Something else I've thought about off and on before:

Say eventually some science lab produces a human clone that successfully develops from embryo to newborn baby, and that the baby grows up like any other child and is normal in every way (other than, of course, how it came to be).

If that's the case, what does that mean about her/his soul?  Do they have one, and if so, what does that mean, given that they weren't conceived "traditionally/normally," even beyond the standard of artificial insemination?

Would it be a sign that the soul "rolled with the punches" of what we humans were up to on Earth and decided he/she would "hop on board" the embryo's body as they otherwise would have one who was conceived normally?

Then we would just have a normal human with the same genom as the one from which this one is cloned from. Like twins. There may be some more differences, from being nourished in a different utero (some gen-complexes seem to be activated/deactivated due to the conditions in the utero) and from growing up in a different surrounding.

Spooky

From what I have read, it seems that spirits decide to be born and look for a willing womb to engage with. If the mother decides to abort or there is a spontaneous abortion, the spirit looks around for another suitable womb situation.  So if there is a setting of any kind where a human body is being created, I would guess that any spirit wanting to materialize would choose it just as willingly. That's my guess anyway. Vee

spooky2 wrote on Jun 4^th, 2010 at 8:30pm:

Then we would just have a normal human with the same genom as the one from which this one is cloned from. Like twins. There may be some more differences, from being nourished in a different utero (some gen-complexes seem to be activated/deactivated due to the conditions in the utero) and from growing up in a different surrounding. Spooky

Right, but assuming we have a soul, how did the soul get there if the body was produced in such a fashion? 

Perhaps it is better to think of the body inhabiting the soul, rather than the soul inhabiting the body. It is difficult to think about this. The vision I have is that there is no real separation. It is more of a 'flow' which is all interconnected, rather than a movement of 'soul' 'into' the body. When the conditions are right, and it can happen, it does, and there is a 'flowing' from the 'light' which is the source, but it is all one process which is completely permeated with what we might call 'love', very miraculous. This is true, as I see it, for all 'who' are animated by life. There is no real separation, nor was there. I'm not sure how close that is to the truth, but it seems like I have to believe my own vision of this process. There are many others.

I agree with b2.

Even if we uncritically assume there is a soul on the one side, and a (growing) body on the other side, I can't see a difference of the two's "marriage" between a normal conception and cloning.

To me it sounds not convincing that there is an unchanging, eternal soul on the one hand and a body on the other hand, and this soul then incarnates into a body. It is more like the great awareness has fractioned itself, and is making experiences as, for example, humans.

Spooky

My take on things is that we are all pinpoints of awareness in the mental plane, and that yes we do incarnate in a body.  If a body is cloned, it does not mean that the person's identical awareness is duplicated.  Because a body is a vehicle, much like my pants and shirt are; a functional way to interact on the earth plane.

As to how we, as points of awareness in the vast see of cosmic consciousness choose to insert ourselves into a body - I can't say I know how that happens.  Just seems natural that a clone would have its own consciousness, and not create any paradox. 

Identical twins are born all the time.  Genetically identical, but since genes only have to do with physical manifestations, each of the twins has their own unique souls and thoughts.


M

DocM wrote on Jun 7^th, 2010 at 10:50am:

My take on things is that we are all pinpoints of awareness in the mental plane, and that yes we do incarnate in a body.  If a body is cloned, it does not mean that the person's identical awareness is duplicated.  Because a body is a vehicle, much like my pants and shirt are; a functional way to interact on the earth plane. As to how we, as points of awareness in the vast see of cosmic consciousness choose to insert ourselves into a body - I can't say I know how that happens.  Just seems natural that a clone would have its own consciousness, and not create any paradox.  Identical twins are born all the time.  Genetically identical, but since genes only have to do with physical manifestations, each of the twins has their own unique souls and thoughts. M

This sounds right to me...I don't think a child must gestate inside a mother to be infused with a soul.  However, I do wonder how the timing of the cloned child's entry into the world would be pegged from an astrological standpoint. 

A human is a human is a human - the way it is conceived does not matter. This is my firm opinion.

As to the soul: Why should it have any more difficulty moving in and with a "cloned" body than with a "conceived" body?

It might be a problem if we ever create an artificial - truly artificial - being with such complex circuitry that it can start thinking for itself.

Even that is no true problem to my mind. As soon as any being can think "oh, I am, how wonderful" all by itself (in any fashion) it has a soul. Whether it was conceived through intercourse, whether it was made in a petri dish, whether it is carbon based or silicon based does not matter, does it? It`s the awareness that counts.

Many years ago---yikes about 40 years ago-- I read T. Lobsang Ramp's books (24 of them) and he really "set some bricks on my road" to parapcychology and spirit. He wrote that there would be a time when only adult bodies would be produced, thereby eliminating the uncomfortable birthing process, and the trans-migrant spirits would not have all their memories wiped out of the "before".  Transmigrations from one spirit "body" to another human body have continued for eons. We just don't remember!  Each sprit/soul emcompases its own human form, no matter how the "body" was created.  Even conjoined siamese twins have each their own spirit/soul.  Beings with two heads, two bodies also have a seperate spirit, although they may actually share the same soul.  The soul helps maintains the physical, while the spirit maintains the soul.  Hugs-- Carol Ann

I suppose my thoughts revolve more around the idea that the moment of our birth determines our personality and behavioral characteristics from an astrological standpoint...location and exact time being critical in locking in said characteristics.  If one comes from a beaker or any other artificial womb, what is the trigger for determining the actual time of birth? 

 

For that matter, what is the trigger when someone besides the mother and baby arbitrarily sets aside a day and decides that's that day the baby will be born/induced? I sure don't understand all these things. I doubt I ever will. But, it's fun to talk about.

A Soul, as I think of it, can inhabit any kind of matter it chooses to, maybe more than one kind simultaneously.  My Soul is like air - some air is in my lungs right now, but there is so much more air than what I'm currently breathing! 

b2...you're right...we won't understand, and it is fun to talk about.

calypso...that makes sense...and our souls occupy our bodies because it is simply the  best suit of clothes to wear right now for the occasion at hand...

So where can I find the tailor to make a few strategic alterations in this suit of clothes (without paying the high price of plastic surgery)?   ;)

Pat E. wrote on Jun 17^th, 2010 at 1:48am:

So where can I find the tailor to make a few strategic alterations in this suit of clothes (without paying the high price of plastic surgery)?   ;)

Ha!  I think you're gonna have to wait until next time! I, too would like to tailor away an extra ten pounds without the necessary work, but for now, "we are what we wear", in a literal sense!   

Put my order in, too!!!! Now that I hit 61 years old, I sure could use an overhaul----LOL

In Tibet, the astrology chart IS NOT draw up in accordance to the time of birth; rather, the time of conception.  Astrology can be trickey.  One must also remember the time zones with the location.
Anyhow---  this was a good thread! 

Yes, our spirit can occupy may aspects of our many variables/parrallels. The soul is what gives the physical its life. The spirit gives the soul it's purpose.
Some day (when I'm long gone from this planet) there will be a "merging" machine that will allow healthy molocules to merge with our damaged bodies and prolong healthy, long lives (also wll be a slimming agent---huray!!) Then, any spirit may occupy the physical host to experience what it is like to dorne a human body. It will be likened to putting on an article of clothing to get the "feel".  --- carol ann