Hello all, new here. I believe I may have been conditioned by Christianity beyond repair. It says in the Bible that there is no consciousness after death. We all "sleep" until Jesus returns. There is nobody and nothing that can convince me that Jesus never existed, I believe Jesus/Horus was based on a historical person, but Christianity frightens me in some ways. Can you guys please share with me the reason(s) you're so confident about life after death and you're not being fooled by any "evil beings"?

I'd like to just add that when I was 12 I was clinically dead and I experienced nothing but blackness. No NDE or anything like that. Thoughts?

It's interesting that your brain recorded memories while you were in blackness and clinically dead, dear one.
It might be helpful, I don't know, to mention that when we die, we can lose the heartbeat and be clinically dead, but our energy field is still in the body, and you don't let go of your body until your energy field has dropped free of it for the last time.
I have watched people and pets in the death process, and after the heartbeat is gone and they are declared dead, I can still see the energy field as it slowly, over minutes or longer, leaves the body. You can see when it is gone, the bright colorful lights vanish at last and sometimes the clear visual outline of the person's facial structure finally vanishes. Your energy field must have been well in possession of your body while you were clinically dead, and you had apparently not left your body behind at all.
There is definite advantage in learning to watch energy fields, even in the most basic way, as it allows you to know when someone or a pet has truly "passed."I do recommend, if you do not practice this skill, to start simple exercises to spot this beautiful evidence of life beyond the physical. You can start by placing a green plant in front of a cream-colored wall. Sit and watch the plant, eventually you will thrilled and surprised to see flashes of green lights splashing around between the branches and leaves and around the outline of the plant. Then you can move on to see energy fields in other ways...watch the top of a tree-covered mountain and stand out side watching the beautiful "waltz" of the massed energy fields of millions of trees all flashing their life-light together way up there, in a true orchestra of green disco color, as it moves up and down and back and forth across the mountain top. It's not hard at all, it just takes a little time and attention now and then. Best of luck in your searching journey...it's so exciting and stimulating. Vee

Vee wrote on Sep 22^nd, 2009 at 12:43am:

It's interesting that your brain recorded memories while you were in blackness and clinically dead, dear one. It might be helpful, I don't know, to mention that when we die, we can lose the heartbeat and be clinically dead, but our energy field is still in the body, and you don't let go of your body until your energy field has dropped free of it for the last time. I have watched people and pets in the death process, and after the heartbeat is gone and they are declared dead, I can still see the energy field as it slowly, over minutes or longer, leaves the body. You can see when it is gone, the bright colorful lights vanish at last and sometimes the clear visual outline of the person's facial structure finally vanishes. Your energy field must have been well in possession of your body while you were clinically dead, and you had apparently not left your body behind at all. There is definite advantage in learning to watch energy fields, even in the most basic way, as it allows you to know when someone or a pet has truly "passed."I do recommend, if you do not practice this skill, to start simple exercises to spot this beautiful evidence of life beyond the physical. You can start by placing a green plant in front of a cream-colored wall. Sit and watch the plant, eventually you will thrilled and surprised to see flashes of green lights splashing around between the branches and leaves and around the outline of the plant. Then you can move on to see energy fields in other ways...watch the top of a tree-covered mountain and stand out side watching the beautiful "waltz" of the massed energy fields of millions of trees all flashing their life-light together way up there, in a true orchestra of green disco color, as it moves up and down and back and forth across the mountain top. It's not hard at all, it just takes a little time and attention now and then. Best of luck in your searching journey...it's so exciting and stimulating. Vee

I don't doubt that's what you see, but some would argue you're being fooled by the power of demons.

I would think that God will always be more powerful than a devil, so why worry so much?

I think you saw blackness because that is exactly what you Expected to see! I have read retrievals of people who were trapped on the earth plane because they believed they were supposed to 'sleep' until Jesus returned. :P Boy, did they get a surprise!

Just look around for the abundant evidence for retrievals, read the retrievals forum! And follow your curiosity, and learn to listen to your 'inner voice' which is your higher self guiding you to the right choices. If you feel that people are giving you the whole 'the devil is decieving you' quip, just ask Yourself, if that is really the case, if they are just trying to instill you with fears and block your curiosity to explore what lies beyond this life.

Best wishes!

love and light,

Ally :)

Quantum Soul,

Although I am not christian, I am familiar with the Bible, and I do not see evidence that there is no consciousness after death.  There is a prominent christian scholar on this board, Don (Berserk2), and perhaps he could tell you more about it, in detail why the preacher/priest who told you this is mistaken, even by most accepted accounts of the Bible.

That being said, you can only convince yourself of the "survival hypothesis" by exploring.  For me, the first and strongest evidence came in deciding that you are more than your physical body.  Evidence from science, physics, and more directly EVP, and other means such as delving into near death experiences shows that we are more than our body.  If we indeed are more than flesh, it follows that spirit/soul may survive when the body falls away.  This type of exploration on your part can be done via reading, meditation, and other exploration including seeking out a religious community that is spiritually oriented.

Reading a copy of a book by Howard Storm's My Descent into Death may be the best way to approach this from a christian perspective.  Storm was not religious when he had a NDE with an extensive visit out of his body with Jesus and loved ones.

You are, unfortunately caught up in one person's belief system (the "eternal sleep" after death theory).  It is now time for you to learn about and explore what really happens.


Matthew

DocM wrote on Sep 22^nd, 2009 at 8:33am:

Quantum Soul, Although I am not christian, I am familiar with the Bible, and I do not see evidence that there is no consciousness after death.  There is a prominent christian scholar on this board, Don (Berserk2), and perhaps he could tell you more about it, in detail why the preacher/priest who told you this is mistaken, even by most accepted accounts of the Bible. That being said, you can only convince yourself of the "survival hypothesis" by exploring.  For me, the first and strongest evidence came in deciding that you are more than your physical body.  Evidence from science, physics, and more directly EVP, and other means such as delving into near death experiences shows that we are more than our body.  If we indeed are more than flesh, it follows that spirit/soul may survive when the body falls away.  This type of exploration on your part can be done via reading, meditation, and other exploration including seeking out a religious community that is spiritually oriented. Reading a copy of a book by Howard Storm's My Descent into Death may be the best way to approach this from a christian perspective.  Storm was not religious when he had a NDE with an extensive visit out of his body with Jesus and loved ones. You are, unfortunately caught up in one person's belief system (the "eternal sleep" after death theory).  It is now time for you to learn about and explore what really happens. Matthew

http://www.amazingfacts.org/resources/video/MPVideo/mp09.asx
The above video is a good watch if you want to get a Christian perspective of "the dead sleep". As for EVPs, sorry, I'm not making an excuse, it's just that I've actually came across arguments that EVPs are demons. Just check ChristianForums.com

Quantum,

If you are going by scripture, try interpreting John 14:2.

"In my Father's house are many rooms; if it were not so, I would have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you."

Many scholars take this as a direct mention in the Bible of Heaven awaiting the followers of Jesus.  The idea that this has to occur after a sleep of millenia is not substantiated in scritpure. 

A great webpage which debunks this is:

http://bible.org/seriespage/consciousness-soul-after-death

Matthew

Vee wrote on Sep 22^nd, 2009 at 12:43am:

It's interesting that your brain recorded memories while you were in blackness and clinically dead, dear one. Vee

Very interesting indeed. I have asthma and stopped breathing and I started to see the most important moments of my life appear before me like a movie.

I think what you believe now will influence what you "think" will happen to you when you die.

Since you were told that you would see "nothing" until Jesus comes back, that's exactly what you saw.

You could have roamed around in complete darkness for a long time before anyone tried to come and get you.

It's like when you sleep but don't have dreams, you don't remember the "sleep" so to speak so you just awaken.  I quoted Vee because that statement makes a lot of sense. You "remember" darkness. So there must have been some consciousness.

Quantum Soul:

The doctrine of soul sleep overlooks Paul's experience of progressive revelation.  As a Pharisee, he believed in soul sleep because his Jewish milieu believed that body and soul are inseparable and one cannot survive death without a transformed physical body.  So Paul uses the language of soul sleep in his earliest epistles (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17; 1 Corinthians 15:35-55).  But as Paul receives more revelation, he learns that we survive death, fully conscious in a spiritual body.  In his later epistles like 2 Corinthians and Philippians, he relishes the prospect of being in heaven with Christ immediately after death.  I will quote just two sample texts from the New Living Translation: 

"For we know that when this earthly tent we live in is taken down--when we die and leave these bodies--we will have a home in heaven, an eternal body made for us by God Himself and not by human hands.  We grow weary in our present bodies, and we long for the day when we will put on our heavenly bodies like new clothing.  For we will not be spirits without bodies, but we will put on new heavenly bodies.  Our dying bodies make us groan and sigh, but it's not that we want to die and have no bodies at all.  We want to slip into our new bodies so that these dying bodies will be swallowed up by everlasting life...Yes, we are always confident, AND WE WOULD RATHER BE AWAY FROM THESE BODIES, FOR THEN WE WILL BE AT HOME WITH THE LORD (2 Corinthians 5:1-4, 6)."

"For me, living is for Christ, and dying is even better.  Yet if I live, that means fruitful service for Christ.  I really don't know which is better.  I'm torn between two desires: Sometimes I want to live, and sometimes I long to go and be with Christ.  THAT WOULD BE FAR BETTER FOR ME, but it is better for you that I live (Philippians 1:21-23)."

This new perspective brings Paul's teaching in line with Jesus' teaching in Luke 23:42-43 and elsewhere:

"Then he [the dying thief on the adjacent cross] said, "Remember me when you come into your kingdom.'  Jesus replied, `TODAY you will be with me in Paradise (Lk 23:42-43).'"

Don

P.S.  Quantum Soul, for 12 years I was a college Theology professor, but now i'm a United Methodist pastor.  I'd advise you to read through my Swedenborg thread for amazing evidence of survival from the onset of death.

Even though I have had an amazing experience with a medium I still Have a phobia of death which is always with me and REALLY kicks in EVERY time I smoke weed. =( Which sucks cause I really want to enjoy it.

We all try to ignore it, to pretend it doesn't exist. Our thoughts, our mind, we focus on the daily tasks, the simple things, what we need, what we want, what we enjoy. The harsh reality is that it's all just a facade, a sham. Someday, my cat that greets me, follows me, adores me, will perhaps be lying on the ground, mewing pathetically from kidney failure. I will take him to the vet and say goodbye, knowing all the while that it's all so pointless, so hopeless. This same scenario will most likely take place with my parents. The ones that gave me life. Why? Is this existence? What am I? The base of myself, this voice in my head, I appear to be merely a thought. Yes a thought. And when that thought can no longer be supported by cells / organs, the thought will die, cease to think. The endless nothing. Ultimately this is unacceptable. No mind can truly accept this. My mind never will. How can I? How can I be happy like the stupid people going about they're lives? How can I take a hit and ENJOY it instead of freaking out about death? How can I go to work every day, producing envelopes and knowing what I do is nothing. The human mind does not seem to be capable of accepting this. It seems to me that even those that THINK they accept death in reality are only pretending, tricking they're own mind. Fools.

Terethian,
"We all try to ignore it, to pretend it doesn't exist. [...] The human mind does not seem to be capable of accepting this. It seems to me that even those that THINK they accept death in reality are only pretending, tricking they're own mind. Fools."

We all, really? The 'fools' ending seem to indicate jealousy. The out of body experiences were the easy part in dealing with this huge fear, and I've earned every ounce of dissipation of it. In my younger years I found out that at some point the body can take full control for a while to ensure survival, and I'm fine with that. The body can throw the hands up and dance like a headless chicken when the time comes to stop animating. Also wouldn't mind if at the same time the vocal chords started doing tribal chants high-pitched-bee-gees-stayin'-alive style. Bottom line, I'm not the body in the same way electricity isn't a waffle iron.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OCAjmuA1HDk

I wonder, do you think the devil or Jesus lead you to this sight?    I believe Jesus walked this earth.  I believe that the bible is in most part a teaching tool.  To teach us to be good and kind to others.   I also believe that fear was used to convince us that there was only one way to heaven.

I know that there is a Heaven of sorts, not so much like that of the biblical account and the reason I believe that is because my fiance and I were in a terrible accident and he was killed.   And with that death became my search for life after death.  Mainly because I wasn't going to let death separate us.  And because he speaks to me and because he predicts certain events before they happen,  I know he has truly lived past his physical body.   I could give you a hundred accounts of my knowing things I could not possibly know, but you will say it is the devil speaking to me to fool me. 

I think you must believe in the after life, because you certainly seem to believe in the devil.   

I have no fear of death.  I welcome it when it is my turn to go, because my honey is there, my family is there, my spirit family is there and I believe that many many good souls are there....and that includes Jesus and many other great teachers of life and lessons.  I hope you find some answers, because until you believe good will overcome any evil, you will live with fear, and with that fear, the devil lives with you. 

Chantilly Chopper

Is this a reply to me?

I believe the bible was written by man.

man writing the bible = I don't believe that crap.

Oh you can say it was "inspired" by God as much as you want....

I am far more accepting of we ourselves are all God way before accepting a single omnipotent force. No offense really intended to those that believe in this God / devil combination. If that works for you and get's you through life then it doesn't matter whether it is true or not....to you. It matters to me though. Faith is not an option. Truth, proven scientific facts are all that I can trust.

A medium told me two things she couldn't possibly know and the possibility that they were guesses is very rare. Still....

The information given to me was within my own mind. Perhaps sucked from my own mind. - I hope this is not true.

Perhaps we are all just hard drives and when we die the data is still there, stored on the hard drive even though it has no power and mediums can connect to this powerless thought. My what a horrible thought. I do hope this is not true.

Perhaps the medium did contact her. She would have done anything to contact me. She wants to help me, I know she does. She wants me to live my life. Well, At this point I cannot really live and enjoy my life without more information. I need the deceased to confirm that everything where SHE exists is ok. I need to know if she could contact the pets. I need to know If I can. You don't understand how badly I need this information. I cannot blindly accept anything. I need my mother.

About "fooled by the power of demons":
This argument isn't applicable, as it doesn't contain informations how to discern the truth from possible demons' cons. Now, if someone states to have a recipe to find out what's true and what's illusion, this one could as well be part of the demons' conspiracy. Everything could. You see, it leads to nothing. You have to go with your own sense not so much of what is "true" or "demons' fake", but what is good and what is bad.

Spooky

To be honest it's very unlikely that at least a part of most of us is not scared at the prospect of death.

To speak for myself - i've had meditative experience that suggests that what watches through 'me' is not of my body, or even individual, and is infinitely loving. It's hugely re-assuring. On the other hand there's an everyday part of me that most certainly is despite this deep knowing to say the least 'nervous'.  :)

Viewed metaphysically that's pretty inevitable unless you are fully realised/have fully transcended identification with body and individuality as 'self'. Even if you have i think i've quoted before the famous Zen master who when asked what death was like said (approximately) 'better go ask a dead guy'.

To build on this. The words of the Bible (and not everybody would accept it as literal truth anyway) are very often open to very different and even multiple level interpretations.

The one  the church has publicly taught - which has very often suited its own view and ends - can be said  at best to be simplistic.

'Christ' is to many an aspect of pure loving conciousness or mind that incarnated in the purest of forms as a great teacher on earth. That's not to say it was the only time, or that it's not around all the time to varying degrees - it's inherent in all of us, but is only manifested inasmuch as we have awakened to love.

Christ's 'return' can be read much less literally than the church tended to do - as the point when all beings in this reality as a collective whole have returned to the state of pure loving Christ consciousness that prevailed prior to our separation from God.

Viewed from this perspective the ego or fear inspired but mistaken belief system that gives rise to the perception of a 'self' existing in this reality is unreal, and cannot survive.

Even viewed from the perspective of self it seems not to survive death (otherwise lots would surely be reborn with the same personalities), and it can't survive the return to Christ consciousness because there is no place for a fear inspired belief system in the Christ consciousness.

In more finite terms Buddhism teaches that in the afterlife we separate from the ego/personality, most of which is destroyed - what continues and is reborn seems to be some sort of archetype/set of tendencies.

So maybe there's an alternative 'view' (perception of the nature of things) that at least allows us to see that what we deep down know and feel is very probably true.

On the other hand if you fervently believe that existence is based solely on the body and thinking mind there's maybe a lot less that's encouraging about the prospect of survival around.

How can the typical person be anything but somewhat nervous of such wholesale change and loss of selfhood?  The best that's available to us is the deeply felt 'knowing' that strengthens with spiritual work and experience, but in the end we're left with little option but to trust that all will be well.

To joke a little. I guess even if we are in our beliefs led astray by 'demons' (and i'm quite sure that most of what we theorise involves plenty of wishful thinking and hoping that 'self' survives) at least the non-physical existence of demons or other less realised entities suggests at least that there are at least ways of existing beyond the body....

I don't know about the 'evil beings' part..., but I have a relative who is a buddhist and who firmly believes that after death she will go into a deep sleep. "It's just like sleep" she insisted at one point.

Actually, she's changing her tune now. I don't know why.

But, at the time, my immediate impression was to tell her, "Well, don't be surprised if someone wakes you up." I mean, whoever gave anyone the impression that a human being ever gets to sleep for very long, anyway? Does that really happen?


QuantumSoul wrote on Sep 22^nd, 2009 at 12:07am:

Hello all, new here. I believe I may have been conditioned by Christianity beyond repair. It says in the Bible that there is no consciousness after death. We all "sleep" until Jesus returns. There is nobody and nothing that can convince me that Jesus never existed, I believe Jesus/Horus was based on a historical person, but Christianity frightens me in some ways. Can you guys please share with me the reason(s) you're so confident about life after death and you're not being fooled by any "evil beings"? I'd like to just add that when I was 12 I was clinically dead and I experienced nothing but blackness. No NDE or anything like that. Thoughts?

I guess B2 that one of the definitive sources of (in this case Tibetan) Buddhist teaching on the afterlife is the Tibetan book of the dead - it's very specific (but possibly quite allegorical, i don't know) on the various steps.

Another Tibetan teaching that focuses more on teaching themes (but is built around the view that life, death  and afterlife comprise a cycle we are stuck in until we transcend it) is the 'wheel of existence', a graphical depiction of the cycle of death and re-birth, and of many of the factors that determine our path: http://www.religionfacts.com/buddhism/symbols/wheel_of_life.htm

From the link:

The Tibetan Wheel of Life symbolizes the Buddhist perspective on life and contains within it numerous symbols of Buddhist themes and teachings.

The creature who turns the wheel of life and holds it in his clutches is Yama, a wrathful deity and the Lord of Death. (you might say a representation of a personified version of the collective ego - V) Yama symbolizes the inevitability of death, samsara and the impermanence of all things. (in this reality)

This does not lead to hopelessness, though, because outside of the wheel stands the Buddha, who points the way to liberation (symbolized by the moon).

The inner circle of the wheel contains symbols of the three root delusions: hatred (snake), ignorance (rooster), and greed (pig).

The ring around the center represents karma, with the figures on the left ascending to higher realms of existence because of virtuous actions, and the figures on the right descending to lower realms of existence because of evil or ignorant actions.

The middle ring of the wheel (the areas between the spokes) symbolizes the six realms of existence. The top half, from left to right, portrays the three higher realms of existence: humans, gods, and demi-gods. The lower half shows the three lower realms of existence: animals, hell-beings, and hungry ghosts.

The outer ring represents the 12 links of dependent origination, as follows:

   1. Just to the right of the top is a blind man with a cane, representing ignorance of the true nature of the world.
   2. Moving clockwise, a potter molding a pot symbolizes that we shape our own destiny with our actions through the workings of karma.
   3. The monkey climbing a tree represents consciousness or the mind, which wanders aimlessly and out of control.
   4. Consciousness gives rise to name and form, which is symbolized by people traveling in a boat on the river of life.
   5. The next link is an empty house, the doors and windows of which symbolize the developing sense organs. Buddha noted six senses: sight, smell, taste, hearing, touch and thought.
   6. The six senses allow us to have contact with the world, which is symbolized by lovers embracing.
   7. From contact arises feelings, which we categorize as pleasant, unpleasant, or neutral. Feelings are represented on the wheel as an arrow piercing the eye.
   8. From feelings arises desire or attachment to pleasant feelings and experiences, symbolized by a couple falling in love or a man drinking alcohol.
   9. Desire or attachment leads to grasping for an object of desire, symbolized by a monkey picking fruit.
  10. From grasping arises existence, represented by a man and a woman making love.
  11. Existence culminates in birth (entry into the human realm), which is symbolized by a woman in childbirth.
  12. Birth naturally leads to aging and death, which is symbolized by an old man carrying a burden.

Hi Quantum. At a more practical level one means of dealing with anxiety is to sit with it - to meditate, and rather than in a sense suppressing, hating or mentally trying to ignore what we fear to connect in a more open way with the reality of the experience that it is. To 'make friends with it'.

In my own case i had serious health problems which as well as being a threat in their own right caused major career and financial worries. Over the years I developed this very unpleasant and almost painful knot in my solar plexus, my gut was a mess and everything just looked grey.

It took several months, but eventually this whammo insight hit me while meditating to the effect that my problem was artificial. The pain in my gut wasn't actually that bad, my situation right then was basically OK, i was getting hung up about what were only possibilities, and whatever would be would anyway be.

In a sense the knot in my gut was triggering 'worry about worry', and i was getting sucked into the whole vicious circle.

My experience was that all the great load of fear fell away from me with that insight, and over a period of months the feeling of being stressed (for no very conscious reason) slowly evaporated.

Even if you don't meditate it can help enormously to lightly go more deeply into the topic that is bothering you. To contemplate death (that's not to think obsessively about it), especially with the assistance of teaching that provides a practical view (e.g. even a very accessible treatment like that of Sogyal Rinpoche in his Tibetan Book of Living and Dying) very quickly leads us to some fairly basic conclusions  - like for example it's inescapable so there's no point getting bothered about it, but that on the other hand all the signs are that we continue in one form or another.

Also that when we do engage with the topic we find that there's a lot we can do in this life to achieve a lot more equanimity about death, and to make the prospect and the actual transition a lot less frightening.

It's a bit like getting all bothered about something we fear like making a speech, only to find that when we engage by preparing ourself that (a) with this work much of the fear is shown to be irrational and even if it doesn't evaporate it reduces to manageable levels, and (b) that the reality is anyway nothing like what we imagined, and maybe even a bit of an exciting adventure.

It's so easy to get into a situation where far from worrying about realistic possibilities we instead have got conditioned to respond to some cue that kicks us off when we become even peripherally aware of it - irrespective of logic or of the reality, in that we go from peripheral awareness to reaction without awareness of deciding to do this, and certainly without any conscious or mindful thought. Like the knot in my gut, which in the end was only a knot in my gut that bore little or no relationship to the reality of my life situation.

Yet i'd fed it energy and habit until all it needed was the lightest awareness of it to in a reflex action cue this enormous ball of unthinking and irrational fear - which in turn made the knot worse than before.....

Eckhardt Tolle refers to this as a pain body, Tibetan Buddhism might call this particular aspect of ego a 'demon' we've created through our imaginings, and by pouring mind energy into it. It's not real, but it sure as hell has power - this is arguably in the end the root of all illness.

Tibetan Buddhism uses the practice of Chod to help people deal with their gods (craving they have built into problems), and their demons. Tsultrim Allione is a western lady who has written in very accessible terms about this, and provides very simple and practical methods of dealing with our fears. Here's her audio book on the topic named 'Cutting Through Fear' : http://www.amazon.com/Cutting-Through-Fear-Tsultrim-Allione/dp/159179403X

Another very accessible writer on dealing with fear (what the spiritual path is all about) is Pema Chodron. She's all over Amazon, but here's a CD: http://www.namsebangdzo.com/From_Fear_to_Fearlessness_Pema_Chodron_p/12219.htm

Wonderful comments, Vajra. I cannot really reply competently except to say that I agree wholeheartedly with the notion that 'framing' of emotion is very important. For instance, one can become very obsessed with the physical condition of the body, or become accustomed to ignoring it as much as possible. Perhaps, at times, it is simply good to have a 'healthy curiosity' about such things, and to continue to encourage that, rather than framing it in words like 'fear' or

OH MY GOD I'M GONNA DIE

or

OH MY GOD I MUST BE DEAD

I can only imagine what I might say if I found myself in some kind of endless, everlasting darkened room. I did wake up in one -- while asleep -- one time. But I found a way out of it, and there was not only light but there were friends just at the end of the hallway.

Exactly B2, the Buddhist terms that the describe the sort of grasping way of engaging with thoughts or events that cue our fears are attachment, aversion and ignorance - the root of all suffering, and in fact in the end the basis of this seeming reality.

Attachment means fearfully clinging to what we're convinced we need or must retain - either 'things' in physical life, or prejudiced perceptions or beliefs that cause us to draw mistaken conclusions in mind terms.

Aversion means fearfully doing everything we can to avoid the same - be they internal (mind based) or external seeming realities as above.

Ignorance leads to both - as a result of so to speak poor mental 'hygiene' - this in turn the result of wrong views that cause us to think and do what causes us suffering, to not know how to live, to not know how to handle our minds (so we gain wisdom and compassion) to reduce this suffering...

Another way of putting it is that we need to get back into the 'now', in that in our usual fearful and agitated state we almost always draw rigid but inaccurately negative (or inaccurately rose tinted) conclusions from our past experience, and habitually then look for cues to justify applying these mis-preconceptions when we try to predict the future in an attempt to  stay out of trouble.

The problem is that these conclusions and predictions are inevitably fear based and ego driven, and blind us to the reality of life and other people and beings that is straight in front of us in the now, in the moment.

An example might be a (fear inspired) prejudice that causes us to act badly towards people of another race or nationality. Or animals. 'All ....-ians are nasty and dangerous', or 'all dogs want to bite me' or 'animals are inferior and so deserving of the worst possible treatment' or 'the law is fair' are patently untrue positions, but positions that many by their actions can be seen to buy into.

Worse still when we act towards others out of these mind made but actually mistaken unreal prejudices they are reinforced because the resulting aggression,  fear and mistakes trigger similar responses in others.

So we feel justified in our mistaken view - when in reality had we managed a fresh and true view of e.g. the other person we would have seen that they were deserving of love - and they would have responded in kind.

This is one meaning of realisation, or of spiritual awakening - coming into the ability to see people, beings and things as they really are - as perfect and deserving of love.

This might not seem so important, but the opposite is the case. The eternal 'now' is the only true reality, the place where God is, the place where love is - but most of us are so caught in past and future imaginings (that seem much more real to us) that we cannot even see it.

All else is delusion. Fear begets fear and aggression, and love begets love. These are simultaneously existing realms, both  are to us self justifying, but only the latter is real.

Fear of death, or of anything else (and it's damn hard to get to genuinely getting past this fear) is only the result of our buying the fear based line of ego - which sees the death of the physical body as the end. When we buy this line the resulting angst blocks the possibility of our connecting with love and higher knowing.

Our task is to become able to look beyond the ego inspired line to higher realities - which when we find the courage (as well as the wisdom and compassion) to act on them seem inevitably to prove true, and to bring joy and release.

Pardon the length again, but this stuff is practically applicable and for real....

QuantumSoul wrote on Sep 22^nd, 2009 at 1:17am:

Vee wrote on Sep 22nd, 2009 at 12:43am: It's interesting that your brain recorded memories while you were in blackness and clinically dead, dear one. It might be helpful, I don't know, to mention that when we die, we can lose the heartbeat and be clinically dead, but our energy field is still in the body, and you don't let go of your body until your energy field has dropped free of it for the last time. I have watched people and pets in the death process, and after the heartbeat is gone and they are declared dead, I can still see the energy field as it slowly, over minutes or longer, leaves the body. You can see when it is gone, the bright colorful lights vanish at last and sometimes the clear visual outline of the person's facial structure finally vanishes. Your energy field must have been well in possession of your body while you were clinically dead, and you had apparently not left your body behind at all. There is definite advantage in learning to watch energy fields, even in the most basic way, as it allows you to know when someone or a pet has truly "passed."I do recommend, if you do not practice this skill, to start simple exercises to spot this beautiful evidence of life beyond the physical. You can start by placing a green plant in front of a cream-colored wall. Sit and watch the plant, eventually you will thrilled and surprised to see flashes of green lights splashing around between the branches and leaves and around the outline of the plant. Then you can move on to see energy fields in other ways...watch the top of a tree-covered mountain and stand out side watching the beautiful "waltz" of the massed energy fields of millions of trees all flashing their life-light together way up there, in a true orchestra of green disco color, as it moves up and down and back and forth across the mountain top. It's not hard at all, it just takes a little time and attention now and then. Best of luck in your searching journey...it's so exciting and stimulating. Vee I don't doubt that's what you see, but some would argue you're being fooled by the power of demons.

Maybe Demons have eternal Life.....so why not us???
Anyway Demons only exist in the fantasy concepts of ignorant religious conditioning.Your pathway to freedom is the fact that you are now questioning your conditioning...One of the most beautifull sayings presumably said by Christ Jesus was .."Seek and ye shall find....ask and it will be given to you." also "knock and the door will be opened for you "
When I was young I never forgot that and as I grew older I seriously and earnestly began to ask and knock and seek...All of my seeking was after many years  rewarded.I found the answers that have given me peace ,tranquility and LOVE.
Keep knocking ,keep seeking you will be rewarded.
But be prepared to drop all of your past concepts and conditioning.
Love Devayan

Just my little snippet of advice - do read the Bhagavad Gita; & generally take in a wider form of 'religious" literature.

BTW, I had to be placed under anaesthetic once, & really looked forward to being out of body- but I (like you) experienced just the "black sleep". HOWEVER, I had been out of body many times before that occasion, & also many times after it.. . . . I think the trauma of being ill & passing out often knocks one's true self, the conscious being, "out" for a while, but one slowly comes round again, like waking from a deep sleep.

And I agree, too, that you often experience what you expect  to experience after discarnating.  (As an aside, if you think there is nothing but the "black sleep" after death, what is actually so terrifying about that?  In that world view, you won't be around to experience it, will you?)

But, as someone wisely remarked, you're as dead now as you'll ever be! 8-)

If I may add my two penneth regarding the demon angle...

I believe that the terms 'angel' and 'demon' are relative terms - an indication of where you are on the 'love scale'.For example at the lowest end of spiritual development fear and hatred reign with no love for any body or anything.Slightly higher up the scale a very limited love reigns - maybe for a very restricted racial or national identity but none for anyone outside those tight boundaries.Higher up again at the  mid-point most people reside (I would place myself here but i'm trying !).We have love (much of the time) for many people but to some degree it is still conditional on their behaviour and it may be withheld from say people who hurt us or others such as criminals.Skipping to the highest (God?) level - love is totally unconditional and does'nt have to be deserved at all and love is just the way it is - nothing more or less.

Now from my midpoint viewpoint a 'demon' is someone lower down the 'love scale' and an angel is someone further up.From the perspective of someone more advanced than me I am a 'demon'.

My point is this : do you want to know if someone is a 'demon' or an 'angel' test them on the love scale. If the entity tells you are worthless and undeserving or need to exact revenge from your mid-range persepective it is a 'demon' and they may not be helpful to your evolution. If on the other hand it tells you are loved, does'nt impose its will on you, suggests forgiving someone and we are all one anyway then its an 'angel' and may help you on your journey.

In other words if it moos, produces cow's milk and eats grass its probably a cow....

Dave

wrote on Sep 24^th, 2009 at 7:12pm:

Ignorance leads to both - as a result of so to speak poor mental 'hygiene' - this in turn the result of wrong views that cause us to think and do what causes us suffering, to not know how to live, to not know how to handle our minds (so we gain wisdom and compassion) to reduce this suffering...

Hey, Vajra, what do you suggest is the best practical way to improve the mental 'hygiene'? Just meditate? Or do you need to do some psychological conditioning? Was just wondering. :)

I'd say that's a reasonable take on angels and demons Heisenberg. Put in other language it seems there are two extremes of beings - those that act to manifest love (under the guidance of Spirit), and those that manifest fear and are driven by ego.

There's no in-between, in that while we may hop between states you can't manifest love while driven by fear. (and ego)

The difference though is that those manifesting love are fuelled by an inexhaustible higher energy and power, while those manifesting fear are cut off from this higher source and prey on others (and ultimately on themselves) in a misguided attempt to survive.

It seems though that viewed from the personal-human-ego perspective of self-hood that there are more powerful beings that have grown larger than the average 'me' even on the demon side, and that if we try to play them at their own game (aggression etc) that we cut off our access to love and will lose.

By mental hygiene Ally i just mean the sort of uncontrolled, illogical and almost random mental cacophony that goes on in most of our heads - e.g the way so much of our thought is reactive, so much of our logic acts to make us always 'right' regardless of the reality of a situation. ( :) as the young wife said: 'i married mr. right, i just didn't realise that it was all the time')

The problem with this is that it leads us into all sorts of boobs and mistakes - while all the while we are sure we are being rational and logical. In the meantime the mental noise shuts out the voice of Spirit, our higher intuition if you like - and so we are deprived of guidance/knowing. With the result that we thrash round in circles causing suffering to ourselves and others, with little or no consciousness or awareness of our actions and their effects.

The point of meditation is that that it trains and quietens the mind - i mentioned before the Buddhist teaching of the mud and silt (out of control thought) settling in the glass of water that has been stirred.

With this quieting (which is very obvious for many when they start to meditate) also comes an opening to Spirit and higher awareness, as well as a sense of well being...

With this combination of more selfless rationality and access to higher intuition (and of course other training and life experience) the mind becomes a tool that can effectively be used in life to help us to live with wisdom and compassion - so that the suffering we cause for ourself and others is minimised....

The bottom line is I really need to find my own proof, something I can really believe and trust so I can live my life.... just like my dead friend supposedly said to the medium. She told me she said she wants me to live my life. I am not living. I am struggling. Please

Please guys.

I am here for help

Help me. I love you.

I hope i'm not being insensitive Terethian, and i feel for your situation, but the  bottom line seems to be that there is no absolute proof of what happens after death - basically because there's nothing available that constitutes scientific or the sort relative, physically based and external stuff most of us consider as objective 'proof'.

Even if we get what's in intellectual terms fairly convincing external feedback e.g. like when a psychic tells us stuff he/she should not know  - we end up second guessing it: 'she must be reading my mind'.

There's only one route to equanimity, joy and well being, and that's via opening to Spirit. For most of us (except a very few who have reached this point through life experience) this requires calming the mind, and again for most of us the only means to accelerate this process is via meditative technique, and the wiser and more compassionate view this and the development of a more grounded view of the nature of our reality permits.

There's no guarantee this will deliver anything anytime soon (or even for a long time), it depends on so much on stuff we don't know.

This is why i've been thumb nailing blocks of teaching i've benefited from in this and other threads. There is no solution possible to your problem in external world as we perceive it, only as a result of going inwards.

Eckhardt Tolle tells the story of the beggar who has been sitting on an old box begging in the street for years. He asks a man for a coin, but the man says he can't give him money because he has none - but says he can show him something much more valuable. He asks him to look in the box,  which turns out for all those years to have been full of gold...

Spiritual opening is a catch 22 problem. If we knew what was there to be found if we worked seriously to find a way into the box (aka a dramatically different  internal landscape) - then we'd be hugely motivated to search. But because we can't conceive the wealth of well being and joy that's available from in there we don't see the point in truly taking a look.

So we end up stuck like the beggar - fruitlessly and rather desultorily looking for solutions outside of ourselves - compulsively going through the same old failed motions in the external world, but not realising that we keep on applying the same old failed game plan. The money, the security, the car - or for those of us a bit more sophisticated the 'spiritual proof' we are seeking in the world of external experience.

A board like this where there's lots of intellectual chat can become a substitute for self work, but actually it by agitating and intensifying thinking minds can have the opposite effect in many. In a few others just the right insight can tip us over the edge into real opening.

Another very well known teaching - it's easy to end up looking at the pointing finger, and not seeing the moon. To mistake the words for the state of being they point to.

What can become available with self work and spiritual opening (again no promises, it can be a very long road - and striving after objectives is counterproductive) with the flashes of equanimity and joy i've mentioned is an increasingly deeply held and intuitive knowing that there is more - probably not even in terms you can ever express verbally or to another person. 

It's by definition subjective, not objective - and our whole approach to proof in this day and age requires that it be external and objective to be credible. While rationality and logic have their place, we 're now talking of territory (the matter of truly 'knowing') where it's an increasingly less important ingredient in the mix (with intuition), and one that becomes an impediment in itself if over relied upon.

A big part of the affair is in the end the letting go of our need for certainties - of our attempts to control existence (that's not ceasing to operate as a wise and compassionate person, only the letting go of our attachment or fear that the outcome we usually mistakenly want will not materialise) - as a result of snippets of experience moving us into a state of trusting that will be all right.

All is all right if we can just engage with and feel what the 'flow' is, and in a sense stop meddling inappropriately.

Because the task is not to do or to achieve anything, the task is to let go, to trust in Spirit, to do what comes naturally (intuitively) and let it get on with what it knows best. This can't really happen until it's become real for us - no amount of wanting can make a blind bit of positive difference. (the opposite in fact)

The phrase 'state of being' is very important - it's not at all the same thing as intellectualising about stuff, or acting out, or 'believing'. Knowing (and it's often pretty tentative) follows from experience, and not from belief.

For most of us there's no instant cure for the angst inherent in our existence in what we perceive as this self in this world. There can be no promise even that self work will produce less suffering before joy, indeed in many its effect after an initial lightening (maybe much like smoking weed) can be that with the quieting of the mind and the resulting turning down of the volume of the masking noise produced by our coping strategies (like suppression, denial, selective perception, the pursuit of power and material wealth etc - which at best only produce a temporary ersatz sort of happiness) we are with clearer seeing faced with the true painfulness of our existence.

It's not for nothing the term warriorship is often used to describe the resolve it takes to persevere with this path...

You're probably wondering T what the hell he's (i'm) on about.... :)

From my perspective-

I set out about 20 years ago to find out if there was anything more than our physical bodies after being particularly upset at the death of my Grandmother.Being a 'left-brain' type I read everything I could on the subject (before the internet).I can relate to Bruce Moen in his reluctance to accept evidence as 'valid' evidence.

In my case it was just a process of slow increments of 'probably is'nt' to 'almost definitely is' where the chances of all the evidence being fabricated or misconstrued become ever more unlikely; indeed refusing to accept it eventually became highly irrational to me personally.There was'nt a single 'smoking gun' ah-ha moment rather a mounting weight of evidence (scientific and personal)tipping the balance point that the current accepted scientific paradigm is incomplete (which history should teach us anyway).

I think knowing there is more than mainstream scientists accept frees you to get more out of this life (I think the 'Afterlife' is a misnomer there is only life...)


some links for hors d'oeuvre !:

www.victorzammit.com (case for afterlife)
http://www.thescoleexperiment.com/
http://www.windbridge.org/ (builds on Gary E. Schwartz's work)
http://www.deanradin.com/ (author of excellent book The Conscious Universe)

The above is just a snapshot of the huge resources now available on the subject.

I agree with you, heisenberg, there is only life. The veil between Here and There is very, very thin indeed. Vee

T-

I sympathize with your fears about death.

Two suggestions:

1.  The more time you spend helping others, the less time you'll be preoccupied with thoughts of death.  The reason is (and I'm not trying to be insensitive), your obsession with death is really not the problem. 

The real problem is that you're too preoccupied with yourself.  Take the spotlight off of yourself by putting it, or at least part of it, on others.  You'd be surprised how effective it will be.

2.  Whenever you find yourself with fears about death, substitute those thoughts with a genuine thankfulness for the fact that you are alive and are blessed with the magnificent gift of consciousness. 

I realize right now you equate consciousness with fear, but having thoughts of gratitude for the fact that you are YOU, an eternal Being who is loved by God, will slowly but surely remove your fears.

Remember, thoughts are things.

R

To pitch it another way Terethian: it's easier to wear sandals than it is to cover the whole world in shoe leather. (old saying)

Applied to the topic of death and what we're trying in our various ways to say here: what needs to change is not the nature of life, or of the external world/existence - the way to transcending the these fears is to change our view.

'View' in this case being the way we perceive the nature of existence, and life - and this is a matter of going inward and working with our mind. Our untrained perceptions generally don't stand up very well when we examine them.

Vee's point about life for example - just to get to the point of knowing that this is likely the case in a very 'felt' sense from experience backed up by teaching can only be a hugely liberating shift.

Likewise Rondele's point about self absorbtion. That's not a criticism, rather the suggestion that while we're like almost everybody else stuck with the feeling that 'I' can only survive if I live physically death can only be a horrendous prospect.

Yet the experience of being an individual physical me is only the result of a particular way of looking at things. The development of an alternative view can again only be very liberating - for example that the real me behind this is a non physical entity that cannot die - even if it can't ultimately deliver total certainty in the terms of what the scared physical me right now would claim to want. (but bear in mind that no matter what you give it it will find ways to second guess the evidence)

The problem in the end is that it's the previous catch 22 problem. While we're in 'me' mode we can perceive only a certain threatening sort of reality. Yet as if by magic if we work our way past these beliefs through the calming effects of meditation, teaching and higher knowing then 'hey presto' - new and more benign takes on reality slowly open up before us.

But as above - the fear based 'me' reality or set of beliefs excludes us from perceiving them before start. Basically because mind is wired so that we perceive what we believe. 'Opening' means shedding layers of belief, passing through successive 'veils' that prevent our seeing.  :) We literally move into new worlds and new realities with new knowings...

Here's a very much trimmed down version of the video I shared before. Just 6 minutes long, if you decide to watch it in its entirety, please share your thoughts.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PQfLAuvw9Bw

And also, to whoever mentioned how Jesus said to thief that he would be with him "that day" in Heaven, it tries to explain that away by a misunderstanding of a placement of a comma.

I am starting to feel afraid and obsessed with my fear of death and ceasing to exist....again...

I am not feeling good at all.

:'(

Terethian,

I suspect you feel that way because so many New Agers here just cite chapter and verse and refuse to examine the devastating contradictions among various astral adepts.  "Just trust your own experience," they whisper as they whistle past the graveyard.  Let's start with one fascinating fact that might favor skepticism.  Brain specialist, Dr. Jil Bolte Taylor, recently wrote a ground-breaking book about her stroke called "My Stroke of Insight."  It makes compelling reading about the terrifying process by which the mind gradually loses one function after another until it can no longer think in any meaningful sense of the term despite still being conscious.  At the point where only her right cerebral hemisphere was functional, she experienced a powerfully blissful oneness with the universe in which she lost all sense of time and lived in the eternal now (nirvana).  But this is merely a symptom of the left brain's loss of its function, not "higher knowledge" of a lofty encounter with the ultimate.  It can best be explained by neurological irregularites during right brain dominance.  Still, Dr. Jill had to fight hard not to be seduced by this misleading sense of oneness and focus all her dwindling energy on restoring some left brain function.  This is the only book written by a brain specialist who describes accurately and in great detail the brain's progressive loss of function from a major stroke.  Only the expert guidance of doctors and her mother's determined support empowers Jill to gradually restore most of her  normal brain function after life-threatening surgery.  We who pursue afterlife evidence must first  grapple with the case for extinction, especially the brain's defense mechanism of deep peace to blunt the journey to the brain's loss of function.

Don

Don,

That sounds like a fascinating book, however you should also look at both sides of the brain issue.  Either the brain itself causes thought or it is like a receiver of thought (like a radio).

Karl Lashley did certain gruesome yet pioneering experiments with mice to localize certain memories in them.  He would teach them how to run a maze to get food.  Then, he would take a heat probe and burn away certain parts of their brain, and let them rerun the maze.  He expected to find the location of the maze memory and be able to expunge it by frying the brain.  He tried many conventional areas associated with memory, but to his amazement, found that the mice could still run the maze, even when he had burned away first specific and then large amounts of the total brain.  (He knew this because he carefully compared the mice before running the maze, clocked their time and then had clocked them after learning the route of the maze).

Lashley's conclusion, which stand in physiology to this very day,  was the idea that memory of the maze was distributed across the entire cortex of the mouse brain rather than localized to one pinpoint area. 
He came up with two priniciples by 1950:  The principle of "mass action" stated that the cerebral cortex acts as one—as a whole—in many types of learning. The principle of "equipotentiality" stated that if certain parts of the brain are damaged, other parts of the brain may take on the role of the damaged portion.

I have seen stroke patients with either right or left cerebral dysfunction, and while there are some general findings depending on the location of the brain infarct, there is a wide range of variability here.  Some people show little or no dysfunction with the same injury, and others are devastated and unable to move or function at all. 

The idea that a blissful oneness is therefore a protective mechanism of an injured brain is one woman's conjecture about her experience but by no means a universal reproducible state.  The more one sees patients with brain injuries, the more one realizes that the brain does not create thought in discreet areas.  To use the analogy of a radio receiver, (which I prefer but can not prove) if I damage certain parts of the radio, I may get different results - I may lose the treble or bass contribution, or create static, or other audio effects.  However it would be wrong of me to conclude that the radio itself was the originator of the radio signal. 

Matthew

Hi Don,

This really is interesting, just watched one of her videos, it's quite entertaining. I agree with Matthew, just wanted to throw this in;
Apparently she was braindead at some point but doesn't seem to remember anything that happened during that time, thus saying NDEs happen in the few seconds (in her case hours) before or after "death". Did she put it differently in the book? Apart from that I don't see anything contradicting the afterlife. Of course, being a brain scientist, she'll try to interpret what's going on. This might not be the perfect way to figure out how the brain works, but it's the best one she had.

have a nice day,
Vagabound

<<Terethian,

I suspect you feel that way because so many New Agers here just cite chapter and verse and refuse to examine the devastating contradictions among various astral adepts.>>

Don- Actually he probably is having a bit of fun at our expense.  He's been whining about this for a long time, we have given him specific recommendations on how to deal with his "fear", but he never responds to those recommendations.

Instead, he waits a while and then merely re-posts the same thing.  It's getting a bit tedious and way too predictable.

So, Terethian, you told us a month ago that you were going to produce a movie.  Here's what you said:

Ok so I am gonna die.

Yep.

I am going to film a short film in which I die from a car accident and then I somehow help my wife by connecting with her somehow. (maybe with a medium.)

I need some serious brainstorming! This is going to be really fun for me... - I can do green screen so I really WILL be in the afterlife... anything can happen.....

Let's hear your ideas! Everybody! What is the best way to go about this to make it "potentially" accurate

And, once again, people gave you feedback on this project.  So, it's been a month.....why don't you tell us how far you've come with this project?

You really need to do something useful with your time.  It might take your mind off of yourself.

R

My thoughts exactly, Rondele. Well said. Vee

That's friendly of you, Rondele.

Terethian, I enjoy your posts. I find them refreshing.

Quote:

He's been whining about this for a long time, we have given him specific recommendations on how to deal with his "fear", but he never responds to those recommendations.

Fighting fear is, even with the best advice, still hard to do. I've been working on it for over a year and every once in a while it still overwhelms me. I'm actually hoping that this will always be a place he can go to in these moments. Though of course I can understand that it is annoying to feel like your advice is not being appreciated.



Quote:

And, once again, people gave you feedback on this project.  So, it's been a month.....why don't you tell us how far you've come with this project?

Terethian, that sounds a bit like me; a week later it just doesn't seem to be such a great idea any more. Only few of my projects have survived. If that's the case here; the trick is; don't tell everybody at once, but a few people at certain stages, that way you keep getting feedback without annoying anyone. Feedback is important.

cheers,
Vagabound

Gosh, this language makes blissful oneness, or nirvana, or whatever you want to call it, sound just terrifying. It makes me feel like: don't go play in the street (nirvana) because you might get hurt...or stupid...or something.


Berserk2 wrote on Oct 28^th, 2009 at 1:35am:

Terethian, I suspect you feel that way because so many New Agers here just cite chapter and verse and refuse to examine the devastating contradictions among various astral adepts.  "Just trust your own experience," they whisper as they whistle past the graveyard.  Let's start with one fascinating fact that might favor skepticism.  Brain specialist, Dr. Jil Bolte Taylor, recently wrote a ground-breaking book about her stroke called "My Stroke of Insight."  It makes compelling reading about the terrifying process by which the mind gradually loses one function after another until it can no longer think in any meaningful sense of the term despite still being conscious.  At the point where only her right cerebral hemisphere was functional, she experienced a powerfully blissful oneness with the universe in which she lost all sense of time and lived in the eternal now (nirvana).  But this is merely a symptom of the left brain's loss of its function, not "higher knowledge" of a lofty encounter with the ultimate.  It can best be explained by neurological irregularites during right brain dominance.  Still, Dr. Jill had to fight hard not to be seduced by this misleading sense of oneness and focus all her dwindling energy on restoring some left brain function.  This is the only book written by a brain specialist who describes accurately and in great detail the brain's progressive loss of function from a major stroke.  Only the expert guidance of doctors and her mother's determined support empowers Jill to gradually restore most of her  normal brain function after life-threatening surgery.  We who pursue afterlife evidence must first  grapple with the case for extinction, especially the brain's defense mechanism of deep peace to blunt the journey to the brain's loss of function. Don

Nope.. I am making this video I just have not started yet. Been playing a lot of Everquest and working a lot at work....

In fact... I am super busy.....
Very occupied. I like what I do.

But I  NEED the answer to the ultimate question. I cannot and will not stop until I find the answer. I am not satisfied, and if the answer I find is that no afterlife exists I am not sure how I will react or what I will do, except attempt to live forever.

Yes, I am scared, terrified, freaking myself out.

The ONLY solution is for me to find proof of the afterlife that I can be certain of.

The alternative of no solution, no afterlife, will most likely result in complete chaos and loss of my mind.

Matthew,

Thanks for your post.  My point is this: deep down inside, we unconsciously recognize when we are striving for rationalization and comfort rather than breakthrough insights which can at times be painful.  The discoveries, insights, and contrary perspectives of those who know the most about the brain can infuse our quest with more integrity which, in turn, will increase the comfort we derive from the truly positive evidence for an afterlife. 

Don

I found this on http://www.bleepingherald.com/apr2008/taylor?page=0%2C0 (talking about "Stroke of Insight")


Quote:

We're tired of the incredible bipolarity of science saying the spiritualists are nuts, and the spiritualists are tired of the closed-mindedness of the scientists. We've got this incredible chasm going on. How about a little corpus collosum love! Let's get both hemispheres functioning and communicating in all of us so that we are open-minded and we are open-hearted because we're actually utilizing both hemispheres. People got stuck in these holes or these categories. The right hemisphere person grows up thinking, "Well, I'm more of a creative person, I can't handle that stuff because I'm not left brained" and the left brained kids grow up thinking "Oh, I'm not creative, I can't draw, I can't sit and create something new, I have no talent." People say these things and I'm thinking, "My God, who put you in that box!"  It's time to bust out of the box and decide we have a whole brain and it's a beautiful thing, and it's got these incredible tools...

take care,
Vagabound

Either way Like I keep saying as far as I can tell I DID get amazing results from my phone reading for a spiritual medium, but I am uncertain if I can say the results are enough evidence.

But as far as I can tell.... I have at the least received evidence that facts about a dead person were related to me from someone I do not know and did not leak any information to.

I am not certain where to take this in my mind as it is only one test, and any good scientist knows that one test is just not enough.

I think you will find T that as before there are no final answers to be found to the death and afterlife questions via the thinking mind - that it really doesn't matter what 'proof' comes it can always be second guessed by the mind.

That you are setting yourself up for a lot of grief if you buy into that particular strategy.

I'm not arguing for or against any particular set of beliefs, but there's a middle view that's been around in one form or another for millennia, and is most certainly not a recent 'new age' phenomenon.

I think it's fair to say too that the clinging to logical positivism and 'scientific logic' found in some circles (which is actually only one very narrow way of seeing  things) is just as limiting as the over the top 'wannabee/wannasee' emotionalism found at the other polarity....

Those who are interested may hear and see a talk
by Dr. Jill on TED.com.

Very interesting responses from everyone--special
thanks to Don and Matthew for their thoughts.