We have some bugs in the house for some unknown reason... I am going through cleaning like mad. We have flies like crazy!

If a fly has a soul or consciousness who am I to end it's life simply because it causes me irritation?

For instance, I am alive. I am a biological living being. A maggot is a biological, living being.

Why should I think the two of us are that much less deserving of an afterlife? A reason for existence. A greater purpose, meaning.

Hi

Some source I respected  at the time (duhh-I can't recall what/who it was though) said that insects are more like robots than spirits, and that they have no afterlife. Reverence for life, ala St Francis of Asissi or Albert Einstein, is my goal, but I exclude the bugs.

I can sense the spirit of trees and feel I can communicate with larger animals (larger than insects), but I still swat at the six-legged creatures.

Do I dare suggest that you do what feels right ?  :)

Bets

I believe it is wrong to kill all biological creatures, besides plants, which are obviously here for our consumption.  I found myself killing bugs out of fear, a fear caused by false beliefs.  I am still working on these beliefs which cause my fear of bugs, but I restrain from killing them as much as possible.  Why should I cause them pain and end their existence on this plane just because they entered "my house?"  The idea of owning "property" is false to begin with-  this is our world to share.  Of course, it is nearly impossible to live according to certain fundamental truths such as this in todays society.  But the basic premise of the idea remains that it is fundamentally wrong to end life, regardless of how big or small the creature is and what we think we know of its present state of consciousness.

OK, you guys, stay away from Dude's house - bedbugs, mice, termites, you get the picture.  (kidding).

First off, can I add here that reverence for life is important, but when one looks at nature, really looks, what do you see?  Everything is eating everything else.  I live in the woods.  Bugs constantly eating other bugs.  Frogs eating bugs, snakes eating frogs.  Is this evil?  Of course not.  It is what it is.  Life in the physical world often comes in cycles. 

Why live in a house?  For shelter?  And what if an unwanted animal gets in?  Share the house?  What if it carried disease, or dies naturally in your walls and stinks?  You didn't ask it in.  You tried to have a dwelling that would not be inviting but it got in anyway.  To keep it in your house would not be good for the animal; it is not their natural habitat.  It would not be good for your health and physical well being.

What about killing a person?  You and your loved one are attacked viciously while walking in a park.  You have the chance to defend your loved one, but in the process you must kill the attacker.  Do you worry about incurring bad karma?  Let your loved one be bludgeoned (etc.)?  If not, why not? 

The key aspect of killing is intent.  Is your intent to keep a clean house, and the killing a tragic but necessary part of it?  If so, it is far different to your consciousness and your afterlife experience then if you maliciously seek out animals to destroy for the fun of it.  Intent - this is what matters most.  Is your intent to kill the attacker mentioned in the park, or to defend your loved one (and the killing a tragic byproduct of your defense).

It is foolish to think that we should live in the physical and not protect ourselves from that which would hurt us.  The flu virus kills thousands of Americans each year.  There is a pill called Tamilfu which, if taken early will eradicate the virus.  Is it "wrong" to take Tamiflu then, killing this virus?  Of course not. 

Death is not the end of things - nothing truly dies.  For me, the effect on you and your soul simply comes from intent.  Should you live with a fly infestation in your home?  Will it create negative karma for which you must atone?  Heck no to both questions. 

Matthew

This is a really good thread. I've killed many bugs in my day but only recently I've examined the reason why.

Where does this fear come from? Why do I have this need to kill it just because it entered my house?

Why do I fear something that doesn't appear to be a threat to me? (despite the disease factor)

I've found myself freeing trapped flies and what not. 

I think I'm starting to lose it...

   I also like to save insect creatures instead of killing them. If I discover something like a large spider or centipede, I just put a cup over it and slide a piece of paper or cardboard between the creature and the cup. Then it's out the door time. I would only end the life of something if absolutely necessary.

Ralph

Haven't killed any bugs/flies lately. I can make an effort to get them out if I'm bothered. Most of the flies that come in, don't come out, probably because the place I'm living in is evil? ? My fault coz I didn't get them out? Can't be their fault. What I will not stand for is to be pushed around by them. There was one house where I escorted out a lot of spiders, 'till it became so many my escort business (eek) became more like a will thud you stiff situation. There will probably be some who feels this must be punished - well then, bite me. Karma doesn't exist, demonstrated daily, so you've got to do the work if inclined.

Hi there,

I live on a farm, and keep horses. This attracts many flies and other vermin, and at times we become overwhelmed by flies within the house. 

On just one fly, they can carry up to 6 million bacteria on their feet, and can contain many diseases and parasites, some of which can be pretty nasty if the bacterium is allowed to grow on food and work surfaces.

Although it is down to ones believes, and choice, I personally would not allow these pests to hang out within my property, and I will use any means necessary to do away with them.

Best wishes
Paul

For an insect in my home I prefer to use the cup and paper method Ralph mentioned, since it does not harm them, and they can have another chance outdoors. If it's flying around I open the door for it, and it generally leaves. However, I am also, lately, examining my initial feelings of repulsion because I am interested in that. If the bug is particularly lovely, with enjoyable colors and an attractive shape, or if I have positive identifications with it, such as a ladybug, which is considered to be cute, I often have different feelings about it. I think that is worth noticing. What a bug feels, I don't know, but it seeks what brings it pleasure or comfort, just as I do.

I don't use any pesticides in my apartment unit. I don't allow them. But once there came a large amount of fleas from outdoors, and I did use a fogger for that. Otherwise, they just don't come in and accumulate that way.

Some people in the world eat bugs. I've heard they are even in cereal sometimes. By accident, you know, during processing of the grains, etc. There are quite a lot of bugs in this world.

It does seem that my earlier post seems harsh, but im refering to flies only.

I counted over 200 flies on one fly paper in my kitchen, so it would be difficult for me to catch these in a cup, and card.

When it comes to other insects, spiders, bees (which are very important) these are caught and placed outside. If I had to do this for flies, then I would have to make a career out of it..

Regards
Paul

^^ Absolutely bees are very important. Although I can't stand them, they are important to our food supply.

We have a major moth infestation every summer and I use these traps that give off a scent to the males and they stick to the strip and suffer for hours..maybe days. I'm thinking a quick splat is less cruel...Moths are pretty gross with all the dust they collect on their wings but I've have batted around better ways to rid them, but so far the traps work best but I try to put them out of their misery as quickly as possible.

wrote on Oct 11^th, 2009 at 7:32pm:

We have some bugs in the house for some unknown reason... I am going through cleaning like mad. We have flies like crazy! If a fly has a soul or consciousness who am I to end it's life simply because it causes me irritation?

That is a silly question the bible does not say in the ten commandment that you should not kill It says you must not murder a fellow human.

But I think you have a point with the higher evolved animals such as the ape or dolphin family, I would never kill one of these beautiful creatures.

And I love my doggy he is my best friend and I see a fellow soul in the widow of his eyes

Alan

Well, many Buddhists believe one should not kill any sentient being, which includes ants, flies, mosquitos, etc. However, I know many Buddhists who eat meat, which they may not have killed themselves, but still....  I'm not quite into the "every sentient being was once your mother" as some Buddhists are, but I do try not to kill even insects without a good reason.  I think Matthew expresses my sense of it quite well.

Of course its OK to kill them. Splat! 

Doc

Its true, certain animals eat certain other animals- for survival.  Not because one got in their way or inconvenienced them.. that is generally the case anyway.  I'm aware that certain animals are territorial, but if that is their true nature, or generated by fear, I don't know. 

I agree that it's important to keep a clean and safe house- but if it is not neccessary to end the intruder's life, then it should not be done.  Simply removing the insect, like Ralph suggested, is a perfect way to rid yourself of the problem without being a terminator of life.

Killing someone in self defence is a tricky subject.  On the one hand, it is instinctive to protect yourself and your loved ones.  On the other hand, I don't agree with taking a human life, regardless of the circumstances.  Ideally one would be able to incompacitate the offender without doing serious harm.  An eye for an eye is a false concept in my book.

"An Eye for An Eye" is referencing money lending not revenge.

In the great words of Paul McCartney  "Hey Dude, don't make it bad.  Take a sad song and make it better."  Oh wait a minute, that was 'Hey Jude.'  My mistake.

As I said before, I agree and believe that I revere all life in general, but you can't always avoid taking life.  You certainly can have it be your intent not to kill.  Several real life examples come to mind.  Years ago, our house had a mouse problem.  Rather than kill the mice (which I was loathe to do), I bought "humane traps" where the mouse could breathe, and you could release them out into the wild.  I caught about a dozen mice that way over weeks.  But the best laid plans of mice and men.......well you get the idea.  What happened next was gruesome.  Many times the humane trap would be untouched for days or weeks.  And they were checked regularly.  Except once in a while, a mouse would wander into one and be terrified and die trying to escape.  Others would get caught if a trap fell by the mouse pushing it, and die a slow, agonizing death.  The bottom line - while I released more than a dozen that way, I felt the times the mice did die in there was more gruesome than any spring mouse trap made.  In situations like that infestation, you can't "just live with the mice," for they leave droppings in your pantry, carry disease and die in the walls, in hard to get to places.  My intent was not to kill, but there were few alternatives.  Living with the mice, and the consequences was not an option.  I didn't invite them in to begin with.

With regard to the attacker assaulting you and your family - I train in jiu jitsu, and there are techniques we train in to immobilize an attacker without killing.  Only advanced, extremely skilled individuals have that much control in random situations.  But.....
In the passion and moment of an unexpected attack, sometimes an attacker won't give up or cease as long as they have breath/fight in them.  If you are then saying that you would let you and/or your loved one (wife, mother, etc.) die, you are missing a bigger picture here.

Being a pacifist, and revering life does not mean that in the physical world, we should never defend ourselves.  We can cherish love - the driving force behind the universe, and defend ourselves or someone else for the sake of love.  Was it not correct to take up resistance and yes, arms against the Nazis in Germany?  Should the whole world have willingly walked into the gas chambers and succumb to them out of conscience, saying " I won't fight or take a life?"  Most would say, "no, of course they should have been opposed." 

I stand by my comments that one can believe that killing is wrong, but from a consciousness point of view, it is your intent that matters most.  If a person ends up killing insects, mice, or other animals, as a byproduct of a necessary situation in the physical plane, where one has no other reasonable choice, it is different than a person setting out to kill for the sake of killing. 

The same is true of defending oneself if attacked.  One can defend and have love in one's heart, and yet the attacker may have perished.  It is, to me not the same thing as attacking another person with the intent to do harm.

Matthew

I agree that there are circumstances in which killing may be the only option for the greater good.  However, this idea is only relative in our present murderous society.  Ideally, we would live in a society where noone: human, animal, or insect- would have to be killed for reasons out of sync with love.  My original point is that if the insect can be freed from one's home without harming it, this should always be done. 

I agree.

I am not saying that I am the same as a maggot per se, and yes if it comes down to my life or a maggot's life I would choose myself.

Obviously I am different in many ways from an insect...

But....

It seems wrong at least to me to assume that an insect is an automatic creature that is meaningless and soul-less meanwhile I on the other hand... which is "better" has a soul etc.

word up homie

Besides my liking for putting an edge to thoughts, I do find it heartwarming to read some of the posts in this thread. I find cruelty against any life form repulsive, but personally dip into grey areas when it comes to self-defense, where some might find that cruel. Another scenario I can think of is once where banana flies, also spirit energy animating bodies, went into the food and drink. Lots of clapping, but no sing along on my part. Self-defense, nah, but still I clapped, and would do so now.

Today I went to a friend's house, and while my friends were playing a game, I and a friend's companion cat cuddled. I noticed that the cat interacted with one of my chakras in a healing way, and I directed energy though the hands back to the cat, and it was pure bliss.

BTW it does say "thou shalt not kill" not that thou shalt not murder a person.

I don't put much stake into the Bible, so it doesn't matter to me.

Diatomaceous earth is a wonderful product to put around plants and put into animal feed, keeps down fly population and is natural product.

Food grade is what you want. It is even good for people and dogs. Read up.

I believe in doing as little harm as possible. I try not to kill. But if some insect is eating more of my garden than I can afford, I use natural soap spray and diatomaceous earth. I even pick up stranded earthworms in the driveway. Hey, it's not hurting me to have a tender heart.

Well, it seems a simple thing to say, a maggot is disgusting and vile, I should kill it. But do I truly understand this being? It is a living thing. How can I be so sure that it is ok to destroy it?

Scientists are somewhat uncertain how to measure intelligence. I say this because there are many ways of testing.

A cat for instance, will NOT understand it's reflection in a mirror. It will most likely completely ignore it!
A bird, I think it was a magpie, will actually react to a speck on it's feathers if it sees the spot in the mirror and will proceed to clean it off.

WOW.... think about that. Just because it is a lower life form does not mean it has no consciousness..... does not mean it is an automatic being of no importance. That maggot could have a very specific consciousness which we simply cannot measure since we do not know how....

All of this mainly leaves me, very very confused and uncertain....!

Coming in late as usual. Viewed from one perspective the situation is quite black and white - and not in the least a matter of shades of grey between right and wrong:

1. All beings command love, and that probably  includes Gaia/the earth - who knows what has consciousness, and what not?)

2. Realised beings are inacapable of anything except loving behavours.

3. Trouble is we all as a result of our belief in separate individuality have placed ourselves in an ego created reality of competing selves built on fear - with the result that we believe we can only survive by behaving aggressively towards others.

4. Even those of us who at some level have come to know that this view is mistaken have not so far been unable to shed our belief in this reality, and so we find ourselves 'between stools' - trying to be loving, but  'here' as a life form that needs to eat and otherwise use others to survive.

5. It's really not possible to be here, and to not be subject to/believe many the rules of this reality. (you could say the physics of it) So its pretty much impossible not to take life or do other harm at times. Even Jesus presumably trod on lots of insects by accident, and seems not to have been a vegetarian. (vegetables are life anyway)

6. The fix is to drop our attachment to/belief in self, and in the need to inhabit this self made reality to survive - the physical body and the intellect we think is 'me'. With that goes our fear of returning to God/the whole and we're out of here.

But that's realisation, and most of us are trapped by our beliefs/attachments. The key perspective for us seem to be how we relate to this situation.

Its important to minimise the suffering we cause, because otherwise we create karma that makes it even harder for us to step free - for example in the form of aggressive responses from those that as a result fear us, and as a result threaten us. Making it likely we will respond in like manner, thus escalating the cycle of fear, aggression and suffering.

It's very difficult to progress spiritually if we're so scared that we're driven to instinctively lash out in 'self' defence all the time.

The key perspective is forgiveness of others (for the above reason), and especially of ourselves for whatever we may do. Self blame and the resulting guilt and fear of retribution - whether from others, through karmic consequences that we ourselves actually create, or from an imaginary vengeful God for 'sin' inevitably drives us further into delusional perception, and blinds us to the voice of Spirit, and to love.

Even more so in the afterlife context when these guilt based beliefs, and the resulting fear drive us into ever less love filled rebirths and life circumstances.

Forgiveness (or the dropping of our attachment to this guilt and fear based belief system - a system which is not compatible with a loving God) builds  from the knowledge that only love is real, and that no matter how we feel we have 'sinned' or been sinned against, or done wrong or been done wrong that it's not for real except in our own mind - and that if it is to have consequences that can only be as a result of our own mistaken belief in it.

That viewed from reality or the perspective of Spirit that it never happened, and that any ersatz reality it appears to have is entirely of our own making.

When we truly transcend these beliefs it all falls away...

Its true, certain animals eat certain other animals- for survival.  Not because one got in their way or inconvenienced them.. that is generally the case anyway.  I'm aware that certain animals are territorial, but if that is their true nature, or generated by fear, I don't know.

Actually, plenty of animals will kill because they were inconvienienced, or just for fun.  Racoons will wipe out an entire flock of chickens (or ducks), as will 'possums.  I know any number of donkeys, and a few mules, who will kill any dog, cat, woodchuck, or other small critter that gets in their pasture.  Some of that may be territoriality, but the small animals are no actual threat, they just "annoy".

I suspect the only reason that most animals don't kill bugs is because they don't have a good method - no hands, hard to slap a mosquito.  Most will catch and kill (and sometimes eat) large flies like horse flies, given the chance.

Nature, red in tooth and claw, as the man said.  People take it to extremes, it's true, but, as they say, it's a jungle out there.