Hello,

It's almost strange for me to be posting here because a lot has changed about me today and my view of the world, life, and death. First I want to give a little background to how I have come to my new thoughts.

I was raised as a Christian and confirmed as a Methodist. When I was about 13 years old (I'm 23 now) I decided to become an atheist based on my confusion with much of the hypocrisy I found in the religion and that I just generally did not agree with a lot of it. I spent several of the next years as a proclaimed atheist in a music scene with many other atheists and never really wondered much beyond that I hated the idea of "God" and more so enjoyed the rebellious idea of Satan, though didn't believe in either.

When I began college at 18 I believed that we did not have a creator, that everything was simply chaos, spirits did not exist, and that when we die we simply lose all consciousness like what we knew before our birth. Well if you do some research you will find that the town I go to school in (Montevallo, Alabama) has a bit of haunted history. I'll share my stories another time, but lets just say it wasn't long before I believed in ghosts. I began to adapt myself to more of an agnostic lifestyle with very open minded beliefs.

Within the past year and more so I've experienced increased depression and anxieties coupled with unfortunate incidents and just an overall unhappy lifestyle. This along with some very intense hallucinating on psychedelics has caused me to deeply ponder about the meaning of life and the afterlife (which I accepted must exist if spirits exist). I had no idea where to look for answers other than my own thoughts and reflections where I used all my past experiences to decide upon a philosophy that basically dealt with the soul as the direct path to the afterlife. That only your soul acts as judgment to your experience in the world beyond death.

So how very surprising to me when I decided to research more about the afterlife and came across this website and a few similar sites from psychics with interpretations of the afterlife very similar to the way I imagine it on my own (or possibly through spiritual help). So here I am, very open minded and eager to learn more so that when my time comes I'll be a few steps ahead, and can live my life here with less fear and better understanding to become a good human being.

I do not say anything here to judge...I have been through my own tests.  I do think that you can attain a greater self-knowledge and more control of your thoughts and actions without chemicals of any sort.  That said, the best thing you can do is to start reading... any and everything... something will start to resonate and you follow that line for awhile.  Something else will resonate or feel right to you and you follow that line.  At some point you will see a pattern start to emerge and that is the beginning of your truth. 

I was raised presbyterian and I got tired of hearing that all my classmates and neighbors were going to hell because they didn't believe like we did.  My requests for a christian level of tolerance as it was preached were met with derision and comments of "you're so naive"...

I never claimed atheism or agnosticism...I simply had issue with the organizations that claimed all religion.  So here I am, living my life among those who choose to do the same, and without "original sin", "guilt", or obligation for those acts which I never performed. 

Welcome to the site and please contribute some of your experiences and thoughts to those threads which inspire you.  I am relatively new here too, but it is a wonderful community over all and especially in comparison to alot of others you might have lit on. 

There's that divine intervention nudging you to seek answers...start by reading Robert Monroe's books, then read Moen's series.  I think you will find them very enlightening.  brian Weiss' books are excellent as well...read, read, read...one author will lead to another and once you get an actual taste of the afterlife (through meditation, astral projection, lucid dreaming, phasing, etc.), you will seek more answers for the rest of your life...it's an awesome ride!!  Welcome!! :-*

Thank you

I should also say I'm not a drug user. I experimented once with shrooms and found the experience so powerful that I don't have any desire to do it again. I had a very similar experience after smoking a legal blend of herbs, and it once again gave me many realizations and epiphanies to my existence so powerful that I feel I'm not really ready for all of that. As of right now I'm abstinent from pretty much everything.

Also, this website and this page in particular had a very interesting list of knowledge and I am now interested in all of the authors you mentioned as well as Victor Zammit. The psychic William Constantine also seems to have had communications that share some of the same knowledge on the true afterlife. Here's the information I found from Zammit http://www.trans4mind.com/spiritual/afterlife.html

Welcome, StoneColdTrue. I look forward to hearing your experiences, as time goes along. This can be a 'home away from home', if you find others you enjoy being with here.

Hi StoneColdTrue. I am not so sure your desire to learn from someone is best made at this site. If you are looking for others to form how you should believe, I say go elsewhere. If you are interested in finding out for yourself, making your own path,  then this might then fit the bill. Take a look around the site and then into your personal belief. Ask this simple question of yourself...Do you beleave you are you more than your phyical body? If the answer is yes, or you are open to that possibility...continue on. Pick up a Moen book and read it. I have a feeling that it will connect with you. I hope you find what you are looking for here.   

hawkeye wrote on Mar 11^th, 2010 at 1:48pm:

Hi StoneColdTrue. I am not so sure your desire to learn from someone is best made at this site. If you are looking for others to form how you should believe, I say go elsewhere. If you are interested in finding out for yourself, making your own path,  then this might then fit the bill. Take a look around the site and then into your personal belief. Ask this simple question of yourself...Do you beleave you are you more than your phyical body? If the answer is yes, or you are open to that possibility...continue on. Pick up a Moen book and read it. I have a feeling that it will connect with you. I hope you find what you are looking for here.

I completely agree...well put!

Rebecca wrote on Mar 11^th, 2010 at 8:06pm:

hawkeye wrote on Mar 11th, 2010 at 1:48pm: Hi StoneColdTrue. I am not so sure your desire to learn from someone is best made at this site. If you are looking for others to form how you should believe, I say go elsewhere. If you are interested in finding out for yourself, making your own path,  then this might then fit the bill. Take a look around the site and then into your personal belief. Ask this simple question of yourself...Do you beleave you are you more than your phyical body? If the answer is yes, or you are open to that possibility...continue on. Pick up a Moen book and read it. I have a feeling that it will connect with you. I hope you find what you are looking for here.    I completely agree...well put!

I second that.  What one finds here is a remarkable amount of candid, well expressed views of personal experiences and beliefs on various topics along with comments that spur thought and deeper personal analysis. 

[StoneCold:]  "I hated the idea of "God."
_________________________________

Suppose you were God's only prophet.  What would God be like if your ideal for God were true?  What if you could be convinced that your ideal matches the biblical God?  Or are you too close-minded to even consider this possibility?

"It wasn't long before I believed in ghosts. I began to adapt myself to more of an agnostic lifestyle with very open minded beliefs."
_____________________________

OK, so wbo created the afterlife system that empowers ghosts to exist, if there is no God?

"Only your soul acts as judgment to your experience in the world beyond death."
__________________________

Precisely the biblical teaching!  So what's your beef with the Christian view of the afterlife?  Do you even realize that the Bible provides the earliest literary example of the possibility of soul retrievals for hellish planes? 

"So here I am, very open minded and eager to learn more so that when my time comes."
__________________________________

Are you sincere about your open-mindedness?  Are you open to the possibility that you have fundamentally misunderstood the Bible and that all your misgivings about God could be answered to your intellectual satisfaction? 

"I was raised as a Christian and confirmed as a Methodist. When I was about 13 years old (I'm 23 now) I decided to become an atheist based on my confusion with much of the hypocrisy I found in the religion."
__________________________________

This tiresome charge is a mindless excuse to avoid the hard work of exploring more deeply the riches incredible compassion, and incredible paranomal experirences of Methodists.  Warren Buffet and Bill Gates go back and forth in their right to the status of America's wealthiest man.  After Katrina, Buffet was asked, "What is the most socially helpful organization in times of disaster?"  The interviewer was thinking the answer might be, FEMA, the Red Cross, or some other charitable organization.  But Buffet replied without hesitation, "The United Methodist Church."  My own church sponsors groups like Narcotics Anonymous, Alcoholics Anonymous, Habitat for Humanity, workshops for abuse problems, Blood Bank, weekly free meals for the poor, free meals for the elderly, a Love Fund for the poor (rental assistance, help with people with shut-off notices), staffing for a new youth center complete  with free meals for poor youth, work Sundays when, after church, we go out into the community and perform chores and repairs that the poor and elderly cannot do htemselves, and, most recently, tutoring/ mentoring programs for the poor.  That is just the tip of our iceberg.

Yes, we have hypocrites too because we strive for acceptance with pure unconditional love and that makes us a kind of spiritual hospital for people at all levels of spiritual development, including druggies like you used to be. We do all that and much, much more--and we are just a small church of about 120 each Sunday.   

Now compare that with the navel gazing New Age online groupies that never pool their resources to do diddly for the needy either as an online group or as individuals. 

Thanks Don, for the voice of christian charity...no judgment there, huh?

hawkeye wrote on Mar 11^th, 2010 at 1:48pm:

Hi StoneColdTrue. I am not so sure your desire to learn from someone is best made at this site. If you are looking for others to form how you should believe, I say go elsewhere. If you are interested in finding out for yourself, making your own path,  then this might then fit the bill. Take a look around the site and then into your personal belief. Ask this simple question of yourself...Do you beleave you are you more than your phyical body? If the answer is yes, or you are open to that possibility...continue on. Pick up a Moen book and read it. I have a feeling that it will connect with you. I hope you find what you are looking for here.

I believe there is more to this world than just chaos and science. I think just by looking deeply at nature and thinking about the universe will reveal that there is so much we do not know, and cannot prove in this life. I am certainly not asking for something to believe in, as I have completely developed my own thoughts and beliefs on my own in my search for truth and reason to our nature and existence. Like the rest of you, I wish only to share my knowledge and experiences and receive the insight of others and their experiences. Our communication is our best source, and learning from one another while keeping an open mind I believe is a substantial way of discovering and finding knowledge.



Berserk2 wrote on Mar 11^th, 2010 at 11:47pm:

[StoneCold:]  "I hated the idea of "God." _________________________________ Suppose you were God's only prophet.  What would God be like if your ideal for God were true?  What if you could be convinced that your ideal matches the biblical God?  Or are you too close-minded to even consider this possibility? Close-minded isn't exactly the term I would use for someone who has no declared religion. What makes you so certain your religion is above others? What if you were born in China? Would your Christian god be the same? IF our creator just happens to be the biblical God, then I will expect an eternity in Hell. I will not bow to that god, and I will not worship it. I share the "evil one's" view of that god, but honestly...I think the true creator is better than that god. That god is very human, very violent, and very selfish. If I can judge that god, then it is not so great. It wasn't long before I believed in ghosts. I began to adapt myself to more of an agnostic lifestyle with very open minded beliefs. _____________________________ OK, so wbo created the afterlife system that empowers ghosts to exist, if there is no God? A creator, but NOT your biblical god. Is that so hard to fathom? "Only your soul acts as judgment to your experience in the world beyond death." __________________________ Precisely the biblical teaching!  So what's your beef with the Christian view of the afterlife?  Do you even realize that the Bible provides the earliest literary example of the possibility of soul retrievals for hellish planes?  You're welcome to correct me if I'm wrong, but according to what I was always taught (and is continued upon me today) I have already sinned against your god for not believing in it or worshiping, or accepting that Jesus Christ was more than a great man. Despite that I live a good life and practice the morals and values of Christianity. Christianity is a religion of great teachings surrounded in hyperbole, metaphors, and myths developed from religions thousands of years before its inception. It is not literal knowledge of the universe or the creator, but acts better as guidelines to an enlightened soul. "So here I am, very open minded and eager to learn more so that when my time comes." __________________________________ Are you sincere about your open-mindedness?  Are you open to the possibility that you have fundamentally misunderstood the Bible and that all your misgivings about God could be answered to your intellectual satisfaction?  If I'm the close-minded one, how come I'm not trying to consider a single belief as the "true" way of life, belief, and knowledge? Come on now. You can't be open minded and have a declared religion. Being open minded is about accepting all possibilities. I think you're confused. "I was raised as a Christian and confirmed as a Methodist. When I was about 13 years old (I'm 23 now) I decided to become an atheist based on my confusion with much of the hypocrisy I found in the religion." __________________________________ This tiresome charge is a mindless excuse to avoid the hard work of exploring more deeply the riches incredible compassion, and incredible paranomal experirences of Methodists.  Warren Buffet and Bill Gates go back and forth in their right to the status of America's wealthiest man.  After Katrina, Buffet was asked, "What is the most socially helpful organization in times of disaster?"  The interviewer was thinking the answer might be, FEMA, the Red Cross, or some other charitable organization.  But Buffet replied without hesitation, "The United Methodist Church."  My own church sponsors groups like Narcotics Anonymous, Alcoholics Anonymous, Habitat for Humanity, workshops for abuse problems, Blood Bank, weekly free meals for the poor, free meals for the elderly, a Love Fund for the poor (rental assistance, help with people with shut-off notices), staffing for a new youth center complete  with free meals for poor youth, work Sundays when, after church, we go out into the community and perform chores and repairs that the poor and elderly cannot do htemselves, and, most recently, tutoring/ mentoring programs for the poor.  That is just the tip of our iceberg. Yes, we have hypocrites too because we strive for acceptance with pure unconditional love and that makes us a kind of spiritual hospital for people at all levels of spiritual development, including druggies like you used to be. We do all that and much, much more--and we are just a small church of about 120 each Sunday.    Now compare that with the navel gazing New Age online groupies that never pool their resources to do diddly for the needy either as an online group or as individuals.

Look, I'm glad Christianity works for you but it doesn't work for me. My belief is that all religions and what someone believes is exactly what they need to believe to live their life. There is no "best choice" or "I'm right and you're wrong." We're all right, so long as what we believe still allows us to be great human beings. You're just being silly. This is all connected to a great force, and it won't judge us in the end. We will judge ourselves.

[Stone Cold:]  "What if you were born in China? Would your Christian god be the same?"
__________________________________

Perhaps, because, despite religious persecution in China, sociologist project that there may now well be more evangelical Christians in China than in the USA.


"Only your soul acts as judgment to your experience in the world beyond death."
__________________________

Precisely the biblical teaching!  So what's your beef with the Christian view of the afterlife?  Do you even realize that the Bible provides the earliest literary example of the possibility of soul retrievals for hellish planes? 

You're welcome to correct me if I'm wrong, but according to what I was always taught (and is continued upon me today) I have already sinned against your god for not believing in it or worshiping, or accepting that Jesus Christ was more than a great man. Despite that I live a good life and practice the morals and values of Christianity. Christianity is a religion of great teachings surrounded in hyperbole, metaphors, and myths developed from religions thousands of years before its inception. It is not literal knowledge of the universe or the creator, but acts better as guidelines to an enlightened soul.

"So here I am, very open minded and eager to learn more so that when my time comes."
__________________________________

Are you sincere about your open-mindedness?  Are you open to the possibility that you have fundamentally misunderstood the Bible and that all your misgivings about God could be answered to your intellectual satisfaction? 



"I was raised as a Christian and confirmed as a Methodist. When I was about 13 years old (I'm 23 now) I decided to become an atheist based on my confusion with much of the hypocrisy I found in the religion."
__________________________________






"If I'm the close-minded one, how come I'm not trying to consider a single belief as the "true" way of life, belief, and knowledge?...My belief is that all religions and what someone believes is exactly what they need to believe to live their life."
_______________________________

But that itself is a belief that needs to be scrutinized.  I've taught comparative religion at the university level and have considered the claims of all the major religions.  I'll wager that you've barely scratched the surface of the religions you claim to be equal in validity.  Are you for real in your claim to be open-minded?  Does that include the possibillity that you have fundamentally misunderstood the Christian God and that, if you properly understood this, you might return to your Methodist roots in a new creative synthesis?  You are entitled to believe in what you wish, even a flat earth.  But don't pretend to be open-minded if you're not.

"This is all connected to a great force, and it won't judge us in the end. We will judge ourselves."
_______________________________________
Didn't you read my first post.  I said that this is precisely the New Testament teaching about God.  If you were truly open-minded, you would be open to rethinking the key issues that you don't understand.

"IF our creator just happens to be the biblical God, then I will expect an eternity in Hell."
____________________________________

This claim prove that you don't have a clue about the biblical God.  So I repeat one of the questions you avoided: Are you open-minded as you claim?  What if you could be convinced that you are sadly misinformed about the biblical God and that this God in fact reflects your best instincts about the nature of the true God?

"A creator, but NOT your biblical god. Is that so hard to fathom?"
______________________

Very hard!  Because your comments demonstrate that you have been properly introduced to neither the true biblical God nor the unprecedented spectacular modern miracles that confirm His truth.   

Stone Cold,

Welcome to the Board. For sanity's sake, please feel free to skip over Don, you will go round and round and never get anywhere until you bow at the altar of "his god." Truer words were never spoken.  :P

My open mindedness involves infinite possibilities my friend. The point is that I don't need a religion. I have my very own beliefs and thoughts and considerations which I am comfortable with. You act like I don't believe in "God." I never said I AM an atheist. I very much consider and respect the idea of a creator whether cognitive or in cognitive. What makes me more open minded than you, is I have no true label of that god. I don't have to give it an understanding or a name to know it is there. I don't have any fear that it will judge me, or that I HAVE to believe in it. So what difference does it really make? It will be whatever it is when I reach it.

As I said, I live my life very similarly to what is practiced in Christianity. Not perfectly of course. I am flawed like any other human, but I revel in the ideas of practicing compassion, having respect for life, and seeking knowledge. I don't live a whole lot differently than religious people only that I do not worship. I don't believe in worship. I believe in respect, and I believe in doing the right thing. If my soul is damned for believing these things, then so be it. I do not believe in Hell. I do not believe in Heaven. I believe that every soul no matter what sins or evil acts committed will have a chance at the greatest places of the afterlife...but it all depends upon their souls. If they cannot forgive themselves or learn what they must learn for ascension then they will remain in the lowest places. You have to desire to absolve yourself to find true redemption and earn your place in the universe.

So I still fail to see where I am close minded because I do not believe precisely what you believe. I don't see how it changes a single thing. I'm still going to the same place that you are, correct? Like I said. There is no right or wrong in someones beliefs if they can still obtain enlightenment, and you are a fool if you think otherwise

goobygirl wrote on Mar 12^th, 2010 at 1:46am:

Stone Cold, Welcome to the Board. For sanity's sake, please feel free to skip over Don, you will go round and round and never get anywhere until you bow at the altar of "his god." Truer words were never spoken.  :P

Yeah, I'm beginning to see that. He's "one of those." Haha. Oh well. It doesn't frustrate me. He's comfortable in his beliefs and I'm comfortable in mine. That is as far as it ever needs to go. Thanks for the welcome  :)

Welcome Stone Cold.  I hope you find information here that helps you in your quest for answers.  Actually, Don is not trying to convince you to go back to your former church.  Rather, he points out quite rightly, that the actual teachings of Jesus in the gospels are quite compatible with what you might already believe (and with much of "New Age" thought).  I am not a christian myself, and yet these things are easy to see.  He also brings up good ideas in pointing out that actually doing something for others such as helping the elderly or the poor, whether it is with a church or not, is "walking the walk," and bound to be rewarding.  So don't write Don off quite yet.  He is merely trying to get you to rethink your rejection of christianity.  Being open minded does not mean ascribing equal value to every way of life or every option.  In fact, when we do consider all options equal, then much of the time, nothing really matters.  Think about it. 

For me, proving to myself that I was more than my physical body was the deciding factor in accepting my spiritul nature.  It sounds like you are on a similar path.  If there is an afterlife, if we are pure consciousness or thought temporarily present in a physical body, then that changes everything.  I was able to convince myself of the power of my own thought to affect physical reality in ways unexplainable by science or physical law.  That did it for me. 

Many go through life convinced that there is nothing to come afterward.  They then say "hey, you only live once," and lie, cheat, steal......basically get away with whatever is possible, figuring that nothing matters.  Usually, this leads paradoxically to unhappiness, for what we send out into the universe tends to come back at us (we reap what we sow). 

One of the big insights for me was that our intent tends to manifest in our physical realities.  If based on love, we tend to grow and mature.  If our intent is based on selfish intersts or hate, we tend to entwine ourselves in negative karma, and be miserable.  We seem to have an ability to choose our thoughts and actions, once we are aware of this creative potential (sorry Spooky, but I still do believe in free will to make choices).  For me, this was a powerful realization.

I wish you the best, and again, welcome

Matthew

[Stone Cold:] "My open mindedness involves infinite possibilities my friend. The point is that I don't need a religion. I have my very own beliefs and thoughts and considerations which I am "comfortable" with."

Ah, by your own admission you are a comfort seeker and it is not comfrotable for you to "seek a religion."    But I am challenging you to be a truth seeker.  You cannot hide behind "infiinite possibilities."  That claim is a ploy to avoid the hard work of considering specific worldviews one at a time.  If you have no passion to clear up your misunderstandings about your background, you are NOT open-minded.  I have given you several opportunities to respond to my "suppose" or "what if" questions and you consistently evade them.  You have no idea what I have to offer.  No one will shoot you for your anti-religious bias and ignorance.  I wanted to determine whether you have the spiritual curiosity that makes it worthwhile to take your quest seriously.  I have decided that you do not.  So I will now leave you alone and won't bother with your posts. 

The approach I have taken with you has been very productive in the real world.  I find the honest and direct approach the best.  Some here deem t his judgmental, but in my view they don't know the difference between judgmentalism and tough love.  Reread what I said about the incredibly loving people in my church.  This is quite typical of Methodism.  Are you honestly telling me that you are part of a loving community that works together to accomplish all those acts of loving service on a regular basis?  What's with your hypocrisy charge?  This tiresome charge is a mindless excuse to avoid the hard work of exploring more deeply the riches incredible compassion, and incredible paranomal experirences of Methodists.  Warren Buffet and Bill Gates go back and forth in their right to the status of America's wealthiest man.  After Katrina, Buffet was asked, "What is the most socially helpful organization in times of disaster?"  The interviewer was thinking the answer might be, FEMA, the Red Cross, or some other charitable organization.  But Buffet replied without hesitation, "The United Methodist Church."  My own church sponsors groups like Narcotics Anonymous, Alcoholics Anonymous, Habitat for Humanity, workshops for abuse problems, Blood Bank, weekly free meals for the poor, free meals for the elderly, a Love Fund for the poor (rental assistance, help with people with shut-off notices), staffing for a new youth center complete  with free meals for poor youth, work Sundays when, after church, we go out into the community and perform chores and repairs that the poor and elderly cannot do htemselves, and, most recently, tutoring/ mentoring programs for the poor.  That is just the tip of our iceberg.

Yes, we have hypocrites too because we strive for acceptance with pure unconditional love and that makes us a kind of spiritual hospital for people at all levels of spiritual development, including druggies like you used to be. We do all that and much, much more--and we are just a small church of about 120 each Sunday.   

Don 

Don, I think you're missing the point. I find it pretty offensive for you to call me close minded or ignorant. You don't know enough about me or my life to judge me at all. Lets consider this: If our life is a journey beginning with life which continues in death, then I am still very young on this journey. Perhaps one day the truth will reveal itself to me, and perhaps I will find myself again in the arms of Christianity. A year or two ago I would have said that I will never be a Christian again for as long as I live. I cannot make that claim now. I do not know. But this is part of my journey. It isn't my place to accept a religion right now. I have no desire to do so. That is not ignorance. Or else I could tell you that you are ignorant for not combining the knowledge of history and truly seeking the truth to your own religion. I think a real testament to believing something would be to actually try and disprove your own belief. Seek every facet of information just to see how strong your faith holds, or will you allow your own ignorance/faith blind you from accepting something?

But you need not do any of that. Ignorance is bliss, is it not? And do you not feel bliss with your belief? I do not feel bliss, and I hope that I never feel bliss in this life. My desire as of right now is only knowledge of human existence and our purpose in life, as well as to enjoy the pleasures of this existence. You want me to explore more of Christianity like I never have before. I've been there, Don. Even during my time as an atheist I've explored it. I've sought it for truth, and then I sought enough to make me understand that it was not what I need. It's what YOU need. If I needed it, and I felt like I was missing that part of me...I would seek it like you are asking me to. I would seek an organized system. But here's the thing...I do not care. Call that ignorance. Maybe it is. But it's no more ignorant than you not considering Islam, Buddhism, or even The Church of Satan.

I do not wish to worship. I wish to only live. Perhaps I will worship in my death. If life is truly infinite and we exist for eternity, then I think there's plenty of time and that area is not important to me right now on this journey. I could look you in the eye right now and tell you honestly, that if I could judge myself I would surely judge myself to a higher astral plane. Not out of selfishness, but of understanding that I belong there. My sins are few, and my regrets are none. How many Christians could say the same?

And you just labeling me a "druggie" only shows me who the truly ignorant one is, and that you are much more judgmental than I. Turn the other cheek, Don. Practice what you preach.

DocM wrote on Mar 12^th, 2010 at 2:28am:

Welcome Stone Cold.  I hope you find information here that helps you in your quest for answers.  Actually, Don is not trying to convince you to go back to your former church.  Rather, he points out quite rightly, that the actual teachings of Jesus in the gospels are quite compatible with what you might already believe (and with much of "New Age" thought).  I am not a christian myself, and yet these things are easy to see.  He also brings up good ideas in pointing out that actually doing something for others such as helping the elderly or the poor, whether it is with a church or not, is "walking the walk," and bound to be rewarding.  So don't write Don off quite yet.  He is merely trying to get you to rethink your rejection of christianity.  Being open minded does not mean ascribing equal value to every way of life or every option.  In fact, when we do consider all options equal, then much of the time, nothing really matters.  Think about it.  For me, proving to myself that I was more than my physical body was the deciding factor in accepting my spiritul nature.  It sounds like you are on a similar path.  If there is an afterlife, if we are pure consciousness or thought temporarily present in a physical body, then that changes everything.  I was able to convince myself of the power of my own thought to affect physical reality in ways unexplainable by science or physical law.  That did it for me.  Many go through life convinced that there is nothing to come afterward.  They then say "hey, you only live once," and lie, cheat, steal......basically get away with whatever is possible, figuring that nothing matters.  Usually, this leads paradoxically to unhappiness, for what we send out into the universe tends to come back at us (we reap what we sow).  One of the big insights for me was that our intent tends to manifest in our physical realities.  If based on love, we tend to grow and mature.  If our intent is based on selfish intersts or hate, we tend to entwine ourselves in negative karma, and be miserable.  We seem to have an ability to choose our thoughts and actions, once we are aware of this creative potential (sorry Spooky, but I still do believe in free will to make choices).  For me, this was a powerful realization. I wish you the best, and again, welcome Matthew

Thank you, Matthew. Yes, it is a very powerful experience and profound to discover those things. I do not deny Jesus Christ. I do deny Christianity. Do I accept Jesus as God? No. But I do believe he was very connected, and incredibly influential. At the same time, many atrocities have been committed in his name, which I imagine he is very displeased of. He died for our sins, only to have brought even more and some of the worst sins in history simply to spread his beliefs. Not done by his hand, but of mans. Surely the all omnipotent would have foreseen this? It is not silly for me to accept our creator as either flawed or not as influential as people would believe. I believe after creation, it simply left it to chaos and nature. Its true influence awaits us only in life after death, and even then we must continue to grow and learn in order to reach it.

To me, it should not matter what we believe. It should not matter to God or Jesus or any power that I do not worship them. If that should matter to them, then they are flawed. If I do wrong, and I commit sin and I never absolve myself...then that will matter. But even so, it should be up to me to decide if I deserve to stand with them. The one and only judgment should come from ourselves. A great power surely has the right to judge, but true love is judgment free. And if God is love, then it has no judgment whatsoever.

For example, Don should have no desire to want me to be a christian. But for some reason he does. He wants me to believe as he believes, but for what reason? He still hasn't answered that to me. What is the purpose if I feel as content with where I am spiritually as he does? He continues to judge, and most Christians do. I speak only from observation and experience of course. Christians are very judgmental people, and many do get upset if you don't see the world as they do. I understand they think it's so amazing that everyone should share it. Bah, humbug. You know what the New Testament is? It's when people saw that the Old Testament made the religion look ridiculous and revised it so it would look better.

I think Jesus is a wonderful figure. I think he existed, and I think he was the most influential figure in all of history in great and despicable ways. I hope that he does await in the afterlife, and I will gladly shake his hand. I will follow his teachings of morality and the path to an enlightened soul, but I will not worship him until he is before me. Whatever is helping to guide my life knows that my soul is growing in great directions, as I know this as well.

Hi

I'd rather hear about the Montevallo ghosts. Maybe they hang out in the local Methodist church. Are they left over from the War Between the States?

Lucy

Lucy wrote on Mar 12^th, 2010 at 3:56am:

Hi I'd rather hear about the Montevallo ghosts. Maybe they hang out in the local Methodist church. Are they left over from the War Between the States? Lucy

Actually, yes. Some of them do pertain to the Civil War, some of them from an old plantation house located right on campus, and another was a student in the 1930s. One I believe may have been a hitchhiker. I'm not sure whether my stories should belong in another forum but i'll follow this up with my experiences and they can be moved if need be.

Whenever I tell these experiences to people, I can't help but to express that I had absolutely no belief whatsoever in the paranormal before my ignorance got the better of me. People can deny all day long in their comfortable and normal lives with everyday locations, but when you happen to actually reside in haunted places eventually your mind will open.

I was in my first semester at the university and 19 years old. Ironically my first experiences occurred in October around Halloween. This was simply because it's the best time to go exploring. You can simply google information about the various ghosts on campus, as it is built very close to Civil War battlegrounds. My friends and I attended a "Ghost Walk" where a woman guided a tour around campus and informed everyone on the hauntings of each location. Three stories stood out, and two of which affected me more or less.

The first is of Reynolds Hall, which is right on campus and is now both a professor office building and includes a stage for theater dramas. The history is that it was once a hospital in which the North invaded and murdered the injured South soldiers during the Civil War. Reynolds was a colonel who left the hospital to defend a separate attack when the hospital was invaded. He returned to the massacre and it is said his ghost now resides in the building, vowing it to never leave it again. Many people have reported footsteps late at night and doors opening and closing late at night when they work, as well as Reynold's portrait being found in odd places.

So one night myself and a group of friends were walking around campus and decided to look around the building. It was about 12 am and we found one single door on the side that was still unlocked. So of course we went in. We didn't get but halfway down the hall to the right of the door when we heard footsteps directly above us, and the weighted creaking of the floor. We freaked and rushed out of that place pretty quick. I looked up towards the window of the area where we would have heard the footsteps and the lights were off. The building has a vending machine behind it which we visited and the University Police showed up simply to check the doors. I asked them if everyone was out of the building and they said yes, they were just double checking everything was locked up.

Not a real harsh story, but it was my first time with something weird. It didn't make me a believer.

I'll tell the other ones tomorrow. It's late and it creeps me out to remember them haha.

Mmkay, now to continue.

One of the most well known Montevallo ghost stories is of Condie Cunningham who is said to haunt the main female dormitory called Main Hall. The story is that during her stay in the dorms in the 1930s, she had a cooking accident in her dorm and set herself on fire. She ran screaming down the hall and opened window, which we know what happens there. It's said she did not actually die in the dorm but in the infirmary down the street. Either way ever since there have been multiple reports of hearing a crying girl in the bathrooms and and screams through the halls. Even stranger is that upon her dorm room door in the wood engravings appeared a strange image of a face inflamed. Every time they would replace the door, the image would reappear. Eventually they replaced it with a steel door and kept the last wooden door locked away to bring out during Halloween. I got a chance to see it and it's pretty creepy. It doesn't look like anything that could be man made. I don't, you can decide. http://www.scaryforkids.com/pics/girl-on-fire-02.jpg

The most haunted house is King House, which is an old plantation home that rests directly on campus. I pass it all the time. It belonged to Edmund King and his family in the 1800s. Their cemetary is about 80-100 yards from the house. It's small and has about 17 headstones ranging from babies, children, to adults. Apparently King and some of the family members still haunt the house, and there have also been sightings from guests and ghost hunters of a dark spirit there.

So my first semester we passed the house a lot and would look around it. One night we actually witnessed ghost hunters investigating it for a radio show. Another night we found the back door to be unlocked. My buddy peeked inside but we were skittish about going in. A few nights later we had done some paranormal research and learned that when dealing with spirits it is always best to ask permission to photograph or enter a site. So myself and 4 or 5 others went to the King cemetary hoping to get pictures of orbs. We asked permission and began shooting. Then we walked up to King House. We checked the front door and it was locked. We then asked if we could come inside. I felt like it was all pretty silly. We checked the side door and then the back door. Both locked. We came back to the front and just started talking with each other when one of my buddies goes "Holy ****." He put his hand on the front door and opened it. I was pretty shocked because I checked the door myself and it did not budge before.

I was a bit hesitant to enter but the rest wanted to press on. Two couples walked by and witnessed us and wanted to join in. So we all went inside and I started taking pictures of the rooms. The couples were loud and began to annoy us, and then BOOM! it sounded like someone had picked a recliner up and dropped it on the floor upstairs. The couples left and we stayed. I was getting a little freaked and did not want to go upstairs so I gave my camera to a braver friend and he took some pictures of the upstairs rooms. After that we left and went back to our dorms.

My roommate/best friend had been with me the whole time and went to bed shortly after our return, but I stayed up and played a video game. It was about 3 am that I finally decided to go to sleep. I laid down in my bed and started to think slightly about the King House visit when I felt like my comforter was being pulled off of me from the bottom. I wrapped it around my feet and snugged tightly into my comforter thinking it was probably my imagination. Then how convenient at that point in time it sounded like the guy who lived above me had dropped something heavy on the ceiling directly above my head. I wasn't sure it was maybe just how much it scared me, but my body went completely tense and numb for about 1 second. It was a completely body spasm. I started yelling for my roommate and told him what happened. He believed me and was a little freaked out by it, and suddenly saw the cord by the blinds slap against the window without any physical involvement. We kept the TV on for the rest of the night.

The next day and many days after that we heard this really strange and random "Click" noise in separate areas of the room. Some research led us to finding that "clicking" is apparently involved in paranormal activity. It eventually went away, but there wasn't a single night in that dorm I kept the TV off.

Other very strange occurrences in my dormitory building is that multiple people including myself would hear what sounded like a marble being rolled across the floor above them. I would hear it but never thought anything of it until more and more people would make the same report. In my second semester I moved to the top floor with a new roommate. The only floor above me was the attic and several times day or night I would hear the marble roll as well as what sounded like furniture being moved around. There were extra beds up there, but every time we would hear the moving we would go to the attic and find no one there.

Now for what really got to me.

Everything I've mentioned before this I thought to be very strange, but I didn't let it bother me enough to make any conclusions. So one night I was hanging out at two friends apartment which is right off campus and down the street in walking distance from my dorm. It was me, a buddy of mine, the girl who lived there, and her sister. We were outside on the balcony of the apartment when we saw the other roommate driving into the parking lot. I saw in the passenger side of her a car a person wearing white, and I immediately thought it had to be one of our other friends who constantly wore this white/grey hoodie. The other three also wondered if it was him. So the girl parks and gets out of the car and I asked her "Is that Allan with you?" She giggled and said "What?" My other buddy asked her "Who are you with?" The other two girls were also eager, as she had parked at an angle where we couldn't really see the passenger side as well. The girl just laughed some more and said "What are you talking about? I'm by myself. I just came from my grand father's house."

At this point I started getting really confused and the other three people were just like "No. Someone was in your car." I ran down to the car and looked all around it. Nothing. No one. I saw someone in her car and so did three other people. It really threw me for a loop. I didn't find out until recently that apparently there are stories of a hitchhiker ghost in Montevallo. I couldn't find any information on that beyond a word of mouth.  I could not deny what I saw, and neither could the other people.

The last strange sighting I had was last Summer a girl and I were driving on some back roads heading to a friend's lake house. I was driving and involved in conversation with her when I noticed someone walking on the side of the road up ahead. My first thought was "Who the hell would be walking out here?" as there weren't any houses around. Just as my car got close enough to where I could see the person better, nothing was there. For a fraction of second I thought maybe I was mistaken until the girl yelled "WHAT WAS THAT!?" She had seen exactly what I saw and chills ran through both of us. I could see the expression on her face was struggling to understand it. We both agreed that we saw someone walking on the road and then they vanished.

So that's it. That's all my paranormal experiences, and these experiences I could find no explanations for. The combination of all of them opened my mind to new concepts on life and death and I can no longer deny that there is much more to this world than we understand.

When I was teaching at a New York university, I soon discovered that security guards thought Plassmann Hall was haunted.  Actually, some of the windows were poorly sealed and this created occasional drafts which caused classroom doors to open and slam.  A colleague of mine taught a course on Parapsychology that the students nicknamed "Spooks."  Al (the professor) explained tohis class that a former student ("George") had committed suicide and was now haunting the  building.  Al insisted that a front row desk be left vacant for George in his otherwise packed-out classroom of 65.  Every so often, a draft would waft through, the door would slam, and the girls would scream.  Al dryly explained that this was George's way of hinting that Al was bored and wanted him to add new material to his course.

One night late (11:30 PM?), I was alone in Plassman Hall in my downstairs office.  I heard the jingle of a security guard's keys ascending the stairs to the 3rd floor.  So I left my office and opened the basement elevator.  I let out a blood-curdling WOOOHAHAHA!, realizing that the guard might imagine the sound coming from the 3rd floor.   Then I scampered back to my office and immersed myself in my books. 

A few minutes later, a terrified guard knocked on my door and asked hysterically, "Did you hear that?"  "What?"  I innocently replied. "That ghostly scream!"  "No, I didn't.  You probably heard a wind current in the hall."  "No, it was a scream," he replied, a look of terror now on his face, "and there's no one else in the building!"  :o :-/ The guard then ran to the security office to confirm the belief of his fellow guards that Plassmann really is haunted.  I sat there giggling to myself, proud that I had mantained my sleepy stone face during our conversation and excited that I had promoted the legend of our haunted class building.   ::)  But yes, I do believe there are ghosts, juist not in Plassmann Hall!

Don

Hello Stone Cold True:

Even if a person found inspiration in the Bible, I believe it would be better for he (or she) to interpret it in his own way, rather than somebody else's way.

I believe a day will come when the majority of the human race will reach the point where it won't have to follow some guru or somebody's religious interprations in order to be in touch with what is true. Instead they'll open their hearts and minds to common sense and divine inspiration.

There are way too many followers in this world who don't think for themselves.

In the end, any system of thought that claims to be the ultimate system of thought, ends up being stifling to some extent.

Because none of us has all of the answers, none of us should act like we do.

Because of dreams and other messages I received, I believe this world is going to go through major changes in the future. If we want the future world to succeed rather than fail as it has, we're going to need to let go of the old limiting parameters such as ineffective political leaders, greedy corporate rulemongers, and judgmental and controlling religious institutions (such as, homosexuality is a sin, or bow to me because I'm a true guru).

I have a lot of love and respect for Jesus, but I doubt that he had it in mind to start a religion that you better follow according to somebody else's parameters, or else.

Practicing something on the surface isn't the same thing as living it in your heart.
 

I would always welcome an earnest seeker. I used to be very analytical and left-brained, and spent many years in clinical medicine, where there is no room for personal opinions (though even that changed a bit over time). I went to Monroe Institute, and then read all of Bruce [Moen's] books, and then did a workshop with Bruce a few years ago. I cannot tell you when exactly, but I came to have no doubt whatsoever in an afterlife, and having a "God" experience, but not like in church. If you are serious about finding out, then read Bruce's books and practice. It is easy, and the hardest part is overcoming your fears about it. There are many other books to read, too, about out of body experiences and techniques (Robert Monroe, Bruce, Rosie MacKnight, Thomas Campbell). I personally liked "Mastering Astral Projection" by Robert Bruce and Brian Mercer (comes with a CD with "Brain Wave Generator" and all the frequencies on the disc), which is a 3 month daily self-teach program. You can also download it at for FREE www.bwgen.com, as well as all the settings for the book frequency exercises.

And most important, use intention. And practice. I was a newbie when I started posting here, and wish I knew what you will when I was 23 years old. Have fun, and remember there is nothing that can happen to you; you will not get lost or separated, get possesed or captured by the Devil (unless that nonsense is in your belief system in the first place).

Have fun. And welcome.

Thomas

"Surely the all omnipotent would have foreseen this? It is not silly for me to accept our creator as either flawed or not as influential as people would believe."
_______________________________________

Now you are presuming to resolve the classic philosophical problem of evil.  In fact, you know neither the biblical solution to this problem nor modern philosophical perspectives on it which would consider your above comments nonsense.  An open-minded seeker would relish the chance to clear up misunderstandings about this problem.

"To me, it should not matter what we believe."
___________________________________

Beliefs matter very much.  Nazi beliefs led to the exermination of 6 million Jews.
]
"It should not matter to God or Jesus or any power that I do not worship them. If that should matter to them, then they are flawed.  And if God is love, then it has no judgment whatsoever."
_____________________________________

Have you even considered the possibility that Love is by nature reciprocal and requires another free being? 
So if Love is a supreme value in our universe, then the Source of love may wish it to be directed in gratitude towards Him/It, so that it can radiate through us to others.  On this view, God by definition wants to be worshiped (= loved).

"He wants me to believe as he believes, but for what reason? He still hasn't answered that to me."
___________________________________
No, but I don't want you to be just another mindless New Age Ghetto member spouting cliches you can't defend.  I want you to admit that you are not open-minded.  An open-minded seeker would want to discover if he were clueless about the true meaning of his past biblical perspectives.  You don't want to know and, frankly, I don't want to waste my time explaining it to you. For all I care, you can be a New Age cultist, but please, be one that would like to discover if he were mistaken through critical thinking and direct experience.

"What is the purpose if I feel as content with where I am spiritually as he does?"
_____________________________
The purpose is to inspire you to change from a contentent seeker to a truth seeker.  Before embracing a new position, an open-minded truth seeker wants to know if he has a proper grasp of his established position before he explores other alternatives.

"You know what the New Testament is? It's when people saw that the Old Testament made the religion look ridiculous and revised it so it would look better."
_____________________________________
Now you pontificate about a subject you know nothing about.  An intelligent person respects established scholarship, interacts with it, and uses this as a foundation for new thinking.

Don

Once again, Don...fill us with the holy spirit and help us to see your christian charity.  Together with your intentional misleading of a security guard, I have difficulty seeing the light of Christ in your actions or comments.

Again: the gift of prophecy from myself is revealed. Did I not advise Stone Cold to ignore Don or to be pulled into an ever evolving cyclone of pure crap? Yes, yes, I did. :) Don only wants to convert you to his way of thinking. If you do not believe or parrot his beliefs, he denigrates you and tells you you are not analyzing things properly and that you are some New Age Ghetto trash. Such christian love, bask in all its glory! NOT!

I truly feel for the people is supposedly "leading."

Recoverer, I like what you said, and I agree with the spirit of it. I would like to take this small section (portion quoted below in box) so that I can point out an area of thought I'm having difficulty with. People have a book called the Bible, and they can pick it up and base their lives on it. So, whether they take instruction on it from someone else, or whether they use the book as their own personal reference book, they are basing their beliefs on one source. They are calling this the 'highest' source.

Now, I have known certain people who have taken this book and interpreted it exactly as they liked. They have studied and studied, compared the text to other great literature all over the world, compared spiritual texts to each other to find what appeared as common values, which support the 'found' Biblical values.

So, you would think such people would be living 'better' lives than one who had a 'lesser' understanding of the Bible.

But that is not the case. No matter how much I watch people cling to their 'knowledge' as a spiritual guide, I find, very often, chaotic thinking. False assumptions are made all the time, by such a person, in my opinion. What's worse, the Biblical 'strength' (or other religious comfort found by anyone, from any source of religious 'materials') that a person might 'cling to' and build up for themselves (after all, they are following the 'ultimate' authority) -- is a source of Pride and Accomplishment and False Humility in the name of the Pursuit of Wisdom and Godliness. I put those in capitals, because then you can see the 'swagger' that can result in the gait of anyone who Too Greatly respects their own 'Knowledge' or the source of their 'Knowledge'.

I think that Don serves a good purpose here, when he is not distracting or amusing others by his 'props' (the repetitive 'insulting' characterization of others here as, uhm, clueless), by reminding us that our own interpretations can be False, no matter where we are standing.

So, I don't know who to believe anymore, those who tell us to dig in there and study for ourselves and find our own inspiration and the rest 'be damned' -- or to believe those who have studied for most of their lives, and are now convinced that they have the 'discernment' to make decisions 'for' others, or to be more 'forceful' in their stance.

Of course, I am talking about one person, which is why my grammar is messed up here, and I keep going back and forth with they, them, etc. But, don't assume it's Don. There are many many many people out there who are 'interpreting' all kinds of things erroneously, and every single one of us, including me, should open our eyes and understand that, no matter how Certain we are, we need to open up our minds a little more.

No harm, in doing that. No harm, in each of us debating with the 'facts' we have, and respecting each other while we do it.

When people spend time debating the 'spiritual quality' of the other -- that's demeaning any way you look at it. Not one of us has the wisdom and knowledge to look at someone else and think we can 'judge' their spiritual level of 'attainment' (not me, although I do often open my big mouth and try to do it), and I think it's a very, very small step from doing that to making a major mistake.

Everyone does this, now and then, as I see it. What do you think?

Well, my 2 cents, anyway. Thanks for the listen.


recoverer wrote on Mar 12^th, 2010 at 6:42pm:

Hello Stone Cold True: Even if a person found inspiration in the Bible, I believe it would be better for he (or she) to interpret it in his own way, rather than somebody else's way. I believe a day will come when the majority of the human race will reach the point where it won't have to follow some guru or somebody's religious interprations in order to be in touch with what is true. Instead they'll open their hearts and minds to common sense and divine inspiration.

I've just finished reading ' The Historical Figure of Jesus' by E.P Saunders (described on the back cover by Professor John B. Meier as 'America's most distinguished scholar in the field of Jesus-research today'). One of the things that strikes me about the book is the general tone of moderation in the language. For example from the preface ' my own view is that studying the gospels is extremely hard work. I sympathise with the scholars who despaired of recovering much good evidence about Jesus. I also think, however, that the work pays off in modest ways that are to be expected in the study of ancient history.' This moderate tone permeates the whole book. He presents a case where there are things we know about Jesus with very good confidence, other things less confidently and others are best guesses.

The point I am making is that here we have a chap who has devoted his academic life to studying Jesus (with some success according to his contempories) and he is modest in his claims in what we can know historically as Jesus 'facts'. For me gaps in that knowledge are filled by believer's faith. In itself that is neither good nor bad. But surely the believer must understand that that faith is personal to himself and himself only.Whether others choose to share that faith is their choice.

Dave

I've heard of the book, Dave. What do you think is the most compelling of his Jesus facts? Does the moderate language seem so because there are so few facts? Would you consider Saunders a believer of the highest order or more of a true historian. I'm just curious about his approach.

Hi Beau,

Ed Saunders identifies himself as a ' liberal, modern, secularized Protestant' who tries to keep his religious convictions out of his scholarship. Nothing I got from the book persuaded me that was'nt the case; he treats Jesus as a historical figure with relative impartiality I feel.

Some of his knowns include: Jesus was born near the time of the death of Herod the Great, he spent his early years in Nazareth, he was baptized by John the Baptist, he called disciples,he preached 'the kingdom of God, he created a disturbance in the Temple, he was arrested and interrogated by Jewish authority (esp. high priest), he was executed on the orders of Pontius Pilate. After those and a few more knowns things begin to get hazier and academic dialogue and debate enters the fray...Saunders recognises that the writers of the gospels were not impartial documenters of history in the modern sense but constructed and shaped their writings from individual pericopes (units of gospel material) that were available to them into a narrative or story they wished to tell.

Dave

Hi Stone Cold True

Interesting stories. I could see why one would want to sleep with the TV on.

Thomas listed all the best places to start reading. Have you ever read any of these books? Being a university there is even a slight chance Monroe's first book might be in the library where you are. (If you are still a student, you might appreciate that! Once when I was at Chapel Hill, I wandered in the stacks and read every thing I could find on certain topics, such as reincarnation. They even had some old stuff by Frederick Myers, which is probably difficult to find elsewhere, but that's another story.)

I would be interested to hear your response to reading any of the things Thomas lists.

You didn't mention any of the Civil War ghosts. Maybe they don't interest you. There are supposed to be hauntings at Shiloh. And one interesting story is recounted in a book called Someone Else's Yesterday . It's about a man in CT who sort of discovers a past life as a Civil War officer. It's kind of dry but the account of the actual experience he had is pretty interesting.

Hi SCT

Nothing baout ghosts or religion this time.
Just that synchronicity makes me laugh.

So I had to run up to the grocery store. I had the radio on, and I often put it on public radio. I think they changed their schedule. I don't often listen at this time, but the program they played was one I know I listened to on a different day at a different time. So I was surprised to hear it today.

It is called "This American Life" and today's story list, stories about saving the day, included a story from Montevallo University. Now, before your post, I never heard of the place. Today I'm hearing a story about something called The Lifeboat Debate. (they forgot to mention the ghosts). It was pretty interesting, funny, and thoughtful.

At the end of the show the host, Ira Glass, pointed out that you could find the stories on-line in case you missed one because you went ot the grocery store or whatever. Here's the link. I thought the snake story was pretty good; I missed the middle one.

As I said, synchronicity makes me laugh.

http://www.thisamericanlife.org/

I searched "ghosts" on the site and came up with this list, which link I hope works. I have to check it later.
http://www.thisamericanlife.org/search?keys=ghosts

but the stories are always good so this ought to be entertaining.

heisenberg,

It's E. P. Sanders, not "Saunders."   To many, Sanders is militantly anti-Christian and could not get along with his colleagues at MacMasters University.  I doubt that he believes in an afterlife.  But he is well respected among acedamics and has made important original contributions to the field.  So despite my disagreements with Sanders, you are certainly reading someone with expertise.  John B. Meier is even better, very well respected.  Though I would prefer that you read N. T. Wright instead, I applaud you for expanding your reading outside the New Age Ghetto and reading mainstream scholarship.   I have no complaints about intellectual adversaries whose reading is well grounded in interdisciplinary fields.  I am merely advocating that posters have respectable grounds for what they believe.  Though they tend to be skeptical, both Sanders and Meier can certainly give you that grounding. 

Don

It's E. P. Sanders, not "Saunders Correction noted (doh!). I do try and get out of the ghetto once in a while....

Lucy,

The only ghost I MAY have encountered from the Civil War would have been whatever we heard walking around in Reynold's Hall. I'm sure with enough looking around people could find new hauntings.

Kind of silly actually is after my roommate and I's experience in the dorm, we heard what sounded very similar to guns being shot at about 4-5 AM on many mornings. We decided the sound was similar to that of musket fire and wondered about it being the connection to the Civil War. Eventually we finally found out it was the trash truck emptying the dumpters from across campus which was just loud enough to create a sort of echo which made it sound like multiple guns firing.

The thing about that Civil War officer is interesting to me. The idea of reincarnation is pretty deep. Of having lived a life before this one but only having small ideas of it because you have forgotten. It kind of makes sense in a way...but so many new lives come to this world I think there is more to it than just recycling of life. Maybe there's a combination. Maybe we'll die and receive the options of remaining in eternity or returning to earth with an all new life and will only have our prior memories upon new death. So much to think about and consider. But I'm closed minded like Don said so maybe I should just believe in a single religion instead of thinking and questioning things.

[Stone Cold:] "But I'm closed minded like Don said"
How refreshing to see you admit it.   ;D  So are many people.  Now we can begin the hard work of honest and open inquiry.

[Stone Cold:] "So maybe I should just believe in a single religion instead of thinking and questioning things."
______________________
Yes, but I hate to break this to you: the Bible insists that you provisionally reject standard views to achieve breakthroughs in knowledge. So I guess you'll have to choose a religion other than Christianity.

"Only simpletons believe everything they are told!  The prudent carefully consider their steps...Intelligent people are always open to new ideas.  In fact, they look for them (Proverbs 14:15; 18:15--New Living Translation)."

In fact, Catholic adepts have achieved both the best attested bilocation in history and the clearest and most convincing EVP (Electronic Voice Phenomena).  The Pope eagerly listened to the clear voice of a priest's father on a tape of Gregorian Chant unexpectedly expressing answers to the priest's questions.  The Pope then urged further EVP research on the grounds that God may well use EVPs to prove the existence of the afterlife to a skeptical world.

The best book to read on parapsychological issues like ghosts and reincarnation is Jesuit John Heaney's: "The Sacred and the Psychic: Parapsychology and Christian Theology."  Though a Catholic, Heaney makes the best case for reincarnation.  Heaney can do this because, contrary to New Age screed,  the Catholic church never officially rejected reincarnation!  The second best book on parapsychology is David Fontana's, "Is There an Afterlife?   A  Comprehensive Overview of the Evidence."   His work is more comprehensive than Heaney's, but not as discerning.

Don

I don't know if you will be able to find it or not but "Life In The World Unseen" by Anthony Borgia, (Citadel Press 52/58) and More About Life In The World Unseen, (Odhams Press Limited 1956) are extremely valuable in any lessons or understanding  regarding the afterlifes. Complete explorations of the afterlife including past lives and the different Hells, Heavens, and what Bob Monroe ended up naming the Focus Levels. I read it at TMI. Couldn't take my nose out of and came close to missing exercises because it hit home so closely. Both are at least as good or in some parts even might be better than explanations of Bobs or Bruces.  ( I see this book has been reprinted a number of times and is for sale on the internet )

"The United Methodist Church."  My own church http://afterlife-knowledge.com/yabbfiles/Templates/Forum/default/right.gifsponsors groups like Narcotics Anonymous, Alcoholics Anonymous, Habitat for Humanity, workshops for abuse problems, Blood Bank, weekly free meals for the poor, free meals for the elderly, a Love Fund for the poor" ...Says Don!........Bravo!!!!


Hey!! I'm at present a Secretary of an Alcoholics Anonymous Group!!! No!!!(Don)! to your statement that your Methodist church is sponsoring  A.A!  A.A. is Totally Independent of all Religious, Political, or Commercial institutions or Religious Traditions!!! We rent premises from the various religious traditions/churches, and also organizations to conduct our meetings! This also includes the Masonic Lodge halls, and all the other Chrisitian churches/halls in all the states, and overseas countries! Plus non-religious public meetings halls and private homes if necessary!

A.A. is non Christian. Other A.A. Countries use their own available rented premises or any other place they deem fit to conduct meetings. A.A.  is non-religious, but they suggest you make personal contact with your God-Creator  of your own understanding to aid your sobriety!....Google up A.A.!? N.A. copies the exact same program as A.A! Want to take me on regarding A.A.,  Don? You Religious Nerd!!!            

Carl,

Your addictive disorder helps explain your relentless irrational viciousness, but you know better.  You know very well what I meant. Our church has opened its arms to alcoholic members and encouraged them to start local AA meetings.  We have done the same for Narcotics Anonymous. 

Don

B2, sorry for the late response, I haven't visited the internet for a few days. I'm certain it missed me. :)

Sometimes I can be too pushy, which can be a mistake, because unless somebody for some curious reason believes he (or she) has the right to decide for somebody else's soul, he shouldn't be so forceful with his viewpoint.

If a person is sincere about finding his way, he will do so. Ironically, people who are overly forceful with their viewpoints and claim their way is the only and/or ultimate way, are amongst the people who slow down sincere people.

Sorry about not responding to your post in a more precise way, I wrote what came to mind.


wrote on Mar 13^th, 2010 at 5:28am:

Recoverer, I like what you said, and I agree with the spirit of it. I would like to take this small section (portion quoted below in box) so that I can point out an area of thought I'm having difficulty with. People have a book called the Bible, and they can pick it up and base their lives on it. So, whether they take instruction on it from someone else, or whether they use the book as their own personal reference book, they are basing their beliefs on one source. They are calling this the 'highest' source. Now, I have known certain people who have taken this book and interpreted it exactly as they liked. They have studied and studied, compared the text to other great literature all over the world, compared spiritual texts to each other to find what appeared as common values, which support the 'found' Biblical values. So, you would think such people would be living 'better' lives than one who had a 'lesser' understanding of the Bible. But that is not the case. No matter how much I watch people cling to their 'knowledge' as a spiritual guide, I find, very often, chaotic thinking. False assumptions are made all the time, by such a person, in my opinion. What's worse, the Biblical 'strength' (or other religious comfort found by anyone, from any source of religious 'materials') that a person might 'cling to' and build up for themselves (after all, they are following the 'ultimate' authority) -- is a source of Pride and Accomplishment and False Humility in the name of the Pursuit of Wisdom and Godliness. I put those in capitals, because then you can see the 'swagger' that can result in the gait of anyone who Too Greatly respects their own 'Knowledge' or the source of their 'Knowledge'. I think that Don serves a good purpose here, when he is not distracting or amusing others by his 'props' (the repetitive 'insulting' characterization of others here as, uhm, clueless), by reminding us that our own interpretations can be False, no matter where we are standing. So, I don't know who to believe anymore, those who tell us to dig in there and study for ourselves and find our own inspiration and the rest 'be damned' -- or to believe those who have studied for most of their lives, and are now convinced that they have the 'discernment' to make decisions 'for' others, or to be more 'forceful' in their stance. Of course, I am talking about one person, which is why my grammar is messed up here, and I keep going back and forth with they, them, etc. But, don't assume it's Don. There are many many many people out there who are 'interpreting' all kinds of things erroneously, and every single one of us, including me, should open our eyes and understand that, no matter how Certain we are, we need to open up our minds a little more. No harm, in doing that. No harm, in each of us debating with the 'facts' we have, and respecting each other while we do it. When people spend time debating the 'spiritual quality' of the other -- that's demeaning any way you look at it. Not one of us has the wisdom and knowledge to look at someone else and think we can 'judge' their spiritual level of 'attainment' (not me, although I do often open my big mouth and try to do it), and I think it's a very, very small step from doing that to making a major mistake. Everyone does this, now and then, as I see it. What do you think? Well, my 2 cents, anyway. Thanks for the listen. recoverer wrote on Mar 12th, 2010 at 6:42pm: Hello Stone Cold True: Even if a person found inspiration in the Bible, I believe it would be better for he (or she) to interpret it in his own way, rather than somebody else's way. I believe a day will come when the majority of the human race will reach the point where it won't have to follow some guru or somebody's religious interprations in order to be in touch with what is true. Instead they'll open their hearts and minds to common sense and divine inspiration.

I truly do not believe that there is  a GOD that anyone will face that will judge him or her. I believe it is the GOD within yourself that will review your life. Under those circumstances, there is no "right" or "wrong" just a slowing down of spiritual progress, or even speeding up by experiencing what we call "wrong" so you don't do that anymore.

What I seriously am wondering about is why Don is here? There is a lot of New Age Ghetto crap we talk about...I am sure Don will find what he believes he will find on the other side simply because of the strength of his belief and based on how the afterlife supposedly works: you find what you believe in.

However, I truly disagree that any GOD could look down at us pitiful humans and damn any of us to an eternal hell for not believing exactly as Don does. It's too limiting and too unlikely.  Too many billions of lives have come and gone on this planet, many before Jesus, and many since then, who had no contact with Christianity. It just doesn't make sense.

So Don, why are you on this board other than to tell people their thinking is sloppy and wrong? What about Moen's material brings you here?  Just plain curious.

Maybe he is the deceiver.

I welcome Don's contributions to the board.  If you read him closely, he never states or implies that if you don't believe as he does, you are going to a hell.  In fact, I have seen him acknowledge time and again that hells are created by a person's own mind after death.  So Gooby and Stone, that part is just way out of line.

As to his use of the term "New Age ghetto," I personally don't take offense, but I understand how it comes off.  He is merely seeking the truth in a scientific manner - even if it is not meant to be found that way. 

Most of the core beliefs he has shared, however, are in sync with people on this board.  Ideas such as thought creating reality, the law of karma, the law of attraction, and other "new age" concepts have been presented as understood "givens" in his discussions.  As I said in a previous post, I believe that Don himself is on the verg of a spiritual breakthrough.  If only he got rid of the stray disparaging remarks, you would all see it.

I see Don as a bit of a prankster, a passionate advocate for debate and the truth, who may say things that tick you off, but for the most part does it to stimulate thought and conversation, not to condemn you. 

Matthew

Don doesn't tick me off. If he is seeking science to explain his spiritual beliefs, he may be waiting a long, long, time.

I never said Don specifically said people were going to hell. In general, that's what's Christianity espouses, "get saved" or go to hell.

That's bull that he does things to just stimulate thought and conversation...when you label people and put their ideas down...ideas that I believe are truly totally unknowable on this side for 100% sure...then that is condemning people.

But, at any rate, I don't really care about that, I want to know why and what Don finds here....that is so interesting to him.... and he if doesn't answer, that's cool too, I was just curious.

StoneColdTrue wrote on Mar 14^th, 2010 at 8:11pm:

Maybe he is the deceiver.

You Know People! Sometimes I wonder? He is relentless in the pursuit of what? Lets all of us become a Christian! And then we will argue and debate all the bible crap out of us, among all the various christian intellectual university theologians, and other authors or church uniformed pretenders or "Grand Poobahs". This will continue for ever and ever! Because all the christian traditions will never agree, interpret, their version of the christian bible with others! Or share their amassed monetary or real estate fortune!  Just like it is today! Maybe they will even start a war among themselves, as in the the last 2000 years! Sounds logical! The winner/victor gets to write the books and become the "Big Boss"! Just like the Sunni and Shi'ites branches of Islam/Muslims still fight, physically, and idealistically over the correct interpretation of the Koran! It all started when  the prophet Mohammed died, and his family/relatives split up, each seeking his fortune and followers for themselves! Sounds familiar folks? Sincerely. Carl.            

Don doesn't bother me either. I've met plenty of Dons. Don's idea of closed mindedness is only limited to Christianity. My idea of closed mindedness is the entire concept of limitation. It is not so much that I have denounced Christianity as being the true knowledge. I have not said "It is not true." I have only said I wish not to consider it. And for that matter I wish not to consider any religion. I do not believe our lives are meant to be spent in worship and prayer. I believe our life here is to live, grow, and learn. I have no fear of being judged for that.

I respect Don and his beliefs. I think his faith is instrumental to him and how he lives his life. I think it guides him and makes him feel so much better that he feels everyone must experience it. Perhaps I am indeed closed minded to that faith as I was once open minded to it and have now decided to gain my knowledge in other avenues. Is it not enough to have accepted the teachings of Christ and lived accordingly? Is it enough to have also accepted the wise teachings of other religions? Gnosticism offers many wise concepts to belief. Buddhism. Even the Church of Satan (I do not accept this religion as I also believe it can also teach the soul to false enlightenment) I have found to offer wise teachings. My belief is that they are all connected. Each teaching different values and life lessons to enlighten the soul. So no. I will absolutely not limit myself to only Christianity. I will not limit myself period, for that I know is the true path to closing the mind. People can preach as much as they want. I know my path and I'm content with it.

I will admit that I feel faith in no matter what you choose, is incredibly important. I have learned that atheists are indeed some of the most cynical and afraid people I have come across. Which makes sense, as accepting that life is meaningless and there is no purpose to your existence is truly depressing and warrants only negativity. I know that this is not the way. I would appreciate if Don could simply see that I have good intentions in my beliefs and agree to disagree. But if this is his campaign he will find he is wasting his time. I'm only 23 anyway and I feel I have learned much in my time and will not stop until my last day here. By definition I suppose I should be labeled an agnostic, which is only the acceptance and interest in all concepts of religion but the inability to become completely convinced in a single one. All of it is knowledge which should be considered and adapted to becoming a better human being.

StoneColdTruth, I think your on the right path. One of discovery and filled with questions. Those who have closed their minds to other possibilities are the ones in hell. Don hasn't done that. He is still seeking answers. I might consider him a arrogant, pompous ass, but he sure not a write off. I only hope he continues on his search for answers and I know at some point he will find them. As long as he keeps his mind open and continues his search, it leaves him with the possibility of learning truth, and perhaps with him not ending up stuck in one of Christianities many belief system territories.

It's interesting how this thread has changed its topic to Don. To me that simply shows the impact and the importance of his being a part of this board so I'll put my 2 cents in as well.

Don is probably the most widely read person on this board. Not only that but his research has been done with a highly critical, discerning mind and an open honest heart.  Everyone here could learn much if they were to seek out their knowledge in such manner.

I, too, not only welcome Don's posts, but seek them out. He has a great deal to teach if people could just get past their preconceptions and assumptions. Try reading Don's posts with an open heart and mind to see if he doesn't have something for you to learn. We are always learning from each other and we always have something each of us can teach another. Bottom line is that it is always about our interactions with each other.

If you are honest you know a new age ghetto mentality exists, just as a Christian ghetto mentality exists... and so on. In every organized system this type of mentality exists... in religions, in governments, in business, and on and on.  If we don't like this mentality, then we must on an individual level rise above it. If you're not part of the solution, you are a part of the problem and no matter what the venue it is always about people interacting with other people and their intent behind these interactions. 

Kathy

I'll repeat what I was saying so people can skip my paragraphs.

Do as Don says, but do not limit yourself to Christianity. Seek the knowledge and enlightenment from all outlets. That is all I am saying. I am not saying "Don't listen to that religion, or that one." I am saying do not limit yourself. That's all. Each and every single one of them has something you can learn.

Interesting story straying from all this other stuff...

My parents told me something last night I thought was odd they would only tell me then. They have some friends in North Carolina named Richard and Nancy. Several months ago Richard went to play a game of scrabble with his friends and ended up having a hear attack and passing away. Nancy had a very rough time with it. When Richard was alive they had an oven that seemed to never work.

So one day Nancy was crying in the kitchen and all of a sudden her oven began to flash the preheat light despite that it wasn't on. She told people it would happen when she was upset and eventually she was able to say things like "Richard if that is you, blink three times." The light would blink. This was just what she would tell people.

Well one weekend my parents were visiting they went over to Nancy's home to say hello and check in on her. Now my Dad is a pretty non superstitious person. He has never really believed any of my ghost stories and just closes his mind to all of those ideas. Well Nancy had a leaked area in her bedroom ceiling which had formed this strange image. Looking at the image it made a depiction of a man with a beard and matched exactly how Richard looked. My dad and my stepmom saw it and told me it was undeniably a formation of a man that looked very much like Richard. My dad thought it was really creepy and wanted to leave the house.

They had also noticed the blinking light on the oven. Before they left my stepmom said "Ok, Richard. We're leaving, but if you're there then you will blink right.....NOW" She pointed to the oven and the preheat light came on. At that point my dad got even more freaked out and they left.

They told me this last night and I thought it was a great story. My dad never believes in that kind of thing or has ever had such an experience so it was awesome hearing him talk to me about something he doesn't understand with no explanation.

"If you are honest you know a new age ghetto mentality exists, just as a Christian ghetto mentality exists..."

Good point that Kathy (Lights of Love) made above.   

Just in case there is any misunderstanding, my posts weren't directed towards Don. I respect and love him, even if I disagree with him at times. I appreciate his passion.

Regarding the so called new age ghetto, I love new age people and believe they serve an important purpose in this world, but goodness there is a lot of new age information that is nonsense, and a person who isn't taken in by it might wonder about the discrimination of the people who are taken in by it.

So the moral of the story is, "don't be taken in by the bogus sources of information (if you can call it that) that abound, and Don rocks in his own way."