1.      
2.      http://www.dpjs.co.uk/god.html
3.      
4.      God Must Be Evil
1.      The Existence of Suffering
2.      The Dominance of Death in Nature
3.      God, Free Will and Morality
4.      God Does Not Prevent Suffering
5.      What Would an Evil God Do?
1.      The Evil God Says It Loves You!
2.      Make Heaven Hard to Get To
3.      Create Conflicting Religions
4.      Causing Confusion and Hiding Itself
5.      Genetic Diseases
6.      Mark Twain's Diatribe
6.      What Would Vexen Do If He was God?
7.      Good and Evil: What if We Can't Tell the Difference?
1.      Pascal's Wager is Safer in Reverse
2.      Homocentricity / Anthropocentrism

?????????????????????????????
Alan

Well, God removed the Free Will of the Pharaoh, so God could use the poor man to keep torturing the Israels, and later drown a whole bunch of Egyptians in the Red Sea.

Hi Alan,
interesting link, which actually very succintly points up all the failings of God.
But which God are we talking about? I think the articles refer to the paranoid old git in the Bible (I the lord thy god am a jealous god, etc etc ad nauseam).
Mind you, my wife is a Quaker and a few years ago the Quaker newsletter had a strange article claiming that God is a mental construct. Make of that what you will.
Now Vexen Crabtree is obviously having a ball debunking established religion and putting the case for Satan, and if you look at it in that light (and that light alone) there's a lot to be said for his point of view in exposing the complete contradictions in the Bible. No wonder some are turning that way as they begin to wake up and refuse to accept the old b.s. from the established church.
BUT - if you look at the concept of the 'big guy/gal' that we have here that bob Monroe and others have explored then Vexen Crabtree's concepts no longer hold up.
In essence (and as I see it) that's as much of a belief system as born again Christians or fundamentalists of any religion and not what's REALLY out there.  :o >:(
Take one example: no 3, the dominance of death in nature which seems rather selective to say the least. Of course we all either believe or (for the luckier ones here) KNOW that death is not the end, so our view would be totally different and I would guess from the expanded view of the other folks here, the rest of V.C's  arguments fall down as well. ::)
It's all a question of your viewpoint and how much you can see/know compared to others.
So I can't see a large scale 'Satan revival' anytime soon!

Best wishes,

David.
:)

This discussion reflects a very simplistic premise or notion that God is much like a single man in the sky, who set out to design our earthly lives and must, by our own definition be omnipotent.  So the haters or debunkers then can rant and rave and say "look at all this misery, and see what God has wrought."

But what if - now stay with me for a moment - what if the above premise reflects a total misunderstanding of what God is and what we, ourselves are?  What if we are individual points of conscious awarenes, and God is the life force from which we spring? 

Would it not be possible to then say that the misery we see and the horrors are related to the conscious actions of billions of people, rather than to God?

Who says that God has to micromanage the outcomes?   Is it not enough that he gives us life, and is the source of love in the world?  Might he not say - "oh my child, you are on a mighty exploration of your own, as you dive into the physical world.  But I support you and will love you when you are ready to return?"

For myself, that is how I see it; that the reason people can successfully argue about an "evil" God is merely that they don't understand the relationship of human consciousness to human experience.  It is the lessons we all learn in life; the laws of karma.  Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.  Why?  Well, because what you send out to others comes back into your own experience.  These lessons are meant for people to each experience and learn.  For those who don't, there is much suffering. And there is suffering due to random energies (earthquakes, accidents, etc.)  But in many of the nonrandom events the suffering is created by them themselves; they are bound by chains of their own creation.

Judge not, less ye be judged - by youself!  This is a major afterlife lesson.  God doesn't judge you.  He doesn't micromanage your life, you are a conscious creative being and with your thought and intent, you create your own path in this world.

I gravitate toward Einstein's view of God:

"My views are near those of Spinoza; admiration for the beauty of and belief in the logical simplicity of the order and harmony which we can grasp humbly and only imperfectly.  I believe that we have to content ourselves with our imperfect knowledge and understanding and treat values and moral obligations as a purely human problem - the most important of all human problems."   

He went on to say: "I believe in Spinoza's God who reveals himself in the lawful harmony of all that exists, but not in a God who concerns himself with the fate and the doings of mankind."

Matthew

Excellent post Matthew -many thanks!

David.
:)

Perhaps each individuated unit of consciousness is responsible for the evolution of the entire system and "God" is just another name for the units as a whole and Evil is a "necessary evil" for growth within the ELS and free will choices create the training ground, Thus no man like god in the clouds just human mistakes and mother nature offering the opportunity for evolving (experiencing) and growth.

Beau wrote on Jan 26^th, 2011 at 11:07am:

Perhaps each individuated unit of consciousness is responsible for the evolution of the entire system and "God" is just another name for the units as a whole and Evil is a "necessary evil" for growth within the ELS and free will choices create the training ground, Thus no man like god in the clouds just human mistakes and mother nature offering the opportunity for evolving (experiencing) and growth.

I disagree because we are accountable for our actions done in this life when we reach the place and time of the "Life Review". There we have to revisit all our actions both are played out in full, both good and evil.

Heck Think what an entity like Hitler has had to endure, "he will objectively experience" individual; one person at a time by one person at a time, "in real time", all the terror, pain and horror that his black mind was responsible for; namely the death each of 55 million victims of his depraved philosophy and evil mind.

What I am referring to is off course the "life review" where he must have endured the very same unspeakable horror of  of the holocaust and the other 49 million other people that were murdered and perished in the horrors of the second world was, for which he was alone accountable

The is a brilliant movie called Gruesome that you guys should look at as it so accurately depicts what I am trying to convey

He was an evil calculating evil despot and in my opinion  must have accounted to a higher authority or god if you like after his cowardly suicide during the life review.

Alan

As I have said before, I think Hitler was a character as we all are. The life review is a debriefing just as an actor would need to be debriefed if they forgot they were acting and left the stage into the "real" world still believing they were the character. It doesn't make this life any less important to the characters but I think it gives more understanding of the Actor Self behind each role played here.

I wouldn't expect everyone to see it this way and I may not be explaining it in a way that makes the idea fully comprehended, but I've thought about it more than I have read about it from others.

I hope we won't be turning the thread into an Evil Hitler debate. His actions were horrendous certainly, but if I am right he was a hell of an actor in the grand scheme of things. We got to see what happens when a major world power completely tosses out the Golden Rule and we can all learn from it if we choose to do so.

Matthew, excellent post. I agree wholeheartedly. A lot of what is going on in the world, good and bad is the result of the actions of each individual point of consciousness, and at the same time, the actions of other points of consciousness towards us often teaches us new lessons or reminds us of past lessons we may have forgotten, and at the same time we usually see Karmic responses to our own actions.

DocM wrote on Jan 25^th, 2011 at 4:40pm:

This discussion reflects a very simplistic premise or notion that God is much like a single man in the sky, who set out to design our earthly lives and must, by our own definition be omnipotent.  So the haters or debunkers then can rant and rave and say "look at all this misery, and see what God has wrought." But what if - now stay with me for a moment - what if the above premise reflects a total misunderstanding of what God is and what we, ourselves are?  What if we are individual points of conscious awarenes, and God is the life force from which we spring?  Would it not be possible to then say that the misery we see and the horrors are related to the conscious actions of billions of people, rather than to God? Who says that God has to micromanage the outcomes?   Is it not enough that he gives us life, and is the source of love in the world?  Might he not say - "oh my child, you are on a mighty exploration of your own, as you dive into the physical world.  But I support you and will love you when you are ready to return?" For myself, that is how I see it; that the reason people can successfully argue about an "evil" God is merely that they don't understand the relationship of human consciousness to human experience.  It is the lessons we all learn in life; the laws of karma.  Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.  Why?  Well, because what you send out to others comes back into your own experience.  These lessons are meant for people to each experience and learn.  For those who don't, there is much suffering. And there is suffering due to random energies (earthquakes, accidents, etc.)  But in many of the nonrandom events the suffering is created by them themselves; they are bound by chains of their own creation. Judge not, less ye be judged - by youself!  This is a major afterlife lesson.  God doesn't judge you.  He doesn't micromanage your life, you are a conscious creative being and with your thought and intent, you create your own path in this world. I gravitate toward Einstein's view of God: "My views are near those of Spinoza; admiration for the beauty of and belief in the logical simplicity of the order and harmony which we can grasp humbly and only imperfectly.  I believe that we have to content ourselves with our imperfect knowledge and understanding and treat values and moral obligations as a purely human problem - the most important of all human problems."    He went on to say: "I believe in Spinoza's God who reveals himself in the lawful harmony of all that exists, but not in a God who concerns himself with the fate and the doings of mankind." Matthew

Hi All: This is a great post because it is in keeping with what Monroe and Moen discovered... that there is no absolute anthropomorphic God... there are 'gods' beings who function out of Hollow Heavens and can sometimes penetrate to the physical plane under certain conditions... such as the Mormon angel "Moroni" and power a movement... but the dead giveaway on "Moroni" as a Hollow Heaven entity is his insistence that 'Black' people are inferior... and not eligible to be priest... that women need to be herded like cattle with a male servicer... so a 'superior' man can have dozens of wivies... clearly this entity was and probably still is operating out of the 'astral mud' and has limited powers of manefestation in the physical plane... such that the power was able to sustain a movement and even generated a miracle or two to sustain their existence.

So there are hunderds or maybe thousands of... gods and demigods who manipulate the Astral Mud... you just have to know the difference.


S.

Matthew,

Just need to clarify one thing you said (in an otherwise very wonderful post). 

When you say that

"These lessons are meant for people to each experience and learn.  For those who don't, there is much suffering."

...are you referring to suffering in this physical world? or suffering in the afterlife, as a consequence of un-learned lessons?

That's the problem with being a celebrity. People make up all kinds of rumors about you. I wonder if God has a problem with Paparazzi.

Seraphis1 said: Hi All: "This is a great post because it is in keeping with what Monroe and Moen discovered... that there is no absolute anthropomorphic God..."

Recoverer responds: "They did write about a Creator who projects this universe (and I suppose, other universes). I believe Robert chose to use "Creator" rather than "God" because all of the rumors associated with God. Perhaps it is folly to underestimate the being that was able to project everything.


Whatever the nature of this being is, I thank it so much for giving me the gift of life.  Because of how inspired I feel when I make contact with divine love, I feel confident that the Creator (God) has the greater good in mind.  Therefore, I consider it a joy to be in line with what this Creator wills." 

Hi Recoverer

You said these beautiful words of truth below:_



Quote:

Whatever the nature of this being is, I thank it so much for giving me the gift of life.  Because of how inspired I feel when I make contact with divine love, I feel confident that the Creator (God) has the greater good in mind.  Therefore, I consider it a joy to be in line with what this Creator wills."

God bless you because l know that you know the real nature of our beautiful God

Alan

Hello and thank you Alan.

Hi Calypso,

What I meant was that we are bound to action and reaction (karma) until we understand our true spiritual nature, and seek to act lovingly.

The majority of unhappiness comes from people so immersed in their own ego and the physical world that they go through repeated loops of trauma, attracting negative situations into their lives again and again; making some material gains here and there but feeling that something is missing.  Being unhappy, yet not knowing why...

When we understand that we are creative beings - that thought means something - that our deepest thoughts affect probabilities and outcomes in our own lives and the lives of others, then at some point we decide we will either act and think lovingly/unselfishly or continue on the path of ego and selfishness. 

Do the vast majority of people "get it," and rise above selfish/egotistical thought and action?  Probably not.  But there is limitless time, and with each life experience we get another chance to get the message.

So yeah, if you and I examine our lives, really honestly and open up, we often can see what we attracted into our earth lives, and then (and here is the great thing) we have the option to change our thought, and change what we become.  It can happen now, while we are "alive" (incarnate) or later after our bodies fall off.  But it is up to each of us individually to decide when to evolve.

Matthew