Is there any fellow Christians on here? As I have a question.

Some Christians say there is no afterlife, and that we have to wait on the second coming to be resurrectied again.

Is this true or false?

And where would you be waiting?  And what would you be doing while you were waiting?

And who would be resurrected and as what?  All the faithful Christians added to the world's in-the-body population?  With all the then-existing in-the-body folks?  Quite a shock to all of them, I would think.  Or to replace the by then vanished in-the-body folks?  Couldn't it be awfully crowded ---or then again, maybe not.

jdee190 wrote on Jul 30^th, 2011 at 8:12pm:

Is there any fellow Christians on here? As I have a question. Some Christians say there is no afterlife, and that we have to wait on the second coming to be resurrectied again. Is this true or false?

Relax -it's false. :)

Dave.

Pat E.,

"And where would you be waiting? And what would you be doing while you were waiting?"

In the waiting room. Read magazines.

Seriously though - heart & warmth is wonderful, and so too is questioning & reasoning.

K
Pat E. wrote on Jul 31^st, 2011 at 12:56am:

And where would you be waiting?  And what would you be doing while you were waiting?

Nothing. You would not have a clue of your existance until the resurrection. It would be like a long sleep.

I think only a minority of Christians believe this. Most others believe in an immediate afterlife.

""Some Christians say there is no afterlife, and that we have to wait on the second coming to be resurrectied again.
Is this true or false? ""

I take it your question asks if the point of 'some Christians' statements is true, rather than 'is it true they said so'?
There is an Afterlife for all Life.
Evidence for this has been steadily mounting from Mystical, Mediumistic, Scientific and personal sources and of course those who work on this matter on this forum :)

BTW, if there is no death it follows there can be no 'ressurrection' magical or otherwise.
This leads to the inevitable conclusion that Christianity is false.

I am a Catholic, and it teaches we are eternal and when we die, the afterlife is immediate

And there you have it.

hi jdee when u die u go straight to heaven ,no doubt about it dianna3

  Depends on the interpretation.  If by "Christian" you mean a person who looks to the teachings and example of Yeshua/Christ as a both a compass and standard for one's spiritual path and highest ideals, then yes. 

  If you mean by following an organized belief system, outer group, church, etc. and/or having a need to label oneself this or that, then no. 

  Re: the Afterlife, it's probably best for you to have some experience with this before letting some outer belief system convince you of something.   

  These ways and methods are well taught by Bruce Moen, and easier to learn and practice than you think.  Just requires a willingness to try and be open, and practice, practice, practice.   Hemi-Sync can be helpful as well, but isn't completely necessary.

  Re: the "2nd Coming", well that's a big subject.  Yeshua didn't ever really "leave" the Earth, except for those 3 days after letting himself be murdered.   After that, he's been here constantly in seeming physical form since then and with the same body image he had when he died (left his body) for a few days.  (though it seems he has gone modern and done away with the very long hair and beard he use to have).

   So, since he didn't ever really leave, how can he come back?   Maybe meaning by going public again?   Yes, that seems to be a possibility.  But, what's interesting about this coming Age is the development that the 2nd coming might be more about a number of individuals in the near future achieving similar to Yeshua, and demonstrating similar attunement both by their loving example and interactions with others, and their complete mastery over the "rule set" of the physical.  You know, walking on water, multiplying and manifesting food, so called miraculous healings, etc. 

Eventually, in one or two thousand years from now, humanity as a whole will probably evolve to that point collectively (as Monroe and some others have been shown and talked about).  Yup, a collective species of Jesus's.  What a trip eh, but it's really what and who we are beneath all these self and collectively created distractions. 

   Maybe after two or three of these more near future folk come forward and are noticed by humanity, then he too will publicly show up again, indicating to humanity that this is truly a universal process and possibility and doesn't just apply to one special person.   Meanwhile, he is and will be working with those individuals who are fitting themselves as channels of Christ Consciousness.  Helping them, couching, counseling,  encouraging, and joking with them.

  In any case, the 2nd coming is truly about "resurrection", but not necessarily in the ways that have been taught.   If one lives pure, unconditional, universal love enough, they start to really speed up the vibratory patterns of the physical body.  At some point in this process, a zenith point occurs and there happens a conversion of the physical vibrations into purely nonphysical BUT with the now unique added benefit of full participation in the physical--meaning easily perceived by in physicals not vibrating at those super fast vibratory rates.   Seeming "physical", but not really.  Or as he said so long ago, "In the world, but not of it."

  One doesn't need to die in order to complete this process.  Jesus let himself be killed for the very specific and dramatic purpose of verifying this process for others, and to show that a Consciousness fully intune with it's Source nature transcended any physical rule sets (normal "physics" reactions etc) including the seeming need for physical transition.  Consciousness is a continuum and if you're fully intune with it, you realize your existence in all dimensions simultaneously.  The reason for staying?  Simple, effective retrieval is holistic retrieval--directly affecting others both in physical and nonphysical focuses simultaneously.  That's what it's all about for him and why he is still here. 

  I suspect eventually once enough individuals within humanity gets it's act together, many of us will exit stage left and phase out of this Universe/Multi-verse, and become co-creators of other realities. 

  As he pointed out to the Pharisees so long ago, "Know ye not, that ye are Gods in the making"

Very good and interesting posts.

I find the evidence for the resurrection to be overwhelming.

Also, the fulfillment of Old Testament prophecy further strengthens his claim to be the Son of God.

No credible historian will deny he existed, however there are 2 choices, either he was an insane liar or the Son of God.

Also we have the apostles, when Christ was crucified the apostles were scared and timid and went into hiding, however when Jesus appeared to them after he rose from the dead, they changed and spread the word only to be persecuted and 11 out of 12 died by martyrdom for the faith. Would they really suffer this for a lie?

We also have the transformation of Paul. Paul hated Christians are persecuted and killed them. But Christ appeared to him and Paul then went on to die as a martyr for Christ. What other reason would he have changed for if Jesus wasnt who he said he was?

These are facts which any historian will not deny.

  I find the whole Son of God thing to be a bit misunderstood.  Perhaps Edgar Cayce's guidance on this issue might clarify what is really meant by that term. 

  In the N.T. it's the only begotten Son of God as the term.  When someone asked E.C.'s guidance about this, it was pointed out that this term applied to those rare individuals who came into the Earth without the typical act of physical copulation.

   Jesus is not the only person in the Bible to have been born in this somewhat unusual manner.   

  Adam, Enoch, and Melchizedek seem also to share this unusual entrance into our physical world. 

  Interestingly, Cayce's guidance indicated that these other individuals were "probes" or selves of Jesus's "Disk" or Total self (his larger Soul or Consciousness essence).

  P.S. it makes it more complicated to understand there are two kinds of this non human Father conception.  One is from E.T. influence, which does not apply to Jesus's birth. 

And the other which is from Spirit or Consciousness, in this case Jesus's "Soul" or Disk self directly influencing matter with it's creative essence to spark the conception.   

  It is said to be of "God", because only a very mature (loving) and fast vibratory Consciousness can and will be allowed to do such things.

   So, in the N.T. it's talking more literally about the conception of Yeshua being from the nonphysical, Creative forces, rather than the earthly, material, typical manner.   Hence, the only begotten Son of God.   
 
  It seems that so far, it's only been other individuals connected to this same Disk/Soul, which have come in this way as well--the more pure spirit conception (the E.T. one has been a bit more common) 

  In the Cayce readings, it was indicated that one of Cayce's "past life" personalities, Ra Tah, did not have a normal conception--no human father involved, but this seems to have been one of the E.T. influenced conceptions rather than the more purely spiritual-consciousness-spirit caused kind like with Jesus.   

  In the more long term and larger perspective sense, we are all children of the Creator--meaning our original consciousness and individuality was created.  We had a "beginning".  (Source consciousness didn't really have a beginning, but always existed). 

  But again, the N.T. is more referring to the actual kind of conception of Jesus when it talks about him being the "Son of God".   It's being a bit more literal and immediate for this particular life.

   It's interesting to note that Cayce's guidance indicated that in the future, when humanity had spiritually evolved a lot more, this kind of conception (like with what happened with Jesus and his Mother) would become more common.  I suspect that this is what happens with some E.T. groups now. 

What are E.T. groups?

  E.T. groups refers to sentient, thinking, freewilled consciousnesses that have attributes of both collective and individual natures and which don't operate from within our energy system (which relates to our solar system as a physical reference point). 

There are two main types of groups.  Those Consciousnesses like us that got attracted to a particular physical system somewhere in our physical Universe, but also like us are really Consciousness using a physical vehicle of some kind to experience the physical dimension more directly.

Then the more rare type, which does not have a physical aspect or direct experience at all, was and is pure consciousness.   If we have communication with these kind, our interpreters might try to overlay some kind of form aspect to them, but there isn't necessarily any form there besides some general sense of individuality.

  Mostly when i refer to "E.T. groups", i'm referring to the former category of groups.  (they seem to be more common)

   From some experience, and from observing higher level sources out there, it seems that many E.T. groups that interact with humanity are more intune with the collective aspect of their nature.  Humans seem to be a bit unique in our intense degree of individuality and "separateness" of perception and connection between one another.

  More humorously, we might be considered an "E.T (or extra whatever planet). group" to a species which hails from a different system than we do. 

   With E.T. groups, there seems to be a wide spectrum of quality of consciousness found.   You have some groups or species which are like collective races of all Jesus types, and you have groups which are more destructive, immature, and selfish than humanity is, and MANY relatively inbetween. 

  Many of us, not all necessarily though, originally came to this system and planet from another system.   Some more because of curiosity and the lure of this somewhat unique, very discordant planet and experience, and some because of Retrieval purpose and planning.  Some involved both intentions.  Some just sort of ended up here, and it's all been a daze since.

  Occasionally, some of us will involve ourselves here for awhile, temporarily leave and experience another system, and then come back as human again for a time.  A bit rare, but not as much as one may think. (I know my "Disk" has done this at least once before, and will again in the future).

  In any case, they are just our siblings from other corners of the play pen. 

    Ones that come here more directly, whether straight from another system using whatever form vehicle they have, or incarnating for the first time as a human, tend to be more aware nonphysically than most humans.   Often times, they are also more concerned with ethics, if they come from the groups which are most spiritually mature.  (as mentioned previously, i'm aware that there is at least one group involved directly with us which has very unloving intentions towards us and we attracted by our own negativity).

  According to Bob Monroe, Bruce Moen, and many others connected to The Monroe Institute, Earth right now is the big show and channel that many E.T. groups, from both categories and from a wide spectrum of quality of consciousness, are watching intently now. 

   It's all high drama, and one universal consciousness appeal is drama.  It's kind of like a bunch of movie goers all going to see the same movie, munching on their pop-corn, watching the scenes unfold, all with different reactions, motivations, etc. 

  One motivation for watching this movie is the nature of great change and the extreme potential for consciousness growth or entropy involved.  Humans may go from a relatively slow vibratory collective state, to a rather fast and powerful one in record time.  But, it's also possible that we screw up the opportunity big time, and really degrade as to become little more than mean, semi-thinking chimps totally focused on physical and survival in same.
  Many are just curious to see how it all unfolds and how we handle the confluence of these various outside pressures and influences.

  (I originally got interested in E.T.'s and E.T. groups when i was 18 in the year 98', which was a year of a lot of change and growth for me in general, i had a dream wherein i observed a E.T. craft and to my surprise started to get telepathically communicated to by a group which felt more like a collective rather than individual oriented mind and perspective.   I was told that they were here observing and trying to help out with the changes.  After that, my interest in E.T. and related phenomenon really got piqued)

  It's nice to meet and get to know ones neighbors and be more community minded.  At least the friendly and/or neutral ones. 

Justin, you say you follow the teachings of Jesus so you must also believe that he is our Savior and died on the cross for our sins? As he said this.

Crossbow, as a Christian, do you think the afterlife will be different than what traditional Christianity envisions? After being on this website for a while I think so!

Also what do you make of the other religions who love God with all their heart but dont accept Jesus? Will they get to Heaven? I hope they do

Thank you Justin. That is quite an answer. So I guess that E.T. means something like extra terrestrial, or not-of-planet-Earth.  I don't know about all those sorts of E.T's you mentioned, but I have met a few from other planets when I have been out of body. I never thought of them as "E.T's" as such, just beings from other planets/space, because I haven't ever absorbed the term into my usage. The ones I met have been easy to spot, even from very high. I have picked one out in a large city from about 200 miles away by his different radiation and zeroed in on him for a look. He told me about his work and why he was here. He was a real phenomenon of a creature, yet not too unsimilar to humans either, and his work amazed me. He let me "come in" and see through his mind and eyes, and he showed me himself working, from the inside as he does his job. Very interesting indeed. He implied there were more of him here, doing similar jobs. I also met other types of "ET's" on other planets - I have ventured out there a few times. Some were almost formless energy creatures and were barely with it and did not have much to communicate; others were of the "big" variety, like the big spirits on Earth related to the elements. I have also met many different types of non-humans who live on Earth, like the so-called nature spirits, not just the little ones, but the powerful ones too who are spread out and in the elements, and the inbetween ones who oversee areas. And met other Earth beings/spirits too, of many sorts that I didn't imagine there could be before I met them. I am not showing off - though it might seem like it to others. Its just how it is. I live it, but I still find it hard to accept that its me. There has been a lot of work to get here but also there has been a fair amount of chance involved, like accidentally dialling the numbers correctly in combination lock. Without the chance element, I doubt I could have done it. I could write volumes on my out of body adventures. Maybe one day I will. But as much as I have seen, there is so much more that I haven't seen and I realise this because every few months I see a new amazing thing that I never imagined could be. I have seen the current Earth event that is taking place, that I assume is the one you are referring to. I have watched it from outside at a distance, and from inside views too. And yes I have noticed the foriegn/alien interest in it. It is not short in duration, but is spread out over many centuries. It is an interesting time.
For all this, I am a Christian as you know, which makes perfect sense to me. I have been since the idea came to Earth. Jdee is right when he says the afterlife is immediate. I have visted many of the afterlife places. There are too many to visit them all. But it is not for Jdee to believe me, but to look inside himself at the part of himself that is doing the looking, and believe in that, - believe in his own existence; in his own self. Are you reading this Jdee? And read your Bible with gentle and pondering mind, and loving heart, and live out its good advice, and bit by bit it will make more sense and you will come to know the truth in it. 

  Your welcome Crossbow.  Yup, that's the idea basically.  Interesting about some of your experiences.  Just with E.T. groups alone, there are so many different ones out there that it would be hard (and pointless) to count.  But, as you touched on there are also various non human and nonphysical beings not necessarily "E.T." who are also involved with the Earth directly.  Truly our Universe is a huge community of many different consciousnesses.  (when i was a child, i had the strange notion of wanting to know and to be friends with all beings and people)


Quote:

I have seen the current Earth event that is taking place, that I assume is the one you are referring to. I have watched it from outside at a distance, and from inside views too. And yes I have noticed the foriegn/alien interest in it. It is not short in duration, but is spread out over many centuries. It is an interesting time.

  Sounds like it.  Indeed an interesting time, and you're right it spans a large time frame, but it's a bit like an irregular sine wave in that there are peaks of intensity within even the general/larger cycle of intensity and great change.   We are currently in and coming to the zenith point of one of those peaks or spikes of more intensity.  Currently, it feels to be about 10 or so more years within this, in the probable sense. 


Quote:

For all this, I am a Christian as you know, which makes perfect sense to me. I have been since the idea came to Earth.

  While i don't tend to think of myself as this or that, i completely understand and agree with the sentiment.  Another self of mine was considered more of a "Gentile" during that time, met and was moved by this Teacher of teachers, and i've/we've been "hooked" since in the sense that i know and understand that he was the closest thing to a perfect spiritual pattern of livingness within the Earth. (but i've known and interacted with him many times in the Earth before he was known as "Yeshua", other lives and selves)  Truly when we saw and observed Yeshua, we saw and observed Source expression and "personality" itself in pure, undiluted form.  No other teacher before or since has expressed it so purely and powerfully. 

  Knowing what i know about him, it's natural to look to him as an example and standard to compare oneself in relation to.  It helps one to keep on a straighter and more direct path, if one can live up to it and be honest about self. 

 

jdee190 wrote on Aug 1^st, 2011 at 5:00am:

Justin, you say you follow the teachings of Jesus so you must also believe that he is our Savior and died on the cross for our sins? As he said this. Crossbow, as a Christian, do you think the afterlife will be different than what traditional Christianity envisions? After being on this website for a while I think so! Also what do you make of the other religions who love God with all their heart but dont accept Jesus? Will they get to Heaven? I hope they do

Hi Jdee190,

  I don't look at it quite in that way.  That humanity and humans err spiritually, is apparent to me.  That we needed an example of purity of love and attunement to Source Consciousness to help reorient us back to our true natures, is also apparent to me.  Before he came as Yeshua, we were starting to get very stuck and the Earth was becoming a bit of a hell like environment in many areas with all the violence and selfishness that was growing.

    He lived his life, which includes his temporary death, almost completely for others, and to provide that powerful example for all of humanity if they would but look in that direction. 

Unfortunately, many have been forced to look in that direction and that has turned them off from him, when it should have only turned them off from religion, belief systems, and man made structures and bureaucracies  built around him.  He did not create the latter, but some blame him for it unconsciously or consciously. 

  I prefer to think of Yeshua as a "Retriever" rather than a "Savior" per se.  A Retriever is more of a guide or facilitator, who points the way along the path to make it easier for others to find their way Home.   In truth, he cannot do the work for us, hence he is not so much a "Savior".   Ultimately, it's on us to get ourselves on the path and walking the long walk home. 

  It's all about how we choose to exercise our sense of choice.  When we choose to do so in more loving, wise, and creative/constructive ways, we come "closer" in a sense to saving ourselves. 

When we choose contrary to the varying degrees, we keep ourselves stuck and in a separative state of awareness, perception, experience, and consciousness. 

  Yeshua came to show and example what pure love and Godliness really looked like.  This makes it easier for us in the clarity and power of such an example.  He is also an active Guide both in the physical and nonphysical, who is always there to offer advice, suggestions, or to just share his super fast vibratory emanations with us to help uplift and expand us. 

   For example, i've found it's common within the New Age community and belief systems as well as various Religions, for various teachers and people to teach, example, and preach forms of subtle and not so subtle selfishness.  Often this is related to materialism in some form or another.  Often it is packaged in a "spiritual form".   

  Many have been mislead by these not so intune and love attuned teachers and examples.  The reality is we tend to teach, live, perceive and example what we are and there are very, very few who are even close to being attuned to PUUL consciousness like he is.

  If they looked at Yeshua's example and life, they would understand where and how they are being mislead and/or misleading.   But again, he cannot do the work for us.  He is just an extremely bright Light lighting up the path, making it potentially easier for us to walk same with some sight and direction. 

   We can become like him (a very bright Light on the path for others), if we consistently live and choose like him.  It's that simple.  He "remerged" with "God" within his consciousness and became a full Co-Creator with same.  So can we.  Many of us will at some latter time.

  (however, if he had never came or had failed in his mission, humanity would be a lot more stuck now than it is)

 

Again, very interesting read! Thank You

One reason I believe he is the Saviour is because he fulfilled Old Testamenj prophecies. It was prophesised he would be born of a virgin, born in bethlehem, perform miracles, be crucified, rise from the dead etc.

If he wasnt the Christ why would the apostles be persecuted, tortured and killed for a lie?

But has Christs message about the afterlife been mixed up? Why did he talk about people being saved through faith in him as the Lord and Saviour.

I just want all of this mess in my life cleared up, I cant move on in my life doubting and worrying about the afterlife. Once I trust Jesus exists and the afterlife exists I can move forward and enjoy my life!

Thank you Justin...your comments were greatly enlightening and clearly stated.

I consider myself one who believes the significance of the life of the Christ; his life and death and what he brought to the earth at the time he was here.  I do not, however, agree with the dogma of the christian churches.  The structure formed by them is a power base through which control over others is the primary concern...and I do not feel that is a Christ-based intention.

  Hi there again Jdee190,

    I suppose it will be actual experience which can help you most to figure out and trust the truth about Yeshua and the afterlife. 

  No one else can fully instill that trust and real knowingness in you.  Others can nudge you in the right direction etc, but not fully create that trust and knowingness. 

  I've had enough experience and guidance messages to convince me of the reality of the nonphysical, and enough of the former to convince me that some outer sources i've been drawn to, are largely correct about these as well.  The two "jibe" more than not. 

  Hi there Usetawuz,

   Thanks, i appreciate the appreciation.  I do mostly agree with you about many of the Churches and Christian religions having become largely about control (and dogma).  But, i've grown a bit more tolerant of these as time has gone by.  I figure it's been a really mixed bag for a very long time.  There's long been sincere, well meaning, and higher minded Christians involved with these, as well as the really power hungry, materialistic, egotistical types, etc, and a great range of the inbetween. 

  But, it's perhaps an interesting study in the law of like attracts and begets like to compare Yeshua to the religion and churches built up around him.   

    Cayce's guidance mentioned that contrary to popular belief there were not particularly large crowds drawn to Yeshua when he was publicly teaching and speaking.  Many did not well tolerate him. 

    Yet, contrast this with the long term and global "popularity" of Christian religions. 

  Quite a difference!  It really points out the like attracts, begets, and likes law very well. 

  Yeshua was so fast vibratory, that many shunned, disliked, etc. him when he was actually interacting with people and public.   It was because there was so much variance between his vibratory patterns and most others that there was these intense, often negative reactions to him.   If like attracts, begets, likes like, then unlike on the deeper spiritual level tends to repel and dislike unlike.  Since fast vibrations are more spiritual and loving, it's almost always the slower vibratory patterns which dislike, not tolerate well, try to get rid of, etc. the faster vibratory patterns. The ultimate in intolerance is "banishment". 

   Yet, what happens when some, much slower vibratory people get their hands on his teachings and life's history, and start to make a state religion out of it, editing, emphasizing only certain aspects while ignoring others, sometimes outright twisting..  What they essentially did was to slow down the vibrations of their new structure based only loosely on him, what he actually was, taught, exampled. 

   Then something amazing happened.  Christianity and "Jesus" became in vogue.  The why is simple, there was less variance of the vibrational patterns between the man-made thoughtform structure and the people exposed to same. 

  I doubt Yeshua's teachings and example could have survived in a more pure and undiluted way in this world, simply because there wasn't enough people around who were intune enough with his patterns.  It was almost inevitable that there would be a distortion process and effect to happen with this.  And it wouldn't really have mattered who came forth, what their names were, the same thing would have happened if they were as fast vibratory as he was.   

   I feel it's only lately, and more so in the nearish future, that more individuals in a more collective sense, will really truly begin to understand what he was really about, taught, lived.  And do so without the influence of the dogma, force feeding, control, etc of the past times and methods. 

  People like you, Crossbow, Recoverer, Bruce Moen (i don't find it an "accident" that Bruce capitalizes "Him" when speaking about Christ), i and others. 

  We should not be afraid to express our appreciation and respect for this Teacher of teachers, just because some have the bad taste of religion in their mouths and have a hard time separating the two.  The more non religious, non dogmatic people that speak up, the more people will realize that Jesus is not about religion and that one doesn't have to be religious or dogma oriented in order to appreciate and be influenced by this example and his teachings or to call on him as an active, living presence of guidance. 

  In any case, i often recommend people try to communicate directly with him or higher level guidance in general to get the facts about him and what he was and is about.  Sadly, so few seem to take up this friendly challenge to find out for themselves and rather let their intellect, emotionally based prejudice, and/or other outside sources make up their minds about him.  The last part is ironic, since so many complain about the dogma of Christian religion, but trade one dogma in for another, just someone or some outside source which is dogmatically anti-Jesus.

Jdee said:
1. "Crossbow, as a Christian, do you think the afterlife will be different than what traditional Christianity envisions? After being on this website for a while I think so!

2. Also what do you make of the other religions who love God with all their heart but dont accept Jesus? Will they get to Heaven? I hope they do"

Hello Jdee. I didn't see your post and question yesterday when I posted.

1. If the afterlife was the same in every part, then many people would not like it, because people are different and like different things, and even God can't please all the people all the time. So the afterlife has different places, like Earth has different places. Jesus said his Father's house has many mansions, and he told his disciples that he was going to prepare a place for them. And just like Earth, one can travel around and visit people in other places - with certain restrictions of course, just like Earth.

2. Everyone has an afterlife. There is an afterlife place for people of all religions and all beliefs, attitudes and preferences. I can leave the body and get about, so I have seen many places where people go when they die, and whatever religion or no religion, they are all looked after. Bare in mind that one man's heaven could be another man's hell because he would not like it. By the way, no one suffers hell forever. Hell in its truest sense is our own unhappiness that we make, and it only lasts as long as we keep making it. It will last eternally if we eternally keep doing bad things that harm others and ourselves because we will keep being regretful and causing ourself to pull our hair and gnash our teeth. Religions are progress systems for races and large groups. Each religion was designed to suite the group of people it was presented to. One religion can't suite everyone. Remember Jesus said he was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel, and also told his disciples not to waste time teaching his method to the Samaritans and Gentiles but to go to the lost sheep of Israel. This was to direct his method towards those who would best establish and benefit from it. Beliefs are the drivers of people and their societies. Each religion has a method of teaching which includes a mechanism, a set of controls, an engine, a set throttle and gearing, and a speed of progress, and is custom made for the people it is presented to. It has inner and outer parts; a front and a back; a top and bottom. But all have an afterlife because immortality is in the soul, the religion is just the learning/progress system. The religions have to clash with each other. That is expected. Like Islam clashes with Judaism and Christianity. Islam clashes with everyone because it has a scriptural and traditional commitment to war, with ongoing kill commands sprinkled through its scriptures. But even those who murder for their religion still have a place in their heaven, although other people would not enjoy their heaven and prefer to stay in their own. Religions, like motorcars, can slide sideways and run off the road at times. Arabic history and Islam is a fascinating story. If anyone can get about out of body and has the interest, I encourage them to look into its history. But this is a digression.

By the way. The reason it is said that Jesus died for our sins is because he taught forgiveness, the dissolution of sin and all that forgiveness can do, which prior to him, forgiveness was only a vague concept. His teachings were resisted and he was killed for them. Thus he died for teaching the dissolution of sins. Even as he hung dying, he continued to teach by forgiving his persecutors.
It is not so much Jesus per se who is our saviour, but rather his message of love and forgiveness (the Spirit of Christ) that is our saviour. But it doesn't matter if people confuse the message with the messenger and think it is Jesus the man who is the saviour because when they think of Jesus they think of his example of love and forgiveness and thereby take on some of that virtue and start to live it. This is why we should be careful about making a distinction between Jesus and Christ in company with Christians who do not make it or who consider Jesus the man to be the saviour, because it is unnecessary to adjust their attitude and just confusing. Read the three creeds - they are the church's doctrinal/teaching foundations - they explain the Christian concept of the Trinity and the nature of Christ on a scale from most fundamental/material to most essential/abstract/mystical but the concept is not taught like that in church services, only kept basic, because with religion and spirituality it is best to keep it simple so that everyone gets it, but give them a strong foundation and take them to the threshold where individuals can move ahead as they wish. There is more knowledge in the church than many realise. I speak in fundamental terms when ministering to fundamental Christians, and in other terms as suitable when ministering to others. I can speak as a Jew to a Jew, a Hindu to a Hindu, a Muslim as a Muslim, because I see the inside essence of the religion but I speak it according to its outside presentation or inside essence according to the person's requirement. To connect with people we need to understand them and be understood by them. 
I better sign off or I'll go all day. I hope there is some things of interest to think about Jdee.

†bow             

Thanks again!

My favourite sportsman of all time made a great quote, Muhammad Ali. He said 'Rivers, lakes, streams they all have different names but all contain water, just like religions, they all have different names but contain God and the truth'.

Ali was a boxer but was also a highly intelligent man, he also said that if you live your religion accordingly, you will see God, and there are many paths to God. A good Muslim will be close to God, a good Catholic will be close to God, a good Hindu will be close to God etc etc.

Also the evangelical Christian Billy Graham once said that we are all made together in Christ, Christ was the most wonderful gift God gave the world 5nd that all Christians, Muslims, Jews are called by God and will be in Heaven.

So why do you have doubts Jdee?

crossbow wrote on Aug 2^nd, 2011 at 5:37am:

So why do you have doubts Jdee?

I dont like to admit it, but I think the underlying problem is that I have been diagnosed with anxiety and ocd for over a year. I read things then I constantly obsess about it and worry. I read a couple of things from atheists such as Dawkins and Hawking and my worry went into overdrive.

You can identify and acknowledge the problem, so it is half defeated already. Such problems as ocd take themselves too seriously. Give it an amusing name. Learn to laugh good humorously at it, and it will wither before you. From there it will be easily managed, even ignored. 

Read up on adrenalin and cortisol, these are the so called fear and anxiety hormones/chemicals. Adrenalin is the acute one, cortisol is the milder but chronic one. They trickle out of the adrenal glands when we perceive or imagine a threat exists or is looming. Adrenalin when threat is immedieate; cortisol when the threat is percieved as looming or maybe. For practical management they can be considered much the same substance - they basically are really. The uncomfortable sensations they give you in the body's belly, throat, and elsewhere, are just physical sensations that mean your physical system is working as it should. Don't mistake these sensations for fear or anxiety as you have come to believe they are - they are not. They just mean you are ready. Do not shy away from any job or task that triggers these sensations, for doing so will train the chemicals to secrete earlier each time and your adrenal-cortisol secretion system will become hyperactive and your shying from tasks to minimise the sensations will steadily box in your life. What ever task gives you the sensations that you have assumed are anxiety/fear, providing it is a good and decent and/or ordinary task to do, ignore the sensations and march right up and do the task. With practice you will learn that these hormonal/chemical sensations are a comfort to you, not a discomfort. These sensations mean your body is well tuned and primed, and your mind is sharp, and you have much energy to use. The energy underlying these sensations is a potent driving energy that will serve you well when you have learnt to use it properly. At the moment you are shying from it because it feels what you have come to think is uncomfortable, and you are misinterpreting its promptings in the wrong direction. Remember, these hormones/chemicals are your friend; the sensations of them in your system means your body is working as it should. Learn to be comfortable with it, even thankful for it.   

Jdee,
Its good to separate your anxiety from the issue of the afterlife. That you recognize the interference that your temporary (they are temporary) disturbances of balance cause, is the first step toward getting over them. Perhaps your compulsive questioning is a form of guidance, steering you toward the information and experience you need to make your own decisions about the greater truths of life and afterlife.  The suffering caused by anxiety and OCD  can be really physical, in my opinion. The symptoms may seem to affect your emotions or your mind even, but the disorder is mostly physical and does not touch your spirit. I am sure you will find your way through this rough time, and reading and interacting with folks like those here is the best way, I think.

Hello jdee, you have lots of responses here to think about. I, personally, don't like to 'label' my person as a 'religious term of your choice' because I believe it puts my spirituality in a box. It can be a way to separate as well as to include our fellow humans. But each to his/her own.

I believe it is important to know what you value, and to place those thoughts 'ahead of you'. What I mean is, picture the outcome you find most personally fulfilling. Move toward that. Bruce Moen suggests that your approach toward 'entities' (which can be thoughts) which disturb you can be to 'see it not there'. And, sometimes we don't actually know what we would like to have in 'its' place.

But, life is your teacher. You must live it and find what suits you as best you can. You can be many people before you 'die'.

To picture yourself, as you are, in a 'heaven' may be true. But would you recognize the you that you will be 20 years from today? You might recognize that person, but consider that person very different from the 'present you'.

In any case, from all that I have read and experienced, I believe you can create a place, right now, in your mind, which would be a 'safe place' for you to go. Then, just trust that. In the afterlife, no one can take you from that safe place without your permission. Ultimately, it is about self-love. Believe in yourself, and just let the rest go, that is, until you feel strong enough inside to handle some new adventures.

Just a few thoughts. Just disregard them if they are not helpful to you. Best to you.


jdee190 wrote on Jul 30^th, 2011 at 8:12pm:

Is there any fellow Christians on here? As I have a question. Some Christians say there is no afterlife, and that we have to wait on the second coming to be resurrectied again. Is this true or false?

The Christians that do worry me are the ones who say, you need to accept Jesus or you will not be saved or get to Heaven.

Then if this worries me i also worry about there being no afterlife.

Ridiculous! One of my best friends has been brainwashed by a fundamental Christian, he now believes he has to warn people of Hell and accepting Christ.

jdee,

I was a religious studies professor for 12 years and am now a United Methodist pastor.  I just read your post.  I see that the thread has not really answered your question, yet it has led to an interesting New Age conversation.  Expand your question into all your related questions, and I will start a new thread devoted to your issues.  That way, this thread can continue in its unique direction too.

Don

jdee,

No one has the 'right' to decide whether another person is going to 'hell' if they don't 'believe' the 'right' thing. When I was 13 I was running around telling people the same thing. Did I know what I was talking about? No. I tend to think that your 'fundamentalist' (another label - this person is more than that, by a long shot) is also very fearful, or this 'choice' would not be the one which he/she is offering to others.

It's almost 'parental' to tell someone they must do or think something in particular 'or else'. So, who is trying to control who?

It's about power, jdee, and what makes people feel virtuous, or knowledgeable, or whatever.

But, eventually, it becomes clear that we are all not that different from each other. We each have beliefs. We each have fears.

And, things change. Best to you.



jdee190 wrote on Aug 2^nd, 2011 at 1:48pm:

The Christians that do worry me are the ones who say, you need to accept Jesus or you will not be saved or get to Heaven. Then if this worries me i also worry about there being no afterlife. Ridiculous! One of my best friends has been brainwashed by a fundamental Christian, he now believes he has to warn people of Hell and accepting Christ.

wrote on Aug 2^nd, 2011 at 4:51pm:

jdee, No one has the 'right' to decide whether another person is going to 'hell' if they don't 'believe' the 'right' thing. When I was 13 I was running around telling people the same thing. Did I know what I was talking about? No. I tend to think that your 'fundamentalist' (another label - this person is more than that, by a long shot) is also very fearful, or this 'choice' would not be the one which he/she is offering to others. It's almost 'parental' to tell someone they must do or think something in particular 'or else'. So, who is trying to control who? It's about power, jdee, and what makes people feel virtuous, or knowledgeable, or whatever. But, eventually, it becomes clear that we are all not that different from each other. We each have beliefs. We each have fears. And, things change. Best to you. jdee190 wrote on Aug 2nd, 2011 at 1:48pm: The Christians that do worry me are the ones who say, you need to accept Jesus or you will not be saved or get to Heaven. Then if this worries me i also worry about there being no afterlife. Ridiculous! One of my best friends has been brainwashed by a fundamental Christian, he now believes he has to warn people of Hell and accepting Christ.

You have hit the nail right on the head! My friend never used to knw all the stuff until he was brainwashed into total fear. At only 18 years old he has started smoking to control the fear and anxiety.

BTW, the reason I ended up here and also nearly to atheism was because of this guy, but I already had an underlying problem of anxiety, ocd and hypochondriasis so it hit me worse. But it also helps me identify the real problem I have and address it, but I still worry too much!

very inetresting conversation, thankyou to everybody.

Jdee, i'm not a Christian but i've just finished reading "Love Wins - a story of heaven and hell and the fate of everyone" by Pastor Rob Bell.

It was an very enlightening read and gives me hope that there are christians out there who understand Christ's real  message. (Which is the same as the Buddha and all other enlightened teachers)

Rob Bell is only the tip of the iceberg among evangelical leaders these days. Rick Warren was the keynote speaker at a recent national Muslim conference!  Even Billy Graham is widely being dismissed as a godless liberal sell-out by many Fundamantlsts. 

Jdee, from the work done by various people - Scientists, Mystics, Mediums, Seers and others who have no 'belief' axe to grind, no money to raise,  other folk to 'save' and those who have had an NDE, it can be clearly seen that there is no such event as 'death' apart from the inevitable and natural laying down of the physical body at some point in time.
Now, if there is 'no death', then it follows that there can bo no 'resurrection' - miraculous or not.

If there is no such thing as a 'resurrection', then there is nothing to base Christianity on. Indeed, Arthur Findlay called it 'The Greatest Hoax ever perpetrated upon Humankind.'

So, there is absolutely no need for your anxious worrying.
Grab Life in both hands and let your Reason guide you.

Re: death, etc.   Robert Monroe was not a "religious" man by any means, and it seems that throughout his life he kept a healthy amount of skepticism even to his own experiences and perceptions. 

   But, we find some very interesting and seemingly "fantastical" accounts in his work having to do with the ability of humans to transcend the physical rule sets that most of us think we are always and completely bound to. 

   In two different accounts, Monroe met some humans from very, very long ago in time and in another account some humans from about 1500 years or so in the future from now. 

   Both of these far past and future groups of humans seemed unusual and had a lot of commonalities in various respects.  One, they had lived for a very long time in the same physical vehicle and two they had a complete mastery over their physical environment.   They could manifest physical "objects" out of seeming nothing.  They could change weather patterns with just thought and will. They had full telepathic communicative abilities. 

But, for these purposes, the emphasis is on the very long time of having lived.  It almost reminds me of some of the OT biblical accounts of individuals and even groups of humans living a very long time without the experience of physical death. 

Then, another Monroe account relates to this issue.  Monroe asked his I/there if he could meet the most mature (spiritually/consciousness wise) human living in his time-space reference.   He was led to meet a person whom he first thought of as "He/She". 

  Among the many unusual things Monroe learned about He/She, Monroe learned through complete telepathic communication that He/She though this person utilizes a seeming physical body, has lived one very long continuous lifetime which it seems Monroe just quickly spouted out in his excitement and surprise, "1800 years".   That figure, though not fully accurate, is suspiciously close to how old one Yeshua would be if the Gospels are correct about his "Resurrection" show. 

  Indeed, Monroe hints later on in the conversation that He/She seemed to be already well known about in some way, but not being religious himself (with little tolerance for religious, dogmatic Christianity for much of his life) he projected "but no one really believes you exist."  Also mentioned that he was occidental in origin, hence not Asiatic like we might expect this person to be some exotic Tibetan Monk or some such ;)    Nope, just a simple Jew who filled himself up with love to the nth degree.  (well to be fair, Palestine sort of straddles the line between being occidental and oriental, but being primarily inhabited by peoples of caucasian descent is definitely more "occidental"). 

   Then, you have other sources which support these accounts, ones that came before Monroe and ones Monroe was not particularly interested in.   For example, Edgar Cayce's guidance said that Yeshua did "resurrect" a physical body fascimile which could interact with inphysicals in a physical like way, and yet not be bound by physical laws. 

  Then, Rosiland McKnight who was one of Bob's early explorers back in his lab, well her guidance also said that Yeshua (Jesus) could do some remarkable things and were doing these things before he was crucified.   They mention that he could so raise the vibrations of his physical body, as to dissapear from the physical perceptions of inphysicals he was near. 

  They called this moving into his spiritual body, and having mastery of the levels "below" (read slower vibratory) than the "spiritual body" (read, pure consciousness).  They also mentioned that the human belief and experience of aging was illusionary, and that if a person knew and lived reality enough, they could transcend this illusion.  Something very similar to what Cayce's guidance also said and outlined.

   Most of these sources are well respected in non religious, but nonphysically oriented circles and have verifications in connection with their info in some areas (Cayce's work A LOT).

   But, don't take their or my word for it.  Sincerely intend to hook up to the most spiritually aware, helpful, love attuned and expanded consciousnesses while feeling feelings of love and/or gratitude and ask them or your "higher self" if these are true or not. 

  I have, and have gotten answers, so i do know that these sources are not full of it when it comes to the seemingly "amazing" potential of humans who are fully matured in their consciousness.  Jesus, or Yeshua as i prefer, was just one who did this in record time, and if Cayce's work is to be considered, then it wasn't his only life of such mastery over matter and it's probable "rule sets". 

  I've also have been given various kinds of guidance that it is probable that i will do some of these things later on in this life.   This guidance has come from both within (dreams, meditation, etc), and from without (other sensitives). 

   So do i "believe" in this kind of stuff?  No, i know it's a reality, but i suppose i won't be 100 percent certain until i do some of these things myself.  But i'm about 99 percent certain now.

  It's limiting to project our dislike of dogmatic, religious Christianity onto Yeshua and put him in a box because of the former. 

  He was all about freeing us from the boxes we put ourselves in, and the main way to accomplish same is to choose love (and through experience and challenge). 

  One such box, one of the strongest and most persistant boxes out there, is the belief that a human needs to transition from the physical dimension into others.  If we truly understand that ALL of this, both physical and nonphysical is nothing more than just data and information with a seeming quality of vibration, and that all is completely connected and One, then one will understand that to phase into or be aware of any nonphysical dimension, does not require that one needs to completely "leave" this slow vibratory "physical" dimension. 

  Our bodies "die" for two main reasons.  One, we don't love and live reality enough, and two we expect to, we believe so, and so we do.    But as "He/She", Yeshua, those far past and further future humans, and others have shown or different nonphysical guidances have outlined, this isn't a necessity. 

  So, in reality, religious Christianity isn't too far off in it's claims about Jesus.  They are just off in making it seem like only he could and has done these kinds of things.  They are off in putting him on an unreachable pedestal.  And they are off in various other ways, but that's not germane to this conversation.



   

Don:

Perhaps you are alluding to how people such as Jehova Witnesses have misinterpreted some of the words in the Bible in a false way. Perhaps you can clarify about the interpretive mistakes they've made.

Certainly there are a lot of Christians who don't believe that after you die you go to sleep until Christ comes around. My Aunt was a Catholic her whole life. Some Jehova Witnesses started to visit her. She said they weren't influencing her. But then she started to speak as if you go to sleep after you die. Argh! I told her to make certain she looks for Uncle Jack (her deceased husband) after she dies. I also told her about how Jehova Witnesses have made a number of key predictions that didn't prove to be true. The Jehova Witnesses no longer visit her. :)




Berserk2 wrote on Aug 2^nd, 2011 at 3:21pm:

jdee, I was a religious studies professor for 12 years and am now a United Methodist pastor.  I just read your post.  I see that the thread has not really answered your question, yet it has led to an interesting New Age conversation.  Expand your question into all your related questions, and I will start a new thread devoted to your issues.  That way, this thread can continue in its unique direction too. Don

Crossbow, when you have these out of body experiences, can you actually visit the afterlife and see people there?

And are they definetely real and not some crazy brain trick?

Jdee asked:

1. "Crossbow, when you have these out of body experiences, can you actually visit the afterlife and see people there?"

Crossbow replies: Yes, Jdee, wasn't I clear?  ;) I have visited many afterlife places and have seen and talked with the people there.

2. "And are they definetely real and not some crazy brain trick?"

Crossbow replies: You are wise to question this. Our mind can easily play tricks on us. We can fool and delude ourselves easily. And being able to consciously leave the body can test one's mental stability. It took me many years to learn how to discern reality from falsity. I rely on a sound foundation or positioning of my awareness, along with a strict method and guidlines. Even so, I can make errors. But what I know as true and false I can only tell to others as information for them, which they do not know if it is true or false. So although I can know that an astral trip I have taken is real, I cannot prove it is real to others. The truth I know is just for me to know. No one else knows it, until they have experienced it too, but even that is not enough, for they must have also learnt to distinguish truth from falsity, which is even harder to do out-of-body than it is in-body. Such things as leaving the body require us to have stable and healthy astral bodies. The astral body is the personality body with our thoughts and feelings and it dissengages from the physical body when we leave it. We can also then dissengage from the astral body and travel in a foundational body or soul body. All this requires us to be psychologically fit and healthy - to have steady and strong self-awareness and very good mental-emotional self-control.  So do you see what must be attended to first Jdee?

†bow

crossbow wrote on Aug 4^th, 2011 at 10:13am:

Jdee asked: 1. "Crossbow, when you have these out of body experiences, can you actually visit the afterlife and see people there?" Crossbow replies: Yes, Jdee, wasn't I clear?  ;) I have visited many afterlife places and have seen and talked with the people there. 2. "And are they definetely real and not some crazy brain trick?" Crossbow replies: You are wise to question this. Our mind can easily play tricks on us. We can fool and delude ourselves easily. And being able to consciously leave the body can test one's mental stability. It took me many years to learn how to discern reality from falsity. I rely on a sound foundation or positioning of my awareness, along with a strict method and guidlines. Even so, I can make errors. But what I know as true and false I can only tell to others as information for them, which they do not know if it is true or false. So although I can know that an astral trip I have taken is real, I cannot prove it is real to others. The truth I know is just for me to know. No one else knows it, until they have experienced it too, but even that is not enough, for they must have also learnt to distinguish truth from falsity, which is even harder to do out-of-body than it is in-body. Such things as leaving the body require us to have stable and healthy astral bodies. The astral body is the personality body with our thoughts and feelings and it dissengages from the physical body when we leave it. We can also then dissengage from the astral body and travel in a foundational body or soul body. All this requires us to be psychologically fit and healthy - to have steady and strong self-awareness and very good mental-emotional self-control.  So do you see what must be attended to first Jdee? †bow

Wow thats amazing, thank you.

Learning all this stuff has helped me, and also made the appearance of my dead grandad to my gran in spirit form more believable.

I still have my doubts, scientist Carl Sagan spoke out about religion and the afterlife and called it superstition.

But how can he say this when he has never experienced anything like OBEs, NDE's etc and what he knows about theology and religion will be very very little.

However are there not great scientists who have STUDIED the afterlife and now believe in it? Rather than just make low comments from the outside.

Also Crossbow, when you said that religions are made to suit different people and the afterlife and your Heaven is what you want it to be, does that mean a Christian whos perfect afterlife would be to be in Heaven with his family, would get this afterlife and to their Heaven?

Hi Jdee,

You're doing a lot better now I see.

I can't really comment on the religious side of things but I have been lurking in the background and I have to say you have brought up an excellent topic here  :). Thanks to you, Crossbow, Justin, Recoverer for their insights, interesting stuff indeed!

Anyway, Jdee take a look at this site by Victor Zammit, it is very interesting and has science involved too. There are also a lot of references to other scientists who believe there is an afterlife.

http://www.victorzammit.com

Andy

jdee190 wrote on Aug 4^th, 2011 at 11:40am:

Also Crossbow, when you said that religions are made to suit different people and the afterlife and your Heaven is what you want it to be, does that mean a Christian whos perfect afterlife would be to be in Heaven with his family, would get this afterlife and to their Heaven?

Yes Jdee, that is correct. Everyone is catered for.

Most people spend lots of time in the afterlife, meeting up with loved ones, enjoying favourite pastimes, and learning new skills, before after a long while they might eventually feel like coming back here for some more Earth-school learning. There is plenty of time and opportunity in the afterlife to re-unite with loved ones from Earth and spend happy times together. Eventually, after a good long stay, a person might think of something more they would like to experience and learn on Earth, and if they wish they can decide to come back for another go. It is quite common for families and groups of friends to come to Earth together. Of course if they decide to come back for another go, they get a new body and new brain so they usually don't remember their previous lives and afterlives. This makes what they learn in life fresh and accurate because it is untainted by the memory of previous experiences, and they don't get distracted by the past but concentrate only on the experiences and learnings they are having in the present. Friends and families are destined to always be together, whether in this life or the afterlife, because they are bound together by love, which is stronger than magnetism, gravity, or any other force.

So don't worry Jdee - you and your loved ones will always be together.    

wrote on Aug 1^st, 2011 at 10:47am:

... Another self of mine was considered more of a "Gentile" during that time, met and was moved by this Teacher of teachers, and i've/we've been "hooked" since in the sense that i know and understand that he was the closest thing to a perfect spiritual pattern of livingness within the Earth. ...

Justin,

If you don't mind me asking; are you aware of any particulars of the life of the Gentile during that time?
Such as the personality type, social role/position, life highlights, relationship to others and to Jesus' following, ...that sort of thing?

I know these sorts of things can be obscured but I just wondered if you were aware of any particulars.

Thank you,

crossbow

Regarding Jesus, I can't say for certain, but I doubt that he ever had it in mind that people pay a lot of attention towards "him."  Rather, he was interested in sharing some knowledge.

What kind of knowledge? Mainly knowledge about the value and importance of unconditional love, that the afterlife exists, and how you live your life determines what happens when you rejoin the spirit World.

I don't believe a person needs to know about Jesus in order to obtain such knowledge.

Because I had experiences with the spirit of Jesus and and have received messages about him, I went through a period of time when I felt as if I needed to let people know about him, but I no longer believe it is necessary to do so to the same extent.  What's important is the truth that he represented.

recoverer wrote on Aug 5^th, 2011 at 2:33pm:

Regarding Jesus,...I doubt that he ever had it in mind that people pay a lot of attention towards "him."  Rather, he was interested in sharing knowledge...about the value and importance of unconditional love... I don't believe a person needs to know about Jesus in order to obtain such knowledge....What's important is the truth that he represented.

Of course he knew they would pay attention to him, even worship him, because its natural, and because many could do no other, and he made full use of them doing so, by ensuring his life was an accurate physical model and representation of his greater message. So that their worshipping "him" would ignite the virtue in them. So that those people with concrete minds who cannot grasp the concept of love and forgiveness in its abstract sense (formless & energetic sense) - for their concrete thinking can only create in thought what they can physically see and hear - can envisage and worship His person and personal life story and pray to Him the man. And because he made his life an accurate physical reflection of his message, by their focusing on their idea of "him" and his life, their minds and hearts could - via that idea - tune with and tap into the greater concept of the boundless love, which is the message he came to teach and demonstrate. The shape/form/structure of the man and his demonstrated life, when imagined, loved and worshiped, carries into the worshiper a seed of the quality of the great shapeless concept of unconditional love, which without an imagined container to give it shape and form and quality, could not be fathomed by someone unfamiliar with it. 
 
Recoverer, with due respect, you write like you think that because you have caught hold of the concept of "unconditional love" that therefore your level of understanding of the concept is all that others should need. But why do you put off those with less comprehensive ability than your own from comprehending Jesus' message in their way. Do you think that those with less ability than yourself to comprehend the wider concept should not be catered for?...their needs not met?...perhaps you don't care for them and think that if they don't get the concept then too bad for them?

So if you were in "His" sandals, how would you have taught your "unconditional love" to those who had no inkling of the concept; whose hearts had not yet known the feeling of imparting unconditional love; whose minds could not fathom formless abstract concepts but could only reproduce in thought what they had physically seen and heard; who could not fathom virtue as a shapeless force, but only as personified and demonstrated in human form and action? Or could not even fathom it in human form, but only in God form?...and not as internal God, but only as external God?  How would you have taught "unconditional love" to them?

Perhaps you would have just kept repeating the term "unconditional love" at them, and looking at them like you thought you were clever and they were silly for not understanding what the term means.

And what if by chance there were a few who were able to vaguely grasp the concept, despite you only speaking it like a parrot and not demonstrate it with your life, how would you throw those ones off? Perhaps you would then encode the concept in an acronym like PUL to make it extra tricky for them and that way you could speak about it with your friends and better keep it from those ones who might otherwise figure it out.   

Fortunately, Jesus knew how to teach masses of people. And he did not mind if they worshiped him, if that carried the message and idea of what love is into their minds and hearts. He was not so proud that he would stop people worshipping him as the embodiment of his message, as long as they got the message. He was the reverse of secretive, he taught on all communicative levels; his words, actions, and even the model of his life carried his message, so that even when people worshiped the messenger instead of the message, or confused and blended the two together, and even people who could not grasp the message at all but could only know and worship the messenger and his example, the message still got across and took seed because he built it into his person and into his example of living. 

Christ the spirit of love for Earth is happy to be communicated with directly, or via his Personification. And the Personification, Jesus, is happy for people to communicate directly to the Christ, or via Himself. Neither have hang-ups about it. Its all about what suits the individual.

But then, as the Christ said to one Christian: "Why speak to my personification when you can speak to me?"   

recoverer wrote on Aug 5^th, 2011 at 2:33pm:

Regarding Jesus, I can't say for certain, but I doubt that he ever had it in mind that people pay a lot of attention towards "him."  Rather, he was interested in sharing some knowledge. What kind of knowledge? Mainly knowledge about the value and importance of unconditional love, that the afterlife exists, and how you live your life determines what happens when you rejoin the spirit World. I don't believe a person needs to know about Jesus in order to obtain such knowledge. Because I had experiences with the spirit of Jesus and and have received messages about him, I went through a period of time when I felt as if I needed to let people know about him, but I no longer believe it is necessary to do so to the same extent.  What's important is the truth that he represented.

  Hi Recoverer,

   I sort of agree with you, and yeah ultimately it's the message which is more important than the messenger.  However, this is the only case that i'm aware of wherein the message and messenger were fully One and inseparable.  There are many out there that teach and preach spiritual messages like unconditional love, but other than him, i don't know of another who fully lives that to the nth degree, especially when it comes to love in the pure, universal, unconditional sense. 

  What you wrote reminds me of what i wrote earlier: 
Quote:

Yeshua came to show and example what pure love and Godliness really looked like.  This makes it easier for us in the clarity and power of such an example.  He is also an active Guide both in the physical and nonphysical, who is always there to offer advice, suggestions, or to just share his super fast vibratory emanations with us to help uplift and expand us.    For example, i've found it's common within the New Age community and belief systems as well as various Religions, for various teachers and people to teach, example, and preach forms of subtle and not so subtle selfishness.  Often this is related to materialism in some form or another.  Often it is packaged in a "spiritual form".      Many have been mislead by these not so intune and love attuned teachers and examples.  The reality is we tend to teach, live, perceive and example what we are and there are very, very few who are even close to being attuned to PUUL consciousness like he is.   If they looked at Yeshua's example and life, they would understand where and how they are being mislead and/or misleading.

   Having been involved in the New Age scene for awhile, and having interacted with a number of people in person, and many more on forums like these, i've learned that many people out there believe and/or have a knowingness about the importance of love. 

   As regards more "teacher" types, yet many of these i've met who teach that love is important, also live and by their example "teach" (for it's our example which is ultimately more effecting to others), subtle and not so subtle forms of selfishness.   Like i wrote in the above, often this relates to materialistic urges, tendencies, and patterns. 

  Isn't it a wonderful thing though, that we have Yeshua to look at, a person who truly regenerated all selfishness within and overcame the power of the world over his consciousness and choices?   This is a man who gave all of himself freely with no thought of material return or reward whatsoever.  This is a man who never sought to make money off his teaching and teachings (or looked for ego propping by having people become attached to him in a personality way).   He quite simply didn't care a damn about money or image and really lived that.   Many teachers i've run into however are still attached to this to various degrees depending on the individual.

   To get these parts of his teachings, we have to look more closely at him and his life, and how he led it.   Hence, people could benefit by focusing more on him.  But NOT in a personality worshiping kind of way. 

  Is it completely necessary that one becomes aware of and looks more specifically at him?  No, and people that truly go more within and contact higher levels of guidance from within, probably don't need such focus on him in the above sense.   They will be told and shown similar by their guidance eventually as they near the kind of attunement to love he was about and lived.

  However, these also i've found are somewhat rare in this world.   Many are still primarily focusing on this or that book, this or that teacher, this or that class, etc., etc.   The latter is why i somewhat often reference to outer, well known or somewhat well known sources.   I do so when their info matches up to what i've received, because i know that others will not so much listen just to me and my perceptions on things because i'm not in a position of being a teacher or some kind of well known and respected "figure" like a Monroe, Cayce, Moen, Campbell, etc.

It's about reaching people and opening up minds, it's not about self.

crossbow wrote on Aug 5^th, 2011 at 10:45am:

wrote on Aug 1st, 2011 at 10:47am:     ... Another self of mine was considered more of a "Gentile" during that time, met and was moved by this Teacher of teachers, and i've/we've been "hooked" since in the sense that i know and understand that he was the closest thing to a perfect spiritual pattern of livingness within the Earth. ... Justin, If you don't mind me asking; are you aware of any particulars of the life of the Gentile during that time? Such as the personality type, social role/position, life highlights, relationship to others and to Jesus' following, ...that sort of thing? I know these sorts of things can be obscured but I just wondered if you were aware of any particulars. Thank you, crossbow

  Hi Crossbow,

  Yes, i am aware of a number of the particulars.  I've also met a few individuals that i've received info about us being connected to each other in that life.  (these were more closely personal connections though, family, lover type).   Oddly, some of those past patterns played out eerily similar to, but reversed, in this life. 

  What about yourself?

Crossbow:

I used to work as a volunteer at a hospital. When I would visit with patients I would make a point of not trying to change anybody's spiritual beliefs. I had it in mind to simply share love.

Nevertheless, there was one man I used to visit who used to be a drug addict. He got away from his addiction mainly by becoming a Christian in a somewhat fundamentalist way.  One time he said something that was fundamentalist and didn't sound right, and despite my intent to not try to change any patient's viewpoints, I started to do so. I felt the presence of Christ on my left cheek (a warm fuzzy feeling he is able to share with me). I also got a strong feeling that I shouldn't continue saying what I was saying because Christ was taking care of this man in a way that was appropriate for him.

That said, I do understand that people have different needs. Nevertheless, the more I have grown spiritually and the more I have come closer to Christ Consciousness, the more I've realized I would never want anybody to treat me in a worshipful way. I respect their own divinity too much.

Regarding teaching people about living according to unconditional love, I'm not going to give a big lecture on how to do so everytime I mention unconditional love. I have written two books that I am very close to publishing, and within them I speak about things that have helped me grow in love.

I believe unconditional love is something each person has to tune into on an individual basis.  Once a person does he (or she) will find that it is something he needs to work on because each of us has contrary aspects of mind that make it difficult to live according to unconditional love completely. Learning to live according to unconditional love is partly what soul growth is about.

Some say that Jesus said: "Be ye perfect as your father in heaven is perfect." When he said this, I doubt that he had it in mind that such perfected people would need to worship somebody else.  Getting together in a harmonious and loving way is far beyond what takes place when worship takes place.

To sum up, I figure Jesus was wiser than I, so I doubt that he had it in mind for people to worship him. In fact, in some cases such an approach leads people in a direction that is opposite of what Jesus taught and what he was about. This is especially so when fear of God and Christ is a part of such an approach. How can you love another completely if you fear that other in some way?

I'd like to add something that sort of relates to what I just wrote.

I have three friends I discuss spiritual subjects with (we do so verbally). None of us belongs to a spiritual group so we basically state our own beliefs and understandings rather than beliefs that come from somebody else.

One key thing that enables us to communicate in a harmonious way is that none of us feels compelled to get the other person to believe as we believe.  Yet, we are open to learn from each other.

If I was a member of a church where a particular way of thinking was followed, I doubt that such purposeful and harmonious communication could take place.

I believe it is possible that Jesus did not have it in mind that people should limit themselves by attaching to a particular belief system that is defined by the person (or people) who put themselves in charge.  My guess is that Jesus' approach was more like Bruce Moen's. Bruce recommends that people find out for themselves. How often do Christian leaders recommend that people find out for themselves through their own experiences? Doing this is quite a different thing than saying verse [] says this, so don't believe differently. 

nicely said Recoverer.

Recoverer,

Re: "To sum up, I figure Jesus was wiser than I, so I doubt that he had it in mind for people to worship him."

Maybe he was wise enough to know that many would worship him, for they have little abstract conceptual ability with which to grasp his fuller and higher message,  and so he had it in mind to meet them on their level and be the same as his message, so that the effect would be the same for them, whether they worship the message or the messenger. And so the message gets across, either in abstract or concrete form, or anywhere on the spectrum in between, as suits the degree of refinement of the recipient's mind and heart.

Crossbow:

Chances are that he did understand that things might work out as they have. I figure there are many people who have benefited by what he had to say and his example, even if they interpreted some things inaccurately.

I believe that his spirit is available to help people if they want his help. He can help them to the extent they are willing to be helped.


crossbow wrote on Aug 6^th, 2011 at 10:19pm:

Recoverer, Re: "To sum up, I figure Jesus was wiser than I, so I doubt that he had it in mind for people to worship him." Maybe he was wise enough to know that many would worship him, for they have little abstract conceptual ability with which to grasp his fuller and higher message,  and so he had it in mind to meet them on their level and be the same as his message, so that the effect would be the same for them, whether they worship the message or the messenger. And so the message gets across, either in abstract or concrete form, or anywhere on the spectrum in between, as suits the degree of refinement of the recipient's mind and heart.

Thank you.


Josh Langley wrote on Aug 6^th, 2011 at 9:47pm:

nicely said Recoverer.

Justin,
Re: "What about yourself?"

Yes the patterns of old relationships repeat themselves. Hopefully each time a little improved. And sometimes with some curly twists. I find the twist and turns and ironies so amazing - how the laws of life work, how things unfold, is truly wonderful, also scary in funny sort of way. I am not looking forward to them coming around again to improve on them from this time, but they will. I have never known past lives in my other lives, only in this one, same with consciously leaving the body, as far as I remember. But there are blacked out stretches of time here and there that I don't know anything about, also blacked out portions of lives, because it wouldn't do me any good now to know about these lives. Things seem to have come together in this life to make me what I am now. I only learnt to remember other lives the last 12 or so years. Before that I could astral travel in sleep and meditation. Several years before that I had asked an escort/assistant about how to see past lives and he told me the rules/laws of remembering/knowing them. The rules put me off, so I didn't have any more interest in them, but over several years I think I subconsciously adjusted myself in line with the laws and so I started to remember. Now I can often see someone and I know their past lives and where we met last time and what our relationship is like. I see all the similarities between then and now. I used to think this was very interesting for a while but I soon learnt about the difficulties and dangers involved. So now when I sense it is there I don't "look" there, I "look away", and only concentrate on the relationship as it presents now. Only if I sense it is safe and helpful for the here and now, and after prayer for suggestions, I might have a little look, but not too much, just a peek. It can be unpleasant and troublesome to know, sometimes very emotionally wrenching.

I can remember from about 3 and half (maybe 4) thousand years ago, a stretch of lives between the rivers; then several in Greece; then more in and out of the Roman empire in Europe, with one or two back in the middle east and holy land; then back to the empire; then many European lives through dark age, medieval and renaissance times; some intense ones in Germany; many in Britain especially from 1500 to recent, on land and sea, travel, war, etc; an odd one in Spain; odd one in China; then British empire (traveling redcoat)to middle east, India, Africa; then WWI; then now, whew! I squashed a few in, but many were short - only 20 to 30 years, especially the war lives, and I came back here pretty quick - most people take more time off between lives but I have been a bit manic. But this one is exhausting, because I know so much in this one, and I have hard things to do that make me enemies, and I see consequences and feel weight, and it is lonely, and I have made mistakes on top of mistakes, whereas in the other lives I was a normal person with lesser sight and understanding. I would like a good rest now. I don't think I want to be like this again. For all its benefits I often wish I was a normal person. But I think it is only when I am tired and overwhelmed; at other times I am so thankful to God for all that has come to me. I do feel undeserving because I know some very kind people who have not done wrong by others and yet they don't have what I have - and I have been a bastard. 

And I still am. So watch out.   ;)

Crossbow,
Why do you think you chose to live so many lives here, in so short a time? It seems that many spirits choose to spend long stretches in the non-physical realms before coming back here.  It looks like you set yourself a very arduous schedule.

I don't think; I remember. It was decision, not a sudden one, but a developing one, following one decision upon another, like most paths are. I had a go at a certain group practice in the heart of Mesapotamia, it was a sort of occult magic type of thing that boosts an individual's communicating ability with his over/upper soul. This experience was a major pivotal event in my history, like turning a corner or hitting a ramp. I did it several times over several lives. There was also psychology being developed then and I studied that too. Then the abilities gained from the "practice" were put on hold while I went to Greece for several lives to learn thinking. The "practice" was still being practiced in Greece too so I indulged again, along with studying reason and logic which was what I went there for. I was there on and off over about 400?yrs. Then I got involved in early Christianity - it hadn't settle down yet and there were still esoteric type teachings involved. These teachings were all rapid learning methods for accelerating through the Earth school system, that is for gaining maximum knowledge and growth from life experiences. Its from that time that I sort of went into turbo charge. So there were three major pivotals, the Mesapotamian practice, study of Socratic type thought, and early Christian teachings. After that came lives through the last 2 millenia mostly chosen by the method of selection taught in the early esoteric Christianity. I don't feel quite right about explaining it because I haven't checked its ok. Then started pressure training/learning through lots of short intense lives. I also studied occult medieval practices/teachings. So that's it. A lot of its results, like astral travel, second sight, remembering past lives, and sensing energies, came about on me this life time, not before, unless they are in the blacked out parts and I can't see them. Its not all fun though, it has a down side - a coin has two sides, however much its worth.