Why God doesn't work for me.

   Interesting title for a topic, no? Please allow me to explain myself in detail. It's not that I have a problem with God existing or with God being the ultimate creator. Both of those things are perfectly acceptable. It's the burden of proof. I refuse to accept anything on faith alone, because faith that something exists or will happen is basically nothing more than an oppinion. On matters of great importance, such as... if a God exists.... one should "Know" without a shadow of a doubt that a God exists. Simply saying, I believe God exists because of the bible. Or saying I believe in God because we exist are not scientific and are unacceptable as forms of proof of the existance of God.

So then you may ask: Ok... so what IS proof that God exists?
     
    Scientifically speaking, proof of anything is completely based on testable, verifiable information. So in order to make the true statement, God exists because xxxxxxx. You would need to be able to set up a lab experiment involving (for a basic example.) a bush in a pot under controlled situations and a person in devout prayer. If the bush would burst into flames, or talk, or anything happens for that matter (the bush isn't really important.) then that could be construed of as scientific proof of God's existance.

Essentially what I am getting at is this:

God has to come like thunder and lightning and speak for everyone to hear. (In fact, God will have to do this repeatedly and constantly, as new children which have never heard this proof will be naturally skeptical and will not believe without personal proof.)

God does not do this.

     We as humans are simply amazing, and most of us literally demand this proof of God. Otherwise we will never believe. I admit it is a burden (of sorts) on a creator to have to send constant scientificly verifyable data but at the same time it is a testament to humankind and it's shrewed intelligence that (many of us) demand just that.

     In conclusion, I will never simply believe in a God. I will never say, God does not exist mind you! I will simply state that God, if he does exist has done nothing to proof his existance to me in an acceptable and reproducable scientific laboratory experiment. This is not proof that he does not exist, but it does put that out as a possibility and quiestions his existance in a way that will most likely never result in an acceptable answer since God does not actively do anything to meet the requirements stated.

     Cheers friends! Please be polite in your comments and have a good one! It's my last day of the weekend and back to work I go!

Hi Jehovah,
interesting proposition.
You're correct, in this dimension and on this planet we'll probably never have scientific proof. Mind you, once you get into quantum theory things seem to change and some quantum guys are describing the quantum universe as one gigantic thought. Thought by whom?

But if God is the ultimate 'thing' (for want of a better term) then he/she is so far above the physical world dimension that he/she is unknowable for us in our present state, and to physical science.

It would be like trying to measure solar radiation with a slide rule or a vacuum tester ( whatever the correct term is for something that measures PSI  :()

Remember God is in charge of everything, taking care of concepts and dimensions that we can't even conceive of.

That's the paradox, really. This Earth Life System is so limited by comparison.....

Best wishes,
David.
:)

If you accept only cold, hard, factual proof which is repeatable under determined conditions, then agnosticism is the only option available for you in this world. You can then be either a theist agnostic (tending towards God) or an atheist agnostic. But you can never be a believer either way. Why? Because humanity still simply has a lot to discover and if anything is proven, then it is that we still know nothing. We may even be interpreting everything in the totally wrong context because there is something fundamental in the physics of this universe that we don`t know. Happens all the time with science.

The only option you have is your own experience which you can verify, which admittedly does not seem to be open to everyone, at least I did not manage. Some people here managed. I find this amazing, but of course, as long as you cant do it yourself: see above.

It is a difficult position to be in as a sentient being, no mistake.

Why did you post? Are you in pain because of your disbelief? Or do you want to be convinced? Or do you want to convince us?

Why did I post? Mainly because these are my thoughts on the subject of God. As I formed the outline of what I wanted to say in my head I had a great urge to write the words down because they seemed honest and true to me. After writing these words down I read them and I saw that it was "good" and I wished to share it.

Take that however you wish to take it.

There are several arguments against the theory that God, if she exists, should show herself in person and with fire and flood, so to say.

Firstly, if we assume for a moment that we talk about a higher intelligence that somehow busies herself with the movements and evolution of the multicosmos and if we also assume that there are more than three dimensions dancing around in this immensely complex dance of life, why, then, should this being busy herself with proving her existence to one people in this multiverse? In this, I assume btw that such a supreme being has no interest in being worshipped which happens to be what I believe.

IF such a being chose to show herself plain, with all power and splendour, so to say, no one would have free will anymore because this would coerce and make everyone follow this Beings tenets – this goes contrary to both the assumption that such a Being is loving and that such a Being has no particular lines ones must follow.

My proof exists all around me...that same proof ensures I understand that I am not separate and apart from God, that I am an infinitessimal part of the Creator and cannot conceive of the whole picture arrayed before me with the eyes I use now.

Fun pun title, jehovah  :)

To approach it from the punny angle, would you demand to buy products only from the CEOs rather than the clerks? Lots of luck   ;)

Some might say that God is busy working for the highest good and therefore may seem to not work for any individual. However many references exist to the tiers of heavenly hosts, to the heirarchy of angels. If you would practice the spiritual traditions that will revive your connection with these tiers, I betcha you will soon find proof enough.

Bets

Some folks need proof to believe, some folks don’t. What difference does it make, do we have to prove that a God is there or not, isn’t it enough to let people believe what they want to believe whether they believe there is God or not?

We have are own filters, some people have proof of their own. Is it possible that God is trying to get through to us and we just cannot sense him/her/it as we are looking from our physical narrow-minded perspective? It may also be possible that nothing is trying to get through to us.

I personally don’t have any proof, but it just makes me feel good to think something is there, whatever it is that I believe. I don’t preach this, as everyone has his or her own beliefs. No one has to prove it to anyone else only to themselves. Believe what you want to believe whether its absence of God or a presence of God, you wouldn’t be wrong or right, do what makes you feel fulfilled if you want to, and if the search and proof for God will lead you to your fulfillment then continue on your search. Maybe you are the one who will find some proof!

All the best

Violet Sky :)

chrwe, just curious why you reference God as female? I find it interesting and was just wondering. Obviously most people reference God with "He" which is quite likely due to the over all theme of men lording themselves over women so to speak.

Personally, I have called God a He, but, I think of God as an IT.

God is IT.

or

God is the artist formerly Known as God.  :D

Easy, I reference God as female not because I think God has a gender - ridiculous thought in my personal opinion - but to make it very obvious to other people that they often subconsciously attribute a gender to God and that this gender is male.

God is indeed an "It" if you want to put an attribute.

Guess I am doing that to provoke a bit :) - I also pray to the mother in heaven and enjoy the looks of the catholics - because I am so annoyed at the deep hurt and injustice that has been done to women over the last centuries because of that ridiculous idea that God is male.

chrwe,
    Na, didn't provoke me at all, but I was intrigued by it because it was very obvious you meant something by it but I didn't get it.... I like what you meant though.... I basically agree but the way I was raised I personally take God as a father/mother/parent figure and if you mean God in any way other than an omnipotent being you should NOT be using the word God in the first place....

If anyone is relating to some sort of collective consciousness I would ask that they cease and desist refferring to it as God...

From henceforth and forthwith and all that junk, let this consciousness be known as the "Lifeforce" or "Lifestream" (from Final Fantasy VII the playstation one game)
;D

chrwe wrote on Jul 26^th, 2010 at 1:26am:

because I am so annoyed at the deep hurt and injustice that has been done to women over the last centuries because of that ridiculous idea that God is male.

Only women?  Seems to me that everyone has had their turn at the wheel (protestants, saracens, boys) and the idea that God was male wasn't the only nonsensical source of stupidity.  I have never seen God as the bearded, omniscient old man, but rather a being of such immense love that we as humans cannot fathom its depth...thus my parents were asked not to take me back to Sunday school.  He/She/It/Creator...I simply prefer to cherish the idea of ultimate and absolute love, free of any and every form of categorization.   

Usetawuz,

You were kicked out of sunday school because you believed in a God of Love ?!

Well, that does it for me! I always wanted to give the benefit of a doubt to the minister that preached damnation so well to my schoolchums and me that our dread showed in photos of our Sunday school class. None of us then had the gumption to ask "But what happened to the God of Love?" 
Now I know the answer.

Thank you!
Bets

The word 'God' is what each individual person believes it to be. Unless you can prove otherwise!  ;)

VS

Yup, Bets...I was nine and we were discussing other religions and those who don't believe as we do will not be looked upon well by God.  My comment was:

"Doesn't God love all of us?"
"Yes he does." 
"Then why would he punish those who don't believe as we do?" 
"Because they have heard the truth and choose to deny Him." 
"So my neighbors who are catholic and lutheran, are in trouble with God?" 
"Yes they are." 
"Then how can he love us all but not love them just because they were raised to believe differently?"
"Because they are denying God."
"Aren't we denying their God?  What if we're the ones who are wrong...will God love us?"
"We believe the truth."
"Well I believe that God loves all of us."

At this point the class was silent, the teacher was seething and I was taken to my parents who were told I had an issue of faith and was no longer welcome in her class.  My mom, with wide eyes, asked what I had done and I said I didn't agree that God didn't love our neighbors because they had other religions.  The teacher looked at me as if I was a leper, and mom looked at her, cocked her head to say something, changed her mind and said to me, "Of course He does, dear.  Let's get your sister and go home."  The most valuable lesson I have learned with organized religion.   

I believe a good approach is to open up to divine love and inspiration as best as you can, without preconceived ideas of what you will find, and see how things work out.

This isn't an all or nothing process, it is a matter of finding a way to do so more and more. You'll  find out what God is all about when the time is right. It is a matter of being a vessel who can handle such knowledge, rather than coming to an intellectual conclusion. As usetewuz suggested with one of his posts, intellect based beliefs sometimes lead to judgmental attitudes.

If one opens up to divine inspiration, one is likely to find out that there is a level of being that is worthy of our respect, reverence, humility, gratitude, loyalty, dedication and love.

OF COURSE, fear and oppression have nothing to do with it. Just as you don't have to scare a kid into eating an ice cream cone, you don't have to scare a reasonable person into opening up to divine inspiration and fulfillment. Why would you want something that you have to be scared into accepting?

usetawuz:

It sounds more like you had an issue of having your mind controlled by others. ;) It is hard to believe that a teacher who spoke in such a way was divinely inspired.



usetawuz wrote on Jul 27^th, 2010 at 10:19am:

Yup, Bets...I was nine and we were discussing other religions and those who don't believe as we do will not be looked upon well by God.  My comment was: "Doesn't God love all of us?" "Yes he does."  "Then why would he punish those who don't believe as we do?"  "Because they have heard the truth and choose to deny Him."  "So my neighbors who are catholic and lutheran, are in trouble with God?"  "Yes they are."  "Then how can he love us all but not love them just because they were raised to believe differently?" "Because they are denying God." "Aren't we denying their God?  What if we're the ones who are wrong...will God love us?" "We believe the truth." "Well I believe that God loves all of us." At this point the class was silent, the teacher was seething and I was taken to my parents who were told I had an issue of faith and was no longer welcome in her class.  My mom, with wide eyes, asked what I had done and I said I didn't agree that God didn't love our neighbors because they had other religions.  The teacher looked at me as if I was a leper, and mom looked at her, cocked her head to say something, changed her mind and said to me, "Of course He does, dear.  Let's get your sister and go home."  The most valuable lesson I have learned with organized religion.

Ultimately it breaks up into several possibilities:

1. God, the creator, made us and is a parent like figure as typically depicted.

2. God, the creator, made us and then abandoned us for whatever reason.

3. God, the creator, does not exist.

4. Existence itself is simply existence, there is in fact no explanation for it. This will baffle the human mind to no end, yet that is the way it is.

5. We are all a part of the Never Ending story and a kid is currently hiding out upstairs in his school reading our book.

6. Death sets the spirit free from the constraints of the body and we are able to roam free in a new type of world.

7. Dead allows the spirit to join a collective consciousness, far different then the current one. You still exist but not as an individual. (sucks IMO)

I am sure I can think of even more possibilities. Obviously the grimmest ones all involve death being the ultimate ending of YOU.

Although I agree with you, rationally the end of fear itself is nothing to fear and also, that would go with option 2,3 or 4.

There are more possibilities.

1.  God is a divine essence that sentient beings can feel, but not fathom at our current state of our evolution and does not work in a way humans understand. We are part of a force being that makes an experience as a physical being and will understand this as soon as we leave the physical.

2. There is no God as "Being", but there are forces (love being the ultimate force) making up the universe, which we will re-roin in energy form after our death.

3. "God" is not busy with the fate of individual beings and existence just is a complicated computer program.

I am sure we can think of more options. Personally, I believe it is either your 4 or my 1 or 2 - everything else is not consistent with the world that I can see and with logic :).

Your option 7 does not seem very appealing to me either, but this is because of a strong ego. Maybe it will seem like everything you want in a few millenia :)?

recoverer wrote on Jul 28^th, 2010 at 2:42pm:

usetawuz: It sounds more like you had an issue of having your mind controlled by others. ;) It is hard to believe that a teacher who spoke in such a way was divinely inspired.

I don't do well with thoughtless direction...and I thought I was the one inspired!

I personally do not believe in a creator either. But it's whatever.

Jehovah...I personally like #5....in your list that is. I find it interesting.

We would be wise to remind ourselves that religion and God have nothing to do with each other  except that religion uses our belief and in some cases fear of God for monetary gain. That is the only true connection. Money,...fear = control
I have asked for anyone to give me proof of God a few times on this forum. One man, Don, attempted to proof that by some rather small coincidences that happined to people who he knows or had been told about, proved the existence of God. I guess in a way it did. At least to him anyways. It didn't prove anything to me. But then, I dont need proof. I have found God within myself and dont need to purchase him from a church or a religion.

I have a neighbor who thinks as Jehovah does.  He and I are good friends.  He is a scientist, and a devout athiest. After the dinner dishes are removed, and we all sit over our wine, I try to explain to him my feelings on this subject, and he does the same for me. After an hour or so, our wives are fed up and drag us apart. We have spirited debate over the "proof" of our soul's survival (I don't even approach the existence of a God), and we each feel pity for the other because we know the other is trapped in a belief system out of which he cannot escape.  He considers me weak for believing in something I cannot see and touch, and I consider him arrogant for presuming that what we cannot touch does not exist. I find myself plotting to retrieve him should he pass before I do, and imagine the look of chagrine on his face when he realizes the truth.  Sadly, I'm sure he is planning nothing of the sort for me.

Bardo, I just had to say that is really a cool story. I can totally relate to your scientist friend.