Hi

I don't know where this will go but I got into it from Neil's post on good and evil --  Is everything wrong evil,
        or is evil a special extreme category?
For example, it's easy enough to make wrong choices that one knows are wrong; but would we make such choices if we thought they were evil?

Bets
And
Is there any truth to the wordplay of the reverse of evil being live?

I guess that's the thing. If there is a choice that must be made then the epitome of either is of course rather extreme...for me anyway. Either direction toward the end of itself leads to ...what? Perhaps its more circular than linear. I don't have an answer but at the moment I think identifying or judging good and bad outside yourself will get you back here quicker than anything else. Hey, Lucifer is the lightbearer that's what the name means. Hello? Food for thought is all. Evil/Live? Well, if they are reflections of each other then they are equal, but if they are equal are they really opposite? and I mean in the biggest of pictures. I don't know that falling into the dark abyss is any worse than striving for the light. I don't know anything so I don't 'no' anything--but I try to keep a balanced outlook. I hope this is on topic, Bets.

Betson

There is definitely a difference between "wrong" and evil.  I put wrong in quotes because the meaning of this term is not really set in stone- it varies from individual to individual.  A wrong action to one may be the right action to another.  I believe it depends on the intentions behind the action.  It is possible to do something "wrong" for the right reasons. 

Recently, in Richmond California, 10 guys beat and gang raped a high school girl who was leaving her homecoming dance for over two hours, while 10 other people stood by and watched. No matter how you slice it, what took place was wrong and had nothing to do with a divine plan.

Regarding Lucifer, the Book of Isaiah initially spoke of a fallen king of Babylonia, a physical person. About a thousand years later Pope Damascus commisioned a man name Jerome to work on some Biblical translations and Jerome erroneously translated the word Lucifer so that a physical person became known as a fallen angel.

Or in other words, there isn't a fallen angel that goes by the name Lucifer.

hi bet my x husband was evil ,i think he was incapable of giving love to anyone,i think he felt love but just could not give it out,i tried and tried to give him love because he had a bad childhood,where his mother was putting it about with anyone she  fancied.

even chained my x husband to a fence outside while she was with yet another man and he was only 9 yrs old when she did this,he was shown no love whatsoever when he was growing up and i payed for this in a big way.

he had so many affairs could never understand why i could not hack it and we finally split,because of that evil unfeeling woman that brought him up.

so i beleive that part in the bible what says evil begets evil and that is so true as i lived through just that off him and now we are divorced

love and god bless  love juditha

People take actions. Actions have results. Applying labels such as 'good' and 'evil' is simply a way of categorizing our likes and dislikes for particular results.

Obviously, if the results are not what is 'needed', a different course of action is recommended. Otherwise, I have no use for 'good' and 'bad'. Good and evil, as you like.

What do likes and dislikes have to do with it? Consider the rape case I mentioned. Whether or not such an event is negative, wrong, evil, has nothing whatsover to do with our likes and dislikes. If a person is treated horribly, then something horrible, negative, wrong, evil, did take place.

I don't believe we become sophisticated when we get into this there is no good and evil business. If another being can be disrespected, harmed and caused to suffer, then there "is" such a thing as "wrong" activity.

I can understand why new age people don't want to be accused of being gullible, but for goodness sake, if they don't want to be accused in such a way, then perhaps they should stop acting accordingly.

Is this what the spiritual evolution of this planet needs?  A bunch of people who could've helped this World but were taken in by their gullibility.

Just because new age source A says there is no good and evil, this doesn't mean that such a dichotomy doesn't exist. I'm not saying half of this universe is light and the other half is dark, but certainly negativity rears its ugly head in many ways.

I agree that a day will come when everything works out wonderfully, but perhaps we shouldn't make the mistake of counting our chickens before they hatch, because our aloofness will make it so they never hatch.



wrote on Oct 29^th, 2009 at 2:53pm:

People take actions. Actions have results. Applying labels such as 'good' and 'evil' is simply a way of categorizing our likes and dislikes for particular results. Obviously, if the results are not what is 'needed', a different course of action is recommended. Otherwise, I have no use for 'good' and 'bad'. Good and evil, as you like.

I'm not interested in debating about a rape case with you. I'm not interested in debating you.

B2:

Certainly it is possible for people to discuss something without it being considered a debate.

If you don't want to read my words, that's fine, but if you don't want people to comment about your thoughts, perhaps you shouldn't share them on a public forum. To me it makes no sense at all to share our thoughts on a public forum, and them expect that nobody will disagree with them.

If fact, you pretty much did the same thing when you responded to the previous posts on this thread.

Thank you all,

especially to Beau and OOBD who both examined the more philosophical aspects that I was most wondering about, and to Juditha, Recoverer, and b2 for discussing specific examples.

Also to help clarify, I went to the dictionary regarding evil. It said that evil is "of an exceedingly immoral or malevolent intent." That puts evil at quite a distance from wrong, as OOBD said.

We have so much in common here at this forum. I didn't mean to bring up ideas that would separate us in any way.

Thanks, Bets

In the case of this rape incident..are all the perpetrators "evil"? Or was the act its self what was evil? Will they be going to rape hell? If she thinks poorly of the attackers and wishes them dead, will she end up in hell? What of those girls who stood by knowing what was going on? And finally, is it evil to be "afraid" to step in and not help when you have a dozen mid to large young men violently attacking someone? Is that fear, evil? We all reach out to this young lady. Personally I think a proper deterrent might work. Give the girls Dad a dull knife and strip down the boys so he can remove any offending parts. That might make the next perp think twice about joining in on such a despicable act. (I hope I don't end up in Judge Judy Hell) 

The New Testament implies that Jesus made some "wrong" choices as part of His maturation process, but distinguishes "wrong choices from "sin."  We all learn by the trial-and-error of wrong choices.  But many people make choices that are not part of the learning curve; they are motivated by the desire to control and to derive pleasure from the suffering and misfortune of others.  If we don't use the graphic term "evil" to label Nazi genocide or a discarnate's desire to kill small children from the astral planes, just what word would be more appropriate to alert us to this danger?  Language is a tool to help us survive and thrive and the best words are those that do the job we need them to do.  Some people label as "evil" morally flawed neigbors and family members who cause others no deliberate harm.  Such neighbors and family members might be labelled misguided, selfish, or even "bad," depending on their negative behavior patterns, but they should not be labelled evil.  This word must not be watered down so that it loses its power to warn and advise.

Don   

Oh come on Don, why do you have a problem with mincing words? Perhaps instead of saying something such as Jane Roberts Seth is a fraud, I could say, Jane Roberts Seth could be more genuine. :)

Albert,

Jane Roberts was sadly self-deluded, but she is brutally honest about doubting her gift and the legitimacy of her revelations.  So she hardly seems to be a fraud.  There is an important moral distinction between words like "fraud" and "self-delusion" just as there is between "evil" and "morally flawed."

Don

"Wrong" or "evil" (as well as the opposite, positive attributes) are, concerning the own person's deeds, always hindsight attributes. If one is really convinced that something is wrong or evil, this one won't do it. We all do always what we think is right- it's a circular definition of course. We simply cannot do what we think is wrong, or evil, as that would simply mean we won't do it. The use of phrases like "I'm doing something real evil now" is just a degradation, or a double-play of language. There is a difference of what someone thinks by him/herself to be evil/wrong and what someone thinks the society may label something as evil/wrong. If someone really thinks "what I am going to do is evil" then he/she just won't do it.

Spooky

Definitions of words within this reality (which is a dream) don't map to concepts out there in the real world (the spirit world).

However, I would re-define evil in our earth terms, as exclusively and only:

Entrapping,enslaving or causing termination of consciousness, of a spiritual being, through direct action or inaction.

This is done in the universes above this one, and as far as I know we do not know how to trap spiritual beings on earth.

Killing a body can hardly been seen as evil since it happens every day on this planet. They guy probably goes and gets another body and is better off. The point is he is trapped here and that is the evil part, IMO.

Quote:

However, I would re-define evil in our earth terms, as exclusively and only: Entrapping,enslaving or causing termination of consciousness, of a spiritual being, through direct action or inaction. Killing a body can hardly been seen as evil since it happens every day on this planet.

Are you saying that the lack of ability to keep a hostage for all eternity is a reason to justify a human being's actions? And that evil ceases to be evil if it happens every day?

By the way, beaurocrats will destroy lives because "the paperwork wasn't filled out right". How's that for evil? But to be honest, I don't believe in evil - here on earth anyway. Most people just do not understand, they do not have enough empathy or their own suffering is too overwhelming for them to cope with it. In my eyes evil would be someone who enjoys seeing other people in pain (not because of revenge or brain damage).

nastarowje,
Vagabound

Quote:

Consider the rape case I mentioned. Whether or not such an event is negative, wrong, evil, has nothing whatsover to do with our likes and dislikes. If a person is treated horribly, then something horrible, negative, wrong, evil, did take place.

Well, the trouble with young men is; there's testosterone shooting out of their ears cuz it can't squeeze in with the rest of them. In some regions the punishment and social rejection for offences like that is too low for those kids to try and keep themselves under control. Unfortunately, among teenage kids, it's considered cool to have sex, it's not considered a loving act between two mature adults.
We do need a more appropriate punishment for that but I wouldn't call those kids evil, just human and fairly weak when it comes to fighting their impulses. The abuse is horrible, yes, negative and wrong, but not evil.

nastarowje,
Vagabound

I place myself in the 'Evil is Relative' camp which I sense a couple of posters on here lean towards. Here's why :

Using Recoverer's mass rape example as an act of evil I can think of examples in history where gang rape has been used as an instrument of punishment and revenge e.g. The Soviet march through Germany at the end of the Second World War.We would classify this as an evil act from our perspective. I think perspective is an important concept to bring into the debate. From the perspective of the Soviets after 4 bitter years of warfare the fascists deserved all they got. From Hitler's perspective he really did believe he was serving the German nation by removing 'Jewish' scum. Islamic extremists really believe that the US is the 'great Satan' and killing Americans is holy work. The point I am making is echoing Spooky 'If one is really convinced that something is wrong or evil, this one won't do it' basically 'evil' people don't think that they're evil.

Does this mean that we have to approve of genocide , mass rape or whatever as 'its all relative'. An emphatic no. We don't accept these things because they simply don't agree with how we define who we really are. For example we normally define ourselves as compassionate souls who don't want people to suffer pain.

I agree with Walsch  (sorry anti-New Agers  ;) ) that we define who we think we are by our actions. In the past we would easily have put people to death for trifling issues (from today's perspective) because that was the reality of who we thought we were. We've changed our mind since then and we will continue to do that. I've no doubt that future generations will shake their head at today's barbarisms ( 'you mean they really let people starve to death !' ).

The problem I have with 'Good' and 'Evil' as a concept is that it perpetuates separateness. There are the 'Good' guys usually us and the 'Evil' ones usually them. Remember the 9/11 bombers thought they were the good guys. The illusion of separateness (i.e us and them) leads to warfare, starvation etc. in short - human misery.

Some would say this is just wishy-washy 'new age speak' - 'hey nothing's evil man'. I don't agree, I don't think its an easy option at all it means that if we don't like a behaviour the responsilibity is in ours  to do something about it. In short start the healing process by building bridges instead of barriers. In a practical sense this may mean dialoging with our 'enemies' rather than trying to destroy them, as one example.

Dave

heisenberg69:

If you mean me, I'm not anti-new age. It is just that I don't feel good about the many sources that try to deceive new age people.

In a way it is good that you stick up for CWG, regarless of what it's about, because it shows you are loyal to what you believe to be valid.

I agree with Walsch  (sorry anti-New Agers   ) that we define who we think we are by our actions. In the past we would easily have put people to death for trifling issues (from today's perspective) because that was the reality of who we thought we were. We've changed our mind since then and we will continue to do that. I've no doubt that future generations will shake their head at today's barbarisms ( 'you mean they really let people starve to death !' ).

Hi Recoverer:

I was'nt referring to any individual in particular - I
never get personal its not my style. I certainly would'nt describe myself as a devotee of Walsch  or a new ager at all its just when I feel something is intuitively valuable or helpful to me I give credit for it. What I particularly guard against is 'blunderbuss' i.e carte blanche/unspecific dismissals of material.

I realise we have to be discriminatory in our approach ( if we believe everything we believe nothing ) but I am also discriminatory with skeptics and 'debunkers' because they also often have agendas and prejudices (often unacknowledged) which I may not share.

Dave

Hi Bets, members,

Been a few months...hope everyone is well.
Just wanted to offer this to the discussion...

The Origin and Remedy of Falsehood, Error, Wrong and Evil
Chapter XIV, "The Life Divine", Sri Aurobindo


               http://xrl.us/bfz9bc


It is 36 pages* but worth it if you want a deep, thorough, definitive treatment - the best essay I have ever found anywhere on the subject. (the rest of the book ain't bad either)
note: after linking, you may have to re-size smaller to 75% if your browser allows this


Best to all,

- u

---

* "ultra" abbreviated version: evil = perversion of ignorance

I am the first creation I am the light being sent to banish the dark and its evil lord. It is not compatibly with life it is death and I am life.  I am the compassionate one, it is hate. We are not different we are opposites of the same reality that makes up and consists of all existence

It is the lord of utter darkness and I am the Lord of Light and Life. I am the Giver of life it is the Taker of Life

The battle continues forever, for eternities the dark smothers the light and for eternities the light dispels the dark. Take heart the battle is only in the grey domain the twilight zone between light and dark love and hate, life and death

I the story teller am the Light Being raging against the dark to bring you into the eternal light of love where I dwell always in beautiful composite light

Your Universe is the twilight zone the grey between heaven and hell the domain of the Dark Lord and the domain of the Light Lord .

ultra wrote on Nov 2^nd, 2009 at 2:18am:

Hi Bets, members, Been a few months...hope everyone is well. Just wanted to offer this to the discussion... The Origin and Remedy of Falsehood, Error, Wrong and Evil Chapter XIV, "The Life Divine", Sri Aurobindo                http://xrl.us/bfz9bc It is 36 pages* but worth it if you want a deep, thorough, definitive treatment - the best essay I have ever found anywhere on the subject. (the rest of the book ain't bad either) note: after linking, you may have to re-size smaller to 75% if your browser allows this Best to all, - u * "ultra" abbreviated version: evil = perversion of ignorance

Apologies for any inconvenience...

Evidently the above link does not work.
Unfortunately, links to their ashram which provides the entire library of writings frequently do not work as has been my experience.

If you have interest in accessing the cited essay,
I suggest the alternative of going to google books and
entering the following phrase in the site search field:

aurobindo origin remedy falsehood

This will retrieve the specified chapter.


best regards,
- u

Greetings ultra!

Good to hear from you again!

Until we get that work read, can we hear more from you about evil as 'the perversion of ignorance'?
For example I can recall thinking of doing something wrong and telling myself that I don't really know, am ignorant of, how wrong it might be in the big scheme of things, so I'd go ahead and do it, then wait to be smited down. Was I perverting my ignorance?

Bets

Well it is an interesting chapter but a lot of the pages are missing on Google. >:(

betson wrote on Nov 2^nd, 2009 at 12:25pm:

Greetings ultra! Good to hear from you again! Until we get that work read, can we hear more from you about evil as 'the perversion of ignorance'? For example I can recall thinking of doing something wrong and telling myself that I don't really know, am ignorant of, how wrong it might be in the big scheme of things, so I'd go ahead and do it, then wait to be smited down. Was I perverting my ignorance? Bets

Hi Bets,
Thanks for the hearty hi ho!

Briefly, the idea is that the physical universe in which we find ourselves is an involution of divinity into matter - which is simply another aspect of and an instrumentality of the very same divinity except in a dynamic evolving form (vs static and unmanifest).

Here we are necessarily ignorant of divine essense/origin (Being) as an intrinsic condition, ie nescience in some degree - it is part of the "game". The purpose is an evolution (becoming) where greater more comprehensive consciousness is "acquired", more accurately realized (since it is already within) through an evolutionary process called life, in which infinite possibilities of that evolutionary realization process can be worked out on an individual basis.

What happens with evil is that relative to any individual achievement of greater, higher, more inclusive, more subjective etc. consciousness while on the physical plane, a deliberate individual choice can be made to preserve or promote the continuation of the ignorance, vs transcending it as a continuation of the normal process - a deliberate perversion of the evolutionary process which uses a limited transitory knowledge for the very purpose of thwarting in some way this evolution in oneself, another, or group, perhaps even the world.

So for instance, if a six year old is ignorant of certain physical laws and starts a fire in which someone is hurt, this is not necessarily evil even if unfortunate. However if a "normal" educated 36 year old who knows these laws uses that very knowledge to start a fire deliberately knowing and/or intending the consequences of some damage, destruction, etc., and someone is hurt - this could be evil.

This is an admittedly superficial explanation, much better explained in the article.
Imo, the reading and understanding of this one single article could be responsible for reducing bandwidth demand for 50% of all internet discussion oriented traffic! (lol) Of course, that would also be a superficial manifestation.
-----
To answer your specific question, if I am able to at all, my feeling is that if you are questioning motive with an intention to expand consciousness then this is part of the evolutionary process and not a perversion of it. You may still make a mistake, but mistakes in this context are obviously not "evil" and simply an artifact of process through a limited knowing - which is evolving. This is why designations like "sin" are problematic and fraught with debilitating connotations, ie: mistakes are evil - which ironically perhaps is promoting of a kind of evil in itself because it facilitates "stuckness".

best regards to you,
- u

Hello Beau,

Sorry for all this trouble.

It seems the site navigation for their "E-Library" may be faulty, at least it is through my browser. What may work better is to retrieve material through a "custom search" (upper left, site home page) by key words. I did this (see below) knowing the chapter title and was able to get a url for the table of contents here, then scoll down for chapter (it is pretty far down).

http://xrl.us/bf2fv6

Hope this helps, but if the above link does not work you may have to do the following, however you will gain access to much good material though access to the entire library.
,
1) go to the Sri Aurobindo Ashram site here:

http://sriaurobindoashram.info

2) using left side navigation bar choose
E-Library, then
Works of Sri Aurobindo, then
English, then
Book title - in this case, "The Life Divine" Vol 18, then
Book 2, Part I, Chapter XIV "The Origin and Remedy of Falsehood Error Wrong and Evil"

-----------
If that fails, do site custom search - upper left on home page - for "remedy falsehood error evil" - This will get the book and table of contents - 

scroll down and look for Book 2, Part I, Chapter XIV
or click on "view matches..." to see the chapter.
----------------
Another good resource to try with downloadable pdf's for many books is  this:
http://www.sriaurobindoashram.org/ashram/sriauro/writings.php
-----------------
Hope this helps AND works!
Again sorry for any inconvenience or frustration.

best regards,

- u

Hi ultra,

I will check out the new links as soon as I have expended all my energy and stamina in my facebook Mafia wars game...I'm afraid I am rather addicted. Thank you.