just wondering?

There seems to be some inconsistency in observations on suicide. Robert Monroe basically said that there was no ban on suicide and that no-one worth listening to was going to punish or even condemn you for this.
However, Michael Newton's books have many interlife (if that's the word) hypnotic regression sessions where the person who had committed suicide had to face up to their soul groups and guides and account for their actions. So while there was/is understanding of what happens, you have to face up to it and realise that you will still have to face whatever problems that you had in future lives.
Mind you, this is a world away from one book I read that stated that suicides had their guardian angels taken away from them. I get the impression that that was just a bit of propaganda dressed up so as to discourage people from considering it.
Anyway, why should suicide cases be punished? We're supposedly given no more than we are capable of handling in our lives, BUT (and this is a big but) when you're really going through the mill and you can't take any more, life seems to be crapping all over you and you see no future ahead, then AT THE TIME and WITH THE INFORMATION YOU HAVE AT THAT TIME it might seem to be the only logical course of action.
Anyone who would punish you as a result of your conclusions would be unreasonable at best and totally controlling at worst. I can understand anyone wanting to end it all through circumstances they can neither control or understand, and at times like these, trust seems impossible and irrelevant, and being in emotional turmoil then trying to listen to guides is absolutely impossible.

Probably other folks here can comment further on this.

Best wishes,
David.

I personally believe that they are given a time of reflection. Perhaps the circumstances vary, but I have never seen anyone being punished.

In the NDE that inspired modern interest in this phenomenon, George Ritchie sees a tormented young suicide following his grieving mother and repeatedly shouting, "I'm sorry, I didn't know!  I didn't know!" If suicides are forced to face the tragic consequences of their actions, this in itself seems to be a form of self-imposed punishment.

Don 

No one is punished. I have observed suicides encased in a golden coccoon of light in the Healing and Rejuvenation Centers on various "levels", but have also observed those seemingly caught in the in-between levels, what Bruce called the "hollow heavens" and Monroe called Focus 24-25-26. I have often posted that these levels are being cleared, and that they are not so "populated" as they were only a few earth years ago. This is no accident and has been observed by many OBE'ers.

No, on one is ever punished. Or lost forever (here I disagree with Bruce as my info is different).

Thomas

What most people seem to say on this board is that when you kill yourself you are lost in a state of confusion and emotions in which you cannot get out of until you accept what you have done and become ready to move on.

Not saying I believe it, I don't believe anything for certain. HaHa!

Depends on your belief system and the ultimate true nature of reality (if such a thing exists).

If life is a school: Possibility that your reincarnation after suicide will be a carbon copy of your previous incarnation, allowing you multiple attempts to get over the hurdles that cause you to commit suicide.

If life is Pure Unconditional Love (PUL): 2 possibilities 1) You will be your own punisher, as you will regret hurting those who love you. 2) You'll disolve back into PUL and see that it was irrelevant (hence no punishment)

If prison planet: Most likely the warders discourage suicide and will have a punishment lined up for you. After that (between lives purgatory), as a joke you will most likely reincarnate into the same circumstances.

P.S. Notice the body is 99% suicide proof . Like being in a prison or institution, suicide is almost impossible.

Well, I mean, think about it. Some people might need to express some anger, after all that. Some people might need to express their feelings of victimization. Some people might need to feel loved, in a big way. Who can say?

Wouldn't it be appropriate to have the time to do that? My own personal interpretation is that the universe allows us to be who we are to the best extent possible. There's a momentum going, even if a person decides to end their life. There are energies that must be released.

Who am I to say how that should be done?

In a mind journey I had an experience very similar to what Don has posted. In what appeared as a past life of mine, I commited suicide, but immediately after that I realised I had been full of grief that I did so, just like the ones I left behind, and who I, that's what it felt, betrayed, them, and our love we shared. This had been shown to me by this very family I had left, and I was assured that they don't blame me; I only had to know what I had done. And it hurted so bad.

Spooky

spooky2 wrote on Sep 27^th, 2009 at 9:53pm:

I realised I had been full of grief that I did so, just like the ones I left behind, and who I, that's what it felt, betrayed, them, and our love we shared. I only had to know what I had done. And it hurted so bad. Spooky

Spooky;
Well said..:) and to the point.

sorry to say that what you felt like...betrayed..yes you did betrayed the love you share with those members of family/friends/acquaintance etc.

People who suicide only care about themself and only themself not about  the peoples who love them and care for them, otherwise they will have made the effort to talk to those they love before doing it.

I personally find it very hard to care for those suicidal especially when they leave young children s/husbands behind. I know i should not and try to change that, but it's hard to care in those circumstances..it's something i have to learn.

PUL
Romain

Romain wrote on Sep 28^th, 2009 at 12:03am:

spooky2 wrote on Sep 27th, 2009 at 9:53pm: I realised I had been full of grief that I did so, just like the ones I left behind, and who I, that's what it felt, betrayed, them, and our love we shared. I only had to know what I had done. And it hurted so bad. Spooky Spooky; Well said..:) and to the point. sorry to say that what you felt like...betrayed..yes you did betrayed the love you share with those members of family/friends/acquaintance etc. People who suicide only care about themself and only themself not about  the peoples who love them and care for them, otherwise they will have made the effort to talk to those they love before doing it. I personally find it very hard to care for those suicidal especially when they leave young children s/husbands behind. I know i should not and try to change that, but it's hard to care in those circumstances..it's something i have to learn. PUL Romain

Hey Romain,

I have been suicidal many times and trust me, when you're in that frame of mind, you're not thinking rationally, but you "think" that you are.  Suicide seems like the only option sometimes (I know its not)

I have an 11 year old, and when I'm suffering from my pain, I think hard and long about things. She is the reason why I've been here this long.

Honestly, I can't make any promises, but I go to my scheduled therapy so that I can be there for my kid. We have a great relationship and I'd never want to leave her, but depressed people suffer from a chemical imbalance which makes that part of our brain, not think in a logical manner for a while.

I hate that I have this, but its something that I'm dealing with and hopefully will overcome. :)

Romain,
"People who suicide only care about themself and only themself not about  the peoples who love them and care for them, otherwise they will have made the effort to talk to those they love before doing it."

Love is irrelevant when faced with an emotional black hole. Even more so when the ones around, not even close to the same degree of emotional turmoil, can't muster a purple heart.

"PUL
Romain"

You're full of it allright. Jeezaloo, that's the most pompous punch line ever. Can you even spell unconditional?

supermodel wrote on Sep 28^th, 2009 at 1:26am:

[quote author=300D0F030B0C620 link=1254034050/9#9 date=1254110619][quote author=73706F6F6B7932000 link=1254034050/8#8 date=1254102832] I hate that I have this, but its something that I'm dealing with and hopefully will overcome. :)

Super;
Just keep at it and remember the little one and you'll do fine.
PUL
R.

Of course, the depressed person needs treatment and perhaps medication.  But it is universally recognized by Christian contemplatives and mystic masters that "the dark night of the soul" can be an advanced spiritual state.  Some of the most effective Christian preachers have been clinically depressed!  The depression of "the dark night of the soul" often renders its victim more sensitive, more empathetic to the suffering of others,  and hence more capable of spiritual growth and insight.  In this sense, it can be a superior spiritual state to "normal" balanced consciousness. 

People commit suicide for many reason--some very  immoral, others understandable and tragic.  In the latter category, I would place a deeply spiritual parishioner who could no longer bear the pain of a growing, malignant, inoperable brain tumor.  So he shot himself in the head in his driveway and his wife called the church and just flatly observed, "Al is in the driveway!"  She needed to say no more. 

The Bible never treats suicide as a sin.  It discusses 2 cases.  (1) Judas betrays Jesus in the Garden of Gethsemane.  Then he grasps the enormity of his mistaken disillusionment and goes out and hands himself.  But this suicide expresses remorse and makes Judas more of a tragic figure than an evil figure.

(2) In a lost battle with the Philistines, King Saul lies mortally wounded on the battle field and asks his armor bearer to finish him off before he is captured, tortured, and executed by the victorious Philistines.  Saul was a flawed character, but his suicide is treated as a tragic, heroic act, not as a sin. 

Don

Hi I had the doctor in the week ,i took wine and tablets and i seriuosly had made up my mind to go but i was saved and now im on more medication and i been reffered to a phycriatic nurse at last because i been crying to them for years for help and now im finally getting it,but i did not even care when i tried to take my life at the time because the urge to do it was so strong and at that time i had had enough and i wanted out.i asked god to forgive me when i would have entered the spiritworld

Love and God bless love juditha

Iank, Do you feel that they need to be punished? Who are we to think that we have a right to pass judgment upon others because of our own personal beliefs? Who are we to say that one must not kill them-self? I fully agree with assisted suicide. When I am 90 years old and filling  my pants, need someone to wipe my butt, feed me, wash me,  etc...just let me go. In fact isn't a "living will or DNR" in fact a legal suicide?

supermodel wrote on Sep 28^th, 2009 at 1:26am:

Romain wrote on Sep 28th, 2009 at 12:03am: spooky2 wrote on Sep 27th, 2009 at 9:53pm: I realised I had been full of grief that I did so, just like the ones I left behind, and who I, that's what it felt, betrayed, them, and our love we shared. I only had to know what I had done. And it hurted so bad. Spooky Spooky; Well said..:) and to the point. sorry to say that what you felt like...betrayed..yes you did betrayed the love you share with those members of family/friends/acquaintance etc. People who suicide only care about themself and only themself not about  the peoples who love them and care for them, otherwise they will have made the effort to talk to those they love before doing it. I personally find it very hard to care for those suicidal especially when they leave young children s/husbands behind. I know i should not and try to change that, but it's hard to care in those circumstances..it's something i have to learn. PUL Romain Hey Romain, I have been suicidal many times and trust me, when you're in that frame of mind, you're not thinking rationally, but you "think" that you are.  Suicide seems like the only option sometimes (I know its not) I have an 11 year old, and when I'm suffering from my pain, I think hard and long about things. She is the reason why I've been here this long. Honestly, I can't make any promises, but I go to my scheduled therapy so that I can be there for my kid. We have a great relationship and I'd never want to leave her, but depressed people suffer from a chemical imbalance which makes that part of our brain, not think in a logical manner for a while. I hate that I have this, but its something that I'm dealing with and hopefully will overcome. :)

Hey Supermodel. I know how you feel. I have been in a suicidal state of mind plenty of times before. I think you summed it up well. It is kind of like a vortex that pulls you into this hopeless feeling and drowns out any other thoughts until its over. Having been close to the edge before I can say in retrospect I'm glad I didn't do it. And I'm glad you didn't either. I think a big part of it is knowing what it would do to my parents and the rest of my family. Plus Spooky's testimonial on that shows that we will also have to find out what our loved ones feel even if we do it.
And Juditha, I'm glad you were saved and referred. Good to see things looking up for you!

Peace,
David

There are those who manage to heal, however way is right for them. But some are not able to do this, and do indeed end one of their many roles on earth. What the loved ones feel is not only necessarily just love, but sure an an easy way to label it - put all emotions into a box and call it love. In this case love masks their selfishness, and maybe other feelings they don't want to see in themselves, by wanting someone to keep feeling the immense pain, because 'we love you'. There's a huge difference between wanting someone to be in your life, and demanding that they stay, with "love".

It's not their life to dictate, they got their own lives for that purpose.

If such a choice means the loved ones stop loving the spirit, it's yet another example of love being used instead of the truer feeling(s). Hurt perhaps. Whatever. Anyone who has been there, done that, KNOWS there's no way of disappearing without a trace. So, owning up to one's choices, seeing how loved ones feel, there's more than just love being painted in such a picture.

If one walks a mile in the "sewerside" shoes, and if those shoes are still filled by your temporary feet at the end of that mile, now you know. It's not a belief anymore.

Hi,
Volu,

From reading your last two posts on this thread it is obvious to me -- but possibly not to any newbies -- that although you are a 'full member' of this site, you don't hold the beliefs that are the basis of afterlife knowledge.

Never before here have I heard such a tone as used against Romain in your recent post to him. I'd just like to emphasise that your views are your own and maybe no one else's.

Have you ever attempted to follow the guidebook exercises so that you could contact someone who cares for you in the afterlife? If not, why not?

Bets

I like this song. It reminds me that the bad times are just for a little while.

I can see clearly now     Johnny Nash
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NkwJ-g0iJ6w&feature=related

Volu and I have had some interesting exchanges (see the Psychedelic thread), but for my part, Bets, I enjoy the language, wit (when there is wit) and let the rest roll off. 

I want more people who are non-believers or rogue questioners to post.  Belief systems really don't matter.  We should be able to share ideas and be civil about it.

We used to have a guy named Spitfire on the board.  His posts created a lot of interesting discussions.  Likewise there were several other posters who were well known for their "tone," over the years (a guy named Chumley a few years back).

For my part, I draw the line at personal insults, but the views with "tude" also make the discussions interesting.


Matthew

Hola Bets,
"From reading your last two posts on this thread it is obvious to me -- but possibly not to any newbies -- that although you are a 'full member' of this site, you don't hold the beliefs that are the basis of afterlife knowledge."

First off, not going completely OT while answering you, here's a short observation about suicide: life goes on, both for the doer and the loved ones. So much for holding beliefs as a basis when there is knowledge to draw upon.

Maybe you could make a new topic where you name the ones that don't hold the beliefs that are the basis of afterlife knowledge? Maybe a less pretentious title for the topic though? Might want to start out with a definition first. Possibly any points on how to thread the needle, so that we can make the dress just how you like it. A handy tip is to cushion your words so that it gets so washed out no one gets offended, and the internal structures that make up for this feeling are kept comfortably in the dark. Straying from castrated language can also lead to a love retraction, which may very well have been a working title for a honest b-52s song.

"Never before here have I heard such a tone as used against Romain in your recent post to him."

Talking about tones, yours is a high-pitched one, one octave seem to be your range on the verbal piano, getting indignant when I dare (gasp) to bypass any PC filters. You can shush me all you want librarian, but I'll adjust my own volume. Though a ban will act as a mute button.

Bottom line. I don't care that you don't care for my tone. Now what?

"I'd just like to emphasise that your views are your own and maybe no one else's."

An interesting display of your love. And I'd like to emphasise *drumroll* that although one may like how some peppy words linger on the tongue, or how easy it is to play with them in the mind, unchallenged; without actually feeling it, phony express. You can say what you will about my response, but it's real.

"Have you ever attempted to follow the guidebook exercises so that you could contact someone who cares for you in the afterlife? If not, why not?"

It takes a docile follower (compared to being inspired) to make such a "tender" assumption. Keep plucking that chicken.

Hola Volu to you,

You're very facile with words ---this could be fun! Unfortunately you have a filter on what you read here that distorts what you're hearing and so I won't play this game very long.

You remind me of someone here I was very fond of. I'll not claim I loved him enough for your standards but I did love him and it took a long time to mourn his leaving. He wouldn't believe me either. Actually several guys have said my gentler nature doesn't show up much in my posts. Occasionally I regret that.
that mourned fellow also knew I'd worked in a library, oh psychic wonder. Actually it was a noisy nature center with books but close enough.   --   R U him?

Volu, what's OT? In my day and age it meant Old Testament. I bet you young whippersnappers have a new meaning for it tho'.

Could you paraphrase why you apparently haven't tried following the Guidebook? I think we could get somewhere with that if I could better understand what you're saying.

Thanks, Bets

DavidLay wrote on Sep 30^th, 2009 at 4:53am:

supermodel wrote on Sep 28th, 2009 at 1:26am: Romain wrote on Sep 28th, 2009 at 12:03am: spooky2 wrote on Sep 27th, 2009 at 9:53pm: I realised I had been full of grief that I did so, just like the ones I left behind, and who I, that's what it felt, betrayed, them, and our love we shared. I only had to know what I had done. And it hurted so bad. Spooky Spooky; Well said..:) and to the point. sorry to say that what you felt like...betrayed..yes you did betrayed the love you share with those members of family/friends/acquaintance etc. People who suicide only care about themself and only themself not about  the peoples who love them and care for them, otherwise they will have made the effort to talk to those they love before doing it. I personally find it very hard to care for those suicidal especially when they leave young children s/husbands behind. I know i should not and try to change that, but it's hard to care in those circumstances..it's something i have to learn. PUL Romain Hey Romain, I have been suicidal many times and trust me, when you're in that frame of mind, you're not thinking rationally, but you "think" that you are.  Suicide seems like the only option sometimes (I know its not) I have an 11 year old, and when I'm suffering from my pain, I think hard and long about things. She is the reason why I've been here this long. Honestly, I can't make any promises, but I go to my scheduled therapy so that I can be there for my kid. We have a great relationship and I'd never want to leave her, but depressed people suffer from a chemical imbalance which makes that part of our brain, not think in a logical manner for a while. I hate that I have this, but its something that I'm dealing with and hopefully will overcome. :) Hey Supermodel. I know how you feel. I have been in a suicidal state of mind plenty of times before. I think you summed it up well. It is kind of like a vortex that pulls you into this hopeless feeling and drowns out any other thoughts until its over. Having been close to the edge before I can say in retrospect I'm glad I didn't do it. And I'm glad you didn't either. I think a big part of it is knowing what it would do to my parents and the rest of my family. Plus Spooky's testimonial on that shows that we will also have to find out what our loved ones feel even if we do it. And Juditha, I'm glad you were saved and referred. Good to see things looking up for you! Peace, David

Aww David thank you! PM me anytime you'd like! :)

@Volu:


Quote:

In this case love masks their selfishness, and maybe other feelings they don't want to see in themselves, by wanting someone to keep feeling the immense pain, because 'we love you'.

sorry if I interrupt your argument, just wanted to say thanx for these words. I agree, letting go shows more love than delusional ownership or covered up guilt. It's just like any divorce (with the difference that it's easier to push the guilt off to the one who left and in the long run it'd also be easier for most people to push aside the differences they had and say "I'm sorry").


Quote:

Love is irrelevant when faced with an emotional black hole.

Well, in this case, if love is actually given, but not received, there may not be relief after death, either, so suicide may or may not be the best idea.


just my two pence,
take care,
Vagabound

@supermodel:


Quote:

I have been suicidal many times and trust me, when you're in that frame of mind, you're not thinking rationally, but you "think" that you are.

Your thoughts are real and important at any moment, not only when they're compatible with other people's thoughts. Thoughts that go beyond just thinking about phrasing things right, usually show you what you're trying to hide or think you can't do. You were strong enough to quit hiding and to reach out for help. Even if you should find out that your therapist can't really help you, it's not the end of the world because it's all about the steps that you are taking to find where your happiness lays.
What I mean is trust yourself and take yourself seriously. The one who put you into this life was sure you can do it. And so am I.

Btw, feelings and thoughts are seldom rational. We couldn't even agree on what's best to have for breakfast.

take care,
Nastarowje,
Vagabound

Konnichiwa Bets,
"You're very facile with words ---this could be fun! Unfortunately you have a filter on what you read here that distorts what you're hearing and so I won't play this game very long."

I differ, no begging involved, but I sure do have my own set of filters and challenges. Depression/suicide is one challenge I have dealt with, internally and externally with others I care deeper for than words will do justice. I've slashed the wrists both the right and the wrong way, walked into the sea during the winter, and kicked the bucket twice. Still here though, and the black hole is gone, including the body's control in this particular area. A body controlled spirit would not consider suicide. Another piece in the escape velocity puzzle.

"You remind me of someone here I was very fond of. I'll not claim I loved him enough for your standards but I did love him and it took a long time to mourn his leaving. He wouldn't believe me either. Actually several guys have said my gentler nature doesn't show up much in my posts. Occasionally I regret that."

I bet you a warm hug that you'd be surprised at my gentle side. Your gentle side does indeed show through in the posts I've read. Otherwise wouldn't be bad neither. I'm brutally honest about what I view not to be heartfelt when the implication is otherwise, words I see tossed around like salad in the imaginary food for thought show. Though, in my naming of what I dub flat out to be bullshit, it's not a secret that I'm also reminded of my own bullshit. Been pretty good at the too gentle side, and now focus on adjusting my feisty side to a level I'm happy with. But I do still stand by my response, like it or not.

"that mourned fellow also knew I'd worked in a library, oh psychic wonder. Actually it was a noisy nature center with books but close enough.   --   R U him?"

The only librarian with an interest for the beyond I've chatted with was on mIRC, a realtime chat program.

"Volu, what's OT? In my day and age it meant Old Testament. I bet you young whippersnappers have a new meaning for it tho'."

I meant that most of my post was off topic. Perhaps a mixture of white- and midnight snapper.

"Could you paraphrase why you apparently haven't tried following the Guidebook? I think we could get somewhere with that if I could better understand what you're saying."

Most of the time I like bits and pieces of what I read. Could be argued that I take in what fit my views and dump the rest. Could also be argued that I take in what works for ever important me, and leave what doesn't, though it seems to be common to eat the entire dish out of expectation, enriched by a heavy flavour of conformity. A combination perhaps, but I got what I need for now.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yNpqASFNs5s

Vagabound,
"sorry if I interrupt your argument, just wanted to say thanx for these words."

Thanks for the thanks.

"Well, in this case, if love is actually given, but not received, there may not be relief after death, either, so suicide may or may not be the best idea."

My experience is to both give and receive, yet the hole was still there. I asked my girlfriend at the time to 'please, help me', but she answered she couldn't do that, that I had to do that on my own. Not at all what I wanted to hear, but exactly right, for me.

I see working through it while still dragging the body around as a better option, but not the only option. What may be discouraging for some leaving the body by suicide is the sudden bang on realization that it's impossible to not exist, but I can understand that for some it might be helpful to deal with their emotions without the body.

Mooshy-mooshy, Volu!

(Your link to Colosseum music led me back to the '60's when my studio partners and I played such music while we painted etc. Thank you!  Hope that doesn't get my thoughts here all sentimental.)

Your 'path', now that I hear some of it, has my deep respect.
It's different than mine, where fear and terror were eventually overpowered by PUL. I know my path and the powers discovered there, just as you know yours.

I realize you don't like thinking without hard experience to back it up but now I'm conjecturing anyway --perhaps PUL is the perfect antithesis to fear, but perhaps not to all of soul's trials. Wondering that self-hate/destruction might suffocatingly ooze out from a hate-filled environment, and that the path from that h-hell might be more rational, like learning  the limits of hate when confronted by the truly eternal. -- Too much philosophizing?

But I probably got off track again because the soul I see there is like a pearl, and the soul I hear in your post is friends with fire.

We haven't chatted before but I've learned alot from this encounter.

Bets

Where were we? Oh Yes...there's no punishment for suicide, unless you punish yourself. That was it.

hawkeye wrote on Oct 2^nd, 2009 at 2:30pm:

Where were we? Oh Yes...there's no punishment for suicide, unless you punish yourself. That was it.

LOL....now we're back on track! ;)

Bets,
I agree with the tapping of fingers wanting to get on with it, so maybe we'll connect on another topic. Thanks for your kind words, and about learning, right back at you. Take care. :)

Hawkeye,
"Oh Yes...there's no punishment for suicide, unless you punish yourself. That was it."

Short and sweet. Agreed.

Supermodel,
I hear your 'moving on', and raise it with 'yet you're not moving'. Maybe you too like something you can relate to?

Kids. As a blank page relying on pages with words on them, the beginning of the book is going to make an impact as the story progresses, and those words can stick for a long time while being here, for better or worse. Though blows are softened early on, come adolescence and they bloom too, and an already rough start can get rougher. Having made a choice to have kids, the consequence is an extension of responsibility to include kids as they grow up, to teach them what one has learnt, and show them the way around the block. They will run into the world, the world will run into them, and there will be questions asked, lines to be drawn, laughter to be shared, and tears to be wiped. I don't care for beating oneself up with a suggested punishment, but I care for trying harder, for both the personal victory of getting past an almost all consuming (earthly) difficulty, and being a responsible parent that did his or her very best.

Though the punishment for the suicide is in the final analysis self-inflicted, this verdict needs to be qualified.  The suicide cannot simply escape the consequences of his action.  Nor does the suicide provide the escape that solves the sufferer's problem.  As noted, the evidence of NDEs points to tormented souls who feel compelled to tune in to the lives and anguish of loved ones they victimized by their suicide.  I doubt they had any other choice if they loved the mourner in question.  NDE evidence also implies that the progress of the deceased can be delayed by the powerful grief of surviving loved ones who just cannot let them go.  Conversely, the case of Phyllis that I described on this site shows that the refusal or inability of a surviving loved one to grieve can delay the progress of the newly deceased loved one.  Also, NDE evidence indicates that the suicide will eventually be subjected to a past life review in which he will experience not only the events leading up to his suicide,but also the painful feelings of loved ones impacted by his decision.  ES's astral explorations suggest several such past life reviews when the soul is ready for them.

Don 

I'm fairly sure I committed suicide at the end of my last incarnation.  I had a lot of recurring dreams about it when I was younger, and I've always had a strong fear of heights and falling.  (The suicide method was jumping off the roof of a house)

While I can't remember a lot in the way of specifics, I *can* say that I don't believe that it solved my underlying problem.  I'm also inclined to believe that I committed suicide in 1974, and came back in 1977; so I didn't spend a lot of time in the Afterlife before being bounced back.

Basically I'd become sick of physical life, more or less in general; and as my natal chart reasonably strongly indicates, there had to be a strong degree of persuasion used to get me to come back this time.  I get the feeling that I was told in no uncertain terms that, while there were acceptable ways of permanently leaving the ELS, if that's what I wanted, suicide wasn't one of them.

I just didn't want to be on Earth at all any more, and truthfully for most of this lifetime, it's been an effort for me to become motivated to interact with other people.  That has been more true than ever before, since I broke up with my ex-girlfriend.  I'm tired of the way people treat each other.  The contemporary idea of normal human behaviour, is where (as one example) an elderly person can collapse in the middle of the road, or get run over, and it will be maybe one in 20 motorists who will stop and help them.

Most people never learn anything, either; it is just the same pattern, over and over again, while the profit motive dominates literally every facet of human existence.  The repetition in that sense, is the main thing I get deeply tired of.  It is both agonising and entirely pointless.

Was I punished?  I'm actually inclined to answer yes, truthfully.  I'm autistic currently, and something tells me that is a punishment for the suicide.  I also had a kidney removed at 13, and I've tended to believe that that happened in order to prevent me from being able to engage in a lot of drug or alcohol abuse, which I suspect I did in the previous lifetime, as well.

I don't know how to engage with other people and have it become something positive, either.  The last several times when I've tried, have generally resulted either in me nearly being killed, or getting into seriously psychologically abusive situations which have only reduced my desire to interact with people even more.

At this point, I'm not focused on too much more than survival, and the limited computer use I'm able to engage in.  Loneliness is gradually becoming more and more of a problem, recently, and I'm not sure how to deal with that yet, either.  I don't think the answer is going to be to try and get involved with someone else again; I've been there and done that, and I am not interested in putting my wellbeing on the line to that extent again.

Petrus, there some similarities to what I've experienced. In my view on my suicidal past life, I jumped from a cliff. Before this, and still, sometimes, I have dreams where I am laying on a featureless plane and am magically yet terribly drawn to the edge of that plane, onto a deep abyss.
    When I once asked about what was before this incarnation, I found I was reluctant to come back, but was told "You know it is the best" and I somehow agreed.
   I've never felt like being at home here on earth, more like a stranger who doesn't know what's the point of being here, and I'm annoyed by the sillyness and hardship all around. I live very solitary, but have a few regular social contacts. I've been born into a family who I feel do love me, and that's what keeps me alive.

Spooky

Petrus and Spooky I can definitely relate to some of the things you've said.

Although I've never had any inkling to what my past life or lives entailed but I've always felt...

1. Why the heck am I here?
2. There is no purpose to life.
3. I hate the way we treat each other here and feel that there is a "better" existence.
4. Why the heck am I here? :-[

Spooky,
"I've never felt like being at home here on earth, more like a stranger who doesn't know what's the point of being here, and I'm annoyed by the sillyness and hardship all around. I live very solitary, but have a few regular social contacts. I've been born into a family who I feel do love me, and that's what keeps me alive."

I like your no-frills honesty and empathize with you. Certainly have felt and still feel like a stranger in this system. This is one area I connect with being an individual, as I can't and and won't be a part of what's deemed ordinary in this world, with some exceptions like making a living. My two beautiful best friends are what make my stay worthwhile. The irony is that I found them in a dark place, with depression and black metal being key ingredients. Tried really hard to obliterate my feelings, but found out that there was a core within that was impossible to destroy. At that time I made a sweeping harsh statement calling people zombies for being able to function in this place, but now see that as tiny sparks of greater selves, we are on different levels. Have other friends that I hang out with, but the scope of connection is limited to specific areas like sharing a fondness for games, movies, music and such, and start to feel uncomfortable after a while with the vibrations that most of the time seem to circle around boring everyday stuff. I've got a strong longing for moving on from lunging this body around, to return to my true self, but still got lessons to deal with and experiences to make here.

You sound like a very likable spark. My best wishes for your path.

Very interesting that many of us here remember our suicides from our past lives. I believe that is possible because of the high emotion connected with the experience. I too remember a personal suicide. When I was a child of around 5 or six. I recall experiencing a memory of hanging myself in a closet. I ended up even playing a game where I repeated the experience. Freaked my mother out when I called her down to my room to find me. After a good butt tanning, I never repeated it. I have always remembered the memory.
Now what of those who kill themselves at an old age? By refusing medication or treatment. Must they also be stuck in the revolving door of reliving the experience until they have a cognition about the effects on others. Or they except that their actions are "bad". Because giving up on life..isn't that suicide also?By having a living will and at the end of your life refusing further medication..isn't that suicide?
No one else owns your life. I believe in the rights of those wishing to end their lives, to do so. The belief that they will end up in a hell for any length of time(?) may well be just "bung". Having killed myself in a past life, I understand that there are lessons to be learned. Mostly about how the event effects others and about love. Some believe that its OK for an older person to kill them self, but not a young person. Is the feeling of loss any less for someone older?
Then there is the point about emotional attachment to those who have moved on by committing suicide. Yes the emotions of others effected can hold a part of them back. It would be most difficult to pass through the aperture, as an example, with an attachment to the phyical. Although it would seem that some here believe that it not possible to progress spiritually it you kill ones self. (I wonder when Bob will ever get fully past the entrance with all the love and emotion that is directed towards him?)      

Hmm, not trying to be offensive with this, but have you guys who've experienced these memories ever considered that you have tuned into another discarnate spirit's memories instead and you're considering it your own?  Obviously you know better than anyone else, but if I had those memories that's what I would think was happening as I don't believe reincarnation normally happens, unless maybe someone dies as a very young person.

Pratekya,

Your interpretation strikes me as the most likely.  When a discarnate spirit merges with either an incarnate human or an astral projector without their knowing this, the memories of the discarnate spirit are experienced as if they belonged to the percipient. 

Don

Hi,

Hawkeye said:  "Now what of those who kill themselves at an old age? By refusing medication or treatment. Must they also be stuck in the revolving door of reliving the experience until they have a cognition about the effects on others. Or they except that their actions are "bad". Because giving up on life..isn't that suicide also? By having a living will and at the end of your life refusing further medication..isn't that suicide? "

Like the word 'love', perhaps 'suicide' isn't adequate to cover all situations of 'self-exiting.' We need more words for these important aspects of life.

Hospice and even earlier 'self-exiting' surely must be exempt from having to replay the missing parts -- if those parts don't strongly involve others. Like at near the very end of an aged life.

Aren't we all a part of a web of life? So if we've met all the encounters planned for us, that were to teach us and those we interact with, then surely we can go. So how can you tell if youhave fulfilled your role in the lives of each person you've met and maybe are yet to meet?


Bets

Volu: Yes, we could establish a club, but people like us don't establish clubs. It's not easy, but within this state of mind, there are lessons and findings possible, which are impossible to gain for a happy camper.

Hawkeye: I believe there is no general rule. Every case is special. There may be suicides that are okay. In my case I told of, I found the reason why I did it was simply not sufficient: In that life, I had been tired of being poor, always struggling to have enough to eat for my family and myself, it was embarrasing for me, and thought they would be better off anyway if I left them. After I did it, all that became so tiny in relation to the love we shared, and I couldn't believe that I had been so blind not to see that I just had to stay with them as long as possible.

Pratekya and Don, yes, I considered this. I don't know if it actually was a past life of mine. There even is the possibility that this person I attributed as "me" had been someone else, and still "me" in the sense that there is a connection of the disk/higher self sort. I don't know this. Nevertheless, the details of my experience make it seem most unlikely that an imposter just wanted to tell me a story to have some fun. More likely it would be I told me that story myself for some reason. At first, I saw children playing on a meadow. Then I saw a lady, which was familar to me, but I had no memory about her. Then she "told" me that story (which was more like a video) and at the beginning I didn't know what that was about. I then started to feel guilty, and I noticed I am suppressing something, but it more and more dawned on me what it was, until I couldn't suppress it and the story unfold and I accepted and knew, that guy was me, and the lady and the children had been my wife and my children in that life. It took me some days to recover from the emotions and the consequences of this experience. So, when it wasn't a past life of mine, it nevertheless was a significant experience. And we can never find a proof which makes it absolutely certain that a story we experience is a past life anyway.

Spooky

Excellent response, Spooky.

Addressing whom it may concern: loved ones being victimized by suicide - how deep is your (adult) love? Is the love greater than that for cake? The adult loved ones missing a spirit can also get to know what it is like to drown in self-pity. The one committing suicide is supposedly selfish, but 'you left ME!' Can you also let go of somebody being run over by a runaway ice cream truck; is that being victimized? Still drop dead, either by own hand(s) or ice cream truck, or the many other possibilities to exit earth involvement.

Is the "love" people still on earth feel, the punishment in this thread?

There is also the mass suicide instances. Like in Jones-town. Jim Jones goes off to his hell ...but what of the others who truly believed they would be going to heaven? Why would they go to a hell? Some parents killed their own children. They must end up in hell. But what of the older children. The ones who may have had an small understanding of what was going on. Hell/ heaven? Or the person who at the last moment changed their mind and stepped in front of a bullet in an effort to stop the killing of anouther who was attempting to run away. That's still a suicide. The real fact may be that there is no such areas as heaven or hell. These "areas" could be a figment of our imaginations or as a result of fear based indoctrination by the church. In the experience I mentioned involving my self, I didn't spend any time in hell. I reviewed and came back to have anouther kick at the can. These hells and heavens existence all revolve around the premise of judgment. Worthy of heaven, or unworthy and sent to hell. Could it be the ridiculousness of organised religion attempting to control the minds of the masses and keep their coffers full through fear?

I like to consider myself to be open minded, but the problem with no hell existing, or our afterlife condition simply determined by our self assessment or belief about our own inherent worth is that it seems to totally negate justice in this life and the next.  Sociopaths who believe they are incredibly kind while torturing others would end up in heaven.  All of life's suffering basically becomes a joke, a sick joke at the expense of most of humanity.  More people die from malaria every day, which is largely preventable, than died in the attacks on the US on 9/11.  I would think that justice should demand more of a response from a rich country like the US than inaction on this issue and many more.  If hell or variations of afterlife conditions don't exist, justice for most of humanity would also not exist.  I'm not saying there is no progression in the afterlife, or that our views in the afterlife aren't important, but no hell or punishment = no justice for humanity.

One other thing.  Punishment may need not be active.  I don't think that God necessarily punishes people like a mother slapping the hand of a child who tries to eat a cookie.  Punishment could be much more automatic, such as if the child ate many cookies and felt sick afterward.

Hi,

Don't forget the BSTs-- it's all Belief System Territories up there in 'heaven.' Each of us earns a place with others who mirror our beliefs.

Bets

I guess that is "heaven" then isn't it?

To illustrate my point; on cnn.com front page right now is a story about a 20 year old kid who was into something called 'horrorcore' - singing / rapping about chopping people up.  He went ahead and did it - a 50 year old pastor and his 16 year old daughter, the daughter's 18 year old friend, and a 53 year old professor.

If that kid escapes the consequences of what he has done then where is the justice in the universe?  The victims and their families are simply unfortunate in the big scheme of things, and life is a sick joke.

I am in to a lot of weird things, like, I will admit I can look at an under age woman and feel sexually attracted to her.

BUT!!!!! BUT BUT BUT!!!!!

I have this feeling / conscience that says, hey... ok, so you have these thoughts... we can't change that, but you know where to draw the line right? It's bad. I just feel it.

This is how I would feel in regards to killing someone. I don't even kill flies anymore. I even think twice before killing a parasite because it is alive. It is experiencing life, the only life it has. Who am I to deal out death to any creature no matter how small. Even if it does effect me negatively, that poor creature will die and rot and it's existence will cease... just like me. It's so sad.

Pratekya, no it isn't that the absence of a metaphysical courtyard causes injustice. The case you allude to is a person who mistreats others with no regrets, with no bad conscience, maybe even with a belief of a reward for that. I say the consequences for doing so are much sader then any punishment of a court can be. It's because people can only perceive what they want to perceive. Think of such a criminal you have in mind, what is he/she open, and therefore able, to perceive? The continuation of an evil life will be an evil life, unless the focus of that person widens, to be able to perceive real pleasance, what it is, what it's like. Once they have changed, they have changed and they won't do evil deeds because they have changed, because they now know better. With this system you critized, you actually can set up a hell which is no less cruel, no less righteous than the hell Christendom painted in many colors. It's but not eternal, because either one will dissolve because of the dissolving nature of this person/unit of consciousness, or this person becomes able to see other horizons than before, and changes. This could happen immediately after a life review. Or it doesn't. 

Spooky

Terethian, I think you have a low unconsciousness-to-consciousness threshold, meaning you're aware, in thoughts, language, what others might be not aware of. That can be really bugging, but I tell you, it's necessary to become detached from possessions of all sorts. The next step is, after thinking through all of that, the realisation of what is really important, and what is of no interest. That finally goes along with the cease of thinking in words and emotions.

Spooky

I guess I don't really 'get' suicide. I mean, I just got back from the store on my bike, and I have this box of oatmeal in there now, and there are 4 different kinds of packets, and all you do is add hot water, and it's organic. There's always going to be oatmeal, right?

What more could anyone want?

Oatmeal? You're funny!

Well, suicidal thoughts often arise because we feel at some very deep place that trying to find needed resources in life to hold things together is just unlikely or too hard and we might die. Oatmeal keeps us alive. Rice has kept millions of Chinese and Asians alive when there was not much else. It's one thing to have enough to maintain life, but it's something else to be able to enjoy life. All of it scares the heck out of us sometimes. But I notice that when a Consciousness Worker is talking with Moen in Curiosity's Father that he points out that after the Earth Changes (whatever they turn out to be), then it will be much easier for people to get what they need in life than it has been hitherto. If that's any help.  It cheered me up anyway. Vee

Berserk2 wrote on Oct 2^nd, 2009 at 10:11pm:

Though the punishment for the suicide is in the final analysis self-inflicted, this verdict needs to be qualified.  The suicide cannot simply escape the consequences of his action.  Nor does the suicide provide the escape that solves the sufferer's problem.  As noted, the evidence of NDEs points to tormented souls who feel compelled to tune in to the lives and anguish of loved ones they victimized by their suicide.  I doubt they had any other choice if they loved the mourner in question.  NDE evidence also implies that the progress of the deceased can be delayed by the powerful grief of surviving loved ones who just cannot let them go.  Conversely, the case of Phyllis that I described on this site shows that the refusal or inability of a surviving loved one to grieve can delay the progress of the newly deceased loved one.  Also, NDE evidence indicates that the suicide will eventually be subjected to a past life review in which he will experience not only the events leading up to his suicide,but also the painful feelings of loved ones impacted by his decision.  ES's astral explorations suggest several such past life reviews when the soul is ready for them. Don

Hi Don....So in other words, don't suicide!....Suffer! Suffer! Suffer, while in a physical body!? No matter how it's racked with personal griefs and physical and mental diseases, emotional extreme trauma from past lives!? And!...Physical disfigurements and racial discrimination's! in their present lives..Etc, etc!

Don? Is your God of your understanding some sort of a manic depressive?....Worship me or face the consequences!?...Sincerely. Carl & Family.    

In talking about past life reviews, I have observed while talking with my acquaintances and loved ones who have passed over via a Medium, that some have done past life reviews and some have not. Those who have not done them, seem to continue to "not understand" certain things I'd have expected them to "get" shortly after arrival.

But it seems to me from my explorations that there is not an authority figure or body there who takes us when we arrive and starts to boss us around and tell us what we have to do. I don't gather that it works that way. Some want to understand all the stuff that happened weird in their lives and some just run around being sociable and happy, leaving the personal growth stuff for "later", whenever that might be.

Whether by suicide or sinking boat, by plane crash or car accident, cancer or accidental overdose by a negligent nurse, whatever way we go, none of us arrive there only to be taken in hand by a bunch of "immigration officials", sprayed with DDT and given tetanus shots. That's definitely not the scenario. Forget that stuff...that's Earth stuff. As I have said before, my firm conviction after my explorations, reading and inner work, is that suicide is just another way of leaving Earth. You've gotta forget the judicial system...it has never worked very well and never will, and is never going to be a part of life "over there." Vee

Vee, your message sounds exactly right to me. 

The only way the "survivors" of a suicide suffer any more than anyone else who has lost a loved one is because of the survivor's view that the person who committed suicide did so intentionally and therefore caused the survivor's pain which could have been avoided if only the suicide hadn't done it.  But the suicide was most likely in great pain of whatever kind, beyond what the survivor would have wanted them to bear if they had known.

My daughter committed suicide a year ago this next week.  I know she was suffering greatly and saw no way to get to a better place in this life.  She didn't want to hurt me or others, but she just couldn't go on living in this world.

Through Bruce's friend Caryl, I know she is in a better place.  She is helping babies and children who come across who have no one to meet them.  As she says, "Finally, I can help."  Has she done a "life review"?  I don't know, though she says she sees thing so differently now.  Will she be "punished" for taking her own life?  I simply can't believe that her act of "checking out" early warrants punishment by some judge and jury in the sky any more than countless acts of cruelty, abuse and inhumanity done by some who live to a ripe (rotten?) old age.  Besides, I don't believe there is a judge and jury in the sky.

Pat E- have you read Signals by Joel Rothschild ( on record as the longest survivor of full-blown AIDS)? It deals with the suicide of his best friend Albert and the aftermath.It is not a long book but I found it inspiring and something rather strange happened as I finished the book !

:)

Dave

It's just silly, but it's for a good cause. Apparently, today is World Porridge Day. I didn't know. I really didn't. The oatmeal just looked good to me, and I don't always buy it, and there wasn't a special sign there or anything to draw special attention to it. Just an ordinary day, tired of cereal, weather getting cooler...

But today, surprisingly, I find that a lot of folks are getting together to make porridge and talk about world hunger and try to make a difference. That's the kind of 'coincidence' I really like.




wrote on Oct 10^th, 2009 at 5:41pm:

I guess I don't really 'get' suicide. I mean, I just got back from the store on my bike, and I have this box of oatmeal in there now, and there are 4 different kinds of packets, and all you do is add hot water, and it's organic. There's always going to be oatmeal, right? What more could anyone want?

hi i think about suicide everyday now ,ive got two drs on my back ,got to see phyciatrist now,hate this world and they want to know why ,sent my suicide note i wrote which deanna gave to the dr and she sent it to a phyciatrist,i begged my dr last week to put me away in this hospital but she wont let me ,i know that if i commit it then i will have to explain in heaven,but then again i probably wont have to because spirit know about it anyway ,drs put me on more drugs but they just dull it ,but dont take it away,my moms statying with me as drs dont trust me with the wine and tablets at the moment ,so suicide should not be punished because when it starts to be an option ,it takes more than encouraging words to take it away,but the phyciatrist may save me,who knows.

love and god bless love juditha

I'm sorry you are having such trouble finding peace right now, Juditha. It's always okay for you to come here and put on this board how you are feeling. We love you here even if we can't always make it feel better for you, so I will keep you in my prayers and hope for good energies to find you.

I have a question. Is there something you once did as a child that you really enjoyed and you haven't done since then? Or, for a long time? A real childhood love. Something that you were very happy doing?

If there is something like that, maybe it can help.

Hi Juditha,

I am in your corner too.  Perhaps we can focus our healing energies on you in the Spiritual healings forum here.  If you are interested, let Romain know.  I'd love to help.

love,

Matthew

Juditha, what saved my life when my daughter died, apart from my incredible Hospice counselor, was a healing by a Shaman, which re-connected me to the Earth, Sky, Sea and Nature anew. I don't know if it would work for anybody else, just mentioning, it certainly made a big difference in life-wish level for me. When she died, I was cut off from Life and cast out into darkness where I floated detached. The Shamanic healing was able to whistle me back in. Vee

I attempted and almost succeeded in committing suicide due to my manic depressive illness and the unimaginable pain it brought me.

While clinically dead I had a near death experience where I was welcomes into the afterlife for a while, without any suggestion of punishment

However, our earth lives must always be considered a precious blessing from god and I am sure it is not Gods will that we take our own lives

Alan

wrote on Sep 28^th, 2009 at 2:10pm:

Hi I had the doctor in the week ,i took wine and tablets and i seriuosly had made up my mind to go but i was saved and now im on more medication and i been reffered to a phycriatic nurse at last because i been crying to them for years for help and now im finally getting it,but i did not even care when i tried to take my life at the time because the urge to do it was so strong and at that time i had had enough and i wanted out.i asked god to forgive me when i would have entered the spiritworld Love and God bless love juditha

Hi dear Judethia,

I have suffered terribly from manic depression for most of my life, but take heart dear if I could survive and come out at the other side so can anyone. Get all the help you can from the medical people there are amazing medicines to help you recover now

God Bless

Alan