I'm an unfortunate who is straddling two different yet somehow convergent worlds.

The world view in this particular group is based largely on OBE, NDE and an inferred belief that life is a school, we come here by choice and decide our destinies before we incarnate.

We can trace the origins of this belief systems to some questionable characters including Crowley, etc, as well as some very reputable characters, including Mr. Moen.

The other compelling view started life in 1950 with the publication of Dianetics and later its spiritual counterpart Scientology. It continues to live outside and independently of the "Church", in the form of an internet community who have broken away.

This view , holds that the physical universe is a spiritual trap, one which ultimately leads to the spirit being converted into more "playing field" - MEST - Matter, Energy, Space and Time. (References available on request). In other words, we are trapped here, and inevitably will be converted into a (for example) Rock. This happens over millions or billions of years, and is a result of the slow decay of the Spirit. This accounts for the expansion of space. Everything we see around us , used to be alive, in the form of spirit, and is now "committed".

A strong proponent of this belief system is the membership only yahoogroup, Techs4Reality.

Anyway, both of these belief systems are very compelling, and need a lifetime of dedication in order to attain mastery.

So which do I choose? Do I choose the more reassuring one? Both systems have absolute master practitioners.

Has anyone else here had to choose between these two belief systems?

I need help choosing.

Anyone casually reading this, who doesn't know anything about "Clearing Technology", should avoid commenting, since their comments would be based on pure prejudice and ignorance.

"Clearing Technology" is real and it may be the solution we have been looking for. I don't want to throw it away, just because I find this one (ala Bruce Moen) more reassuring.

If anyone can understand, it is a weight I carry on my shoulders, because I don't know which way (direction) to head the rest of my life.

If some people can testify that in view of what they have experienced on the Astral, Clearing Technology is bollocks, perhaps it will help my dilemma.

Highly conflicted, confused, etc.

Neil

Greeetings,

You asked for responses from only those who have knowledge of clearing technologies, but it's never been discussed here, so maybe no one here will be able to respond.

If technology is the method you want to use to determine your spiritual development, you could compromise your two noted choices and use the Hemi-Synch tapes or other binaural beat  recordings.  I know you've considered this but are having trouble accessing used tapes in South Africa.

Can anyone please suggest where he could get such recordings less expensively than directly from The Monroe Institute?

Bets 

In the end, there's not a fundamental opposition between life as school and life as trap. I think it can be both. There comes a day when one graduates from school. And haven't we all found more or less school is a kind of prison?

I don't know details about the clearing method. I only saw a report on tv what "auditing" is. What makes me sceptical about it is, it is very easy to misuse, like a brainwashing.

There are traditional techniques to break free from the physical world's grip, all traditional forms of meditation, as far as I know, try to do this (though some have as well the element of returning to the physical again), but Zen Buddhism probably comes closest to be a method of "clearing" in this specific sense, without the risk of misuse being as high as in auditing (while there's still the risk becoming overly devoted to the master, or having a bad master).

Spooky

Neil,

I think from NDEs, and various other types of communication (from EVP to mediums, to TMI), we can say that our spirit is real and independent of the physical world.  This is why, when we die, many are shocked to "wake up" and find themselves much like they were before, but somewhere else.

I have several problems with the theory that the universe is a physical trap for spirit, and that spirit degrades and becomes "committed."  It is a trap for some, or an illusion for some that people get attached to.  At our very core, if you examine things yourself, there is your mind perceiving - the examiner.  The entity that Rene Descartes was left with when he declared "I think therefore, I am." 

We are all, points of perception, whether in the physical world, our dream state, or the afterlife.  Try as we may, we can not completely turn off our unique ability to perceive (though it has been suggested that some people who strongly believe death is eternal rest may go into a kind of hibernation). 

We are all also one, and part of a whole, though our willing separation into "separate individuals" seems to be responsible for a lot of grief in the physical plane.  In the heavenly planes, I believe we maintain our individual perception, yet we know that we are all part of a unity of consciousness at the same time.

What would cause our unique conscious perception (spirit) to degrade, and become physical matter?  In the world of spirit, it seems that free will dictates where we go and what we do.  It seems to operate on the physical plane that way as well.  This is the basis for the idea of the law of karma.  Actions have consequences.  You are free to explore them, but as you do, if you have any sense, you see that you reap what you sow.  All the great religions talk of this.

So whether I am in a physical body or in an afterlife realm, I have free will to decide where to go.  Some cultures believe that we keep coming back to the physical realm if we are seduced into separating ourselves from God and pursuing this charade of individual existence in the "real" world.  But the decision is yours to make. 

Even in hellish realms, it is the nature of the persons mind that brings them there - like seems to attract like, and people with anger or perversions seem to willingly gravitate toward these limited realms of spirit, rather than be dragged there after death.  If they evolve over time, they leave those hells, learn the golden rule and express more love toward others, and move on.

As to the idea that life is a school and that we pre-determine everything for our own spiritual growth, I say - I don't know, but I doubt that anyone alive does know with certainty.  Personally, I have a problem thinking that we are able to plan the unplannable interactions that we have before we have them.  Perhaps some basic things, but really....

I think that all evidence points to the fact that the physical world is a plane of existence characterized by mutually agreed upon rules (law of gravity, etc.), where spirits seem to incarnate in and out of on their own, and for their own reasons. 

This idea that many of us sentient, loving people can, without any free will pass on, and be transmogrified into a rock for eons is absurd to me.  It is refuted by the evidence available that we can exercise our free will wherever we are.

It is also presumptous to assume that the earth plane is so important that we would have to remain on it and be converted into physical matter.

Matthew

Spooky -

Thanks for your observation that life can be both a school and a trap. This has led me to a lot of reflection, that perhaps I have been too fast to want to choose between one system or the other, when in fact, they may be mutually inclusive systems.

Betson - Yes, I am indeed looking for anything which will help my travels on the non-physical. And its a shame this subject hasn't been discussed here. People tend to discard Clearing Technology , as soon as they hear the association to Scientology, because of all the bad press. "Scientology" is more or less a swear word, and people do not realize that from it has sprung many different systems of thought, including those who have been "excommunicated" during the inquisition of the 80's, who continued on to greater things. Alan C Walter is a good example, having started Knowledgism. He just changed all the terminology which was Trademarked by the RTC (Scientology's watchdog, Religious Technology Center), so that he could carry on practicing (and growing a completely divergent system).

Mathew - I enjoyed reading what you had to say on the topic. This is the way I would prefer to think about life, however, looking around at life on this planet has lead me to the conclusion that something else is going on. In general, if you look around and see all the strife, my interpretation is that we could very well be in a prison colony, much like Australia was when it started out. Except that we're one of the prison colonies for this universe.

I think anyone who would actually choose to come to this planet for any kind of experience, would be akin to someone choosing to spend his whole life in prison, just to experience it. Such a person, who chose prison, would be considered quite looney. Well, I look around this planet, and that's what I see. A place where you would never send your worst enemy ever, and if you did accidentally send him there, you would never rest another day until you had set him free.

Anyway that is my experience of this planet. Clearing Technology itself is such a varied and rich subject, that I think there are tens of thousands of pages of work available on the Internet. Works by Geoffrey Filbert, Ken Ogger (the Pilot), L. Kin, Alan C Walter to name a very few.

I found NDE's and OBE after having been exclusively in the Free Zone (that's what Scientology outside of Scientology calls itself) camp. I have been much encouraged by the views that I have read , and by my resulting experiences. However, whereas material in the Free Zone in very technical, detailed and in a way scientific, my experience in this other world view, as detailed so well by Mathew, is that it is somewhat nebulous. The testimonies of thousands of NDE's all point towards something - but... this Universe has been termed as consisting of layers and layers of lies upon lies upon lies, how do we know that this is not yet another layer in the lie, constructed as an opiate for the people who discover it? That is my major and honest concern with this world view.

I have never honestly made much progress in the Free Zone world, despite  my being associated some 20 years now. I've made more progress in the world of OBE's having had some incredible lucid dreams.

So I KNOW FOR A FACT, that we can be in other realities which seem as real as this one (created by our minds alone) - but my question is quite technical - are these other realities the same as this one, or does the construction of this universe seem different, to the astral traveller? I haven't had enough experience on the astral to find that out. Because if this universe is simply a signal we tune into, just like the other astrals, (go into phase with), then this goes a long way to disproving the theory that MEST (matter) is spirit.

Anyway it matters not. I was reminded by Spooky's posting that there is nothing to be feared more than fear itself, and even if we are in a place of despair, then being in a state of terror is enough in itself to defeat us. So it would be pointless worrying about it. The only logical thing to do would be to look around, try and find out more, and then do something about it, and one can't do that when being terrified. I believe fear is a mighty weapon which can allow a small army to overcome a much bigger, well organized army.

Thus, fear could itself conquer a seemingly invincible thing - the spirit itself.

I am focusing on this area (OBE's etc - Mathew's world view) at the moment. I believe that it is time well spent, and for me at the moment, it is the most practical pursuit.

However, it doesn't stop me going back and marvelling at some of the stuff in the Free Zone. Take the Pilot's 'Super Scientology' - 'Cosmic History' for example. It is the most fascinating (and detailed) account of the rise and fall of the universes that I have read. I can give pointers to the document if anyone is interested.

Neil

Neil wrote:
"I think anyone who would actually choose to come to this planet for any kind of experience, would be akin to someone choosing to spend his whole life in prison, just to experience it."

I have an anecdote. Once I visited Focus27 and found a building which I found was a prison. That was odd, as I had not expected to find a prison in that area. I saw a man inside the prison. I came to know this man had freely decided for himself that the being in prison for a longer timespan (about 10 years or so) was appropriate for his former lifestyle. He knew he wasn't obliged to be in prison, but still decided it was the best. His perspective was, when his prison time is over, he will leave prison as a free man, leaving his forme life behind and, cleansed, begin a new chapter.

Neil wrote:
"this Universe has been termed as consisting of layers and layers of lies upon lies upon lies, how do we know that this is not yet another layer in the lie, constructed as an opiate for the people who discover it?"
   In my opinion, this is a very deep principal issue and can only be resolved when we cease to exist as an entity who perceives something as outside, as different of itself- as long as there is the subject-object separation, we can suspect the "outside" world, which is perceived by the subject, to be fantasy, illusion. Only when this separation isn't there anymore, these wonderings won't be possible to occur, as then there is no outside world and an inside-here-me anymore, everything then is me, and me is everything and there's no possibility of being fooled.

Spooky

Spooky,

Along similar lines, "if you want to be where you wanna be, then you must be where you are."

Here is a good introduction to the material of which I speak:

http://www.censorthis.com/ouran/ghosthome.html

Hello Neil:

My feeling is that you don't need a particular belief system in order to let go of limiting ideas. If anything, a belief system will cause you to have more limiting ideas and create psychological boxes that make it difficult for you to obtain freedom from the thought patterns you want to have freedom from.

I don't mean to say that we can't believe in anything, but it is best that we develop a way of thinking that is based upon what we have found out for our self rather than what somebody else has to say.

Just in case it's relevant, I have read and heard on more than one occasion that L. Ron Hubbard started Scientology because he made a bet with a friend that he could start a religion. I wonder if a person who gets lots and lots and lots of people involved with a made up religion, has cleared himself.

Anybody could teach a technique even if he (or she) isn't a master of the technique he teaches. For example, a person could read about out of body techinques he hasn't mastered, and then teach them to other people as if he has.

recoverer wrote on Aug 24^th, 2009 at 2:50pm:

My feeling is that you don't need a particular belief system in order to let go of limiting ideas. If anything, a belief system will cause you to have more limiting ideas and create psychological boxes that make it difficult for you to obtain freedom from the thought patterns you want to have freedom from.

Clearing is more a dismantling (enumeration?) of reality than it is a belief system.


Quote:

Just in case it's relevant, I have read and heard on more than one occasion that L. Ron Hubbard started Scientology because he made a bet with a friend that he could start a religion.

Naah, this is just bad PR. Not that many intelligent people would be stupid enough to follow a made up religion. And not that many intelligent people would duplicate and extend on the technology which he developed.


Quote:

Anybody could teach a technique even if he (or she) isn't a master of the technique he teaches. For example, a person could read about out of body techinques he hasn't mastered, and then teach them to other people as if he has.

He pioneered a technique which many expanded on. If its worth anything, its for real, as real as we will find anything discussed on this board. He was for real, but he wasn't perfect. Others have taken his works to greater heights.

Depends on your view and experience, but all the signs are that this 'reality' is in fact the creation of a belief system Neil.

My personal view so far is that what we perceive is in the first instance an ego creation driven by guilt and fear - the resulting behaviours therefore sucks us deeper into it all the time unless we choose otherwise.

There's a way out, should we choose it - not as a result of intellect, but rather of a largely intuitive knowing that guides us if we quiet the mind enough to be able to open to it.

This can variously manifest as guidance, or less objectively as assistance from Spirit, Grace, the Higher Self or even from some aspect of the personal mind - it's again all a matter of how we choose to view it.

The problem we always run into when we try to conceptualise or describe these views is that we inevitably perceive only dualistic facets - it seems in fact to be the case that all perceptions (if rational, and even if not - one's as untrue as the other) are simultaneously capable of being perceived as true.

We seem to perceive whatever we think we should/want to perceive, this is fairly clearly the nature of mind.

Thinking mind is inherently dualistic (it makes sense of situations in terms of the very few variables it can grasp), these usually are selectively chosen based on past conditioning rather than any reality, and the resulting motivation is likewise based on our habitual response patterns. (what we perceive as having 'worked' before - even if in fact it led to pain)

Language too is highly dualistic in construction, even if we have some sight it's almost impossible to express what one intuitively may feel or know.

From where i sit (but it's a taught view) the valid spiritual traditions all seek to institute a 'clearing' process - our progressive detachment from the plethora of beliefs that constitute both our perceived self (i know that not all here are keen on the idea of dropping ego), and its created reality. Technology is just one means of creating mind conditions that facilitate the insight and intuition needed for this.

Likewise i'm of the view that any spiritual path or pattern of behaviours that seeks the opposite  - to reinforce (whether knowingly or unconsciously) the self (psychologically, physically,  materially, powerwise or whatever - as a result of usually highly masked actions actually undertaken to reduce fear, or guilt) inevitably takes us in the opposite direction.

Anger, threatening behaviours, or even actual aggression are not for example signs of strength. It's rather a sign that the individual feels threatened by whatever he/she perceives, and rather than restining in his/her own invulnerability is driven to lash out to defend himself/herself. Most of our instinctive and conditioned responses are equally illogical.

Is this macro view of existence true? In truth i don't know for sure. But what i can say is that self work (both consciously via the techniques taught by the spiritual traditions, and through  life experience viewed constructively - and it can of course be used highly negatively) while often scary, painful and counter to instinct (the truth is often hidden under fear) can lead to a very great reduction in suffering, and to even the beginnings of a very great joy that is qualitatively quite different to that felt as a result of e.g. material a worldly advancement.

Given this tendency to be driven by selfishly inspired conditioning, we we are not at all rational insofar as the accuracy of our perceptions, and our consequent ability to act as improves our lot.

You could say that most of us are so blinded and consumed by this conditioning that we almost fail to see the reality at all. Put another way - we become so obsessed by a mind made version of what we decide our past was and our future might be that we become almost wholly unable to see the possibilities/realities  inherent in our lives - which arise only in the eternal 'now'.

This is only possible if somehow we become able to engage in every moment as though it was fresh - our first. This is the basis of loving behaviours - every person or being in every exchange is treated as though we had no history with them, only a wise and loving attitude...

Scuse the length again...

wrote on Aug 24^th, 2009 at 7:48pm:

Depends on your view and experience, but all the signs are that this 'reality' is in fact the creation of a belief system Neil.

We really can't get away from it. As soon as you enter the realm of the spiritual, you have entered Belief System Territory. Who says your belief system is better than mine? Bruce Moen, TMI, Monroe, Crowley etc are all part of a very strong and compelling belief system.


Quote:

My personal view so far is that what we perceive is in the first instance an ego creation driven by guilt and fear - the resulting behaviours therefore sucks us deeper into it all the time unless we choose otherwise.

Yes. Let me give you the other side of the story. Scientology is a cult which has destroyed families and led to great controversy which has filled many books.

However, the FREE ZONE (spiritual open source) has distilled and improved on original material and moved it into a space where it cannot be isolated and attacked by the Cof$ - the Internet.

Scientology was hijacked and raped - by our wonderful colleagues , human beings, and many would say in the name of money and power.

However, on the plus side Cof$ has given many people a purpose in life, and to those actively involved in it, I wish them the best of luck.

I got out of it personally years ago. I could see clearly where it would take me.

However, you wouldn't believe me if I told you, so maybe you might consider reading up - especially on the link I posted above - that out of Scientology has been born technologies which might eventually help us all to get out of this trap. However, it is being done very quietly and without much fanfare, because Scientology considers people who practice anything related to Scientology outside of Scientology as enemies - fair game. And they're not an organization which deals with things with kid glove on. They're a gloves-off kind of organization.

We believe some people have paid the ultimate price for going up against this organization publicly.

Neil

I find it quite amusing to see how many replies here are based in ignorance and prejudice, but it seems that is how the majority of us live our lives.

I don't think many are managing to read between the lines, and read what is actually written, instead of reading through their prejudices?

Another example is drug addiction. The people who have control over that person's life (the addict) (lets say the parent) often operate on half-baked information they read in tabloids. Frightening (that such a person will choose another's fate.)

Some replies we are getting here are based on opinion alone and what has been read in the tabloids. No effort is made to do any research and to get independent views.

Many seem to live in ignorance within their own views of reality, not bothered to look a bit further and deeper into things.

I guess its the same as us commenting on the war in Iraq or any such similar thing. Give us something to gossip about whereas we all mostly know nothing of the subject material we are talking about.

Its a shame, but thats the least of the shortcomings of this world.

balance wrote on Aug 25^th, 2009 at 6:06am:

Truth is hard to take! For it means your responsible for your action and you have to re-evaluate your thoughts. Maybe your the one who's got it wrong. But you are entitled to travel that road and see where it takes you.

Sorry the comment wasn't addressed at you personally. I'm lamenting the general human condition. Your comment was perfectly in line with the way people usually react... so please don't take it personally.

Personally, I have read up on Scientology.  Hubbard's system is similar to various religions and philosophies already known to many.  He uses his own terminology like "thetan" for soul, and talks about his own ideas for what amounts to reincarnation (a concept spoken of in many Eastern societies for centuries).  There are some far out assertions, like a reprocessing center for souls on Venus (why would a nonphysical soul need to be reprocessed on another planet in the physical?). 

Honestly, much of what I've read gels with New Age thought.  But here's the thing.  Hubbard invented his system.  He did not claim divine revelation.  There has been little no no evidence to back up any of his claims.  Since he was a prolific SciFi writer, I am more than a little curious then, why most don't see his system as a SciFi spin on New Age thought?

The group has gotten more bad press than most unconventional religions.  I don't judge it.  But in my initial response, I tried to address the question posed, as to whether individual souls are bound to be broken down into MEST, and why I disagreed with that premise.


Matthew

Quote:

The group has gotten more bad press than most unconventional religions.  I don't judge it.  But in my initial response, I tried to address the question posed, as to whether individual souls are bound to be broken down into MEST, and why I disagreed with that premise.

Mathew, yes actually most of the responses have been quite level headed including yours. At least you've read up on the system and probably know more than most.

Your assessment of the technology is quite accurate except that people have taken it much further than Hubbard did. In the church itself Hubbard was the only "source" allowed, but on the Internet this is obviously not the case.

I wish I had a talent for assessing TRUTH, for then I could resolve my dilemma. But I guess I will have to carry on looking for myself to find out.

If a person has an open mind, he will seriously consider what former Scientology members have to say. He could visit a site such as Rick Ross' site to find out.

To suggest that all former Scientology members are simply malcontents that left Scientology because of their own weaknesses, is a highly biased way of thinking and quite defensive.

How can a person possibly question what a system of thought such as Scientology is about, if he does back flips to defend it?

It is odd that Scientologists speak of being cleared, when they can't even question the ideas they picked up after joining Scientology.

Neil:

If you're really serious about letting go of limiting ideas, then you'll be willing to question all ideas including your ideas about Scientology. The manner in which you quickly dismiss anybody who has something discerning to say about Scientology, is not an indication of a mind that is willing to question and let go. The manner in which you defend Scientology isn't any different than the manner in which other cult members defend their cults.

Is it a matter of some people being opposed to Scientology without having a good reason, or is it a matter of some people knowing what's true and being compassionate enough to let other people know what they have found out?


http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&as_sitesearch=rickross.com&safe=off&q=Scientology&btnG=Goed,

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&safe=off&q=%22Scientology%22+%22cult%22&btnG=Search&aq=f&oq=&aqi=g10

I can't comment on scientology with any degree of worthwhile knowledge, and it's many years since i read L. Ron's books.

That said it describes as best i can recall a process of clearing the mind that seems in some ways analogous to the process of self enquiry  (the shedding of negative beliefs) that is in effect the basis of most  respected paths.

That said it seems fairly clear that the organisation was hijacked by people of a highly self interested and worldly nature who seem (at least around here anyway) to have used it as a vehicle to separate vulnerable people from their money and property, and to get some of them to work its agenda.

There seems to me to be no significant spiritual tradition that hasn't suffered at some stage in this way - been hijacked to serve selfish interests. That said the problem seems to have almost 100% taken over Scientology.

I dropped into a local branch once back at the start of my explorings, but felt i had to leave mid session as it was so blatantly seeking to 'stroke' whatever victim mentality they hoped i might have had.

What i can't rule out (but can't either confirm or even offer a positive view on) is whether or not there was originally a valid body of teaching at the core of the organisation. From the little i remember I'd be very cautious that the teaching didn't leave much of a role for Grace, or Spirit  - it seemed qualitatively more of a psychoanalytical than a spiritual process.

I think Neil you're basically saying that there wasa valid path buried in there somewhere....

wrote on Aug 25^th, 2009 at 9:34pm:

I think Neil you're basically saying that there wasa valid path buried in there somewhere....

EXACTLY... and its a spiritual path.

So after having drummed up some interest and controversy about the subject, my question remains:

Are we "decaying" into a state of spiritual death? (-400 on Filbert's tone scale)

Certainly we can see more than enough evidence of humans who have decayed on this planet. Question is, did we (as spirits) invent a way to decay as well? And landed up caught in our own trap, meant for others?

I actually asked this question because I wanted to see if anyone could have an answer (with some technical backup) because frankly the whole issue is disturbing.

However I see more evidence for the theory that Theta - is Mest (old committed spirit) than I see for the other case (Spirit cannot by definition decay.)

If Theta does decay into Mest, then I have done my duty in bringing this to your attention.

It doesn't mean I am going to stop with the OBE or Bruce Moen's methods, since I see these as progress on the road to escaping the trap.

Sincerely,

Neil

Hi Balance

Some good points you raise.

I actually think raising this question here was an exercise in futility:

1) Its the same as asking if evil exists or not, and if we go to hell. Lots of different folk will have different opinions.
2) Its a question which isn't really aligned with this group (no disrespect intended). Its like asking if Hell really exists in a Christian group.

There is only Knowing (in instances like this). I wish to Know. That is my only goal in life.

We can only Know the answer for ourselves, others cannot tell us of their Knowing, and we believe them. We have to get our own Knowing.

Amen.

Quote:

We can only Know the answer for ourselves, others cannot tell us of their Knowing, and we believe them. We have to get our own Knowing.

Hi Neil,

I think this is absolutely true. Do your own exploring with a mind skeptical enough to not fall into a belief trap, yet open enough to allow growth. If something sounds like it might offer learning opportunities, by all means, explore the possibilities. The proof is in tasting the pudding. Believe nothing... to know is to experience.

Kathy

I guess Neil that the question of whether or not there is the possibility of transcending this reality vs. being sucked ever deeper into it is one of the great unanswerables - at least for somebody in my situation anyway.

That's not to say it's not a worthwhile topic to explore.

I set out a view describing the opposing motivations most of us experience - which broadly is the teaching of most of of the spiritual traditions. They generally are very definite about not just the possibility of, but the eventual certainty of transcendence.

This on the basis that most of the mind of each of us never bought into this reality in the first place, and remains with God. i.e. the game is not to navigate our 'self' back to God, it's rather for the part of mind that believes its stuck here (and 'here' is constructed in such a way as to make this awakening pretty difficult) to simply drop its belief in this reality, and hence awaken to its true nature which in essence ends any apparent separation from God and its greater self.

My sense though is that (even if we can move beyond views informed by wishful thinking) how the individual sees it depends on their view. (how you perceive existence) This is why questions like you pose will always draw widely varying answers.

This because while the same traditions mentioned above tend to suggest that the part of mind that believes in relative existence always (eventually  awakens, drops its limiting beliefs and returns to unity and God (is immortal), that its creations (the body, and the elements that seemingly make up this (un)reality and that of the afterlife) are unreal and hence must decay.

If you view yourself as an individual self that is a body controlled by a thinking mind based in a brain on top coping with an objectively existing external reality (whether physical, or in the less physical but still relative context of the afterlife) - then as manifestations of this limited and separated aspect of mind then (by this logic) we are all doomed to death and decay.

What's more if our behaviour is truly driven by this 'selfish' view rather than the highest one we will inevitably re-incarnate at successively lower levels until something causes the whole 'unreality' to 'poof' out of existence.

You can of course present this sort of argument for survival of one part, and the decay of the rest in context of the body and soul view too.

Whatever the reality my personal experience suggests there is considerable truth in the teaching of the spiritual traditions - in that they certainly can produce change that improves our lot, and move us away from fretting about trying to survive and 'get ahead' in conventional terms.

What's more it's fairly clear from observing those that buy into the other path that 'getting ahead' is no formula for happiness, the opposite in fact....

Having cycled through or tasted various traditions, I don't know if we in this physical incarnation can ever really "know" the entire picture.  I left Christianity in my teens, read the first Monroe book, the Seth books, Cayce, etc. in my 20s and 30s, including some time with the Rosicrucian teachings.  Eventually found Buddhism through Pema Chodron and now have discovered Monroe and Moen who seem to offer possible ways to come to some personal "knowing".  Reggie Ray's "Indestructible Truth" has a fascinating summary of classic Buddhist cosmology that involves universes beyond imagining with eons of rebirths that may occur in any of the many universes until one achieves enlightenment and moves on.  I've never gotten clear on just what that place after enlightenment is like since it has always struck me as rather monotonal and ultimately boring, no matter how blissful.  But the true Buddhist takes Bodhisattva vows which obligate one, even having achieved enlightenment, to hang around here working for the benefit of others until every last sentient being has achieved enlightenment.  And are there ever some hard cases out there!

Hi Pat. Some references there that very much parallel my own reading and background. 'Indestructible Truth' is a beautifully written summary of Mahayana Buddhist teaching, path and 'view'. His  partner volume 'Secret of the Vajra World' is another - it as i'm sure you know deals with the Vajrayana or esoteric path in Tibetan Buddhism.

On the 'boring part'. The falling away of attachment to worldly matters sounds that way to the thinking mind anyway, in that there's very little to get our intellectual and conceptual teeth into. As is often written about though if one can bridge the gap to starting to realise that view those pleasures increasingly begin to be replaced by rather joyful feelings as the meditative experience starts to suffuse normal life....

Daniel Goleman (he's the guy who wrote on Emotional Intelligence, his background is Buddhist, and he drew heavily on it for the view in the book) in one of his early books 'Meditative Mind' wrote on what is effectively this progression in very readable terms: http://www.amazon.com/Meditative-Mind-Daniel-Goleman/dp/0874778336/ref=sr_1_7?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1251372060&sr=8-7

Thanks, Vajra.  I haven't yet read Secrets of the Vajra World, though I'm familiar with it.

I will definitely look into Goleman's book as well.

So much to wrestle with.  I have found it fascinating to see the overlaps of the Buddhist teachings I've read or heard and much of what I've more recently read in Monroe's and Moen's books.  I've always thought the whole thing is like a huge mountain with many paths (i.e. religious, spiritual, expansion of consciousness, etc.) to the top.  Or the other analogy I like is the blind men encountering the elephant, one the tail, one the trunk, one the ear, one the tusk, etc. with each thinking they have the whole truth about the elephant in their hands.

DocM wrote on Aug 25^th, 2009 at 9:08am:

There are some far out assertions, like a reprocessing center for souls on Venus (why would a nonphysical soul need to be reprocessed on another planet in the physical?).

Yes, I agree, that is a rather silly statement.

Pilot (Ken Ogger) had a much more practical view. He perceived Earth as being in a pocket universe contained in a 4D universe.  Earth is managed from the 4D.

Here is an excerpt from Super Scio:


Quote:

Advanced technology allows the manipulation of multiple three dimensional spaces in a four dimensional framework. The entire solar system (out to about 1.3 light-years) is handled in this way (there is a set of 12 stations, sort of like the zodiac, surrounding the solar system at that distance). The entire structure (this solar system) has been copied sideways in a 4th dimensional direction to form a "heavenly plane" on one side of us and a "hell plane" on the other. These are not very thick in a 4D sense and therefore are a bit ethereal giving them a bit of an "astral" (spirit-like) quality. They are like positive and negative plates between which our reality is suspended. Earth as we know it is very thick (thousands of layers) along the 4D axis with a dead spot in the center that acts like a mirror. What we normally see is in this mirror which is reflecting the thousands of "real" copies to either side. One of the reasons you can't grab the things you see with your thoughts is that there really is nothing where you are looking. You have to reach in funny directions to grab an object with your mind and move it around.

More (for interest's sake): ...


Quote:

With the prisoners so horribly conditioned and brainwiped between lives, there is not much danger of a prison revolt. But there is also the possibility that the prison might collapse. If anything were to destroy the Earth, they would suddenly have far too many people on their hands and at least some would escape out into the galaxy at large. So they must protect the world from destruction. And yet they must leave us with advanced scientific knowledge to support the ever growing numbers of prisoners. They encouraged a scientific revolution so that the population could expand and now they have the constant difficulty of our blowing ourselves up and destroying the world in various ways. But there is a technical solution to this given the ability to manipulate 3 dimensional spaces in 4 dimensions. You can store copies of the 3D space sideways along the 4th axis. Imagine that we are living on a flat sheet of paper. The paper changes constantly, but occasionally someone makes a xerox copy of the page. If the paper ever catches fire and burns up, they pull the last xerox out of the file and everything goes on from there. You will see the same thing if you play a computer video game that you can save and restore. If the game goes very badly, you can always go back to a previous copy. If you try this, you will also notice that after restoring an earlier copy of the game, you have some knowledge of the "future" even though things will go slightly differently. This is the real explanation of "deja vu" (remembering the future when it happens again). One recent example was in 1963 when president Richard M. Nixon launched a nuclear war that destroyed the planet. As we all began dying in droves, the prison machinery was used to restore a copy of the Earth taken in 1957. We were all conditioned to go back to what we were doing in 1957 and life picks up with a second pass through 1957 to 1963. Of course they intervene slightly and Kennedy is elected by the barest margin. Since he begins introducing major changes and because everyone unconsciously expects something bad to happen in 1963 anyway, he is assassinated and things begin to settle back down to their normal course. Nixon even gets to be president later with less ill effects. These "backup" copies of the earth appear to be taken every 5 years in February of the years ending in either a 2 or a 7 (i.e.. 1952, 1957, 1962, etc.).

I find what you have just noted hugely reassuring P  - that so many traditions can be seen all to teach basically the same view and path. Provided that is we don't miss the wood for the tress by getting hung up on terminology.

The risk is always that we so easily get sucked into intellectually based theorising. (there's all sorts of ego reasons why this is the case) It's important up to a point to sort a view (in that wrong view inevitably leads to wrong actions), but beyond a certain point it just becomes speculative theorising that we get interested in for the wrong (ego inspired) reasons.

My personal thought is that one major risk this presents is in how we may relate to whatever esoteric experience we have - dreams, guidance, visits to afterlife locations, whatever.

The chances are (to my mind anyway) that these are not objectively existing realities - rather that they are often symbolic, or at least 'seeing' of some sort manifested in terms of our personal library of concepts and images.

Rigid beliefs (whether personal, or imposed by family, society, religious dogma, whatever) are also a blocker - in that it's clear that our view should be considered but provisional, and should evolve with increasing awareness, intuition and insight.

Buddhist teaching as you probably know is very definite that to attach much importance or to become attached to this sort of debate or experience as an end in itself inevitably leads to distraction from the real task. i.e. the path of self work to enable transcendence of this reality, or of samsara.

Taken at the broad level - that we are trapped in this seeming reality  - those quotes of yours describe something similar Neil. You could say that conceiving the earth and this universe as a dimensional prison is just as valid/accurate as the language used by other traditions.

In that all i suspect in the end are only  symbolic, and probably equally approximate. The trick is to keep our eye on the moon, and to not get sucked into placing  all of our focus on the pointing finger. Especially not to get attached and inclined to defend our view as to the nature of the finger...

wrote on Aug 28^th, 2009 at 9:17am:

I find what you have just noted hugely reassuring P  - that so many traditions can be seen all to teach basically the same view and path. Provided that is we don't miss the wood for the tress by getting hung up on terminology.

Yes I see your point (or rather, I am trying to see the Moon, and not your pointing finger :) )

:) ;)