Do the catholic miracles of Lanciano, Lourdes, Fatima etc not prove that the Catholic Church is right? And also the stigmata of Padre Pio, a Catholic saint and priest shows that Christ was crucified and is live in the Church?

What about Blessed Alexandrina who only ate Communion for over 10 years and stayed alive after Jesus appeared to her?

I suppose it depends on what you mean by the term "right."  What if we are spiritual beings, encased in physical bodies?  What if, on our most basic level, thought, combined with pure conviction can change physical reality by changing probabilities in the physical world?

What if there are examples of other healing sites to buddhist shrines, Jewish temples and holy men, etc?  Does this signify that these religions were the only true religions? 

What if the human spirit is capable of these things, and that miracles can occur if one learns to access this faith and conviction?  In the New Testament, Jesus alludes to the ability of the common person to do what he can do, and to achieve almost anything with faith.  (see the passage about faith the size of a mustard seed). 

So I suppose, from my perspective, these healing say more about our spiritual/divine nature than catholicism vs. Judaism vs. Hinduism, etc.  I don't, however,  begrudge catholics from using these healings to fortify their belief. 

Matthew

I believe it is better for a person to pay attention to his heart, intuition, higher reasoning and common sense before he pays attention to miracles.

We should never be afraid to try to figure things out for ourselves. I figure a being such as Jesus considers it admirable when he do so.

I don't believe that it is right for the Catholic Church to use these miracles to control what other people believe. Inspiration is fine, but not control.

Hi

So it seems like we (humanity) need more ways to designate these miracles, than just earning sainthood through one religion.

Does it take three miracles of the human spirit to earn sainthood recognized by the Catholic faith?  So what about an agnostic physician who saves three patients who had 'flatlined'? (Maybe hypothetical.) Or a Viennese Buddhist psychiatrist who saves three souls on the verge of suicide?  (Hypothetical again.)

There are miracles of the human spirit all around us, I suspect  :)

Betson

"The best religion is the religion that brings you closest to God." - Rev. Howard Storm
http://www.near-death.com/storm.html ;)

But what about the Christ stigmata of Padre Pio?

It makes me fear that everyone will go to Hell apart from Christians

Jdee:

The is from my book A Night in Heaven. Perhaps you will find it helpful:

Developing an understanding of who Jesus Christ was as a person and who he is today as a spirit has been a process for me. When I was into guru-based teachings I believed Jesus was a guru. When I found out that many gurus are fake, I figured the same was probably true for Jesus. After making contact with my spirit guidance I found that despite what I for the most part believed, I still had thought patterns that made me wonder if certain fundamentalist Christian ideas are true. Is God an angry, wrathful, vengeful and jealous being who eternally punishes people who act in a manner he considers inappropriate? Is it true that Satan gets to people who don’t have the right sort of faith and don’t live their life in the right way? These concerns were quite contrary to my overall way of thinking, yet they still persisted, because I hadn’t examined them enough to come to a definite conclusion.

The main thing that helped me get over the idea that God‘s nature includes the negative traits some people attribute to him, is when I chose to listen to my heart and common sense. My heart told me that whatever divine truth is, it has to feel good. I felt this was true for various reasons. One, my spiritual experiences always felt good with a really nice feeling of peace, and the idea of an angry, wrathful, vengeful and jealous God just didn’t fit in with what I felt. Two, because of what other people have come to know through their spiritual experiences (e.g., near-death experiences). When they meet a being of light, whether this being is God, Christ or another light being, this being always radiates perfect unconditional love in a very noticeable way, with no trace of judgment. The concept of a God who sentences his children to a hellish realm for all eternity because of mistakes they made in a comparatively brief incarnation doesn’t fit in with what people experience when they meet a being of light.

Three, there is also the factor of what love-based common sense says. If a loving parent has a child who goes astray, he (or she) wouldn’t sentence this child to a hellish realm for all eternity because his loving way of being would make it impossible for him to do so. A judgmental vengeance-based approach does nothing except satisfy the mind of someone who tries to feel good about things by seeing another being suffer for all eternity (not true satisfaction). When a vengeful soul reaches the point where it has existed for just one minute and immeasurable fraction of the eternity it is destined to exist for, it will realize that it doesn’t want to spend the rest of eternity with vengeful thoughts. Instead, such a soul will want to become joyful in the knowledge that all souls eventually can find their way back to the love that God and souls who live according to love have to offer. I believe Jesus’ Prodigal Son story supports what I say.

My common sense and heart told me that if I’m wise and loving enough to not want to see any soul suffer in a hell-like realm for all eternity, then certainly God, Christ and other light beings are wise and loving enough to think and feel the same. When it comes right down to it, it was rather insulting of me to think that they don’t understand about love at least as much as I do. Below is Jesus’ Prodigal Son story. (Luke 15:11-32)

"A man had two sons. The younger son told his father, I want to share my estate now before you die. So his father agreed to divide his wealth between his sons.

A few days later this younger son packed all his belongings and moved to a distant land, and there he wasted all his money in wild living. About the time his money ran out, a great famine swept over the land, and he began to starve. He persuaded a local farmer to hire him, and the man sent him into his fields to feed the pigs. The young man became so hungry that even the pods he was feeding the pigs looked good to him. But no one gave him anything.

When he finally came to his senses, he said to himself, at home even the hired servants have food enough to spare, and here I am dying of hunger! I will go home to my father and say, “Father, I have sinned against both heaven and you, and I am no longer worthy of being called your son. Please take me on as a hired servant.”

But his father said to the servants, “Quick! Bring the finest robe in the house and put it on him. Get a ring for his finger and sandals for his feet. And kill the calf we have been fattening. We must celebrate with a feast, for this son of mine was dead and has now returned to life. He was lost, but now he is found.” So the party began.

Meanwhile, the older son was in the fields working. When he returned home, he heard music and dancing in the house, and he asked one of the servants what was going on. “Your brother is back,” he was told, “and your father has killed the fattened calf. We are celebrating because of his safe return.”

The older brother was angry and wouldn’t go in. His father came out and begged him, but he replied, “All these years I’ve slaved for you and never once refused to do a single thing you told me to. And in all that time you never gave me even one young goat for a feast with my friends. Yet when this son of yours comes back after squandering your money on prostitutes, you celebrate by killing the fattened calf!”

His father said to him, “Look, dear son, you have always stayed by me, and everything I have is yours. We had to celebrate this happy day. For your brother was dead and has come back to life! He was lost, but now he is found!”

When it comes to a Biblical perspective, people are quite mistaken if they believe it supports the eternal damnation concept. Original versions of the Bible state that souls end up in a hell-like realm for an aeon, not eternity. Aeon means age and is related to its adjective aionios, which means age long, and therefore an indefinite long period. Indefinite isn’t the same as eternal.

In the case of abiding in a lower realm,  it is a matter of how long a spirit clings to its negative ways before it chooses to move towards the light. I’ve had spiritual experiences and received spiritual messages that made the point that once a spirit in a lower realm decides to change its ways and move towards the light, nothing can stop it from doing so. In fact, many loving and wise spirits become overjoyed when a lost soul decides to change its negative ways, and they do whatever they can to help such a soul. There is so much love in heavenly realms; all a person needs to do in order to avail himself of such love is let go of the thought patterns that prevent him from doing so. For example, thought patterns that influence him to commit negative acts, or thought patterns that influence him to have an unforgiving attitude towards people who have made mistakes.






jdee190 wrote on Sep 8^th, 2011 at 1:01pm:

But what about the Christ stigmata of Padre Pio? It makes me fear that everyone will go to Hell apart from Christians

Hi,

Here's another interesting view:
/www.unexplainedstuff.com/Religious-Phenomena/Stigmata.html

Betson

In the book, The Holographic Universe, the author uses a lot of examples of stigmata as he describes how a holographic world would allow for such a thing. It was a good read.

Jdee,

Stigmata are a physical manifestation of faith and belief.  This much is sure.  I have seen accounts of other instances in which faith and belief are accessed with paranormal results.

When a hypnotist accesses the subconscious mind, he is essentially getting us in a relaxed state where whatever is put into the subconscious as a suggestion is put in a place we have the utmost conviction.  Thus, there are accounts of a hypnotist stating that he will trace the person's name with his finger on the person's forearm, and at precisely noon the patient will look down the next day and see his own name written in blood.  Yet it will not be bleeding at the end of the hypnosis session.   Patients have also had spontaneous nosebleeds under hypnosis suggested to the patient as well as uncontrollable coughing, hiccoughs, etc.   

Those examples are instances of combining a suggestion with the pure conviction of the subconscious mind.   This does not mean that the hypnotist has the power over heaven or hell.

From all we can gather on this forum and other sites devoted to the afterlife, hells are created by you, in your own mind because like attracts like.  Our post-mortem state appears to be decided not by some outside jury, but by our own inner nature.  If we live our life according to the golden rule and try to act lovingly, we find others after death who do the same.  Those who go to hellish realms do so willingly (this is the part that is difficult to understand) because they seek others who enjoy whatever they do (personal power, harming others, masochism, etc.). 

As I said in my earlier post, I would not say that any religion should have the right to fortify their faithful with true examples of the paranormal in the real world.  However you take it to a different place when you state that the miracle implies that you must conform to the rituals of that religion or be damned.


Matthew

What about Mary at Fatima when she showed terrible visions of Hell?

Another lie from the Catholic Church to control people?

Anyone?

Visions of all kinds happen. If it can be conceived of, it can be seen in the "afterlife". If you believe it you will see it because what you see is a part of you. I would put more stock in non religious people who talk of hells, but even then I chalk it up to an expectation.

I've also been shown visions of hell like realms, but I've also had spiritual experiences and received spiritual messages that made the point that spirits can leave such a realm after they decide to change their ways for the better.

There is also the matter of how some people experience such a realm after they die because they have been led to believe in such a realm and due to guilt create one. Retrievers have to help them out.

Have you read Bruce Moen's hounds of hell story (I think that' the name)? A lady who died expected the hounds of hell to get her. Bruce had a difficult time helping her out because when he approached her, due to her fear-based imagination, she experienced him as the hounds of hell and ran away.

I've read and listened to near death experiences where people experienced a hell like realm in various ways. For example, one guy experienced a vast darkness, one guy experienced a large white and completely empty room, one guy experienced himself walking into caves in this Earth and another guy experienced an astral realm where evil beings came after him. In each case, when one of these people asked for help, they received it and left the hell they experienced. No judgmental and unforgiving God greeted them after they asked for help. When it comes to the guy who walked into hell like caves within this Earth, it is hard to believe that he experienced a realm that actually exists.

Does the bible not say that only believers of Christ are saved?

The Bible is not Jesus.

Jdee:

It isn't as if the Bible was written by the hand of God and then it fell out of the sky. Its chapters were written by men and men decided which chapters became a part of the book. At some point these chapters were translated in various ways. There are different versions of the Bible and numerous Christian denominations.

When it comes to what Jesus' life was all about and what he said, things such audio recording devices didn't exist while he was alive. The story of his life and what he said was passed along by word of mouth for years before anything was written. Then the above referred to selection and translation process took place.

If a person tries to figure out what's true while being influenced by fear, there is a good chance he (or she) won't figure out what's true because fear will prevent him from doing so.  As long as we have good intentions we don't need to be afraid to consider certain possibilities simply because they differ from what a book says or how some people interpret that book.

I really find it hard to believe that God would set up a pass or fail test that requires you accept Jesus or you will end up in hell for all of eternity. Finding your way to a higher realm is more about living according to qualities such as unconditional love and humility. If you do so, then you will quite naturally be in tune with beings who do the same and will create a beautiful, wonderful and harmonious existence accordingly.

I've found that the more I've freed myself from fear-based concepts, the more I've been able to experience divine love.  There are other people who have done the same. On the other hand there are some people who are so afraid of their concepts about God and Jesus that they have a hard time opening up to unconditional divine love.

If you have a place in your heart for Christ this is fine, but fear and love do not go together. It is impossible to truly love and respect another if you believe that you better do so or else.

Does it make sense to conclude that Jesus wants people who are obedient to him because they are afraid not to be obedient to him? Only a narcissistic-power hungry person (being) would expect such obedience.

;D

He would probably thank you for that Beau.



Beau wrote on Sep 11^th, 2011 at 4:06pm:

The Bible is not Jesus.

Quote:

... only believers of Christ are saved

Does it explicitely say "only"  ? If so , where?

Its just the miracles, especially the Marian appiritions where it brought messages of be a Catholic, go to confession or go to Hell

And the eucharistic miracles just makes me fear the Catholic church is right.

If you are fearing it, Jdee, then perhaps as others have said, you should consider that first. There is no truth in an apparition saying to be Catholic or any other organized religion, in my opinion. Look at the history of the Catholic church and then decide for yourself if they are capable of lying and then how probable it is that they are. And even if it isn't the church it is still word of mouth from a group that holds the church in high esteem ...because they are afraid not to.

Alot of the stuff in the Catholic Church is good but there is alot of corruption.

I cant get over the fact that these appiritions are a message from God because normal people seen it. It also makes God look like an evil tyrant

I can only take issue with the word "fact". Even gravity is not a fact, merely a highly probable theory.

I haven't experienced stigmata,  but I've experienced divine love, and I consider this to be much more valuable. In fact, I have no interest in experiencing stigmata.

I've experienced divine love even though I'm not a Catholic. I believe that Jesus was an evolved soul when he was in this World, but not a dictator.

A true miracle would be if the Catholic church showed some unconditional love towards homosexual people and stop thinking of them as if they are sinners.

Im not homosexual, im as straight as you will get.

But the Catholic Church's rules on contraception and homosexuals is nothing short of disgraceful.

Jdee,
Speaking for myself, I would be highly skeptical of any doctrine, document or person who "makes God look like an evil tyrant". 

Thank you for your help.

What do you all make of the miracle of Lanciano? And Blessed Alexandrina who only ate Communion for years and survived?

Also if anyone could provide similar miracles of other religions it would be a great help!

Though not Catholic myself, I taught at a Catholic university in New York for 12 years and am now a United Methodist minister.   In my experience, no thinking Catholic would claim that their best miracles "prove" anything.  Most of them would claim that these miracles "support" their faith, but not in the sense of confirming their whole belief system.  One's spirituality and the power of one's faith are two different phenomena.  In my experience, some of the most gifted Christian prayer adepts are very simplistic and, on some issues, naive in their belief system.  But their intimacy with God allows them to be used spectacularly in the realm of "answered" prayer and paranormal phenomena.  What is more interesting to me is this: some Catholic saints have experienced OBEs in the  form of bilocaton is a manner better attested than most modern research in parapsychology.  As I have time, I'll illustrate this in an effort to relate this thread to the purpose of Bruce's site. 

Can anyone find any similar miracles of other religions?

Cheers

Jdee,

The following link tracks miraculous healings in the Jewish tradition.  He cites numerous examples in the old testament, and then during the period of the writing of the Talmud of miraculous healings related to prophets and holy men. 

However, in general, the idea of miraculous healing was shunned as a practice, as sort of an affront to the natural order of things.  But examples do come out in stories of holy men:

http://journals.lww.com/smajournalonline/fulltext/2007/12000/eye_on_religion__a_jewish_view_on_miracles_of.20.aspx

It is specifically stated in this well written article that the Jewish bible cautions equating holiness or spirituality with supernatural events:

"In general, however, the rabbis were cautious about such miracles. In part, this hesitancy to endorse supernatural miracles in their own time reflected concern for their own authority and worries about false prophets. Deuteronomy 13 warns that a false prophet might produce a sign that comes true but must not be followed. Supernatural occurrences were not authoritative in matters of normative practice. During a legal dispute regarding the ritual purity of a certain oven, Rabbi Eliezer proclaimed that his position would be supported by a carob tree, which moved a hundred yards; by a stream, which flowed backward; and, finally, by a Heavenly voice that supported him. Rabbi Joshua argued against him, quoting the Bible, It is not in Heaven, (Deut. 30). Following Rabbi Joshua's challenge, the legal arguments endorsed by the majority prevailed.2"


Matthew

Cheers, have you read about the miracle of Lanciano?

Matthew,

Interestingly, the Hanina ben Dosa mentioned in the article was a comtemporary of Jesus.  Hanina, too, was a faith healer and exorcist.  I think Jesus comments on him favorably without naming him in Mark 9:38-40.  The article does not mention Honi the Circle Drawer who was famous for his rain-making abilities, among other miracles, and was killed around 64 BCE.  Honi seems to have given Jesus his idea of address God as "abba," an child's intimate term for "father," in prayer. 

Very interesting Don, I was hoping you'd enter the discussion, as I remembered your scholarship in the area.  If you have the time, I do think many on this board would be interested in your description on how several saints have been noted to have OOBE.  It would be indeed a bridge between conservative religion and the New Age thought.

I am not familiar with the stories of healing miracles from many other religions, but I believe that we can find evidence of reports of healings in other religions such as Hinduism, and Buddhism.  Clearly, the faithful visit Hindu shrines, and shrines of other faiths in the hopes of these miracles occurring. 

All of it seems consistent to me in implying that it is our faith and connection to the subconscious template we all have inside that matters in terms of miraculous healings.  By coupling faith and conviction with thought, we are accessing a divine pathway.

The concept of the power of thought, oversimplified in the book The Secret, can be applied to healing through faith.  But what selfish or self-interested people don't understand is that there are consequences to actions (an equal and opposite reaction for every action - and karma is a real phenomenon).  Thus, people manage to succeed in coupling thought to intent in one area of their lives (such as earning material wealth), but fail to be happy, and may suffer (multiple divorces, estranged family members, etc.) because love is not the underlying principle behind their thought and action.

I highly recommend people joining a prayer group with others, with the sole intention of healing others in need.  I have participated in this, and do so when I can.  I have been the recipient of the healing, and had a wonderful group of people help me out at a point in my life where I was in need.  It was humbling, but also awe inspiring for me to truly see that real life situations could change for the better, by what in my opinion was the changing probabilities in the real world due to the power of thought and prayer.


Matthew

What about Lourdes, Fatima etc?

What about the miracles of Lourdes?

And the Mary appiritions at Fatima, Guadeloupe etc?

And the miracle of Blessed Alexandrina, does this not show Catholicism is the only true religion?  :(

No, it doesn't, but it does show that a belief system can be very powerful and if these manifestations actually happened then I think the occurrences are open to interpretation.

Jdee,

There are many documented miraculous healings in different cultures and religions.  The article I mentioned referenced miraculous healings
In
Judaism, yet you can find information on healing shrines of different religions all over the world.  Does that mean that Judaism or Hinuism is the only "true" religion?

My evolving understanding is that perhaps all of the world's religions have at their core some of the "universal truths" of the greater reality (i.e. nonphysical, afterlife, etc.).  But institutional religions add onto those core truths a huge amount of laws, rules, pomp, hierarchy, etc., including excluding the ordinary worshiper from direct contact with the divine/God/whatever.  But all of those religions have those who do directly experience that contact and core truth who, in so doing, manifest miracles of all sorts.  So all religions ARE and ARE NOT the one, or at least a, "true religion" if that is your criteria.

Again, I commend the writings of Frank DeMarco to all of you.  Frank continues to talk to knowledgeable entities on the other side about these and other matters.  Reading his books and blog is clarifying lots of things for me.

The ability to heal with intention is central to Buddhist teachings. All of these religions, and the New Age thinkers back to Swedenborg proclaimed as a central tenet of the Universal Law that thought is causitive...thought creates reality. So healing through prayer, or intention, or meditation is completely in accordance with this basic understanding of reality. Miracles are visible examples, but there are so many more happening all around us all the time.

But the Catholic Church has a miracle where the sun danced in the sky.

How much more of a miracle can you get?

I believe it is a mistake to conclude that because miracles occur for one denomination of a religion, this means that that denomination is the paradigm that represents the highest truth. Perhaps each demonination and each religion has miracles for the benefit of the members of each group.

If a group doesn't seek miracles as a form of affirmation, they might be less likely to occur.




jdee190 wrote on Oct 3^rd, 2011 at 4:56am:

But the Catholic Church has a miracle where the sun danced in the sky. How much more of a miracle can you get?

Quote:

But the Catholic Church has a miracle where the sun danced in the sky. How much more of a miracle can you get?

Wikipedia ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miracle_of_the_Sun ):
"Meessen observes that Sun Miracles have been witnessed in many places where religiously charged pilgrims have been encouraged to stare at the sun. He cites the apparitions at Heroldsbach, Germany (1949) as an example, where similar observations as at Fatima were witnessed by more than 10,000 people. "

So miracles do not equal truth?

There is a catholic saint who said only 3 of 60000 catholics make it to heaven. The rest go to hell.

What kind of God is that?

Maybe it's a God who thinks people carry too much luggage...  smile.....

There are Street Preachers who say virtually no gets to Heaven. Should I believe them? I think not. A saint is still a human being given to exaggeration at times.

Beau wrote on Oct 4^th, 2011 at 4:04pm:

There are Street Preachers who say virtually no gets to Heaven. Should I believe them? I think not. A saint is still a human being given to exaggeration at times.

This gave me a laugh, those street preachers are ridiculous!

Why would these things happen though if catholicism wasnt the truth?

The mary appiritions brought messages of 'only catholicism is the truth'  'pray the rosary daily'  'visions of hell'.

It frightens me alot, im going on holiday next monday and i want it cleared up!

If you believe it is the truth then the apparitions you see will most likely be telling you what you expect. I don't put much stock in a religious person telling me that their religion is the ONLY one, but someone who isn't religious at all who has an experience such as a visit from an apparition...well that I'm more inclined to listen to.

Don't take this the wrong way, JDee, but you are clearly not open to understanding that miraculous events and healings are found all over the world and in different religions (although those found in christianity are among the best documented and widely available).  Miracles and healings do not always come from without, but from within ordinary people.  It is the power of thought bound with conviction to create realities that defy the odds.  This power is within you, but only if you discover it yourself.

The idea that miracles were not synonymous with holiness was well known to Jewish rabbis.  Warnings in the old testament caution not to assume that wondrous events signal a divine origin.

I gave you a reference to various miracles cited in Judaism, and also mentioned that there are many many stories of healings and miracles found in Buddhist and Hindu shrines, with many visitors making long pilgramages, yet you seem to not understand, and keep asking the same question.

My guess is that you have been preached to, and had fear instilled in you, and that until you understand that you have your own blocks/fear to overcome and do the research yourself, you will never get the answer you seek.

I don't mean to sound harsh, but you keep writing the same question, despite very good responses.

Doc

I have not took it the wrong way Doc! It actually helped me more than any other.

I prefer the answers I recieve here, they represent God as loving and caring.

In contrast I have asked about it on religion forums and they quote Bible/Quran and give me frightening answers such as the miracles are the Antichrist trying to decieve people and God will punish them with eternal Hell.

Really, what a great God that is? And they expect me to love him? NO CHANCE.

Oh well i will try to enjoy my holiday lol

One thing I dont get about the Mary appiritions though is that in every onde she appears as a pale white northern european.

Would the actual virgin mary not have been a dark Palestinian?

Beau wrote on Oct 5^th, 2011 at 4:33pm:

If you believe it is the truth then the apparitions you see will most likely be telling you what you expect. I don't put much stock in a religious person telling me that their religion is the ONLY one, but someone who isn't religious at all who has an experience such as a visit from an apparition...well that I'm more inclined to listen to.

I understand what you mean but many of the appiritions happened to children and mary came out of nowhere.

Lourdes and Fatima happened with children and she appeared to them MANY times.

Saint Bernadette, the one who seen Mary at Lourdes, died over 100 years ago and her body is incorrupt and has not decayed one bit, surely not a coincidence?