A letter to an atheist by Alan McDougall

Is there a reason for living that goes beyond that of our earthly mortal life on earth? I say there is, how you can be so sure that there beyond life. Why not just try to consider that there just might be a god.

Life after death is unfortunately something neither I nor someone else can ever prove to, I, however, strongly believe we continue to exist in some form or other in dimensions of purpose, reason, beauty and that our consciousness continues to exist eternally after death. Otherwise our earthly fleeting life is nothing but a cruel joke of nature

Have you ever thought that to be an absolute atheist takes more faith and is more difficult to rationalize than one like me who believes there is a creator? How could nothing evolve from nothing and become everything?

This logic demands that dark nothing morphed into everything, nothing created energy time matter and finally life out of inanimate energy. I see this as a ridiculous assumption; I am left to believe that all existence including mysterious life evolved without reason or purpose. Do you really believe this as a fact?

Let us consider, what life is, how could the unimaginable almost infinitely complex molecule DNA of life came into existence so quickly in relation to cosmological time. Life existed on the primordial earth just a moment after its creation, again in cosmological time?

The universe is unimaginable complex and sustains itself by exact precise fundamental constants, if this harmony differed in the infinitesimal fraction we would simply not exist; indeed the earth itself would not exist.

A billion trillion googolplex monkeys typing for eternity would not produce even one of Shakespeare sonnets. Another analogy, if we took a billion airplanes, filled them with water, concrete and bricks and dumped the whole continuously on the earth for a billion years, would it magically and randomly form the beautiful Taj Mahal or the Sydney Opera house?

But you insist I must accept the beautiful universe a of unimaginable precision came into existence this illogical way

When life needs to evolve due to changing circumstances, does it tell itself to alter its own DNA for the new conditions or could there be a watch maker resetting the watch

I see god adjusting the DNA overlooking his own creation if you like

Our breathtaking beautiful is expanding and anything that expands must have a beginning. Can you prove there is no god of course you can’t, can I of course I can’t, but at least I can offer circumstantial evidence...

Atheism is a faith belief system just like anything that requires belief without evidence.

As an amateur astronomer leaves me with an unshakable belief that am awesome intellect created the universe and everything else

Look out the sparking water that quenches your thirst, the fruit that feeds you, and invigorated your body. There is beauty everywhere and you must search for real ugliness. Go outside on a moonless night and reflect on the wonder of the cosmos that sparkles above you. the great snow capped mountains and streams, the blue sky and the rise of the sun at dawn and its golden glow as it sets. In the early morning go and listen to the sounds of nature, birds chirping like tiny electrons in the mind of god. The wind that you breathe the precious nourishment supplied by mother earth.

Then explain to me how chance can bring this all about. To me there is a wonderful creative behind all this glory if only we would look at it.

Like all things the universe has a beginning and this demands a creator, for nothing can exist with a prime cause. The universe will end but for that we will just have to wait

Even atheistic scientists say our universe is precise, ordered with beautiful mathematical constants. One great astronomer said the universe was less like a great well oiled machine and more like a beautiful ongoing thought

I believe in God, what you believe is your right but to me a godless creation is bleak and cold

What do you people believe, No god or God??????????????????????????????

No god and creation is just as beautiful and wonderful to me as it is to you. :)

And I'm sorry atheism is NOT a belief system because it is an absence of a belief system.

Atheism is, of course a belief system.  A belief that there is no God, or deities leads many atheists to believe that there is nothing but the physical world.  Afterlife exploration has shown that there is an atheist realm of "soul statues."  People who believe so completely that there is no God, and no heaven/afterlife, that they believe death is nonexistence.

Thus, when these atheists die, they appear as inanimate statues.  Because their lack of belief is a belief system.  They believe that after the physical world there is nothing, or that death is a "sleep."  They appear motionless and lifeless in the spiritual realms.  They stay that way, by their own misguided will power and beliefs for centuries/eons.   

As per your belief it is done unto you.

Matthew

Atheism is NOT a belief system. It is a lack of a belief.It would be a belief system if atheism were defined as "the belief that there are no deities", but that is in an incorrect definition.

Atheism is simply "non-theism" (the two are synonymous). Therefore, all that is required to be an atheist is NOT to be a theist. Since theism is the belief in deities, atheism is merely the lack of belief in deities.


I know that there is an afterlife and I am an atheist.  Explain that one. I don't have to believe in god to accept the fact that there is an afterlife.

Supermodel,

Most atheists specifically do not believe in God, not just deities in general.  Since afterlife belief usually implies an immortal soul, and since many afterlife explorers have confirmed that there is a divinity (albeit in a way many of us cannot understand while incarnate), I am not sure how you became an atheist who believes in the afterlife - it certainly would be interesting to hear your beliefs.

For many atheists, the lack of belief in God, overall leads to a belief in science and man in the physical world.  This is why, afterlife explorers (including Bruce Moen),  have encountered atheists in these lifeless soul statues - since they believed that death was non-existence.

From what I have seen, as well as others on this site, it appears that the driving force of the universe, heaven and earth, is love.  Many, even non-religious people have found that God is the source of this love.  Our own post-mortem fate may, to a large extent be based on how loving we have become, and our beliefs. 

I would say, keep an open mind.  If you believe in love and the afterlife, you may be very different than most atheists in a number of fundamental ways.

Matthew

:)

Well, if you do not believe in deities, then you BELIEVE that there are no deities.  If you don't believe in something, it can also be said that you BELIEVE in the nonexistence of that thing.  The belief in the nonexistence of deities may be one belief in a pool of other beliefs regarding the afterlife, rather than it being an entire belief system in itself- but a belief it is.

Ok.....

It takes no faith to not believe in something. Do you know what the definition of faith is? It is believing in something in the absence of evidence. In other words, it's the opposite of coming to a conclusion based on something real and tangible. The non-existence of something is not a belief.

If absence of belief is belief
then not collecting stamps is a hobby,
and not playing tennis is a sport....

That's the best way I can describe it...but no atheism is not a belief...it is not a belief system.

It is the ABSENCE of a belief

supermodel wrote on Nov 3^rd, 2009 at 12:09am:

Ok..... It takes no faith to not believe in something. Do you know what the definition of faith is? It is believing in something in the absence of evidence.

Exactly, there is no evidence that there cannot be an all-powerful entity who is/was involved in the creation of all that exists, hence it is a belief to make up your mind that there isn't one.

There may well not be a God.  But we, collectively, can't know it one way or the other so long as we are ignorant of any given aspects of existence and its origin.

Lack of belief one way or the other would lead one to something closer to agnosticism or ignosticism.

To declare the absence of something that many believe in (and not all of them on blind faith alone; logic and/or personal experience plays a role) requires faith.

DocM wrote on Nov 2^nd, 2009 at 11:01pm:

Atheism is, of course a belief system.  A belief that there is no God, or deities leads many atheists to believe that there is nothing but the physical world.  Afterlife exploration has shown that there is an atheist realm of "soul statues."  People who believe so completely that there is no God, and no heaven/afterlife, that they believe death is nonexistence. Thus, when these atheists die, they appear as inanimate statues.  Because their lack of belief is a belief system.  They believe that after the physical world there is nothing, or that death is a "sleep."  They appear motionless and lifeless in the spiritual realms.  They stay that way, by their own misguided will power and beliefs for centuries/eons.    As per your belief it is done unto you. Matthew

Matthew now that is an interested observation, we go where we insist to go, so those that love the idea of hell just might put themselves there

Alan

Supermodel

Let's get to the root of what we are discussing.  Is atheism a belief or not a belief?  Is not believing in something different than believing in something? 

A belief is a psychological state in which one holds an idea to be valid. 

Atheists hold the idea that "deities do not exist" to be true.  There is no difference from "not believing in deities" and "believing that there are no deities."  They are just different ways to say the same thing.  This is simply common sense, and hopefully the conclusion of this discussion. 

It is invalid to compare beliefs to sports and hobbies.  They are totally different concepts. 

You have faith that there exists no deities, for you have no evidence to support this idea.  But it IS an idea which you hold as VALID, and this is what a belief is my friend.

You are confusing yourself by using negatives in your wording, rather than positives.  For example, I can say, "I don't believe Michael Jackson is dead."  This is no different from saying, "I believe Michael Jackson is alive."  They are both the same exact thing, just worded differently.  Both are ideas which one holds as valid.  "I don't believe that Michael Jackson is dead- I believe Michael Jackson is alive."  "I don't believe that deities are real- I believe that deities are fake."  Same thing.

But no biggie- just sharing what most would agree is common sense.  :D

Ok.

Go tell an atheist that....


"If the believer responds that the atheist is expressing belief, namely belief that all existents necessarily furnish evidence of their existence, we might ask him whether he believes in dragons or Santa Claus. The answer is almost certain to be no. On what grounds does the religious believer deny the existence of dragons? If absence of evidence allows the existence of God why does it not also allow the existence of dragons, fairies at the bottom of the garden, the Cheshire Cat, Santa Claus and all other entities dreamed up by poets, novelists, science fiction writers and so on?"


"The average theologian (there are exceptions, of course) uses "atheist" to mean a person who denies the existence of a God. Even an atheist would agree that some atheists (a small minority) would fit this definition. However, most atheists would stongly dispute the adequacy of this definition. Rather, they would hold that an atheist is a person without a belief in God. The distiniction is small but important. Denying something means that you have knowledge of what it is that you are being asked to affirm, but that you have rejected that particular concept. To be without a belief in God merely means that the term "god" has no importance, or possibly no meaning, to you. Belief in God is not a factor in your life. Surely this is quite different from denying the existence of God. Atheism is not a belief as such. It is the lack of belief. "

Is "atheist" a bad word around here?

NOTE: I quoted some atheists here because this is the response you will get if you tell an atheist that atheism is a belief. It is not. It is lack of belief.

I Am Dude wrote on Nov 3^rd, 2009 at 4:34am:

Supermodel It is invalid to compare beliefs to sports and hobbies.  They are totally different concepts.

How is it invalid?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sGT25Oj-6rc&feature=related

A cute little video explaining it...

That video is very funny and makes a lot of sense, but perhaps what we have here is a disbelief system...I"M KIDDING! It's all digital really ultimately, zeros and ones, yeses and nos and so on...off and on. But then there is the question of questioning, the agnostic, hmmm...The problem with solving the agnostic question is that most people who feel they have answered it usually feel they have answered it for everyone despite what they say. I wonder if we didn't sleep at all and it had no adverse effect on our bodies and we could phase in and out of C1 at will, if it would be easier or harder to believe in an ultimate end of consciousness...unconsciousness is really the only thing that has given me pause in my life from diving in head first to total acceptance of the validity of after life realms.

Back to the thread, I think Athiests have a belief system just like scientists have one. It just doesn't include god. They believe they will die and there will be nothing ...the end. That is a belief system.

People can define their beliefs.  I prefer the term agnostic for those who have no evidence for the existence of God, but do not say there isn't a God:

"Agnosticism (Greek: α- a-, without + γνώσις gnōsis, knowledge; after Gnosticism) is the philosophical view that the truth value of certain claims — particularly metaphysical claims regarding theology, afterlife or the existence of deities, spiritual beings, or even ultimate reality — are unknown or, in some forms of agnosticism, unknowable.[1]It is not a religious declaration in itself, and an agnostic may also be a theist or an atheist.[2]"

I am an agnostic atheist...most atheists are.

Hi-

something which may be pertinent to the discussion. Check out the website of the Campaign for Philosophical Freedom - http://www.cfpf.org.uk/.

It is run by atheist Michael Roll who accepts the existence of the afterlife but treats it as a branch of physics (interestingly he does'nt accept reincarnation though).

Dave

I'd read his book for sure as I'm not married to reincarnation or a supreme diety as such.

Atheism is a belief system like any other system that can not be proved.

It takes just as much faith to believe when you die you vanish from existence and life is meaningless as it does to believe in the Divine and that life has meaning right into the afterlife

sigh.....

Don't worry, supermodel, I watched the video! It's really pretty funny to hear the exact words come out of Alan that were used in the video. :)

wrote on Nov 4^th, 2009 at 5:54pm:

Don't worry, supermodel, I watched the video! It's really pretty funny to hear the exact words come out of Alan that were used in the video. :)

What VIDEO??

Look back earlier on this thread, Alan. Supermodel posted a link to a video explaining her own particular logic as an agnostic atheist. The comment you just made is the exact comment I'm sure she has heard many times. Not that it is really any of my business, except that I watched several videos there by a few different people, and found them helpful in understanding some alternate viewpoints. I personally find some ready humor in all this, but anyone who doesn't... apologies to them.

Okay, I've thought about this a little. If one is agnostic then I guess there is no belief system because certainly that is an evolutionary process and the guy said most atheists are really agnostic. At least that is what I got out of it. But I still say a "dyed in the wool" atheist who is certain there is no afterlife is following a belief system. But I also think the argument either way is not really amounting to a hill of beans unless one is an atheist. I wouldn't want someone telling me I had a belief system when they don't know me at all.

It doesn't matter how you word it- every thought we have, every idea we accept, every action we take, everything we perceive- are all a result of a particular belief system.  Even claiming to not believe in anything is a result of some kind of belief system.  If someone holds the idea that they don't believe in anything, then that is a belief BY DEFINITION.  It seems some think that having a belief system is a negative thing- this is not the case.  It is simply the nature of our consciousness. 

This is something simple that you can try yourself-  any idea or thought that comes to your head, whether it is "I don't believe in god" or "I like the Beatles" or whatever, explore that thought or idea.  Ask, why do I think this?  Explore each resulting idea in the same way, until you can't take it any further.  You now have yourself a core belief from which the other beliefs stemmed.  It then becomes apparent that everything that occurs in your mind is a result of your beliefs.

THank you beau and b2 for understanding.... ;)

Would tend to believe (!) that we can't get out of having a belief system. I believe there are no pink monkeys on Mars but that's just my belief ( there might be ! ). There's nothing wrong or right about having a belief system...and there's nothing wrong with atheism if thats part of your belief system.

Dave

Oh dear...now its "PART of of your belief system". My dear Heisenberg I think we are headed down a rocky road now.  ;)

Agreed...I'll think i'll take a lie down now...

Theism, atheism, and agnosticism are each positions based on a network of assumptions.  All 3 outlooks are plausible within their own presuppositional framework.  Typically, the atheist or agnostic restricts herself to a scientific materistic framework of asumptions.  Debate can be waged on whose assumptions are the most rational and explain all the data of reality in the most plausible manner. Since we believe our assumptions, atheism and agnosticism are by definition belief systems.

"On what grounds does the religious believer deny the existence of dragons?"

I suppose onn the grounds that he doesn't believe all the films and well-established eyewitness testimony about the Komodo Dragon of Indonesia. Sorry, I couldn't resist. :-)   For the theist, the God postulate is falsifiable in principle, and yet, unfalsified.  Santa Claus has sadly been falsified.  But try telling that to little kids of parents in a Christmas eve service!  The parents get incensed by such debunking!

"Rather, they would hold that an atheist is a person without a belief in God."

Supermodel, you seem to be fudging the distinction between "atheist" and "agnostic."  An agnostic lacks a belief in God.  She admits she doesn't know if there's a God.  But God is irrelevant to her life and value system. By the way, I too would like to hear how you justify an afterlife with no appeal to an Intelligent Designer of that system. 

Don

Don, the Buddhists have been doing it for a long time.  Buddhism is nontheistic, i.e. no God up there in the sky punishing, creating or whatever.  Yet Buddhist teachings include the afterlife and reincarnation, e.g. The Tibetan Book of the Dead.  And a recent accessible and profound text by a Buddhist teacher, Dzogchen Ponlop, Mind Beyond Death, explaining the six bardos, one being dying and two in the afterlife. 

Pat,

Yes, I know.  When I was a college professor I used to teach the various forms of Buddhism in my comparative religion course. It is a characteristic of all religions that they feature some sort of absolute, but you are correct that the God label seems rather meaningless for some religions.

Modern science postulates evolution through natural selection and random genetic mutation.  The most adaptive genetic mutations tend to be promoted in the next generation and ultimately in future species.  Since there are no genes in the afterlife, evolution there, must be fueled by different principles if postmortem evolution exists at all.  Potentially, those unique principles might force us to alter our understanding of biological evolution.  Frankly, I still believe a divine intelligence is essential to evolution in both the earthly and etheric realms.  But I'm interested in how Supermodel justifies her atheism with an afterlife belief.

Don
Don

I studied biology sufficiently enough to know that biological organisms are incredibly complex, therefore, something beyond natural selection must be involved.

In order for an organism to survive, numerous traits have to work in a cooperative manner. I don't see how random mutations could achieve what is needed. Many species (or even all species) would stop surviving before the requisite mutations take place. It is important to note that the majority of mutations have a negative effect.

Hi,

Did anyone actually read my short letter to an atheist, where I first stated the thread The atheist if you are interested is my younger brother Roger

Alan

I read it, Alan. It is a letter than makes great points about the nature of evolution and it would be mighty hard and take an immense amount of luck to achieve it all in a few billion years. Even with trial and error it would take quite along time to and an unprecedented amount of luck. Though it can't be shown it makes good sense that there is a guided evolution of the earth if not the whole physical universe. I don't know if that is collective consciousness or a deity... I lean toward the collective though and that our impressions of the that collective will be anything that gives us comfort from a subjective standpoint, so yes, it could appear to be a deity to those who want that and something organised a bit differently to those who aren't comfortable with Zeus or God or Allah.

Does that make me an atheist who believes in the afterlife?

Beau wrote on Nov 7^th, 2009 at 11:51am:

I read it, Alan. It is a letter than makes great points about the nature of evolution and it would be mighty hard and take an immense amount of luck to achieve it all in a few billion years. Even with trial and error it would take quite along time to and an unprecedented amount of luck. Though it can't be shown it makes good sense that there is a guided evolution of the earth if not the whole physical universe. I don't know if that is collective consciousness or a deity... I lean toward the collective though and that our impressions of the that collective will be anything that gives us comfort from a subjective standpoint, so yes, it could appear to be a deity to those who want that and something organised a bit differently to those who aren't comfortable with Zeus or God or Allah. Does that make me an atheist who believes in the afterlife?

Hi Beau,

I believe in Intelligent Design for the whole universe and that was my bases for initiating this thread

Alan

Deep sigh.......

I, for one, hate these discussions about atheism, agnosticism, god....and such.

It just seems like some people here seem to be such experts on everyone and everything....

This board hasn't been as interesting as it has been when I first joined....

Need a break.

As well as Contact, this is a Star Trek episode which I'd show an atheist, if I wanted to try and get them thinking.

Hi

Atheism and other beliefs could come from emotional causes, so the rationality of various arguments won't have much bearing. For example, maybe it's the sensitive souls who do not find enough love and compassion put into the world who can't believe there is a compassionate, loving Source.

Every time a soul distances itself from the Source by saying the Source isn't there, the further it moves from Source/God. In my opinion it can wait for God to hurl a bolt of lightning at it or it can start to invite God into its life by 'the imagination method,' dialoging respectfully with It as you would speak to a wise person.
I tried that method and it turned my downward-spinning life around .

Bets

supermodel wrote on Nov 7^th, 2009 at 8:08pm:

Deep sigh....... I, for one, hate these discussions about atheism, agnosticism, god....and such. It just seems like some people here seem to be such experts on everyone and everything.... This board hasn't been as interesting as it has been when I first joined.... Need a break.

What would you like to discuss? Start a new thread of your own, but heck God is important he/she is the reason we exist

Alan