The Transcendental State:

It might be a good time for this issue to be aired. The Transcendental State is not well understood or easily recognized even for New Ager’s to actually know it exists or what it is…

Before I go into what it is let us look at an arbitrary statistic… it is believed that 1 in 10,000,000 people achieve enlightenment.

Essentially, those of you who are familiar with Bruce Moen’s Quadrilogy are aware of his ‘Curiosity’ - cosmograph… in it a single probe returns to its source on its own… this is the Transcendental Experience… a probe returning and establishing a ’Yoga’ with its source.

The planet has a population of 6,812,200,000 which means that at this instant there are 6812 Self-realized beings on the planet.

6812 beings have successfully returned to the source…

Unfortunately, I have found no statistic which establishes how many of these 6812 are capable of a coherent explanation of the state… let alone a procedure for teaching others to attain the state… therein lie the rub…

Case in point: Ramana Maharshi became enlightened as a teenager, going into a state of oneness and bliss… but was unable to speak for two years…
The story includes exploitation by one spiritual manager collecting money in connection with access to Ramana… thus creating a pall of distrust around the personage… fortunately, this was resolved… but the dilemna for the seeker of true teachers this is a big problem…

What is the Transcendental state? It is knowing that God is Immanent… always there not needing anything or anyone… when the spiritual aspirant achieves ‘Yoga’… the aspirant has Transcended… and becomes God… that is the long and the short of it…

How do you do this? Well, that can be a big problem… Or no problem at all… the usual paradox… it depends on whether you are a pure heart or not..

S.

Seraphis1, How did Ramana Maharshi express this enlightenment? Do you have any idea about this experience?
I beleave enlightenment is a personal growth experience and only valuable to the one experiencing it and others of his "disk" as Bruce calls it. Why would people give Money? Thats like giving money to the church. I don't get it. You cant buy enlightenment, or for that matter access to God. Although that seems to be the sales pitch of many cults and religions, including those selling the possibility of enlightenment, like how you mention in your post by the manager.

hawkeye wrote on Apr 4^th, 2010 at 1:50pm:

Seraphis1, How did Ramana Maharshi express this enlightenment?

You check this on wikipedia… it took many years for him to get to a point of being able to communicate… or interact with the world… and he more of less never left his “cave” and seemed to spend all of his time on his cot. (kind of like TMI students on a 7 day seminar… we spend most of our time in bed… LOL!!)


hawkeye wrote on Apr 4^th, 2010 at 1:50pm:

Do you have any idea about this experience?

As I said in my posting even New Ager’s don’t know a lot about the experience or what it is… but… in Bruce Moen’s ‘Curiousity’ cosmograph we have a good description of the modus operandi. It is simply the probe returning to and merging (Yoga) with the source… presumable this is your ‘goal’ … yes??? It is mine.


hawkeye wrote on Apr 4^th, 2010 at 1:50pm:

I beleave enlightenment is a personal growth experience and only valuable to the one experiencing it and others of his "disk" as Bruce calls it. Why would people give Money? Thats like giving money to the church. I don't get it. You cant buy enlightenment, or for that matter access to God. Although that seems to be the sales pitch of many cults and religions, including those selling the possibility of enlightenment, like how you mention in your post by the manager.

Yes that is so… it is a personal growth experience. In India it is a prized experience to make direct contact with one who is believed to have ‘become enlightened’… apparently an enterprising local promoter siezed upon the situation and collected money to intercede for pilgrims…

This recently happened in Nepal… a being sat rigid and in contemplation on the edge of the jungle… people came from all over to bask in the his radiance and there develop local promoters collecting money etc to get close to his presence…

Unfortunately, in America anyone displaying these symptoms would be diagnosed as suffering from Alzheimer, dementia or being catatonic..

I believe Ralph Waldo Emerson the American Philosopher attained enlightenment and was communing with God but, people around him thought he was suffering from dementia.. a great tragedy.

It is sad really.

S.

The importance of The Transcendental State as far as Earth consciousness and world peace in concerned... when, a being accomplished the correct raising of Kundalini... and this is the caveat... Kundalini flows into the World and changes the DNA structure of the overall planetary, as well as, individual structures... thus having a profound effect on the current spiritual evolution of the Planet... but, as I said earlier... the correct understanding of Kundalini and the correct awakening of its power is the key to the whole thing...

S.

Just for the sake of discussion (argument?), Seraphis,

I'm going to rebel abit over your use twice of the word 'correct.'

My experience of raising kundalini was semi-accidental and it took awhile for me to learn about what was happening. Much of what happened at first i would classify as negative experiences. Yet since the time of K's first awakening, the universe has treated me differently and more positively, regardless of my level of understanding of it.
I attribute that change to my involvement with K, even though it hasn't been the preferred or 'correct' means of involvement.
I don't mean to suggest that making one's own way is a good idea, just that one's surroundings do react positively to awakened K.

Bets

betson wrote on Apr 8^th, 2010 at 11:38pm:

Just for the sake of discussion (argument?), Seraphis, I'm going to rebel abit over your use twice of the word 'correct.' My experience of raising kundalini was semi-accidental and it took awhile for me to learn about what was happening. Much of what happened at first i would classify as negative experiences. Yet since the time of K's first awakening, the universe has treated me differently and more positively, regardless of my level of understanding of it. I attribute that change to my involvement with K, even though it hasn't been the preferred or 'correct' means of involvement. I don't mean to suggest that making one's own way is a good idea, just that one's surroundings do react positively to awakened K. Bets

Hi Bets: This is a semantics issue. I cannot tell you what the correct method or what or how to bring about the phenomena... I am inclined to regard it as a matter of 'Grace'. But, what I mean is this... there are many possible energy events which might look and feel like a Kundalini awakening... but, are another phenomena... In the case of Bruce Moen's Wahunka events... is this a Kundalini event of a sort of the beginning of the potential of making it possible to have a Kundalini event... I just don't know... but, Kundalini is a real force, it behaves in very specific ways and it produces in the environment very powerful effects both good and bad... depending on the use and where it is turned into depravity or savagery (Hitler for example)... it will destory you Hitler for example if abused... but, to have the most powerful effect it must be drawn up the spine into the brain... that I am sure of... and all seven layers of the Serpent must be awakened... this took almost 15 years to occur in the case of Dr. David Hawkins... but the effects in the world are enormous in relative terms... and the more beings who can pull this off will alter the Planetary Karma... dramatically...

S.

Autonomic and Sympathetic Nervous System

When I say ‘correct’ I mean I personally believe the fundamental literature on Kundalini is not far wrong in principle.

The reason I think there are some very subtle events that can mimic or seem like a Kundalini experience but may not be one…  is that preceding a Kundalini experience the published literature says that Kundalini sends two probes Id and Pingala out as a kind of advance scouting element… I suspect that Id and Pingala are the Etheric counterpart to the Autonomic and Sympathetic Nervous System of the physical nervous system… the question is how does the parasympathetic nervous system enter this picture… (there is also the Meridian (acupunture) energy point system... how does that all tie together and what effects are produced when triggered and what do they mean???... the literature says the Kundalini cannot be raised until Id and Pingala awakens the chakra as they ascend the shusumna… how this works I do not know for sure…

The complicating element in all of this is that apparently Kundalini does not have to be raise to achieve the Transcendental state… Dr. David Hawkins describes his Transcendental awakening as occurring at the end of a horrendous descent into despair… in which he reached Dante’s inferno… and more or less saw the sign… ‘Abandon Hope all ye who enter here..’ at the time he was an atheist/agnostic and when he reached that level of hopelessness he decided to reach out to God… saying, ‘if there is a God… please help me…’ at that moment he achieved the ‘Yoga’…

But it was several years after he struggled to return to function as a physical entity that one day he felt what he now knows is Kundalini rising and there are very specific accompanying physical and emotional sensations in the process… it also took another 15 years are so for the process to complete itself and Kundalini took up residence completely in the Crown Chakra (???)… but in the time miraculous things happened around him… when people were in distress… he felt Kundalini pour out of him in the direction of the supplication… and things changed in the environment… he himself did nothing… but, when it is awake you know it and when it is flowing you know it…

There is a lot to learn about it and in our case since we don’t have a bonified Enlightened Guru as a guide… we have to do it by Braille and hope we don’t trigger some real difficult problem in relation to Kundalini… it is a dangerous power if not properly handled.

S.

But there is an enlightened Guru to help those who seek the spiritual path. I'm sure there is more than one. I have been initiated by one and that's how I am able to meditate on the Sound Current. Up til then, I was not able to meditate. I was somewhat skeptical, but the practices of this spiritual teacher and his international outreach convinced me that I should be initiated. His organization accepts no money from non-initiates. He makes his own income from books and other sources, not initiate contributions! My husband has been part of the organization for 32 years, and never influenced me at all. I had to do all the searching and asking questions on my own.

If anyone is interested, PM and I will send a link to the organization, as I don't want to appear as though I am trolling for initiates, lol...

goobygirl wrote on Apr 9^th, 2010 at 2:39pm:

But there is an enlightened Guru to help those who seek the spiritual path. I'm sure there is more than one. I have been initiated by one and that's how I am able to meditate on the Sound Current. Up til then, I was not able to meditate. I was somewhat skeptical, but the practices of this spiritual teacher and his international outreach convinced me that I should be initiated. His organization accepts no money from non-initiates. He makes his own income from books and other sources, not initiate contributions! My husband has been part of the organization for 32 years, and never influenced me at all. I had to do all the searching and asking questions on my own. If anyone is interested, PM and I will send a link to the organization, as I don't want to appear as though I am trolling for initiates, lol...

Hi gooby: I misspoke there may be 6800 + enlightened beings on the planet right at this moment... the problem is who are they and do they work with students... yours apparently does I am glad you have a guru in whom you are satisfied. I am presently satisfied that working in the TMI system I have a viable system to reach my goals.

S.

Yes, you must do what works for you. I believe in what you say though, an enlightened being is the person to look to for initiation. After all, how can you learn much from someone who hasn't experienced different spiritual realms on his/her own. It's like real estate law, a spiritual teacher can only give you what they have. If they have only been to the astral region, how can you expect for them to know more or give you  more?

betson wrote on Apr 8^th, 2010 at 11:38pm:

Just for the sake of discussion (argument?), Seraphis, Bets

Hi Bets: Thank for opening the idea of a discussion on this issue.. I would not have realize what happened in Dr. Hawkins case.

You see the literature is very clear about the raising of Kundalini... if done improperly one opens oneself to great difficulties because Ida and Pingala when they open the chakras as they go into ascension... they confront the 'ego' structure (crucifixion)... the ego essential has to 'die' or be nuetralized otherwise it will usurp Kundalini power as in the Bilblical story of 'Saul' or the Hitlerian experience (but Hitler's spiritual handlers 'intented' for him to use the Kundalini power... I assume they thought they could control him but he assassinate both of them... interestingly enough the story goes he was told if he violated their rules he would live only thirteen years (??) and that is just what happened he succumbed exactly thirteen years to the day of their assassination... or so the story goes)... in Hawkins case he achieve 'transcendence' and then Kundalini just automatically ascended unobstructed because Hawkins was no longer in his body... he says it took many years of living in isolation and solitude before he was able to reestablish a link between his Homo Spiritus aspect and his physical counterpart... he says people would talk to his body and he wondered who they were addressing... things like that... so his Kundalini experience was quite different than ours is going to be...

S.

The Dilemna of the guru-less spiritual student!

Exerpted I/reality and subjectivity - Dr. David Hawkins

Q. What is the ‘structure’ of the spiritual domain?

A. Although it is without structure as commonly understood, it has characteristics (analogous to the ‘observables’ of Quantum Mechanics) that are quite discernible by their effects. While we can impose an intellectual structure on these qualities, they exist only in the mentation of the observer.

What this means is that the chakras don’t actually exist, they are a mentation a convenient construct to use as a common denominator in a system… in which ‘effects’ which themselves are illusion (but substantive at some level of consciousness of an unfolding student0 can be recognized as a waypoint in the unfoldment process…

In short the ‘effects’ are powerful, more powerful than the mentation that might surround them and attempt to identify them… thus Robert Monroe avoided the standard nomenclature of the established world of mysticism centuries old… and chose to create a new paradigm… hewing close to mainstream science to avoid polarization and niche - ing.

S.

I had a reason for bringing this subject up. I read an article on the internet that said the Palistinians were mounting a non-violent approach to establishing their group status... something they should have done years ago... a Gandhi like non-violent movement to establish a political state that attempted to live in peace with Israel... I thought attempting to raise the general consciousness through a small group putting positive energy into comprehending Transcendence might help tilt the balance... but... not much discussion ensued...

S.

I have been in contact for several years with a person that is fully enlightened or awake. He is 76 years old and lives in USA. His name is Melvyn Wartella.

This is his web page: http://www.friendsofreality.org

I have interacted for years with him by email and I have learned a lot. He has written several essays in his
website and is writing a book right now.

I have asked him several times about afterlife, but he never wanted to talk about that theme in depth.

This is what he said me once:

"The main reason I have not written an essay on the afterlife is I did not want the ego to feel too comfortable. As you know, most people seek the truth for the  wrong reasons. In the beginning it is just about always the ego that wants to find something that will make it feel secure, so they want the big Prize: Spiritual Awakening. When most people realize they will have to end their dream of self, they just drop out and go back to being entertained. But for those who realize the beauty of Awakening, they stay. But even then, most want to live forever, which in the beginning means the ego gets to keep playing its games."

But a few days ago I back to him with this theme again.
I asked him to read the afterlife model of Frank Kepple that is in this page: http://focus-4.es.tl

He did it and answered me. His response surprised me.

This was his answer:

Hello Sergio,

I read all of what Kepple has to say and I am in complete agreement with him. He has put it together in far more detail than I have tried because the afterlife is not my main focus. It is a valuable work he has done and he said it very clearly. I have read few people who seem to understand the nature of this creative consciousness we all share, but he is certainly one of them and the most clear.

When I had my main awakening, I entered all Focus areas and I realized it was all one process and that for the fully open mind, it all becomes very clear. As for Focus 4, I also saw the end of that stage and experienced it. I realized that at that stage we need do nothing, be nothing, create nothing, identify as nothing, absolute zero. Yet, it was pure bliss, Joy beyond anything one has ever experienced. It was a return to the very Heart of Being. We have nothing to lose by death. In fact when I was led to believe I only had about a year to live, I was joyful because I look forward to the adventure. But now doctors are saying I may live many more years. Which is okay too because as Kepple says, it is all already here.

Much of the physic experiences I have had have also made it clear that we are now in all Focus areas at the same time. I have also been saying for years that all things, events, experiences, etc.. are happening concurrently, at the same time. And that there is no time or space. It is good to see that someone else has seen this. So far, everything he says is right on. I don't try to put into words exactly how I see reality in my day to day world because so few would understand it. I can see that I am in different Focus areas from moment to moment. This mind is so flexible and flowing, that there seem to be no limits on what may be experienced and lived.

If people come to awaken to what I have been trying to show them, they will be much more able to see and understand Frank's work.

What he said about how going to Focus 4 completely changes us, is true. When I went into F4, there was a profound transformation and when I came back into the so-called normal state of being, I did understand things that few people have ever seen. But even after that, it to a long time, or so it seems, to come to understand as much as I do now.

Stay well and happy.

Melvyn

Hi Seraphis,
what you said about Dr. Hawkins caught my attention:
"he says people would talk to his body and he wondered who they were addressing"
Can you tell me if he wrote detailed about this experience, and if yes, where?

Hi Sergio,
what Wartello said about his reluctance to talk about the afterlife and the ego is very similar to the approach of Zen Buddhism. If someone is practicing Zazen to achieve enlightenment, it's not true Zazen, and this one will not reach enlightenment because this one is attached to this ambition.
   As well interesting his confirmation of Kepple's writings.

Spooky

spooky2 wrote on Apr 11^th, 2010 at 9:56pm:

Hi Seraphis, what you said about Dr. Hawkins caught my attention: "he says people would talk to his body and he wondered who they were addressing" Can you tell me if he wrote detailed about this experience, and if yes, where?

Hi spooky: his explanations are scattered through out his trilogy: Power vs force, The eye of the eye, and I/ reality and subjectivety... I can't really pinpoint the exact locations for you.



spooky2 wrote on Apr 11^th, 2010 at 9:56pm:

Hi Sergio, what Wartello said about his reluctance to talk about the afterlife and the ego is very similar to the approach of Zen Buddhism. If someone is practicing Zazen to achieve enlightenment, it's not true Zazen, and this one will not reach enlightenment because this one is attached to this ambition.    As well interesting his confirmation of Kepple's writings. Spooky

Hi Spooky: The problem with self-realization is that when you achieve it it is stunning and in the case of Ramana Maharishi who achieve it at 16 years old he was unable to speak for several years... Hawkins says he went in to isolation for a number of years before he was able to reestablish an ability to function in the 'world'... you are free you know... nothing is real except your relationship to God... the manifest/unmanifest...

S.

Seraphis1 wrote on Apr 11^th, 2010 at 10:10pm:

spooky2 wrote on Apr 11th, 2010 at 9:56pm: Hi Seraphis, what you said about Dr. Hawkins caught my attention: "he says people would talk to his body and he wondered who they were addressing" Can you tell me if he wrote detailed about this experience, and if yes, where? Hi spooky: his explanations are scattered through out his trilogy: Power vs force, The eye of the eye, and I/ reality and subjectivety... I can't really pinpoint the exact locations for you.

Hi spooky: I found this passage:

Q. After such a major event as sudden realization, why would the mystic choose to remain silent?

A. It is not a matter of choice but of capacity. There is really nothing that can be said. To verbalize that state is difficult and requires favorable circumstances as well as some innate propensity or karmic momentum. To communicate about this state requires reenergizing form, which requires a considerable expenditure of energy. It is much easier and more natural to merely remain silent. Silence also serves in a different, peaceful way. In (my - my insertion for clarity) this (meaning himself...) there were many years of silence before there arose the ability to speak of these things.

S.

I used to be into non-dual teachings, in particular the teachings of Ramana Maharshi. Eventually I found that non-dual teachings aren’t completely accurate and are incomplete.

One evening my spirit guidance showed me an image of Ramana Maharshi sitting at one half of a table, a lady sat at the other half. Ramana wore a business suit and this meant, he was too conservative with his approach, because he didn’t acknowledge the creative aspect of being, which was represented by the lady in the image I saw.  His image smiled at me, perhaps because some time after his body died, he found out about the creative aspect of being and found that there is much to like.

I believe it is a big mistake to conclude that some person was or is an enlightened person, as people do with Ramana, because when one does so, whether or not one is conscious of it, one presupposes that the viewpoints presented by said enlightened person can’t be questioned, because according to how one thinks, the viewpoints of an enlightened person couldn’t be wrong.

I’ve seen this happen with so many people. They won’t allow themselves to seriously question the viewpoints of a supposed enlightened person, and their ability to understand is limited accordingly. If you try to get such a person to see beyond the box that is created, it isn’t any different than talking to any other person who has been brainwashed in some way. In fact, it can be harder, because since they concluded that the viewpoints come from a person who is enlightened and therefore infallible, they consider the viewpoints with a root concept that determines what the rest of their mind will be able to believe and understand.

Many non-dualists make the mistake of contending that they don’t have to worry about the contents of their mind, because, after all, according to what they believe (with their mind), they aren’t their mind, so it doesn’t matter what the content of their mind is like.
The fact of the matter is that if a person doesn’t deal with his or her psychological issues while in this world, then he or she will have to do so afterwards, no matter what some supposed enlightened person has to say about being beyond mind.

If mind and the creative aspect being weren’t brought into action, then even basic yet profound qualities such as love, peace and divinity couldn’t be experienced and understood, because consciousness/being/awareness wouldn’t be differentiated enough for aspects of being with specific properties to exist. Nor would there be souls who could enjoy such properties. There are people who have experienced their soul existence in a manner where they know it is more than a mere illusion, despite what some nihilistic gurus have to say about individuality.

In fact, it is rather dualistic for a person to deny that souls exist while applying the rational that differentiation in a valid way doesn’t exist, because the creative aspect of being and mind come from no other place but source being, and therefore are just as real and valid as pure awareness. If the creative aspect of being didn’t bring qualities such as love into existence, there wouldn’t be anything for awareness to be aware of. What would be the point of a conscious being existing, if it didn’t have anything to be aware of? How fun would existence be, if there weren't other beings to share it with?

Seraphis:
Thanks for your effort.

Recoverer:
I think a good rule would be for everyone to be aware if one lives according to a concept, and nondualistic teachings are concepts just like any other, or if one lives according to profound own insight. The difference couldn't be more obvious. In the first case, one has to constantly invest effort to control oneself, if one is following the rules and is thinking in the "correct" way, in the second case you just know, without effort, and without depending on someone who tells you how far you have made it on the spiritual ladder.

Have a look at Melvyn Wartella's homepage. He had, so he wrote, an experience which sounds similar to what Parsons, Sylvester and Segal wrote about, but he seems quite engaged in environmental affairs and isn't one of that "doesn't matter" fraction. And he emphasizes not to follow teachings and through them think you're enlighted, while in reality you only follow someone else's thoughts, but don't live your own truth.

Spooky

Seraphis1 wrote on Apr 4^th, 2010 at 1:32pm:

The Transcendental State: Before I go into what it is let us look at an arbitrary statistic… it is believed that 1 in 10,000,000 people achieve enlightenment. The planet has a population of 6,812,200,000 which means that at this instant there are 6812 Self-realized beings on the planet. 6812 beings have successfully returned to the source… S.

As I get deeper into Hawkins’ “I / Reality and Subjectivity”, he goes into information that begins to give a fix on the numbers… working with 6812 Self-realized beings… Hawkins suggest that half chose not to live in the physical condition… thus we are working with 3406 potential helpers with ability to alter the course of history on the planet… he believes only a few will persist as teachers… it depends on karmic momentum… Hawkins is very valuable because he has one of the best educations anyone of this ilk can have relative to the job of communicating the what, when, how, where and why of it all…

This ability is very spotty in this world of the enlightened being… communicating in a way that is understandable is very difficult… much can sound like jibberish… but the real benefit is the effect on the overall consciousness of the planet as a whole… that is important… bringing others along the road to higher and higher levels of consciousness then is the catalyst that can bring about say peace in the middle east… it is a question of power vs force… spiritual power will win every time Gandhi, Martin Luther King, etc…

S.

"I can say this out of my own experience of enlightenment. Even to say that I had an enlightenment experience is misleading. There is no one to have such an experience, there is just reality seen clearly without the illusion of self in the way. Our language is dualistic and not very helpful in expressing that which is whole and complete. So please bear with me and keep in mind this problem of language."

Above is one thing Wardella says that I don't agree with. It is such a key point I don't know if it would serve much of a purpose for me to read more of what he has to say (I read some of his other words before I found the above). I've known of a number of gurus who say something similar, yet if you look at their lives they are quite self-centered and self serving. This shows that you don't have to be an egoless person to say such things.

Each of us is a unique soul, because source being can be utilized so many individual beings can be created.

This isn't my ego talking, it's my experience backed by a common sense that doesn't buy into the trap that I don't exist as an individual because some supposed enlightened people say there is no such thing as an individual.

Each of us has the ability to establish relationships, and when we do so, we are able to see that the creative aspect of being was utilized so many individual beings (souls) were created.

Such an understanding doesn't prevent us from sharing oneness with each other. Consider this experience, which I have shared in the past:

-One night I lay in bed and wondered what it means to be "one self." Suddenly I found myself walking down a city street (non-physically). I was very excited and happy because I understood that everything is one self. I walked up to strangers and hugged them and they hugged me back, because they too understood that everything is one self. It wasn't necessary for us to stop existing as unique individuals in order to understand that there is only one self. Multiplicity and oneness exist at the same time.

I hugged my mom and we didn't experience the oneness, because we had ideas about each other that prevented us from experiencing each other as the souls we are.

I hugged a lady I found physically attractive (she found me attractive) and we couldn't experience the oneness, because we viewed each other with sexual ideas.

So it isn't a matter of getting ourselves to believe that a multiplicity of souls don't exist. It is a matter of letting go of the ideas that prevent us from sharing love completely with others.

If souls didn't exist in a substantial way, there wouldn't be anyone who existed substantially enough so love could be shared.

It is not an illusion when two people share love with each other, regardless of what some supposed sophisticated philosopy has to say.

It is not egotistical to love the uniqueness of one's self and others. In fact, it is quite giving to acknowledge the preciousness of one's self and others.

People can get their minds to operate in all sorts of ways. They can even get them to create the impression that individuals don't exist. When this takes place it is done on an individual basis, not in mass. An individual has to exist substantially enough to have a mind that creates the impression that there is no one here. A person loses the ability to connect the dots and see the reality of his (or her) own existence.

We need to be careful about the kind of mental traps we create for ourselves.

Wartella, in his essays, makes a distinction between the person as a construct of the ego, and the individual, which is real, as an individual aspect of the whole. Actually, much of what you have written he wrote similarly.

Spooky

I've done a bit of thinking about this because I started to begin thinking of the ego as our enemy. I considered all the problems with people, my problems, and how so much can be directed at the ego for why we don't progress. I thought about my depression and constant longing for personal happiness which plagued me for so long and now seemed to become very weak since expanding my consciousness to the Afterlife, the meaning of life, etc.

I started to see that the ego had to be controlled. Then I thought that the better word was tamed. It appears that only by expanding the consciousness can we leash the ego and begin to control our fears, desires, and everything involving the self in negative ways.

I have changed my thoughts on allowing the ego to be weak and instead found an understanding that it must only be improved and brought to balance with the consciousness. The consciousness and the self consciousness should achieve harmony. Upon doing this we can find balance in the life for the individual and balance for the life outside of it.

The truth is that the self conscious is required. The ego is required. If you can't find peace within yourself, how else can you really know and practice it? The problem is when the self conscious works alone without the consciousness outside of it. Every individual making up the 5+ billion population lives a completely different reality and experience separated from the other. No individual is completely unique or "one."

This is not a new revelation, but it should be made aware. We are one in our influence of each other. We change the world and the events every single day from this influence. Every decision, every experience, and every move from each individual is the entire source for everything which takes place. There is a domino effect going on at all times. A single influence that you have on another individual completely changes their day and their events from if you had never encountered them, and that process is repeated from person to person to person.

This is how we are connected. This is how we create fate and this is how everything works in the physical world. This is why a mass expanse in consciousness is so incredibly important. Imagine if everyone understood this. Think of how impacting it would be on the world. It is part of our system, particularly as social beings.

We aren't meant to exist as a single being. It is through the collection of our individual consciousness; each working separately but with and for each other, that we enlighten the planet and enhance our lives.

I don't see the point in ever needing to exist separate from myself. If that is the will of the universe, then so be it. But it seems to me that only through the perfection of each individual soul can mass perfection occur. Once the self conscious and the conscious are in harmony, there will no longer be restrictions from the ego. Improvement will be sought in all aspects.

StoneColdTrue wrote on Apr 14^th, 2010 at 5:55am:

I started to see that the ego had to be controlled. Then I thought that the better word was tamed. It appears that only by expanding the consciousness can we leash the ego and begin to control our fears, desires, and everything involving the self in negative ways.

You mean like this:

http://mojo1000.com/storage/comics/07/ox-herding-zen.jpg

S.

That's good to hear. When people make contact with their soul, they find that they are more than the person they took themselves to be.



spooky2 wrote on Apr 13^th, 2010 at 10:59pm:

Wartella, in his essays, makes a distinction between the person as a construct of the ego, and the individual, which is real, as an individual aspect of the whole. Actually, much of what you have written he wrote similarly. Spooky

StoneColdTrue,
one thing is to notice that we're not alone and influencing all another. That's, as you said, nothing new, and we can bring this to our mind as often as we may, we might get not one step further.
  The other thing is when ego is dropped completely. This is a totally different thing.
  The former is just another formal concept, the other is a complete different life. I recommend reading Wartella.

Spooky

Yeah, I don't know. I don't think I'm really willing to understand existence without the self consciousness. Or would you separate that word from the ego? You know how the ego is when you're younger. It likes to ride around. But many, many a blow has been dealt to my ego through my life. It was never very big, but it became the center of attention last year and had to be dealt with.

I don't really know how close psychedelics/hallucinogens get you to a transcended state but my experience on shrooms was definitely one of those life changing moments. I know exactly what it is like to retain consciousness and be absolutely certain that I am dead. Maybe that doesn't make sense since I was alive...but I'm referring to the affect on the mind/ego/all of it. That's the most important thing I remember, was that I felt the shock and dread of an absolute belief that I had left my life and was where ever you go when you die. I felt heaven, I felt hell, I felt shear terror and I felt shear peace. Then once all the shock of it faded I came into this understanding that in this new world I was free from the restrictions of the physical world. Things became willed from my imagination. I never felt any sense of self awareness or any sense of time at all. I just was what I was and it was pretty nice to feel no restriction to anything. Then I tried to make sense of the power I felt by realizing myself to actually be the one and original being of God, that I had lived a human life and was now free of it, and upon realizing this figured I needed to continue my experience as a human. Not long after I woke up and was pretty blown away.

That and a second similar experience was the closest thing I got to having any fundamental understanding that I was much more than I had perceived throughout my life and there was more after death.

I was sent this yesterday as a message:

"Under the influences of hallucinogens, individuals transcend their primary identification with their bodies and experience ego-free states before the time of their actual physical demise, and return with a new perspective and profound acceptance of the life constant: change."

Couldn't really disagree with that, personally.

I would just like a better understanding of it without the drug use.

StoneColdTrue wrote on Apr 14^th, 2010 at 8:40pm:

I was sent this yesterday as a message: "Under the influences of hallucinogens, individuals transcend their primary identification with their bodies and experience ego-free states before the time of their actual physical demise, and return with a new perspective and profound acceptance of the life constant: change." Couldn't really disagree with that, personally. I would just like a better understanding of it without the drug use.

That is exactly what happens, the ego is put to sleep... but, you can't use drugs to transcend it won't work... you have to deal with the ego directly and consciously... in some way.

S.

Yes Stone Cold True, I remember your other posts about these experiences. The term "ego" is used differently. The really interesting thing is, at least for me, when people tell about their ego fell off, and they mean with "ego" all those self-attributations which is the process to become a person. In my view there is a basic locality sense which is the root of the person. It's just the "here-I" in an absolute sense, as babies have, and animals. Then there is the self-attributation process, and that's when we become a person, and not only that, we as well identify objects as not-me, and we have the distinction of inner world and outer world, and all those rules between them. And the interesting thing for me, as I've said, is, to see if it is possible to go behind this built self, which in this meaning Wartella calls "ego". I have some brief experiences which are similar to what he told of, and they were great. So I follow this trace.

Spooky

Yeah, I get that. I guess my understanding of the ego is really just the negative aspects of the self conscious. Disorders, conditions, fear, anger...everything involving the self which impairs the entire consciousness. Would that be accurate?

I've definitely felt physically the connection to everything. It feels like water. Like the very air you're walking around in is submerging you and you're just as comfortable as any fish. You still have your reality and perception, but theres not really any sense of "I" and this is what "I" want. The material world loses all value. Those movies we love. Video games. All possessions are just meaningless.

It's pretty much feeling and understanding all the lyrics to "Imagine." Lennon was definitely on to something.

Before a person ventures on the journey of letting go of his (or her) ego, he needs to seriously consider whether doing such a thing is possible, and what it would mean to do so.  When he tries to determine this, it would help if he didn’t assume that the people who claim to have lost their ego actually did so.

I’m not talking about overcoming a self-centered way of being because it is fine to do so. However, a person doesn’t do so by coming to the conclusion that he doesn’t exist as an individual. He does so by understanding the importance of living according to love and gaining freedom from the patterns of mind that prevent him from doing so.

A non-dualist might say, “just as you can’t find a particular part of your car that is your car because your car is a compilation of numerous parts, you can’t find a particular part of yourself that is you.”

Our experience shows that it is quite fine that a car is a compilation of numerous parts, because as long as one operates in a harmonious manner, it will take a person where he needs to go. The same is true with the various parts of ourselves. As long as they work in a harmonious manner (minus viewpoints that cause us to look [or not look ;)] at ourselves in a false way), we’ll get to enjoy the benefits mind and the creative aspect of being provide.

Actually, the car analogy isn’t complete, because unlike a car, source energy has been utilized so that numerous souls exist as distinct parcels of consciousness that are capable of being aware of how they make use of the creative aspect of being.

I found that when I got away from the approach of trying to overcome my so-called ego, and instead dealt with the spiritual growth factors I needed to deal with, my spiritual progress improved significantly.

Is it ironic or "telling" that some people make a big deal out of supposedly overcoming their ego eventhough they claim that such a thing doesn't exist.

Quote Recoverer:
"Is it ironic or "telling" that some people make a big deal out of supposedly overcoming their ego eventhough they claim that such a thing doesn't exist."

Just to be fair: Exactly this point is extensively described by Wartella, Sylvester, Parsons. You may believe them or not, but it is unfair to insinuate someone something silly, what has never been said in this meaning. We don't want to take on the rhetorical behaviour of politicians here, do we?

Spooky

Maybe its all in interpretation. Because I think consciousness still includes your self consciousness. Just the aspect of it that is no longer selfish. I would get pretty confused about all the talk of getting rid of the ego and started basically imagining consciousness without the self consciousness...which would basically mean the end of self and the existence of...well just whats outside of you. So the body dies...and the self dies...then all thats left is what? It kind of spun my head around because I couldn't find the logic.

But regardless I understand how it works because I've felt it, and its nothing to fear. The self doesn't leave, it just merges with the consciousness and its like many people have described...you're leaving behind a shell. BUT there is a part of you which does have to "die" in a sense and it does this pretty naturally. That's that part of people when they die they experience that terror of what has transpired. That I suppose could be called the ego. It's a weak aspect of the self that desires control. You can't transcend with that. You basically just have to be free and feel free, and you don't have to die to achieve that.

StoneColdTrue wrote on Apr 14^th, 2010 at 10:06pm:

Maybe its all in interpretation. Because I think consciousness still includes your self consciousness. Just the aspect of it that is no longer selfish. I would get pretty confused about all the talk of getting rid of the ego and started basically imagining consciousness without the self consciousness...which would basically mean the end of self and the existence of...well just whats outside of you. So the body dies...and the self dies...then all thats left is what? It kind of spun my head around because I couldn't find the logic. But regardless I understand how it works because I've felt it, and its nothing to fear. The self doesn't leave, it just merges with the consciousness and its like many people have described...you're leaving behind a shell. BUT there is a part of you which does have to "die" in a sense and it does this pretty naturally. That's that part of people when they die they experience that terror of what has transpired. That I suppose could be called the ego. It's a weak aspect of the self that desires control. You can't transcend with that. You basically just have to be free and feel free, and you don't have to die to achieve that.

Stone: Here is what I think I know about this after a lifetime of study... One of two things can happen and both depend on 'Grace' (which is a random factor)... almost at anytime you can spontaneously enter the Yoga... (read Eckhart Tolle's description of his experience in The Power of Now)... or you can merge consciously and with will into the 'Yoga' by serious work of the right kind...

If you spontaneously merge and you are 'detached' there is no coming back... if you are 'attached'... after some period of adjustment and orientation and urging from the social structure surrounding you will gradually return as in

http://mojo1000.com/storage/comics/07/ox-herding-zen.jpg

(read David Hawkins - I/Reality and subjectivity)

This is a subject that has to be experienced... there is no intellectual way to comprehend it... in this paradigm we do have a vast quantity of material existing by people who have done it in one way or another and communicated some aspect of the experience but, it is very inadequate to the reality.... you just have to do it and you will know...

S.

StoneColdTrue:

I suggest that you don't allow people who claim to be enlightened get in your way of determining what's true. You'll save yourself a lot of time and trouble if you don't buy into their ego loss business. I speak from years of experience, and I know of other people who have found the same.

Your existence as a unique soul is a beautiful gift, so treasure it. You don't have to see your so-called ego as non-existent to become less self-centered and more open to sharing love with others.

P.S. Just so there is no misunderstanding, I didn't mean to imply that you are self-centered. :) Much love and respect to the unique and precious soul you are.

Another P.S., Have you ever noticed that people who speak about their near death experiences don't speak of having to overcome their ego when they return to this world? They mainly speak of making a positive contribution and growing in love. One would think that if overcoming one's ego and becoming enlightened is what is required as self designated supposedly enlightened people claim, the light beings people meet during  NDEs would say so.

Be wary when people try to turn you on to their gurus and idols.

I have read a lot Advaita teachers, including Ramana Maharshi. I kow now that they do not fully understand the whole thing.

Here is an email that Melvyn Wartella sent me a time ago.
Perhaps it helps to understand this more clearly.


Hello Sergio.

Most people teaching advaita have little experience beyond their awakening. So what they say, and know, is very limited. My first awakening was what they refer to as enlightenment, but being a curious person by nature, I kept going because I wanted to fully understand why we humans were not aware of our oneness all the time. That questioning, plus the years I spent before awakening, led me to see and understand far more than most advaita teachers. Awakening is the opening of the door, but what is beyond the door is infinite.

Few, if any, advaita teachers really understand what the ego is and how it came about. If they understood more they would see that although there is no such thing as ego, or a separate being, there is individuality. The ego dream is just a misunderstanding. When one goes beyond it, there is still a person, a brain that is capable of understanding very clearly, and it can become in touch with a deeper reality that is Wisdom. When the mind is free, we can experience things that most people don't. One of those that has pointed out to me that consciousness can exist without the body  is when I have had experiences of traveling to places many miles away and seeing and being conscious of, what is taking place at that time. For people who have never had this experience, it seems impossible, but when you have it happen, there is no questioning its reality.

It goes a lot deeper than that and would take a book to just point out in an intellectual way, which would still leave the reader without knowing the fullness of it.

For lack of a better word for it, life is MIND. It is as flexible as thought and just as creative. When one starts to see this, you realize this is the fact of being. There is a seemingly solid reality, but if you understand, and even science knows this now, you see what a creative flow this creative MIND is. Then when you understand how the ego came about, the picture becomes very clear.

As the human brain evolved and the ego dream developed over a very long time, we were also creating a level of consciousness beyond what we can see or experience most of the time. The ego brought about this false sense of a separate being, when one awakens you realize that was just a dream put together by the mind. When people don't understand the real cause of ego, they just think there is nothing and no entity in any form, therefore there can not be a conscious life beyond the death of the body. I agree that there cannot be a separate being that goes on, just as there is none now.  But as the ego evolved,it was also creating a reality that went beyond it dream. This is a far more subtle state of being that few will see. If the mind still believes and acts out the ego dream, it will do so again. There is no soul traveling from life to life, but the force of habit will cause this illusion to reappear over and over until the mind awakens and sees what is going on. When that happens, it breaks the pattern and the mind is set free. It is not an ego, but it is a Life that has capacities, intelligence, etc. It is a creative pattern, a cause and effect within MIND.

Life is relationship. Every thing is creatively changing and being influenced by every thing else, but all those influences are the same being. We are a perspective in relationship. All the forces of this wonderful MIND have come together in such a way as to create what we are as consciousness, and that can only change, it cannot end.

In the book "The Tibetan Book Of the Dead", they say that many of the practices of Tibetan Buddhist are for training the mind to stay awake and aware even while the body sleeps. By doing so, they are preparing for death. In the older teaching of advaita, not the neo-advaita that is so popular today, they talked about how at death whatever one believes they see in the afterlife. They do not deny an afterlife, but they do point out it is a dream. For those who really believe they are this ego with all of its fears and desires, then it will come back to play out that mind game again and again. But by being conscious of what is going on and not wanting anything, one can live a conscious creative life. All of what I have written here is an overly simple view, but it points to far more than the words if one is open minded and free.

What you are cannot end, only change.

I hope this helps some. If I were you, I would pay little or no attention to advaita teachers. I have yet to read one of them that really understands. Some of them may be awake, but that is not enough, but I think most of those who say they are awake are just hiccup teachers that got a taste of reality, but not a full meal.



***

Hello Sergio:

Thank you for sharing your email.  I hope you don't mind, I  provided some comments in brackets below. Most of my comments are positive.


Most people teaching advaita have little experience beyond their awakening. So what they say, and know, is very limited. My first awakening was what they refer to as enlightenment, but being a curious person by nature, I kept going because I wanted to fully understand why we humans were not aware of our oneness all the time. That questioning, plus the years I spent before awakening, led me to see and understand far more than most advaita teachers. Awakening is the opening of the door, but what is beyond the door is infinite.

[About 30 years ago, while I was in the Army, as I walked about while on guard duty, I very clearly understood that who I am can't be defined and limited by my body based existence. Nevertheless, I never considered myself enlightened, and even today I have imperfections I need to work on.

I believe it is a mistake to make statements such as saying one is enligtened, because people make all kinds of associations with such a statement that are inaccurate.

I agree that most people who teach Advaita have little experience beyond their awakening (if they actually had one).

I agree it is important to not limit one's self to what Advaita teachers have to say. Many people do so. It's a shame.]

Few, if any, advaita teachers really understand what the ego is and how it came about. If they understood more they would see that although there is no such thing as ego, or a separate being, there is individuality. The ego dream is just a misunderstanding. When one goes beyond it, there is still a person, a brain that is capable of understanding very clearly, and it can become in touch with a deeper reality that is Wisdom. When the mind is free, we can experience things that most people don't. One of those that has pointed out to me that consciousness can exist without the body  is when I have had experiences of traveling to places many miles away and seeing and being conscious of, what is taking place at that time. For people who have never had this experience, it seems impossible, but when you have it happen, there is no questioning its reality.

[I agree with most of what he said above, except the part of there being no such thing as a seperate being. Perhaps this factor can be clarified by concluding that he is simply trying to say that when it comes right down to it we aren't seperate from each other despite our unique experiences.]

It goes a lot deeper than that and would take a book to just point out in an intellectual way, which would still leave the reader without knowing the fullness of it.

[I agree that it is hard to come to an understanding with a few words.]

[Below I inserted brackets within the paragraphs]
For lack of a better word for it, life is MIND. [Ok, this is part of the answer] It is as flexible as thought and just as creative. [ok] When one starts to see this, you realize this is the fact of being. [ok] There is a seemingly solid reality, but if you understand, and even science knows this now, you see what a creative flow this creative MIND is. [ok] Then when you understand how the ego came about, the picture becomes very clear. [I'm not clear what he means by this last sentence. Perhaps by ego he means when we get lost for a while and forget who we are spiritualy.]



As the human brain evolved and the ego dream developed over a very long time, we were also creating a level of consciousness beyond what we can see or experience most of the time. [I'm not certain what he means by this. Perhaps he means that we develop ourselves at levels beyond what we are conscious of.] The ego brought about this false sense of a separate being, when one awakens you realize that was just a dream put together by the mind. [I'm not certain to what extent he means this, I'll say this. Sometimes people get so caught up in their lives that they lose touch with how we are all parts of a larger self.]  When people don't understand the real cause of ego, they just think there is nothing and no entity in any form, therefore there can not be a conscious life beyond the death of the body. I agree that there cannot be a separate being that goes on , just as there is none now.  [I don't agree with this last statement, he says diffferently elsewhere. Perhaps it is a matter of what he means by separate. Going by some of the things he says, he doesn't mean it completely.  Many Advaita teachers mean it completely.] But as the ego evolved,it was also creating a reality that went beyond it dream. [This point was made earlier, same comment] This is a far more subtle state of being that few will see. If the mind still believes and acts out the ego dream, it will do so again. There is no soul traveling from life to life, but the force of habit will cause this illusion to reappear over and over until the mind awakens and sees what is going on.  When that happens, it breaks the pattern and the mind is set free. [Going by what I've been able to figure out eventually an incarnated self finds its way back to its higher self/disk, and another self is projected as needed. Therefore, I don't agree with what he just said.] It is not an ego, but it is a Life that has capacities, intelligence, etc. It is a creative pattern, a cause and effect within MIND. [Despite what he said earlier about reincarnation, this last part sounds okay.]

Life is relationship. Every thing is creatively changing and being influenced by every thing else, but all those influences are the same being. We are a perspective in relationship. All the forces of this wonderful MIND have come together in such a way as to create what we are as consciousness, and that can only change, it cannot end. [sounds good]

In the book "The Tibetan Book Of the Dead", they say that many of the practices of Tibetan Buddhist are for training the mind to stay awake and aware even while the body sleeps. By doing so, they are preparing for death. In the older teaching of advaita, not the neo-advaita that is so popular today, they talked about how at death whatever one believes they see in the afterlife. They do not deny an afterlife, but they do point out it is a dream. For those who really believe they are this ego with all of its fears and desires, then it will come back to play out that mind game again and again. [Same reincarnation comment as before, I don't get the impression that he has had an experience with his disk] But by being conscious of what is going on and not wanting anything, one can live a conscious creative life. All of what I have written here is an overly simple view, but it points to far more than the words if one is open minded and free.

What you are cannot end, only change. [ok]

I hope this helps some. If I were you, I would pay little or no attention to advaita teachers. [ok, ok, ok] I have yet to read one of them that really understands. [I agree] Some of them may be awake, but that is not enough, but I think most of those who say they are awake are just hiccup teachers that got a taste of reality, but not a full meal.  [There are a lot of people including Advaita teachers who have had spiritual experiences. Most people don't declare that they are some sort of spiritual master after having such an experience. For whatever reasons, Advaita teachers claim that they are, even though they have more to learn and more spiritual growth to go through. By choosing the path of being a guru of some sort, they bring their spiritual growth to an end. Many of them become quite corrupt.]

[I don't believe Wartella has it completely right, that's just how people including myself are. I believe it is fine to share information with others, just as long as we don't present ourselves as being infallible, by saying something such as we are enlightened.]

I took
Quote:

I agree that there cannot be a separate being that goes on, just as there is none now.

to mean that there is not a separate being from ourselves. I have read some interpretations of ego and such from people that to me meant they were saying "you die and your soul lives on" as if they were separate from each other. I think hes just debunking that theory, and saying that who you are now is not different from who you will be after death or transcendence (other than how you develop in life).

I felt like posting these lyrics would be appropriate because they were one of the first sources which really opened me up to an understanding of the soul concept.

Parabola by TOOL

We barely remember, who or what came before this precious moment.
We are choosing to be here, right now. Hold on, stay inside...
This holy reality, this holy experience. Choosing to be here in...

This body. This body holding me. Be my reminder here that I am not alone in
This body, this body holding me, feeling eternal-- all this pain is an illusion.

Alive... I...

In this holy reality, in this holy experience. Choosing to be here in...

This body. This body holding me. Be my reminder here that I am not alone in
This body, this body holding me, feeling eternal all this pain is an illusion.

Twirling 'round with this familiar parable.
Spinning, weaving 'round each new experience.
Recognize this as a holy gift and celebrate this
chance to be alive and breathing,
a chance to be alive and breathing.

This body holding me reminds me of my own mortality.
Embrace this moment. Remember; we are eternal,
all this pain is an illusion.

The lyrics to me seem to suggest that there is a "me" inside a body.

Spooky

I perceive the lyrics as the context referencing the soul's recognition of its existence within the physical body, and contained from its true form and yet accepting the containment as a gift and a unique experience with which to grow.

With a population of 390,000,000 if the stat holds up, there are 39 Transcendental beings in the United States half do not communicate or relate to the public that leaves about 40 communicating, but of that group only a few possibly 10 are coherent teachers… the question is who are they and where are they…

David Hawkins said he was walking in New York and he made mind contact with a fellow Transcendental being, they did not stop to talk or attempt to relate… they just passed each other with a mind acknowledgement… a knowing that they met.

S.

It seems you got to be enlightened before you find another enlightened one.

Spooky

This is an amazing stat... DH's research suggests that 5% of the population is capable of Pure Unconditional Love... something under 20,000,000 people can achieve the state if they chose to do so... that is astounding what an effect that would have on the USA if those who are capable could be induced to attempt to achieve this level of consciousness...

S.