With the tragedy of Haiti and of course the countless other tragedies around the world caused by natural disasters showing how evil God is? If Gods in charge and all things are a result of his desires or wishes then why is he/she causing such turmoil? Why would he allow the Germans to kill all those Jews during the second world war? Or what happined in Rwanda. Or priests raping children? Earthquakes, volcanoes, tidal waves, disease, hunger, Hiroshima and Nagasaki.....The list just goes on and on. If this is the God of the Christian bible,.... who wants to believe in that? Killing, murder, molestation, pestilence, earthquakes,...what kind of a God would allow these sort of things? Some will say it is a test. Or a test of faith. HUH? Get a grip. Can it be said that God was on the side of the West when they bombed the hell out of German cities and killed a million people. Or in Japan? Who's side was God on? Was the other side evil? Was God on the side of Cassy when he killed mothers and babies in Vietnam? Tell me why would "God" allow all of this to happen? It confuses the hell out of me. This good and righteous God spoken of and believed in by so many. Why does he allow such evil? (I personally see more of the true meening of God's love in one Extreme Home Makeover show.) I am honestly confused as to why anyone would believe in a God that allows these things to happen yet millions stand around with their heads in the ground not seeming to notice. Religion is just to messed up. Loving people do good. I am not so sure about this God so many of you speak so highly of, especially if hes so connected to all this evil.   

Sorry you feel that.you should not blame all this on god,because he is not respondable for what is happing in the world.the devil is the king of this place.he wants us to believe that god is doing all these horable things,so we will blame god for it.so people can hate god.when Jesus comes,he will put an end to all this.all these that were harmed,are fine and with god.George

Hawkeye,

You are creating a straw man that overlooks what the Bible actually teaches about the forces of natural chaos over which God normally exercises no control.  "All are victims of time and chance (Ecclesiastes 9:11)."  Such texts can be multiplied.  The implication of all such texts is that God micromanages neither the universe nor humans; He wants both to operate independently of His will.  Every Christian-oriented solution to the problem of evil needs to begin its reflections from this starting point. 

Don

Hawkeye,

true. The so-called "theodicee" is a problem of Christian theology which isn't solvable. It is connected to the image one has of "God". If your image of God is in any way human-like, you have the theodicee-problem. Some of the Gnostic scripture reflects the need of an explanation for all that pain.

The only conclusion I can find is that "God" isn't a person-like entity. Therefore, "good" and "evil" can't be attributes for this God. No attributes are fitting for this God.


Don:

You are aware that a God which has withdrawn from "his" creation cannot be petitioned with prayers? And that such a God is in any way pointless, as here "time" is ruling, meaning cause and effect?

Spooky

spooky2 wrote on Jan 26^th, 2010 at 10:05pm:

Hawkeye, true. The so-called "theodicee" is a problem of Christian theology which isn't solvable. It is connected to the image one has of "God". If your image of God is in any way human-like, you have the theodicee-problem. Some of the Gnostic scripture reflects the need of an explanation for all that pain. The only conclusion I can find is that "God" isn't a person-like entity. Therefore, "good" and "evil" can't be attributes for this God. No attributes are fitting for this God. Don: You are aware that a God which has withdrawn from "his" creation cannot be petitioned with prayers? And that such a God is in any way pointless, as here "time" is ruling, meaning cause and effect? Spooky

I agree with all of this.

[Spooky:] "You are aware that a God which has withdrawn from "his" creation cannot be petitioned with prayers? And that such a God is in any way pointless, as here "time" is ruling, meaning cause and effect?"

On the contrary!  It is precisely because God generally does not micromanage the universe that petitionary prayer is so important.  Prayer uttered in genuine faith releases divine creative power to salvage something wonderful out of horrific conditions.  The more people pray in a way that satisfies divine principles, the more order can be brought out of earth's chaos.  Freedom to create a better world in the midst of chaos is part of the meaning of man's creation in God's image.  The real mystery to be probed is this: just how much of a difference can faith-based prayer make?  We cannot answer this question.

We must also recognize that many of the virtues we most admire are pain-dependent.  There is no courage without danger, no compassion without suffering and sorrow, no generosity without want, etc.
Also, philosophers have long recognized that a case can be made that a moral order with chaotically distributed pain is superior to one with fairly distributed pain.  I can elaborate that again if you wish.  But doing so takes us far beyond biblical teaching. 

Don

I agree in part with Don.  My two cents on this is as follows:

Many see the earth-life system as a place where spirits who have separated themselves from God incarnate.  It is a system with agreed upon laws or physical properties.  Our interactions in the physical world lead to our own consequences.  Good or bad depending for the most part on our own choices.  There is also a non-good, non-evil component of random energy, that is only given spin by us as "good" or "evil" when it changes our lives. Random energies may cause things like earthquakes, tsunamis, and even events such as a super nova.  All these energies are not good, not evil, they simply exist.  We look at our own lives, deaths, tragedies and assume that only an "evil" puppeteer could be intentionally causing these random energies.  In fact, they simply come about on their own.

People who make the choice to do evil acts to others are a whole different kettle of fish.  The Nazis and other genocidal regimes, others killing and starting wars, cause mass suffering on the earth.  They are not enabled or hindered by God.  They make their own choices, and events follow. 

It is not that God creates the evil events.  People turning away from love (hateful people), create the suffering, and some misinterpret random energies as being evil. 

One could then ask "but why did God create the earth, if evil and suffering exist?"  It is exactly because we are empowered to act with love or against love, that we are allowed to express ourselves in this earth life system, without an outside God intervening to either create or prevent suffering.  Perhaps, in certain heavens, it is different, and suffering is unknown.  Perhaps the consequences of suffering, our stubborn  perseverance for good, and triumphing over our circumstances makes the physical world so special. 

While I empathize that some may look at the outward appearance of a cruel uncaring divinity, I think that is not the true underlying reality.  I do believe, in my heart that God is the foundation of love.  I feel that when we come into the physical world we are given this wonderful ability to interact with each other, make choices, and experience the consequences (good or evil).

There is no anthropormic deity pulling all the strings - we are cocreators both on earth and in the mental planes after death.  God is the foundation of love from which everything flows.  However we are not micromanaged; quite the opposite.  In order to learn and move toward love, we are left to play and experience consequences, good and bad.

Matthew

Greetings.

   I was reluctant to comment in this thread as there are many people who believe that the Bible is God's word, and I think the topic "Is God Evil?" seems to be refering to God of the Bible. If God of the Bible is really the Supreme Omnipotent maker of Heaven and Earth, then I consider Him to be evil.

   Being that I believe the real God to be the creator of all universes and dimensions in existence and source of all power and love, I consider the god of the Bible to be a lowly, self indulged, egotistical maniac with special powers enabling him to manipulate humans into worshipping him while creating massive suffering for some ungodly reason.

   Most likely, the god of the Bible is a man-made construct for justifying certain evil people's need for  making personal gain by controlling the good people through deception. Many modern scholars believe the Old Testament to be written by several different authors at different times in history, and much later than Moses.

Here is an interesting website pointing out the parts of the Bible that reveal God's dark side:
http://www.evilbible.com/

Ralph

if god was responsible for these evil acts in the bible,why is he not doing it now,i mean why are'nt the profits and preachers writing more to this day in the bible of god,why is god not giving orders now,i beleive that a lot of preachers back then ordered this and convieniently wrote in the bible that it was down to god.

like a lot of preachers today,they are only in it for there own gain i'm not saying all preachers are hypocrites but there are a few out there in the world that are,why is no preacher or profit writing today the bible,i mean god is always there but he is not evil because if he was, so would we be evil,a lot of people blame things onto god.

i read the bible but my dad when he was alive said the bibles contridicts itself because for example you read "an eye for an eye" and then a bit further on its says"turn the other cheek",the bible was written by man and thats why its full of things about god but was it true or not after all we wasnt there to witness any of it.

the old saying is"innocent until proven guilty"

its like jesus said to the sanhedrin at the temple you hypocrites and thats what a lot of preachers are today hypocrites and also way back in the beginning

jesus says it all

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Tve5dVKpQM&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yU2STp1BMDA&feature=PlayList&p=619459D91F4BDB30&index=52

heres the so called preachers of gods love
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pfl6li3R-10&NR=1

only the preachers nicodemus and joseph beleived that jesus was the son of god

even the so called preachers of gods love fooled judas into thinking they wanted to beleive jesus so judas betrays jesus.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BAAcN4Q4mlQ&NR=1

love and god bless  love juditha

hawkeye wrote on Jan 26^th, 2010 at 5:50pm:

With the tragedy of Haiti and of course the countless other tragedies around the world caused by natural disasters showing how evil God is? If Gods in charge and all things are a result of his desires or wishes then why is he/she causing such turmoil? Why would he allow the Germans to kill all those Jews during the second world war? Or what happined in Rwanda. Or priests raping children? Earthquakes, volcanoes, tidal waves, disease, hunger, Hiroshima and Nagasaki.....The list just goes on and on. If this is the God of the Christian bible,.... who wants to believe in that? Killing, murder, molestation, pestilence, earthquakes,...what kind of a God would allow these sort of things? Some will say it is a test. Or a test of faith. HUH? Get a grip. Can it be said that God was on the side of the West when they bombed the hell out of German cities and killed a million people. Or in Japan? Who's side was God on? Was the other side evil? Was God on the side of Cassy when he killed mothers and babies in Vietnam? Tell me why would "God" allow all of this to happen? It confuses the hell out of me. This good and righteous God spoken of and believed in by so many. Why does he allow such evil? (I personally see more of the true meening of God's love in one Extreme Home Makeover show.) I am honestly confused as to why anyone would believe in a God that allows these things to happen yet millions stand around with their heads in the ground not seeming to notice. Religion is just to messed up. Loving people do good. I am not so sure about this God so many of you speak so highly of, especially if hes so connected to all this evil.

Hi Hawkeye: This is not unusual for people to blame God for evil... this is part of the downside of belief systems in which God is seen as the creator of everything... this is why The Buddha always advised his students to avoid thinking of the universe in terms of God... David Hawkins had this experience of blaming God and he became an atheist for a significant part of his life... but, one day he descended into Dante's inferno and experienced complete hopelessness... where upon a voice in his head asked, 'If there is a God... please help me...' the rest is history in his life... which completely turned around...

In the objective world, we live in a Newtonian paradigm of cause and effect... free will controls the illusion of cause and effect... until you decide to rise above the objective and enter the subjective world you will continued to believe in the blame game...

It is an illusion Hawkeye...

S.

Don,

if it actually is as you say, then prayers are not answered by God directly, but by a built-in mechanism (and/or entities) within God's creation.

When we assume this creation is well made, perfect, as we can assume if made by a perfect God, then we must conclude that suffering is an element which is there for a reason, for instance that it betters people. It is only such a pity that we know relatively little about this reason. And more profoundly that we know so little about why such a "school to become better" is necessary at all. Why separation from God at all, in the first place.

These questions are the more urgent, the more my image of God is consisting of attributes like "all-good", as this makes the image of God more human. If I don't have any human-like attributes for God, the questions are less urgent, or become just inadequate, as I won't understand anyway any answers concerning such a foreign God.

I have turned to the latter way, and am not interested anymore in theology, as I have searched for answers, but couldn't find none there. I now don't ask such questions anymore, as it seems not fruitful to do that.

Spooky

In addition to the excellent comments so far...

Firstly, it seems strange that these questions seem to only get asked after an earthquake-type event when suffering and death occur each and every day.I would like to point out that the Haitians are not singled out for death. Someday we all leave our physical body whether suddenly of a heart attack at 50 (like a colleague yesterday), of leukaemia a 46 (like my brother-in-law) or at a ripe old age like my Grandma. This is why the topics on this site are of interest to us all.

Secondly, to the question 'why does God allow suffering' personally I don't believe in a transcendent God apart from creation. Basically I believe that We are God (by we I mean all consciousnesses not just humans ).I believe that an apparent separation from God (I prefer source -less abused ! ) is an illusion.

This leads on to the problem of why the illusion, why the 'forgetting' or in Genesis terms why 'the Fall'. A Course in Miracles calls this apparent separation 'a mad idea. ' Personally I don't like to believe in divine mad ideas so I prefer Walsch's 'white room' idea. In this idea the Creator can be thought of as a white thing in a white room with nothing in it i.e. no frames of reference. In such a room you cannot experience yourself because nothing in it is not you. In the same way the Source had to create at least the illusion of separation so that He/She could experience their self. Hence, a universe of relativity is set up dark/light, hot/cold, courage/cowardice etc (as Don observes). In this schema spiritual growth is the remembering (or re-membering) that We are One (the illusion dissipates).Now of course I realise that this 'theory' is not scientifically testable, but there are some things which can never be ultimately tested (see Tom Cambell's My Big Toe for a full discussion on the limits of human knowledge).

With regard to the Haitian disaster the above theory would say something along the lines of ' the Haitians at some level (albeit not conscious) have given us (the world) the opportunity to experience/create compassion '. This is why I have a problem with talking about 'tragedy' and 'evil' because with our limited awareness how can we know what ultimate good has come from an event ? What has it allowed us to experience ?

D

Love your spacesuit, Ralph. This earth trip is completely worth it, just so I could see you in it. I'm done. No further happiness is needed. God is good.

:)

heisenberg69 wrote on Jan 28^th, 2010 at 5:59am:

In addition to the excellent comments so far... Firstly, it seems strange that these questions seem to only get asked after an earthquake-type event when suffering and death occur each and every day.I would like to point out that the Haitians are not singled out for death. Someday we all leave our physical body whether suddenly of a heart attack at 50 (like a colleague yesterday), of leukaemia a 46 (like my brother-in-law) or at a ripe old age like my Grandma. This is why the topics on this site are of interest to us all. Secondly, to the question 'why does God allow suffering' personally I don't believe in a transcendent God apart from creation. Basically I believe that We are God (by we I mean all consciousnesses not just humans ).I believe that an apparent separation from God (I prefer source -less abused ! ) is an illusion. This leads on to the problem of why the illusion, why the 'forgetting' or in Genesis terms why 'the Fall'. A Course in Miracles calls this apparent separation 'a mad idea. ' Personally I don't like to believe in divine mad ideas so I prefer Walsch's 'white room' idea. In this idea the Creator can be thought of as a white thing in a white room with nothing in it i.e. no frames of reference. In such a room you cannot experience yourself because nothing in it is not you. In the same way the Source had to create at least the illusion of separation so that He/She could experience their self. Hence, a universe of relativity is set up dark/light, hot/cold, courage/cowardice etc (as Don observes). In this schema spiritual growth is the remembering (or re-membering) that We are One (the illusion dissipates).Now of course I realise that this 'theory' is not scientifically testable, but there are some things which can never be ultimately tested (see Tom Cambell's My Big Toe for a full discussion on the limits of human knowledge). With regard to the Haitian disaster the above theory would say something along the lines of ' the Haitians at some level (albeit not conscious) have given us (the world) the opportunity to experience/create compassion '. This is why I have a problem with talking about 'tragedy' and 'evil' because with our limited awareness how can we know what ultimate good has come from an event ? What has it allowed us to experience ? D

What is being left out in all the compassion and solicitation which of course is justified... but God did not create the corruption, greed and avarice of the Haitian leadership which thru that greed and corruption for personal wealth ignored good earthquake building standards... building codes that in California keep earthquake death and personal injury to a minimum... God did NOT prevent due diligence of the governing authority from enforcing sound building code practices.

S.

Thank you all for such excellent replies. Of course, I do believe in God, the Creator, The All. Its really more about this whole blame game that I read about and hear about so often. I also believe its not Gods will to inflect all these sufferings upon all of us. Its mans. Mostly in efforts to find more power or money. God doesn't cause earthquakes. Plate tectonics cause earthquakes. Planetary events like weather can cause crop failure that lead to hunger. Not God. There are so many examples that I could write here. What I see a a bigger problem is people blaming these on God instead of seeing the real reasons. God no more caused Hitler to order the killing of Jews than Satan ordered him to. Both ideas really are quite ridiculous. That's not to say that miracles, or evil things dont happen. So when I see whats happining in Haiti right now..I see good. Much of it done in the name of God. But its really done because of compassion. When I hear of all this good, and all this evil, for me all I see is someone putting a price tag on the events.

Now Hawkeye and Seraphis,
IF you believe in an allmighty, all-knowing God, THEN you can't exclude the evil from God. No matter if God is outside God's creation, as Don says, or if God influences it. God let it happen and God created it that way.

Heisenberg:
Of course this "white room theory" is not really a theory. It's more a mythical picture of what we can't grasp. If something is totally one, it cannot suddenly decide to divide itself into two, because it wants to experience itself. For such a decision a separation must have had already happened. So, it's just a picture for what we can't really understand. I think finally Zen is the most appropriate way to deal with ourselves and the world.

Spooky

spooky2 wrote on Jan 28^th, 2010 at 9:05pm:

Now Hawkeye and Seraphis, IF you believe in an allmighty, all-knowing God, THEN you can't exclude the evil from God. No matter if God is outside God's creation, as Don says, or if God influences it. God let it happen and God created it that way. Spooky

Hi Spooky: The Buddha said don't use the God concept... the reason is it is loaded with belief system entanglements... if you can grasp and deferentiate between the objective world as beneath the subjective world then you will see that the Newtonian concept of cause and effect is an illusion and has no real sequential progression... it is all in your mind... if you accept the sequencing... it exists... if you don't it doesn't...

'The greatest illusion is that man has limitations.' Robert A. Monroe

S.

Hi Spooky,

thanks for your comments.The natural world is full of examples of things which appear to be separate but which at a higher level of understanding are better thought of as one.Two such examples could include electricity and magnetism which previously were thought of as separate forces have been shown by Maxwell as aspects of one field (elecromagnetic) as Einstein combined the seemingly separate energy and mass in his famous equation with atomic consequences.Modern physicists look at the zero energy state as the foundation of seemingly disparate forces.

In a way I think of us with our limited awareness trying to figure this stuff like a flatlander (2 dimensions) trying to visualise another dimension e.g height. If a flatlander was drawn on a piece of paper in pencil I could come along and rub him out.From the perspective of another flatlander his friend 'just disappeared'.From my 3d 'higher' perspective no mystery! In the same way I think many of our current paradoxes are only paradoxes from our 'lower' perspective.Perspective is all.

I agree with you that the 'white room' is not a theory (more a parable) as its not falsifiable but I think it may be a useful tool for understanding the non-understandable! All I can ask of myself is that I remain open and try and 'raise the bar' of my understanding. I think that things like meditation and afterlife exploration could be tools to this end.

D

heisenberg69 wrote on Jan 28^th, 2010 at 5:59am:

), This leads on to the problem of why the illusion, why the 'forgetting' or in Genesis terms why 'the Fall'. A Course in Miracles calls this apparent separation 'a mad idea. ' Personally I don't like to believe in divine mad ideas so I prefer Walsch's 'white room' idea. In this idea the Creator can be thought of as a white thing in a white room with nothing in it i.e. no frames of reference. In such a room you cannot experience yourself because nothing in it is not you. In the same way the Source had to create at least the illusion of separation so that He/She could experience their self. Hence, a universe of relativity is set up dark/light, hot/cold, courage/cowardice etc (as Don observes). In this schema spiritual growth is the remembering (or re-membering) that We are One (the illusion dissipates).Now of course I realise that this 'theory' is not scientifically testable, but there are some things which can never be ultimately tested (see Tom Cambell's My Big Toe for a full discussion on the limits of human knowledge). D

I like The White Room concept... in order for us to experience the world we must differentiate... create a persona that is separate... otherwise there is no universe... the ability to slide into and out of reality is the sign of a master being... for example like Robert Monroe's Facilitator who seems to be able to interact with the world on his/her own terms... sometimes a taxi driver, sometimes a bar tender, sometimes a college professor... or a theraphist... I suspect when he choose to enter... no one notices he has no past... no social security number... when he passed out of reality... no one notices he is gone... they may remember what he taught them... I had this experience in Germany many years ago... in my youth I distinctly remember a protrait of a man in a store window... years later I had a guru for a short time.... years after that the I remembered The Guru was the man in the portrait.... needless to say I was stunned by the realization... I never saw the guru again... I don't even know if he still exists...

S.

Yes Seraphis, the talk about God is not an easy one. Because often standard statements are just repeated, but apparently not consequently thought through, from time to time I like to point out my concerns.
   Yes, Buddhist teachings often resemble a bit the mystic scripture of Christendom, which always was a thing of only very few people, and this is a way very different from mainstream Christian theology. There are ways of thinking and practices possible which I hardly find in Christian churches. Well, one likes this, the other that.

Heisenberg,
yes, theories about things can change, but this white-room-entity, or a totally undivided entity is a concept, and not a theory about a phaenomenon. But what's possible is a something like a manifold, which at the same time is one. For example our memory, or our self-consciousness. Or a musical triad. Or a landscape... Such things are common, it's only not so common to see it this way, in our western-modern-separating-science-world.

Now let's have a cup of tea.  ;)

Spooky

Earl Grey or Assam or are they really just the same thing ?

;D

This is funny, so will post it again

When it comes to (EDITED), big-time, major league (EDITED), you have to stand in awe of the all-time champion of false promises and exaggerated claims, religion. No contest. Religion easily has the greatest (EDITED) story ever told. Think about it. Religion has actually convinced people that there's an invisible man living in the sky who watches everything you do, every minute of every day. And the invisible man has a special list of ten things he does not want you to do. And if you do any of these ten things, he has a special place, full of fire and smoke and burning and torture and anguish, where he will send you to live and suffer and burn and choke and scream and cry forever and ever 'til the end of time!

But He loves you. He loves you
Credits to George Carlin

Well yes Charley, my impression is there are so many people who have a concept of "their" religion, but refuse to think it through, and neither they show any signs that they live it. They stop half-way. And that is what I find so annoying. I mean, when someone says that this is not intellectually to understand, would be ok for me, but when they show no level of understanding at all, and still say "I'm a Christian (or whatever) " that is really sad.

Spooky