Why did they write it? Oh, that's for someone else to answer.

Fear, it all about keeping you in fear and trapped within the physical. If your afraid then your easier to control. Its the old...give us what we want, or you going to hell, and hell is not where you want to be going. There is no physical pain in the astral so no need to be in fear of fire.

cutie wrote on Oct 31^st, 2009 at 2:16pm:

So it has nothing to do with God because the bible is God's word, correct? So there is no such place as Hell? Do we all then go to the same place when we die?

The Bible is not God's word to begin with. It is a book whose origins go back to Sumeria and Egypt... it has been revised and revised, changed and slanted for political and monetary profit as well as population control. Find your own truth within yourself... study and use common sense.

;)

It all depends what we do while here on earth.There are 7 levals of heaven,and 7 levals of hell,so the more good we do,the higher the leval we go in heaven.and the more evil we are we go to the lowest leval.as far as I know,if we are evil,we have a choise to reincarnate back her on earth.George

There is as much of God's word in "The Compleat Works of William Shakespeare" as there is in the Bible if one is looking for it. Most of us on this board believe you have to take your own journey and define things for yourself through your own subjective experiences. But there are also those who have their own systems that can offer you some ideas about what might actually be going on as opposed to hell for a "non-believer". But you will also find a few here who feel that Hell is very real alternative. We're kind of a mixed bag  ;)

I have asked God a few times if Hell is real, he never told me.

Perhaps you should read some books that hold a different interpretation than those parts of the Bible that speak of Hell and the Lake of Fire and then ask for guidance about what you are reading. Hell fire and Brimstone is a hard thing to let go of because it is such a well thought out punishment. Perhaps you will find that you reside in your mind and that you get what you think, meaning you draw to you what is on your mind. Perhaps you will find that fears manifest only when given too much attention. More than that I can't really say but there is lots to read about here. I"m sure you will find a direction that offers more comfort to you than where you have come from.

The comfort you are seeking does not come from someone telling you how it is or will be. The comfort comes from exploring the possibilities. I can only tell you what I find to make the most sense to me, but it will not make that sense to you unless you have read and experienced the same or similar things to me. There are some here who will give you an absolute impression of what to expect and there are advantages and disadvantages to it. The real advantage is that if you like what they say then perhaps it will inspire you to seek out your own answers, but the disadvantage is that what they say will color your perspective and then you will have a filter on what you perceive just as the Bible has given you a filter on your perceptions. Seek out the influences that come from a love basis. That will be personal to you no matter what someone may say. How we love is personal and so is our relationship with the ALL THAT IS, God, or however you like to put it. Break it down for yourself in a way that makes sense to you and if it is frightening to you it is fear based and not really advancing your cause. Release the fears and seek out whats in your heart free of that fear. Good luck and have fun.

My Grandmother died last year, she was not a beliver, I want to know that if she would be alright?

Did she worry about it? Did she think she was going to hell? Where she is has a lot more to do with who your grandmother was to herself than who she was to you. What does it mean that she was not a believer? Do you mean she did not believe in Jesus? Think about how religion is an instrument of control. Perhaps control is good, for some perhaps even necessary. If you love her then she must have been a good person or certainly trying to be so. At some level we are all doing the best we can at any given moment.

Probably not but I dont have a clue.
I dont think she belive in Jesus..

Believing in Jesus does not keep you from hell....or the hell you make in your mind.  More than anything, believing in these "fundamentalist" beliefs are the worst thing you can do for your soul if you ask me. It is so restricting. I understand your worry and fear, but that's what the fundamentalists hope you feel.

So do you think I'm doing the right thing then in thinking of leaving?

I don't think many here would tell you you should definitely leave your religion. That is a decision you have to come to on your own, but certainly you will find many points of view here that will help you make a decision. My girlfriend is very religious and I am not at all religious. We have agreed to disagree. I think of myself as on the only truly important journey I will take in this life or any other. There is a lot of information out there. Once you start looking around you'll find your way and every day it will be easier to discern where you are going on YOUR journey.

I think any religion that puts fear in your heart should be abandoned, period. That's my opinion.

Did'nt you just show me something I should look at?

yeah i moved it, it was

http://www.astralpulse.com/frankkepple.html

In your eyes what do you think or know is?

i don't understand your last question, please personal message me with the question restated.

I don't think God, Heaven, or hell exists. In fact I think when you are dead you will experience..... nothing... which in a strange way is an experience. HA!

So... ask yourself THIS question, which I personally find very interesting.....

Would you rather cease to exist? OR
Would you rather suffer in the pits of hell?

I would take hell over ceasing to exist. Maybe you can buddy up with Satan enough to get on his good side and help torture and get an air conditioned apartment or something...

Terethian,

When people post topics, they normally bring a set of assumptions that must be taken for granted to spur discussion.  Appropriately courteous responses either relate to the implications of those assumptions or offer reasons to challenge one or more of these assumptions.  Your reply just mindlessly dismisses the legitimacy of the poster's questions with no rationale.  I hate to break this to you--nobody cares about your unsubstantiated  opinions.   In future, at least offer reasons or experiences that inform your rejection of the posters' premise.

Don

lol Don I think you hurt his feelings.. he erased his account!

Kind of hard to say, actually. He seems to have deleted himself after posting on Juditha's 'suicide must be forgiven' thread. Could be, he's just taking his own advice there. :)

Given the limited imagery for Hell available in the first century, I think the biblical view of Hell is rather compatible with Bruce Moen's astral perspectives.
Here are 9 neglected points about the biblical imagery:

(1) Jesus' primary term for  Hell is "Gehenna," a reference to the ancient trash dump just outside Jerusalem.  Gehenna is an ancient symbol for wasted lives.  Ancient Jewish rabbis taught that Jews with mediocre spirituality might spend a year in Gehenna.  So it does not need to be construed as a place of eternal torment. 

(2) Jesus teaches that souls are attracted to Hell based on a principle akin to like attracts like: "For with the judgment you make you youself will be judged, and the measure you dish out will be dished out to you (Matthew 7:1-2)."  In an sense, Jesus seems to imply that Gehenna is a self-chosen condition--a teaching tool that asks the question: "What would a world be like if everyone's spiritual condition were just like yours and if your could not conceal your true thoughts from your neighbors (Luke 12:2)?"

(3) In Matthew 5:25-26 and 18:34-35, Jesus uses the image of a debtor's prison for Hell and implies the possibility of paying off the debt (= growing spiritually and reforming) and gaining release.

(4) In Luke 12:47-48, Jesus employs the poetic image of "few stripes" to refer to the trials of Hell.  "Few stripes" is a finite image that implies the possibility of ultimate release.  Jesus makes it clear that people are judged fairly on the basis of the limited spiritual light they have received. 

(5) In the Bible, the Hebrew word ("olam")often translated as "forever" just means "for a long time"
and the Greek word ("aionios") just means "age-long" or "for an indefinitely long period of time." Thus, Judaeo-Christian writings from the New Testament period can speak of what transpires after the "aionios" period ends!

The New Testament and early Christianity often imply the possibility of release from Hell and even soul retrievals. 

(6) The prophet John teaches that the gates of heaven {= "the new Jerusalem") are eternally open (Revelation 21:15) and shares his vision of a possible future in which every human who has ever lived in heaven, in hell and on earth worshiping God in heaven (5:13).  Paul share the same vision in Philippians 2:9-11).  I say "possible future" because God never forces anyone to worship Him.

(7) In the next 2 generations after the Book of Revelation, new Christian apocalypses make explicit what is only implied by John: that prayer and soul retrievals can rescue souls from Hell (Apocalypse of Peter 14; Sibylline Oracles 2).   

(8) Paul's churches practice proxy baptism for the unredeemed dead (1 Corinthians 15:28-29).  tHIS practice builds on the Jewish practice of offering sacrifices and praying for the evil dead (1 Maccabees).  Such practices are intended as a form of soul retrieval from Hell.

(9) Peter teaches that Jesus and the saints preach to the evil dead in their hellish prison (1Peter 3:19-21; 4:6).  Such preaching is pointless if these souls don't have an opportunity to respond and be retrieved.

Don

Terethian:

I understand your frustration. You want to be certain about whether or not the afterlife exists, and haven't obtained success, despite what you read about NDEs and other experiences. Until we have our own experiences it is hard to be certain.

Unfortunately, spiritual experiences aren't always easy to come by. In some cases it might be best that a person doesn't do something such as make contact with the World of spirit before he (or she) takes care of whatever issues he needs to take care of.

In a way it is good that life is set up in this way, because when we take care of our issues we improve our life in this World and prepare for aftewards.

So hang in there, and pray for help if you feel the need.

However.....I will say one more thing. When visitors to this site are treated as if they must live up to some kind of particular 'academic' standard here before writing an opinion, I think that's a little off-putting. There is no rule here that someone must take a scholarly approach to any subject on this forum. People contribute to discussions by virtue of their presence and their curiosity and their willingness to hear us. We don't own this board.

Oh, I forgot one more little thing. Terethian, I care about your 'unsubstantiated' opinions.

Really I do. Please stop hugging your cat and come back to this board, if you feel like it.

This is really quite interesting information. Thanks for putting this together.


Berserk2 wrote on Nov 4^th, 2009 at 5:37pm:

Given the limited imagery for Hell available in the first century, I think the biblical view of Hell is rather compatible with Bruce Moen's astral perspectives. Here are 9 neglected points about the biblical imagery: (1) Jesus' primary term for  Hell is "Gehenna," a reference to the ancient trash dump just outside Jerusalem.  Gehenna is an ancient symbol for wasted lives.  Ancient Jewish rabbis taught that Jews with mediocre spirituality might spend a year in Gehenna.  So it does not need to be construed as a place of eternal torment.  (2) Jesus teaches that souls are attracted to Hell based on a principle akin to like attracts like: "For with the judgment you make you youself will be judged, and the measure you dish out will be dished out to you (Matthew 7:1-2)."  In an sense, Jesus seems to imply that Gehenna is a self-chosen condition--a teaching tool that asks the question: "What would a world be like if everyone's spiritual condition were just like yours and if your could not conceal your true thoughts from your neighbors (Luke 12:2)?" (3) In Matthew 5:25-26 and 18:34-35, Jesus uses the image of a debtor's prison for Hell and implies the possibility of paying off the debt (= growing spiritually and reforming) and gaining release. (4) In Luke 12:47-48, Jesus employs the poetic image of "few stripes" to refer to the trials of Hell.  "Few stripes" is a finite image that implies the possibility of ultimate release.  Jesus makes it clear that people are judged fairly on the basis of the limited spiritual light they have received.  (5) In the Bible, the Hebrew word ("olam")often translated as "forever" just means "for a long time" and the Greek word ("aionios") just means "age-long" or "for an indefinitely long period of time." Thus, Judaeo-Christian writings from the New Testament period can speak of what transpires after the "aionios" period ends! The New Testament and early Christianity often imply the possibility of release from Hell and even soul retrievals.  (6) The prophet John teaches that the gates of heaven {= "the new Jerusalem") are eternally open (Revelation 21:15) and shares his vision of a possible future in which every human who has ever lived in heaven, in hell and on earth worshiping God in heaven (5:13).  Paul share the same vision in Philippians 2:9-11).  I say "possible future" because God never forces anyone to worship Him. (7) In the next 2 generations after the Book of Revelation, new Christian apocalypses make explicit what is only implied by John: that prayer and soul retrievals can rescue souls from Hell (Apocalypse of Peter 14; Sibylline Oracles 2).    (8) Paul's churches practice proxy baptism for the unredeemed dead (1 Corinthians 15:28-29).  tHIS practice builds on the Jewish practice of offering sacrifices and praying for the evil dead (1 Maccabees).  Such practices are intended as a form of soul retrieval from Hell. (9) Peter teaches that Jesus and the saints preach to the evil dead in their hellish prison (1Peter 3:19-21; 4:6).  Such preaching is pointless if these souls don't have an opportunity to respond and be retrieved. Don

I guess I would just add to what Don has already done and ask, what would happen if there was no punishment in the afterlife, or no afterlife at all?  That would mean for the most of humanity, life is a sick cruel joke, and victims everywhere have absolutely no justice.  I don't just mean someone who is raped or murdered, I mean every person who has ever been backstabbed, or hated unnecessarily, or wronged in any way (which is most if not all of humanity).  No punishment in the afterlife means evil and suffering in this mode of existence are simply meaningless evil and suffering with no point; that is unacceptable and life then becomes abhorrent, and ethics should be cast aside for the new ethic of might makes right and selfishness is more important than anything else.

Note I am not saying there needs to be an angry God that actively metes out justice; it could be much more automatic than that, more of a karmic or action / reaction set of spiritual laws of fairness set in place by God.  Additionally, why would God be angry in the first place?  Not because he is a jerk; its because he loves people so much and does not want to see them hurt.  Wouldn't you be angry to see someone you love deeply get hurt because of someone's selfishness?  Many New Ager types think that God is a God of love and simply wouldn't judge someone.  To that line of thought, consider; does God love victims, or just you?  Are you the only person in this universe that God loves?  Yes, even you have done things that have gravely hurt others.  I'm personally convinced that many New Agers reject the gospel because they cannot admit to themselves that they have done evil that they need forgiveness for, or realize they cannot set right what they have done wrong, and so invent the convenient answer that their sins are not important, or they will not be called into account for what they have done.  This makes a mockery of true suffering, forgiveness, grace, and eventual spiritual growth for the victim and the victimizer.

Lastly, assuming that there is no hell contradicts Jesus; not necessarily church people simply trying to control others.  While I don't dispute that a lot of evil has been done in the name of Christianity including exercising undue control over others, that doesn't mean all religious motivation is as such.  By the way, a great book that addresses this is Dinesh D'Souza's "Whats So Great About Christianity".  Christianity as a movement has been responsible for a lot of good as well as a lot of evil throughout history.  Lastly, people who do evil in the name of Christianity (like by controlling others) are representing a false form of Christianity and do not represent the ethics of Jesus, even if they claim to.

Pratekya:

First of all, I don't believe all New Age people reject the gospel completely. It is more of a matter of their wondering if the gospels accurately reflect what Jesus said.

It is also a matter of many people presenting the gospel in a manner that is too fear and guilt based. I don't believe Jesus was a fearmonger, even though he did warn people at times.

One of the reasons people like to read things outside of the gospels is because the gospels don't provide a lot of information of what the afterlife is like. Parables are given, but these are cryptic.

I like to read NDEs because they provide descriptions of what the afterlife is like. These descriptions can be very inspirational.

When it comes right down to it each of us has to listen to our common sense, heart and conscience, because even when it comes to people who believe in the gospels, people interpret them in different ways.

There are many Christians who don't support gay marriage. It is hard for me to believe that these people listened to their common sense, heart and conscience when they considered whether homosexuality is a sin. Rather, fear prevented them from questioning what a few verses in the Bible say.

Certainly it is understandible why many people including New Agers get turned off by how some Christians view homosexuality. Perhaps if Christians don't want to lose followers, they should remember how Jesus said to love your neighbor as yourself and not be judgmental, and consider the possibility that the "men" who decided to add homophobic verses to the Bible might've been wrong. Of course, if a person is restrainded by fear, how will he or she ever question whether homosexuality is a sin. Perhaps people who listen to their common sense, heart and conscious decided to love homosexuals rather than judge them.

Also, perhaps the love in their hearts cause them to believe it isn't right to send souls to hell for all of eternity. I know that somebody such as Don will say that the Bible doesn't support this premise, BUT, many Christians say it does. Therefore, people get turned off. It as if Christians shoot themselves in their own foots when they try to fear people into believing as they do.

I believe a lot of new agers are wonderful people with good intentions. They accept fraudulent sources of information "not" because they are dumb or don't have good intentions, but because their hunger for information and trusting nature makes it so they sometimes accept too easily.

I really doubt that Jesus views new age people as if they are contemptible. He sees their light and knows their hearts.

This World is going to have a hard time coming together as long as Christians and New Agers are oppossed to each other.  For the most part, each group of people want what's best, it is just that their paths don't completely agree with each other.

I believe we can be discerning without being afraid.

If we understand that moving heavenward is a glorious and wonderful thing, we don't need fear to keep us in line. If anything, fear will prevent us from discriminating things in an accurate manner.

A very nice post, Albert. Very perceptive and insightful.

Quote:

First of all, I don't believe all New Age people reject the gospel completely. It is more of a matter of their wondering if the gospels accurately reflect what Jesus said. It is also a matter of many people presenting the gospel in a manner that is too fear and guilt based. I don't believe Jesus was a fearmonger, even though he did warn people at times. One of the reasons people like to read things outside of the gospels is because the gospels don't provide a lot of information of what the afterlife is like. Parables are given, but these are cryptic. I like to read NDEs because they provide descriptions of what the afterlife is like. These descriptions can be very inspirational.

I agree and feel very similar to most of what you are saying here.  Specifically by paragraph -  I don't know a lot of new age people, I get my admittedly limited view from what I read on this site mostly.  Second paragraph - I agree, fear and guilt will only take people so far in terms of motivation.  What I like to remember is that people who felt like rejects from standard religious types loved to hang out with Jesus - there was something very attractive about him.  However I would caution that sometimes the most loving thing we can do to people is to warn them of the danger of where their actions are leading.  3rd and 4th - I agree, and also read NDEs.

As for the gay marriage thing, I assume you are using this as an example of how Christians disagree on controversial topics and also can be seen as judgmental to outsiders.  I am sympathetic to your arguments in support of it, but at the end of the day I don't believe gay issues are at the core of Christianity.  Sadly, the people who make condemnation of gay lifestyles the core of their version of Christianity are preachers of judgment, and so it is a fair point that you are making.  However, I don't think that we can take that point and say therefore Christians should not speak out against other perceived evils in the world, or talk about things that could be fear inducing such as hell.  Jesus talked about hell quite a bit.  If your friend was driving towards a cliff, and he didn't realize a cliff was there, shouldn't you shout something at him even if it would make him feel uncomfortable?  The more loving thing to do is to make him feel uncomfortable and make him reconsider the direction he is traveling in.


Quote:

When it comes right down to it each of us has to listen to our common sense, heart and conscience, because even when it comes to people who believe in the gospels, people interpret them in different ways.

Here is where we differ I believe.  Like I suggested before, to go from a controversial topic with genuine debate among the Christian community to the conclusion that anything can be rethought is where I disagree.  Basically by saying 'since some Christians condemn homosexuality, which seems to me not to be a sin, therefore we can interpret everything in Christianity how we want and the existence of hell just becomes an interpretation I don't want to include in my outlook'.  I would argue that just because there is common dissent on controversial issues doesn't mean Christianity is open to radical reinterpretation on core issues.  Or I guess it can be so, but its no longer Christianity.


Quote:

I really doubt that Jesus views new age people as if they are contemptible. He sees their light and knows their hearts.

I agree, and this statement along with a couple others seems a bit like a straw man argument... I don't advocate that Jesus views New Agers with contempt, just as I don't think all New Agers reject the gospel entirely, although you seem to be attributing these things to my thinking.


Quote:

If we understand that moving heavenward is a glorious and wonderful thing, we don't need fear to keep us in line. If anything, fear will prevent us from discriminating things in an accurate manner.

I'm not advocating fear to keep people in line.  But on the same token, just because the idea of hell is fearful doesn't mean we can or should try to wish it away.  It exists or doesn't exist, whether we like it or not.  Just like a cliff exists for your friend or it doesn't, whether we like it or not.  The choice is how to react to this, and sometimes the most loving thing to do is to remind someone who is causing major problems that they will be made to be responsible for their actions in the afterlife.

Thank you Beau.



Beau wrote on Nov 5^th, 2009 at 4:55pm:

A very nice post, Albert. Very perceptive and insightful.