, in my experience, the most significant sensation felt at every death has been a combination of relief and satisfaction...the other feelings seem to be determined by the circumstances, but nothing supercedes relief and satisfaction. 

Could then my fear of death be linked to my previous life...? shud i consider a past life regression course?

You could certainly try a past life hypnotic regression to locate the source of that fear...although you might be surprised to find it based in this lifetime.  A friend felt the same way you do about death and his was based in a rough childhood wherein he was adopted by a family member who mistreated him and he continually pined for his siblings in another location...the thought of them was his anchor and when he finally reunited with them he "bound himself to them with hoops of steel".  His fear was one of a repeated abandonment by those whom he loved...and it affected him into adulthood until it was located and eliminated through a regression.

In reality, we cannot be abandoned...our higher selves and soulmates are around us all the time, and we will not be conscious of it until we rejoin them on the other side.

I hope this helps.