The Hole in my Heart

12/1/09 Morning Session:

I experienced the hole in my heart. I think this is a precursor to the “Now” experience that Eckhart Tolle describes in his awakening. I can’t wait for that eventuality.

I think I was on the edge of the “Vortex”… I believe the next step will be a powerful sucking sensation into the “Now”… I am preparing for it.

But, I am posting this because it is a cautionary note. OBD and others want everyone to accelerate and leap over all the basic’s which built foundation for the big experiences that are to come… if I wasn’t ready for the hole in my heart phenomena I probably would have freaked out… went to a conventional doctor and they would have did open heart surgery on me… this is the danger of going to far too fast… you have no idea how to react or what is going on..

My heart chakra began buzzing when I did Robert Bruce’s PAPI online course… I knew what this was because under his personal guidance I was being groomed and given the theory and practice which gave me a good idea of what to expect and not to do anything dumb.

So I am looking forward to experiencing the “Now” soon… and I wishing the same experience for you all as you go forward on your path of unfoldment as we used to say in the world of “chela’s and yogi aspirants” slow and easy gets the prize.


Seraphis1  8-)Sun God of the Temple of Isis 8-)

I can attest that fast gets you in the mental hospital if you are not careful. When you are ready the right things are available to you. If not be careful.

I most certainly do not want anyone to leap over the basics.  I have never stated or implied this. 

I'm curious as to what exactly the "hole in your heart" means, and the "Vortex."  Never came across these terms...

Do you mean you experienced the activation of your heart chakra?  Is this what "hole in your heart" means?

I wouldn't make the mistake of determining what I'm going to experience according to what Eckart Tolle says. Find out for yourself, don't limit yourself to his claims.

I've found over and over again that people who claim to be enlightened aren't what they claim to be.

It's also important to be careful about energetic techniques recommended by so-called experts.

Here's what Frank Kepple had to say about Robert Bruce. It is important to note that Robert Bruce claims that while he was in the waking state his room suddenly filled with white light and Sai Baba materialized to him. I don't see how a child molesting self-proclaimed incarnation of God could materialize in somebody's room. Therefore, I believe Robert Bruce made up the story. I don't want somebody who makes up stories telling me how to work on my heart chakra or any other part of my energetic system.

http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/welcome_to_members_introductions/from_the_depths_of_sin_i_rise-t19555.0.html

It is important to note that eventually Robert Bruce had to conceed that Sai Baba did molest children, and because he painted himself in a corner by claiming that Sai Baba materialized to him, he ended up defending Sai Baba's actions in several ways.

Our sins are not the totality of our being.

If a person claims to be enlightened or makes up stories to validate his or her self, they basically make it so some people will believe they are a highly valid source of information, even when they aren't.

When a person is intentionally dishonest, it does say something about his or her character.

It is sad that new age people state that they don't want to be misled by a church, then they allow themselves to be misled by the false gurus and channelers of the World.



Beau wrote on Dec 1^st, 2009 at 2:38pm:

Our sins are not the totality of our being.

Albert,

"Judge not, less ye be judged." "If there is a man without sin among you, let he be the one to cast the first stone."

I know not of Sai Baba, but I know that human beings are complex creatures.  Might he have, at certain points in his life reached an enlightened consciousness regarding the universe?  Could he rise to a loving level, but then, due to perverse sexual thoughts which he did not banish, fall to an awful level as well?  Not everyone takes the same spiritual path.  Perhaps, prior to his alleged molestations, he had a period of life where he acted and thought lovingly?  Perhaps not. 

I'm just not sure what the big deal is.  My take is that we should never get all our information from one source only - as this site tells, we should be exploring on our own. 

Matthew

There are many who are mislead by falsehoods. Not just the new agers. It is part of the learning process and it is their path to find. Sometimes the people screaming "Falsehood" the loudest are the ones to fear most....well, not fear but you get my meaning.

And by the way "That sin in man is Hollywood" --REM

I'm also interested in this 'hole in your heart' that you are talking about. A family member had a TIA (transient ischemic attack) years ago, and found out he had an actual hole in his heart, which was repaired through much less invasive means than what you describe in your post. So, yes, that takes hold of my imagination and leaves me wondering what exactly this is.

I think the hole in the Heart is a physical manifestation of a metaphorical lacking within the soul. It can be repaired by going on a quest for enlightenment. That's what I think.

recoverer wrote on Dec 1^st, 2009 at 2:17pm:

Here's what Frank Kepple had to say about Robert Bruce. It is important to note that Robert Bruce claims that while he was in the waking state his room suddenly filled with white light and Sai Baba materialized to him. I don't see how a child molesting self-proclaimed incarnation of God could materialize in somebody's room. Therefore, I believe Robert Bruce made up the story. I don't want somebody who makes up stories telling me how to work on my heart chakra or any other part of my energetic system. http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/welcome_to_members_introductions/from_the_depths_of_sin_i_rise-t19555.0.html It is important to note that eventually Robert Bruce had to conceed that Sai Baba did molest children, and because he painted himself in a corner by claiming that Sai Baba materialized to him, he ended up defending Sai Baba's actions in several ways.

Recoverer; Thanks for sharing...hear you quite well.
PUL, R.

DocM wrote on Dec 1^st, 2009 at 3:57pm:

...but I know that human beings are complex creatures.  Might he have, at certain points in his life reached an enlightened consciousness regarding the universe?  Could he rise to a loving level, but then, due to perverse sexual thoughts which he did not banish, fall to an awful level as well?  Not everyone takes the same spiritual path. ... Matthew

I really like what you said here.

I didn't write what I wrote because I want to spread fear and judge people.

It is just that there are people who mislead others down a false path.  Our energetic systems aren't something to play around with. Many people have had psychological and physical problems, including ending up in mental hospitals and committing suicide, because their kundalini got awakened in a not suitable manner as they followed kundalini gurus who couldn't help them out when they ran into problems.

If a person takes care of his (or her) psychological issues and seeks assistance from his higher self (spirit guides) he will probably have much more success with his energetic system than if he dabbles around with an energetic technique that is taught by some supposed master.

I speak from experience, my kundalini unfoldment was quite a thing. Fortunately, I had divine assistance.

You're welcome Romain.

I, personally, believe you when you say that you don't write what you write to spread fear and judge people.

I think that on this board we spend a lot of time talking about the pros and cons of different guides and teachers. And, you make some valid points along the way. But, I question the idea that only HS (spirit guides) are capable of assisting others on their spiritual journeys.

Certain activities are crimes and should be investigated and taken care of in appropriate ways. However, I still feel that this does not necessarily invalidate all of the teachings.

I believe it's fine for people to share what they know with other people, as long as they do so in an honest manner.

My feeling is that a truly wise person wouldn't present his (or herself) as enlightened person (if there is such a thing), because he would understand that if he did so too many people would turn him into some sort of authority figure.

This World doesn't need a bunch of followers. It needs people who have enough freedom of mind to find out what's true in their own way, without getting overly involved with somebody else's approach.

Also, anybody who has been around the block with this "enlightened person" business understands that the term has been missused to a mind boggling extent, and it is best to stay away from such a way of defining (substantiating) one's self.



wrote on Dec 1^st, 2009 at 5:40pm:

I, personally, believe you when you say that you don't write what you write to spread fear and judge people. I think that on this board we spend a lot of time talking about the pros and cons of different guides and teachers. And, you make some valid points along the way. But, I question the idea that only HS (spirit guides) are capable of assisting others on their spiritual journeys. Certain activities are crimes and should be investigated and taken care of in appropriate ways. However, I still feel that this does not necessarily invalidate all of the teachings.

I can understand your problem with the term 'enlightened' to describe a 'master', and how striving for 'it' may not be the best approach all the time. But, following is essential in life, at certain times. It is important to find people that you trust, who can guide you at crucial points.

And, I believe that is what you are saying -- find that right guide, the one whom you can really trust -- don't necessarily hold on so tightly to your teacher that you cannot recognize your own worth, or the mistakes which your teacher, who is always learning, may make.

Also, different guides, teachers, counselors, etc. may serve your needs best at different times. Only you can make that decision for yourself.

B2-

Quite. If we only ever listened to impeccable sources who have led perfect lives we would'nt have many sources ! Practically any scientific paper would be invalidated as scientists are real people who have affairs, manipulate their tax returns, in short make mistakes. I'm uncomfortable with the idea that everything a person says is immediately invalidated if it is shown they have made mistakes in their life.

The key is to be discriminating. I think Mathew hits the nail on the head when he says use more than one source- as many as possible.

Dave

Seraphish

I agree with recoverer that it's best not to base your expectations of what you will experience on the experiences of others.  This will limit your perceptions, and could possibly skew and/or block out what you do or would experience. 

As for this thread turning into another bash on false sources, I say let's move on to the heart of this post-the experience which Seraphis has described. 

You got a hole in your heart, I got a Whole in mine.   ;D

Dude:

You touched on the main thing that troubled me. We need to find out for ourselves what's possible. So much more became available to me when I stopped listening to the parameters set by the gurus I used to listen to.



I Am Dude wrote on Dec 1^st, 2009 at 7:37pm:

Seraphish I agree with recoverer that it's best not to base your expectations of what you will experience on the experiences of others.  This will limit your perceptions, and could possibly skew and/or block out what you do or would experience.  As for this thread turning into another bash on false sources, I say let's move on to the heart of this post-the experience which Seraphis has described.  You got a hole in your heart, I got a Whole in mine.   ;D

wrote on Dec 1^st, 2009 at 4:39pm:

I'm also interested in this 'hole in your heart' that you are talking about. A family member had a TIA (transient ischemic attack) years ago, and found out he had an actual hole in his heart, which was repaired through much less invasive means than what you describe in your post. So, yes, that takes hold of my imagination and leaves me wondering what exactly this is.

Hi b2: It was a describption of a phenomena... while doing a Wave exercise my heart chakra opened at its center creating a torus it was flowing energy into what I think is a "Vortex" that if you read Eckhart Tolle's description of his awakening into the "now" if I had been able to sustain the condition I would have entered the "Vortex" in which I "think" is the "NOW"... or the "Eternal Moment" that just always is...

When I write these things I assume most people on this board have had "phenomena"... happen to them or have read and can relate... but, it is a forum so all you have to do is ask... and I will give you an answer to the best of my ability to communicate.. :D

Seraphis1

I Am Dude wrote on Dec 1^st, 2009 at 12:57pm:

I most certainly do not want anyone to leap over the basics.  I have never stated or implied this.  I'm curious as to what exactly the "hole in your heart" means, and the "Vortex."  Never came across these terms... Do you mean you experienced the activation of your heart chakra?  Is this what "hole in your heart" means?

wrote on Dec 1^st, 2009 at 4:39pm:

I'm also interested in this 'hole in your heart' that you are talking about. A family member had a TIA (transient ischemic attack) years ago, and found out he had an actual hole in his heart, which was repaired through much less invasive means than what you describe in your post. So, yes, that takes hold of my imagination and leaves me wondering what exactly this is.

Hi OBD (already answered b2) but just in case): It was a describption of a phenomena... while doing a Wave exercise my heart chakra opened at its center creating a torus it was flowing energy into what I think is a "Vortex" that if you read Eckhart Tolle's description of his awakening into the "now" if I had been able to sustain the condition I would have entered the "Vortex" in which I "think" is the "NOW"... or the "Eternal Moment" that just always is...

When I write these things I assume most people on this board have had "phenomena"... happen to them or have read and can relate... but, it is a forum so all you have to do is ask... and I will give you an answer to the best of my ability to communicate..

Seraphis1

Hi All: This is interesting… I’m working my way through Bruce Moen’s “Afterlife Knowledge Guidebook” for those of you who have not done the book yet… Bruce has set this up on a read as you practice motif… i.e… until you do an exercise you don’t read ahead… I have been doing the exercises over and over until I get some mastery of each exercise… you can’t just do them once… I am having particular difficulty with “the silly little finger bending” exercise… finding the precursor function to “intent” is particularly subtle and elusive… so it is slow going… but, I have progressed to guess what… Chapter 7 is of all things “Heart Intelligence”!!!! ???  :D Can you beat that!! :o

Seraphis1

Seraphis,

the books are magnificent but I found them much easier to use with the CDs.

That's funny, Saranpiece (sorry, OBD is affecting me -- cut that out!), I had difficulty with the finger bending thing too. Never could get into that one, particularly. I'm not very good at playing by the book. But I admire those who can! I think it shows persistence and careful attention to detail.

I love using cds, so I do that, and I use my own methods most of the time, out of a rather large assortment that has taken a while to collect. I do tend to hang out with one 'teacher' for a while, though, to get the main ideas. One advantage to going 'by the book' is that you don't have to trust techniques you haven't seen before doing. It may alleviate some people's fears and help convey the maker's intent better to get into the details through different kinds of instruction.

Blah blah each to his own. :)

Ultimately we are all one and our paths will lead home. The first shall be last and the last shall be first...It's a circle and we will get there.

This is really for Albert, whom I love very much and hope he takes no offense.

recoverer wrote on Dec 1^st, 2009 at 3:24pm:

If a person claims to be enlightened or makes up stories to validate his or her self, they basically make it so some people will believe they are a highly valid source of information, even when they aren't. When a person is intentionally dishonest, it does say something about his or her character. It is sad that new age people state that they don't want to be misled by a church, then they allow themselves to be misled by the false gurus and channelers of the World. Beau wrote on Dec 1st, 2009 at 2:38pm: Our sins are not the totality of our being.

Hi recoverer: Have you real all four of Bruce Moen's books??

S.

Seraphis1 wrote on Dec 2^nd, 2009 at 11:48am:

recoverer wrote on Dec 1st, 2009 at 3:24pm: If a person claims to be enlightened or makes up stories to validate his or her self, they basically make it so some people will believe they are a highly valid source of information, even when they aren't. When a person is intentionally dishonest, it does say something about his or her character. It is sad that new age people state that they don't want to be misled by a church, then they allow themselves to be misled by the false gurus and channelers of the World. Beau wrote on Dec 1st, 2009 at 2:38pm: Our sins are not the totality of our being. Hi recoverer: By whose authority do you equate enlightenment with your particular brand of moral codes. You seem to be spouting a White Anglo Saxon Protestant ethic that didn't even come into being until the mid 16th century and spawned a particular repressed minority which went around the world through the power of the sword putting clothes on native peoples who were very much mentally healthy and free emotionally. Just curious. S.

Seraphis:

I have all 5 of Bruce's books and read much of them.  Bruce isn't a guru, doesn't claim to be enlightened and infallible, so his books don't relate to what I wrote.

The bible is not infallible either as I think you would agree Albert. We have to go with what we are given. Jesus said some great things but much of what he said isn't in there and it's really too bad. But that's what makes the "scavenger hunt" so fascinating for all of us. To each his own way and we will all arrive at the perfect time.

recoverer wrote on Dec 2^nd, 2009 at 1:33pm:

Seraphis: I have all 5 of Bruce's books and read much of them.  Bruce isn't a guru, doesn't claim to be enlightened and infallible, so his books don't relate to what I wrote.

Hi recoverer: True he doesn't claim to be a guru or even enlightened... but, what would you call someone who has experienced the Aperture and the Emitter... chopped liver... but, the point is thank God or Monroe whichever Moen told us the truth as he experienced it and if you have read all his books I don't think the level of morality and purity would reach your lofty ideals because the truth is recoverer... the Hiero Gamos, Kundalini will confound you everytime...

Judge not that ye be not judged.

There are more things in Heaven and Earth than is dreamed of in your philosophy Horatio...

You still have not told us by whose authority you stand in judgement of what moral code governs who can be enlightened and who cannot be enlightened...

S.

Seraphis:

What are the Aperture and the Emitter?  Why are these things so important?  Are they crucial to enlightenment?

I wouldn't underestimate Recoverer's understanding and experience of the nonphysical.  I would bet you could learn a lot from him, OBD, ect...

There is much wisdom in their discernment.  You will find this one day.

I do not discount Albert in anyway shape or form. I have learned a lot from his posts. But he does seem to judge other peoples methods and with that I disagree. He is a beautiful soul and very willing to share. The board would not be the same without him. I do think he is hung up a bit on a Jesus that has not evolved and I believe we all evolve even G.O.D. And there is evidence to this fact. Recoverer's premise for discounting channels because they died horribly in his opinion is rather silly since Jesus supposedly died the most horrid death of all. I'm not sure where I stand on the resurrection yet, but it's not important to my believe in the Christ light. My Grandmother was very spiritual and loved Jesus with all her heart but she cast her eyes down on others who were not following what she believed was the ONE path. All roads lead to home (OM) We get there the best we can and I'm sure Jesus knows this otherwise he would have come and taken his years ago. When I say Jesus is Cool, I mean it from the depths of my being. He learns too. IMHO

Seraphis1, sorry about the workshop this weekend. But, there's always a reason, and the 'reason behind the reason' is always good. It sure doesn't always feel that way, but you just have to keep taking another step until you can see the beautiful view.

Sometimes it's right around the next bend.

wrote on Dec 3^rd, 2009 at 8:47am:

Seraphis1, sorry about the workshop this weekend. But, there's always a reason, and the 'reason behind the reason' is always good. It sure doesn't always feel that way, but you just have to keep taking another step until you can see the beautiful view. Sometimes it's right around the next bend.

Hi b2: Tho, P/T did not hurt Van Pragh and company... they might have not been a good fit for Bruce. The Oversoul knows best.

S.

nonphysicalguy wrote on Dec 3^rd, 2009 at 5:49am:

Seraphis: What are the Aperture and the Emitter?  Why are these things so important?  Are they crucial to enlightenment? I wouldn't underestimate Recoverer's understanding and experience of the nonphysical.  I would bet you could learn a lot from him, OBD, ect... There is much wisdom in their discernment.  You will find this one day.

Hi Non: Too complex to explain. You need to read Robert Monroe's "Ultimate Journey" to get a definitive answer. Of course, Bruce has described his visit.

S.

It isn't about judging people, it's about not letting people and other beings who intentionally seek to mislead to get away with doing so. If a person tries to steal your wallet, you don't have to judge he (or she) in order to stop him from doing so. You just simply have to recognize what's going on and stand up for yourself.

Regarding Beau's reference to Helen Schuchman (without naming her), there are a number of reasons beyond how her life ended up for which I believe ACIM is fraudulent.

Regarding Bruce and Robert's (Monroe) experience of the aperture, this just goes to show that you can experience such things without having to afterwards claim that you are some sort of enlightened being and it is okay for people to put you on a pedestal. Surrending to other people as many people do is completely uncalled for. That's what the guru tradition is about, surrendering your life to a person who claims to have the power to enlighten you. A person who knows, wouldn't associate himself with such a way, or recommend such gurus to other people, as Robert Bruce has done (Sai Baba, Adi Da, and Trungpa, and their crazy wisdom nonsense).

Bruce Moen and Robert Monroe opened the eyes of any people to their abilities to explore.  But I think it is wrong to take their written experiences, and then explore thinking "I am going to find the reincarnation center with the curls Bruce describes, just so."  It is possible you will find it, but Bruce called it like he saw it.  Might your experience be a little different?

Seraflush (Sorry, B2 and OOBD started this and like B2, I couldn't resist - you  can call me DorkM), what if i told you that the focus levels, as described were a belief system unto itself, and not real discreet stages?  What if I said, as I did in a recent thread that Focus 27, the most popular idea of heaven where all is possible with thought ( the summerland described in other NDEs) is really just an initial way station for people not yet ready to leave their earthly ways (and so, in itself a hollow heaven)?

These questions come up in exploring.  And rather than quote Bruce's or Monroe's books, or TMI, we should be writing down our own experiences and comparing notes.

My biggest gripe, is that if we get too tied up in someone else's description of the afterlife, then we adopt a belief system with expectations, etc.

Admittedly, if we are not experiencing these journeys, and making slow progress, we may wish to adopt another's beliefs to look forward to - for me, its not the way I want to explore.

Matthew

Stealing a wallet is in no way related to this discussion. People find their own way. That's what we are all trying to do here. Your method is a little fear oriented and even if you think they should fear something, it's none of your business if I may be so blunt. We express opinions here, but I think you are now the only one who tries to push people in another direction based on your guidance which can be as flawed as anyone elses and I include myself in that statement. You could be doing something very detrimental to the growth of someone who is approaching their path differently than you are. I respect you. I know you know that and I have been helped by many of your advices, but not the "good source" "bad source" stuff. I hope you will find a way to get beyond that and let people be who they are.

DorkM:

Seraflush? It sounds like attached to his body dudette is getting to you. :)

Alberto VO5

recoverer wrote on Dec 3^rd, 2009 at 1:37pm:

It isn't about judging people, it's about not letting people and other beings who intentionally seek to mislead to get away with doing so. If a person tries to steal your wallet, you don't have to judge he (or she) in order to stop him from doing so. You just simply have to recognize what's going on and stand up for yourself. Regarding Beau's reference to Helen Schuchman (without naming her), there are a number of reasons beyond how her life ended up for which I believe ACIM is fraudulent. Regarding Bruce and Robert's (Monroe) experience of the aperture, this just goes to show that you can experience such things without having to afterwards claim that you are some sort of enlightened being and it is okay for people to put you on a pedestal. Surrending to other people as many people do is completely uncalled for. That's what the guru tradition is about, surrendering your life to a person who claims to have the power to enlighten you. A person who knows, wouldn't associate himself with such a way, or recommend such gurus to other people, as Robert Bruce has done (Sai Baba, Adi Da, and Trungpa, and their crazy wisdom nonsense).

Hi Recoverer: I still don't see the answer to the question of by whose authority do you equate enlightenment to a particular moral code.

But "fraud" is everywhere in every activity... how can you be the "cop" for everyone on the planet... each of us has to cultivate a "bs" meter... and function according to that ability to psyche out the truth about the teachers you run into... by the way I am not defending the people you are "outing" because most of them I don't know or have heard of except "sai baba" I had a friend who told me the same stuff about that person... but, he could be using your sources... but, it is not important... what is important is each person has to find out for themselves the truth about the teachers they run into... one man crusades are suspect in themselves...

S.

Quote:

Hi Non: Too complex to explain. You need to read Robert Monroe's "Ultimate Journey" to get a definitive answer. Of course, Bruce has described his visit.

So you consider these things to be crucial to one's enlightenment, and yet you can't even explain them..  Not even a simplified breakdown?  Hmm.  Odd.  Seems to me like you don't know what your talking about.

Regarding you hounding Recoverer about his moral code for enlightenment... I'm willing to bet he developed his own code through experience, proper research, and discernment.  Your code seems to be whatever Robert Monroe and Bruce Moen say. 

There have been many questions asked to you on other threads which you have avoided as well.. talk about hypocrisy. 

<<[quote author=58737F511C0 link=1259684941/37#37 date=1259863602]Bruce Moen and Robert Monroe opened the eyes of any people to their abilities to explore.  But I think it is wrong to take their written experiences, and then explore thinking "I am going to find the reincarnation center with the curls Bruce describes, just so."  It is possible you will find it, but Bruce called it like he saw it.  Might your experience be a little different?>>

Hi Doc: Don’t quite know what you mean. At what point did I say I was exploring specific areas that BM and RM were exploring… for the record, my experiences through Hemi Sync were orders of magnitude faster, more consistent, more reliable and more sustained, orderly and meaningful than anything I ever attempted, I achieved Samadhi only twice in my life of Yogic meditation and it was after I was not even in an organized system, but, just casually maintaining and that is over a period of some 20 years of work on and off. In Gateway, I achieve Samadhi on roughly the third day of work… (and it surprised the hell out of me) that was not part of Gateway!!… it just happened!! so to say without “evidence” and considerable knowledge of another persons work is pretty presumptious to say the least… but, I respect your ideas and careful thought… but, I think you need a lot more info about people’s work and goals to draw conclusions… the other thing is we better get confirmation of specific realities otherwise they are not real as “laws and common events” they are mercurial illusions real to only one person…. I hope you get what I mean…

S.

<<Seraflush (Sorry, B2 and OOBD started this and like B2, I couldn't resist - you  can call me DorkM), what if i told you that the focus levels, as described were a belief system unto itself, and not real discreet stages?  What if I said, as I did in a recent thread that Focus 27, the most popular idea of heaven where all is possible with thought ( the summerland described in other NDEs) is really just an initial way station for people not yet ready to leave their earthly ways (and so, in itself a hollow heaven)?

These questions come up in exploring.  And rather than quote Bruce's or Monroe's books, or TMI, we should be writing down our own experiences and comparing notes.>>

Doc: We’ve been over this territory many, many times… the focus levels are arbitrary demarcation points established by reverse engineering to the satisfaction of primarily Robert Monroe… if you paid attention when you read his books, Monroe admits to not being a great researcher… he admits that he was not an exhaustive back checker of  the rough evidence he collected… he decided that it was enough to get enough confirmation that satisfied “him” personally that what he was calling a “known” was valid… it is up to YOU… to decide if you can put his info in YOUR box of knowns… otherwise yes to you… it is just a belief like all other beliefs…

(by the way am I supposed to be insulted by the nickname “seraflush”???)

S.

Nonphysical Guy,
I'm glad you are taking up for Albert, but no one is beating him up here. We all have sources we have studied for many years and we all have our techniques for advancement. Fearmongering is not advancement in my opinion. You are welcome to follow his lead and good luck to you. Some of us have very strange ideas about what we think it's all about. I don't want anyone telling me what to read and what to fear reading and I think I speak for most on this highly open minded board. I hope you stick around.

Nah, the nickname was just a joke that OOD seemed to be playing with in the thread and b2 picked up on, Sera....... oh forget it.  Can I call you Al?

Seriously, my comments stemmed from your references to Monroe/Moen speak as if they were accepted topgraphy - the aperture and emmitter.  The disc, etc. are well described in the Voyages and Journeys books.  However, no one described them exactly the same before.  It means that M/M were pioneers (which attracts us to their writings).  And yet their were billions before writing of their own afterlife experiences without noticing these specific focus levels or things described by them.  Why was that?

Could it be that our afterlife experience is, to some extent individually based, and not as defined a known as some suppose?  There is ample reason to believe this to be true.  "There are many mansions in my Father's house," (to paraphrase).

I know it seems on that on a Bruce Moen run discussion forum, I'm bringing this up, but I think in some ways he would support this view - since he encourages folks not to follow his description, but to do the exploration.

As to my assuming you were a "blind follower" so to speak of M and M - I never made the assumption at  all, but was merely reacting to the content of your posts.  Reaching Samadhi is rare in a lifetime, so my hat is off to you, for having accomplished it twice.

Matthew

Seraphis 1 wrote: Hi Recoverer: I still don't see the answer to the question of by whose authority do you equate enlightenment to a particular moral code.

Recoverer responds: What I've said has nothing to do with anybody's authority. It is a matter of finding that spiritual growth is about the kind of person you become, rather than what somebody has supposedly realized. If a person claims to be a master but doesn't treat others with love and respect, then what precisely is he a master of?

I believe we are all pieces of God, without none of us standing above the other, and without God's independence being nullified. Therefore, it doesn't make sense for one person to have others treat him (or her) as if he is God more than other people.

When it comes to myself, I find the thought of other people putting me on a pedestal to be really distastefull (not to suggest that they do ;)). I believe it is incredibly disrespectful to the divinity of others when a person expects others to treat himself as if he is holier than them.

Even if a person does have more knowledge than others, if he obtained it in a manner that is balanced, he wouldn't consider himself to be superior to others.

Yet, there have been many gurus on ego trips who "allow" other people to put them on a pedestal. In fact, in either subtle or overt ways they encourage it.

If a person really understood about not glorifying himself above others, as soon as he saw that people were glorifying him in some way, he would stop them from doing so. Therefore, such action can't be blamed on the followers.

I believe that once a person understands about the above, he'll be able to quickly determine if a person is presenting himself in a manner that is inappropriate.

None of us is infallible and all knowing, and therefore we shouldn't present ourselves as if we are. Nor should we make up stories to build a reputation, such as how a child molesting guru who went by the name of Sai Baba physically appeared to one's self in white light.

Doc:

First of all, I agree that we should find out for ourself rather than relying on somebody else's parameters, no matter who sets them.

I haven't experienced the aperture, but others besides Moen and Monroe have, or at least ways something similar. A guy named Tayesin at astralpulse.com spoke of having such an experience, and he hadn't read about Monroe's and Moen's experience.

P.M.H. Atwater spoke of an experince that perhaps speaks of the same thing, only in a different way. Below are her words (I inserted dots when I broke up her dialogue).

"Before my view there spun two objects I'll call cyclones for lack of a better word. One was big at the top, narrowing to a spout. The other was inverted directly below, being big on the bottom and coming up to a spout. They formed an hourglass shape, yet the two spouts did not meet in the middle. Instead, there radiated out from that spot a kind of light I hesitate to call light. I don't know what to call it. The English language doesn't have such a word. Its rays shot out in all directions. I was suspended near the middle as I gazed in awe at the immensity of what towered before me. Both cyclones were spinning at tremendous speeds. The cyclone on the top was spinning clockwise. The one on the bottom was spinning counter-clockwise. Inside the upper cone, I glanced a tiny grain of sand I recognized to be me - or the Phyllis I had once been. Superimposed over Phyllis and the life she was living was all her past and future lives. Everything was happening AT THE SAME TIME IN THE SAME SPACE!

I also recognized others around Phyllis and the same thing was happening to them. I saw multitudes of other people everywhere inside the cone and the same thing was happening to all of them. I felt like I was viewing all of life and I came to realize time and space do not exist at all. I saw no movements that raised or lowered, went backwards or forwards, no left or right. What I saw was only expansion and contraction. No one was greater or less than anyone else, but some people were expanded out and growing more, others were so contracted they seemed to shrink and wither.

As I searched for more clues to life, I noticed Phyllis was also in the cyclone on the bottom and in the exact same position as on the top, and everyone else was there too. The bottom cyclone was a mirror image of the upper one. They were reflections of each other. As above, so below. Fascinating as this was, my attention soon turned to the middle. That's where I wanted to go, into it and through it. I felt as if it were the doorway to God. At last I would discover the source of God Itself.

I was on my way there. It was then that I heard my son's sounds. Slowly I found myself being pulled back. I never heard any words, only the sound of his voice. There was something different about it. There was love in his voice. A different kind of love. It was not the love of a son for his mother. It was something new - at least for me. It was the sound of one human being loving another human being because he wanted to, not because he was expected to. It didn't even matter if the other person loved back. The only thing that mattered was Kelly giving love freely because Kelly wanted to. His love was open, without any expectations, restrictions or standards. It was unconditional love. Real love! I really didn't believe that special kind of love existed on the Earth-realm. I had heard of it before but had associated it with Divine or Saintly revelations. It was happening now and my son was giving it. Such a precious gift was worthy of being received.

I choose to return and live again. There were no angels, or anyone else egging me along. I made the conscious choice and when I did, the cyclones disappeared and my living room returned. I slipped back into my body, entering again through the top of the head. This time, my body did not respond. It felt cooler and strange. I panicked. Instantly I became a tiny cheerleader and game coach, scurrying up and down my frame shouting words like: hey team I'm back, wake up everyone, I'm back now, I'm sorry I did this to you. I won't do it again, I'm really back to stay this time, come on everyone, I'm back. The air sacs in the lungs were the hardest to activate. It took real effort to get the bellows to expand. With the first sweep of breath, my consciousness returned to my head area and my eyes opened.
....
...
The first lecture paid for the trip and told me why I was there. It was given by Dr. William Tiller, a physicist with Stanford University in California. His topic was THE ETERNAL NOW, and he illustrated his talk by having his graphs and drawings projected onto a huge stage screen. He described at length what he felt the greater reality to be, that what we really are is an energy mass and how that energy worked. The climax of his talk came when he spoke of The Eternal Now, what he felt it looked like and how it functioned.

It was his belief that ALL THINGS HAPPENED AT THE SAME TIME IN THE SAME SPACE. The drawing flashed on the screen was of two cyclones inverted over each other, and where the two spouts should have met, there radiated an immense light shooting out in all directions.

There's a lot more to life than I had ever realized and I erupted from my chair. He saw it too. He knew about the cyclones! I wasn't crazy after all! I wasn't mad! I didn't hallucinate! It was all real! I really saw it! What happened to me was valid! I was sane! The learning continues."

http://www.near-death.com/atwater_nde.html

Beau

My goal is not so much to defend Recoverer; he can do this for himself if he feels the need.  Rather, I wish to convey to Seraphizzle Fo Shizzle that there is wisdom in discernment.

Hi DocM:  ;D Finally we are beginning to get on the same page. Do you remember what thread the Seraflush came up in.  8-)

<<Seriously, my comments stemmed from your references to Monroe/Moen speak as if they were accepted topgraphy - the aperture and emmitter.  The disc, etc. are well described in the Voyages and Journeys books.  However, no one described them exactly the same before.  It means that M/M were pioneers (which attracts us to their writings).  And yet their were billions before writing of their own afterlife experiences without noticing these specific focus levels or things described by them.  Why was that?>>

Firstly, M/M are the first to my knowledge to take an everyday approach to the material… but, remember Moen is an extension of Monroe… Monroe meticulously avoided the Chakra stuff (he refused to allow his trainers to use any occult or accepted terminology in the world of mysticism, because he was forging a modern look and was determined to take the mysterious and ominous out of the equation… plus he was cultivating the mainstream scientific community and they don’t walk they run from the occult.)

The focus levels were established as a training tool for the seminars… it allowed Monroe to deal with a broad crosssection of people who had from no acquaintance with this new look at the non-physical to those who had a deep occult and mystical vocabulary and understanding… but, the seminars are geared to the lowest common denominator of student… that’s why TMI is careful not to take any given class too far too fast… that is why one MUST take Gateway as a first class… no matter who you think you are they will not allow anyone to take classes out of a specific order and it all begins with Gateway… of course, there was good material before TMI… but, I can tell you this with certainty… Hemi-sync is the difference… hemi-sync allows 99.9 % of the people who come to TMI to experience some level of the non-physical… in the world of spiritual unfoldment only very advance Soul’s ever really get anywhere because the teachers have no skills with ordinary people… they don’t have hemi-sync..

S

<<Recoverer responds: What I've said has nothing to do with anybody's authority. It is a matter of finding that spiritual growth is about the kind of person you become, rather than what somebody has supposedly realized. If a person claims to be a master but doesn't treat others with love and respect, then what precisely is he a master of?>>

Hi Recoverer: But that is a coda with a very specific thrust… what I am telling you is this the reason Guru’s require very strict adherence to certain moral behavioral standards before they will take on a “chela” is that “spiritual power” doesn’t ask you if you are good are bad… anyone who works hard enough can acquire it… but, it will destroy you if you are immoral… but, that comes when you abuse the power you acquire… I suspect you’ve focused on a few bad apples and are missing big picture of very good people who are working to the best of their ability to develop the students that come to them for training… lucky is the student who finds a “real” teacher who does know something… and that is the trick.

S.

Discernment is in the mind of the one doing the discerning. To say someone is not discerning is your own problem not theirs.

Seraphis:

When it comes to gurus there are a lot of bad apples--I say this after really looking into the matter. In fact, the guru thing has become so soiled, anybody who knew better wouldn't assume such a role.

The guru system comes from India. There are four key points to this system. One, a person needs to surrender his (or her) life to his guru. Two, surrendering to a guru is the same thing as surrendering to God. Three, a Guru's wisdom is infallible, therefore he is never wrong. Four, the guru enables a person to become enlightened.

Responses:
-One, it is a big mistake to surrender one's life to another person. A truly wise and honest person would never expect other people to do so.
-Two, surrendering to a Guru isn't the same thing as surrendering to God.  It is a matter of surrendering one's self to a person who is egotistical enough to have people do such a thing.
-Three, none of us is infallible, and an honest person would never set things up so people put his words before their own intelligence, common sense, conscience and heart.
-four, a person might be able to provide some insights, but he can't empower other people to grow spiritually. 

Beau

I agree with nonphysicalguy.  It is sometimes apparent when one lacks discernment.  This can be detrimental to one's growth.

Of course you are right and so is he Dude, but the discernment is for the discerner to make on his own. Like telling people ouija boards are evil...when it is still you coming back to you. That is a lesson only to be learned through experience. I'm not discounting discernment. I'm saying that the argument on this board has flaws. To say don't try that to someone is creating a fear in some that is unnecessary. Now if they are truly open already no big deal, but if they are emerging that can be very damaging. Like crucifying ACIM or SETH because it does not meet a particular standard of their own self improvement. That's all I'm saying. We all need our own discernment and sometimes it can be helpful to hear it from another person that you trust. But that person has a big responsiblity not to undermine another's inner workings...yeah?

Most definitely.  I am a huge fan of the Seth material, although I am aware that there are some flaws within it, not unlike any other source.  This does not mean that the Seth material should be avoided, or feared.  It means that discernment is needed.  Some tend to throw the baby out with the bath water, others find that they can benefit from it without having to worship the entire body of knowledge as if it were God's word.  The problem that is being brought up is when a source is idolized and seen without faults.. when one trusts fully in the source without questioning it's validity or testing it's truth through personal experience.

Words are sometimes like swords, and it is compelling to sharpen them and polish them so that we can admire their beauty. It is difficult to imagine a 'thrill' in deliberately blunting such an instrument.

I'm not sure what is so fascinating about a sword, but it is there, bright and shining, between ourselves and who we believe, at times, to be our enemy.

But, our enemy is also our friend. There is always another way to see the situation. Perhaps we regret it later when we use the sword against our friend. Or, perhaps, our friend regrets being in the path of our sword.

Lately, it seems not to be a matter of specific battles, but a refining of the materials used.

We could just as easily accuse the earth itself of mistreating us, of misleading us, because we fall down in a ditch. Just a thought.

I don't mean to dash any one with a sword I promise, but I do get tired of hashing out this issue. I think most of us agree that we are not our brothers source, merely offering some guidance when asked for and only then. Otherwise we are pulling them off of their path which may even lead us to richer finds.

Beau wrote on Dec 4^th, 2009 at 9:52am:

I don't mean to dash any one with a sword I promise, but I do get tired of hashing out this issue. I think most of us agree that we are not our brothers source, merely offering some guidance when asked for and only then. Otherwise we are pulling them off of their path which may even lead us to richer finds.

Hi Beau: I kept this going because I needed to know more about the thrust of recoverer's positions and pre-occupations... I'm done with that issue... but I strongly recommend that people re-read BM's Voyage into the Unknown p. 188 Black Stuff... there is also a modus operandi for evaluating a channeled source... very instructive.

S

I have recently read it and I believe it still emanates from ones own fears. That's why it can be over come.
Like all fears. It was a scary passage though.

Beau wrote on Dec 4^th, 2009 at 12:58pm:

I have recently read it and I believe it still emanates from ones own fears. That's why it can be over come. Like all fears. It was a scary passage though.

Hi Beau: The important thing I personally got from that material is the the Black Stuff just keeps streaming off and there is no end to it... and it STICKS TO YOU... Rebecca advises Moen not to engage it... "see it NOT there..." good advice... I recently saw two individuals I would rather not have in my environment "NOT THERE" and they both moved to other buildings... they are happy and I am happy... but, it does work.

S.

Greetings Everyone.

   I just read this whole thread now and was very entertained and enlightened at the same time. It brought memories of a movie by The Beatles called "Yellow Submarine". While trying to reach Pepperland, they got lost in a sea of holes. Ringo saved a hole in his pocket and later used the hole to free Sargeant Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band from the prison created by the Blue Meanies.

   Maybe holes can be portals to other dimensions and offer a torroidal energy bridge linking this multiverse together?

Ralph

Yeah that's right. It's the "See it not there" that makes me think it comes from our own subjective fears and not some outside force as if there could actually be one. As we are all ONE. Even the blue meanies were eventually dealt with as I recall.

Speaking of seaworthiness, I came upon a quotation in a photograph today. I never could quite 'get it' but here it is:

"Light is an appointment we must all keep when we are quiet and can find the way."

I think it has something to do with lighthouses. Maybe even more than that.

A new "ME"!!

12/04/09 Evening session:

After the revelation, very disoriented again, session characterized by a great wink out… started heart intelligence then didn't recover consciousness until the Monroe's voice on Wave disc… cued me… lost winked out again… returned to consciousness… refreshed but no memory… the perceiver… and the interpreter disconnected…

[Slept fitfully… dreamed… can't publish this dream in the open.]

12/05/09 Morning session:

[Written on the evening of 12/06/09]

Still winking out… clearly I am in another crisis… but, this time it is quite different… I have lost my “Interpreter” I knew… that whole belief system had vanished… I am without a foundation that I always depended upon… re-reading p. 56 AKG… I realize I won’t be able to use my Bahia friend... this situation called for somethingelse and it is in the text… step away from the work… stand down… don't do the sessions for a few days… do something in the outside world…

In doing the above I discovered a new “ME”… To understand what happened you need to know the old “ME”…

[I am an RC Helicopter enthusiast, but, I fly ready to fly kits… I don’t build them… they are very complex and I usually send them to the shop and have them repair… because if you fly them you will crash them… well I wanted to spend all of my time flying but I had three crashed unuseable Helicopters which were useless, I have no schematics or tools, as I used to believe I needed… but…!! Here is what happened.]

I just sat down and took them all apart… then I intuitively began to put a single flyable Helicopter together… all I had was my intuition and a single Philips screw driver… the rest is history… I have been flying all weekend… and on Monday morning I plan on getting back to my “meditation/hemi-sync” regimen. I am astonished, to say the least my new “Interpreter” is an amazingly competent technician/mechanic… that is decidedly not the “Me” I used to know and be…

S. 

I think there is a lot to this Serapahis, I find that if I am away from my meditations for a few days or a week the next ones are really quite amazing. Especially if I have been doing something physical that has engaged my interest in the physical world. Doing the play that I am in right now is very hard for me to work on and it leaves less time for study of meditation, but when I do get there it is wild man.

Beau wrote on Dec 7^th, 2009 at 7:30am:

I think there is a lot to this Serapahis, I find that if I am away from my meditations for a few days or a week the next ones are really quite amazing. Especially if I have been doing something physical that has engaged my interest in the physical world. Doing the play that I am in right now is very hard for me to work on and it leaves less time for study of meditation, but when I do get there it is wild man.

12/07/09 morning session:

Hi Beau: I am still "winking out" a bit... I think my "interpreter" function is weaker... and my "perceiver" function is stronger...(dominant) but, the “perceiver” function is very much more amorphous and difficult to keep conscious. Humm…

S.

I find my interpreter works best after I've gotten through the meditation and am just relaxing after Bob brings me back.

Seraphis1 wrote: <<I just sat down and took them all apart… the I intuitively began to put a single flyable Helicopter together… all I had was my intuition and a single Philips screw driver… the rest his history… I have been flying all weekend… and on Monday morning I plan on getting back to my “meditation/hemi-sync” regimen. I am astonished, to say the least my new “Interpreter” is an amazingly competent technician/mechanic… that is decidedly not the “Me” I used to know and be…>>

Here is my chopper:

https://www.opendrive.com/account.php?file_id=5853711_eFS60&fid=4295511911&fopen=tS. 

Hi Seraphis,

OpenDrive keeps shortening your forwarding address and asking for a log in, which I can't do.  Do you know how I could get past that?

Bets

betson wrote on Dec 7^th, 2009 at 10:14pm:

Hi Seraphis, OpenDrive keeps shortening your forwarding address and asking for a log in, which I can't do.  Do you know how I could get past that? Bets

Hi bets: I don't but maybe technical difficulties does.

S.

betson wrote on Dec 7^th, 2009 at 10:14pm:

Hi Seraphis, OpenDrive keeps shortening your forwarding address and asking for a log in, which I can't do.  Do you know how I could get past that? Bets

Hi Bets: Try it now. I changes an option.

S.

Hi,

Phooey, it's still happening.  Maybe it's my Mac.
:) I'll just imagine it. 

Oh I get it-- That's so amazing, Seraphis! I didn't know such powers could work with technological things!

I once let what I then called my intutition take over doing an entire painting and it turned out well. Now I see it as my Higher Self that did it. I don't know how to tell the difference  between Higher Self and Interpretor, etc when conscious control is handed over.

Bets