Alan McDougall 14/7/2007

1) Verse: 2 the Lord said to Moses take vengeance on the Midianites. In direct contrast, Jesus said, forgive those who hate you and despitefully use you. It is easy to love those that love you, but I say love those that hate you. Vengeance is mine said the lord I will recompense. However, here God appears to go against his own word and commands Moses to take vengeance.

2) Verses: 3- 6 Make war and kill said the lord. This is a direct contradiction to Gods own commandment. Thou shalt not kill. Jesus said if a man strikes you on the one cheek turn and offer him the other and not to violence.

3) Verses: 6-13 here the armies of Israel go out and destroy, spoil, burn and steal and plunder on Gods command. In addition, they slaughter all the adult males however; this is not sufficient bloodletting slaughter to please Moses or God as we read from verse 14.

In contrast, Jesus said he that lives by the sword would die by the sword. The soldiers apparently somewhat kinder and merciful than Moses spared the woman and children much to Mosses disappointment and anger

4) Verse: 14 Moses was wroth (angry) with the officers. Why? Because they had not slaughtered THE WHOLE LOT, WOMAN, CHILDREN, like they had done to the adult males.

So what is sweet kind merciful Moses proposal? Verse: 15, He says now murder all the “little boys”. In ABSOLUTE contrast Jesus said blessed are the little children for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

For goodness sake is this the same merciful loving God depicted by Jesus. No this horrific story does not end yet. Moses goes on saying.” Kill all the woman” except those that have not had "sex with a man". How on earth in those remote primitive days were the soldiers to know which woman was a virgin and which were not?.

There was definitely no gynecologist way back in 300O B.C. WERE THERE? So to me they must on Moses command raped all the woman first and then murdered those who were not virgins. Why was it necessary to rape them all? Because a woman’s age does not necessarily indicate whether a woman is a virgin or not.

5) Now if any learned rational bible scholar can tell me that this is the same father God that is the same yesterday tomorrow and forever, I am all eyes and ears waiting for a logical explanation. You know if one takes out the title God and Moses and replaces them with Hitler and Rudolf Hess, no one would question that it was the work of the evil Hitler regime. Would they?

6) Alan McDougall 13/7/2007

You simply have to realise that the Bible is a total mess of mistranslation and political skullduggery. It includes polemics, direct contradictions allegory, metaphor and downright incitement as well as a clumsy attempt at mind control.
Given the (political) history of the church over the centuries maybe we should expect nothing less?

Best wishes,

David.

Also, there is a huge development between the old testament, which has a lot of "tribal history" as well as common oldtimes superstition (Jehova is often warlike and humanlike, like Zeus or Odin) and the new testament. Jesus meant to tip the Jews towards more love and tolerance. He was a love radical for his times, and even developed to a "general humanity" salvation, which was extremely radical for his times. Lastly, one just has to accept that the bible is a book that has to be interpreted in the historical context, has contradictions and is sometimes downright cruel (think of the man who throws his two daughters to the attackers to be raped and killed...and other stories like killing all the firstborn egypt children...). There are quite a few stories in the old testament, though, which are so beautiful and timeless that I am glad they are still available, Solomon`s song for example, quite a few of the psalms and the "other book of creation" which starts with "in the beginning was the word".

chrwe wrote on Jul 29^th, 2010 at 11:24am:

Also, there is a huge development between the old testament, which has a lot of "tribal history" as well as common oldtimes superstition (Jehova is often warlike and humanlike, like Zeus or Odin) and the new testament. Jesus meant to tip the Jews towards more love and tolerance. He was a love radical for his times, and even developed to a "general humanity" salvation, which was extremely radical for his times. Lastly, one just has to accept that the bible is a book that has to be interpreted in the historical context, has contradictions and is sometimes downright cruel (think of the man who throws his two daughters to the attackers to be raped and killed...and other stories like killing all the firstborn egypt children...). There are quite a few stories in the old testament, though, which are so beautiful and timeless that I am glad they are still available, Solomon`s song for example, quite a few of the psalms and the "other book of creation" which starts with "in the beginning was the word".

Yes there are beautiful scriptures in the bible, take Psalm 21 as just one example

Well gee Alan, that isn't what they showed in the movie. ;D  Perhaps Charleston Heston didn't want to look like a bad guy.

Seriously, according to the Bible, there are a lot of things God supposedly told Moses, for which it is hard to believe that a divine, wise and loving being would tell a person.

The conclusion is, no book is infallible, so when we consider what a book says, we have to learn to listen to our own experience, intelligence, common sense, conscience and heart, rather than the interpretations of somebody else. Especially if this somebody else tries to fear you into believing what they believe.

Unfortunately, some later Christians have tried to turn Jesus into a stuffed shirt.

I bet you if he was alive today and took part in conversations on this board, he would be a pretty cool guy.


chrwe wrote on Jul 29^th, 2010 at 11:24am:

Also, there is a huge development between the old testament, which has a lot of "tribal history" as well as common oldtimes superstition (Jehova is often warlike and humanlike, like Zeus or Odin) and the new testament. Jesus meant to tip the Jews towards more love and tolerance. He was a love radical for his times, and even developed to a "general humanity" salvation, which was extremely radical for his times. Lastly, one just has to accept that the bible is a book that has to be interpreted in the historical context, has contradictions and is sometimes downright cruel (think of the man who throws his two daughters to the attackers to be raped and killed...and other stories like killing all the firstborn egypt children...). There are quite a few stories in the old testament, though, which are so beautiful and timeless that I am glad they are still available, Solomon`s song for example, quite a few of the psalms and the "other book of creation" which starts with "in the beginning was the word".

Alan McDougall wrote on Jul 29^th, 2010 at 7:20am:

Alan McDougall 14/7/2007 1) Verse: 2 the Lord said to Moses take vengeance on the Midianites. In direct contrast, Jesus said, forgive those who hate you and despitefully use you. It is easy to love those that love you, but I say love those that hate you. Vengeance is mine said the lord I will recompense. However, here God appears to go against his own word and commands Moses to take vengeance. 2) Verses: 3- 6 Make war and kill said the lord. This is a direct contradiction to Gods own commandment. Thou shalt not kill. Jesus said if a man strikes you on the one cheek turn and offer him the other and not to violence. 3) Verses: 6-13 here the armies of Israel go out and destroy, spoil, burn and steal and plunder on Gods command. In addition, they slaughter all the adult males however; this is not sufficient bloodletting slaughter to please Moses or God as we read from verse 14. In contrast, Jesus said he that lives by the sword would die by the sword. The soldiers apparently somewhat kinder and merciful than Moses spared the woman and children much to Mosses disappointment and anger 4) Verse: 14 Moses was wroth (angry) with the officers. Why? Because they had not slaughtered THE WHOLE LOT, WOMAN, CHILDREN, like they had done to the adult males. So what is sweet kind merciful Moses proposal? Verse: 15, He says now murder all the “little boys”. In ABSOLUTE contrast Jesus said blessed are the little children for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. For goodness sake is this the same merciful loving God depicted by Jesus. No this horrific story does not end yet. Moses goes on saying.” Kill all the woman” except those that have not had "sex with a man". How on earth in those remote primitive days were the soldiers to know which woman was a virgin and which were not?. There was definitely no gynecologist way back in 300O B.C. WERE THERE? So to me they must on Moses command raped all the woman first and then murdered those who were not virgins. Why was it necessary to rape them all? Because a woman’s age does not necessarily indicate whether a woman is a virgin or not. 5) Now if any learned rational bible scholar can tell me that this is the same father God that is the same yesterday tomorrow and forever, I am all eyes and ears waiting for a logical explanation. You know if one takes out the title God and Moses and replaces them with Hitler and Rudolf Hess, no one would question that it was the work of the evil Hitler regime. Would they? 6) Alan McDougall 13/7/2007

Hi Alan: Unfortunately, you are judging two separate dispensations. The dispensation Moses led was for want of a better term a "Stage Two Mammalian Consciousness" phase in which the "Stage One Reptilian Brain" was being annhilated to create the condition for the Mammalian stage... many of those passages are symbolic... but, none the less this stage was necessary to burn out the old lower mind and make way for the next level of consciousness... and set the stage for the coming Jesus the Christ consciousness... the Christian dispensation does away with lower animal instincts... Jesus crucifies the animal ego... and gives birth to homo noeticus... we are in the stage now to evolve to homo spiritus... this is what Monroe's Gathering is all about... the final stage of evolution to the celestial.

S.

Alan

I noted that you dated this 2007?  Well, anyway, it is overly simplistic to believe that the Bible is merely a sacred text of a word-for-word transmission from an all powerful anthropomorphic God on a throne to his messengers and then us.  The Bible is a collection of stories and teachings designed to enlighten when their meaning is discovered.

In some ways, the "messages" from God in the Bible had to come through messengers and be interpreted for the most part.  But what message got through so to speak?  And when were we ready to hear the message about peace, love and turning the other cheek?

In the early days of Israel, with Phillistenes and war, there was an "eye for an eye" mentality to survive.  Was this truly God talking, or was it what the prophets of the time were able to hear?  Perhaps, God has always been about love, but in our infancy as a monotheistic people, we were only able to get the message about our covenant with him, along with the strategic use of war at that time.

Perhaps, God is always about love, but our notion and understanding of him evolved as we evolved.  It is just like afterlife contact, where, when you let go of limiting belief systems (such as war and violence) you are suddenly open to much more communication and understanding.

Matthew

Hi Guys,

I believe if Numbers was a true reflection of what happened then it was Moses doing his own thing and hiding his own brutality behind a supposed command of God

This has happened so much. Not too long ago there was a 20/20 show that showed Christians (supposed) standing on the street holding signs that say "God hates F.gs and Jews."


Alan McDougall wrote on Jul 29^th, 2010 at 1:44pm:

Hi Guys, I believe if Numbers was a true reflection of what happened then it was Moses doing his own thing and hiding his own brutality behind a supposed command of God

The bible, potentially a decent source of enjoyment and warmth, when lit by fire. In the age of digital pressing the delete key won't warm the bones in the same way, but a smile and a sigh of relief is nice too, knowing one cage of the spirit was finally recognized. Up, up and away, my beautiful, my beautiful balloon/disk.

I believe a key point about the Bible is that it isn't an all or nothing affair. It wasn't written by the hand of God, it was written by numerous men. Just as people can get it wrong at times today, they certainly could do the same during the days in which the Bible was written.

If one truly wants to serve divine will, the greater good, then one needs to allow one's self to question "anything," otherwise one's ability to serve will be determined by the shortcomings of others.

   Of all the unnecessary suffering that people have been through due to man made writings of what they say came from the mouth of God, I find collective punishment as the worst. Let's just have God and his henchman Moses tell the now free Hebrews to kill everyone in a city just because they are not the "Chosen Ones". That is one of the biggest reasons I gave up believing the Bible when I was still just a teenager.

   You're right Alan, the god of the Old Testament couldn't possibly be the same one that Jesus taught of, simply because that god was a man made construct for controlling the masses through fear, while Jesus's God is the real deal existing within all of us.

   I don't condemn all of the Old Testament though, as the Ten Commandments are divinely inspired as well as the Psalms and other good things in that multi authored book.

Ralph

Hi All: Just thought I'd throw this out there for interested students of history. To understand the Old and New Testament I suggest reading Zecharia Sitchin's 'Earth Chronicles' for a definitive look at where the Old Testament came from and then make conclusions about the value of it.

The past can not be evaluated in the light of present day values and experience... it won't work. Each era has to be evaluated in the context of its own unique world view.

S.

But Seph we are a reflection of the past, indeed we are their legacy!!

Blessings and light

Alan

"The bible sucks."

Alan McDougall wrote on Jul 30^th, 2010 at 4:33am:

But Seph we are a reflection of the past, indeed we are their legacy!! Blessings and light Alan

Hi Alan: I concur... we have burned through the dross and refined the truth... where we were once taught an eye for an eye in the reptilian brain... we are gradually learning to see through that illusion with homo noeticus vision and getting closer to the truth that unconditional love creates positive attraction and that the truth is one must love those who abuse you not react in kind... but that is an evolution... as long as we are in human form... the reptilian and mammalian mind will always be there... and must be recognized for what they are...

S.

Are you suggesting that an alien spoke to Moses rather than God? I haven't researched the Anuki thing, so I don't know.



Seraphis1 wrote on Jul 30^th, 2010 at 4:28am:

Hi All: Just thought I'd throw this out there for interested students of history. To understand the Old and New Testament I suggest reading Zecharia Sitchin's 'Earth Chronicles' for a definitive look at where the Old Testament came from and then make conclusions about the value of it. The past can not be evaluated in the light of present day values and experience... it won't work. Each era has to be evaluated in the context of its own unique world view. S.

Seraphis1,

"[..] one must love those who abuse you not react in kind [..]"

That's light polarity in a nutshell, and another way of explaining turning the other cheek. An updated version is pure unconditional love, though it seems to be more about saying it than actually doing it, fortunately. Take away the velvet glove of these sayings and the iron fist appears. Maybe suffering seems like a good option when blinded by light.

Have a look at the link below

http://www.creation-science-prophecy.com/michael.htm

Volu wrote on Jul 30^th, 2010 at 3:33pm:

That's light polarity in a nutshell, and another way of explaining turning the other cheek. An updated version is pure unconditional love, though it seems to be more about saying it than actually doing it, fortunately. Take away the velvet glove of these sayings and the iron fist appears. Maybe suffering seems like a good option when blinded by light.

   When it comes to PUL, turning the other cheek, etc--these are consciousnesses, activities, states of being/awareness which one cannot understand solely through the intellect and the left brain.

  It takes tuning into the "heart" or rather more accurately the Thymus gland and the right brain hemisphere in order to feel and through feeling know the truth of these. 

If a person is heavily left brain, and intellectually polarized, they tend to have a hard time with such concepts of PUL.   It won't "make sense" to them. 

  Ever notice how it seems that there is a higher percentage of women who seem to be more open to believing in PUL in a deep, consistent sense?  Ever notice how there seems to be more women who are more consciously psychically aware and sensitive than men? 

   It is because in both cases, speaking in general, women as a whole and a trend, tend to be more in touch with their feeling, "heart", and right brain natures than men as a whole. 

  While there are plenty of women with developed intellects, and in some cases even intellectually polarized women, again as a trend there is greater attunement to the feeling/right brain side of life.  Female means and is Yin and vice versa, and Yin means feeling/observing/receptive. 

  Hence, as a trend, not being so intellectually polarized as men, women tend to come to these truths sooner because they can feel them.   There is a lot to be said about so called "non rational" feeling, and feeling awareness. 

RE: so called "Light" or dark polarity.  There is no such thing as "light polarity".   

  Light is the very creative essence and foundation of creation.  It's the medium and tool that Source worked with to create all.   All was born from and exists in Light. 

Because of the endowment of freewill, there can be temporarily experienced relatively lesser degrees of Light luminosity. 

  If the Light is turned down a lot, it appears "dark" or "not light". 

  But, this is a perceptual illusion.  There is still some light there, otherwise the being would cease to exist as a conscious, sentient, freewilled being.   Light is consciousness--especially in the sense of conscious self awareness. 

  Apparently, according to Bruce and some other sources, this does occasionally happen, that a freewilled, individualized Being can so tune down within and shut off it's connections to creational Light without, as to destroy itself, though not in entirety as in a whole Disk, but as an individualized aspect of same. 

  When we work from inaccurate core premises, we come to inaccurate conclusions and beliefs of all kinds. 

  Meanwhile, with the huge majority of individualized beings, it's just a matter of lesser or greater degree of Light luminosity. 

   If we use our freewill like the man Yeshua did--only positively and for PUL, then do we become again, pure Light, like we were to begin with (or most of us).   We can so raise the slow vibratory patterns of the physical body as to completely convert it into pure Light, and exist as He does "in the world, but not OF it" anymore. 

  So, there is no such thing as Light polarity, for Light is all there is, ever was, and will ever be and relative lack of Light has no reality unto itself except in it's relative relationship to pure, Source-Creational Light.  We can only cover it over for a time, but most of us will eventually wake up to the pure Light we were birthed from and consciously existed in until we chose differently. 

  This is because when we choose less than PUL, we suffer.  The degree of suffering is proportional to the degree of lack of Light luminosity we attune to.  How can we not suffer when we choose the unreal and unreality? 

  Most credible psychical based accounts of Yeshua, report him as an incredibly joyful, happy, at peace, and humorous kind of person (consciousness).   The reason why, is simply because he was and is pragmatic, and chose to live and exist within only reality.  When he became a "Christ" in his physical life aka purely and completely attuned to the purest Light and purest expression of PUL, he transcended/regenerated self suffering.    Now the only suffering he feels is for those who still suffer and who are lost and stuck. 

recoverer wrote on Jul 30^th, 2010 at 12:16pm:

Are you suggesting that an alien spoke to Moses rather than God? I haven't researched the Anuki thing, so I don't know. Seraphis1 wrote on Jul 30th, 2010 at 4:28am: Hi All: Just thought I'd throw this out there for interested students of history. To understand the Old and New Testament I suggest reading Zecharia Sitchin's 'Earth Chronicles' for a definitive look at where the Old Testament came from and then make conclusions about the value of it. The past can not be evaluated in the light of present day values and experience... it won't work. Each era has to be evaluated in the context of its own unique world view. S.

Hi Re: watch history channel "Exodus decoded"... and you will get an interesting take on the Moses saga... I'm note making an extraterrestrial connection to moses... but I don't rule it out... something happened on Sinai that smacks of extraterrestrial involvement... I am writing a book in which I am suggesting that Moses was a diciple of Akenaton through the movement Akenaton started in 1300 bc or so in which he tried to revive the one God idea...

His city Amara was razed upon his death but, he created a movement which lives on today.

S.

Justin hi after a long absence I see, a really great post and I differ from you in only one pint, You said Jesus was a man, and I perceive him more as an incarnation of God  :) :)

Alan McDougall wrote on Aug 1^st, 2010 at 1:34am:

Justin hi after a long absence I see, a really great post and I differ from you in only one pint, You said Jesus was a man, and I perceive him more as an incarnation of God  :) :)

  Hi back friend,   

  Can't he be both at the same time?   It's interesting to note that when speaking of himself, Yeshua most referred to himself as the "son of man". 

   There are various layers to the "Jesus mystery".   I find it's more helpful to view him as a full Co-Creator from the "beginning", who in living and being like God, became completely One with God, and thus became a perfect extension or conduit of and for God.  This is what it means to be a "Co Creator" with God.

He repeated this process completion in his physical life as a physical personality born to a woman.  He was a man, who became a God by completely emptying self of all selfish and materialistic desires and becoming a pure channel and expresser of PUL.   It didn't come to him automatically with no effort or freewill choosing on his part.  There was blood, sweat, and tears involved. 

But in doing so, and completely so, he became "God conscious"-- complete Universal, conscious awareness--completely conscious of all connections between all Beings.  In making his will one with Sources Will, he became fully at one with Source.

  This is the state that many Eastern based/oriented gurus and teachers have claimed for themselves, but without the backing that He constantly lived and demonstrated in his life from his constant forgiveness and positive treatment of others under situations of extreme duress, personal danger and belittling, and personal stress, and his various "miracles" of healing and transcendence over the finite laws of matter.

  I don't want to spend too much time on this subject, as this site is not about Yeshua, but about the Afterlife and people's experiences in regards to the nonphysical.   With that said, i believe what i believe largely based on my experiences with guidance when it comes to Yeshua.

I hope that people would be open minded and hearted enough to seek direct guidance about this Jesus figure, and find out for themselves what is true or not.  I've found that it helps to specifically ask for the help and guidance of only the most spiritually loving, aware, creative, universal, and helpful sources.  Also bring up/remember feelings of love and gratitude within, and then ask one's specific questions. 

  Anyways, no more about Yeshua from me as i've spoke enough of him already here.  I will say that i believe he will make public, bodily appearances again in the same body he glorified 2 thousand years ago. 

   

I see Jesus in Proverbs Chapter 8

1 Doth not wisdom cry? and understanding put forth her voice?


2 She standeth in the top of high places, by the way in the places of the paths.


3 She crieth at the gates, at the entry of the city, at the coming in at the doors.


4 Unto you, O men, I call; and my voice is to the sons of man.


5 O ye simple, understand wisdom: and, ye fools, be ye of an understanding heart.


6 Hear; for I will speak of excellent things; and the opening of my lips shall be right things.


7 For my mouth shall speak truth; and wickedness is an abomination to my lips.


8 All the words of my mouth are in righteousness; there is nothing froward or perverse in them.


9 They are all plain to him that understandeth, and right to them that find knowledge.


10 Receive my instruction, and not silver; and knowledge rather than choice gold.


11 For wisdom is better than rubies; and all the things that may be desired are not to be compared to it.


12 I wisdom dwell with prudence, and find out knowledge of witty inventions.


13 The fear of the LORD is to hate evil: pride, and arrogancy, and the evil way, and the froward mouth, do I hate.


14 Counsel is mine, and sound wisdom: I am understanding; I have strength.


15 By me kings reign, and princes decree justice.


16 By me princes rule, and nobles, even all the judges of the earth.


17 I love them that love me; and those that seek me early shall find me.


18 Riches and honour are with me; yea, durable riches and righteousness.


19 My fruit is better than gold, yea, than fine gold; and my revenue than choice silver.


20 I lead in the way of righteousness, in the midst of the paths of judgment:


21 That I may cause those that love me to inherit substance; and I will fill their treasures.


22 The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.


23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.


24 When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water.


25 Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth:


26 While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world.


27 When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth:


28 When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep:


29 When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth:


30 Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him;


31 Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth; and my delights were with the sons of men.
32 Now therefore hearken unto me, O ye children: for blessed are they that keep my ways.


33 Hear instruction, and be wise, and refuse it not.


34 Blessed is the man that heareth me, watching daily at my gates, waiting at the posts of my doors.


35 For whoso findeth me findeth life, and shall obtain favour of the LORD.


36 But he that sinneth against me wrongeth his own soul: all they that hate me love death.



Alan