This is a response to Recoverer's post in my Gateway Experience Journals II thread regarding Salvia.

It is not uncommon for people to have the wrong impression of certain drugs, namely those of a psychoactive nature.  I mean, hey, they're illegal!  If it's illegal it must be bad!  HA.  This is simply a control tactic implemented by the government to keep us from doing anything they may not like, for example, in the case of psychedelic drugs, to keep us from possible discovering the true nature of ourselves and the illusion of our physical reality.  They certainly don't want us waking up the the truth!

However, it is erroneous to lump all drugs into the same group, for there are many different types, each with a different purpose and effect.  It is even misleading to claim that all psychedelics are the same, for they each have sometimes huge differences, as does the drug in question here, Salvia.  And it is important to realize that naturally occurring drugs can be beneficially used if done for the right reasons and not abused.  There is a reason why they are here and effect us the way they do, after all. 

My beliefs about psychoactive drugs, namely Salvia, are more than just beliefs- they are knowns- for I have first hand experiential knowledge of their nature.  These drugs offer a glimpse into the true multidimensional nature of our reality.  I feel I have a greater insight into the true nature of these trips, than does, say, an average joe with no spiritual explorational experience, as a result of my in depth nonphysical explorations in the dream state and out of body, for it is apparent that there are many similarities in the characteristics of these different types of experiences.

The fact of the matter is that you have no experience with Salvia, or any other psychedelics for that matter, and going by your opinion of the subject, it seems you have not done sufficient research into its effects, its history, its purpose, or the nature of the experiences it produces.  You are therefore unqualified and unable to make an accurate assessment on the matter.  I will go on anyhow.


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My feeling is that if you take a drug, your energy field will be weakened and it will become easier for an unfriendly spirit to invade you.

And my feeling is you have no idea what you're talking about!  Going by not only my own personal experience with Salvia, but the experiences of my close friends as well, I can say for certain that Salvia does not weaken one's energy field, but actually STRENGTHENS it!  The essence of my inner self comes to the forefront of my consciousness for hours, sometimes days after a Salvia experience.  This includes deep feelings of peace and oneness with the universe, an intensification and clarification of the senses, and a vivid, lucid-dream-type awareness.  It invokes a truly higher state of being, even after the drug has worn off.

Salvia has seemed to open a spiritual doorway within my one friend.  Since his initial experience with Salvia he has suddenly begun having intense spiritual experiences.  His meditations are deeper and more profound then ever before, he now has the ability to leave his body, which he couldn't do before, and he even had a telepathic experience in which he read his father's thoughts.  All this immediately following his Salvia experience.  My other friend believes that his consciousness has risen to a higher level since his initial experience with Salvia.  They both likewise experienced a truly higher state of being long after the drug wore off.  Salvia seems to awaken a latent spiritual aspect of one's self.


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Drugs take the place of neurotransmitters, and much of what you experience could be the result of altered biochemistry rather than something substantial.

Well then going by your line of thinking, nothing we have ever or will ever experience in our physical existence is "something substantial."  Everything we experience in this physical reality, whether it be our thoughts, our actions, our bodily functions, and even the environment we experience around us, has a biochemical reality within our bodies.  It seems you may need to rethink your definition of "substantial."  Even our nonphysical experiences have a biochemical reality within us.  Although taking psychedelic drugs produces these biochemical reactions rather than them happening "naturally" without the drug, the validity of the experience does not change- induced or not, it is just as real as anything else.  And when you realize that not only our entire being, but the entire universe, down to the smallest biochemical, IS consciousness, just different aspects of the same gestalt consciousness, then you see that all experiences are equally valid, whether they are attained by meditation, hemisync, psychotropic herbs, in dreams, ect... 

Salvia, like all other psychotropic herbs, grows naturally from the earth.  I believe there is a reason why it is here.  There is a reason why it causes such spiritual, life changing experiences.  That reason is to assist us, to aid us, in awakening to our true reality.  A gift from mother earth.


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Eventually a person will reach the point where he or she understands that what is available spiritually is so removed from what takes place with drug usage, that there is no way he or she would use a drug.

HA.  This statement is laughable.  What an extreme case of bias!  You have never even experienced Salvia!  Or any other psychedelic!  What makes you think you have any credibility in making this ascertainment?  What you will never understand, assuming that you will stick to your word not to try a psychoactive drug, is that the experiences induced by these drugs ARE spiritual in nature.  By reading my past experiences on Salvia, this is plain to see.  However, this type of knowledge must be experienced first hand, and being that you have cut yourself off from such experience, I suppose you will never truly know.


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know a man who had a marriage with a woman that was quite fine, until see took magical mushrooms. After doing so she became schizophrenic and wouldn't leave her bed. I know a man who took acid, had a bad experience, and ever since he has had physical problems. I know a man who knew all about the various psychotrophic drugs that exist, he even had a book published that explained how to use them. He used them in order to have spiritual experiences. He used to use his bath tub as an isolation chamber while tripping. One day he was found dead in his bath tub.

It is a shame that people you know have had such negative experiences with these drugs.  Which one had a negative experience with Salvia? 

But I can see why you are so biased regarding this topic.  However, I am convinced that there is absolutely nothing wrong with experimenting with these drugs if one goes about it with the proper precautions and is mentally and physically prepared.

For example, one should be mentally stable if they are to use such drugs.  A person with deep seeded psychological issues will most likely have a negative and possibly damaging experience, for their innermost self will be brought to the surface of their reality, and if that inner self is negative, then that is obviously a recipe for disaster.

As for acid, this is a drug not produced in nature.  It is obviously risky to consume anything created in a lab, for we are not meant to ingest artificial chemicals.  There is also a risk in taking natural drugs unless you grow them yourself, for you never know where they came from or what has been done to them.

And obviously one should choose the proper setting for having a psychedelic trip.  The bath tub is definitely not ideal if one's safety is concerned.

If I were to guess, I'd say your friend's wife either wasn't mentally stable from the getgo, perhaps had latent schizo, or maybe just at a bad batch of shrooms.

It seems your other friend took bad acid, or maybe he just had a bad reaction to "good" acid, which altered his physiology and caused his physical problems.

Your other friend obviously choose a dangerous place to trip, and payed the price.

If you will notice, however, none of these examples prove that one cannot expand their consciousness, access new dimensions of reality, and in general, benefit spiritually from the use of psychedelic drugs- these examples only prove that one must proceed with the upmost caution when doing so.


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I believe I would be insulting the grace that has come into my life if I resorted to taking psychotrophic drugs.

I like how you worded that.... if I resorted to using psychotropic drugs.  As if its one of the lowliest things to do.  Yet you are ignorant of the true nature of such drugs, and so this statement has no value.


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It is a mistake to take drugs because of what somebody such as Carlos Castaneda wrote. His stories are fictional,  he had a cult like following, and he was a womanizer.

Although he may have been writing fiction, his works are heavily laced with fact.  He did a great deal of research on shamanism and the nature of psychedelic experiences.  This is documented fact, and is apparent in his work.  His following and his personal habits have nothing to do with it.


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If drug usage is such a good thing, why did the hippy movement end in the manner it ended?

There are many factors as to why the hippie era ended, but it is important to realize that the hippie movement had a lot more to it than just taking psychedelics.  The illegalization of psychedelics certainly played a part, however.  And of course, the taking of psychedelics obviously has not ended. 


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But I guess some people will learn the hard way, while misleading others.

The ones who mislead are those who speak of what they don't truly know, are those who try to convert others beliefs while discouraging personal experiential knowledge, are those who focus on the negative aspects of something and block out the overwhelming positive aspects- and not just that, but distort the meaning of these negative aspects to fit their false belief system, for these same negative aspects, while seen with the unbiased, undistorted eye, do not even apply to the original false belief! ( In this case, taking examples of people who have used the drugs irresponsibly, or without being prepared in one way or another, or maybe just eating a bad batch of the drug, and using these examples to try to negate the reality and significance of the experiences that these drugs induce-it simply does not relate!  It relates even less when you realize none of these drugs are the drug in question-Salvia!-which, not to mention, has not caused one death, or any other type of damage.

Your opinions are based on fear, not experience.  It is difficult to learn and grow when one entertains false beliefs which block access to new areas of experience and knowledge.


In conclusion, we see that Recoverer, in his attempt to strip the significance and reality from my Salvia experiences, while simultaneously trying to dissuade others from exploring this wonderful avenue of self exploration/realization, with his biased, inexperiential, at times irrelevant propaganda, has failed.

I have no experience with Salvia. Until Dude mentioned it, I never heard of it.

When I was in the Army one of my roomates was a Navajo Indian, his father was a medicine man back on the reservation, and he used to send my roomate peyote. So I'll just say I'm not without psychotrophic experience.

That was 28 years ago. I just don't feel the need anymore.  I've learned that spiritual growth isn't about using techniques and consuming drugs. It's about getting over the limiting thought patterns that prevent us from growing and opening our hearts to divine grace. To suggest that we can't grow without taking drugs, is to suggest that we can't grow.

Perhaps for some people the consumption of psychotropic drugs helps them see that there is another way of viewing reality, but I know of so many people who have dabbled in psychotrophic drugs and they didn't manage to find a path that led to truth. They sure didn't develop discrimination. I don't see how drug consumption can help a person develop discrimination in a meaningful way.

Regarding Dude's claim that Salvia helps some people open to their spirit selves, the same can be said for other psychotrophic drugs, yet many people have had a negative experience with the same drug. I know more people that have done so than I mentioned. For example, I know a man who ended up in a mental hospital after taking LSD.  He experienced a state of being that had an incredible amount of fear. Years later he is still traumatized by his experience.

It seems to me that Dude has become a bit defensive about this. It as if somebody tried to take his toy away from him. How dare somebody have a different opinion than he. How dare somebody try to intefere with what the Jr. Shaman is trying to accomplish. He probably concluded that only an uptight inexperienced old dude could have such an opinion. Perhaps the fact of the matter is quite different.

But I won't debate the matter. If Dude wants to announce to the World that he believes drug usage is the way, that's his choice. There are people who know better. Perhaps someday Dude will know the same.

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I've learned that spiritual growth isn't about using techniques and consuming drugs. It's about getting over the limiting thought patterns that prevent us from growing and opening our hearts to divine grace.

It's true that dropping false beliefs and limiting thought patterns is probably the most important thing one can do to grow spiritually.  However, it is false to say that any other means of expanding ones consciousness and growing spiritually is pointless.  When one's reality is seen with the "ideal" belief system (one which allows maximum growth), it becomes apparent that there is more to reality than just our physical experience of it, and that there are various ways to explore this greater, inner universe.  The exploration of these inner dimensions can yield great knowledge not attainable physically, and further one's spiritual growth by leaps and bounds.  There are many aspects to the process of spiritual growth, not just one.


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To suggest that we can't grow without taking drugs, is to suggest that we can't grow.

I agree.  But to suggest that we can't grow by experiencing altered states of consciousness with the aid of natural hallucinogens is false.


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It seems to me that Dude has become a bit defensive about this. It as if somebody tried to take his toy away from him. How dare somebody have a different opinion than he. How dare somebody try to intefere with what the Jr. Shaman is trying to accomplish.

First I'd like to say that the toy thing and the Jr. Shaman remark made me laugh.

Second, I appear to be taking a defensive stance for several reasons.  One, you tried to negate my own personal experience with nothing to back it up.  You basically announced, "Dude's experiences are false and he is on the wrong path for choosing to have these experiences!"  I felt it necessary to reveal how misleading your post was, not just for me but for everyone.  Sort of how you tend to speak up against sources you think are misleading(only this time it was called for).

I feel you tried to insult me by putting down not only the use of psychedelics, but the users themselves.  You make it seem like only those desperate for spiritual experience will "resort" to using Salvia.  Of course, this is not the case.  The fact of the matter is that I simply chose an alternate route to explore my greater reality, just as valid as any other, to further my spiritual growth.  And guess what?  It is working!  Wow, you don't say.  I have not dropped everything else to embark on a shamanic journey.  I simply added a new aspect to my learning experience, added a new class to my spiritual curriculum. 


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But I won't debate the matter. If Dude wants to announce to the World that he believes drug usage is the way, that's his choice. There are people who know better. Perhaps someday Dude will know the same.

But, I am not announcing to the world that drug usage is the way.  What I am announcing is that it can be an aspect of The Way, if proceeded with the right intentions and precautions of course.  Those who "know better," by your standard, are those who are fearful and unknowledgeable.  What I do know is that Salvia has given me the first hand experience and knowledge of the true illusitory nature our reality and the Oneness of my consciousness with the consciousness of the universe.

Drugs isn't my way to my self. I could have written "Drugs aren't the way to OUR selves", but I like it better without the subltle love'n light control fluff. Though it isn't my way, I'm glad I've had my drug experieces, and if one wants to do it that's their own decision.

I don't want to have psychedelic experiences, but I saw quite a few youtube videos a while ago showing both good and bad salvia trips. Interesting. Many of the users, young incarnations, treated the drug with little or no respect; like bulls in a china shop. One gave salvia to a friend and didn't tell him 'til he started tripping. Funny and tragic at the same time. But users aside, the videos showed me that it is a very strong drug.

OutOfBodyDude, have you tried going to F27 or higher when using salvia?

Volu

No, I haven't.  My consciousness has been focused mainly in this reality when I was on Salvia.  I haven't tried to meditate with it as of yet, but I will, and when I do I will be sure to report what happens.  You can read my previous experiences with Salvia in Gateway Experience Journals.

Dude:

I appreciate that you're intent on growing spiritually, but I believe you're miguided if you believe that Salvia will play a substantial role.

That said, I believe it is great that you had an experience of your oneness with the universe, but do you really need Salvia to have such an experience? If we rush things with the wrong approach, there is a chance we won't achieve the balance we are looking for.

As I suggested earlier, perhaps it is useful to some people to use a psychotrophic drug because it helps them consider a new way of viewing reality. But with all the experiences you had before using Salvia, I don't understand why you need it.

Regarding my Junior comment, to be frank, sometimes your youth and the resulting lack of discrimination show. Who am I to tell you this? Who are you to play a role in getting people to read the likes of Seth and take salvia?

At least ways I'm trying to be responsible. Are you? Beyond what a few neat trips have told you, do you really understand the implications of taking a psychotrophic drug?

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I believe it is great that you had an experience of your oneness with the universe, but do you really need Salvia to have such an experience

I have had several true experiences of being consciously connected with all of creation.  These experiences have all been during projections to high planes.  But the experiences I had on Salvia were totally unique, for I experienced actually being these other consciousness which I am connected with.  Not only that, but these experiences occurred while focused in the physical plane.  This gave me a totally new perspective which the higher level projections did not provide.


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As I suggested earlier, perhaps it is useful to some people to use a psychotrophic drug because it helps them consider a new way of viewing reality. But with all the experiences you had before using Salvia, I don't understand why you need it.

Psychotropic drugs do more than just help one consider a new way of viewing reality- they let one experience, first hand, reality, from perspectives which give a whole new meaning to the self, life, the universe, and creation.  It is the experience that is important, and what is learned from it.  I don't need Salvia.  I don't need to meditate.  I don't need to have out of body experiences.  But the experiences had through these means allow me to gain new perspectives and insights and assist in my overall growth as a spirit and a physical being.


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Regarding my Junior comment, to be frank, sometimes your youth and the resulting lack of discrimination show. Who am I to tell you this? Who are you to play a role in getting people to read the likes of Seth and take salvia?

I am absolutely right in my questioning of who you are when you claim that my own experience is invalid, when you yourself have absolutely no experience with the subject matter.  Who am I to play a role in getting people to read Seth and take Salvia?  I am not trying to convince anyone to do any of that.  What I am doing is sharing the positive experiences I have had and the benefits I have received. 


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At least ways I'm trying to be responsible. Are you? Beyond what a few neat trips have told you, do you really understand the implications of taking a psychotrophic drug?

What it seems you are doing is playing a false role, the objective being to recruit people to your line of thinking, probably as a means to feel confident that your beliefs are sound.  All I am doing is sharing knowledge I have gained from personal experience.  Experience is the only way to truly know what something is about.  You seem to imply you understand the implications of taking psychotropic drugs and I don't, and yet it you have never even tried Salvia. 

Ill end my response with this: regardless what you have to say, the fact of the matter is Salvia has allowed me to reach unique states of consciousness I have never reached before, and my experiences in these states has added meaning to my life and has given me a more enlightened perspective of myself and my true relationship with the universe. 

Dude:

You can try to make me out to be the bad guy if you want to. I wasn't going to say anything until Ralph Buskey responded and said he's going to try Salvia. You responded to Ralph with apparently no consideration as to whether or not Salvia is a good thing for Ralph.

I doubt that Salvia is different than other psychedelics, including acid/LSD which comes from mold and therefore basically is just as natural as mescaline and psilocybin. Mold is not an artificial substance.

Don't assume that if you motivate people to take Salvia only people who can handle it will take it, because many people have taken psychedelic drugs who can't handle them.

I believe you would be hard pressed to find a light being who would recommend that a person incorporates drug usage into his or her spiritual practice.

When I speak of letting go of limiting ideas, I believe that taking care of our personality related issues is far more important than opening our mind so we can believe in things such as parallel universes. When a person learns about the value of letting go of limiting personality aspects, he or she will see that the effects of drug usage pails in comparison. This is true to such an extent, that he or she is bound to see that drug usage is completely unnecessary, and even inappropriate.

Don't try to play innoncent by suggesting that you aren't recommending drug usage to anybody, because you write your logs to share information with people, and drug usage has become a part of what you are sharing.

You spoke as if drug usage is a meaningful form of spiritual practice, and somebody disagreed with you. Nothing wrong with that.

Some would say I'm inhibitting, some would say I'm suggesting a wiser way.





 

There is nothing "wrong" with disagreeing with the usage of drugs, although in this case the cause of the disagreement seems to come from fear and lack of knowledge.  And of course, you cannot disagree that Salvia is a meaningful form of spiritual practice to me, because it is.  Its all relative to the individual.  Your opinions are meaningless to me, especially since you plain don't know what your talking about when it comes to Salvia.

I suppose you did not know that scientists have found that Salvia may have incredible healing capabilities for individuals with severe diseases and mental disorders.  It is also used to cure addictions from drugs and alcohol.  Salvia is in fact different from all other psychedelics in both its chemical make up and its effects.  Funny how you have absolutely no idea.    

And if Ralph, or anyone else, is motivated by my experiences to try Salvia for themselves, then they have every right to do so.  They can determine whether it is right for them or not.  They don't need you.  It is up to them to do the proper research and take the proper precautions.  You list three negative experiences that you know of and the rest is all biased, fear-based opinion.  Facts and experience speak louder.

OutofBodyDude...it's interesting that I logged on here to find this message.  I am currently reading, "DMT: The Spirit Molecule" which gives some interesting insight into the use of entheogens (substances that generate the divine), specifically DMT.  Before starting this book, I looked down on the use of any substances to bring about the lifting of the veil.  Athough I would not use them myself (unless under the guidance of an practiced shaman), it's quite an enlightening read, you may want to check it out. 

It's interesting to note that our own bodies (well, everything living) produces DMT, our very own psychedelic.  We can produce more of this through various methods meditation, binaural beats, dreaming, etc.

Rebecca

I actually watched a documentary on DMT: The Spirit Molecule, and listened to some interviews of the author, Rick Strassman, as well.  I definitely plan on reading the book eventually.  What is interesting is the many similarities between the experiences produced by the two entheogens DMT and Salvia.  No other psychedelic drug is quite like them.

Hi Dude,

I must say that I am in total agreement with Albert.  Drugs might enable you to have "spiritual" experiences you may not have ordinarily, however, they do little or nothing to help you grow the quality of your consciousness.  That can only be done by living your everyday life interacting with other people.  It is the way you interact with others on an everyday basis that teaches you how to grow the quality of your consciousness.

Kathy


recoverer wrote on Sep 16^th, 2009 at 5:20pm:

Dude: I appreciate that you're intent on growing spiritually, but I believe you're miguided if you believe that Salvia will play a substantial role. That said, I believe it is great that you had an experience of your oneness with the universe, but do you really need Salvia to have such an experience? If we rush things with the wrong approach, there is a chance we won't achieve the balance we are looking for. As I suggested earlier, perhaps it is useful to some people to use a psychotrophic drug because it helps them consider a new way of viewing reality. But with all the experiences you had before using Salvia, I don't understand why you need it. Regarding my Junior comment, to be frank, sometimes your youth and the resulting lack of discrimination show. Who am I to tell you this? Who are you to play a role in getting people to read the likes of Seth and take salvia? At least ways I'm trying to be responsible. Are you? Beyond what a few neat trips have told you, do you really understand the implications of taking a psychotrophic drug?

Kathy

If it were not for all the spiritual experiences I have had, I would not be the person I am today. There is no doubt that the spiritual experiences I have had have improved the quality of my consciousness.  Sure, interacting with others is a great way to learn and grow, but it is most certainly not the only way.  The fact is that the person I was before I began having spiritual experiences and the person I became as a result of the knowledge and perspective gained through the culmination of my spiritual experiences are on two totally opposite sides of the positive-negative spectrum.  Those who know me, know this is a fact.

Dude:

As an example of what Kathy said, even though I basically had good intentions when I referred to you as a junior shaman, I didn't feel completely good about doing so. Even though I can be stubborn at times, after a while I get tired of how it feels to interact in a particular way, and change accordingly. I don't believe I can experience the same growth by using a psychedelic.

I figure that eventually you'll find that your Salvia induced experiences have limited value, and move onto something else...for example...what you were already doing.

When it comes to "myself," this is how I feel about the matter. I tend to refer to my spirit guidance in a generic way, without referring to who precisely my guidance is. The only time a guide has made his identity known to me, were several occasions when Christ made his presence known to me.  I don't tend to state this, because I believe there are many light beings, and I don't want to suggest that people need to have Christ as their guide.  I must add, I don't believe I'm something special because I've received guidance from Christ--I believe that other people also receive guidance from him.

I feel honored that the spirit of Christ has taken the time to help me. Since he offers me an ocean of love and light and the kind of guidance a light being can provide, I believe that if I were to make use of psychedelics, I wouldn't be acknowledging what is available to me and how fortunate I am.

Sorry if I've gotten too pushy on this subject. Sometimes I can be like a mother hen. One of the reasons I've written a couple of books, is so that people can read what I have to say only if they want to do so. An internet forum is public territory.

I Am Dude wrote on Sep 17^th, 2009 at 2:47pm:

Kathy If it were not for all the spiritual experiences I have had, I would not be the person I am today. There is no doubt that the spiritual experiences I have had have improved the quality of my consciousness.  Sure, interacting with others is a great way to learn and grow, but it is most certainly not the only way.  The fact is that the person I was before I began having spiritual experiences and the person I became as a result of the knowledge and perspective gained through the culmination of my spiritual experiences are on two totally opposite sides of the positive-negative spectrum.  Those who know me, know this is a fact.

Hi again Dude,

Hmmm... you may want to think about this a little more.  Spiritual experiences and exploring the nonphysical realities can help you see and understand that a bigger picture exists, but these experiences (especially if drugs are used to have them) are more like entertainment/recreation/something that's fun to do, etc. and this is not what grows the quality of your consciousness.

The quality of a person's consciousness is all about the intent behind the interactions within their relationships and what is learned from those interactions that change your inner being. ELS provides untold opportunities to grow spiritually because we all have to interact with each other to survive in this world.

I'm not saying we should not explore the nonphysical realms or that we cannot learn/grow from doing so... however, it is through our interactions with other people where quality is discerned.

Kathy

I understand that interacting with others is a major way to learn and grow.  I believe there is more to the overall growth process than just that one aspect, however.  My spiritual experiences have given me a more enlightened perspective regarding the nature of my reality.  They have helped to me realize the true nature of my very being, and the physical and nonphysical worlds in which I operate.  Knowing this has shed new light upon and has given meaning to my daily life and the interactions I have with others, where as before embarking upon my spiritual journey there was little to no meaning, or rather, the meaning was unknown. 

It is the new perspectives that I gained through my first hand experience exploring the nonphysical universe which instantly created a positive shift in my beliefs and mindset, which in turn positively affected my relationship with the physical world and those living in it with me.  I'm sure that is easy to understand.  The quality of my consciousness is reflected upon my interactions with the world and with others, but these interactions with those in the physical world are not what caused the major positive shift in the quality of my consciousness.  The quality of my consciousness comes from within, and it is the manner in which I interact with the world around me which reflects this quality and shows me the characteristics of my consciousness at any given time. 

In short, it is how I perceive my interactions, what they mean to me, and what I learn from them, which dictates the quality of my consciousness-all of these being internal processes.  These interactions can be physical or nonphysical in nature; they can be with human consciousness, universal consciousness, nonphysical consciousness, or any other type of consciousness- they are all learned from in one way or another.  You cannot simply focus on one type of interaction, for we engage in many types, all being equally valid.

Recoverer

I respect your decision not to use drugs.

Regarding me moving on from using Salvia... I am still doing all the things I was before.. meditating, yoga, projections.  And every now and then I will have a Salvia induced experience as well.  It produces an experience quite unlike those had through meditating and projecting, yet equally rewarding.  If I decide to stop using Salvia it really won't be a big deal for me.  I will just continue doing what I have been doing all along, exploring, learning, with added perspective gained through the Salvia experiences. 

I do acknowledge what is available to me naturally, and likewise realize that I am fortunate to be so aware of and in touch with my abilities.  I am also aware of other experiences available to me thanks to a gift from mother earth known as Salvia, and I currently am choosing to further my exploration, to take my consciousness into new directions, with it.  When I feel that I can no longer benefit from Salvia, I will stop.  I am sure the day will come.  Maybe sooner than later.  But I will never stop using my god given abilities to access my nonphysical source or end my relationship with my inner self. 

We cannot generally divide "right" from "wrong" experiences just because one is experienced soberly, and the other under the influence of drugs. We must be aware of the fact that we always are under the influence of some drugs- or their absence. Some eat this, some eat that. There are a lot of diet plans for having a spiritually fullfilled life. So called "drugs" are elements of the physical. You can take it or leave it. When you're smart, you take the right things. That's the only limitation there is, take what you can handle, and therefore, you have to find out before by carefully inform yourself about any potent substance you're considering to take. Have you had strong fears after taking cannabis? Then you better think twice before taking anything else.

I mostly am the same opinion with OobDude. At the same time, though, I beg to keep in mind, what for one person might be beneficial, for the other can be disastrous (as OobDude already has said).

Terence McKenna's book "True Hallucinations" is about mainly psilocybin and secondly DMT (if I remember right). While the group he's telling of had some quite unusual experiences, there's nothing really substantial for the reader to learn (other than the effects of the drugs). That's the backside, weird experiences, but unusable, nothing to grow on. But I believe on the other hand, by the right person, at the right time, with the right setting, it can be just right and beneficial to take psychotropic drugs. Salvia seems to be the most "spiritual" one, with the lessest side effects, according to what I've read.

I haven't tried other drugs than cannabis and alcohol. But I'm curious (but cautious as well).

Spooky

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Dude: You can try to make me out to be the bad guy if you want to. I wasn't going to say anything until Ralph Buskey responded and said he's going to try Salvia. You responded to Ralph with apparently no consideration as to whether or not Salvia is a good thing for Ralph.

Hello Recoverer.

   There's no need to worry about me. I've researched salvia divinorum well before OutOfBodyDude brought the subject up. I've been meaning to try it for awhile, but I don't have the money yet to purchase any.

   As far as psychedelic drugs go, I'm very experienced with them. I've done LSD at least two dozen times, with ten hits being the most at one time. I've done psilocybin mushrooms several times. I've had MDA and crystal THC several times, and many occasions of DXM. I still haven't tried mescaline, DMT, or ayahuasca yet, but would like to someday.

   I'm not a drug user. I do, however, like to experience different avenues of perception, so I can better ascertain reality from differing viewpoints. I've never experimented until I was 19 years old. I've never tried anything without researching it first. I take the approach as a scientist would.

   Nothing I've taken has harmed me, but actually improved my understanding of life beyond the normal human perception. Don't think that I'm being an advocate of drug use, because I'm not. It can have serious ramifications to the psychology of minds that aren't strong enough to handle altered states.

   My goal is to achieve enlightenment in a totally natural way. Pschedelics are merely a tool to widen my perspective, not for escape from reality. After I try salvia, I can compare it to my other experiences and then move on.

Ralph

Spooky,
"[...]Terence McKenna's book "True Hallucinations" is about mainly psilocybin and secondly DMT[...]"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2PkmsluXHAc

I like this one where he talks about the psychedelic experience. His little-finger comment cracks me up. But whereas mckenna talks about it being exclusive for the the good of all (who's to decide that?), I wouldn't want to rule out the possibility of making personal insights.

Ralph,
"[...]My goal is to achieve enlightenment in a totally natural way. Pschedelics are merely a tool to widen my perspective, not for escape from reality. After I try salvia, I can compare it to my other experiences and then move on."

Best comments I've read regarding drugs/psychedelics in a long time. :)

I think there is nothing wrong with a seeker seeking by whatever method he or she deems profitable. Ultimately it is up to the individual to choose. And it is up to that same individual to glean whatever precautions might be necessary. I wish I could use some of this stuff but my bi polar meds make it extremely difficult to add anything new to the mix. When I'm old and hopefully off by myself I'm going off all this crap and I'm gonna find my real self and try some of this stuff I've heard so much about, like Salvia.

I've tried cutting out sugar and meat and many other "healthy" recommendations and I find it does not free up my mind at all, I just get more nervous about meditation--ain't that a kick! When I eat my own comfortable diet I can at least dream things that add to my growth...but I would like an OBE sometime that comes about consciously...I don't think I would try ketamine, but that other stuff sounds appealing. Thomas Campbell says not  to rely on anything like that because it would be like putting a baby behind the wheel of a speeding car, but I'm to the point where I could deal with just a minute or two out there and be satisfied for myself that my consciousness is fundamental and not a development of the brain. Good thread.

Volu, (OOBD).., 10 hits of acid? Holy crumb!! When I was doing sid in the 70's one hit of window pane , or perhaps a dbl hit of blotter or dbl orange barrel would get me tripping for a good day. Doing 10 hits would have sent me into a mental institution... I quit drugs some years back, in fact I don't even smoke dope anymore.  In the end I found personally that they just were not the answer. The main reason is because of the entrapment of the body by using drugs. Yes there is mind stoned, and there is body stoned, but by using drugs it became less spiritualy fofilling as it meant I was using a poison in my body to induce a perceived spiritual enlightenment in my head. The most unfortunate part was that the perceived experience was a byproduct of the body and not of the spirit. As for doing the drugs, I say " do what you do". In the end, you will grow beyond the need of such inducements that will only keep you stuck within the phyical, and not lead you out and beyond, to the spiritual. "True" spiritual awareness does not come only for but a few hours at a time, and only when you do drugs. I believe that attaining true awareness is only possible when you have clear thought, mainly because you then know it not a drug induces state.

It's a person's own business what they do, what drugs they choose to use, whether prescribed or not.

Obviously, the bodymindspirit responds to all kinds of stimuli, so what one chooses to label as a drug can vary.

Personally, I think an adult human being can greatly benefit from spending at least a considerable portion of their life experience drug-free, completely. What I mean, in as pure and natural state as he or she can do.

But this, as with any other 'lifestyle', can be adhered to in such a strict way as to be obsessive.

At least, that's my point of view. I could go into my own personal history in detail. That would be kind of a bore, after listening to all of your stories.

Thank you, but no thanks, to any kind of invitation to explain a lifetime of choices. That's just a personal thing to me, anyway. It takes all kinds of experiences to have a well-rounded life. I would never tell another person what to do, in that respect.

Hawkeye,
"In the end I found personally that they just were not the answer. The main reason is because of the entrapment of the body by using drugs."

I agree, not my answer too, but it's an experience that I see different people try to fence in for different reasons. My conclusion is that drugs are for the spirit what breeding is for the body, and I don't like those temporary chains. But why shouldn't spirits be able to come to their own conclusions? I'd say chances are the most avid incarnational gatekeeper is stoned out of his or her mind right this very moment in at least one incarnation elsewhere in time.

In linear time, today it is 39 years ago since a last psychedelic note was played as that incarnation:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2XDX81R-byA

If these experiences weren't what the higher self wanted to have, why did it happen?

"The story of life
is quicker than the wink of an eye
The story of love is hello and goodbye,
until we meet again."

I am reminded of an old saying about the road through enlightenment through Zen philosophy which goes something like this (forgive the crude paraphrasing): 

Before I began to practice Zen, the sky was just the sky, the grass was simply the grass and a mountain was just a mountain.  As I began to meditate the sky was more than the sky, the grass was much more than the grass, and the mountains were more than just mountains.  When I reached enlightenment, the sky was once again the sky, the grass just the grass and the mountain was once again a mountain.

I think that sums up the spiritual journey of many people.  Consciousness is what it is, and there is a sense at times that we are not truly experiencing it unless we are free of our physical bodies and the earth.  Hogwash.  Those who think you have to go OOB are missing the point.

Consciousness is present - wherever you go, there you are.   

I encourage people to explore.  I am not in favor of hallucinogens because I believe there is a distortion effect that blocks crystal clear perception.  I prefer meditation at this stage of my life, but do not deny another the opportunity to explore their own way.

Earth life may be a special gift.  We can explore other states of mind, but do not for a minute think that this "real world" is something to be looked down on or shunned.  We live, we perceive, we love.  We do it down here on earth in linnear time.  Consequences seem immense at times.  Yet we go on.

More power to Dude, yet I am glad that he comes down to earth to type on this forum in between visits with the universe.  :)

Matthew

Quote:

I encourage people to explore.  I am not in favor of hallucinogens because I believe there is a distortion effect that blocks crystal clear perception.  I prefer meditation at this stage of my life, but do not deny another the opportunity to explore their own way.

Hello Mathew.

   I agree with this remark except for the fact that's there's more to it. Perhaps the distortion effect only occurs on focus levels where normal lucid consciousness is prevalent.

   My experiences have allowed me to attain focus levels that I feel are only attainable by tuning into the wavelengths that can only be discovered through the shamanic portal created by the particular substance associated with it (especially psychedelics). It's like not knowing what going oob is like without actually achieving it.

   Consider also that not many people have tuned into focus levels assosciated with the animal kingdom. The plant kingdom probably have there own focus levels as well.

Ralph

I'm curious about psychedelics, also.

But, if I ever try any, I only want to do natural ones, because I don't want to attain experiences to the detriment of the health of my body which is the risk you take by using artificial substances.

Of course, excess Anything can mess your body up, so I agree with the folks around here who say you need to be careful.

But, I also agree with Out of Body Dude that Mother Nature provides these substances for a reason, and if used wisely and carefully can be of great benefit to one's spiritual life. Just the same as I believe that natural wild edibles are there for us to enjoy, such as Purslane (Verdolaga in Spanish) for instance, which is one of the healthiest and least known about greens on the planet, so, too I believe the psychedelics like Salvia are there to be used for our benefit as well.

Everything must all be taken within reason, of course. I might enjoy one of those natural psychedelics someday, but after I've done my homework.  8-)

I am with OutOfBodyDude on this, and Ralph. I went to Woodstock, and cannot even estimate the number of psychedelic experiences I had in the 60's and 70's. I know no one who ever had any lasting effects or flashbacks (darn it), except that those experiences changed them fundamentally, and the way they interacted with their reality. It certainly did that for me, and was the beginning of a path that has led WAAAAYYYY beyond Focus 27 or anything I learned at monroe Institute. I found my experiences with Salvia and Ayahuasca quite different that the others. I value these experiences, and would never talk down to anyone in judgement about their personal decision to use these substances for expansion.

But in general, if you only have a learner's permit it is best to leave the Ferrari alone.

But with all the Nutrasweet, alcohol, nicotine, caffeine, white sugar, corn syrup and such---- how can you pretend you are not taking drugs? Food is medicine (drugs). Don't you think these substances bend your consciousness, too? And what about HAARP and EMF?

Build your light body however you find a way to do so. You will need it soon. Sooner than you think, friends.

There are many more such alchemical substances which have been made and used over the centuries. Psychoactive drugs are only one group. The Philosopher's Stone (yes, it exists) makes these things seem like Tylenol. There is more under Heaven and Earth than is dreamed of in our philosophies.....

Check out ORMUS www.subtleenergies.com/ORMUS
for example. It induces the same hemispheric synchronization that binaural beats do, but with no headphones, no CHEK unit, no induced dream state.... just the expanded awareness with your eyes open, right here in C-1. And no psychoactivity.....

Yes, there are many toys here, and none by accident. At least for those of us that have eyes to see and ears to hear....

Thomas

Thomas,
"But with all the Nutrasweet, alcohol, nicotine, caffeine, white sugar, corn syrup and such---- how can you pretend you are not taking drugs? Food is medicine (drugs). Don't you think these substances bend your consciousness, too? And what about HAARP and EMF?"

And fluoride that allegedly is good for the teeth. I prefer kingfisher tea tree mint without crapouride. - A friend of mine who used to clean hotel rooms told me she was surprised at the amount of pill bottles the americans staying there had. Looking at the ads on the TV (another form of drug for some) playing in amerika, it starts to make some sense. "Got no pill cravings? We got the pill for it!" At the end of the day, it seems to me that drugs that involve the mind/spirit tend to get demonized.

"Build your light body however you find a way to do so. You will need it soon. Sooner than you think, friends."

What do you think we are in for? Maybe a question for another topic, but I ask since I read it here.

Yes, we take a lot of "drugs" all the time, every day. So psychedelics are just other drugs, but not principally different.

The sentence from Thomas reminds me of a gnostic interpretation of religion, that it is important to come to a spiritual understanding, or become anew ("build a light body") during our physical lifetime, otherwise we would roam the shadow realm and eventually (maybe) would be reborn again.

Spooky

I just want to say that before anyone is like heck yeah I wanna try some of that Salvia stuff!

You have know idea of what you are about to get yourself into. Salvia is not addicting at all in my opinion and will most likely scare the CRAP out of you.

When you take salvia for the first time, within the first oh, 30-40 seconds or so of holding and letting go of the smoke, you will forget. Yes.... forget. You will be lost. You will not know that you just took a hit of salvia. You won't know what is going on, why you are feeling so different. You will become lost in yourself. (IF you take it alone.) If others are present you tend to be able to keep yourself to reality more if it is what you want.

My first time, I had final fantasy vii clips playing on my tv. The words on the screen reformed, they were speaking directly to me. The tv words I read said I am under they're control. They said I had to do what they said. They told me I couldn't get off the bed. They couldn't tell me what to do! I struggled to stand, I floundered towards the tv. The words said I couldn't turn the tv off. I had to show them that I was in control. I reached out......and turned off the tv. I laid back down on the bed and returned to myself. I suddenly realized I had taken salvia. Yes, for about 5-10 minutes you will not even know WHY you feel the way you do.

Like I said, this type of experience only happens when I am alone. If other people are present it's disappointing. Your mind needs to be able to forget about the other people....

Well... this could probably 100% negated if you took a higher concentration.

I would imagine a 100X trip while sitting in a huge hall filled with 300 people and all of them trying to talk to you wouldn't even reach you. You would be completely gone, lost inside yourself.

The main point is, watch out! Salvia can really FREAK you out!

This is my own personal experience with Salvia. I have done other drugs, not because of BOREDOM or stupidity.

I chose to try drugs for the experience. To see what it was. I say now that I have overall control of myself. I have a slight alcohol addiction... (I need "some" alcohol weekly 1-3 glasses of wine or some beers. nothing crazy.) which occasionally i will take farther to get some drunkenness and some weeks no alcohol. I still consider this an addiction because I want it so bad and give in so often.

To salvia this has not happened. In fact I have great trepidation and fear before I take the hit. Yes trepidation! Because when I am in a dark room and I take a concentrated dose of salvia I know that within 1 minutes time I will be lost. And then ANYTHING can happen.

When you think about it without the substance in front of you this sounds like a potentially fun experience.....

But when it's right there... well... that's another story. This stuff is not for the faint of heart.

TRUST ME.

Love, Mitch

BE CAREFUL!!!!!

Mitch

I have found that one's experience on Salvia is influenced by the underlying state of the individual and whether or not they truely know what they are getting into.  If one is not comfortable with experiencing the loss of ego, then caution should be taken- for this is what happens.  If one accepts the true nature of their inner being and its relationship with the universe, and would like to explore other realms of consciousness, then Salvia is the perfect tool.  Of course, not everyone is ready for this type of experience.  One can still have a very enjoyable, less extreme experience with Salvia if the less potent extract is smoked.

I Am Dude wrote on Sep 22^nd, 2009 at 8:05pm:

Mitch I have found that one's experience on Salvia is influenced by the underlying state of the individual and whether or not they truely know what they are getting into.  If one is not comfortable with experiencing the loss of ego, then caution should be taken- for this is what happens.  If one accepts the true nature of their inner being and its relationship with the universe, and would like to explore other realms of consciousness, then Salvia is the perfect tool.  Of course, not everyone is ready for this type of experience.  One can still have a very enjoyable, less extreme experience with Salvia if the less potent extract is smoked.

Dude, you are really getting into dangerous territory here. Read what you've written in your post.

"If one accepts the true nature of their inner being and it's relationship with the universe, and would like to explore other realms of consciousness, then Salvia is the perfect tool"

Those are the words of either a fanatic or an addict.

Your enthusiasm for this drug is scary.

Griffin

Please explain how my words are those of a fanatic or an addict.  I will then show you exactly why you are wrong. 

It's not possible to be addicted to salvia if you ask me. Just not possible.

DXM (Dextromorphan) on the other hand.... that is a drug that can be addicting!

I DO NOT RECOMMEND THE USE OF ANY DRUGS. THIS IS JUST FOR INFORMATIONAL PURPOSES.

My list of drugs I have done for the experience:

Caffeine: Makes me hungry, can cause dizziness, irritability, rapid heart. Don't recommend over doing it.

Alcohol: Everything has to be just right for this to work. Too tired and it can suck. Also can become very emotional and upset on the down end of the good part.

Marijuana: Causes me to lose myself in a jumble of philosophical thoughts and concepts. Also causes me to focus on death and panic begins, rapid heartbeat. Constant thoughts going over all aspects of death. Unable to find solution the panic continues until sleep and drug leaves system.

DXM: Very much like alcohol, wonderful. Feeling like I am controlling myself from slightly behind myself. Like I am almost not really in my body at all. Everything is such a funny wonderland. Movement is like a strange hopping motion, legs pop up so high. It's just great. Too bad it's not healthy. It is mentally addictive.

Salvia: Complete loss of reality. Loss of your mind. A trip guaranteed. But not necessarily a good one...

I'm not talking about physical addiction. One can get addicted to the state of consciousness the drug induces.

Dude, you're proselytising for the use of Salvia like it's a religion.

Put a different word in your phrase and see how it sounds...

"If one accepts the true nature of their inner being and it's relationship with the universe, and would like to explore other realms of consciousness, then Buddhism is the perfect tool"

A statement like that says nothing real, it just reveals something about the person making the statement.

Terethian posted his experience with the drug. You basically replied that he had that experience because he wasn't as enlightened as you.

Whoops! Gotta feed the cats and go to work! Reality beckons!

Griffin

Salvia IS a tool- a natural tool created by the earth- to access other levels of consciousness.  This is simply a fact.  Those who have experienced it, or have done any research on it, know this.  Even those who oppose the use of drugs can agree to this.

I believe you filled the wrong word in the sentence.  Let's take another look:

"If one accepts the true nature of their inner being and it's relationship with the universe, and would like to explore other realms of consciousness, then Meditation is the perfect tool"

Meditation is likewise a tool.  Buddhism is a religion, not a tool.  There can be tools found within the Buddhist system of thought- meditation being one of them- but Buddhism itself is not a tool.  I realize that the practice of meditating is not exactly the same as using Salvia- but they both allow oneself to enter altered realms of consciousness.

What this statement says is that if one is mentally prepared for the Salvia experience, then one will be more aware of what will happen, and be more likely to have a good experience.  I and many other people I know were ready, and therefore had wonderful experiences.  The first time my one friend did it, he was not ready- he had a frightening experience.  The second time he did it, he was more ready- plus he tried a less potent extract- and he had a wonderful, enlightening experience. 

You claim I'm addicted, yet I haven't even had the slightest urge to use Salvia since my last experience.

I replied to Terethian's post because it seemed he was implanting fear, using his negative experience with it and generalizing that this will probably happen to everyone.  This is simply not the case.  My point is that two people can both use Salvia, smoke the same amount of the same strength, and have two totally different trips- one negative, and one positive.  The reason for this is obviously internal.

Dude,

Sometimes you should just take your lumps and own up to it - your intentions were good, but it was a bit haughty to say that if one is spiritually ready, Salvia will be a great experience. 

There are many variables in day-to-day life.  So, while I may be spiritually ready for an enlightening trip, I may have a reaction between the caffeine in the tea I drank, or a minor virus, or a troubling conversation with a friend - or one of a million possible confounding factors that would cause me to "lose it."

Put in that perspective, Terethian's warning is really important.  Having had some experience in my youth with hallucinogens, I too doubt that they are addictive.  But there have been people who jumped off roofs, and ended their existence by mistake - and you definitely wouldn't want that on your head.

Its ok to be right but be wrong sometimes too. 

Matthew

Mattew


Quote:

one's experience on Salvia is influenced by the underlying state of the individual and whether or not they truely know what they are getting into.

The variables you mentioned which could cause one to "loose it," all affect the individuals underlying state of being- or perhaps it's the other way around.  Either way, one must be in an ideal state to get the most from not just a salvia trip, but any type of altered state of consciousness. 

What I said was if one is spiritually ready, Salvia is a great tool to explore other levels of consciousness.  I don't see how it is arrogant to say this.  This is just something I have learned from the experience of myself and others. 

Actually I didn't say I had a bad experience, you just assumed that! I love the fact that my TV words were reformed and what I read was talking directly to me. It was amazing.

I have had other experiences with things talking to me. I go into the experience hoping for something like contacting the dead but that has never happened.

But I still get really scared before hitting salvia. Every time. AND....

I totally did mean it as a warning. Salvia is not to be trifled with. I don't care what state of mind and meditating you do before smoking a concentrated extract, you can potentially really freak out and not enjoy it whatsoever.

You may think you know what it's like after reading my posts but dear God let me tell you... you have no idea. This stuff is not for the faint of heart. Most likely you will try it and never want to do it again. Seriously.*

*I base this statement on many people I have shared salvia with. NONE of them have any interest in ever doing it again. Some of them are actually afraid. They'll do lots of other drugs too, but when you are like, have some salvia, they are like HECK NO!!!!!

[/quote]
What I said was if one is spiritually ready, Salvia is a great tool to explore other levels of consciousness.  I don't see how it is arrogant to say this.  This is just something I have learned from the experience of myself and others. 
[/quote]

Dude, what you said was "Salvia is the perfect tool" (for exploring consciousness)

That absolute statement means that there ain't nothing better in the universe to use as a means to explore reality than Salvia.. "the perfect tool"

You're a very positive person, I'm really grateful you're here among us, you are such an asset to this forum. And I couldn't ignore the impulse to post on this thread. It's reckless to actively encourage people to experiment with Salvia. You can't control or anticipate the possible outcomes of people doing so.

(Oh btw, Buddhism is a vehicle... like a boat. Once you use it to arrive at your destination, you get out of it and walk away. You don't stay there worshiping the boat.
I know people call it a religion. It's really not)

Best to one & all,
                          Tim
                           

Griffin,
"Dude, what you said was "Salvia is the perfect tool" (for exploring consciousness) That absolute statement means that there ain't nothing better in the universe to use as a means to explore reality than Salvia.. "the perfect tool"

I read that he really likes it, just as others share what they like. And that's an individual choice, not democracy/mob rule. Different information in this thread, to make an informed decision -> discernment -> personal responsibility.

Mitch

You said:


Quote:

You may think you know what it's like after reading my posts but dear God let me tell you... you have no idea. This stuff is not for the faint of heart. Most likely you will try it and never want to do it again. Seriously.* *I base this statement on many people I have shared salvia with. NONE of them have any interest in ever doing it again. Some of them are actually afraid. They'll do lots of other drugs too, but when you are like, have some salvia, they are like HECK NO!!!!!

Is it a coincidence that the people you know who have had bad trips on Salvia are also drug addicts?  Perhaps not. 

Griffin


Quote:

"Dude, what you said was "Salvia is the perfect tool" (for exploring consciousness) That absolute statement means that there ain't nothing better in the universe to use as a means to explore reality than Salvia.

I suppose you misunderstood my message.  What I was trying to say is that Salvia is an excellent tool for inducing altered states of consciousness and expanding one's perception of reality. 

I don't see how it's reckless to encourage people to try Salvia.  I have already given the proper warnings.  I am simply opening their minds to new possibilities of experience- experience which has proved to be extremely beneficial to expanding my perceptions of reality.  Doing a little research into it will allow them to determine whether Salvia is for them or not. 

(Oh btw, I am not worshiping the boat(Salvia).  However, if this boat helped me to better reach my destination, then I am most certainly going to share my knowledge of the boat with others.  It is ultimately up to them to decide whether they want to take the ride.)

What cometh before a fall?  Oh yeah, that.

M

DocM,
"What cometh before a fall?  Oh yeah, that."

Summer comes before fall. Guilt overload can also precede a fall - from trusting ones own spiritual judgement - to fall back into letting the external be the guide. One may of course also be wrong, both fall and fail, but can at least be PROUD that one is becoming responsible for ones self.

Making a decision, not because it's popular, or unpopular, but because that's what you want to do. Worth noting that a decision like this doesn't involve walking over dead vessels to get what you want. One makes a dish, decides if the taste is right, refine it, or perhaps make a new one, while 10 other chefs want one to either put in or leave out ingredients, maybe saying one is proud for not falling into compliance with their demands.

Don on this board once used the expression, found in doctrine that if one sins one should "sin but sin boldly!"  An interesting phrase, and I think I understand its meaning.  I get the meaning of going in whichever way you go with gusto, not tentatively.

One must be open to an exchange of ideas, and differences in opinion (including consequences of these differences), even if one sticks to his/her guns about his/her own personal preference.  Acknowledgements, even apologies have their place in this complex interaction on forums.

That's all I'm saying.

M

DocM,
"Acknowledgements, even apologies have their place in this complex interaction on forums."

A fair overview. Going beyond the protective barrier of ego, reviewing, if one doesn't think nor feel an apology is applicable, making an apology because of an expectation or demand is as regressive or status quo like as never ever making an apology - even if one think that's really the right move.

Well, I'm not gonna do salvia, and making no excuses about it. Anyway, here's a quick beginners guide to writing letters to congress while smoking salvia:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2JPfnJVEr8E

I belong to many drug sites, believe it or not most drugs have an individual fan forum so to speak where people talk about it.

On the salvia forum EVERYONE agrees that salvia is a harsh mistress, we call her Sally. If you mess around with her and take her lightly, she will smack you down and put you in your place. Think about that before anyone tries salvia for the first time. Oh yeah and you are always supposed to have a sitter, though to be honest if you have a sitter your trip is going to suck. My good trips are always alone. Too hard to focus on just yourself when another person is around.

All this talk makes me want to order some salvia though I probably won't. I really really REALLY want DXM. I am addicted to it, very addicted. Sure I haven't had it in a long while now but I want it and crave that state of mind. I drink alcohol as a filler / replacement for it but it's not the same. I have special rules on DXM, like NO alcohol consumed, even small amounts within 7 days and no caffeine either. I can't go that long without alcohol or caffeine lol. Plus it does seem very risky to do it... alcohol is much more widely accepted and that makes it okay!

.....right?  ;D  :D  ;D  :D

Terethian

How many times have you smoked Salvia?  I was hoping maybe you could post some of your more memorable experiences with it.

By the way, I figure that what you say about Salvia is probably based on your personal experience, such as "good trips are always alone", and "smoking Salvia with a sitter sucks."  However, the way you word it makes it seem like these are definite facts which apply to everyone, when in reality this is not the case.  Having a sitter is one of the precautions which I recommend.  I have had a sitter every time I've used Salvia, and each experience was amazing.  I'm not going to say that smoking Salvia with a sitter will produce an amazing trip, however, for there are many other factors involved which influence the experience.

The path is shown to those who know how to follow it.

Avoiding the path doesn't make the path go away.

You choose your own path in life.

Ralph

Kathy's early responses in this thread are full of wisdom.  It is not that hallucinogens are not possible tools on a spiritual quest.  The issue is; what have they taught you, with respect to expressing love?  Many many sources speak of true spiritual growth manifest as expressing more love; love of other people (one's neighbor) and love of God. 

If the hallucinogen shows you that you are more than your physical body - ok - that is a step we all should aspire toward.  If it allows you to have an OOB experience, again, that's a nice beginning, but has nothing to do with love.  The seemingly mundane salvia-free world is full of valid human interactions that directly place us on a road toward an enhanced love, and therefore - spirituality. 

There is a certain self-centeredness in exploring psycho-active substances, that doesn't usually connect with love in more than a nonspecific  way.  A merging with objects and the universe is definitely meaningful.  But love needs to be expressed and manifest with intent and purpose in order to truly be realized.

Can directed psychedelics work with meditation, and common directed thought, toward a more enlightened spiritual end?  My answer is a qualified "yes," but..........

if a hallucinogen disorients us so as to be unable to apply intent in our ends and expressing more love in the process, then it is of passing interest.  The youtube videos of Salvia trips show within seconds to 2 minutes, a complete disorientation when large concentrations of Salvia are smoked and inhaled.  Most posters of these videos are unable to speak, hold a conversation or think in any rational way during those few minutes.  The visions they may have could have value in showing themselves and others that we are more than our physical bodies but there is a bigger factor - love. 

Kathy's point about person to person interactions and, at a more fundamental level, love, are something to really consider when evaluating these "tools" of perception.


Matthew

Dude, I smoked salvia about seven times. I made a mistake I recently met one person that does like salvia through a friend. But at least five people I introduced it to dislike it and one of them is terrified because he had a really bad trip.

I could post trip reports but it's mainly inanimate things talking to me telling me I am under they're control and must do as they say. Pretty much just useless hallucinations. Some of them are pretty funny though like my wifes littlest pet shop toy collection, all talking to me.... in unison. It was like 30 high pitched voices all speaking together as a collective to me. Great times.... great times.

It's just a trip on salvorin a for me, a reaction within the brain. Not a mind opening / expanding experience. /shrug.

Oh and of course always have a sitter. It's unsafe not to have a sitter to keep you safe.

I choose not to have one, personal preference, other people bother me, I am too self conscious. Can't escape with other people to worry about.

Yes Matthew, you certainly drew a line. But this is dependant on what worth we attribute to the common expressions of physical life. It's quite clear, those (salvia-youtube) people phase out and cannot connect with "sober" people in the usual way anymore. And that's the point: Maybe they don't care. And maybe that's allright.

   To express PUL is a difficult thing. I once, after a meditation (no drugs), was so full of it, and could sort of radiate it, but I guess from the other's perspective I appeared as a freak. Maybe a somewhat glowing, comforting freak, but still a freak. And this social status is quite similar to a druggie on the love trip.

Sometimes I think for expressing and receiving PUL a psychedelic drug state is far more capable than our common sober state. I wish it was different, but I just see what is.

Spooky

Interesting point Spooks,

I have no doubt that one may experience love, sensations, etc. while on Salvia.  However, PUL, from my experience is an active emotion that usually is also directed and expressed toward another.  Service to others, charity, kindness - in short, love directs our actions.  The idea that we radiate the emotion, without acting on it, misses the heart of what PUL is all about.  It is, at least for a brief time, self-indulgence.

So, while I don't disagree about the undeniable fact that Salvia shows you another reality (again teaches some that we are more than our physical bodies), unless it is more than a personal mental masturbation, it may not be teaching us about expressing love.  Love to others, and love of God. 

I'll qualify it in this way; occasionally, in these experiences we feel a unity with things (plants, rocks, etc.).  If, in some way, that experience can then let us act more lovingly to others, when the trip is over, then the net sum of the experience may lead to more love.

I'm sure however, in my gut, that there is more to learn about PUL in our interactions in the physical world, and that is why we are here.

Matthew

This is what happens when people with experience riding ponies at birthday parties get on a racehorse.

Without the inner work, it won't matter what you take. If the train does not stop for you, it is not your train.

I could not agree more:
Kathy's early responses in this thread are full of wisdom.  It is not that hallucinogens are not possible tools on a spiritual quest.  The issue is; what have they taught you, with respect to expressing love?

Past all the "Wow, man" stuff, what has it REALLY taught you about LOVE?

Thomas

DocM,
"However, PUL, from my experience is an active emotion that usually is also directed and expressed toward another.  Service to others, charity, kindness - in short, love directs our actions. The idea that we radiate the emotion, without acting on it, misses the heart of what PUL is all about. It is, at least for a brief time, self-indulgence."

I thoroughly enjoy affection, connection, kindness, interpersonal warmth, happiness, laughter, hugs, fun, smiles and good times. The most difficult to explain has been internal, something which reminds me of the aforementioned, but is much, much stronger, yet so gentle and pure; I have no word(s) for it. My red flags rise when it's made into an obligation/expectancy/demand - love 'n light fascism. One must love, if not felt, fake it. Self-indulgence and stroking the praying monkey also applies when working out a sweat cos it feels good to help out, hard to say no, it's expected and the pat on the back feels good too. Being revered, an icon for the helped, getting the 'good' label branded on ones rump, telling stories how one helped someone to make oneself look good, but no really, it's all, unconditionally, about them. Service to others compared to warm baked, butter steamed goat cheese? The cheese doesn't beg or give orders to be eaten. Smells better too, for me. Bon appetite either way; service to others, goat cheese, salvia or something else.

Volu

It's funny.. this morning I was thinking the very same thing. 

Volu,

If you read my posts carefully you'll see that I never connected following the path of love (PUL) exclusively with obligatory service to others.  I don't begrudge you your cheese, nor would I begrudge myself chocolate ice cream, or anyone's self indulgence.  But if you look at what many different cultures say about love, and spirituality, the issue of an "active" love does come up.  Action is almost always the result of thought.

Any volunteer work that I do, or any inclination I have to help others is personal - I do not write about it on the board, nor seek fame or notoriety.  My true contention is that as we move toward love, our own personal desire for service to others increases unbidden.  Obligatory service to me, or service to get your name spoken of (or a plaque, etc.) is odious to me, and completely fake.

On the other hand, we are our thoughts, and our actions flow from thought.  When does an astral explorer seek to continue exploring a mental plane, or stop out and help another who seems lost? 

When does our conscious intention open up to service to others, and how do we integrate this into a personal spiritual search?

Matthew 

One interesting thing which I find is that salvia reminds me of something. Even the first time I did it, I can recall the strange and weird sensations in my mind as being oddly familiar, like this is something special, something more inside of me which I was returning to. A different way of thought or more connected with certain thoughts. It's hard to explain. You wouldn't think a person could receive a familiar feeling from something they have never done before!

I am only here for the pie. Seriously.




DocM wrote on Sep 26^th, 2009 at 4:16pm:

Volu, If you read my posts carefully you'll see that I never connected following the path of love (PUL) exclusively with obligatory service to others.  I don't begrudge you your cheese, nor would I begrudge myself chocolate ice cream, or anyone's self indulgence.  But if you look at what many different cultures say about love, and spirituality, the issue of an "active" love does come up.  Action is almost always the result of thought. Any volunteer work that I do, or any inclination I have to help others is personal - I do not write about it on the board, nor seek fame or notoriety.  My true contention is that as we move toward love, our own personal desire for service to others increases unbidden.  Obligatory service to me, or service to get your name spoken of (or a plaque, etc.) is odious to me, and completely fake. On the other hand, we are our thoughts, and our actions flow from thought.  When does an astral explorer seek to continue exploring a mental plane, or stop out and help another who seems lost?  When does our conscious intention open up to service to others, and how do we integrate this into a personal spiritual search? Matthew

Matthew,
"If you read my posts carefully you'll see that I never connected following the path of love (PUL) exclusively with obligatory service to others." 

I read the post I commented on carefully, and those were my thoughts.

"I don't begrudge you your cheese, nor would I begrudge myself chocolate ice cream, or anyone's self indulgence.  But if you look at what many different cultures say about love, and spirituality, the issue of an "active" love does come up.  Action is almost always the result of thought."

Well, I put the cheese in for comic relief. Although interesting to hear about different cultures, how they think, what they do, it's not a red thread for me.

"Any volunteer work that I do, or any inclination I have to help others is personal - I do not write about it on the board, nor seek fame or notoriety.  My true contention is that as we move toward love, our own personal desire for service to others increases unbidden. Obligatory service to me, or service to get your name spoken of (or a plaque, etc.) is odious to me, and completely fake."

Whatever work you do and the inclination is personal indeed.

"On the other hand, we are our thoughts, and our actions flow from thought.  When does an astral explorer seek to continue exploring a mental plane, or stop out and help another who seems lost?"

Helping out is a valid choice. For me. Did I mention ME? Yes. Me, myself, and I. Comic relief again. I (hey, nice going there, lovely you, no, I mean me) want to make the point that I don't claim to know what's best for ALL. Knowing that incarnations have higher aspects with constant attention provided makes the moving on a valid choice too. I at least have experienced being lost, and then find a way. Helped, inspired and moved by generous, amazing and awesomely lovely spirits too.

"When does our conscious intention open up to service to others, and how do we integrate this into a personal spiritual search?"

The word individual seems to be frowned upon in light circles, as it lacks direction for a group, but that's a word I like. Even standing in front of a group of co-workers showing them how to use a computer program, I don't like being the one they look to for answers. Discussions can be fun though, since there are so many views to examine. And thought processes are stimulated. So. Short version is, I don't know for a group. What I do know is that service to sounds like being a butler.

Hi Volu,

I understand that you don't like the idea of compelled service to others.  Neither do I.  Your championship of individuality also makes perfect sense to me too.  However, one has to make blanket statements to some extent in order to have these discussions.

Consider for example, the title of this thread "Psycedelics: Portals to true spiritual experience."  Hmmmm...sound like a generalized statement for us all, no?  Yet Volu, or Matthew may not like that there is an implication that we should all take psychedelics in order to progress and grow. 

So ease up.  I accept that you, Volu want to be, revel, and do whatever without feeling as if you must be compelled to help others.  My posts aren't stating that we all have to help others either, just that there are a number of sources, and personal experiences (which I know you value more than the sources themselves), which suggest that when we become more loving, we seem to help others more without being forced to - more that it is a natural occurrence, that is unforced. 

If service sounds like being a butler, perhaps I can find a better word, that doesn't sound like slaving away.  Perhaps it would simply be "helping," -  helping each other.

Matthew



 

Matthew,
"Consider for example, the title of this thread "Psycedelics: Portals to true spiritual experience." Hmmmm...sound like a generalized statement for us all, no?  Yet Volu, or Matthew may not like that there is an implication that we should all take psychedelics in order to progress and grow."

I read that as his thoughts on the subject; doesn't say our portals, or that we must be psyched to have true spiritual experience. Provocative? I can see that, and loving it. Edgy? He stands next to a mountain, and chops it down with the edge of his hand.

This reminds me of a phrase my mother uses containing the words, our lord. "Nope, the repetition doesn't help, still your lord". Doesn't say our lord in the topic though.

"So ease up. I accept that you, Volu want to be, revel, and do whatever without feeling as if you must be compelled to help others." 

Yes, goat cheese makes me begrudged. Growl. Unrestrained merrymaking does sound nice, but no acceptance needed for that. I'm here for exploring different thought processes.

"[...] and personal experiences (which I know you value more than the sources themselves), which suggest that when we become more loving, we seem to help others more without being forced to - more that it is a natural occurrence, that is unforced."

Unforced love. I do like the sound of that. The gag ball plopping out of love's mouth. If there ever was an overused and abused word, love has had it's fair share of taking it for the team. Brittle makeup. Smudged lipstick. Always giving when asked to perform.

"If service sounds like being a butler, perhaps I can find a better word, that doesn't sound like slaving away.  Perhaps it would simply be "helping," -  helping each other."

But that kind of makes STS sound dull and nonthreatening though. Helping yourself. May eventually lead to bridging the gap between the extremes. No more cat and mouse games.

I tried Salvia as a direct result of this thread. I did all the research, got all the goodies, and applied all the best practices.

I was trying to use it as  a shortcut to spiritual experiences.

To cut a long story short, its not for me. It didn't have anywhere near the effect I'm looking for.

It is extremely strong. Firstly it kicked me like a mule and secondly it kicked me like a donkey so that I thought I wasn't coming back. Then I gave it a week off and tried again more conservatively (more conservative dose).

The effects are centered somewhere in my  body which doesn't give me any fulfillment, insight, or anything. My imagination was disconnected from the effect, and the effect centered exclusively in my physical body.

To summarize: for me a very unpleasant experience (and I even gave it another chance), I don't even think I could grow to like the experience. I'm giving it a miss.

Its a pity though, because I was hoping it was going to be a shortcut for me. I guess it affects different people differently.

(I've used tons of LSD, etc etc etc)

One last word: Anyone who tries this stuff, be very careful with dose. Start out small, and keep increasing in small increments until you get the effect. Otherwise you may land up wetting your pants.

I can completely understand your reaction. Honestly MOST people will probably react the way you did. I'm only a little better off, I don't hate it but it doesn't really do much to me except hallucinate and help me lose my mind for a little while. All this drug talking is going to make me start dexing again so help me God. It's better if I stay away from this topic to be honest.

I suspect that I overreacted to the affects of the drug. I think you have to get used to it before you start understanding how to use it.

I am giving it another whole-hearted go! And I think it is going to become more and more enjoyable.

Be sure to post your experience!