You all realize that you're potentially dabbling in the dens of demons with this stuff, right? Now, while I obviously have some different viewpoints on what you're all believing and experiencing with this here stuff, I'm certainly not going to be ignorant and say "I'm right, you're wrong." That's just not how I do things! So please just bear with me to the end and read this through.

Ultimately, I felt I needed to at least present the possibility of my beliefs indeed being correct for those who're so inclined to realize that just such a warning/disclaimer is exactly what they needed.

While I certainly don't think what everyone is experiencing is "fake" by any means, I do think that the entire undertaking is a conveniently painted facade of what's really going on. Do you really think that if this entire thing was indeed run by demons and perhaps even the Devil himself, that they would go ahead and show you horrible and brimstone-esque things automatically? Of course not! Because then you'd come back to the real world with a renewed drive to do whatever it took to ensure that what you just went through would never happen again! And if you didn't yet know, that goes against everything that Lucifer is likely trying to turn into a reality here.

Going into these other sub-conscious realms and experiencing pure bliss and wonder is exactly what's to be expected of a demon run siren song. Have you all forgotten that the Devil is practically known for appearing to people in the guise of a light angel or a good spirit being? He never appears to you as the Prince of Darkness, mainly because then he wouldn't be able to drag you down to Hell with him with his little ploy so easily. The more people he brings down with him, the better -- and right now, at least from my perspective, you're going right down along with him willingly by thinking this whole thing is all well and great. All I'm saying is that it might not be. It might be very, very sinister.

Just be careful with what you're doing and know that it all very well could be an elaborately constructed mirage whose sole purpose is to hide from you a much more sinister and eternally damning agenda. God Bless You All and may the Lord Jesus Christ protect each of you from all things evil and sinful throughout your journeys, ultimately showing you the true path to riotousness!  :)

(Note:  Once again, please don't take this message as me saying that I'm right and you all are wrong. I'm not that ignorant and while I have faith in my own beliefs to the highest degree, I'm not blinded by the fact that there is a chance that my outlook of things could be incorrect. I doubt it, but still, I'm not going to pretend I'm too cool for school and cannot be wrong what-so-ever. I just thought an intelligent discussion on the matter was much more in line with a more well-rounded and knowledgeable outlook for all!  8-))

Thank you for your concern and willingness to speak out on what you believe, AlarmClock.

Our success in our afterllife contacts seems strongly related to how much kind consideration or pure unconditional love we feel as we make these contacts. I personally don't see how that relates to Lucifer.

Only once out of countless explorations did I feel any sense of threat or evil and I may have made that up. It was quite different from the elation of helping lost souls or being with the higher beings whom one frequently meets.

I appreciate your comments.
Bets

betson wrote on Jan 1^st, 2010 at 7:24pm:

Thank you for your concern and willingness to speak out on what you believe, AlarmClock. Our success in our afterllife contacts seems strongly related to how much kind consideration or pure unconditional love we feel as we make these contacts. I personally don't see how that relates to Lucifer. Only once out of countless explorations did I feel any sense of threat or evil and I may have made that up. It was quite different from the elation of helping lost souls or being with the higher beings whom one frequently meets. I appreciate your comments. Bets

Thank you Bets for the response and also for understanding that I'm coming more from a concerned path than one of ridicule. :)

Basically what I suppose I'm trying to say is that these unconditional feelings of love that you're feeling aren't coming from where you might think they should.

All in all, what I'm trying to say is that Lucifer is the demented architect behind the entire realm that is blatantly not supposed to feel wrong what-so-ever. I would imagine that warm, glowing feelings of love would be totally commonplace in an illusion that was supposed to make you think you are traveling through the more favorable portions of the "afterlife".

Hi

I don't recall that Lucifer was ever given power over Love.
God is Love.

I no longer believe that our lives need to be fear-based. I used to think that so I know it's a strong belief with plenty of examples.
You seem to have 'bought it' for the time being which I hope will be brief.   :)

Bets

You're correct in this, but you're bypassing the fact that he is given power over Deception. And as I'm sure we can all admit from real world experiences, a proper deception can oftentimes become very sweet bliss.

If anything else, if you could just take a more closer look at your surroundings on your next out-of-body adventure. There's no need to worry if things go downhill either as a simple, "Lord Jesus Christ walks with me always -- be gone!" will prove more than enough to immediately clear your area of any benevolent spirits.

At least, that's always worked for me when I've gone into sleep paralysis and have sensed some less than savory beings lurking nearby. Works like a charm!  :)

Thanks for your input but have you ever considered the fact that Lucifer doesn't exist and it was just all made up?

Not trying to say that I'm right and you're wrong. Just putting it out there.

supermodel wrote on Jan 2^nd, 2010 at 12:32am:

Thanks for your input but have you ever considered the fact that Lucifer doesn't exist and it was just all made up? Not trying to say that I'm right and you're wrong. Just putting it out there.

Due to the simple fact that I've unfortunately experienced pure evil up-close-and-personal on multiple occasions, no, it no longer occurs to me that there isn't a singular benevolent force -- named Lucifer, the Devil, whatever -- that exists in this world. Must be nice to live in a fantasy land where you force yourself to believe otherwise, no?

AlarmClock wrote on Jan 2^nd, 2010 at 1:58am:

supermodel wrote on Jan 2nd, 2010 at 12:32am: Thanks for your input but have you ever considered the fact that Lucifer doesn't exist and it was just all made up? Not trying to say that I'm right and you're wrong. Just putting it out there. Due to the simple fact that I've unfortunately experienced pure evil up-close-and-personal on multiple occasions, no, it no longer occurs to me that there isn't a singular benevolent force -- named Lucifer, the Devil, whatever -- that exists in this world. Must be nice to live in a fantasy land where you force yourself to believe otherwise, no?

Believe there is a devil and sure enough there will be a devil. There is nothing anybody here could say that will stop you believing that Lucifer is alive and well.
The key here is consciousness is personal and you create your own reality , it's subjective. So to an extent we do all live in our own 'fantasy land' as you put it.

Drop fear (what religious organizations control with) and evil losses it's footing. Consciousness is 'love' and fundamental, this is what one will find out if one takes the time and effort in finding the big truth. Most get stuck in beliefs and dogma of some sort.
To be here and posting may mean you are open and willing to accept a possible change in perspective ? ::)

Not that anybody here can change your perspective, only you can do that.

Alarmclock,


AlarmClock wrote on Jan 1^st, 2010 at 8:31pm:

You're correct in this, but you're bypassing the fact that he is given power over Deception. And as I'm sure we can all admit from real world experiences, a proper deception can oftentimes become very sweet bliss.

I have always had this logic problem with believing in an all-powerful being given power over Deception, such as Lucifer, Satan or whatever label his/her believers use for him/her.  And that problem is: 

What are the limits to its power of Deception?

Specifically, if Satan has the power of deception, could he/she deceive us into believing that he/she is Jesus Christ? 

If not, why not?

And if so, how do we know it wasn't Satan the Romans nailed on the Cross 2000 years ago?

How do those who believe in Satan's power handle this conundrum?

Bruce

pedigree wrote on Jan 2^nd, 2010 at 6:29am:

AlarmClock wrote on Jan 2nd, 2010 at 1:58am: supermodel wrote on Jan 2nd, 2010 at 12:32am: Thanks for your input but have you ever considered the fact that Lucifer doesn't exist and it was just all made up? Not trying to say that I'm right and you're wrong. Just putting it out there. Due to the simple fact that I've unfortunately experienced pure evil up-close-and-personal on multiple occasions, no, it no longer occurs to me that there isn't a singular benevolent force -- named Lucifer, the Devil, whatever -- that exists in this world. Must be nice to live in a fantasy land where you force yourself to believe otherwise, no? Believe there is a devil and sure enough there will be a devil. There is nothing anybody here could say that will stop you believing that Lucifer is alive and well. The key here is consciousness is personal and you create your own reality , it's subjective. So to an extent we do all live in our own 'fantasy land' as you put it. Drop fear (what religious organizations control with) and evil losses it's footing. Consciousness is 'love' and fundamental, this is what one will find out if one takes the time and effort in finding the big truth. Most get stuck in beliefs and dogma of some sort. To be here and posting may mean you are open and willing to accept a possible change in perspective ? ::) Not that anybody here can change your perspective, only you can do that.

Indeed, I've always been open to the exchanging of ideas and potential philosophies and stumbling on over here has peaked my interest in the overall Christian viewpoint of astral projection and all of its components. For the most part, I've discovered that the majority opinion is that since your separated from your body during phasing or OBE's, that you are thus, separated from Christ since within our body we are with Him. Now, I know that there's many who subscribe to the belief that OBE/phasing consists of not necessarily becoming separated per se from the body, but just having a different viewpoint from the conscience rather, that's still the side everyone has appeared to have taken.

As for me, I am a strong proponent in everything happening for a reason, so one way or another I'm going to have to come to an absolute, concrete opinion on all of this -- you've all heard and read my current perspective, but as you've said, I'm on here and discussing things so I hope that helps lend credence to my statement that while I believe my own beliefs and convictions to be true, I'm absolutely not of the type to deem anyone else's beliefs as absolutely and undeniably false.

If nothing else, delving more into this topic should prove to further strengthen my current belief system and faith in Lord Jesus Christ.


Bruce Moen wrote on Jan 2^nd, 2010 at 10:26am:

Alarmclock, AlarmClock wrote on Jan 1st, 2010 at 8:31pm: You're correct in this, but you're bypassing the fact that he is given power over Deception. And as I'm sure we can all admit from real world experiences, a proper deception can oftentimes become very sweet bliss.    I have always had this logic problem with believing in an all-powerful being given power over Deception, such as Lucifer, Satan or whatever label his/her believers use for him/her.  And that problem is:  What are the limits to its power of Deception? Specifically, if Satan has the power of deception, could he/she deceive us into believing that he/she is Jesus Christ?  If not, why not? And if so, how do we know it wasn't Satan the Romans nailed on the Cross 2000 years ago? How do those who believe in Satan's power handle this conundrum? Bruce

First off Bruce, while we are most certainly coming from opposite ends of the belief spectrum, I do recognize that you are a leading authority on this subject and as such are well-experienced. I think it says something that you are most willing to allow someone like me with my contrasting beliefs to remain on this forum and discuss the difference in these beliefs more in-depth. Especially when I imagine many other places would just ban me before I could even get started. So thank you for that, and while I'm ultimately praying that you and everyone else on here will see the errors of your ways, that doesn't mean I don't have a great respect for the knowledge and experience that you do possess. Hopefully that made sense...

As for your suggestion that it was actually Satan on the Cross, what goal would that ultimately serve? Unless you're suggesting that "incorrectly" believing that Lord Jesus Christ was crucified and resurrected three days later would be damning in some sort of way? If it was indeed Satan in disguise, would believing in this deception somehow damn me to hell in any way? If not, then why would he do it? I would imagine that the Devil, should you all believe that he exists, would prefer to only carry out tasks that would serve some type of beneficial purpose when it was all said and done.

As a brief explanation of why I am so blindly faithful, I need only bring up the subject of the Holy Spirit. Now, I know that those not having received it after accepting Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior and asking Him to cleanse us of our sins will not be able to relate to this whatsoever. But please believe me when I say that thanks to the Holy Spirit residing within me and helping me walk the path of righteousness and love, there is no doubt in my mind that my belief system is anything but strongly rooted in Truth.

Once again, thanks for your reply and I'll be praying for all of you! God Bless! :)

Alarmclock-

your beliefs are your own and I don't think anyone on this board will tell you you are wrong. But from my perspective the problem with believing in this super cunning being is that you can never know if an apparently 'good' thing is'nt really the product of a special piece of cunning by the dark one. How do you know the bible was'nt cunningly written by the devil to entrap believers? Or Jesus was'nt lucifer in a special disguise ?

A similar issue comes up with 'authentic' and 'inauthentic' sources which have come up previously on this board. How the heck can you determine an authentic source from an inauthentic one - if (as one contributor) has suggested deceptive sources 'cunningly' mix truth with deceit? From my perspective this descends into a madness of second guessing and doubt.

I would say give if it the 'feel' test - if it feels right to you right now it probably is right....go with it...if it doesnt....choose another. What other way is open to us to choose the 'right' path ?

Dave

Sorry Alarmclock-

I wrote my responce as you as you were writing yours. It appears that believing in a polarity of good and evil serves you and you are happy with that.
My best wishes.

Dave

heisenberg69 wrote on Jan 2^nd, 2010 at 12:56pm:

Alarmclock- your beliefs are your own and I don't think anyone on this board will tell you you are wrong. But from my perspective the problem with believing in this super cunning being is that you can never know if an apparently 'good' thing is'nt really the product of a special piece of cunning by the dark one. How do you know the bible was'nt cunningly written by the devil to entrap believers? Or Jesus was'nt lucifer in a special disguise ? A similar issue comes up with 'authentic' and 'inauthentic' sources which have come up previously on this board. How the heck can you determine an authentic source from an inauthentic one - if (as one contributor) has suggested deceptive sources 'cunningly' mix truth with deceit? From my perspective this descends into a madness of second guessing and doubt. I would say give if it the 'feel' test - if it feels right to you right now it probably is right....go with it...if it doesnt....choose another. What other way is open to us to choose the 'right' path ? Dave

What end goal would the Devil be accomplishing by constructing such a ruse? What exactly would he be trying to keep "believers" away from with such a hoax? I don't get this argument what-so-ever.

Thanks for your responses though, regardless! :)

My experience with nasties is that they're a whole lot more bark than bite.  We used to have a resident entity here (name is Ted, as a matter of fact!) who not only scared everybody else, but also one of the other spirits!  Little old lady ghost who warned us not to go to the attic, because "he doesn't like people"!

Oh, well - I needed the space.  Made it into a bedroom for my kid, who proceeded to read him the riot act a few times, so he pretty much backed off.  Once in a while creepy critters pass through, but they have no authority here.

Was laying in bed one night, and looked up - the whole room was just swirling with energy.  Not malevolent, really, just amoral. Was that dangerous?  Well, it's possible, for instance, that someone could have encountered these beings, been frightened, and fallen down the stairs.  So they could have done real life damage in that way, or the person could have had emotional issues from fear, which is also damage...but in both cases the person did it to themselves.  What these entities *don't* have is the power to physically shove someone down the stairs, and fear is a choice.

I won't say there is *no* danger, but the majority of it is manageable.  There's danger in taking a drive, too, but we mostly all still do it.

I sheild when I think I might encounter something unpleasant, because while I'm not really worried about them hurting me, they can be distracting and annoying when I'm trying to accomplish something else.  Sort of like bug dope for black flies - they don't carry any diseases that I'm aware of, but you bug dope anyway, because they're damned annoying.

AlarmClock-

'What end goal would the Devil be accomplishing by constructing such a ruse? What exactly would he be trying to keep "believers" away from with such a hoax? I don't get this argument what-so-ever. '

Its difficult to understand the motives of an entity which I don't believe exists ! However, an atheist ( which I don't consider myself) could suggest human misery caused by religious wars, persecution, fear of damnation, guilt (of 'sinfulness')- supposing that this hypothesised Satan enjoyed human misery.

Dave

heisenberg69 wrote on Jan 2^nd, 2010 at 2:49pm:

AlarmClock- 'What end goal would the Devil be accomplishing by constructing such a ruse? What exactly would he be trying to keep "believers" away from with such a hoax? I don't get this argument what-so-ever. ' Its difficult to understand the motives of an entity which I don't believe exists ! However, an atheist ( which I don't consider myself) could suggest human misery caused by religious wars, persecution, fear of damnation, guilt (of 'sinfulness')- supposing that this hypothesised Satan enjoyed human misery. Dave

Since you're not an atheist and you don't believe in a malevolent spirit, then how do you explain away all of the tragedies and misery we see so much throughout the world?

Alarmclock

There is very little logic in the idea that the existence of negativity in the world proves that there is a supreme negative being which causes it. 

Where does this negativity come from?  It comes from a separation from one's inner self- from one's source- from love. 

I Am Dude wrote on Jan 2^nd, 2010 at 3:04pm:

Alarmclock There is very little logic in the idea that the existence of negativity in the world proves that there is a supreme negative being which causes it.  Where does this negativity come from?  It comes from a separation from one's inner self- from one's source- from love.

How is that illogical? Or rather, how is it any more illogical than thinking that one's separation from their "love source" is the cause of famines, slaughter and the abortion of newborn babies?

To call one logical and the other illogical is the product of sheer ignorance.

Alarm Clock:

At some point during my life I realized I didn't know what Jesus Christ is all about, tried to find out, and had some experiences that let me know that he is a divine reality.  I don't know all of the details, but whatever they are, they aren't oppresive, as some people make them out to be.

Just as you can't truly love and respect another person if you fear he or she, you can't truly love a divine being if you fear it.

Regarding Satan being  able to appear  as a light being, I believe it is a big mistake to conclude that one verse in the Bible trumps all of the light being experiences people have had. To suggest that a demonic being could radiate perfect unconditional love towards a person is a bit much.

I've had lots of contact with the spirit World, and it has been made so clear to me that it is always  up to us. If we choose love and light, an evil minded spirit won't be able to harm us. Of course we need to use our discrimination when we make contact with spirit beings, and not assume that all of them are friendly.

Below is something I wrote that explains that Satan is a myth. Sorry for its length.

I’ll start out by saying that I don’t believe that a being named Satan exists. I believe this for a number of reasons I’ll speak about in a little while. This doesn’t mean that I also believe that there is no such thing as unfriendly spirits. I have various reasons for believing that they exist. Some of them are spirits who used to be human and for whatever reason haven’t moved on to the light. Some might have origins that aren’t human. It’s a big universe out there. Whatever the case, if the human race is going to deal with the problem of unfriendly spirits in the best way possible, it is important to find out what’s true beyond a false belief system.

One of the reasons some people aren’t willing to question if Satan actually exists, is because they listen to the statement, “One of Satan’s biggest tricks is getting people to believe that he doesn’t exist.” I don’t know who the first person to state this platitude is, but it certainly doesn’t come from the Bible. A mythical being doesn’t become a reality, simply because somebody makes a statement that makes it so people are afraid to question the supposed reality of this being. If a person allows himself (or herself) to be influenced in such a way, he allows an unexamined belief system of another person to determine what he believes.

The person who made up the Satan trick statement probably didn’t take the time to thoroughly determine if such a being actually exists. It is very significant to add that a person doesn’t need to believe in a being named Satan, in order to be wary of unfriendly influences. In whatever manner unfriendly influences exist, whether from deceptive spirits, misleading people, or even aspects of a person’s own mind, a person needs to listen to his intelligence, common sense, heart and conscience. Therefore, there is no need to conclude that one gives into evil if one questions the existence of Satan.

One of the problems with relying on a belief system that doesn’t accurately represent how things are, is that people often attribute more power to unfriendly spirits than they have. Going by my experiences, it is essential that unfriendly spirits be stood up to with courage. If we believe that evil spirit beings exist that have the power to overtake us regardless of what we want, how much courage will we have if confronted by an unfriendly spirit? On the other hand, if we clearly understand that God has set things up so that any person who chooses to live according to love and goodness can’t have his free will infringed upon by an unfriendly spirit, we will be more likely to have the courage to stand up to an unfriendly spirit.

In fact, if a person believes that an unfriendly spirit has the ability to get the best of him; his belief might provide the key that empowers the unfriendly spirit. Belief can be a powerful thing. Therefore, it is essential that we seek to empower people rather than unfriendly spirits.

Another problem with concluding that unfriendly spirits have more power than they have is that this conclusion causes some people to become so afraid that they end up creating imaginary demons. This matter will be discussed later.

Another problem with defining unfriendly spirits in a particular way without having an accurate understanding of their nature, is that our lack of understanding will make it difficult to determine the most effective way to deal with them (At this point I have factors other than fear in mind). For example, if we assume that an unfriendly spirit is a demon that is beyond being redeemed, we won’t be inclined to interact with it in a manner that inspires it to change its way and move on to the light. As a result, even if we get it to stop troubling a particular person, it might find another person to trouble. Also, an opportunity to help a child of God who is innately divine and temporarily confused won’t be taken advantage of. I believe that if a person wants to live according to love and divine will, this later point can’t be disregarded.

Regarding the statement that unfriendly spirits are confused, I don’t believe a soul of any kind would choose darkness over light if it wasn’t confused in some way. I believe this is so, because there is no way a clear thinking and wise soul would choose darkness over God’s love and light.

Does Satan exist?

People including myself have tried to determine if the Biblical perspective including its history supports the concept of Satan, and have found that it doesn’t, despite the frequent usage of the names Satan, Devil, Lucifer, or adversary. Some people believe that the serpent who talked Eve into picking and eating an apple from a tree God said is off limits, was Satan. Even if one takes the Garden of Eden story literally, there is no basis for concluding that the serpent was Satan. When the story of the Garden of Eden was written the concept of Satan didn’t exist. The serpent was one of the animals God had created. This serpent had no relation to the fallen angel explanation of Satan’s origin that some people believe in.

The meaning of the Garden of Eden story has been interpreted in different ways. One possible interpretation is that all souls who become human originally existed in a pure state, because this is how God created them. When these souls make use of human bodies the negative influences they are exposed to corrupt them in varying ways. These are the influences Paul speaks about in Romans 7:7-25. I’m talking about the self-defense instinct that the human race and animals have. This instinct is all about me, myself, and I. Sigmund Freud referred to this self-centered part of our self as the Id.

I believe the divine powers that be purposely created such an instinct to help us survive as we partake in the competitive nature of this World, and so we can learn about psychological contrast. For example, how can we know about humility without knowing about arrogance? Other innate-brain-based programs and physiological attributes are a part of this process such as our sex drive; drive to eat; over two hundred kinds of molecules that play a part in causing us to experience emotions such as hate, anger, and fear (not all emotions are negative); and hormones that can influence us in a negative way, as when testosterone plays a role in a person becoming overly aggressive.  Just as the divine powers that be were able to create animals so they have the innate ability to do things such as migrate, spin spider webs, build ant colonies, build bee hives, weave bird nests and build beaver dams without having to attend a school that teaches such a thing; the divine powers that be were able to create the human organism so some basic ways of functioning are in place.

These are the words Paul used when he spoke about the influence of the flesh. From Romans 7:7-25:

“God’s Law Reveals Our Sin”

Well then, am I suggesting that the law of God is sinful? Of course not! In fact, it was the law that showed me my sin. I would never have known that coveting is wrong if the law had not said, “You must not covet.” But sin used this command to arouse all kinds of covetous desires within me! If there were no law, sin would not have that power. At one time I lived without understanding the law. But when I learned the command not to covet, for instance, the power of sin came to life, and I died. So I discovered that the law’s spiritual death instead. Sin took advantage of those commands and deceived me; it used the commands to kill me. But still, the law itself is holy, and its commands are holy and right and good.

But how can that be? Did the law, which is good, cause my death? Of course not! Sin used what was good to bring about my condemnation to death. So we can see how terrible sin really is. It uses God’s good commands for its own evil purposes.

Struggling with Sin. So the trouble is not with the law, for it is spiritual and good. The trouble is with me, for I am all too human, a slave to sin. I don’t really understand myself, for I want to do what is right, but I don’t do it. Instead, I do what I hate. But if I know that what I am doing is wrong, this shows that I agree that the law is good. So I am not the one doing wrong, it is sin living in me that does it.

And I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. I want to do what is right, but I can’t. I want to do what is good, but I don’t. I don’t want to do what is wrong, but I do it anyway. But if I do what I don’t want to do, I am not really the one doing the wrong; it is sin living in me that does it.

I have discovered this principle of life—that when I want to do what is right, I inevitably do what is wrong. I love God’s law with all my heart. But there is another power within me that is at war with my mind. This power makes me a slave to the sin that is still within me. Oh, what a miserable person I am! Who will free me from this life that is dominated by sin and death? Thank God! The answer is to Jesus Christ our lord. So you see how it is: In my mind I really want to obey God’s law, but because of my sinful nature I am a slave to sin.”

Rather than using terms such as self-defense instinct, sex-drive, etc., Paul uses the word sin. I believe that if he lived today he might speak of the body-based drives that make it difficult to live our lives in a holy way, in a modern way, rather than making use of the word sin. That is of course if he didn’t limit himself to a Biblical way of explaining things. I figure God and Christ have no problem with us making use of 21st century language, as long as we use it with good intentions.

It is hard to imagine that an infinitely wise and loving God would sentence all of mankind to a non-Eden like existence because one person decided to eat an apple. Being all knowing as he is, he would certainly know if Eve would be able to resist eating an apple. If Eve’s state of mind existed in a manner where it wasn’t certain if she could resist temptation, why would God be so strict with her? I find it hard to believe that God would be so strict and unforgiving with a person who hadn’t had the chance to develop the wisdom that would enable her to choose correctly. If a person contends that God provided Eve with the necessary knowledge to choose wisely, then why didn’t she do so? Either God provided her with the knowledge she needed or he didn’t.

Perhaps God hopes that we will use the intelligence he has given us to find a less literal explanation for what the story of Eve’s temptation symbolizes. The moment when souls temporarily decided to become human, so they could learn the lessons that being human provides. Perhaps God didn’t force us to do so--we had a choice. Perhaps God provided a warning that was loving-in-nature, a statement in fact, not a threat. A test framework just doesn’t make sense because an all-knowing God wouldn’t need to conduct a test.

The story told in Numbers 22 provides one of many examples of how the word Satan means something other than the red-skinned, horned being some people imagine (John Milton brought this fictional image into human consciousness with his story Paradise Lost). A man named Balak asked a man named Bil’am to meet him so he could curse Israel. God instructed Bil’am not to do so. Bil’am disobeyed God’s command and traveled on a donkey to meet Balak. God sent an angel referred to as Satan (in the Hebrew translation) to stop Bil’am from doing so. Because this angel served the purpose of being an adversary to Bil’am (while at the same time serving God), it was referred to as a Satan.   

Another adversary/satan/devil is written about in the book of Job. This being paid a visit to heaven and even though God is all knowing, God asked it where it came from. Satan responded: “I have been patrolling the earth, watching everything that goes on.” God asked, “Have you noticed my servant Job? He is the finest man in all the earth. He is blameless—a man of complete integrity. He fears God and stays away from evil.” Satan responded: “Yes, but Job has good reason to fear God. You have always put a wall of protection around him and his home and his property. You have made him prosper in everything he does. Look how rich he is. But reach out and take everything he has, and he will surely curse you to your face!” (Job 1:6-11) To make a long story short, according to the Book of Job, God allowed Satan to do all kinds of negative things to Job including killing many of his servants, his seven sons and his three daughters (Job 1:13-19), in order to prove to Satan that there is one man who fears him (God).

I believe the story of Job is symbolic rather than literal and serves the purpose of instructing people to maintain love and faith in God even when they experience difficult times. Therefore the story does nothing to prove the existence of an adversary named Satan. I believe the story isn’t literal for several reasons:

1.      If God is all-knowing, then certainly he would know about the existence of an adversary who patrolled the earth. Therefore, it doesn’t make sense to conclude that God had to ask such a being where it came from.
2.      God wouldn’t have the need to prove something to a being that is as evil as Satan is considered to be.
3.      Even if God did feel compelled to prove something to Satan, I don’t believe that in order to do so he would allow a being to do all of the negative things Job’s adversary supposedly did.
4.      People who have made contact with the spirit World have found that beings vibrate at different rates according to how spiritually developed they are. In order to make it to heaven, a being would have to vibrate at a fast rate. The ability to vibrate at a fast rate has a lot to do with how much a being lives according to love. There is no way a being as negative as Satan is believed to be would vibrate fast enough to find his way to heaven. Even if a person doesn’t believe in the vibratory rate viewpoint, if as some people believe Satan is an angel who was expelled from heaven, would he be allowed to re-enter heaven so he could speak to God about Job? Even if there are some things God doesn’t know about, wouldn’t he know about an angel who was expelled from heaven? If somebody contends that I’m being too literal when it comes to God not knowing where Satan came from, please remember that I’m contending that the story of a being who afflicted Job is symbolic, not literal.

Even if a person decides to believe that the Book of Job is about events that actually took place, it is significant to note that the Adversary was able to do the negative things it did only after God gave it permission to do so. This way of viewing Satan is clearly different than the belief that Satan and his demons mess with people without God’s permission. I don’t believe it is reasonable to conclude that after the Job affair God decided to change his policy and allow Satan to do whatever he wants. What would be the point of such a decision? Certainly we have enough negative influences to contend with without having Satan and his supposed demons added to the formula. For example, the flesh-oriented influences Paul spoke about, the influences of our environment, and the manner in which unfriendly beings do exist.

Regarding fallen angels, this way of thinking is primarily the result of later versions of the Book of Isaiah. Initially Isaiah spoke of a fallen king of Babylon, a physical person. It is believed that Isaiah (depending upon which chapter is considered) was written somewhere between 681 and 734 B.C. More than 1,000 years later (A.D. 382) a man named Jerome was commissioned by Pope Damascus to make an official revision of the Latin versions of the Bible.

Jerome made a translational error and changed the Hebrew word heylel to the Latin word Lucifer. Lucifer means light (lux) bearer (ferrous), which is different than what heylel means. Heylel comes from the primitive root word halal. Halal is used 165 times in the Old Testament and means either praise (117 times), glory (14 times), boast (10 times), mad (8 times), shine (3 times), foolish (3 times), fools (2 times), commended (2 times), rage (2 times), celebrate (1 time), give (1 time), marriage (1 time) or renowned (1 time). Heylel is used just one time in Isaiah 14:12 (depending on the translation) and in this case means Satan. Not a fallen angel, a fallen king, a physical person. It is just that Jerome’s erroneous use of the word Lucifer has caused many people to believe that a fallen angel named Lucifer (aka Satan) exists.

Here is the relevant verse from Isaiah 14:12: “How are thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer (“Heylel” in the Hebrew version), son of the morning! How art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!”

Regarding the usage of the word heaven, this way of speaking was romantic, not literal. A similar approach can be found in Exodus 20:22, when God told Moses “Ye have seen that I have talked with you from heaven.” Heaven in this case means the mountain in which Moses saw a burning bush.

As a side point, there are a number of new age sources of information that speak of Lucifer as if he is in fact a fallen angel. They speak of Lucifer in different ways and therefore contradict each other. Some of these sources are the words of an allegedly channeled high level spirit being. I find it hard to believe that such a being would believe that a fallen angel named Lucifer exists. For, even if such a being didn’t know about the mistranslation Jerome made, why would it speak of a being that doesn’t exist?

Some people believe that the Book of Revelation supports the fallen angel concept when it speaks of a dragon with seven heads and ten horns (Revelation 12:3). In the form of a letter, Revelation was written by a man named John while He was a prisoner on the Island of Patmos. Christians were going through a lot of difficulty at the time, and John wrote them a letter that was very symbolic so the Romans wouldn’t be able to understand what he was talking about. The seven heads of the dragon have a double meaning. They represent seven hills in Rome and seven kings. They don’t represent a literal description of how an odd looking fallen angel looks. As far as I’m concerned, a dragon with seven heads and ten horns has a stranger look than a man with red skin, a tail, a pitch fork, and just two horns. The ten horns also have a double meaning, they refer to ten future kings and ten provinces of the Roman Empire.

The antichrist that is referred to with the number 666 is Emperor Nero Caesar. In Hebrew, Nero Caesar’s name was Nrwn Qsr – n,e,r,o,n; q,s,r. Archaelogical findings show that a first century Hebrew spelling of Nero’s name provides the value of 666. Some Biblical manuscripts read 616. The difference between 666 and 616 isn’t an accident, because the two aren’t similar in appearance in the original Greek. However, a strong case can be made that John (the author of Revelation), a Jew, used Hebrew in order to spell Nero’s name and resultantly came up with 616. It is hard to believe that it is just mere coincidence that whether you use 666 or 616 it is reasonable to conclude that Revelation 13:18 refers to Nero. There are other reasons for believing that 666 refers to Nero; however, it is beyond the scope of this book to them. I recommend Reverend Kenneth L. Gentry Jr’s article The Beast of Revelation Identified (this article can be found on the internet at www.reformed.org/eschaton/beast).

Some of the Words attributed to Christ in the Book of Revelations show how the names Satan and Devil could very possibly refer to a physical person, not a fallen angel. Consider the following verses from Revelation 3:9-10:

“I know about your suffering and your poverty—but you are rich! I know the blasphemy of those opposing you. They say they are Jews, but they are not, because their synagogue belongs to Satan. Don’t be afraid of what you are about to suffer. The devil will throw some of you into prison to test you. You will suffer for ten days. But if you remain faithful even when facing death, I will give you the crown of life.”

I believe John meant a Roman leader of the time period when he said Satan, not a supernatural being. Even today there are examples of people referring to people as Satan, such as when Saddam Hussein referred to the United States as Satan. Perhaps it wasn’t appropriate for the members of the referred to synagogues to give in to Roman control to the extent they did; however, it is a bit much to contend that they had it in mind to follow a supernatural being known as Satan, and that Satan actually controlled their synagogues. To the extent they were devoted to God and had a higher purpose, God was in their synagogues.

Recoverer's post continued:

Certainly God is wise enough to realize that we often get confused about what divine truth is. This being the case, it is hard to believe that he would abandon somebody’s synagogue so quickly and allow an evil being to take over. Perhaps John’s anger with what was going on during the time period caused him to be overly zealous and accusatory with his words. It is also important to remember that he was required to use symbolic words, so he probably couldn’t name the Roman leader he was speaking about.

Regarding the statement about the devil throwing some people into prison, does it make more sense to conclude that a Roman leader referred to as the Devil will throw some Christians into prison, or that a supernatural being known as the Devil would do so?

Revelation 2:13 reads: “I know that you live in the city where Satan has his throne, yet you have remained faithful to me.” When considering if a supernatural being is referred to with this verse, it is important to note that when the messages to the churches of Ephesus, Smyrna, Pergamum, Thyatria, Sardis, Philadelphia, and Laodicea are given, only Pergamum is named as the city where Satan has his throne. Pergamum is the city where a temple with a statue of the mythological Greek God Zeus was kept. Some scholars believe that Revelation 2:13 refers to this statue. Perhaps John was opposed to the fact that such a temple and statue existed within Pergamum.

Another example of when a supernatural being isn’t referred to when the word Satan is used can be found in Matthew 16:21-23:

“From then on Jesus began to tell his disciples plainly that it was necessary for him to go to Jerusalem, and that he would suffer many terrible things at the hands of the elders, the leading priests, and the teachers of religious law. He would be killed, but on the third day he would be raised from the dead.

But Peter took him aside and began to reprimand him for saying such things. “Heaven forbid, Lord,” he said. “This will never happen to you!”

Jesus turned to Peter and said, “Get away from me, Satan! You are a dangerous trap to me. You are seeing things merely from a human point of view, not from God's.”

I believe it is clear that Peter spoke as he did not because he had evil intent, but because Jesus was dear to him. Since the Bible hadn’t been completely written at the time and wasn’t available to the extent it is today, it is very possible that Peter didn’t understand that it was Jesus’ divine destiny to be crucified. In fact, his statement shows that he didn’t have such an understanding. I find it hard to believe that Jesus actually believed that Peter was Satan or being influenced by Satan. Yet according to Matthew 16:23, Jesus used the name Satan.  Jesus' high regard for Peter is made clear in Matthew 16:13-19:

When Jesus came to the region of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, “Who do people say that the Son of Man is?”

“Well” they replied, “some say John the Baptist, some say Elijah, and others say Jeremiah or one of the other prophets.”

Then he asked them, “but who do you say I am?”

Simon Peter answered, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.”

Jesus replied, “You are blessed, Simon son of John, because my Father in heaven has revealed this to you. You did not learn this from any human being. Now I say to you that you are Peter (which means ‘rock’), and upon this rock I will build my church, and all the powers of hell will not conquer it. And I will give you the keys of the Kingdom of Heaven. Whatever you forbid on earth will be forbidden in heaven, and whatever you permit on earth will be permitted in heaven.”

Then he sternly warned the disciples not to tell anyone that he was the Messiah.

It is interesting to note that there are no verses between when Jesus praised Peter and when Jesus rebuked Peter. I don’t know how accurately Matthew 16:13-23 portrays the chronological order of events; but perhaps it is significant that Jesus’ praise and admonishment of Peter can be found within one range of verses. Perhaps, such an occurrence provides people with an opportunity to consider what precisely the name Satan refers to. Perhaps as Jesus says, “Anyone with ears to hear should listen and understand.”

John 6:70 provides an example of the word Devil being used in a generic way rather than referring to a specific being:

Then Jesus said, “I chose the twelve of you, but one is a devil.” He was speaking of Judas, son of Simon Iscariot, one of the Twelve, who would later betray him.

Some people believe that Matthew 4:1-11 and Luke 4:1-13 support the viewpoint that a being named Satan exists, because Jesus dealt with the Devil when he went into the wilderness and fasted for 40 days. Without getting into why the name Devil is used instead of Satan, I believe it is a mistake to assume that Jesus actually dealt with a supernatural being known by the names of Satan and Devil. For one thing, I believe Jesus’ devotion to holy principles and God was too strong for a period of diabolic temptation to last for 40 days. I believe it would’ve taken Jesus no time at all to deal with such temptation. On the other hand, if he simply dealt with the temptations of his own flesh as symbolized by his fasting, I could see how it might’ve taken him forty days to do so.

It is also possible that the Devil referred to was a Roman leader. This leader understood that a lot of people were loyal to Jesus, and offered Jesus a kingdom or kingdoms he could rule over, if Jesus agreed to side with him. At some point during the years that passed before the gospels of Matthew and Luke were written (Matthew, probably A.D. 60-65, Luke, probably A.D. 60), kingdom or kingdoms could’ve become kingdoms of the World.  Matthew4:8-10 says:

Next the devil took him (Jesus) to the peak of a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory. “I will give it all to you,” he said. “If you will kneel down and worship me.”
“Get out of here, Satan,” Jesus told him. “For the scriptures say, You must worship the Lord your God and serve him only.”

Luke 4:5-8 differs slightly and says:

Then the devil took him up and revealed to him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time. “I will give you the glory of these kingdoms and authority over them,” the devil said, “because they are mine to give to anyone I please. I will give it all to you if you will worship me.”
Jesus replied, “The Scriptures say, You must worship the Lord your God and serve him only.”

Because Jesus was able to see all the kingdoms from the top of a mountain, it is reasonable to conclude that the entire planet earth wasn’t being referred to. The kingdoms referred to might’ve been kingdoms that a Roman leader would have control over. Regarding the possibility that a supernatural being known as the Devil offered these kingdoms, I don’t see how such a being would have the right to do such a thing. If considered in a book of Job kind of way, the Devil would have such a right only if God gave him the right. It is hard to imagine that God would give him such a right. If some people contend that the Devil made an empty promise to Jesus with the hope of getting him to fall and give into temptation, the Devil would have to be one really dumb dude to believe that he could fool Jesus in such a way--so much for supernatural ability.

I don’t believe it is irreverent for me to consider these verses in the manner I did. If anything, I gave Jesus more credit than some interpretations give him. To suggest that it would take Jesus 40 days to overcome diabolical temptation is a bit much. According to the gospels of Matthew and Luke, the Devil tempted Jesus in three ways. Why would it take 40 days to tempt Jesus in just three ways? If one contends that more than three temptations took place, it is just that the Biblical record speaks of only three of the temptations, consider how many temptations would’ve taken place during a 40-day period. It is hard to believe that Jesus would take part in a back and forth exchange with the Devil for 40-days. Surely Jesus would’ve told the Devil to get lost much sooner.

Even if Jesus didn’t tell the Devil to get lost sooner (hypothetically speaking), it would've probably taken the Devil less than 40-days to figure out that Jesus wasn’t going to give in to his ridiculous temptations. On the other hand, if Jesus simply fasted for 40-days in order to deal with the temptations of the flesh, the 40-day period makes sense. It is also possible that a Roman leader dropped by and tried to get Jesus to work on his behalf, and gave up after just three attempts, as recorded.   

There are other verses in the Bible that use the word Satan, Devil, or Demon, yet clearly something other than a supernatural being is meant. It is beyond the scope of this book to speak of every instance where this is so. In his book The Devil – A Biblical Exposition of the Truth – Concerning – That Old Serpent, the Devil and Satan – And – A refutation of the Beliefs Obtaining in the World Regarding Sin and Its Source,  John Epps demonstrates repeatedly that the words Satan and Devil can be interpreted to mean something other than a supernatural being. I’m not suggesting that his arguments are always true, but in many cases they seem accurate.

John Epps wrote that it is illogical to conclude that a word means what people believe it means, if it can be demonstrated repeatedly that it means something else (paraphrased). I believe this is especially so, if a person considers the origin of the words Satan and Devil. People from the lengthy time period when the Bible was written didn’t think of these words in the same way people think of them today. It has already been explained that Satan means adversary. Devil comes from the word Diablos. It means false accuser. A false accuser doesn’t have to be a supernatural being. A person can be referred to as a false accuser.

A free copy of John Epp’s book can be found on the internet. If you're interested, also see Elaine Pagel’s book The Origin of Satan; Neil Forsyth’s book The Old Enemy; and Duncan Heaster's, Ted Russell's and Bev Russell's book, The Real Devil – A Biblical Exploration (a free copy of this book can be found on the internet). Some good internet articles are as follows: The Name “Lucifer” by Frank W. Nelte; How to prove that “Lucifer” is Satan in Isa. 14:12-14 & that the King of Tyre is really Satan in Ezekiel 28:11-19 by Richard Fix; Lucifer – where did the word come from and what is its true meaning? see http://www.lds-mormon.com/lucifer.shtml; Sin and Satan, by Nehemia Gordon; and Demons – What are they and where do they come from Or To find a Demon – Follow the Money? by Richard Fix.

If a person really thinks about it, he is liable to find that the fallen angel concept doesn’t make sense. For one thing, if as some people believe, angels are created by God to be servants of God, could they fall? I for one believe that God is completely capable of creating angels that don’t fall. Some people would suggest that it is a matter of free will. Having a free will doesn’t mean that you have to act like a dummy. It means that you are able to make an intelligent choice when the right data is available. I figure an angel would have access to all kinds of data that would enable it to make the right choice.

An angel would understand that no matter how powerful God created it to be, it is nothing but a little speck compared to the infinity of God. Therefore, it would see no use in trying to take on God and all of the beings who side with him. Also, I believe that what each of us truly wants is to have beauty, happiness, peace and love in our lives. If an angel isn’t able to have these qualities even though it abides with God, it certainly wouldn’t be able to obtain them elsewhere. This being the case, an angel wouldn’t look for them in another location. When I say this I make the not too bold assumption that angels know that there isn’t a place separate from God where true fulfillment can be found.

Some people contend that Lucifer, Satan, the Devil, whoever, went against God because he was jealous of God’s position. I don’t believe an angel would be jealous of God’s position; nevertheless, to make certain that the factors relevant to this discussion are covered, I’ll go ahead and suggest why an angel “might” be jealous in such a way. It would want to feel as if it is loved and respected as much as possible, and then conclude that by being considered greater than God, it would obtain its goal. If you believe that such a possibility sounds ridiculous, then I agree with you, because any angel that is created by God and abides with God would be too wise to believe that it is more important than God and could get other beings to believe that it is.

Also, angels have access to love to an extent that is so complete, there is no way one would need to seek it in a completely idiotic way. Anybody who has experienced a heavenly realm during an experience such as a near death experience clearly understands that all the love a being could ever want is available in a heavenly realm.

Some people would contend that an angel would be jealous of God’s power. The desire for power is hard for me to speak about in a knowledgeable way because fortunately, I haven’t had a problem with such a desire. I figure the desire for power occurs for various reasons. One reason is that people want to feel secure. Some people believe that if they have a lot of power, they can insure their security. I really doubt that angels who abide with God have a problem with security.

Another reason some people want power is because they get into this thing where one person or group of people is against another person or group of people, and they want to insure that they end up on the supposed winning side. Unless they do so, they don’t feel as if things are as they should be. Angels who abide in heaven are all on the winning side, because they abide in a realm of perfection. If one doesn’t believe this is so, where is one hoping to go after one’s life in this World is over?

When you consider human beings, it becomes understandable how some souls become corrupted. This World is filled with many negative influences including our fleshy nature. Things are set up so we have to compete with each other. Obtaining complete and perfect love isn’t an easy thing to do. Therefore, some of us get confused and influenced in a negative way and become negative minded souls for however long. Angels don’t have this problem, because they always have at least one foot, or should I say one ray of light, in heaven. If you spoke to one it would probably say this ray is its heart; an angel’s heart is always in touch with the love of God.

Going by my experiences of divine love, it is incredibly significant to have your heart in contact with the love of God. As I stated before, when I’ve had such contact I felt like I was in contact with the most beautiful thing ever, even though I didn’t see or hear anything. I felt so much gratitude and humility during such experiences, I couldn’t imagine having irreverent and ungracious thoughts towards God. I figure Angels see things the same way I see them, perhaps even more so.

The Book of Revelation states that when the dragon swept its tail a third of angels came with him (Revelation 12:4). If one interprets this literally, then despite all of the factors I wrote about above, either one third of angels were forced to fall, which is hard to believe since God and his angels wouldn’t allow such a thing to happen, or one third of angels chose to fall. It is hard to figure why so many angels who abided in the glory of heaven and knew about God’s infinite power would choose to fall. If they could fall, what would prevent any of us from falling once we find our way to heaven? Isn’t heaven supposed to be a place of eternal attainment?[make a footnote about the literal meaning of a third of angels falling.]

Even if an angel did start to fall, I figure God would be well aware of this fact, and he and his angels would probably do all they could to help this angel. Even if they didn’t, the more an angel fell, the farther it would find itself from God’s love and power. When things are considered in vibratory rate terms, its vibratory rate would decrease. After a while it wouldn’t be any different than a former human spirit that has taken on a negative way of existence.

I believe the above paragraph is significant, if one considers how some people think of Satan as a being who is really powerful. If everything comes from God, where would a Satan like being get power from? It doesn’t make sense to conclude that God would give such a being power. If you agree with what I said about fallen angels, including the parts about Lucifer and the dragon spoken of in the Book of Revelation, you probably don’t believe that the fallen angel explanation provides an answer for how a Satan like being could have a lot of power.

I didn’t limit my investigation of whether or not a being named Satan exists to intellectual inquiry. I also made contact with my divine spirit guidance and found out this way. I was provided with a number of experiences and received a number of messages which told me that such a being doesn’t exist. I share some of these experiences and messages in the next chapter. Perhaps you can ask your divine helper/helpers what they have to say about the matter. Perhaps you’ll receive the answer in the form of a dream, out of body experience, or through a symbolic visual message. Whatever the case, I believe that divine beings such as God and Christ really appreciate it when we try to find out for ourselves, rather than rely on the inaccurate interpretations of other people. The last thing this World needs is unnecessary fear. When it comes to the unfriendly beings that exist, we’ll find ourselves in a much more advantageous position to deal with them if we deal with them as they actually exist, rather than according to inaccurate interpretations.

My thoughts are synced in throughout your write-up:


recoverer wrote on Jan 2^nd, 2010 at 4:26pm:

I’ll start out by saying that I don’t believe that a being named Satan exists. I believe this for a number of reasons I’ll speak about in a little while. This doesn’t mean that I also believe that there is no such thing as unfriendly spirits. I have various reasons for believing that they exist. Some of them are spirits who used to be human and for whatever reason haven’t moved on to the light. Some might have origins that aren’t human. It’s a big universe out there. Whatever the case, if the human race is going to deal with the problem of unfriendly spirits in the best way possible, it is important to find out what’s true beyond a false belief system. One of the reasons some people aren’t willing to question if Satan actually exists, is because they listen to the statement, “One of Satan’s biggest tricks is getting people to believe that he doesn’t exist.” I don’t know who the first person to state this platitude is, but it certainly doesn’t come from the Bible. A mythical being doesn’t become a reality, simply because somebody makes a statement that makes it so people are afraid to question the supposed reality of this being. If a person allows himself (or herself) to be influenced in such a way, he allows an unexamined belief system of another person to determine what he believes.[QUOTE] Okay? I don't think anyone ever tried to argue the point that a mythical being did become a reality because someone made a statement saying people should be afraid to question its reality. I don't really get what you're trying to say here... that Satan doesn't exist because everyone who believes he does say that those who don't believe in him are playing right into his hand? I don't get how this makes sense, but whatever, we have a long road to go -- moving onward! recoverer wrote on Jan 2nd, 2010 at 4:26pm: The person who made up the Satan trick statement probably didn’t take the time to thoroughly determine if such a being actually exists. It is very significant to add that a person doesn’t need to believe in a being named Satan, in order to be wary of unfriendly influences. In whatever manner unfriendly influences exist, whether from deceptive spirits, misleading people, or even aspects of a person’s own mind, a person needs to listen to his intelligence, common sense, heart and conscience. Therefore, there is no need to conclude that one gives into evil if one questions the existence of Satan. I don't know why you're placing so much spotlight on the person who came up with the Devil's greatest trick quote. I admit, it's a great quote, but bringing them up in an argument that the Devil doesn't exist -- it's just unproductive. Suggesting that one is giving into evil when questioning the existence of Satan is pushing it as well. Where does it say this? I think every single one of us at one point in time questioned his existence and along with whatever helped mold our core beliefs, we came to a solid decision we believed in. recoverer wrote on Jan 2nd, 2010 at 4:26pm: One of the problems with relying on a belief system that doesn’t accurately represent how things are, is that people often attribute more power to unfriendly spirits than they have. Going by my experiences, it is essential that unfriendly spirits be stood up to with courage. If we believe that evil spirit beings exist that have the power to overtake us regardless of what we want, how much courage will we have if confronted by an unfriendly spirit? On the other hand, if we clearly understand that God has set things up so that any person who chooses to live according to love and goodness can’t have his free will infringed upon by an unfriendly spirit, we will be more likely to have the courage to stand up to an unfriendly spirit. In fact, if a person believes that an unfriendly spirit has the ability to get the best of him; his belief might provide the key that empowers the unfriendly spirit. Belief can be a powerful thing. Therefore, it is essential that we seek to empower people rather than unfriendly spirits. What this has to do with proving the non-existence of Satan, I have no idea. You mention people who "rely on a belief system that doesn't accurately reflect how things are" at one point. This is troubling to me, simply for the fact that even though you may have had conscious experiences in the "after life", how does this mean that you have somehow been given the answer to whether the Devil exists or not? Not to be mean or anything, but why in the world would he expend any energy in revealing himself to you in your little OBE's? The fact that you talk about a belief system that doesn't accurately reflect how things are when you yourself have only likely seen but a small portion of the overall picture, I just can't come to grips with that at all. recoverer wrote on Jan 2nd, 2010 at 4:26pm: Another problem with concluding that unfriendly spirits have more power than they have is that this conclusion causes some people to become so afraid that they end up creating imaginary demons. This matter will be discussed later. Another problem with defining unfriendly spirits in a particular way without having an accurate understanding of their nature, is that our lack of understanding will make it difficult to determine the most effective way to deal with them (At this point I have factors other than fear in mind). For example, if we assume that an unfriendly spirit is a demon that is beyond being redeemed, we won’t be inclined to interact with it in a manner that inspires it to change its way and move on to the light. As a result, even if we get it to stop troubling a particular person, it might find another person to trouble. Also, an opportunity to help a child of God who is innately divine and temporarily confused won’t be taken advantage of. I believe that if a person wants to live according to love and divine will, this later point can’t be disregarded. So you suggest that you have some kind of accurate understanding of evil spirits nature... why? Because you may have encountered some here and there in your little OBE adventures? Can you please elaborate on this some more? I'm not saying that it would be completely unrealistic for a person to completely understand the motives and inner spiritly-psychological workings of an evil spirit based on brief encounters with them during an out of body experience, but I really, really doubt it. Something tells me that there's a lot of layer and confusing depth to what exactly makes an evil spirit an evil spirit. recoverer wrote on Jan 2nd, 2010 at 4:26pm: Regarding the statement that unfriendly spirits are confused, I don’t believe a soul of any kind would choose darkness over light if it wasn’t confused in some way. I believe this is so, because there is no way a clear thinking and wise soul would choose darkness over God’s love and light. Does Satan exist? People including myself have tried to determine if the Biblical perspective including its history supports the concept of Satan, and have found that it doesn’t, despite the frequent usage of the names Satan, Devil, Lucifer, or adversary. Some people believe that the serpent who talked Eve into picking and eating an apple from a tree God said is off limits, was Satan. Even if one takes the Garden of Eden story literally, there is no basis for concluding that the serpent was Satan. When the story of the Garden of Eden was written the concept of Satan didn’t exist. The serpent was one of the animals God had created. This serpent had no relation to the fallen angel explanation of Satan’s origin that some people believe in. The meaning of the Garden of Eden story has been interpreted in different ways. One possible interpretation is that all souls who become human originally existed in a pure state, because this is how God created them. When these souls make use of human bodies the negative influences they are exposed to corrupt them in varying ways. These are the influences Paul speaks about in Romans 7:7-25. I’m talking about the self-defense instinct that the human race and animals have. This instinct is all about me, myself, and I. Sigmund Freud referred to this self-centered part of our self as the Id. I believe the divine powers that be purposely created such an instinct to help us survive as we partake in the competitive nature of this World, and so we can learn about psychological contrast. For example, how can we know about humility without knowing about arrogance? Other innate-brain-based programs and physiological attributes are a part of this process such as our sex drive; drive to eat; over two hundred kinds of molecules that play a part in causing us to experience emotions such as hate, anger, and fear (not all emotions are negative); and hormones that can influence us in a negative way, as when testosterone plays a role in a person becoming overly aggressive.  Just as the divine powers that be were able to create animals so they have the innate ability to do things such as migrate, spin spider webs, build ant colonies, build bee hives, weave bird nests and build beaver dams without having to attend a school that teaches such a thing; the divine powers that be were able to create the human organism so some basic ways of functioning are in place. These are the words Paul used when he spoke about the influence of the flesh. From Romans 7:7-25: “God’s Law Reveals Our Sin” "Well then, am I suggesting that the law of God is sinful? Of course not! In fact, it was the law that showed me my sin. I would never have known that coveting is wrong if the law had not said, “You must not covet.” But sin used this command to arouse all kinds of covetous desires within me! If there were no law, sin would not have that power. At one time I lived without understanding the law. But when I learned the command not to covet, for instance, the power of sin came to life, and I died. So I discovered that the law’s spiritual death instead. Sin took advantage of those commands and deceived me; it used the commands to kill me. But still, the law itself is holy, and its commands are holy and right and good. But how can that be? Did the law, which is good, cause my death? Of course not! Sin used what was good to bring about my condemnation to death. So we can see how terrible sin really is. It uses God’s good commands for its own evil purposes. Struggling with Sin. So the trouble is not with the law, for it is spiritual and good. The trouble is with me, for I am all too human, a slave to sin. I don’t really understand myself, for I want to do what is right, but I don’t do it. Instead, I do what I hate. But if I know that what I am doing is wrong, this shows that I agree that the law is good. So I am not the one doing wrong, it is sin living in me that does it. And I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. I want to do what is right, but I can’t. I want to do what is good, but I don’t. I don’t want to do what is wrong, but I do it anyway. But if I do what I don’t want to do, I am not really the one doing the wrong; it is sin living in me that does it. I have discovered this principle of life—that when I want to do what is right, I inevitably do what is wrong. I love God’s law with all my heart. But there is another power within me that is at war with my mind. This power makes me a slave to the sin that is still within me. Oh, what a miserable person I am! Who will free me from this life that is dominated by sin and death? Thank God! The answer is to Jesus Christ our lord. So you see how it is: In my mind I really want to obey God’s law, but because of my sinful nature I am a slave to sin.” Rather than using terms such as self-defense instinct, sex-drive, etc., Paul uses the word sin. I believe that if he lived today he might speak of the body-based drives that make it difficult to live our lives in a holy way, in a modern way, rather than making use of the word sin. That is of course if he didn’t limit himself to a Biblical way of explaining things. I figure God and Christ have no problem with us making use of 21st century language, as long as we use it with good intentions. Clever use of using a Scripture verse to help support your theory and lend it credence. Except for the fact that the verse does absolutely nothing to help prove that Satan doesn't exist. Also, you misunderstood what Romans 7:7-25 is actually talking about. Paul is talking about what happens when people knowingly sin and what it does to them; he also talks about how even when people do good things according to the Law of God, evil influences are always there to tempt them. If anything, this verse actually helps support the fact that Satan exists as it suggests that all people who do good and live according to the Word of God are tempted and tested by evil. Nice try, though. recoverer wrote on Jan 2nd, 2010 at 4:26pm: It is hard to imagine that an infinitely wise and loving God would sentence all of mankind to a non-Eden like existence because one person decided to eat an apple. Being all knowing as he is, he would certainly know if Eve would be able to resist eating an apple. If Eve’s state of mind existed in a manner where it wasn’t certain if she could resist temptation, why would God be so strict with her? I find it hard to believe that God would be so strict and unforgiving with a person who hadn’t had the chance to develop the wisdom that would enable her to choose correctly. If a person contends that God provided Eve with the necessary knowledge to choose wisely, then why didn’t she do so? Either God provided her with the knowledge she needed or he didn’t. Adam and Eve had the life. They lived in relative paradise and were given one simple and easy to understand rule. Since we've already started to reference the Scriptures, I will gladly do so here. From Genesis 3:2-3: " 2 The woman said to the serpent, "We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden, 3 but God did say, 'You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.' " Uh, hello? Call me crazy, but that's quite easily the most basic and easily understandable statement I think I've ever read. Eve chose to disobey God because of the serpent who was in her ear the entire time, whispering sweet nothings about how nothing bad at all would happen if she ate from the tree that God said she would die if she ate from. Who do you think this serpent was, just some wily, disobedient talking serpent? Seriously, I would be fascinated to hear your explanations of just what exactly this serpent was or what it was being controlled by. I highly doubt all the serpents in the Garden of Eden could talk and were blatantly disobedient and evil. But I mean, if that's what you believe, then that's what you believe. recoverer wrote on Jan 2nd, 2010 at 4:26pm: Perhaps God hopes that we will use the intelligence he has given us to find a less literal explanation for what the story of Eve’s temptation symbolizes. The moment when souls temporarily decided to become human, so they could learn the lessons that being human provides. Perhaps God didn’t force us to do so--we had a choice. Perhaps God provided a warning that was loving-in-nature, a statement in fact, not a threat. A test framework just doesn’t make sense because an all-knowing God wouldn’t need to conduct a test. He gave us free will to do what we would with ourselves and our actions. Are you trying to say that Eve ate the apple from the tree in which she was strictly forbidden to eat from because... she knew that it would culminate in some metaphysical transformation into something that could ultimately learn lessons to better understand itself? Because if so, then that sounds like B-list science fiction at best. recoverer wrote on Jan 2nd, 2010 at 4:26pm: The story told in Numbers 22 provides one of many examples of how the word Satan means something other than the red-skinned, horned being some people imagine (John Milton brought this fictional image into human consciousness with his story Paradise Lost). A man named Balak asked a man named Bil’am to meet him so he could curse Israel. God instructed Bil’am not to do so. Bil’am disobeyed God’s command and traveled on a donkey to meet Balak. God sent an angel referred to as Satan (in the Hebrew translation) to stop Bil’am from doing so. Because this angel served the purpose of being an adversary to Bil’am (while at the same time serving God), it was referred to as a Satan. Another adversary/satan/devil is written about in the book of Job. This being paid a visit to heaven and even though God is all knowing, God asked it where it came from. Satan responded: “I have been patrolling the earth, watching everything that goes on.” God asked, “Have you noticed my servant Job? He is the finest man in all the earth. He is blameless—a man of complete integrity. He fears God and stays away from evil.” Satan responded: “Yes, but Job has good reason to fear God. You have always put a wall of protection around him and his home and his property. You have made him prosper in everything he does. Look how rich he is. But reach out and take everything he has, and he will surely curse you to your face!” (Job 1:6-11) To make a long story short, according to the Book of Job, God allowed Satan to do all kinds of negative things to Job including killing many of his servants, his seven sons and his three daughters (Job 1:13-19), in order to prove to Satan that there is one man who fears him (God). God didn't let Satan do negative things to Job so that it would prove that Job feared Him, He let Satan do all those negative things to him to prove that Job's faith was stronger than Satan's temptations. To say otherwise is to try and take the verses out of context, which is apparently something you enjoy doing based on your next statement: recoverer wrote on Jan 2nd, 2010 at 4:26pm: I believe the story of Job is symbolic rather than literal and serves the purpose of instructing people to maintain love and faith in God even when they experience difficult times. Therefore the story does nothing to prove the existence of an adversary named Satan. So you use the story of the Garden of Eden as a basis for explaining away that Satan doesn't exist, yet at the first chance you downplay the story of Job as symbolic and not literal? How convenient. [quote author=5740464A5340574057250 link=1262386184/18#18 date=1262464000]I believe the story isn’t literal for several reasons: 1.    If God is all-knowing, then certainly he would know about the existence of an adversary who patrolled the earth. Therefore, it doesn’t make sense to conclude that God had to ask such a being where it came from. 2.    God wouldn’t have the need to prove something to a being that is as evil as Satan is considered to be. 3.    Even if God did feel compelled to prove something to Satan, I don’t believe that in order to do so he would allow a being to do all of the negative things Job’s adversary supposedly did. 4.    People who have made contact with the spirit World have found that beings vibrate at different rates according to how spiritually developed they are. In order to make it to heaven, a being would have to vibrate at a fast rate. The ability to vibrate at a fast rate has a lot to do with how much a being lives according to love. There is no way a being as negative as Satan is believed to be would vibrate fast enough to find his way to heaven. Even if a person doesn’t believe in the vibratory rate viewpoint, if as some people believe Satan is an angel who was expelled from heaven, would he be allowed to re-enter heaven so he could speak to God about Job? Even if there are some things God doesn’t know about, wouldn’t he know about an angel who was expelled from heaven? If somebody contends that I’m being too literal when it comes to God not knowing where Satan came from, please remember that I’m contending that the story of a being who afflicted Job is symbolic, not literal.

1. You're grasping for straws here, friend. What better way to prove to Satan that he was wrong then to have him openly vocal of the entire situation? He also could have asked him to see if he would lie, which he probably did often.
2. Why? Satan was being openly disobedient and questioning everything that God was and all He stood for. Being such an egotistical being, the perfect way to put him in his place was to prove to him, with no doubts what-so-ever, that he was wrong.
3. Why? God is all-knowing (you even said so yourself) and knew that Job would remain faithful.
4. The specifics of their conversation aren't discussed, but it's doubtful that Satan would be allowed to enter and bask in the paradise of Heaven. Has it occurred to you that perhaps God met him at the gates of Heaven and they had their discussion there?

(Continued...)


recoverer wrote on Jan 2^nd, 2010 at 4:26pm:

Even if a person decides to believe that the Book of Job is about events that actually took place, it is significant to note that the Adversary was able to do the negative things it did only after God gave it permission to do so. This way of viewing Satan is clearly different than the belief that Satan and his demons mess with people without God’s permission. I don’t believe it is reasonable to conclude that after the Job affair God decided to change his policy and allow Satan to do whatever he wants. What would be the point of such a decision? Certainly we have enough negative influences to contend with without having Satan and his supposed demons added to the formula. For example, the flesh-oriented influences Paul spoke about, the influences of our environment, and the manner in which unfriendly beings do exist.

Satan could have tried to do something to Job without permission, but God would have likely ensured there were angels there to help combat this. Satan has influence over everything in the world and there is a constant spiritual battle going on behind the scenes each and every day. Here's a verse from 1 Peter 5:8:

"Be of sober spirit, be on the alert. Your adversary, the devil, prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour."

Kind of hard to dispute this one, no?

I'll get to the rest of your write-up later, I have some other work-related things to attend to until then. And despite disagreeing with practically everything that you've said, please know that I mean no disrespect and am instead attempting to reveal the Truth to you. Take care!

Quote:

How is that illogical? Or rather, how is it any more illogical than thinking that one's separation from their "love source" is the cause of famines, slaughter and the abortion of newborn babies? To call one logical and the other illogical is the product of sheer ignorance.

It is logical that negativity is caused by separation from one's inner being/love for a couple reasons.  One, and the most important, is personal experience.  I have witnessed throughout my life how this separation has caused pain and hardships.  It wasn't until I reestabilshed a conscious connection with my inner self that this negativity ended, and my life took a turn for the better.  In fact, my situation improved so much that I actually never imagined it could be this good.  It is no coincidence that this postive change was facilitated by my new spiritual outlook.  Many other people I know and know of have undergone this same change.

The other reason it is logical requires a breakdown of the actual negative action.  When looking at any negative act, it can always be broken down to a belief that one had which caused them to commit the misdeed.  In virtually every case of an "evil" action, it is clear that the one acting it out had some sort of negative/false belief which caused the action.  When one lives in a state of spiritual unity with their higher being, their thoughts consist of love, for love is the nature of the higher self.  I have learned this through my experience and accounts of many, many others.  So it is logical to say that if negativity is caused by negative and false beliefs, and that when one is in touch with their true spiritual nature they live in a state of love, and that love and negativity/falseness cannot exist together(for they are polar opposites), then logically those under a negative influence are not living in a state of oneness with there inner being, for if they were, their thoughts would not be negative in nature, but would instead be loving.

Now, please, humor me.  Where is the logic in the idea that "satan" causes the negativity in the world, and what is your personal experience which proved to yourself that "satan" exists? 

I Am Dude wrote on Jan 2^nd, 2010 at 6:19pm:

Quote: How is that illogical? Or rather, how is it any more illogical than thinking that one's separation from their "love source" is the cause of famines, slaughter and the abortion of newborn babies? To call one logical and the other illogical is the product of sheer ignorance. It is logical that negativity is caused by separation from one's inner being/love for a couple reasons.  One, and the most important, is personal experience.  I have witnessed throughout my life how this separation has caused pain and hardships.  It wasn't until I reestabilshed a conscious connection with my inner self that this negativity ended, and my life took a turn for the better.  In fact, my situation improved so much that I actually never imagined it could be this good.  It is no coincidence that this postive change was facilitated by my new spiritual outlook.  Many other people I know and know of have undergone this same change.

Funny, that sounds familiar. Oh, that's right, it's exactly what has happened to me personally thanks to being imbued with the Holy Spirit. Minus the whole part about being blind to all the negativity and corruption in this world...


I Am Dude wrote on Jan 2^nd, 2010 at 6:19pm:

The other reason it is logical requires a breakdown of the actual negative action.  When looking at any negative act, it can always be broken down to a belief that one had which caused them to commit the misdeed.  In virtually every case of an "evil" action, it is clear that the one acting it out had some sort of negative/false belief which caused the action.  When one lives in a state of spiritual unity with their higher being, their thoughts consist of love, for love is the nature of the higher self.  I have learned this through my experience and accounts of many, many others.  So it is logical to say that if negativity is caused by negative and false beliefs, and that when one is in touch with their true spiritual nature they live in a state of love, and that love and negativity/falseness cannot exist together(for they are polar opposites), then logically those under a negative influence are not living in a state of oneness with there inner being, for if they were, their thoughts would not be negative in nature, but would instead be loving.

The negative/false belief that fuels negativity is sin. Going on a tangent though, are you saying that the only way for people to truly love is to somehow become in tune with their out of body conscience self? Although there's a lot of sin and evil in the world, there's also a lot of love. I doubt that every single act of love out there is committed by those with the same warped belief systems as you.


I Am Dude wrote on Jan 2^nd, 2010 at 6:19pm:

Now, please, humor me.  Where is the logic in the idea that "satan" causes the negativity in the world, and what is your personal experience which proved to yourself that "satan" exists?

Although I think your explanation of why you think there's negativity in the world is absolute garbage and about as far from a logical, coherent thought that there is, I will of course humor you and try and lay it out for you -- despite the fact that your eyes are seemingly tightly closed in regards to the Truth.

On the subject of how I know for certain that there is indeed a devilish being behind the scenes assisting with all of the "negativity", let me tell you a little story.

One of my older brothers, despite not being the most godly person when he was younger, is a great person. He's caring, he's thoughtful and he's always been there as an older brother should be when I needed one.

He'd never delved in what could be deemed the occult or anything up until this point in the story I'm telling, but he'd also never delved too deeply into anything you could call religious, either. Because of this and a variety of other factors, he took the less-than-savory path of drugs at some point. While everyone enslaved in the dangerous and tragic game of drugs are always open to seeing the light -- at least in regards to their situation -- and getting out of it (no matter the particular belief system or reason), there are still a lot of unsavory and very "negative" people within it.

To make a long story short, my brother ended up meeting some people and moving in with them into a beach house. Drugs were used and belief systems imposed upon him. Fast forward a few months later and my family gets a call from a psych-hospital. Apparently my brother had traveled to a major city via its train system, stripped down to his boxers and began screaming that the End of the World was imminent. Classic quack job stuff, basically. My other brother, his friend and I immediately made the trip to go out and see him. We were certain that the drugs were to blame and that he'd obviously gotten involved with the wrong people.

As we entered the room that he was in, upon looking at him, I could immediately tell that something was very wrong. This was my brother in person, but this was not my brother that I'd known my whole life. He was speaking nonsense, doing push-ups and flashing each of us a glaring stare that shook me to the bone. It literally shakes me up just thinking about it. His eyes -- it remains to this day the single most frightening thing that I have ever had the displeasure of experiencing. Although in appearance he was just as my brother had once looked, albeit a bit gaunter/thinner, his eyes... I have never seen another pair of eyes since that day and I hope I never will. There was an evil in control of my brother somehow and I am absolutely certain of this. I had never been so petrified than the moment he first gazed deep into my own eyes and I could see immediately that there was something sinister and benevolent behind them. Almost mocking.

I'm not a big crier -- and neither was my other brother that I traveled to the hospital with -- but we both were in tears practically the entire way home. He had never been a religious type and although I don't know if he sensed the evil presence within our brother at the hospital, all he kept saying over and over was, "That wasn't our brother... that wasn't our brother..." and shaking his head in disbelief.

To make a long story short, I later talked with my brother about this event several years later and he explained to me exactly what I had expected. He had begun hearing voices and had become -- while he didn't use the word "possessed" -- in tune with some type of spirit whose intentions and essence were pure evil. He told me that he was scared to the bone throughout the whole ordeal and that much of it passed by like in a blur, but several weeks after my other brother and I had visited him in the hospital, he suddenly got the idea/urge to ask for our Lord God's help in the ordeal. Instantly the "spirit" left him and from that day forward, my brother is one of the most spiritual people you'll ever meet. And with good reason!

So, to humor you my friend, this is how I unfortunately came up close and personal with pure evil. It's out there and it can manifest itself in our physical world if we're not careful. There is no doubt in my mind what-so-ever that they have the same, if not more powerful abilities in the "spiritual/after life" realm that you all travel within. Do  you all really think that if someone did fall victim to one of these evil spirits in the "after life" realm, they would come on here and speak about it? Uh, I doubt it. Just because you personally haven't experienced it doesn't mean that the threat for it to happen at any time isn't there. If we agree on nothing else, please, just be careful and know that if you ever do get into some trouble which you aren't able to get out of, you will be able to get out of it by calling upon our Lord God and his Son, Jesus Christ.

Does this story directly prove my belief that Satan exists? Of course not. It's all but certain that the thing that was in at least a partial possession of my brother at that time was not Satan, the Devil, Lucifer or whatever it is you wish to call him (or not call/believe in him) himself. But I'm certain that he had a hand in it and that he acts as the hierarchy for the many roaming evil spirits that exist in the spiritual realm all over. It only makes sense that there is some kind of order, even on the demonic side, rather than a bunch of random and directionless evil souls roaming all over the place. They all have a purpose and they act in such a way as to help achieve Satan's overall goals.

May God bless you and protect you in all of your "adventures". I pray that through some sequence of events, you will come upon a situation in which the Truth can be presented to you in a way that will make sense to you. Thanks for reading.

Also, on an unrelated sidenote OutOfBodyDude, your signature seems to abruptly cut off where I don't think it should.

Of course, it could be some after life/phase walker inside joke/knowledge point or something that I'm not aware of, but from my perspective, I think it just got cut off. Just wanted to let you know so you could fix it (if you want)! :)

You come off so condescending as if you have the lock on this "Truth" you speak of.

Instead of being open, falsely claiming that you were in the beginning, seems like you're only here to proselytize.

supermodel wrote on Jan 2^nd, 2010 at 7:19pm:

You come off so condescending as if you have the lock on this "Truth" you speak of. Instead of being open, falsely claiming that you were in the beginning, seems like you're only here to proselytize.

When did I say that I was "in the beginning"? All of the "Truth" that I speak of (thank you for capitalizing it! :) ) comes from the study of the Scripture that is the Word of God. As you might of noticed, I didn't deem it appropriate to force such quotations of the Scriptures until Recoverer opted to use them.

To the best of my knowledge, I've been quite compassionate and caring while trying to wake you all up from the false path you are on. However, it seems as if everything you've said to me has been mocking and full of spite. From a belief system that suggests you all "truly" know love, you've certainly shown quite the opposite of what I deem "love" here on these forums.

Regardless, it is your right and freedom to openly disagree with everything that I say. If you do feel that I was condescending in a hurtful way though, and have not already apologized for it, then please feel free to bring it to my attention and I will give it strong consideration. It is simply not in my nature to act or behave in such a way.

Thanks!

Fine. I'll spell it out for you.

"You all realize that you're potentially dabbling in the dens of demons with this stuff, right? Now, while I obviously have some different viewpoints on what you're all believing and experiencing with this here stuff, I'm certainly not going to be ignorant and say "I'm right, you're wrong." That's just not how I do things! So please just bear with me to the end and read this through."

You pretend that you want to have an honest discussion when all you want to do is preach.
You're not compassionate, you're condescending.

You want to wake us up? Please Alarm Clock. Someone needs to hit  the snooze button.

And I say that with love....
Sending you lots of PUL... :)

supermodel wrote on Jan 2^nd, 2010 at 7:38pm:

Fine. I'll spell it out for you. "You all realize that you're potentially dabbling in the dens of demons with this stuff, right? Now, while I obviously have some different viewpoints on what you're all believing and experiencing with this here stuff, I'm certainly not going to be ignorant and say "I'm right, you're wrong." That's just not how I do things! So please just bear with me to the end and read this through." You pretend that you want to have an honest discussion when all you want to do is preach. You're not compassionate, you're condescending. You want to wake us up? Please Alarm Clock. Someone needs to hit  the snooze button. And I say that with love.... Sending you lots of PUL... :)

I do admit that some of the things that I posted in the beginning may have been insensitive. And for that, I sincerely apologize.

On a somewhat related and hopeful topic, it seems we both share somewhat of a tendency to try and insert witty humor into our posts. The snooze button thing gave me a smirk, I won't lie. But that also reminds me, you can all call me by my first name: Jay. Being called Alarm Clock has become far too weird for me it seems... :P

Nice to meet you Jay.

supermodel wrote on Jan 2^nd, 2010 at 7:45pm:

Nice to meet you Jay.

And you, Supermodel.

If you could, can you explain exactly what PUL is? Like, what it stands for. I can gather a basic understanding of it from how its been used on here but I'd like to become as knowledgeable as I can about everything as to avoid potential toe-stepping in the future. Also, for what it's worth, I will be praying for you as well. Basically, the Christian alternative to whatever this specific PUL is. :)

PUL is Pure Unconditional Love...there is no alternative. The title really speaks for itself. I'm still really new at this so I'll try to explain.

PUL is not judging someone, its not condemning. All is forgiven. No expectations. No fear. No damnation.

Just unconditional love.

Alarm Clock:

I don't believe it would serve much of a purpose for us to go back and forth on whether or not an evil being named Satan exists. In a way it is irrevelant, because this issue doesn't determine if unfriendly spirits exist. They can exist even if a being named Satan doesn't exist.

I believe what's most important is that we always have a choice.  We can choose light over darkness if we want. When people ask Christ for help they choose light. I believe Christ can help people because he has helped me.

I won't get into all of the details, but I've had a number of experiences which led to the conclusion that it is fine to ask for divine help, but we also need to have confidence in ourselves. I don't mean this in a egotistical sense. Each of is powerful in that we can choose to connect t o love and divine will rather than negativity.

I believe it is a mistake to be so afraid of unfriendly spirit influences that we allow our fear to prevent us from making contact with friendly spirits. I and other people have found through extensive experience that it is possible to make contact with friendly spirits. The best way to become certain of this is to do so.

You spoke of your holy spirit experience. When you had such an experience did you have any doubt that you were in contact with something that is divine? I figure your answer is, "no," with that in mind, I'll state it is possible to make contact with spirit beings in a manner where you are certain you are making contact with friendly spirits.

I'm very happy that I made contact with friendly spirits because doing so enables me to do spirit work that I otherwise wouldn't be able to do. If everybody chose to allow unfriendly spirits to intimidate them into not making contact with the spirit World, people wouldn't make contact with friendly spirits, and that would be a shame in more than one way.

Regarding your brother, I don't know what specifically happened to him, but is known that drug and  alcohol usage can weaken a person's energy field and make spirit invasion more possible. George Ritchie speaks of this in his first book. When Jesus showed him around during his near death experience,  Jesus took him to a bar and he saw the spirits of deceased alcoholics penetrate the energy fields of people "after" they passed out.

Just found this and thought it might be interesting to some of you. It maps out what I was debating earlier (source: http://bible.org/seriespage/survey-bible-doctrine-angels-satan-demons):

The Doctrine of Satan. The Existence of Satan

A. Seven Old Testament books and every New Testament writer refer to Satan.

B. Jesus referred to Satan (Matt.13:39; Luke 10:18; 11:18).

II. The Personality and Names of Satan

A. Personality  He has intellect (2 Cor.11:3), emotions (Rev.12:17) and will (2 Tim.2:26.

B. Names  He is called Satan, the Devil (slanderer), Lucifer (son of the morning), Beelzebub (Lord of the flies  Matt.12:24), and Belial (lawless  2 Cor.6:15), the evil one (1 John 5:19), the tempter (1 Thess.3:5), the prince of this world (John 12:31), the god of this age (2 Cor.4:4), the prince of the power of the air (Eph.2:2), the accuser of the brethren (Rev.12:10), and angel of light (false light  2 Cor.11:14), a serpent (Rev.12:9), and a dragon (Rev.12:3).

III. The Nature of Satan

A. He is a created angelic being. He was created as part of the angelic realm (Eph.6:11,12; Ezek.24:18) and was the highest in rank of them all (Ezek.28:12-14).

B. He is an enemy of righteousness. He is a murderer (John 8:44), a liar (John 8:44), and accuser (Rev.12:10) and our adversary (1 Pet.5:8).

C. He is a limited creature. He is limited by God (Job.1:12). He is not God equal (1 John 4:4). He is not omniscient, omnipotent or infinite in any way. Believers with God help can resist him (James 4:7).

IV. The Fall of Satan

Key Passages  Ezekiel 28; Isaiah 14

A. Ezekiel 28:11-19 is a prophetic lamentation over the œKing of Tyre who is described in language that fits Satan fall and not a mere human king. Satan is distinguished form the human ruler of Tyre in 28:2 (œprince/ruler) and called a œking in 28:12 (Not even Israel rulers were called œKing). Though Tyre had a human œruler, Satan was the real œKing behind that wicked kingdom.

B. His attributes  Moral perfection (v.12) Sinless at his creation until his fall (v.15)

C. His appearance  Perfect in beauty (v.12b,13)

1. His privileges  Free access to the garden of Eden (v.12) and to God holy mountain (= God presence â.14)

2. His rank  œCherub (vs.14,16)

3. His judgment

a. Cast out of the mountain of God (v.16, cf. Rev12:4)

b. Cast to the ground (v.17)

c. Consumed by fire (v.18, cf. Rev.20:10)

D. Isaiah 14:12-15 also seems to describe Satan fall. Satan is manifest here by the king of Babylon. As in Ezekiel 28, Satan is pictured here as the real œking behind the wicked human kingdom of Babylon.

1. The imagery of a œstar and œfalling from heaven (v.12) suggests a supernatural fulfillment. œStars (v.12,13) are symbolic of the angelic realm elsewhere (Job 38:6,7; Rev.12:4).

2. The five œI will of vss. 13 & 14 are literally true of Satan and only metaphorically true of Babylon king. This ultimate form of pride (œI will be like the Most High â.14) fits the New Testament description of Satan fall 1 Tim.3:6.

V. The Activity of Satan

Satan is seeking to oppose God plan by promoting evil in every way possible.

A. Indirect Activity  He works indirectly through the world (in which he has great freedom and power  John 12:31; 1 John 5:19) and the flesh (Gal.5:19-21). The world, the flesh and the devil are not three separate enemies of the Christian. Rather Satan works through the evil world system (1 John 2:13-15) to exploit the fleshly nature that still wars within us (Rom.7:18; Gal.5:19-21).



Diagram: Norm Geisler

B. Direct Activity  He works directly by deception, temptation, attack and possession.

1. In Christ ministry

a. He tempted Christ (Matt.4:1-11).

b. He attempted to thwart Christ work (John 8:44; Matt.16:23; Luke 22:31).

c. He possessed Judas to accomplish the betrayal (John 13:27).

2. In unbelievers

a. He blinds their minds to hinder their understanding of the gospel (2 Cor.4:4).

b. When the gospel is heard or understood, he tries to hinder its effect (Luke 8:12).

c. He uses persecution (Rev.2:10) and false religions (Rev.2:13) to hinder the effect of the gospel.

3. In believers

a. He tempts believers (to pride  1 Chron.21:1-8; to materialism  John 2:15; James 5:1-7; to immorality  1 Cor.7:5; to lie  Acts 5:3; to discouragement  1 Pet.5:6-10; to be unforgiving  2 Cor.2:10,11 etc.).

b. He hinders the ministries of believers (1 Thess.2:18; Rev.2:10).

c. He promotes false teaching among believers (1 John 4:1-4).

d. He promotes anger, bitterness and division (Eph.4:26,27; 2 Cor.2:5-11). Note: See the supplement  œSatanic Activity and Spiritual Warfare for more information on how Satan and his demons work and how we must respond.

The Doctrine of Demons
I. The Existence and Nature of Demons

A. Their Creation  God created demons as part of the angelic realm originally (Col.1:16).

B. Their Fall

1. The evidence  It is clear that Satan has a following of like beings (œPrince of the demons  Matt.12:24; the Devil and his angels  Matt.25:41). Demons are described throughout the Scriptures (Dan.10:10-20; Matt.10:1; Eph.6:12).

2. The time  At the fall of Satan, many angels followed him in that rebellion (demons are fallen angels). A third of the angelic host seem to have fallen with Satan (Rev.12:4  the imagery of Satan as a œdragon and angels/demons as œstars).

C. Their Nature

1. Demons are by nature the same kind of spirit beings as angels. They are personal, intelligent beings.

2. Demons are morally wicked (œunclean spirits  Matt.10:1; œevil  Luke 7:21; œwickedness/darkness  Eph.6:12).

a. They are deceitful (1 Tim.4:1-3; 2 Cor.11:13-15).

b. They are immoral (Gen.6:4; Jude 6,7).

3. Demons are invisible but also able to appear (Satan  Zech.3:1; Matt.4:9.10; Demons  Rev.9:7-10; 16:13-16).

4. Demons have great intelligence. They knew Christ identity and power (Mark 1:14,34; 5:6,7). They know their own future judgment (Matt.8:28,29). They can attempt to predict the future (Acts 16:16). Theye knowledge is not infinite. They learned it through thousands of years of experience and observation.

5. Demons have great strength (Mark 5:3; Acts 19:16; Rev.9:1-11).

II. The Activity of Demons

Demons are involved in carrying out Satan evil plans (2 Cor.11:15). What Satan is said to be doing (see above) is their work directly.

A. Demons promote idolatry (Lev.17:7; Deut.32:17; Ps.106:36-38). This activity is blatant in primitive cultures.

B. Demons are active in hindering the spiritual progress of believers every way they can (see Satan activities). They are deliberate and organized in these attempts (Eph.6:10-12).

C. Demons promote false teaching (1 Tim.4:1).

D. Demons can possess and afflict people (see supplement).

1. They cause physical ailments (dumbness  Matt.9:32,33; blindness  Matt.12:22; convulsions  Matt.17:15-18; Mark 9:20; self-injury  Mark 5:5; 9:22).

2. They cause mental disorders (withdrawal, nudity, filth, irrational behavior  Luke 8:27-29; suicidal mania  Mark 9:22).

3. They inflict problems upon believers as well, if allowed by God (Job troubles âob 2:7-9; Paul "thorn in the flesh": - 2 Cor.12:7).

E. Demons promote selfishness and division in the church (James 3:13-16).

Quote:

Does this story directly prove my belief that Satan exists? Of course not.

So you basically just waisted my time with that story.  I forgive you.


Quote:

Going on a tangent though, are you saying that the only way for people to truly love is to somehow become in tune with their out of body conscience self?

No.  What I am saying is that true acts of love come from the inner self-for, once again, this is the true nature of our inner self-love.  True acts of love come through our physical selves from our higher selves, undistorted by false beliefs that the physical conscious self holds.  Those who live according to their inner self live according to love.  Simple as that.  This is not just some philosophy.  This is first hand experience.


Quote:

Although I think your explanation of why you think there's negativity in the world is absolute garbage and about as far from a logical, coherent thought that there is...

Then you obviously didn't understand what I wrote.  Please, explain to me why it is illogical.


 

I Am Dude wrote on Jan 2^nd, 2010 at 11:22pm:

Quote: Does this story directly prove my belief that Satan exists? Of course not. So you basically just waisted my time with that story.  I forgive you. [quote]Going on a tangent though, are you saying that the only way for people to truly love is to somehow become in tune with their out of body conscience self?

No.  What I am saying is that true acts of love come from the inner self-for, once again, this is the true nature of our inner self-love.  True acts of love come through our physical selves from our higher selves, undistorted by false beliefs that the physical conscious self holds.  Those who live according to their inner self live according to love.  Simple as that.  This is not just some philosophy.  This is first hand experience.


Quote:

Although I think your explanation of why you think there's negativity in the world is absolute garbage and about as far from a logical, coherent thought that there is...

Then you obviously didn't understand what I wrote.  Please, explain to me why it is illogical.

[/quote]

Please see my previous post.

AlarmClock:

That's a lot to respond to, and I'd just end up repeating some of the things I said before.

I'll restate what I said about Lucifer, just in case it got lossed in my lengthy previous posts. Some people believe the story of Lucifer explains Satan's origin. I believe it doesn't. I'm not a Biblical scholar, but there are Biblical scholars who pretty much believe as I state below.

Regarding fallen angels, this way of thinking is primarily the result of later versions of the Book of Isaiah. Initially Isaiah spoke of a fallen king of Babylon, a physical person. It is believed that Isaiah (depending upon which chapter is considered) was written somewhere between 681 and 734 B.C. More than 1,000 years later (A.D. 382) a man named Jerome was commissioned by Pope Damascus to make an official revision of the Latin versions of the Bible.

Jerome made a translational error and changed the Hebrew word heylel to the Latin word Lucifer. Lucifer means light (lux) bearer (ferrous), which is different than what heylel means. Heylel comes from the primitive root word halal. Halal is used 165 times in the Old Testament and means either praise (117 times), glory (14 times), boast (10 times), mad (8 times), shine (3 times), foolish (3 times), fools (2 times), commended (2 times), rage (2 times), celebrate (1 time), give (1 time), marriage (1 time) or renowned (1 time). Heylel is used just one time in Isaiah 14:12 (depending on the translation) and in this case means Satan. Not a fallen angel, a fallen king, a physical person. It is just that Jerome’s erroneous use of the word Lucifer has caused many people to believe that a fallen angel named Lucifer (aka Satan) exists.

Here is the relevant verse from Isaiah 14:12: “How are thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer (“Heylel” in the Hebrew version), son of the morning! How art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!”

Below are some articles that speak about how a being named Lucifer doesn't exist.

http://www.israelofgod.org/lucifer.htm

http://www.israelofgod.org/SatanIs14Ez28.htm

http://www.israelofgod.org/sinsatan.htm

http://www.lds-mormon.com/lucifer.shtml

This might be irrelevant as far as some people are concerned, but I've made contact with spirit guidance that represents the light, and in more than one way they made the point that a being named Satan doesn't exist.

Also, I've analyzed thousands of dreams and found that "friendly" spirit messages can be received through them. One night I had a dream where a group of people including myself and Bruce Moen sat in a room. We talked about whether or not demons exist. In the dream Bruce represented the voice of reason. The last time I checked, Bruce doesn't believe in demons.

What is the definition of a demon outside of the myth that they are created by a non-existant being named Satan? One definition might be that they aren't innately divine and are beyond redemption. I don't believe this definition is true, because I believe all beings are innately divine. It is just that for whatever reasons some beings evolve in a negative way.

When this happens the most loving thing to do is to be in accord with divine will and do what you can to help such spirits change their ways and move on to the light. Send them love and suggest that they seek a better way. I've done so on a number of occasions, and have been told that some unfriendly spirits I dealt with have moved onto the light.

When we live according to God's love, we don't turn our backs on our brothers and sisters no matter where they come from or how far astray they have gone. Instead we find a way to help them so they'll join the great oneness that awaits them.

Love never gives up.

recoverer wrote on Jan 2^nd, 2010 at 11:54pm:

This might be irrelevant as far as some people are concerned, but I've made contact with spirit guidance that represents the light, and in more than one way they made the point that a being named Satan doesn't exist. Also, I've analyzed thousands of dreams and found that "friendly" spirit messages can be received through them. One night I had a dream where a group of people including myself and Bruce Moen sat in a room. We talked about whether or not demons exist. In the dream Bruce represented the voice of reason. The last time I checked, Bruce doesn't believe in demons. What is the definition of a demon outside of the myth that they are created by a non-existant being named Satan? One definition might be that they aren't innately divine and are beyond redemption. I don't believe this definition is true, because I believe all beings are innately divine. It is just that for whatever reasons some beings evolve in a negative way. When this happens the most loving thing to do is to be in accord with divine will and do what you can to help such spirits change their ways and move on to the light. Send them love and suggest that they seek a better way. I've done so on a number of occasions, and have been told that some unfriendly spirits I dealt with have moved onto the light. When we live according to God's love, we don't turn our backs on our brothers and sisters no matter where they come from or how far astray they have gone. Instead we find a way to help them so they'll join the great oneness that awaits them. Love never gives up.

I'm quite overjoyed that you at least are comfortable enough with and open to Scripture -- at least enough so that you have no problem quoting it to help support your side of an argument.

Ultimately, I agree with what you had said earlier -- it isn't really worth debating it because it will ultimately boil down to either believing in his existence or not.

Regardless, even if one is wrong in their beliefs on the matter, it ultimately will not matter. At least I hope not.

It will be a great day indeed if things come about in proving your side of the argument was right. I doubt it will ever come, but I certainly won't say that I am not thrilled at the prospect.

Agree to disagree I suppose is the right phrase, here. However I commend your usage of the Scripture and urge you to read it further. You're very close and for this, I pray that you can discover what is likely right under your nose!

No matter your particular beliefs, you need to watch this video. Very moving! And try not to be at least teared up by the time it ends. ;)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cyheJ480LYA

Alarmclock said:

"Ultimately, I agree with what you had said earlier -- it isn't really worth debating it because it will ultimately boil down to either believing in his existence or not.

Regardless, even if one is wrong in their beliefs on the matter, it ultimately will not matter. At least I hope not."


I think, respectfully, that beliefs are all that matter.  If you believe in dualism, in wars of heaven and hell, I have no doubt you will find them.  Likewise, if you believe in demons, and pull them toward you by deep rooted beliefs, then I would bet that you will have a greater chance of encounters with them than one whose beliefs are centered on love.  Robert Bruce, the great astral adept is a perfect example of this.  He has encountered and battled demons, and they are very much present in his belief system.  Others, quite prolific explorers have not had these beliefs and seem to be quite untouched in their exporations.  Why?  (rhetorical question).  Our deepest beliefs seem to manifest in our lives, both while incarnate and afterward.  For me, I believe that there are spiritual beings, human and non-humans, who are guided by love, and those who are guided by hate or the lack of love toward others.  I give those who are guided by hate, or selfish love, no power over me or mine.  In the afterlife, most explorers have found these beings in "hells" and on lower planes.  This has been documented by multiple varied sources.  Many on hellish planes have been documented as being unable to see or hear those from heavenly planes based in love.  Likewise, Swedenborg noted that when angels or discarnate humans based in love tried to visit hellish realms, they felt ill, and their intellect was clouded making them have to return, almost immediately to the loving planes from whence they came. 

     The idea that demons or hellish entities thus are going to encounter normal loving people on astral travels through non-hellish realms seems a bit unlikely.  Perhaps nothing is impossible, but just not as likely, as like attracts like.

     Many on this site have found that our true nature comes from God.  That the very underpinnings of our consciousness comes from God.  That some of our unhappiness on earth comes from our separation from God (which we willingly believe in, though it is false).  This is born out in other religions such as buddhism, and other eastern religions which see all of earthlife as "maya" or false illusion/separation. 

I suppose then, that in my own cosmology, I see no need for a supreme deceiver or supreme evil entity to act as a cause for evil in the world.  Evil seems obviously to come from the exposition of free will in negative directions, away from love of God and one's fellow men/women. 

Yet you are right.  In this forum, you have the right to espouse and bring up any beliefs that you want to, as long as it is in discussion.  But for me, belief is very very important.

Matthew 

Alarmclock, have you considered that Satan is using your words to tempt everyone that is countering your argument.  (I'm just having a little fun at your expense so don't take it too seriously.  Blame it on my ego... and the fact I'm bored) ;)

You posted very nicely, and I am sure almost thoroughly, the Satan/Devil references in the Bible.  Except one particular mention of Satan that Jesus had used escaped your list. 

Matt 16:23

Quote:

But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men...

Yep, it's true!  Satan used Peters words on Jesus!!  After Jesus had explained to his disciples that he would be made to suffer and killed, Peter tried to argue that it would never happen.

You see, Alarmclock, Satan infiltrated Peter words just as he has infiltrated yours in this post.  Oh sure, Peter thought he was being noble coming in defense of his master, but Jesus knew the truth.  It was Satan pure and simple.

Of course... 2000 years ago, they didn't have words like ego to throw around like they do now.  So they used words like Satan and Devil.

Jesus spoke of knowing a peace that the world doesn't.  He spoke lots about the Kingdom of God.  He spoke about being in the world but not of it.  He spoke about love.  He spoke about not worrying about tomorrow, for tomorrow would take care of itself.  He spoke about not giving concern to worldly treasures.

People can live two different ways.  Either they can live in a world based on ego and fear.  Or they can live, if only for a short while at least, as that of the beholder with sunshine in your heart.

You can keep your demons and devils, I'll take my sunshine.

Mactek wrote on Jan 3^rd, 2010 at 2:55am:

Alarmclock, have you considered that Satan is using your words to tempt everyone that is countering your argument.  (I'm just having a little fun at your expense so don't take it too seriously.  Blame it on my ego... and the fact I'm bored) ;) You posted very nicely, and I am sure almost thoroughly, the Satan/Devil references in the Bible.  Except one particular mention of Satan that Jesus had used escaped your list.  Matt 16:23 Quote: But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men... Yep, it's true!  Satan used Peters words on Jesus!!  After Jesus had explained to his disciples that he would be made to suffer and killed, Peter tried to argue that it would never happen. You see, Alarmclock, Satan infiltrated Peter words just as he has infiltrated yours in this post.  Oh sure, Peter thought he was being noble coming in defense of his master, but Jesus knew the truth.  It was Satan pure and simple. Of course... 2000 years ago, they didn't have words like ego to throw around like they do now.  So they used words like Satan and Devil. Jesus spoke of knowing a peace that the world doesn't.  He spoke lots about the Kingdom of God.  He spoke about being in the world but not of it.  He spoke about love.  He spoke about not worrying about tomorrow, for tomorrow would take care of itself.  He spoke about not giving concern to worldly treasures. People can live two different ways.  Either they can live in a world based on ego and fear.  Or they can live, if only for a short while at least, as that of the beholder with sunshine in your heart. You can keep your demons and devils, I'll take my sunshine.

You say that one can only live in either ego and fear or filled with "sunshine in their heart" -- a la, love.

I fear the whole "Is Satan real" debate may have thrown some of you off from my true objectives. Ultimately, I don't really concern myself with such things and very rarely concern myself with anything concerning demons or Satan or evil. All I was trying to say is that in my beliefs, there are demonic entities that exist and according to the Scripture, there is one who rules over it all.

The specifics of such are a moot point. Ultimately, I have the hunch that you're suggesting that I live within a universe of ego and fear. I strongly disagree, if only because I'm here trying to spread the Word of how I came upon being able to throw all of my life's fears aside in the first place! I'm here in the efforts of discussing and debating with you all, hopefully getting through to but a handful wherever it is meant to be. How can you say I live in a universe of ego and fear when I'm going out of my way, during my own personal time, to attempt to help people that I feel are currently misguided?

Regardless of whether you think I'm nuts or not, I don't know how you can discredit something that is done so selflessly. And for those who will lazily say that everything I'm so strongly proclaiming might perhaps be from the very evil that I spoke of earlier, well -- since you didn't hesitate to try and use Scripture to compliment your own theories and musings, you certainly shouldn't mind me using some verses of my own to help shoot down such a fantasy, am I right?

Psalm 28:7

"The LORD is my strength and my shield;
my heart trusted in him, and I am helped: therefore my heart greatly rejoiceth;
and with my song will I praise him."

2 Thessalonians 3:3

"But the Lord is faithful, and he will strengthen and protect you from the evil one."

Romans 1:16-17

"For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ:
for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth;
to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith."

Acts 1:8

"But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you:
and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria,
and unto the uttermost part of the earth."

Romans 10:11

"For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed."

1 Corinthians 10:13

"There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man:
but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able;
but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it."

According to these verses, among many other things, I'm protected as a believer in Jesus Christ and should not be discouraged to try and spread the Word.

To quote Romans 10:11 one more time:

"Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed."

I will never be ashamed.

Nice try, though.

Ultimately, you're likely to "choose your sunshine" over anything that I have to say. And quite honestly, I don't blame you. It wouldn't say much for this whole movement if everyone abandoned its core teachings at the drop of a hat.

But for you to suggest that my efforts, all of which are coming on my own time and the last time I checked, definitely aren't earning me any money (at least not yet -- you guys wanna buy some books from Amazon?), are coming from my belief system and universe filled with "ego and fear"? I'm sorry, but I just find that a difficult conclusion to come to based on everything associated.

I Am Dude wrote on Jan 2^nd, 2010 at 11:22pm:

True acts of love come through our physical selves from our higher selves, undistorted by false beliefs that the physical conscious self holds.  Those who live according to their inner self live according to love.  Simple as that.  This is not just some philosophy.  This is first hand experience.

So true.
People in a belief trap only hear what they want to hear.  ;)
The only way to know is through personal experience .
Now "personal experience" is doing the inner work on yourself, not watching videos, quoting/reading any text , listening to other's stories . 
Nothing substitutes for personal experience, nothing.
You may get pointers there but true knowledge is way different.
Most never do the work due to fear and go around in circles with their "comforting" beliefs. :-/

AlarmClock wrote on Jan 2^nd, 2010 at 11:26pm:

I Am Dude wrote on Jan 2nd, 2010 at 11:22pm: Quote: Does this story directly prove my belief that Satan exists? Of course not. So you basically just waisted my time with that story.  I forgive you. [quote]Going on a tangent though, are you saying that the only way for people to truly love is to somehow become in tune with their out of body conscience self? No.  What I am saying is that true acts of love come from the inner self-for, once again, this is the true nature of our inner self-love.  True acts of love come through our physical selves from our higher selves, undistorted by false beliefs that the physical conscious self holds.  Those who live according to their inner self live according to love.  Simple as that.  This is not just some philosophy.  This is first hand experience. [quote]Although I think your explanation of why you think there's negativity in the world is absolute garbage and about as far from a logical, coherent thought that there is...

Then you obviously didn't understand what I wrote.  Please, explain to me why it is illogical.

[/quote]

Please see my previous post.[/quote]

I reread your previous post.  Nowhere does it state how my thinking is illogical.  Rather, you misinterpreted/misunderstood what I was saying, and so I explained more clearly in my last post.  But you even failed to prove the illogicality of what you though I had meant.  If you are bold enough to call my beliefs garbage, at least have the courage to back it up with some intelligence. 

I'm still waiting to hear why my belief is illogical, and where exactly the logic is in yours.  You have failed to do either one as of yet.

pedigree wrote on Jan 3^rd, 2010 at 4:47am:

I Am Dude wrote on Jan 2nd, 2010 at 11:22pm:   True acts of love come through our physical selves from our higher selves, undistorted by false beliefs that the physical conscious self holds.  Those who live according to their inner self live according to love.  Simple as that.  This is not just some philosophy.  This is first hand experience. So true. People in a belief trap only hear what they want to hear.  ;) The only way to know is through personal experience . Now "personal experience" is doing the inner work on yourself, not watching videos, quoting/reading any text , listening to other's stories .  Nothing substitutes for personal experience, nothing. You may get pointers there but true knowledge is way different. Most never do the work due to fear and go around in circles with their "comforting" beliefs. :-/

I find it incredibly ironic how you talk so glowingly about love but are so quick to shoot down others as not having any "personal experience".

Is it at all apparent to you that, perhaps, there are other ways to have such "personal experience" without visiting the "after life" as you all name it?

Like I said above, I don't know why everyone thinks that I'm just here for shits and giggles. I'm here, when it all boils down to it, because of love. I yearn for you all to see that the path that you're currently on is the wrong one. Now, no matter whether you believe me to be incorrect or not, how can my efforts be deemed in any other way other than selfless and loving? Funny how I can exhibit this love that you almost deem as exclusive to yourselves thanks to your personal experiences.

What kind of magical trickery is this?

Am I making any sense?

I Am Dude wrote on Jan 3^rd, 2010 at 4:58am:

AlarmClock wrote on Jan 2nd, 2010 at 11:26pm: I Am Dude wrote on Jan 2nd, 2010 at 11:22pm: Quote: Does this story directly prove my belief that Satan exists? Of course not. So you basically just waisted my time with that story.  I forgive you. [quote]Going on a tangent though, are you saying that the only way for people to truly love is to somehow become in tune with their out of body conscience self? No.  What I am saying is that true acts of love come from the inner self-for, once again, this is the true nature of our inner self-love.  True acts of love come through our physical selves from our higher selves, undistorted by false beliefs that the physical conscious self holds.  Those who live according to their inner self live according to love.  Simple as that.  This is not just some philosophy.  This is first hand experience. [quote]Although I think your explanation of why you think there's negativity in the world is absolute garbage and about as far from a logical, coherent thought that there is... Then you obviously didn't understand what I wrote.  Please, explain to me why it is illogical.

Please see my previous post.[/quote]

I reread your previous post.  Nowhere does it state how my thinking is illogical.  Rather, you misinterpreted/misunderstood what I was saying, and so I explained more clearly in my last post.  But you even failed to prove the illogicality of what you though I had meant.  If you are bold enough to call my beliefs garbage, at least have the courage to back it up with some intelligence.  [/quote]

You reread the post that outlined exactly why it was logical to believe that Satan exists through Scripture? And yet you're saying this... really? Seriously, we are, in fact, talking about the same "last post" right? Just checking.

I get what you were previously saying. It boiled down to you being right about absolutely everything through your personal experience and love filled universe that vibrated throughout your core being. That's paraphrased, of course.

I've tired though, I really have. I almost forget too, thanks for completely ignoring my entire story about something that I deemed one of my own personal experiences. Way to try and even attempt -- however pathetically -- to understand where I'm coming from. Alas, I don't think you're going to risk opening your eyes even for a second to see an alternate viewpoint of a major spiritual belief system. Not that this makes you at fault or anything -- it's just depressing that all that I typed was a complete and utter waste of time.

Well, I guess we are all in the mood of talking past each other.  Like I said, I was bored.

But wait, you must be bored too...


Quote:

How can you say I live in a universe of ego and fear when I'm going out of my way, during my own personal time, to attempt to help people that I feel are currently misguided?

... and with a bit of an ego.


Quote:

Regardless of whether you think I'm nuts or not, I don't know how you can discredit something that is done so selflessly.

No, I wasn't originally thinking you were nuts, but now...  Anyway, you aren't so selfless.  You have an agenda that you have stated.  I would also add that you are doing so to get your ego stroked by helping some misguided soul.

There are genuine ways to help people selflessly that are not ego-centric.  Go volunteer at a food pantry.  Go read to senior citizens at a rest home.  But coming on a NewAgey type Internet board telling people their beliefs, as you believe them to be, are misguided???? Selfless????  Ha, give me a break.

I think you got too cool for school.  Oh wait, now my ego is starting to feel gooooood.  Darn it, see what you did?

By the way, isn't there a saying "Idle hands are the devil's workshop?"  ... or in my vernacular... "bored people let their egos run amok."

(I'm still poking fun at you.  I will continue until you ignore me, or I find something better to...........)

Oh and one more thing, let's go a little lighter on the biblical quotes.

Anything Old Testament locks up my brain.  And anything outside of the Gospels makes me a little snarky.

Mactek wrote on Jan 3^rd, 2010 at 5:35am:

Well, I guess we are all in the mood of talking past each other.  Like I said, I was bored. But wait, you must be bored too... Quote: How can you say I live in a universe of ego and fear when I'm going out of my way, during my own personal time, to attempt to help people that I feel are currently misguided? ... and with a bit of an ego.

How did you get your glass house to shine so brightly? Where are my sunglasses!?


Mactek wrote on Jan 3^rd, 2010 at 5:35am:

Quote: Regardless of whether you think I'm nuts or not, I don't know how you can discredit something that is done so selflessly. No, I wasn't originally thinking you were nuts, but now...  Anyway, you aren't so selfless.  You have an agenda that you have stated.  I would also add that you are doing so to get your ego stroked by helping some misguided soul. There are genuine ways to help people selflessly that are not ego-centric.  Go volunteer at a food pantry.  Go read to senior citizens at a rest home.  But coming on a NewAgey type Internet board telling people their beliefs, as you believe them to be, are misguided???? Selfless????  Ha, give me a break.

Whose to say one is more noble than the other? I may be going out on a limb here, but I do consider people's souls a lot more worthy, important and fulfilling (in attempting to help them) of an endeavor. To what you will likely deem is to "boost my ego," I feel it prudent to explain that I've actually given blood regularly and donated pathetically small sums of money to charities who I feel are worth my tiny and insignificant attention. You know, to make myself feel better about... my... self. I suppose it could never hurt to just  go run around and try and save kittens from trees or something. I shall look into it. Until then!


Mactek wrote on Jan 3^rd, 2010 at 5:35am:

I think you got too cool for school.  Oh wait, now my ego is starting to feel gooooood.  Darn it, see what you did?

I'm certainly not going to go and try to deny that part of the reason that I'm even doing this is for some form of fulfillment, because it is. Or is boldly and honestly confessing a truth just a mere ploy to further boost my ego? What a rabbit hole that has been dug!

In all seriousness, I'm not going to try to explain the rest of it because I'm confident that the time spent typing it will ultimately be an utter waste of time.

Not that this hasn't stopped me before now..


Mactek wrote on Jan 3^rd, 2010 at 5:35am:

By the way, isn't there a saying "Idle hands are the devil's workshop?"  ... or in my vernacular... "bored people let their egos run amok." (I'm still poking fun at you.  I will continue until you ignore me, or I find something better to...........)

I really do wish I had a job where I could afford to be bored for several hours per day at the end of the work week. Good times that would be, indeed! Too bad...

You really do seem to enjoy trying to intellectually toy with people. Only thing is, you write and express it all so well that I can't help but want to read more. So feel free to spew some more nonsense my way if you indeed have nothing better to do.

Perhaps a simple getting-to-know-you game of 21 Questions is in order? I will start out and say that my favorite color is dark green.

Mactek wrote on Jan 3^rd, 2010 at 5:50am:

Oh and one more thing, let's go a little lighter on the biblical quotes. Anything Old Testament locks up my brain.  And anything outside of the Gospels makes me a little snarky.

You got it, buds. Can't do anything to infringe upon your sunshine now can we?  :)

FINALLY!!!  A post I can read from Alarmclock without thinking "what's up this guy's ***?"

Dark Green? yuck, how ordinary.  Mine is Gold... but I have to give it up for lent.

Mactek wrote on Jan 3^rd, 2010 at 6:48am:

FINALLY!!!  A post I can read from Alarmclock without thinking "what's up this guy's ***?" Dark Green? yuck, how ordinary.  Mine is Gold... but I have to give it up for lent.

Yeah, I suppose it's even more ordinary and predictable when you take into account my Irish heritage. And no, I don't care at all for your concerns about your Lucky Charms. Nor am I currently drunk.

Ahh... Lent. Don't get me started on that -- or Catholicism for that matter.

Is it at all worth noting that both of our favorite colors are directly representative of money in paper and base value form? Or maybe you named the first color that came to mine as I did. To be honest, I don't really have a "favorite" color. Although I will say with some enthusiasm that my favorite cereal is Rice Krispy Treats Cereal -- which is currently no longer being produced... :(

Nope, I don't think you understood my post.  You kinda needed to uncode it.  My bad.  You must come from a non-catholic flavor that doesn't follow the church color calendar.  Some do, some don't.

Hey!!  If you have a problem with the Catholics, why don't you go to their board and beat them up over how misguided THEY are.

HEY!

What is going on in here?

One who quotes scripture at proof of a cosmic truth merely reinforces to all that he/she is well versed in scripture.  I am sure that a devout Muslim could cite areas from the Q'uaran that directly refute the New Testament or the Old Testament. 

The idea that someone can quote scripture which in some instances was written decades to centuries after the events and then say this is hard evidence, is, in my opinion proof of an ingrained belief system.

At least in some temples and churches, the true meaning of scripture is debated, until those in the religion agree on meaning. 

Evenso, what is Alarmclock saving us from?  If we are loving people, and act lovingly to others, is he saying we will be damned for not following his scriptures?  Even Don, at his most confrontational, never implied that he debated with us to save our heathen souls from certain damnation. 

No, unfortunately Alarmclock, it has been my experience that when a person insists on saving others to a true path, end up adhering to a rigorous set of beliefs that are not dependent on their own experience.  If beliefs are based on doctrine as opposed to exploration and experience, it tends to be the very definition of a "hollow heaven."

Thus, Swedenborg reported finding christians who cited church doctrine but didn't practice love of God or one's fellow man.  They were mystified and mortified how they felt they could follow scripture (somewhat dogmatically) to the letter and not enter into a loving heaven. 

To each his/her own, however.  I can equally hope that Alarmclock will take the posts on this site and have a glimmer of desire to explore personally, in addition to learning scripture.  Indeed, I think that this may in fact be the case.  So, whom is saving who?  Maybe each other.


Doc

Well said Doc.

Maybe Bruce should establish another Forum.  Call it the Sandbox, where people can debate endlessly with each other about whatever.  This back and forth debate really gets tedious, maybe because I've heard it all many times before and it always ends up in the same unresolved place.

People who are convinced that they, and only they, have the truth, and the rest of us are on the outside looking in, reminds me of what I call the "country club" mentality.

In other words, a big part of the appeal of these clubs is that some of them are quite exclusive.  If you are a member, part of the attraction is that very few other folks can get in.  I suppose they derive a certain pleasure from showing off their membership card or window stickers to other, less fortunate people.

I guess the ultimate pleasure must be the conviction that they, and only they (along with folks who share their beliefs) will get to heaven.  As for the rest of us, they either feel sorry for us or do their best to convert us to their own convictions.

As I said, it's really tedious and I don't waste my time reading such posts, much less responding to them.

You said something on another thread that should be framed and hung on the wall: 

"......it seems clear that we are meant to work with what we have in the here and now.....For myself, if I can become more loving while alive, and lose selfish ways of thinking and unnecessary fears associated with the physical plane, I will feel that I accomplished quite a bit."

Words to live by.  All the rest is background noise and static.

R

Quote:

You reread the post that outlined exactly why it was logical to believe that Satan exists through Scripture? And yet you're saying this... really? Seriously, we are, in fact, talking about the same "last post" right? Just checking.

Bro you're Scripture quotes mean nothing.  No, sorry, they do mean something.  They mean that a long time ago a bunch of guys got together an wrote some stuff that may or may not have happened, that may or may not be true.  It is illogical to use the Bible to prove anything.  Words in a book are not proof. 


Quote:

I've tired though, I really have. I almost forget too, thanks for completely ignoring my entire story about something that I deemed one of my own personal experiences. Way to try and even attempt -- however pathetically -- to understand where I'm coming from. Alas, I don't think you're going to risk opening your eyes even for a second to see an alternate viewpoint of a major spiritual belief system. Not that this makes you at fault or anything -- it's just depressing that all that I typed was a complete and utter waste of time.

All I wanted was to hear why it was logical to believe that Satan exists, and you did not deliver.  I did not ignore your story. I read it, and conclude that your false belief in Satan is limiting your experience.  Your belief system is obviously extremely fear-based, and I would reconsider it if I were you. 

It's funny that you say you're being loving by trying to divert those on a quest for love and truth with what is essentially false, fear-based nonsense.  If you disagree that it is nonsense, then please show me why it is not.  Once again, you still haven't done so.

One point that has been established is that scripture can be interpreted in different ways.

This being the case, perhaps there is a more foolproof way to figure things out. I've found that it is possible to make contact with love based spirit beings you can trust, and find out if Satan exists in this manner.

Whether such contact can be made isn't a matter of theory. Only experience will tell you. If one is overly concerned about making demonic contact, one might have a difficult time making contact with friendly beings.

It is true that there are unfriendly spirits one needs to be warry about. But it is also true that if one becomes too concerned about unfriendly spirits, one will end up creating a corresponding aspect of mind that will give one more problems than an unfriendly spirit. 

Fear and spiritually are a terrible match. If one wants to grow spiritually as much as possible, one needs to find that as long as one uses "sensible" discernment, fear isn't necessary.

Hi AlarmClock,

Is there any kind of 'mystical' Christian experience that you believe is valid?  If so, what determines that experience's validity?

Bets

Alarm Clock,

I just read through this thread quickly and would appreciate clarification on some of your key points. 
What is your perspective on these 5 questions?

(1) Do you believe that the Bible teaches that Satan is a fallen angel referred to in Isaiah 14:12 as "Lucifer?"

(2) Do you believe that all OBEs and astral exploration could well be tainted by contacts who are in fact demonic impersonators?

(3) Do you believe that deliberate OBE exploration of astral planes is therefore inappropriate or at least dangerous?

(4) Do you believe that Christian OBEs are safe and appropriate because Christ will protect true believers?
Or do you believe that active deliberate exploration of spiritual dimensions is wrong for Christians? 

(5) What about OBEs experienced during NDEs?  Do you believe that the Being of Light encountered in NDEs may well always be a demonic impersonator?  Or do you at least believe Christian claims that they have encountered Christ as a Being of Light during their NDE? 

What issues did you hope or expect members of this forum to address in response to your thread?  Have your expectations been satisified?

Don

Alarmclock,

You quote so I shall quote :-)

"When you trust yourself then you will trust your own dreams and interpretations-and these will lead you to greater self-understanding. Your beliefs of good and evil will become much more clear to you, and you will no longer need to project repressed tendencies out upon others in exaggerated fashion."  - Seth (Jane Roberts)

I had an old forman who I hated,and so did all the people in the plant where I worked.after he died,I became very spiritual,so I gave him love and forgiveness.A short time after,as I was laying on my bed watching t.v,I felt the pressure of a hand on my shoulder,and at the same time a light in the corner of my eye.I looked over and saw his face and he was smiling as if to thank me for foregiving him.explane that.George

Hmmmm....spent this past half hour scanning this debate, and I guess I will take from it that Alarm Clock is saying "Be Careful", which I will interpret for myself as "be conscious and deliberate as you explore, to avoid unhelpful detours from your path".  How's that?

Berserk2 wrote on Jan 4^th, 2010 at 2:06am:

Alarm Clock, I just read through this thread quickly and would appreciate clarification on some of your key points.  What is your perspective on these 5 questions? (1) Do you believe that the Bible teaches that Satan is a fallen angel referred to in Isaiah 14:12 as "Lucifer?" (2) Do you believe that all OBEs and astral exploration could well be tainted by contacts who are in fact demonic impersonators? (3) Do you believe that deliberate OBE exploration of astral planes is therefore inappropriate or at least dangerous? (4) Do you believe that Christian OBEs are safe and appropriate because Christ will protect true believers? Or do you believe that active deliberate exploration of spiritual dimensions is wrong for Christians?  (5) What about OBEs experienced during NDEs?  Do you believe that the Being of Light encountered in NDEs may well always be a demonic impersonator?  Or do you at least believe Christian claims that they have encountered Christ as a Being of Light during their NDE?  What issues did you hope or expect members of this forum to address in response to your thread?  Have your expectations been satisified? Don

Hi Everybody! It seems that AlarmClock has disappeared since Don posted his reply to him! Are the two connected in some way??? Far Fundamentalist Christian Right, versus Moderate Liberal Christian, in their physical awareness-(Spiritual)senses!?(Teacher and student perhaps?)....Maybe just to gain our ears, eyes, and conscious attention to their flawed belief systems!! Don's reply to him was rather cold-warm! Probably to give his(alarmclock)voice-written power(christian thought, through flawed-false ancient worded scripts, and intellectual and modern religious subterfuge!)more subtle and believable attention. Which it did to you Guys!!! Tell them(AlarmClock)to to go to the Islamic sites and Forums, which is the fastest growing religion in the world today!!! And preach their garbage there!! They wont! They are cowards! Regards. Carl and Family. PS. These people(Alarm Clock)will try to pull unconditional love out of your hearts, if you respect, or support, or wish peace on other religious belief systems. It's their hidden agenda! I know! I was one of them! They lie constantly on how they love and pray for everybody that does not know Jesus! They themselves don't know Jesus, nearly 99% of them. It's just a phony-pathetic 'Get out of Hell' card for them! The vast majority...99%...Regards. Carl & Family    

I definitely believe Don and Alarm Clock are two different people. I don't believe Don would be deceptive in the way you suggest.

hi my favorite colour is purple and when i told this medium she said that the reason i see this as my favorite colour is because the colour purple means you love god,i felt good after that.

i always loved the story of jesus where he helps the pheonecian woman because her faith was so strong in the beleif that he was the son of god and thats why he helped her,the disciples were not very pleased with jesus at that moment as at that time they thought that jesus should only help the jewish people but i breleive on that day he did this,he was showing that his father was the father of all nations.

god jesus and the holy spirit are there for all of us who truly beleive and accept them in their hearts,god loves us all,we just got to learn to love each other.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cw-TYEkqi6c&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=14epxvU8XIA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MDCbJ4vnMNg&NR=1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YHbAbp69yJg&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9f2qZqOZ-y0&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oa3n9tSxA9A&feature=related

this shows jesus fighting off satan,jesus said he exists
so satan must surely exist.

love and god bless  love juditha

Jay, Could it be that you are missing the true message? That is the message about judgment, love, compassion. To name some of the parts if it. As confusing as it may be for a person indoctrinated in contemporary religious beliefs, there are many of us here who dont need or want the type of saving you have in mind. Thanks but no thanks. Many of us are just fine. We have found our God. When I look at all of the evil caused by this book you seem so found of quoting, and how much evil and hate has been brought onto this earth from many who quote its words,.. I think I will stick to my God. Your book, and many of the beliefs it has spawned, seems just to messed up to me.
Joe 

Carl,

I know nothing about Jay (Alarm Clock) and am confused about the basis of his fear that astral exploration is dangerous.  I wanted him to clarify his position before expressing my disagreements. 

I liken astral exploration to early efforts to reach the South Pole.  Yes, this exploration could be dangerous, but the benefits of such an achievement made the risks worthwhile.  Also, despite Swedenborg's warnings about deceptive spirits, safeguards (e.g. prayers for protection) can be taken which make astral exploration worth the risk.  I oppose playing with Ouija Boards, not astral exploration.  I'm still hoping for breathroughs in verification that make insights from astral travel a life-changing blessing to humanity.

Don

Although Alarmclock's name was clever (waking people up by sounding the alarm), I never thought Don and he were connected. 

There is a great difference in their writing and stated beliefs.  That kind of subterfuge would be unworthy of Don.  So I don't think and never did that it is a case of an agenda/plot.

I think Alarmclock left because the site was not for him.  He sent his warning, and may have felt assailed by a counter view.  In fairness, Alarmclock appeared fairly set in his beliefs as well.

People either on earth or in the afterlife gravitate toward others of a like mind/philosophy.

M