Hello dear ones,

tonight is a very bad night again, I woke at 4am and thought of what my neighbor - a priest who does not believe in the afterlife - said when I told him of my fears: "yes, to not be forever, that is truly terrible, the only thing you can do is not think about it". But for me, this is like trying not to think of a pink elephant that sits in the middle of the room.

I also keep thinking about the fact that so many mystics say that we are only a note in the endless music of life, the note dies but the music goes on. That we are one of the infinite, varying faces of the same endless energy that is "God" and that our person vanishes upon death, but God lives on. Very nice picture, but if you truly think about it, this means that everything that makes us "us" vanishes completely upon death, that it just means we lose consciousness one last time - forever. To me, this is so terrible that I spend this night in tears again. To lose everything that is "life", to spend eternity "not being", to lose all my loved ones because I have no awareness.

How can this be true? Why can so many people simply resign to this? Even, in the ZEN and other mystics case, revel in it? It wont help me one yota that "the music goes on" because I will not be part of it, I wont "hear" it, I won`t participate in it. It is just a prettier way to say "oblivion".

And it also does not fit with what you say about your experiences. You say we meet again with our loved ones, that we remain ourselves in a way after death, that one "Wakes up dead" so to say. I so hope this is true :(.

I really understand Jesus saying "God oh my God why did you leave me" and the prayer number 23 "out of the deep, Lord, I cry to you, please hear my voice".

I hope you don`t mind me sharing this with you :) - you all seem very sure and happy in your afterlife knowledge and at the moment, I can really use some of this surety to rub off on me.

When this first hit me, something very strange happened. After a night of fear, I was suddenly immersed in deep love for every being, every human, every thing in this universe. I was simply filled with love (and, I hope, wisdom and people came to me in the strangest places for advice and I suddenly could give answers and felt the "rightness" of them) and could share it and feel it with everyone. This was the most wonderful, greatest and best week of my life. After one week, though, the fear and dread came and pervaded everything and has stayed with me for six months now.

Hm. I feel I have been shown what heaven could be and then it was taken away again. Why? A good friend of mine who is uncannily good at predicting the future with tarot cards and is also a Reiki healer says that possibly I was so filled with positive energy that I attracted a lot of "leeches" trying to partake of this energy (it is true that I didnt have the first clue of trying to "shield" myself and I never thought of it). When I heard of the reptilian ETs, I thought of these a bit. Of course, my psychiatrists says that it was simply a sign of a sudden chemical imbalance in my brain. Sadly, though, if it is so simple, why is there no pill to repair it? The pills they have given me since might as well be sugar for all they help - I have the feeling that trying to find my spiritual way is helping much more. And talking to great people like you, even if I will most likely never meet you in person.

Or, maybe, I am meant to undergo this to find my way through this valley of darkness back to this love I was shown in this one week of PUL? For it was certainly what you call PUL that I was filled with. Is it possible to live in this state? Do you think it is arrogant to think this is a trial where I was given a glimpse of the goal as to be able not to give up? I dont want to be arrogant :).

quote:
we are one of the infinite, varying faces of the same endless energy that is "God" and that our person vanishes upon death, but God lives on

This is what I believe, but I believe it is your choice. "Death" is not as it seems. You are as free as you choose to be, depending on what attachments you are willing to release. It is my personal belief, at this point, that we live an infinite lifetime in each moment, if that is what we choose, if we can allow ourselves to attain that state of stillness. We can open ourselves to that. However, it requires us to open ourselves to the 'field of possibilities', which is so large. You have unlimited consciousness, which is eternal, in my view. However, it is expressed uniquely through your instrument, as you say. If you allow all anger and fear to drop away, the world appears very different. If you feel all your emotions, you can let them guide you toward what is important to you, and then rest there, forever. But, that is only my opinion. If there were an afterlife, and you were in it, would you know it? Would you recognize it? Would you recognize a change of scenery? What would you like it to look like? How would you like your introduction to your 'new world' to begin? Have you begun to imagine it? Have you begun to imagine all that you would do...or would you just be.....here/there?

chrwe wrote on Jul 19^th, 2010 at 11:27pm:

Hello dear ones,

Hi chrwe,

Quote:

a priest who does not believe in the afterlife - said when I told him of my fears: "yes, to not be forever, that is truly terrible, the only thing you can do is not think about it".

He's in the wrong job!  ;D Just like a vicar I once met here in the U.K. who was desperately claiming not to be spiritual. Sure the two MUST go together?
Anyway, I think on that count, you can try dismissing what he said -it doesn't add up.



Quote:

I also keep thinking about the fact that so many mystics say that we are only a note in the endless music of life, the note dies but the music goes on. That we are one of the infinite, varying faces of the same endless energy that is "God" and that our person vanishes upon death, but God lives on. Very nice picture, but if you truly think about it, this means that everything that makes us "us" vanishes completely upon death, that it just means we lose consciousness one last time - forever. To me, this is so terrible that I spend this night in tears again. To lose everything that is "life", to spend eternity "not being", to lose all my loved ones because I have no awareness.

Maybe you're misinterpreting this? A mystic might come up with the analogy to offer an alternative viewpoint to the everyday hustle and bustle, where the most important thing in the universe for you is whether you're wearing the right designer threads or if you'll get that car parking space before the other guy. Maybe showing their ideas might get you to consider that most of the ego's demands are fairly irrelevant in the scheme of things, and some things are just a lot smaller than we think.
Now that's one possible way of looking at things. However, I can see why you're getting upset at the idea that we finish existing at the end of life.
But if our note ends but the music goes on, then try this:
our note (this life) ends, but the music (we, the essential us, who existed before this life) goes on. Forever.

Everything that we are this time around and we have been we take with us on completion of this life. Everything that you have experienced in this life makes you what you are today, and all you've ever experienced in any form (whether incarnate or not) you carry with you.
You won't lose anything or anyone because you'll REGAIN awareness when you cross over and REMEMBER everything you need to. You won't not be, because that's impossible.


Quote:

How can this be true?

Please relax. it's incorrect.

Quote:

Why can so many people simply resign to this?

Quite a few folks do not want to work it out for themselves and accept what they are told by others. It's easier than taking responsibility for your beliefs. Curiously enough there are surprisingly advanced thinkers who totally lose the plot when it comes to these questions.


Quote:

And it also does not fit with what you say about your experiences. You say we meet again with our loved ones, that we remain ourselves in a way after death, that one "Wakes up dead" so to say. I so hope this is true :(.

Yes it is for us here, and for you as well. That's why we're having this conversation!


Quote:

When this first hit me, something very strange happened. After a night of fear, I was suddenly immersed in deep love for every being, every human, every thing in this universe. I was simply filled with love (and, I hope, wisdom and people came to me in the strangest places for advice and I suddenly could give answers and felt the "rightness" of them) and could share it and feel it with everyone. This was the most wonderful, greatest and best week of my life.

Did it ever occur to you that someone 'up there' (your guides, angels, whoever you conceive guidance to be) heard your cry and answered it: okay, this is what it's really about, have a little PUL and direct guidance as a foretaste of things to come?
You had a great experience -I wish I'd experienced similar (I live in hope.... ;D)


Quote:

After one week, though, the fear and dread came and pervaded everything and has stayed with me for six months now.

Okay, so you got back to your previous state of being. That doesn't mean that you have to stay there. Your PUL experience has given you something to aim for and shown you that it exists. You already have proof or the reality of it all -congratulations!!


Quote:

Or, maybe, I am meant to undergo this to find my way through this valley of darkness back to this love I was shown in this one week of PUL? For it was certainly what you call PUL that I was filled with.

I believe that's exactly what you were shown.

Quote:

Is it possible to live in this state?

Some of the folks here are living proof of it!

Quote:

Do you think it is arrogant to think this is a trial where I was given a glimpse of the goal as to be able not to give up? I dont want to be arrogant :).

The fact you're asking these questions proves that you're not arrogant.
We're all here progressing the best way we know..
Maybe you're feeling a little better about this?

Hope this all helps,
Very best wishes,
David. :)

David, remember when you were going through your own 'dark night of the soul' a while back when it was suggested that in the future you would be the inspiration .... the future's now.

heisenberg69 wrote on Jul 20^th, 2010 at 8:45am:

David, remember when you were going through your own 'dark night of the soul' a while back when it was suggested that in the future you would be the inspiration .... the future's now.

Gulp

gosh, wot, me?  :D

chrwe,

Regarding your priest who believes in no afterlife,  I would limit my faith in his ability to guide me or to provide helpful counsel.  On that note, if what he says does not feel right, is his opinion, or simply is his way of living his life, why feel any obligation to take on his beliefs?  Because he believes them doesn't make them right...we each have our own unique view of the world, and what works best for you...what feels right for you is what you should be focused on.  What is in your heart?  Is it hopelessness and nothing upon death?  I'll bet not.  Don't "hope" that isn't the case...listen to your heart...what does it tell you?  What feels right?  What makes your soul sing, your spirit soar...follow that line of thought as far as the eye can see, and don't let anything that doesn't feel right and good get a foothold in your world. 

Your week of PUL sounded like a preview of what life can be...I had one for a day and it has been my goal now for months to attain that feeling continuously.  I am not sure I would consider those drawn to you while in your PUL week as leeches...more like souls drawn to your light, people feeling your vibration and responding to it...they're only leeches if they're reaching into your handbag while basking in your glow!

I know you understand the only proof of the afterlife we may derive during our current sojourn is found within us...it also seems that you are not giving yourself, your own inner understanding of who you are and how you feel, enough credit.  Try giving your thoughts, feelings and impressions star billing in this play of your life, and let all the other negatives...hopelessness, nothingness, etc. from whatever other source they derive, play their role as extras...you needn't let them share your stage.  Focus on that "rightness"...not for others but for yourself.

I hope this helps...

'gosh, wot, me?'

Why not (!) , there's nothing as inspirational as someone who's been there and come out the other side to let others know there is another side ...  :)

chrwe:

I'm not certain what mystics you are talking about, but I used to be into Eastern Guru based teachings (Zen is an example), and I found that supposed enlightened master after supposed enlightened master isn't the enlightened master he or she claims to be. I don't believe a person can know the truth of what I just said if he (or she) hasn't seen what the guru thing is about or if his mind is currently controlled by a guru.

Some people on this forum have gotten on my case for speaking against such supposed masters, they ask what's the harm with what they teach, you just provided an example of where the harm is.

Many of these gurus are nihilists. They deny the eternal nature of the soul. They don't know what they are talking about.

They try to claim that they lost their ego, they have no sense of I, yet they allow other people to treat them as if they are special beings who should be put on a pedestal.

It's a con gain ran mostly by narcissistic people who get off on controlling and manipulating other people, and being put on a pedestal. Their supposedly sophisticated dialougue can be seen through if one allows one's self to do so, but often people don't, because they wonder how could they possibly question the wisdom of an enlightened one.

If a person claims to be enlightened, seriously consider what he or she is actually about.

I believe that eventually we do become one with God and the great oneness, but this doesn't mean that our souls become nothing. It'll be like one big happy, wise and loving family. :)

P.S. Buddhism is a belief system that exists in different ways. Quite often Buddhism is quite dogmatic. It can limit a person just as any belief system can do so.

If it is okay to speak against Christianity, then perhaps it is okay to speak against Buddhism. One system says this book can't be questioned, another says the Buddha can't be questioned.

I just read Usetewuz's post. I agree. Find your own way, forget what the supposed I'll tell you what to believe masters have to say.

Hey chrwe,

"I hope you don`t mind me sharing this with you :) - you all seem very sure and happy in your afterlife knowledge and at the moment, I can really use some of this surety to rub off on me."

It's a fear you're honest with yourself about, not suppressing it, so the first step is already taken. I don't think there's a single answer to how to do stuff. I do think there's one for you, but that you have to find out. Not the answer I wanted when I asked a similar question to someone, "please, help me!". But boy did it turn out to be true, for me at least. Maybe you've got a different answer? PERHAPS the power to fix this isn't something you'll have to search high and low for in other people, but something you've already have got within you, though not seeing it yet because you're looking elsewhere? When in fear or doubt I've found it helpful to do something enjoyable to open the heart again and lift the mood/spirit out of the pain, whatever non-destructive thing that is to someone. You know what that is, I sure don't. :)

"A good friend of mine who is uncannily good at predicting the future with tarot cards and is also a Reiki healer says that possibly I was so filled with positive energy that I attracted a lot of "leeches" trying to partake of this energy (it is true that I didnt have the first clue of trying to "shield" myself and I never thought of it). When I heard of the reptilian ETs, I thought of these a bit."

If something you've heard about but don't know about through your own experience, maybe it's better to let it be than to assume, worry and ponder eventualities that end up being your own thoughts out to get you.

Life's too short to have long hair when one's bald, also doesn't help to worry about worries that aren't really yours.

You all help me immensly. You really do. Thank you!

chrwe,

That's the great part about being here. It's a Choose Your Own Adventure series. You can choose to believe only in the traditional medical fields beliefs, ie. it's all due to a chemical imbalance that cause us to hear voices :-[, see the visions :o, be too happy ;D, be to sad :'(, or fearful :(.

Or you can choose the psychiatric fields beliefs which tries to be a part of the medical field but adds the emotional background to the biological beliefs and instructs you to just distract yourself from the voices, inspirations, sad feelings, happy feelings, or fear along with a few psychotropics. 

You can choose traditional religious paths the requires blind faith in individuals that lived in the past when experiencing voices, visions, inspirations, strong emotions, fear, etc..

Or you can choose to not believe in anything except cynicism, skepticism, being a constant doubter as oppose to being a critical thinker, or generally being a hard to pin down waffler that actually doesn't choose anything due to ego issues and again fear.

Most of us tend to choose a mixture of all of these due to believing there are no alternatives and that we must choose something at all costs, right now, or (1) we look stupid, (2) we feel afraid (3) we look more stupid (4) we get more afraid and/or we're confussed.

IMO the alternative to choosing the above positions for this Grand Adventure seems to come from individuals that provide tools to learn, on our own, what this life experience is all about rather than telling us which adventure to choose. Sort of like teaching how to grow the food rather than giving a free handout. And from those that encourage us to form our own conclusions since there is such a huge amount of data out there and at our fingertips. Most of us no longer live in the little village with no running water or telephone (Remember some still lack these amenities and therefore might be very prone to choosing radical beliefs for relief of fear).

Then follow up these exercises up by living your life, valuing your experiences, appreciating those around that are actually as clueless as you are (in fact I suspect that those that seem to have it the most together-you guessed it-are most likely to be even more clueless or afraid than you are), trusting your instincts, and generally being curious, and kind. 

Getting back to basics now that many of us have the ability to research, eat regularly, read, use the Internet, skype, etc. use our own minds to follow our inclinations, sounds good enough for me. Using the techniques developed by TMI and expanded on by Bruce as well as many I meet on this board have been a real bonus in my ability to follow my heart in this ever expanding adventure.

Thanks for the thread and chance to clarify :D.

Jean

Was your week of PUL the psychiatrist's symptom of a chemical imbalance, or the reversion to despair?   If the former, I'd want whatever drugs could sustain that feeling!  My day of PUL was the most amazing thing I have experienced...and you got a week!  Also, mine was not the result of any drugs other than the cooling effect of a gin and tonic before dinner.

Interestingly, the only conversation I've had with a psychiatrist resulted in him recommending I talk to a psychic!  He called them "vibe-meisters".  I am not sure if he was serious, but he sure didn't have anything else to help me figure out what had happened...and the psychics could see it all...sometimes adding what I had omitted.

We are eternal, it matters not what someone believes. For belief is just programing and that programing is what each soul's here to overcome and grow through.

I can tell you from one hundred and ten percent knowledge! You will exist for eons of time, your soul never dies. The only time that may happen is when and if you choose to rejoin, re-merge with the God light force. And that will come when you've achieved all the god light force wills and deemed for you to achieve.

What you experienced was your higher self merging with you. It was showing you who you really are, its your job to learn how to control your mind. Fear is all around us, its the vibration we exist in, but as your higher self was showing you, love can overcome this vibration. Learn to mediate focusing on the love you have within your very own being and use this love to shield and control your fear.  Live your life with strength and love. For once you find real love within your heart all questions will be answered, you'll know longer feel fear of death you will rejoice at the thought of going home.;

Hi dear ones,

haha, no, there is no drug that can repeat this wonderful week of PUL and wisdom. If there were, I would be very tempted indeed. There are drugs that can make you happy and relaxed, but they come with definite side-effects and there are drugs that can make you an un-emotional zombie (removing all emotions, positive and negative). I have experienced both myself. And no, I am not crazy, I have a very bad spiritual crisis and this is how our modern world deals with it. I must say, I am shocked - practically no one accepts that you can have a true SPIRITUAL crisis, they all claim I must have something else.

Psychiatrists can not help you with something like this, btw, take it from me. For me, a psychologist (an older women, very spiritual herself), you people and the love of my family is what is helping me slowly.

As for "choosing what to believe", I have grown very careful at judging people. I would never have thought I could be ruled by fear like this, and it is taking months to overcome it and it is very hard. Although the outcome may be worth it.

So this was my "higher self"? If so, I would not mind merging with it forever! If this is what happens when you die, it is just as well that we do not know it 100%, because suicide rates would skyrocket in difficult situations.

*hugs to you all*

Christiane

p.s. I hope this is legible, the script is broken for some reason on my screen[font=Arial][/font]

Hi Chrwe,

it may be many mystics say that the person dies completely, on the other hand, they usually say it in a mystical way. Reunation with God, Nirvana, dissolve into the great one etc. They don't talk of nothingness. I think some of them have had experiences which we haven't made, so what they tell us might make us frighten, because we only read the words, but don't understand what's behind the words, and that what's behind the words might not be frightening at all.

I think you should overcome your fear of the death of the person. Face it directly. It's not logical. The best way to live is to become independent of what may come after the physical death. See, we have to live now. To always look at the end of everything is the wrong approach. You'll never become happy in a world of transientness when you always look at the end of everything. Everything here is transient. When we don't accept this, it's hell. And when we look at the "person", let's look at what this our person was 10, 20, 30... years ago, what it was when we've been a baby. Isn't it clear that the person is transient as well, without even considering death? And, is it really desirable to become glued to our history for all eternity? Even when there's reincarnation, we never will be the same. As it is in this life. So, why worry?

I really think you should try to get rid of the fear of non-existing. No one here can make you really know what it's like in the afterlife. To get rid of that fear would mean a new way of living for you. It is possible. When you really think about it, question this fear, there will be a point of acceptance, and then it will be a much more peaceful life for you.

About your positive experiences, people who suffer deeply do have moments when they can neutralize the reason they suffer from and go into states beyond what people are capable of who are settled in a dubious belief system. It's often not permanent. But it can be a sign for a permanent change coming, away from suffering.

Spooky

chrwe states:

Psychiatrists can not help you with something like this, btw, take it from me. For me, a psychologist (an older women, very spiritual herself), you people and the love of my family is what is helping me slowly.

Hi chrwe,

I'm with you regarding the value of others to sometimes help us through rough periods. After all, it's a buddy system as we get by with a little help from our friends--family, and like minded chaps like you guys. Jean

Spooky comments:

About your positive experiences, people who suffer deeply do have moments when they can neutralize the reason they suffer from and go into states beyond what people are capable of who are settled in a dubious belief system. It's often not permanent. But it can be a sign for a permanent change coming, away from suffering. 

Hi Dear Spooky :-*,

I think that you're saying that as transitory as peak mystical experiences might be, growing beyond the suffering due to not being held back by strong limiting belief systems--can bring great permanent change and leaps forward. I've certainly found this to be true for me these past 2 years.

Jean

Hello Spooky,

of course you are right and it would be much better if I could accept that we are transient beings in a transient world and that what we are will just be gone. However, it is the "forever" part that frightens me so as well as the loss of all love, wisdom and experience associated with it. Someone said "what is in your heart, do you really believe this" and I must say, my heart says "it cannot be" but my brain says "it is obviously what happens" and sometimes my heart says this too now.

Do you really think we are a different person now than 10, 20, 30 years ago? I have the feeling that I am still the same person, basically, I have new experiences and learned a lot, but I am still the same essential "me".

And it is not only the likelihood my personal oblivion (either through death or through severe brai´n damage) that drives me nuts. It is also the thought that, if this is true, this universe seems totally random and sensseless to me, cruel and unfair. Nothing we do in this life would make a difference, nothing we learn would make a difference, no good, no bad, nothing would matter - not even your children or the love you give, because it will all be gone for good in, say, 1 billion years.

With reincarnation, I have indeed the problem that I do not see how it can be "me" that reincarnates, but hopefully - if reincarnation is true, it seems it has never been truly proved - we remember all our past lives "between" lives. I dont want to be "glued to my personal history" for all eternity, no, I want to continue to learn and experience and expand and grow. But vanish? No.

But I don`t want to just rub my fears on you. Sadly, for me trying not to think about it, especially at night, is like sitting in a burning room with the doors locked and trying to read quietly. I`ll try leave you alone with my fear now :), but thank you all a lot for helping me.

chrwe wrote on Jul 21^st, 2010 at 11:21pm:

Hello Spooky, of course you are right and it would be much better if I could accept that we are transient beings in a transient world and that what we are will just be gone.

Hi again Christiane,
I think you're being too hard on yourself here maybe. Bob Monroe viewed it slightly differently in (and I'm paraphrasing obviously) that we're just passing through the whole Earth Life System on our way elsewhere. But what we are, what we have been and what we will be are not gone -we take all of that experience with us. NOTHING IS EVER LOST.


Quote:

However, it is the "forever" part that frightens me so as well as the loss of all love, wisdom and experience associated with it.

That simply will not happen. see above. Don't be frightened of forever, cos that's where we're all heading -onwards and upwards- and the path never ends. There will always be something new to discover and experience!


Quote:

Do you really think we are a different person now than 10, 20, 30 years ago? I have the feeling that I am still the same person, basically, I have new experiences and learned a lot, but I am still the same essential "me".

Yes, we are all different from the way we were years ago or even months ago. And yes, you are still intrinsically, the basic you at heart, but you transform through experiences, even though the essential you stays the same, if you see what I mean?  :o :-/
You're still Christiane at 1, 11, 21, 31 years old or whatever age you are. You never lose that essence of you, and everything else is added as you grow through the lifetimes. Nothing is taken away. Matter cannot be destroyed, but only changes its nature -to give one quote.


Quote:

And it is not only the likelihood my personal oblivion (either through death or through severe brain damage) that drives me nuts. It is also the thought that, if this is true, this universe seems totally random and senseless to me, cruel and unfair. Nothing we do in this life would make a difference, nothing we learn would make a difference, no good, no bad, nothing would matter - not even your children or the love you give, because it will all be gone for good in, say, 1 billion years.

As this is patently NOT true, you can forget it. ;)
At times the universe can seem a cold and uncaring place, BUT surely its all a case of your own viewpoint. There IS logic and purpose in the universe; just because we can't see or don't recognise it (due to our current level of understanding) doesn't mean that it doesn't exist.
I would call that viewpoint a mental construct.
Here's an example: at the end of the 19th century, supposedly the U.S. patent office suggested to the U.S. government that it should be closed down, as everything that could be discovered already had been!
From their point of view there was nothing else to discover, and that, obviously, is nonsense.
Also I would suggest that you try and become aware of the increasing pressure by certain vested interests in trying to convince most of the population that spirit, reincarnation and the rest are simply the products of a deluded mind and that a three dimensional universe is all their is, we're alone in the universe and merely organic robots that have occurred by a random act of nature, as there's no logic in the universe, anyway.

Now really -do you really accept any of that nonsense?  ;D

The point is that EVERYTHING you do and experience has the utmost importance to the universe. Just as (via chaos theory) a butterfly flapping its wings affects the weather halfway across the world, everything you do has the most profound consequences for you -and by inference, for all of us here.
Remember: you are of the utmost importance, and you still will be wherever and whatever you are doing in a billion years time. But you and I and everyone else will still be around then, just not (necessarily) in this form.



Quote:

With reincarnation, I have indeed the problem that I do not see how it can be "me" that reincarnates, but hopefully - if reincarnation is true, it seems it has never been truly proved - we remember all our past lives "between" lives. I dont want to be "glued to my personal history" for all eternity, no, I want to continue to learn and experience and expand and grow. But vanish? No.

Try and think of it perhaps this way: each life is a new character as an actor ('all the world's a stage'); while you're playing that part (prince, pauper, saint, devil, warmonger, peacemaker, you name it, and you decide it) you get so bound up in the character that you forget it's a play and think it's all real. Then at the end of the play (life) you quite the stage with the memory of all that experience and go home. Next day (life) you get to play another entirely different part, but the inner you that's playing the part is still you regardless.

Reincarnation has been proven time and time again. But those in positions of authority would have the idea rubbished and belittled because it robs them of theirt power over you.
Just imagine if the Inquisition/ Gestapo/ loony terrorists of any persuasion threatened you with death and your reaction was 'oh, goody, I get to go home early then? bring it on!'
Once you accept an afterlife and reincarnation then all of that nonsense about survival becomes moot, because the essential you simply cannot be destroyed -ever, anyhow, anyway. not never, not nohow (my English syntax is bad today  :D)
So you continue, regardless of what others might try and frighten you with. Leave them to their own misery, you can find your own joy and PUL again and no-one can ever take it away from you.
And just in case you're wondering, no I'm nowhere as far along the road as you seem to be -I'm still waiting to be PUL zapped!

Hope this helps,
Lots of love,
David.
:)

Hi David,

Some excellent points in your post above.

Thank you -I'm just doin' my best!  :)

detheridge wrote on Jul 22^nd, 2010 at 10:31am:

Thank you -I'm just doin' my best!  :)

Nicely done, detheridge!  I look forward to hearing about your PUL zap when it occurs, but it sounds like you may already be living it!

Hello David,

thank you for your post. It helped me so much for a moment, until I fell back into fear tonight. You know, what I just dont understand is why brain damage changes a person totally - the personality changes, the thought patterns change, everything we consider a soul changes. If there is an immortal soul, how can this happen? How? I could cry if I think about this. So many have said that people who suffer from brain damage are suddenly another person. I personally know a few - one man, for example, had his brain tumor discovered only because his wife said "this is not my husband" - and when the brain tumor was removed, the husband she knew returned. Or a man I knew who has been injured in the brain by violence, he did not remember his family, everything that made him “him” was gone with this one sudden act. Or the old people I deal with, who just lie in their beds, not remembering anything, not being able to speak, just like very small babies before our consciousness emerges. Our memories, our ethics, our preferences, our whole personality can be changed with brain changes. I don`t understand how this can fit with an immortal soul! It makes me so sad and afraid. Just google "immortal soul" and "brain damage" together and you will see what I mean.

The concept of Ockhams Razor, which says the easiest explanation is usually true, tells me in the face of these things - and in the face of remembering nothingness from dreamless sleep and the two full anaesthesias I had, just a "blank" in my life - it is not possible to believe in a soul besides the brain. Terrible!

If there is reincarnation, how can we learn if we do not remember anything? Why would we not remember our lessons? And eastern, traditional belief about reincarnation mostly says there is no individual soul beyond death, it is the "universal consciousness" (brahman) that survives and is changed, not our individual soul. Or so I understand it. The survival and learning of an individual soul, I was told, and the idea that we choose a life is a modern western idea that came up in the seventies. At least so I was told.

I read a lot about reincarnation experiments, and although there are many interesting results, they mostly seem like hypnotic suggetions to me. Some results have been proven to be blatantly false or impossible (wrong historical facts or overlapping "past lives"), memories from books or suggestions (accidentally) from therapists. The thing is that there is so much information across the internet that it is just impossible for me to judge what is true and what isnt.

I could believe in a soul so much more if the whole person did not change when the brain is damaged - by dementia, by accidents, by a stroke, you name it. Suddenly, you are "gone" - how can one not be toally gone with death? Why has no paranormal event ever been proved? Why do my guides, if I have any, not speak to me in ways I can understand and not rationale away? Why all the secrecy and mystery? And why did Jesus cry in his last moments "Oh God, why did you leave me" - that already scared me when I was five years old.

And before Spooky says anything: Just accepting this is impossible to me, sadly. I wish I could. My life is hell with this, I cannot sleep a single night and I am mostly in fear and despair. Maybe if I had never believed, it would be much easier for me – most atheists just don’t think about death and if they do, they think it`s “peaceful” (how can oblivion and random senselessness be peaceful!). But I used to live in the comfort of a loving God, of a purpose in life, in the security that there is an afterlife - although there have always been nights of doubt since I was a child, it was never this bad. But now I feel like I fell into a bottomless pit. You can probably tell from my posts that I am overtired and really badly off - and I used to be a very rational and spiritual person, always trying to help others and advise them :/.

Hm, while I write this, I get fearful that you will all get angry with me. Let me say again that I do not mean to belittle your beliefs or disprove them, all I am seeking is help. I am so sad, I could just cry and cry. If we just vanish into oblivion, I truly wish I had never been born or died as an innocent child, so as to not experience this terrible fear, sadness and pain.

Please do not get angry with me. I really appreciate your PUL and willingness to help me in this torment. I want to cry at the heavens “I just don’t understand! Please let my soul live! Please, please, please do not make me “rest” eternally. Please speak to me”. And then I feel all alone and desperate. And when I write all this to you, it helps a bit and I hope you have some answers that I cannot find. Thank you all, you ARE helping even if it may seem to you that I revolve in circles endlessly - each new answer helps me a bit to find the light again and each time the questions come anew, but maybe one day the light will stay.

Sadly, I tried but never could OBE or anything similar.

Christiane

chrwe wrote on Jul 22^nd, 2010 at 10:40pm:

Hello David, thank you for your post. It helped me so much for a moment, until I fell back into fear tonight.

Hi again Christiane,
hang on in there -we're getting through this, and you know that all the folks here are on your side!


Quote:

You know, what I just dont understand is why brain damage changes a person totally - the personality changes, the thought patterns change, everything we consider a soul changes. If there is an immortal soul, how can this happen? How? I could cry if I think about this. So many have said that people who suffer from brain damage are suddenly another person. I personally know a few - one man, for example, had his brain tumor discovered only because his wife said "this is not my husband" - and when the brain tumor was removed, the husband she knew returned. Or a man I knew who has been injured in the brain by violence, he did not remember his family, everything that made him “him” was gone with this one sudden act. Or the old people I deal with, who just lie in their beds, not remembering anything, not being able to speak, just like very small babies before our consciousness emerges. Our memories, our ethics, our preferences, our whole personality can be changed with brain changes. I don`t understand how this can fit with an immortal soul! It makes me so sad and afraid. Just google "immortal soul" and "brain damage" together and you will see what I mean.

As I see it, you're forgetting one important point:
you are not your body, you are not your brain, and you are not your thoughts.
Okay, that's three things!  :-/ ::) (doh....)
Please be sure and comfortable with the idea that whatever happens to your body does not destroy or take away from the essential you. Yes of course it can disturb any outside observer to see the effects of brain damage.
Here's another analogy (you know by now that I'm a great one for these  ;))
Imagine the brain as the radio system on a ship: the captain gives his orders to the rest of the crew and they do the rest. Now if that communication system is damaged (brain damage) and the orders coming through are garbled or meaningless it doesn't mean that the captain has gone mad or changed completely into another person.
It's simply that the means of communication has broken down. By your own writings above, when the husband had the tumor removed 'he' came back. The means of communication were restored.
The point here is that he'd never been away in the first place, just that his means of communication had got messed up.
Likewise with old folks who are 'losing it' -I'm guessing that they're beginning to withdraw from this life. There may not be much going on on the surface, but for all you know they may be very active out of body, which would not necessarily show up to the observer.
Maybe someone more experienced on the forum here may like to comment further on this, as I'm only guessing.


Quote:

The concept of Occams Razor, which says the easiest explanation is usually true,

to which I would counter with the alternative argument that when all possibilities have been explored, the remaining one -NO MATTER HOW IMPROBABLE- must be the correct one.  :D :o


Quote:

tells me in the face of these things - and in the face of remembering nothingness from dreamless sleep and the two full anaesthesias I had, just a "blank" in my life - it is not possible to believe in a soul besides the brain. Terrible!

Do you remember all your dreams? No -but any good hypnotist might be able to get you to the point where they all come flooding back. I know exactly what you mean -I've had anaesthesia when younger for dental work, and it was total blackness -very disappointing for someone expecting to see anything at all.
However, consider that some things in dreams can be so alien that your brain in analysing them simply can't make head or tail of things ('does not compute'  >:( :( :o) and so may blank out or translate the info into nonsense.
There's a bunch of stuff about this in both Bob and Bruce's books which you can investigate anytime.
When I'm doing Hemisync tapes and CDs I more often than not blank out completely. Is that because there's nothing there? No, simply because the weight of evidence in the entire Hemisync and Monroe Institute canon is overwhelmingly against that idea.
'I am more than my physical body....'
So even though I may blank out, I know that part of me is still getting the experience and it's stored in my subconscious mind. It's just frustrating that I can't get a conscious memory. So I'll keep bashing away at it until I finally make the breakthrough. What have I got to lose?


Quote:

If there is reincarnation, how can we learn if we do not remember anything?

Ah but we do! Just not in this lifetime.
Also consider the idea that if you remembered all your lifetimes this time around, you might be hamstrung by the weight of knowledge and responsibility. So many lives, so many people to be linked with, so many mistakes  :-X :'( :-[
that you'd end up maybe not doing anything!  :-?


Quote:

Why would we not remember our lessons?

Well, that's supposed to be all part of the fun, trying to work out just what the hell we're here to do!  >:(
In my own case I drifted for years wondering just what the hell I was supposed to do. In fact looking back I can see from this perspective that a lot of it was staring me in the face, but my perception AT THAT TIME couldn't see it. (I would so love to go back to around 1971 and do it all right again instead!!!!!  ;D)
Maybe part of the answer is trying to still the mind to the point where you can get inner guidance. It's always there, the point is just hearing it and getting out of our own way for it to come through.
No I haven't mastered that one either!  :(
Sometimes it works, most times not. But the point there is that once you've got that one working, you'll have achieved that on your own. Another success!
One thing I found has helped immeasurably for me are Bach flower remedies (usual disclaimer) particularly in getting me to understand my life's purpose. The only thing I regret is not discovering them earlier and saving a lot of time in the process.... :-[ (double doh.....)
Quote:

And eastern, traditional belief about reincarnation mostly says there is no individual soul beyond death, it is the "universal consciousness" (brahman) that survives and is changed, not our individual soul. Or so I understand it. The survival and learning of an individual soul, I was told, and the idea that we choose a life is a modern western idea that came up in the seventies. At least so I was told.

Personally, I think that's another belief system. If we are all part of 'god' (to use the only term I can think of at the moment) and all god's creation, and we're all supposed to be linked that way, then how can we NOT survive as an individual soul?
And I have to correct you here: the idea thaat we choose a life is FAR FAR older than the 70s. The U.K. had a Society for Psychic Research in the early part of the 20th century, if not before (Sir Arthur Conan Doyle was just one of the eminent Victorians being associated with this), American Indian lore makes mention of past and future lives and meeting loved ones again, Norse spiritual ideas included this, as I believe was also the case for the Celts Druids and far more.
And of course the Ancient Egyptians were masters of all this stuff!
Do you really believe that this idea would have persisted for so long if there hadn't been some gem of truth behind it? (And I haven't even begun to mention Atlantean lifetimes which I've experience through hypnotic regression..... :D)
Did you know that it's been reported that more people on the planet actually believe in reincarnation and life after death than those who don't? Mind you, you won't get that reported on Fox or Sky News, for reasons I outlined in my last reply to you.

Christiane, dear Christiane, please relax. It's all true, it all works, and you simply can't be excluded from it all.
By the way, I thought's just occurred to me:
You requested all this stuff before you were born!! (AAARRGGHHHH!  >:()
as part of your path.


Quote:

I read a lot about reincarnation experiments, and although there are many interesting results, they mostly seem like hypnotic suggestions to me. Some results have been proven to be blatantly false or impossible (wrong historical facts or overlapping "past lives"), memories from books or suggestions (accidentally) from therapists. The thing is that there is so much information across the internet that it is just impossible for me to judge what is true and what isnt.

I met a woman on a TV discussion show about reincarnation. Unfortunately her name escapes me at the moment, but she's a famous example.
Sher's an Irish lady who as a child starting talking about her 'other' family, recalling names, locations, areas, and even drawing pictures of the house she had lived in with her other 'family'. Despite others pooh pooh-ing her claims as delusions, she investigated here dreams and discovered her family from a previous lifetimes, This woman had been the mother of the family in a previous life and died. Here children were all grown up now, but they've accepted this woman as the reincarnation of their mother and rekindled the relationship they had before.

This is all proved and documented, and there's no 'rational' explanation for this woman's knowledge of a family that she's never met or 'read about somewhere' (an oft quoted excuse in these cases).
In India, where they're a lot more open about these ideas, proven reincarnation is far more common. Again here, young children may talk about spouses and children they have elsewhere, which are then investigated and acted upon, AND ACCEPTED AS THE NORM.
One I saw on U.K. tv a few years ago was especially fascinating as the Indian child concerned even had the mark on his head in the exact place where a bullet killed him in the previous life.
Go figure, as they say.......

And don't discount overlapping past lives. As linear time doesn't exist 'over there', you could argue (and some have on this very forum?) that you can be born again before you've died here.
All those hours of watching Star Trek really pay off  ;D


Quote:

I could believe in a soul so much more if the whole person did not change when the brain is damaged - by dementia, by accidents, by a stroke, you name it. Suddenly, you are "gone" - how can one not be totally gone with death?

See above.


Quote:

Why has no paranormal event ever been proved?

Because there's no money to be made out of it?
Mind you, if that's true, why have both the Russian and U.S. armies spent serious amounts of time and money on remote viewers? That's the paranormal, and 'as it's all rubbish and pseudoscience anyway', and by your own words unproven, why bother?
Answer: because it has been proven, and kept quiet about for obvious reasons. There's too much at stake for them to admit it, and it throws the current scientific world view right out of the window as a result.
Just because we don't know the principles, doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
The principles of electricity and nuclear fusion have always existed, Try telling that to the church is the middle ages and you would have been sent to the gallows as being in league with the devil. In these supposedly more enlighten times it's dismissed as 'pseudoscience'.



Quote:

Why do my guides, if I have any, not speak to me in ways I can understand and not rationale away? Why all the secrecy and mystery? And why did Jesus cry in his last moments "Oh God, why did you leave me" - that already scared me when I was five years old.

Maybe they are speaking but something's blocking your communication. Maybe you are?
I have the same problem with guides. When I went through a crisis many years ago I decided that my guides had given up on me and gone to the beach instead. I used to refer to my guides as 'you bastards!'
It's got a bit better since then, needless to say  ;)


Quote:

And before Spooky says anything: Just accepting this is impossible to me, sadly. I wish I could. My life is hell with this, I cannot sleep a single night and I am mostly in fear and despair. Maybe if I had never believed, it would be much easier for me – most atheists just don’t think about death and if they do, they think it`s “peaceful” (how can oblivion and random senselessness be peaceful!). But I used to live in the comfort of a loving God, of a purpose in life, in the security that there is an afterlife - although there have always been nights of doubt since I was a child, it was never this bad. But now I feel like I fell into a bottomless pit. You can probably tell from my posts that I am overtired and really badly off - and I used to be a very rational and spiritual person, always trying to help others and advise them :/. Hm, while I write this, I get fearful that you will all get angry with me. Let me say again that I do not mean to belittle your beliefs or disprove them, all I am seeking is help. I am so sad, I could just cry and cry. If we just vanish into oblivion, I truly wish I had never been born or died as an innocent child, so as to not experience this terrible fear, sadness and pain. Please do not get angry with me. I really appreciate your PUL and willingness to help me in this torment. I want to cry at the heavens “I just don’t understand! Please let my soul live! Please, please, please do not make me “rest” eternally. Please speak to me”. And then I feel all alone and desperate. And when I write all this to you, it helps a bit and I hope you have some answers that I cannot find. Thank you all, you ARE helping even if it may seem to you that I revolve in circles endlessly - each new answer helps me a bit to find the light again and each time the questions come anew, but maybe one day the light will stay. Sadly, I tried but never could OBE or anything similar. Christiane

Christiane, no-one here's going to get angry with you. A lot of folks here have gone through the same thing in questioning what life and existence is all about and whether any of it has meaning. This is the test we all set for ourselves, and it's a big one to break away from the herd mentality and strike out on (what seems like) your own.
But we're ALL doing it here! otherwise this forum (and no doubt others like it) simply wouldn't exist.

You have the inalienable right to question everything and demand answers. Just consider that the answers might come in ways that you don't expect, and that avenues will open up for you in seemingly random ways -there are no coincidences actually.
And lastly , for now, don't worry about beliefs, They can always be changed in the light of your own experience. Like Bob Monroe said when asked about questions like these: Go find out for yourself. He didn't want to have any dogma about this. If you work it out for yourself then that's perfect for you.
Above all, don't believe a word I write!
If it resonates with you that's fine. If not, that's fine too.
I'm not trying to convert anyone here. These are all ideas for your consideration. What conclusions you come to are entirely up to you. Don't worry, we're all here for you.

Now you're overtired again, so :
GET SOME REST!!

and we'll talk again.

Lots of love as always,
David.

PS. It occurred to me that I don't know where all this stuff is coming from in my replies to you. Maybe your guides are using me to get to you? think about it.

D.
:)

Hi Guys,

Keep up the good work David and the name of the woman is Jenny Cockell. My husband was so impressed by her that he started to correspond with her through her agent many years ago. If interested you can Google her under: reincarnation jenny cockell

Jean

That's the lady!!
And very nice a person she was too.

Many thanks , Jean.

David.
:)

While I applaud David's discussion, I think the case for reincarnation, should not be what one focuses on here.  I will give my own take on reincarnation in my next post, but suffice it to say that many consider reincarnation to be highly popularized, but unsubtantiated.  For myself, I believe that it does occur, but not nearly as often as people suppose.  Most cases are likely to be mergers of consciousness, misconstrued to be past lives.  For the case cited, there is this refutation published on Ms. Cockell's "past family:" (from an article by Joe Nickel)

"Unfortunately, Cockell’s intriguing and no doubt sincere saga does not withstand critical analysis. First, consider the overwhelming lack of factual information provided by the dreams and hypnosis. Unknown were Mary’s surname, either maiden or married, or the names of her husband or children. Similarly, the village’s name and even its location were a mystery. Cockell was ignorant of dates as well, including Mary’s birth date or even the year of her birth. And so on and on.

She employs circular reasoning. She sent out queries that sought a village with certain sketchy requirements and, when such a village was — not surprisingly — discovered, she adopted it as the one she was looking for. Obviously if it did not fit she would have looked further. Such an approach amounts to drawing a target around an arrow once it has struck something.

In addition, the technique of retrofitting (after-the-fact matching) is employed. For example, Mrs. Cockell made a sketch of a church after one of her hypnosis sessions that is matched with a photo of an actual church, St. Andrew’s, in the village of Malahide. But the sketch is simplistic, showing only a gable end and revealing no awareness of the greater overall structure. In addition, it entirely omits the central feature of the church’s gable end — a massive gothic window — and there are many other significant omissions and mismatchings. Moreover, St. Andrew’s is not the one Mary had actually attended, which was St. Sylvester’s Catholic Church, but instead merely one she would have walked by, one belonging to the Church of Ireland.

Rationalizations for errors and omissions abound throughout Cockell’s book. “A lot of the remembering was in isolated fragments, and sometimes I would have difficulty making sense of them,” she says (p. 6). “I still find it hard to see Mary herself. It was easier to see the surroundings, which is not too surprising as I see through her and the life remembered as her. I feel her personality mostly . . .” (p. 9). Mary’s husband was “hard to remember” but then “he seemed to be home less and less” (p. 20). That she lacked even a surname for Mary “was no surprise to me, since I have always been bad at names” (p. 27). Under hypnosis she gave the husband’s name, wrongly, as Bryan; it was John. At one time she thought the family name was O'Neil, rather than Sutton (pp. 37, 38). When the name of the road Mary lived on is found to be Swords, not Salmons, Road, Cockell notes that both begin with S and that the accuracy was “about as close as I usually get when trying to remember names” (p. 66). A village resident “could not quite place the roads” on the map Cockell had drawn, but later found it “to be more accurate than he had expected, given that it had been drawn from dreams” (pp. 64-65). Again, when viewing the Catholic church “struck no chords of memory,” she “wondered, however, whether the frontage had changed in the intervening fifty years or so: the lawns might once have been a graveyard, and the driveway certainly looked new.” She concluded that “so little of what I remembered had stayed intact” (p. 84).

But if Jenny Cockell’s story is untrue, where did it come from? The best evidence suggests that such past-life memories are not memories at all. The alleged remembrances made under hypnosis are simply the products of an invitation to fantasize. "

--------------------------------------------------

None of this should impact on the issue of a person's consciousness persisting after physical death.  The physical body is like clothing which only lasts a finite amount of time.  But thought does not flow from the physical - rather it is penetrating from the spiritual plane and for a while manifests in the physical.


Matthew

Dear Mathew,

You certainly did work hard to gleen out of Jenny's books items that would please the skeptic in you. I notice here that now that Don's taking a break, you've taken his role.

When suffering the “dark night of the soul”, as it appears Christine might be, skepticism is not helpful. I suspect that David is trying to address her questions regarding the afterlife in hopes of lifting her spirits.

Matt states:

But if Jenny Cockell’s story is untrue, where did it come from? The best evidence suggests that such past-life memories are not memories at all. The alleged remembrances made under hypnosis are simply the products of an invitation to fantasize.

Actually Bruce, IMO, encourages us to use our imaginations to free up our thinking (prime the pump) to dislodge some of our traditional limiting beliefs in hopes of allowing our non-physical experiences to become more real.

For many of us reincarnation is a part of our reality just as the conflict you seem to be having  between your religious upbringing and exploration of alternative research ie. Reading Jennie Cockell's story. Remember it's all good.

Skepticism, discernment, or critical thinking certainly, at times, has it's place, but not necessarily here or now. And I realize that we do use this board to explore what's happening in our own minds as well as sharing and giving comfort to others.

Jean

Hi Jean

Um, er - I have not had a religious upbringing, nor do I adhere to rigorous dogma preached by any one "brand."  Nor am I averse to exploration (I have documented many of my explorations and  meditative experiences on this board over the past few years including phasing, healing, and other experiences).

The comments you quoted were not mine (as I noted), but an interesting analysis I found about this one particular case of alleged reincarnation.

Using imagination as a tool to explore is important as long as one realizes that it is not always factual.  I like the analogy of shooting an arrow into a target and then, only afterward painting a bullseye around it.

I am preparing my own response to Christine as well, but I am uncomfortable in the direction you are going with your comments to me; My final paragraph laid the ground work for my belief in consciousness existing apart from the physical body (this is an open minded comment, I assume from a physician trained in Western medicine)

The board discussion should be just that - a discussion, otherwise, I think it would work better as a PM, no?.  While the idea of reincarnation may be taken as a given by some on this board, others - myself included, who have gone through many examples and instances written about, believe that many people go on to productive afterlives and ascend in spirit.  The idea that the feeling of a past life may be confused with a mental merger with a formerly deceased person has not been mentioned in a while and never really addressed by those who do believe in reincarnation.

I think Christine deserves our support, to understand that we are more than our physical bodies,  but she also deserves to hear different opinions.  Or is it only certain opinions you would like her to hear?

Matthew

P.S.

I consider myself more of a mystic than a skeptic.  However, I am open minded to both sides of the issue. 

Hello dear ones,

I am very relieved that no one is angry with me, I was half expecting to hear something along the lines of "what, still not convinced, go away!".

David, I value your posts immensely. I do know the feeling that answers suddenly flow from you and you feel they are right and feel "right" with the universe - but you dont exactly know where they are coming from. I had this in my one week of PUL. Whether this is truly your higher self speaking or if things you have always thought suddenly click - who knows. I believe you have thought a lot about this and experienced a lot, too. Still, the "blank" in anaesthesia is something of a bugger, isnt it? Coupled with the fact that 85% of all clinically dead people also only remember a blank nothingness. However, of course it can be true that we just dont remember what happens without our physical brain and that it is actually an exception if we do remember. I hope very much the latter is the case.

I also value DocM and his opinions immensly. DocM, please do continue to give your insightful and intelligent views. Actually, I already knew about Jenny Cocknell and I read her case carefully and also explored everything she presented as proof and also came to the conclusion that her story has huge gaps. I cannot explain the gaps any better than thinking she may have fallen to her imagination and/or the suggestions of her therapists. David, I do not mean this as an offense, I am just trained to carefully explore all stories and try to come up just with the "hard, proven facts" - I am a good lawyer. Unfortunately, this kind of thinking is rather detrimental if your heart wants to believe and your brain wont let you.

I feel like I am split in two parts. My heart which was always spiritual and my brain which was always highly analytical are suddenly in opposing belief camps!

Really need some rest. You are guiding me, and maybe you ARE all the answer to my prayers. After all, God helps us through other people (or so I always believed), not through miracles. But I would really appreciate my guides showing up a bit more clearly. I can rather relate to the "bastards" sentiment...

Hugs all :). I am glad you exist.

As another one with a legally trained mind I have found answers to these questions will not be found through that constricted critical methodology.  Especially when you try to match up feelings with hard facts, or spiritually manifested illusion with third dimensional structure...apples and oranges...in short, you can't get there from here.

My greatest aha moments have occurred when I was least worried or concerned or even conscious of where my soul was headed.  The revelation hits and I am suddenly viewing things from a different vantage point.  I evaluate these things through meditation and concentrated effort to reach my guidance.  The responses I get range from feelings (gut reactions, warmth emanating from the heart, an internal sense of elation, relief or love (PUL)) to visions and verbal comment...all geared to assist me in understanding the truth of what I have found.  I have found that an effort to make quantifiable sense of the impressions I have gotten would be difficult at best and impossible at worst...beat my head against the wall to question the accuracy or truth of those impressions, or accept the benefit and understanding received, know that is the way it works while the how will come later, and simply live with the benefits derived therefrom.

I do not say these things in an effort to induce you to forego your critical methodology...I simply discuss this to illustrate another way of examining the available information.  It works for me, and if it sounds flaky or new ageish, so be it...who are we trying to impress?  Nobody...we all simply seek answers; no judgment, no criticism...just people, each on our own path to enlightenment.  I wish you joy and happiness on your venture. 

Usetawuz,

Very nicely put.

Thank you,

Jean :-*

Hi Christiane,

For me personally, my proof of an "afterlife" came not so much from verified conversations with spirits, but from discovering that thought or consciousness was primary, and that physical reality was secondary. 

That realization, confirmed by many findings in the physical world led me to the inescapable conclusion that we are more than our physical bodies.  Taken from that standing, it made no sense whatsoever that the basic assumptions of Western science - that the brain creates conscious thought (and without it consciousness does not exist) - were in fact true.

If you are interested in proving that thought can change reality, independent of the physical world, there are easy ways to do so. One way is to access your subconscious mind as you are drifting off to sleep and give yourself autosuggestions; anything may suffice.  As a test experiment, when completely relaxed and drowsy, give yourself a suggestion about what time you want to wake up without an alarm clock.  Do this on the weekend at first.  You may see this as a "hypnotic suggestion," but what is it really?  What mechanism sets it into motion?  Others will give themselves the instruction that they will remember their dreams upon awakening (and they will, more often than not).  As you get more comfortable with this, you can use your subconscious access to effect changes in your life.  Usually, this is done in conjunction of what is for the highest good - but there is no way around it, if done in the right frame of mind, your subconscious accepts the order, and begins to work about bringing it into circumstance in this world.  How?  By changing probabilities in the physcial world - that is as close to describing what happens in the week or two following an autosuggeston given to the subconscious as I can get. 

What we are talking about here is the basis behind "magic" that has been around for eons, and used by those who have discovered the workings - of mind and spirit.  The only difference between the method I mentioned, and occult magic, is that the sorcerer of days gone by accessed his/her subconscious mind more powerfully by binding thought to things in the physical world (incantations and potions), which gave more conviction to the message.  But it is not just for personal gain.  Proper investigation of this mind to subconscious interaction will show anyone who persists at it long enough, that thought can change reality by impressing itself onto subconscious belief. 

As you experience this, at first, it is thrilling, in a sense empowering.  It also, brings about with it a sense of responsiblity.  When I think back over the past few years, I have not tried to use this meditation for selfish ends.

If you don't feel like experimenting with this subconscious system (and I can give you e-book references about it), then you can read objective evidence about conscious thought changing reality done at Princeton University. 

Princeton had a center operating for over a decade called the P.E.A.R. center.  Its mission was to design random number generating machines, completely shielded from any known influence (electrical, chemical, magnetic) and then show that volunteers who sat near the machines and who were told to "change the outcome of the coin toss," would either have an effect on the outcome or not.

The results of thousands experiments were published in the peer reviewed scientific literature.  There was a small but significant difference in the outcome of these random machines when human conscious thought was directed at them. 

The skeptic will say that perhaps there was some hidden bias (etc.) but Princeton went to great pains to shield the experiment from any interference.  Its fascinating if you go to Princeton's site.

So if we are more than our physcial bodies, and if "mind" exists independent of physical reality and can actually change probabilities in the physical world, then consciousness may be primary, and the physical world may be secondary.

For me, this was very strong verification that we, in our truest form are pure thought/mind/perception.  Knowing this, it is is only a tiny step toward seeing how we can exist when our body falls away in death.

Matthew

Just to continue, Christiane, that is how it started for me.  For others on this site, it was different.  Some like OOB Dude have documented out of body travel and states.  Others have talked of near death experiences (NDEs).

As far as evidence goes, NDEs seem to be the best source to convince yourself that while a person is clinically dead, that conscioiusness still exists.  There is an NDE website that you can access to read hundreds of accounts.  You may ask "why doesn't everyone remember when they come back from being clinically dead?"  Memory is a funny thing - some don't process recent events the same way.  But for those that did the accounts are vivid, and many have verifications of what was heard and seen when there was no heartbeat or brain wave activity.


Matthew

These venues all look very interesting. Ustawutz, yes I had this too, verification through feelings of "rightness, relief and happiness". I am not believing my heart for some reason...maybe I can again one day?



DocMs suggestions also look very interesting. However, I would be interested to see if you can also shape physical reality outside yourself. I can already wake up when I want :).



David, thank you again :). Your post was really nice and I appreciate you sharing your insights.

DocM, I have my troubles with NDEs. While I am 100% convinced people experience these and that they are real for them, I have read about 15 books and lots of accounts. The result is that it is an unexplained phenomenon which may well point to an afterlife, but there are many NDEs which have contents that are strange and could well be hallucinatory (seeing Elvis or spaceships or similar silly stuff, see Peter Fenwicks book) and many people see living relatives (about 30%), especially children, and many don`t remember a thing (the majority in fact). There are few and isolated stories with verified events and I think the AWARE study by Sam Parnia has started out trying to prove (by putting pictures on the top of operating tables) that people really leave their bodies, but this has not worked out and now Sam Parnia very much speaks against an afterlife in his 2010 talks. I never had such an experience myself. I do believe the accounts, but I am all confused as to whether this really points to an afterlife or not - this is the problem in modern times, one is exposed to such a lot of information with no way of really finding out what is true and what is not.

While reincarnation is not proven in my eyes - though I believe fully it may be possible and it makes sense, but it is not proven from what I read - there are other interesting stories. Have any of you ever heard of Marc Liblin? He was a Frenchman who died 1998 who learned a strange language in his dreams when he was six. Only when he was about 30, he found out what this language was, a polynesian dialect spoken on the island of rapa iti. He found a woman who also spoke the language, married her and livecd the rest of his relatively short life in Rapa Iti. I read this story in a book about remote islands, looked across the internet for verification and found only a few french textx referring to the story (and ofc the book reviews). It is strange that such an extraordinary story is not published more widely. Is it not true? Possibly. Is it true, but no one was interested? That would be strange indeed.


Anyway, I hope I get through this day better than yesterday. Living in total awareness of death - and fearing it may be the absolute end - is hell, I have often thought it is better not to be born than experiencing this. And you say I have chosen it? In this case - and I hope a lot that it is true - I have a word to say to myself in the afterlife! I can tell you one thing, I will not come back to this earth, if I have the option, I will take this experience and help other souls and/or support them and stay in the "spirit" or "energy" world, however you call it. If it exists, which I really hope (though just cant believe). I`ll try all your suggestions and read your encouraging texts again and again.

wont even waste my time reading about "mystics"
We dont die completly, just our bodies.

Hi again Christiane,
I sense a different energy in your replies now.
There doesn't seem to be quite the fear and desperation of a few days ago -keep going and you will break through!

Many thanks for all the reactions from others: Doc M, Usetawuz and the rest. It's folks like you that make this forum what it is.
However, Doc M, I'm now slightly confused by one part of your post(s):
you believe that reincarnation does occur, but not as often as people suppose. What exactly does that imply?
Surely either reincarnation exists or it doesn't? You can have it both ways and have some folks reincarnating and others not, and doesn't this imply an 'elite' who've mastered it while the rest of us mere mortals are just 'one time' existers? I hope you see where I'm going with this.

Likewise, I'm sceptical of your scepticism! (English spelling by the way)  :o :(
It seems to me that some supposed sceptics -the infamous James Randi may be the most high profile- have goen to the most presposterous lengths to validate their scepticism in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary. Reportedly his $1m offer to anyone who can prove psychic abilities is a sham and various folks have called his bluf on this one.
Another example is Dr. Susan Blakemore (who I met on the same TV programme as Jenny Cockell), eminent university lecturer and arch debunker of the spiritual, who actually had an OBE but later dismissed and disowned it. Some people may do anything to hold on to their belief system. In Susan Blakemore's books she in essence states that life has no spiritual meaning, there's only one moment after another, and this is all there is.
Personally, I find this reductionist approach quite untenable and absurd.

I find this particular view irredeemingly arid and sparse, claiming that the only meaning that there is to be derived in existence is intellectual investigation. There seems to be no room for joy, love, wonder, that magical state of possibilities, many of which might be dismissed by the sceptic as merely the overexcited use of brain chemicals.
But then that's my belief system and I'm hanging onto it!  ;D
Your quotes on the article debunking Jenny Cockell read like familiar fare. Here in the U.K. we occasionally have potentially fascinating TV documentaries presenting ideas on reincarnation and spirit, only to be stamped on by the same familiar talking heads who then proceed to demolish any arguments or explain away things 'logically'; some explanations they come up with seem even more far fetched than the ideas they are supposedly 'debunking'.
What gets me is the patronising tone of most of these folks, who appear to have the hot line to objective truth:
not doubt sincere...fails to withstand critical analysis.... circular reasoning...after the fact analysis....
Isn't the 'sceptic' here taking advantage of the fact that they're fully experienced in deductive logic and analysis and putting themselves up and above an 'ordinary' person? More than a hint of arrogance creeps in at times -we are the professionals after all.........

We do what we can in life, and that includes making sense of seemingly disparate and at times nebulous information, and there's an important point to consider here: interpretation of what has been stored in the soul between lives of memories filtered through physical means.
These ideas are mine and mine alone (I think), as I've not read them elsewhere. Mind you, it could be Christiane's guides getting to me again!  ;D
Here goes:
Human perception and memory can be faulty. I know only too well that my memory of a movie can be faulty. I watched again a Kirk Douglas Western a few years ago for the first time since seeing it in childhood -boy was I in for a surprise when a couple of scenes that I remembered turned out to be MIRROR IMAGE to what was actually on screen.
So I'm postulating that the errors and omissions in any memory of a past life may go something like this:
memories stored in the brain are subject to the laws of the ELS, but when past life reviewed comprise those events viewed by the soul, which may be much more than the physical body was aware of. Names of people in one life may not be relevant in the afterlife as you then know hem by their real names (Bill in this life may really be Fred in the afterlife, and you remember that he was  Jim or Hans or Abdul just a few lifetimes ago; to you, he'll always be Fred).
Now when retrieving information in another lifetime, your physical brain is bombarded by new and unanalysable information, so the brain may either ignore it, dismiss it as irrelevant or chaotic, or translate it 'incorrectly'. (As an aside, has Bruce finally found out what's behind the 'Flying Fuzzy Zone' mentioned in his explorations? see what I mean?)
This does not invalidate the experience or the intention behind it, and I would guess that when you're viewing all this from 'home' between lives, proof in the physical world is totally irrelevant anyway to someone in spirit form.
Now the preceding ideas may seem like I'm being just as dogmatic and desperate to hold on to my beliefs as the professional sceptics, and maybe I am  ::) :-X
All I'm saying is that these are ideas for consideration, and unlike the sceptics, I'm not claiming anything I expound here as definitive.
But inside I know that I've been here before, and my past life regressions TO ME are totally valid and a part of who I am. Some things that came up cannot be explained away as 'oh, you must have read about that years ago' because one lifetime in Moorish Spain really surprised me: I know more than nothing about the subject, I've never been there, I have no interest in the place, but there was the experience.
Mind you, how do you explain the Dogon tribe in Mali, who celebrate the rotation of Sirius B and knew that a supposedly undiscovered star in Sirius is a white dwarf?
The UFO sceptic would say that they were told about it by a Christian missionary? Yeah, and so they developed a whole system of religion based on that evidence?
You see what I mean about the rationale for debunking ideas? Some of them are far more absurd and far fetched than the original ideas being investigated......

So if Jenny Cockell's story is not true, where did it come from?
I would suggest that it's not 'an invitation to fantasise'. Why and how would you fantasise about a bunch of people you've never met and don't recognise (not in this life anyway, hem hem  ;)) and a place you've never visited. Surely there are far more interesting things to fantasise about than a rather 'ordinary' (not in any disparaging sense of the word) family?
In addition, let's just suppose this was a soul matter; Jenny Cockell being the 'mother' of that family in here previous life would damn well want to look after them in another life and would use any and all means at her disposal AT A SOUL LEVEL to make sure that this meeting happened again. It could be a soul or pre life contract, and one of the ways here soul would prompt her physical mind might be through 'imagination', surely?
Anyone who investigates lifetimes comes across the fact that soul groups incarnate as family members amongst others, and I believe that that's exactly what's going on here! (Yay! I finally got to the point in this rather scattergun posting  ;D)

Now any pro sceptic will probably be able to shoot holes in all of the arguments above. When we all cross over (as we must inevitably do) then a lot of us here will have a lot of work to do retrieving the skeptics from their black hole BSTs. For them, there'll be nothing, so boy are they going to be surprised!
See you all there in a few years time?

Lots of love as always,

David.
:)

Hi David,

I didn't want to turn the thread completely into my idea on reincarnation and how it occurs far less frequently than thought, but I will give you a brief description.  The current "party line" from reincarnationists, put forward by hypnotherapist Michael Newtown in his great book Journey of Souls, details how we have life between lives, meet with spiritual planners, choose our parents, etc.  Willingly push our consciousness into physical bodies temporarily losing the memories, but then regain them after death.  All this fits into Eastern religious views of the wheel of karma, and constant reincarnation (whether we like it or not) until we have reached enlightenment, and lost our attachment to illusory earthly things.

However, hypnotherapy has been examined in detail including Newton's techniques.  A good hypnotherapist can guide someone to anything he/she wants.  We had a hypnotherapist here, on this board (Dave MBS - one of the most enlightened souls I've ever "virtually met"), who knew of Newton's methods, and agreed that most of the data could easily have come from directed questioning in the hypnotic state (i.e. "have you found the council of elders who advised you on this life?" "look for them, what do you see?") rather than having the person describe their experience without coaxing.

So far, after extensive searching in different venues, my conclusion about reincarnation is that it is possible, but that many more people stay in spirit and evolve in different areas such as Focus 23, and move into higher spiritual planes.  I certainly don't believe that we must have X number of earthly carnations in order to evolve.  I believe, you see that we have the ability to choose, whether incarnate or not. 

Some of the best spiritual adepts have described what can only be described as a "merging of the mind/soul" while exploring, including Robert Monroe.  In this state, a huge amount of information could be transmitted in an instant.  In the 1700s, Swedenborg even recorded how one might learn so much in an encounter that one might mistake the other person's entire life as their own.  This soul-merging theory, which could debunk many claims of past lives goes unanswered by those who believe in reincarnation.  However the soul-merging theory explains how so many people could have been Cleopatra or Napoleon in past lives (just read the claims out there - pretty far fetched that so many different people would be the same person in the past - unless you get into the more fantastical theory of splitting up of the same soul into different fragments. 

For the Jenny Cockell story, there is a back story that due to abusive parents she had to retreat into a fantasy world at a young age, creating imaginary playmates, etc. and that this trauma was the underlying force to create the need to make it right by being a loving mother.  Now you should understand that I haven't made up my mind either way about her story, other than to say the skeptics article did, for me shoot it full of holes.  If one in a million of us carries memory of a past life through to the next one, we should have more solid evidence than her case has.

What disappoints me most about your post is your apparent belief that reincarnation is somehow necessary for spiritual enlightenment.  To quote your last post:
"some folks reincarnating and others not, and doesn't this imply an 'elite' who've mastered it while the rest of us mere mortals are just 'one time' existers? I hope you see where I'm going with this."

My answer is just the opposite!  Eastern religions such as buddhism, see reincarnation as an awful fate; in the Tibetan book of the Dead, which is still read to the deceased, the dead are spoken to at each stage during death and told not to get fooled into reincarnating on earth.  They are told to follow the path of love, and not become attached to the false notion of separateness in a physical body.  Have you not heard of the wheel of karma?  It is an endless cycle of birth and rebirth based on action begetting reaction - all stemming from a separation of the person from their true divine nature. 

Thought of in this light, reincarnation can be for some, a cross to bear, more out of fear than choice. 

I do want to talk about something in this that I see as greatly uplifting for Christiane (at least I know that it was for myself).  That is, the notion that death of the body, and persistence of the individual's mind, is not incompatible with a union with God.  i.e. - it is a false notion to think that the mystics and great eastern thinkers believe that our consciousness must melt away.

Love and Light,

Matthew

chrwe, not to minimize your concerns, and from another point of view..."Doc, my head hurts when I hit it against the wall", in reply, "Then stop hitting your head against the wall!"  Death will be what it is and will come to us all, some more quickly than others.  Ideally you will live this life to the best of your ability in love and joy and when greeted by loved ones on the other side, will have nothing but wonderful stories to tell...not of worry and fear, but the amazing experiences enabled by love and happiness.

David, Matthew and Jean, what a wonderful thread...thank you each for sharing your perspectives so clearly...

In love and light...

I am not quite as desperate, but my mind sometimes throws the "GONE FOREVER" theme to me and that freaks me out every time, specially at night. I am usually a brave person and the "gone" part doesnt bother me one bit - oblivion for 100 billion years and then waking up? I dont mind! - but forever not being, A painful death? Horrible experiences? I dont want them, but if there is an afterlife, hey bring it on if it has to be. Forever "not being" that is the only thought that scares me.

On the other hand, I dont want to rely on pills - and I find it scary (that does not make it less true though) that a few potent pills will make you relaxed and happy until they wear off. I had some prescribed for the worst part of this, and suddenly I was all relaxed and happy again (and, strangely enough, the firm belief in the afterlife just snapped back, it is something my whole person is based on). Scary, isnt it? Also, that some pills just can take all your emotions away? And other pills can stop your from meditating properly? I experienced that firsthand. On the other hand, I also experienced firsthand that the essential "me" was always there as it is independent of emotion or behavior patterns. Individual thought patterns? Or etheral soul? I dont want to erase part of my mind to find out if the essential "me" still stays through severe memory loss or similar :S. I hope it does.

As regards reincarnation and all other stories, I have seen too much evidence to the contrary presented to be comforted by them. It may be the debunkers are all wrong, but I simply cannot judge it. I cant be alive and dead at the same time :) and basically, my own experience is what I trust most. Keith Augustine, Susan Blackmoore and James Randi have hurt me particularily in this regards. And an article called "the ghost in the machine" by atheist "ebonmusings". WARNING: This is a long text and you should only read it if you are 100% sure of your beliefs, because it may shaken you as it did me, so I am not posting a link. Susan Blackmoore actually seems quite sincere to me, in her own desperate tries to prove anything paranormal for 25 years and always failing. James Rand is too arrogant to take seriously on the other hand. Keith Augustine is very aggressive, which makes him a bit unbelievable, but his arguments are worrisome. And I still cannot explain to myself, if we have an etheral soul, how things like moral judgement or compassion - very basic things that make us human - can be lost through brain damage. Am I still the same "me" without compassion? Come to think of it, I probably am (although I regard compassion as an intrinsic part of me), but it is a scary thought.

These debunkers may all be wrong, but they present well structured arguments. How can I know they are wrong? No spirit ever contacted me, no OBE ever worked out for me, no answer I cannot ration away with selective awareness ever came to me.

Ah, you know all about my fears now. The belief that I had until about 6 months ago, something that evolved from years of trying to stay close to the spiritual and being interested in spiritual reading and just thinking things for no particular reason was the following: We all have in us an "essence" that makes us "us". This essence stays the same throughout our lives, but is shaped - a little bit - by our experiences. It is independent of this particular life and of our emotions and of our brain functions or anything physical, because it is far more basic than these. It is the observer of our experience in this life and is the same in our dreams - when we forget all about waking life. I thought that our purpose here is to promote love and a better world as much as we can, this will shape the essence in a positive way. I thought when we die, we become sort of a "spirit person" for a short while, able to fly around and watch our loved ones, this earth and visit other planets and other dead people if we like. And that, being so great, of course greatly losens our attachment to our life and that we continue evolving towards "the light". I also thought that we retain all memories from this life (or we would not recognize our loved ones), but they dont matter as much as we think. Lastly, I thought all physical and mental illness just drops off when we die. I never thought what the eventual purpose of this would be, though, and never wondered why we would do this at all. I cant say where the ideas came from, but since they are so common now, I must have picked them up, though I cannot remember it and thought I had developed them on my own. Oh, and I am also convinced that it does not matter one fig what religion you have, either you work for love - then you are "right" - or you work for hate, aggression and destruction - then you are "wrong", whatever the reasons you put forward.

This belief fell away for some reason when I was faced with cancer (which is now gone, hankfully) and REALLY had to think about death. Then all I knew about the brain and my "nonbeing" experience during general anaesthesia, as well as my totally atheist upbringing, suddenly clicked and I went down the spiral.

I`m really grateful for your help and believe me, a lot here has helped me a lot, if only to gain back a slight sliver of "what if there is anything after death after all" back. Personally, if there is anything, I am still convinced of my above belief system and that no one is forced to reincarnate or, in fact, do anything in particular, but emerges in an afterlife that "just is" same as this life "just is".

Ustawutz, you are right of course, but especially at night I feel I dont get a choice, my head is being hit against the well :)

Hi again gang and thanks for all the replies.

Matthew,
sorry if I either got the wrong impression or gave the wrong impression in my reply.
You said:
What disappoints me most about your post is your apparent belief that reincarnation is somehow necessary for spiritual enlightenment.

Not so. I (mistakenly, obviously) concluded that you meant that many cases of reincarnation were 'mind-melds' (?) rather than the real thing and so the true number was a lot less than claimed, so I thought that you meant that for some reincarnation might not even be possible. Mixed messages, but then that's the ELS for you!  :-/
Apologies for any misunderstanding caused.

As Bob Monroe has pointed out in his explorations, the Earth Life System is just one path out of many, so obviously there are probably an infinite number of ways to get to wherever we're all heading. I still think that some debunkers may have a vested interest in keeping the population at large from investigating this subject, either by 'proving' that it doesn't exist, or picking holes in theories or belittling those who claim prior knowledge of past existence.
Some of you folks here may know (or my not know) that reincarnation was originally one of the tenets in the Bible , but was struck out around the 5th century at the second council of Nicea under the Emperor Justinian. The Pope at the time refused to attend as he knew a setup when he saw it. From that day, reference to the pre-existence of the soul was declared anathema.
So most of this stuff is political and not religious or spiritual in nature; maybe its more about power base building over a populace?

And Christiane, if it helps, according to Bob Monroe, graduates of the ELS don't half get a lot of respect from other folks in the universe for what they have experienced and achieved. One day in the future you're going to get a LOT of respect for what you will have achieved.
Interestingly enough, I read in either Bob's or Bruce's book (someone correct me as to which book it is if wrong) that ELS graduates never regret a single moment of what they've experienced on the way to graduation. No matter what they've been through, it's all been worth it in the end.

It's late at night now and I'm exhausted after some fun gigs and not enough sleep so I'll continue this later.

Lots of love

David.
:)

David...I've gotten the same impression...we don't have to incarnate, but if we do we get a tremendous amount of credit for having done so.  Almost like "Holy cow...you did that?"  And all the events we live through are like merit badges and accolades for which we take credit for but have the sense of "for what?" 

I am beginning to feel like one of those action movie heroes...I live lives here on earth in rapid succession...live long or die seems to be my modus opporandi.  Right now I am living long, but my prior three lives over the last century have all gone fairly quickly.  I look forward to finding the rationale, but until it happens I'll enjoy the ride.  After all, what is the alternative...living for nothing?

Hi again folks!

Usetawuz -many thanks for that; brilliant stuff!
Christiane, many thanks for the mention of ebon musings website. I've had a look at it -no I didn't read it all otherwise I'd have been up all night and STILL not have finished  :-/
However, I notice some highly interesting remarks on the home page there, which basically echoes some if the sentiments that other atheist sites have come up with: we're a random occurrence in the universe, there's no other life out there, etc.
What makes this paradoxical is the fact that in the last few years scientists have found evidence of life of a sort on Jupiter's and Mars moons (shades of 2001 and 2010 -the books?) and they're now predicting that the universe is teeming with BILLIONS of potential earth type planets 'which could support life'.
Now these are scientists postulating this -the very folks that atheists relay on to 'prove' that nothing else exists outside of a three dimensional universe.
Hoist by their own petard, I'm thinking!  :P 8-)
Ebon Musing's site seems to be long on the most detailed analysis of the human body and the fact that there's no evidence for the type of thing we're aall investigating here.
To which I would ask, what about the bits of the brain that appear to have no function, and for that matter, what's the point of 'junk' DNA -which appears to serve no purpose?
I'm guessing that it's simply (ha!) again a question of their perspective. If you're not accepting something as a base line for your investigations then you'll be hamstrung right from the beginning.
For example, many years ago on TV here , comedian Benny Hill did a skit on H.G Wells' Time Machine, where he travelled from 1901 to the mid 60s (I did say it was many years ago!) In the then 'present day' he was shown pictures of everyday 60s things, and when he saw a picture of a Vulcan bomber and asked what it was, immediately replied 'Moth'!
If you consider the vague shape of a moth and a delta wing aircraft, then to the viewer who doesn't know what they're looking at, they'll relate it to what they already know.
Hence the references in the Bible to Flaming Chariots -observers of the time would thing that a chariot was the ultimate form of transport, and American Indians labelling of steam locos as Iron Horses.
I hope I haven't wandered to far off the point here  :o :-/ and that you're following my line of reasoning. The atheist debunker will only analyse up to the limits of their perception and discount anything that falls outside of their perceived reality, and I would guess hang on to their belief system under any circumstances to avoid one of Bruce's belief system crashes?

Going back to Ebon Musings, we get there the oft repeated cry 'if God exists, why does God allow this and that to happen, etc' -which obviously misses the whole concept of pre life agreements to (amongst many other things) experience dying in a natural catastrophe, FREE WILL, and all the other things that make everything in life make sense if you consider that we're not just organic robots ,but spiritual beings having a break from our natural state by exploring what it is to be in a human body and experiencing life on this planet and in this universe.

Boy that was a long sentence (I must brush up on my grammar  :D)!

On we go: If the above is true, then (as some have argued) this life isn't actually real at all -does Zen talk about the illusion of matter? -and we're just playing at life. If all life is just an experience, then if I experience pain death or suffering in any form whatsoever, its just an experience to show me what it's like to go through that. As the essence of me cannot be harmed or destroyed -just my body, and I'll be throwing that one away eventually and getting a brand new one for the next time around- then everything that happens is meant to be. There are no random occurrences, even if we personally can't see the link.
Of course all this is fine and dandy when you're back home in the spirit world, but doesn't help you here where you believe that all this stuff is really happening to you, and obviously if you get stuck in that belief system (which we all do) then that may account for some of the folks who get stuck in the BST's between lives.
So all of these things the atheist folks discount and with those 'self imposed' -as opposed to definitive- limitations they'll never work there way out of the dead end that they've got themselves into.
The above and my earlier posting may account for the blankness and nothingness that many NDE'ers experience: maybe they're not expecting anything, maybe that's their conditioning, or they simply haven't woken up to being out of the body at that time.
Both Bob's and Bruce's books are full of strange (to the newcomer) reading dimensions and beings. After all, just what would you make of Bob Monroe's encounter with a W.C. Fields type character who cruise the universe collecting and dealing in ........jokes and humour?
Let's face it, tell any professional sceptic that you've encountered a non physical entity like that and you'd be sent off to the funny farm (how many people in institutions are simply open to non physical dimensions and have no terms of reference, and so are labeled nuts?)

So Christiane, hopefully this lot above will give you more to ponder and realise that you have the free will to accept or REJECT what they're telling you. If it resonates and feels right, it's for you. If it winds you up (and from what you've written I'm guessing that that's the case) or causes fear (which may be the full intention?) then it's not the real deal.

When I woke up this morning I got an idea for you:
Bob Monroe found that his INSPEC (his word for an intelligent species or personal guide) who helped him through so much and then eventually left was actually his own future self who came back and helped him!
If that's true -and I've no reason to doubt it- your future self is helping you through all your stuff right now.
Obviously what that means is that YOU'VE ALREADY MADE IT THROUGH YOUR FEARS AND YOU'VE COME BACK TO HELP YOURSELF THROUGH THIS!

Your own success is guaranteed because it's already happened -it's just working its way through into linear time (you really must watch more Star Trek  ;D)

Lots of love,

David.
:)

Hi,

yes, indeed, lots to ponder and a lot is a good argument, too. If you read my post "debunking the debunkers", you will see that I have already pondered the atheist arguments a lot and of course there are valid counter arguments! If I didnt think so, I would not have come to this forum but laughed it off. However, if one thinks two things are possible (spirit world or oblivion) and one is the thing you fear most and you have no way to find out 100%, it is still a very uncomfortable position. But as ustawutz says - banging your head against the wall doesnt help. I hope my brain stops bashing the rest of me against the wall soon, I am trying a few exercises to this end.

As regards NDE´memory, I dont think its due to belief systems, many atheists had NDEs (and were no longer atheists afterwards) and a lot of believers only remembered nothingness. It must be something else, likely a memory issue. Come to think of it, if we assume the NDEs partly happen in the spirit world, it is surprising that any memory at all transports to the physical brain.

Ebonmusings is the best atheist site that I know as regards non-aggressive arguing and obviously, the person is a highly intelligent, experienced debater. But of course there are flaws in his arguments. He does not explain the mute bits in our brain. He does not explain why there should be a god-interface (religious area) in our brain (there is), he does go into the fact that it can be damaged and then you lose interest in religion (which is true), but his conclusion that this means that there is no truth in religion is completely wrong, a classic example of a wrongly structured A means B argument. You might as well say that damaging the eyesight area in your brain means that eyesight is a myth and that there really is no world to see.
We have to accept that in this body, our brain is our interface to anything spiritual and obviously even that can be damaged, that may be an experience to have, though, same as any other.

Another argument, for example, of his is that evolution is not random and therefore, the often stated argument of creationists that the world is too complex to have evolved by pure chance is false. But he admits that mutations as such are random. Ah-ha? Even if you assume that evolutionary changes are very slow and that survival of the fittest is what governs it (which is, btw, wrong as scientists are proving at the moment), random chance is random chance and highly unlikely. And he doesnt even go into the question why such an extraordinarily low chance of a working universe (stable and not immediately collapsing) should have happened in the big bang when mathematicians have determined this is so unlikely that it almost cannot be true. So - I know that there are lots of counter arguments :).

In the end, I have to accept that unless I manage to experience the afterlife on my very own, I wiill never have any convincing evidence. That is, as I understand, what Bruce Moen says too. I wish he would tell me what to do if his or Bobs techniques just dont work :). At least, I havent managed in about 9 months of trying.

Anyway, you and ustawutz and DocM have given me great thoughts and a lot of help. I know I still will have a lot to work through, and it will likely take a long time till I can live freely again. Maybe find back to that state of PUL...at least part of the time. That would be wonderfu,

As to gathering experience in this life: Man, if this is true and I can remember it after my death, then I will surely not choose to incarnate here again :).

chrwe wrote on Jul 25^th, 2010 at 6:41am:

Hi, As to gathering experience in this life: Man, if this is true and I can remember it after my death, then I will surely not choose to incarnate here again :).

Well, there may be lots of other things you might want to do: test pilot, stunt man, belly dancer........... ;)

David.
:)

I don't really know what a mystic is defined as, but generally speaking, it sounds like a spiritual person.....

The bottom line is pretty much everyone that is a spiritual person normally believes in some form of an afterlife. If they don't, I would say they are in fact NOT a spiritual person after all.

Hi Christiane,

I'm going to offer some thoughts here.  Like you, I'm a lawyer, becoming such after a number of years of working in the sciences.  I'm very left-brained, stuck in my head and in my body.  Like you, for the last year I've been trying to experience and explore as many on this board have successfully done, but with little success.  I will keep trying.  And I do believe in, have chosen to believe in, an afterlife.

A couple of aphorisms I often turn to.  You will be about as happy as you make up your mind to be.  Don't believe everything you think.  The latter I have on my license plate holder and is from a meditation weekend with Pema Chodron. 

No one will convince you there is an afterlife, unless you are willing to be convinced.  But no one can convince you there isn't, unless you are willing to be convinced.  Think of all the religious leaders, sects, etc. through the ages and all the detractors through the ages.  I see it as a mountain with the peak being the afterlife, enlightenment, salvation, nirvana or whatever you want to call it, with many, many different paths to the peak and with many, many detractors trying to bring down the mountain.

So what's someone like us to do?  I think we choose to believe in the afterlife (use your own term).  If we do so, we are compassionate and kind to ourselves and others, living with PUL as much as we can, thereby having a happier and more satisfying life than otherwise and helping others to do the same.  So what's the downside if it turns out that when we die it's eternal oblivion?  We've still had a happier and more satisfying life. 

And, if Monroe and Moen are right and you believe in the oblivion option or even spend your days fearing it, then you will end up in the afterlife in a BST or level where that is your reality, at least until you can be awakened to something else.

I don't go around trying to convince anyone of my views, but I also don't spend a lot of time looking for detractors to tear them down.  What's the point?  I've read Moen, Monroe, Thomas Campbell and others and keep synthesizing what I think might be out there beyond our physical world reality, which no one can explain or really know as long as we are in this physical reality.  The ultimate paradox.  And I keep trying to do my own exploring and someday will succeed (or as they say, die trying).

So what am I saying?  Even without convincing evidence to you, you can make a choice of what to believe and live your life accordingly.  And know that there will never in this physical reality system be absolute, undeniable proof of what lies beyond death or beyond our physical earth life system.  You and your chosen beliefs can create your reality.  And while we are in this body, that's what we have - and it's good enough.

Pat

Wow...we've got a bunch of lawyers on here!  Pat E., you're right...we make a choice as to what to believe...mine was less a conscious choice and more one of default (or guided by hands not my own!) and I came to see, hear and feel those around me helping me.  And while I am in touch with them during meditation, while conscious they let me know they're there in odd little ways, but always reassuring, none the less.  Their direction has always been impeccable and sometimes lifesaving...without believing in them or their  contributions to my welfare I wouldn't be here...and they have assured me everyone has their own.  Seek and ye shall find...but from a practical standpoint don't "try too hard"...let them come to you and be ready to hear them...they are the quiet voice of love at the back of your head you almost feel instead of hear, but the words of hope, love and direction are there.  My greatest wish would be that you each find their voices and benefit as I have.

In love and light...

Wow. I can only say I am really impressed and grateful for all the intelligent and compassionate answers I got here and from one of you in a PN.

Eeeh, unfortunately you are right, nothing is 100% proof, nothing can convince totally and beyond doubt.

So, it is down to choice. I am trying to alleviate the nights of fear by telling me, mantra-like "Maybe there is something out there and if not, you will not suffer, you will just not know". I keep repeating that and otherwise, get up immediately (even if I spend my days tired atm) if the fear cycle starts, because I can tell you that lying in the dark and quiet and letting your mind have a go is about the worst thing you can do.

Pat E., where I am from in Germany, we have a famous theologican named Hans Küng. Nowadays, all theologicans who are intelligent and worth their salt do not believe in a simple, childishly pictured heaven of "a golden city" and some have even turned outright atheist which I find sad. He, however, says he still feels his life is guided by more than his hands alone and he believes firmly that when he dies, his life will be "completed in God". And then he says: "And if it is not true and there is just eternal nothingness waiting for us? Well, then I have led a better life with my belief than without it." That is SO correct. However, I hope both of us will have a real OBE or similar experience one day.

You are right, all of you. In fact, my heart still believes there is something more than this life (but my mind does not) and maybe that is something I will have to learn to live with. I only wish the heavenly guidances, whoever and whatever they are, would take a bit more pity with me and give me comfort and help me forget about the issue for the nights at least :).

Btw, ustawutz, there are many philosophers and writers throughout the ages that have been lawyers, it is probably because the profession is - if you are willing to allow it - based on philosophical thinking. For what is law but a consensus of society what is right and what is not? And the question "is there a higher law out there or is it JUST social consensus" has been debated heatedly by our colleagues too :). Or the question in how far a criminal truly had a choice to act (mental illness, free will etc). And there are the manyfold legal problems on the fringes of life, at the beginning, at the end and during transition. When are you legally alive? When are you legally dead? How is a person to be treated during a period of unconsciousness? How are you to weigh their rights and wishes against the rights and wishes of a society or of their doctors? All questions that are very hard to deal with...and ultimately lead you to the ultimate question "why are we here? What is our purpose? Is there anything besides the physical or are we just evolved monkeys?"

Since I do medical law, I am even closer to these questions. So maybe it is not surprising that you hear a bunch of lawyers thinking about this - in my case, thinking far too much :).

Anyway. I am deeply grateful to you all who answered here (and heisenberg69 too :)). I feel connected to you now in a way. Love and light to you all, and I do hope that we get the chance to meet after our bodies are gone - and if not, that we will have had a happy and fulfilling life and an easy "going to sleep".

Christiane

Hi Christiane,

There is a reason that most of us don't have a bonafide NDE (near death experience), and that is, when the heart stops, most will not come back.  But some do.  Many carry no memory of what occurred, some others have.  The descriptions and verifications, healings, etc. associated with NDEs are impressive.  The lack of memory of some may be attributed to where their mind was at at the time of temporary death, and how their memories are processed (i.e. - sometimes you remember dream on awakening, sometimes you don't).

You may be surprised to find out that most who have OOBE, do not travel to the heavens and talk to the deceased.  Most, like OOB Dude (who has posted many experiences on this board) have experiences of flying, being in a different state of mind, communicating with other beings in different ways, but it is not a path for many to an afterlife.  Why?  There may be several explanations.  Some may see the consciousness as traveling in the physical plane or an astral realm close to the physical but not yet in the afterlife.  My own belief is that to concentrate in "getting out" of your body is to miss the point.  We don't need an astral body to travel.  We are consciousness, right here and now, voluntarily connected to our physical plane.  However the blocks to communication are self imposed; this is one of the main things TMI and Bruce teach.  We must release limiting belief systems in order to explore.  The use of fantasy/imagination just gets it started - i.e. if I imagine a conversation with grandma, it may all be in my head.....but then grandma may say something unscripted.  Instead of backing away, we follow that.  This imagination technique facilitates breaking down barriers, but it still takes time.

The most common complaint I hear about meditation, hemi-sync CDs, etc. is that a person is frustrated because "nothing is happening." The answer to that complaint is that you shouldn't try so hard.  When you are relaxed when you can explore, things will come in their own time at their own pace.

So keep on your quest but don't despair.  Imagine, if you will a life review, where you are shown images of yourself vexed by worries of nonexistence, when the lesson was that you interact everyday with loved ones and strangers with whom you could make a difference.  Almost everyday, I keep the idea of PUL with me in the back of my mind.  When confronted with a tense situation, or bothered by something I will often think "what is the most loving response to this?"  I know it sounds trite. But I believe I am the better for it.  If I make a mistake (act out of anger, etc.) I try to make amends a lot quicker.

And a funny thing happens if you take notice of things and try to make a difference.  The tough times, the trials seem to pass a bit more easily.  There is grief, but there is more love, because you've opened yourself up to it, express it, and therefore receive it.


Matthew

Matthew,
brilliant reply -many thanks and that's answered some questions I've had for years!!

Love,
David.
:)

I am wondering if you have read Tolle's first book, since your own experience is a fragment of his. We all long to recreate that transcendent experience, but I think if it comes on 100% it changes everything. It's not just about feeling good and continuing business as usual. You don't live in the same world any more.

Tolle has talked about how what hapened just before his peace experience started was that he was incredibly depressed, and then he looked at things from a different angle. I see parallels in that and the experience of the "hero" of that book Kardec likes. The guy is in the hellish part of the afterlife, and only gets out when he gives up and sees things from a different perspective, and asks for help. Which he gets.

I find the surrender the difficult part. I have this in mini episodes. When it is unbearably painful, I try to think of myself as standing in the Light. Sometimes it actually seems to bring about a shift. But it is difficult to do when one doesn't feel too happy, because to stand in the Light and focus on the pain, causes the pain to increase at first. Not exactly instinctive.

I have read Tolle`s book, but only after this started and yes, I have noticed startling similarities except that I am still waiting for the solution :).

It is a good idea to imagine oneself standing in the light, I`ll try that.

In my better moments, I dont see this as just any crisis. Probably I am supposed to learn something important. Maybe the most important lesson there is - to live for love without a definite proof that there is a reward as well as moving closer to the light mystically instead of rationally. It`s far from working yet, though. And I am 100% sure one has to get there without becoming spiritually arrogant in any way. Even harder.

A priiest (not the one I mentioned earlier) I talked to about the issue said to me that also, possible, I am meant to remind others what really counts in life and what this is all about. Who  knows? I am really amazed and joyful about many of the responses I get, here and at other places, while other responses are very negative (and obviously, the people in question still have to learn a lot about the issue themselves).

Christiane,
you are a very wise person!

Love,
David.
:)

This can be a good place to come to discuss what Bruce calls a belief system crash.