Hi Guys uncle Alan has been away debating his other love that being philosophy

My question , is the soul eternal , has our awareness, mind or soul always existed for eternities past into eternities future

Some Christians  belief that God will simply annihilate the the bad and bring into heaven the good

Another Christan believe is those not found in the book of life will be thrown into the lake of fire to be tormented day and night forever (Eternal hell)

I do not agree with these bleak views about the afterlife, I think it is we who define our status in the afterlife, God does not put anyone into the darker hell like realms , they put themselves there

Like wise we enter the glorious realms of light color joy bliss ecstasy by, our actions during earthly life

I cannot be all that bad, during my near death event I saw both hell like regions , but only because I requested to see them.

Mostly what I saw near death experiences were heavenly dimensions of love, beauty, peace and a sense of almost omnipotence power and wonder that simply beyond earthly description

LOVE YA GUYS

ALAN

You exist. That's it. No beginning, nor end. You are.
As for many of the so called Christian beliefs, along with many others....They are more like something you have to scrape from the bottom of your shoes after a walk through the park..

That's a very fundamental question. I suspect Alan that as in all of these things the answer depends whether your view is that of self based individuality, or the higher one.

Ego is in the traditions i'm used to in effect the total collection of beliefs that give rise to the perception of the former. (selfhood) It's by definition unreal, and as a result discarded and ceases to exist with enlightenment/return to God.

It's superficial manifestations in the form of personality and physical existence get shed during the process of dissolution between incarnations (and may depending on the view seem to exist for a limited period much as they were in the 'afterlife' prior to dissolution), but core traits or karmic influences deciding both the nature of the new self and the new life environment and influences get carried forward into the next life/lives - but are presumably shed on enlightenment.

On the other hand the piece/aspect of (mostly higher and collective) mind (some of which is bought into individual physical existence, with the greater and higher part remaining in the absolute/God realm/eternal and unaffected by this) is taught as being eternal - but of course is also a single collective entity made up of all the mind contained in all living things.

Within this framework our journey is about extracting the part of mind caught in ego beliefs, and reconnecting it with this higher eternal/collective self - to reconstitute it all as a single mind in the God realm.

So the higher mind/reconstituted self is eternal and can never die, but the egotistical beliefs that mean we perceive a self at this level most certainly do. Most on dissolution after death, but even the resulting karmic tendencies  must be dropped to allow the return to God.

This is why enlightenment/realisation is in so many spiritual traditions described as in essence a death, and as something we find fearful in life. (leading to the concept of the need to be a spiritual warrior and so on)  Death of the ego of course.

Is this all for real? I don't truly know. The ego/higher self framework is a very powerful way to describe what happens on the spiritual path, and it's very possible to experience meditative states that seem to separate the physical and the intellectual mind from the watcher, or higher awareness - but perhaps that's only an interpretation.

I begin to think the soul is eternal, whatever the soul is. I begin to think the soul has many other personalities than the one presently considered as 'existing'. However, ultimately, they are one. When the oneness is recognized, happiness is present.

Alan,

Bruce Moen claims to have learned by direct astral experience that soul annihilation sometimes occurs.  His observations about annihilation are verified by the Being of Light (Christ) in atheist Howard Storm's NDE.  Hawkeye's pontifications can be ignored pending demonstrations of why contrary insights from other astral experiences must be dismissed.  

Hawkeye has no corroborated clue as to how and when the soul begins or ends. In fact, my Lemurian channels in the center of the Earth assure me that they created humans as soul food (Robert Monroe's "loosh") for them to consume after our passing!   :-X  So they are amused by Hawkeye's dogmatic wishful thinking: "There is not one of us who is not an alien or has not been one."  

Don

 

When it comes to the examples Bruce provided, these were souls who are so closed to love, they couldn't be helped.  It is a shame that such a thing happens, because an eternal life of glory isn't something a soul would want to lose.  Why would a soul take the chance of incarnating into a life that has a lot of negative influences, if it understood that it might get so lost it would be eventually destroyed?

I've written before about how I help cleanse lost souls so they can move on to a higher level of being. These souls include souls that get lost in the way the souls Bruce Moen spoke of.  One time I was shown the image of a famous evil man who shall remain nameless.  His energy was connected to my energy and then a stream of light energy was run through the two of us.  A couple of weeks later I had a dream where a negative minded person wouldn't listen to what another person had to say. Then the person who tried to do the explaining saved the life of this negative minded person. This being the case, the negative minded person decided to listen to the person who saved him. At the end of the dream I experienced the spirit I helped at my side, and the two of us looked back at the dream. He said: "You receive from me." This statement puzzled me until I understood what it meant.  The spirit I helped had become a part of the light, and I receive from the light.

I figure if the spirit I helped the light cleanse could be helped despite the kind of person he was, then just about anybody can be helped.  Why the spirits Bruce Moen and Howard Storm speak about don't get helped I don't know.  Perhaps there aren't enough people who are willing to allow themselves to become vehicles for cleansing. One thing that has enabled me to have the courage to do so is that I feel so good about my connection to Christ and beings like him, I know they wouldn't get me involved with a process that isn't safe. This has been proven over and over again.

Regarding what Hawkeye wrote, I know there are some imperfect things about Christianity; however, I figure a lot of people have avoided lower realms partly because of their Christian faith.  If it is possible for somebody to know years ahead of time that 2012 will happen (?), perhaps it is possible for the divine powers that be to know ahead of time how Christianity would evolve, yet they went ahead and had Jesus do as he did. Perhaps because they understood that in the long run things would work out for the best.

A late P.S. The spirit that was helped was stuck in his self-created darkness for a while before he was helped.

I've pondered this question a bit and it seems to me that we're still talking about a transformation. I seem to recall Bruce writing either in his books or on here somewhere of something sort of analogous to scrubbing the hard drive of the disk, but if its information that creates consciousness then maybe it does die, ceases to exist. If it can happen to one it could happen to any one and isn't it more like a probe gets too far gone? Not really destroyed but lost? I'm still working the idea that consciousness is eternal so I gotta think on this awhile I guess.

For what it's worth (because i'm only repeating what i've been taught by others) both Buddhism and ACIM are quite clear and teach very specifically that everybody gets there (drops the obscurations of ego) in the end. That the variable is time, or number of incarnations it takes to reach awakening.

Now on the other hand neither teach the existence of a soul in the sort of individual form that most of us imagine or were taught in school. Buddhism teaches that the perception of self has no reality, that it's in practice the result of the coincidence of a number of aggregates that create the appearance of self hood, but that viewed more carefully these have no permanence. That universal mind is in effect the only permanence.

I'm actually quite cautious about writings that claim to have explored the full afterlife cycle from death to birth. Robert Monroe for example writes of individuals reincarnating, but i think there are big questions as to just what exactly it is that is brought into the new life. Many of the writings i've seen may refer only to the initial stages after death and before dissolution of the self, and may only give a partial view - one which anyway is distorted by the beliefs of the viewer.

Sorry if that's not very satisfactory, or even very encouraging so far as the personal self is concerned, but i guess maybe in the end we've got to drop the need for a finite understanding of these things in the relative conceptual and 'scientific' terms we are used to as it's simply not possible. i.e. we simply don't know enough, or aren't at the intellectual level most of us operate at wired the right way to support understanding.

Perhaps the good news is that it seems we can trust that there are loving forces (by whatever name) working on our collective behalf. Maybe our task is to become able to rest easily in this knowledge.  Perhaps excessive striving to tie the situation down is itself just an impediment, and another manifestation of ego...

Regarding the aggregate thing, perhaps life is more like this.

Four beings who live according to love share love with each other.

The creative aspect of being that enables love to be created, also enables their attributes to be created.

Because each being has its own set of attributes with which to distinguish itself, each being has other beings it can share love with. Otherwise, one being would be by its lonesome self.

Since beingness didn't initially exist as love, one could say that love doesn't actually exist and choose to experience nothing at all, but what would be the point of that? Clearly attributes such as beauty, happiness, peace and love are more enjoyable to experience than mere emptiness, nothingness.

There is also the matter of what would come to the realization that there is supposedly no such thing as a particular being, if there wasn't a being to come to such a realization? A thinking being has to exist in order for a realization or a mistaken notion of a realization to come into existence.

The very fact of how we experience our lives, shows that we exist in a meaningful way. As far as I'm concerned, to deny what we are aware of, is the same as denying our awareness. Our awareness and existence work together. If there wasn't anything to be aware of, awareness would serve no purpose.

I doubt that the Buddha made contact with higher level beings, because if he had, he would've found that they do exist as distinct beings who can think and create like all get out, and it isn't a problem that they are able to do so.

Oneness doesn't mean one being all by itself. It means many beings who live so completely according to love, they don't need to have barriers between each other.

Source being might've been one being at the start, but once it decided to manifest itself in many ways, many beings came into existence, because energy was used in a way that goes beyond mere illusion.

 

But for me Don, I don't need Bruce, Bob , or Howard to believe in something. Verification by Storms visions seam a very distinct possibility of a connection with an ET. Most likly his belief that this meeting was with Christ was moved in that direction because of indoctrination through the church. The unfortunate thing is that Christianity turned into a breeding ground for homosexuals ands child molesters. And the Church was and is still willing to hide them away from prosecution. People seeking power over the weakness of others. Christianity... No thanks, you can keep it. Wouldn't that put those so called "good men" on an equal level with hmmm....Hitler? I will stick with us all being aliens, thanks. You can be a Christian if you feel the need. Again that's not saying that its all bad as I do agree that it has kept many from the lower realms, making them far easier to reach so in the end they can even be brought from that entrapment. But even the Christions speak of an existence without death of soul, in their heaven or even in their hell. I will pass on both of them and continue through to the upper levals  thanks.
We have a neighbor who has a brother who was in a bit of trouble a few years back. Hooked on heroin he robbed a bank. His get away was on a bike and needless to say he just couldn't peddle fast enough. After serving his time in jail he reunited with his brouther for Christmas. My wife and myself had them over for Christmas dinner. After dinner I turned to him and asked him if he knew what we were. He looked at me and said in a low voice..Christians. Well I never laughed so hard in my life. "Christians" I said! No, we are your neighbors.  

[Hawkeye:] "But for me Don, I don't need Bruce...or Howard to believe in something."
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Actually I think you do in this case.  Their astral experiences are filtered by radically different overviews, and yet, agree that some souls are annihilated.  You can't rationally accept what fits your preconceived New Age agenda and just arbitrarily dismiss contrary evidence by direct astral experience, especially if (as in these cases) such astral experience is accompanied by verification.    

[Hawkeye:] Verification by Storms visions seam a very distinct possibility of a connection with an ET.
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I don't know how to break this to you--you need rational grounds for such arbitrary claims. Storm's Being of Light identifies himself as Christ and confirms that identity in great detail.  

[Hawkeye:] "Most likly his belief that this meeting was with Christ was moved in that direction because of indoctrination through the church."
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You should be embarrassed to use dogmatic phrases like "most likely" when you have not read Storm's book.  Howard Storm was a religiously illiterate atheist who had no clue even about how to pray.

[Hawkeye:] "The unfortunate thing is that Christianity turned into a breeding ground for homosexuals ands child molesters. And the Church was and is still willing to hide them away from prosecution."
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First, the offending priests were gay before they became priests; they were not "bred" to be gay by the church's "breeding ground." Gays are born, not made.

Second, the gay oriention cannot be correlated with child molestation, as you suggest.  Many of these molesters were heterosexual.

Third, the glib way you generalize from the mistakes of the few to Christian leadership in general stoops to the same level of bigots who are grateful for Nazi genocide because SOME Jews have certain character flaws.  

[Hawkeye:] "People seeking power over the weakness of others. Christianity...
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This just could be the dumbest generalization ever made on this site.

'Hawkeye:] "After dinner I turned to him and asked him if he knew what we were."
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To most rational people, the high-minded nature of your question invites a less trivial answer than "your neighbor" or "a human being."
Your mocking laughter at his predictable answer just seethes with the mindless hatred I would expect from the New Age ghetto.

Don

 Vajra my friend, have you ever noticed a pattern in your posts of the word and concept of "ego" getting mentioned time, time, and time again, sometimes more than those words which represent concepts like love, Oneness, and Source?  What is real, and what is worth concentrating on more?

One of the belief systems you mention a lot, i really got into awhile myself.  I stepped back from it because i noticed a similar thing happening to me.  It was like my subconscious was getting programmed towards that of polarization.   Polarization leads to imbalance.

 That and a dream helped me to detach from it.  


 What we focus and concentrate on, we become.  It's that simple really.  

Really more focus should be on Love, Oneness, positivity, and NOT on the problems and limitations.  

 Not that it is helpful to repress the latter, but why so focus on it?   Every spiritual minded person knows what the problem is, and that it boils down to separatism/fear/selfishness in its various form and expressions.  

 Please know that i write you as a friend, and as someone who went down the same path with certain belief systems.   I know first hand how deceptively attractive certain teachings are, because of the very fact that they DO contain much basic truth.    

 Why not directly ask Yeshua himself, if he was strongly involved in the creation of certain belief systems and books?  

 Those of us who have, have gotten "no" in various ways and manners.   He did not speak and teach like that while alive, so why would he speak in such a polarized manner in a channeled book?  The more we "fight" against, and concentrate on "ego" as some kind of monster we need to slay, the more we keep it well fed and alive.  Instead, if we put our core focus on what's real and expanding in nature, eventually the lack of light aspects within us, get starved and eventually completely fades away.  

I have to say that as a Jew, I have a great respect for christianity and what is contained in the new testament.  The totality of Christ's teachings - love of neighbor and God, witholding judgment, turning the other cheek, charity, humility - these are all virtues which I aspire to, and try to teach my children.  Jesus speaks of thought creating reality in phrases such as "ask and you shall receive"   - the example of spirit or faith accomplishing anything - such as the verse about having even the faith the size of a mustard seed, and saying to a mountain to "move," and it will.  This correlates to what many spiritual explorers on this site believe and have found on their own.  In fact, I sometimes marvel how closely the teachings I have read in christianity gel with good spiritual values and my own global view of life. Sometimes my wife says I sound like I've converted to christianity, eventhough I see a harmony between Judaism and christianity and still consider myself to be Jewish.

As such, I find it offensive to speak of wiping away of christian values the way you would wipe dog poop off your shoes (sorry Hawkeye).  It would be more appropriate to say that misinformed clergy condemning people to hell, or abusing children are the "poop," not the church or teaching's of Jesus.

What you cite in the church's long history - bloodshed, child molestation, etc. are antethetical to the teachings I have read of Jesus.  The roman catholic church, as an entity was always run by men - incarnate beings prone to all the flaws and personality traits people exhibit in the real world.

The true value of christian thought, ideals and behaviour as taught in the gospels is, to any spiritual seeker clear and obvious, and free of these negative characteristics.  The failings of the men who have represented the church over the years in no way invalidates the teachings of love found in the new testament, or the the religion itself.

Matthew

You are so correct Matthew. It not the belief, its the weakness of morality of some people, both homosexual and heterosexual. Both RC priests and nuns committed these horrible acts. Along with a score of others following other religions. Its the fact that heads of the churchs were, and are more than happy to hide the problem, that is even worse.  And the real facts are that we are not talking about the few. There were many and it was spread across many of the organised religions. Faith in God is not the problem in my view. I believe in God. Its organised religion, and indoctrination that is the problem in my view. God is there for the asking. There is no need of a building or of set doctrines.
But Don...
You may need your belief of soul annihilation. Bruce may need it and so may Howard Storm. But I surely don't. You can follow your "bone" for as long as you need to. I don't believe that faith, love, belief in God needs the fear of annihilation to have God come into our lives. This twisted form of doctrine has been the problem for many years. The thought that "You must do what my religion says or you will be struck down or go to hell", or even worse. That's the dog doo. Finding God through fear...what cr-p.
What makes this Howard Storms book or visions or story truth? At one point it must have been "new age" also. Did Christ come directly to you to confirm the story? What is this evidence youtell us about? Evidence?
I did say something wrong and you make a good point. It is a breeding ground for child molesters I still say. But, "Gay" has nothing to do with it at all. I know plenty of Gays who are not child molesters.  And yes, heterosexual perverts are there also. Just like everywhere. But having the church hide them from prosecution,... ya thats a good thing.(Not) And why do you say a few. We are talking of hundreds over the years. Its time to face the facts Don and quit hiding behind a collar and a cross. Hundreds, if not thousands! To me it seams like the hiding of this problem is going on right now. ( By the way, I forgive Hitler, as I know God has also.) As I have said, and perhaps your just trying to protect you personal interests, but many "people" involved in Christianity and organised religion seek power over the weak. Just like many cult leaders do. That's the truth Don. Some people even start their own faiths. Open there own Church's. Try to put the fear of God into the poor sheep that feel the need to follow blindly to the slaughter house. Or Bank perhaps.
You comments about "mindless hatred" may be better served as you gaze into the mirror. Tell us all what you see. Even Christianity was a New Age Religion only a few hundred years ago.
There has always been those who led and those who follow. Follow all you need to Don. Some will follow you. Do as what you believe is right. But don't be thinking that your truth is true to anyone more than to yourself.
I stand with God. I am not still searching for a truth that may never be found. I know the truth and the truth is with God. Not religions. Not fear of him. New Age truth, not Old World fear.
Perhaps I will see you at some point in F25 as I pass by you on my way home.
 

I read Howard Storm's book, and I believe he communicated with Jesus.

Regarding what Justin wrote, if we read a source that provides a very detailed and comprehensive description of the ego over and over again, we might end up creating a limiting belief system accordingly. Before we know it, we'll have a hard time thinking out of the box such a belief system creates.

The Jesus Howard Storm spoke to didn't provide him with a complex ego theory.

Sometimes people like to read complex ego theories because they believe that the more they do so and understand what they read, the better position they'll be in to deal with the ego.  To the extent the theory is true it might help, but we need to take care whether such an approach is more counter productive rather than productive.

If we experience fear because of a particular issue, perhaps it is better to deal with that particular issue, rather than concluding that when the fear of ending separation is dealt with, then only will other fears be taken care of.  I've found that the more you let go of limiting issues in a piecemeal fashion, the more you reconnect with your higher self, and the easier it becomes to do so more completely.  I can't say I'm completely there yet, thankfully I haven't taken an all or nothing approach. The quality of my life has definitely improved.

With regard to the death of the soul (the topic in question), I believe that the inner perception of life that we call the "I," can not die, as it is not a separate, perishable entity, but part of the universe itself.  

It may be that the "I" within us can, in some way be absorbed into God or reality and that the individual point of perception may cease to exist, if certain conditions are met.

That conjecture aside, several spiritual adventures I've read seem to document more of a soul-hibernation, where the person, while living,  was so convinced that there was nothing after death, that he/she entered a deep slumber upon dying which went along with his/her belief system.  These cases, we have referred to in discussions as soul statues; people who appear unmoving in the astral realms, who can only be roused with great effort.  Even in these statue-like states of hibernation, the inner light of life and perception exists.  

Will Matthew (myself) exist as an immortal being with my current ego attachments, hopes, dreams, fears, etc.? - Lord, I hope not!  I look forward to evolving, and shedding the trappings of fear and issues that earth life generates.  My own opinion is that physical immortality would be an awful fate, as one would be stuck on earth, unable to evolve, with all the hindrances of the physical world to our spiritual perceptions.  

M

Matthew:

Related to what you wrote, I once wrote about a retrievel experience I had. First I experienced the perspective of a lady who had a nihilistic viewpoint. Next, I saw her, and was stunned when I did so,  because she radiated a really dark feeling.  Her nihilistic viewpoint had caused her to be separated from the light, and her emptiness felt dark.  She had to go through that cleansing process I speak of before she could move on.

To me, to deny the gift of our soul is to deny the gift of life.

Why is it preferable for there to me only one extremely large being in the end, when there could be many beings?

My experiences have told me that it is possible for many souls to reach the point where they live life in a joyous and loving way.

If the goal is to puff out of existence, then why don't we just get it over with and find a reptilian who will not only eat our flesh, but also our aggregates? ;)

Matthew,

Christianity is based on the quest to produce a new kind of unconditionally loving human being.  The New Testament values Christian doctrines insofar as they serve as catalysts to produce such people.  Of course, many Christians fall short, but churches view themselves as welcoming spiritual hospitals who accept people just as they are and then try to facilitate spiritual growth.  So of course, one can view the lowest common denominator through a jaundiced eye.  

The Catholic church recognizes God's goal of producing unconditionally loving human beings, and so, teaches that many non-Christians fit the category of "anonymous Christians." THEY would include you and others like you in that category.  The early days of the Catholic teaching, "no salvation outside the Church," are long gone.  So we need to be very careful in the way we assign religious groups to specific religion-based hollow heavens.  Swedenborg's astral travels discover Catholic bishops in hells and Catholic peasants in the higher heavens.  In the afterlife, the quality of one's inner life and core desires will be a more important factor in one's "astral level" than the dry facts of one's belief system.  

I have beaten a Catholic university in a sex discrimination lawsuit and have deposited my winnings in a nice monthly fund to gives me financial security for the rest of my life. I have been exposed to the darker side of Catholicism more than most.  Yet in my new town, I am in awe of the moral quality and unselfish altruistic industry of local Catholics.  Because of their spiritual light, they are growing in leaps and bounds.  Prior to my arrival, they enticed several people away from local Protestant churches, including my own.  More power to them!  I have a wonderful working relationship with local Catholics in giving time, energy, and a lot of money weekly to meet the desperate needs of the local poor.  We must learn to take people one at a time.

The Jesus of Howard Storm's NDE is particularly intriguing because He does not fit modern stereotypes of Jesus; yet His teachings can be independently verified by analyzing the ancient neglected Jewish background that shapes them.  Then there are all the angelic apparitions that Storm experiences after his NDE that secure his miraculous recovery and, in one case, are witnsssed by an independent observer.  If I have time, I may start a thread on Storm's book in the near future.

Don

Matthew-

A well-known writer (GK Chesterton I think, not sure) said something to the effect that there is nothing more terrifying to him than to think that he might live forever.  In fact he said that those folks who desire eternal life do so out of highly self-centered motives.....they can't conceive of the earth continuing to turn without their existence somewhere.

Maybe God, in His infinite wisdom, knows that eternal life (at least in our ego-form) would be unbearable.  Out of mercy, He sees to it that we have our 1 go-round and then we either blink out or we are radically transformed.

I think Chesterton is on to something.  I imagine the great majority of people who continually obsess over the afterlife do so out of their own great fear that their unique and precious ego-centric existence might come to an end.

Maybe they should be careful about what they wish for.

R

There are a lot of well known writers who haven't had any spiritual experiences.  If they had, they wouldn't believe that is noble to want your existence to come to an end.

There is absolutely nothing wrong whatsover to want your existence to last for all of eternity. In fact, once you find out how absolutely wonderful and joyful existence can be, it would be absolutely insane to want your existence to come to an end. Actually, it would be impossible to want your existence to come to an end once you find out how wonderful and complete it can be.

What's next? It would be egotistical for God to want to exist for all of eternity?

The ability to think, learn, understand and comprehend, aren't the same thing as egotism.




Rog_B wrote on May 22^nd, 2009 at 4:31pm:

Matthew- A well-known writer (GK Chesterton I think, not sure) said something to the effect that there is nothing more terrifying to him than to think that he might live forever.  In fact he said that those folks who desire eternal life do so out of highly self-centered motives.....they can't conceive of the earth continuing to turn without their existence somewhere. Maybe God, in His infinite wisdom, knows that eternal life (at least in our ego-form) would be unbearable.  Out of mercy, He sees to it that we have our 1 go-round and then we either blink out or we are radically transformed. I think Chesterton is on to something.  I imagine the great majority of people who continually obsess over the afterlife do so out of their own great fear that their unique and precious ego-centric existence might come to an end. Maybe they should be careful about what they wish for. R

Albert-

I don't think I was clear.  I was speaking about the continuation of our own ego-centric personality with its own set of limitations, fears, hang-ups, etc etc.  What Matthew was speaking about in his post.

However, our continuation as our true larger Self, our soul and all that it encompasses, is a different story and one that I personally hope to be the case.

R

Roger:

I agree that self-centered existence isn't the way to go.  I don't get the impression that you see things precisely as Chesterton believes.  It is hard to say for certain since all I know about him is what you wrote.



Rog_B wrote on May 22^nd, 2009 at 5:23pm:

Albert- I don't think I was clear.  I was speaking about the continuation of our own ego-centric personality with its own set of limitations, fears, hang-ups, etc etc.  What Matthew was speaking about in his post. However, our continuation as our true larger Self, our soul and all that it encompasses, is a different story and one that I personally hope to be the case. R

I understand why one wouldn't want to live for all eternity. I wouldn't want to keep "learning" all the time. I would want to find happiness, which i think is different from person to person. If you found happiness, love, or whatever it is that you can't exist without then you would want to spend the eternity enjoying it.

Just my opinion  ;)

Sidey wrote on May 22^nd, 2009 at 7:56pm:

I understand why one wouldn't want to live for all eternity. I wouldn't want to keep "learning" all the time. I would want to find happiness, which i think is different from person to person. If you found happiness, love, or whatever it is that you can't exist without then you would want to spend the eternity enjoying it. Just my opinion  ;)

What is eternity?  Is it infinity?  I do not think so...
I don't look at living for a long time as work.
Life is meant to be enjoyed most of all.
Also we always need change and I am sure we have all changed a lot since our beginnings...

I believe it is HOW we live within ALL of our lives...3D or other wise is interesting and fun.
Sure there is some 'work' to it but, life would be boring if all we did was goof off all the time.
We need challenges and I believe that is what reincarnating is all about.
Challenge! That is where the 'learning' is at.  Not Drill & Kill type learning...
Experiences...now that is the fun kind of learning and living.
Call it 'On the Job Training....'  8-)

We live in a Free Will/ Freedom of Choice Existence.
We made the CHOICE to be in the here and now.
So we all must know something more then what we chose to forget while we are HERE...now...  ;)
(Especially NOW....in this time frame on Earth I believe we all made the choice to be here for something wonderful)

Then we we move on from this 3D life we then have the RUSH of meeting ALL of our families and friends once again...
We play, relax, share our lives with one another again...

THEN....After X amount of 'Time' which can be eons to what we call time on Earth...

Rinse and Repeat!  ;D

Some of us dwell that this is all as so much work or it is too painful and not worth it.
Or say, "I don't want to come back here again..."
Well, let's answer that after we are done here on this go around...We just might have a whole different perspective about it ALL.

Old Dood wrote on May 22^nd, 2009 at 8:55pm:

Sidey wrote on May 22nd, 2009 at 7:56pm: I understand why one wouldn't want to live for all eternity. I wouldn't want to keep "learning" all the time. I would want to find happiness, which i think is different from person to person. If you found happiness, love, or whatever it is that you can't exist without then you would want to spend the eternity enjoying it. Just my opinion  ;) What is eternity?  Is it infinity?  I do not think so... I don't look at living for a long time as work. Life is meant to be enjoyed most of all. Also we always need change and I am sure we have all changed a lot since our beginnings... I believe it is HOW we live within ALL of our lives...3D or other wise is interesting and fun. Sure there is some 'work' to it but, life would be boring if all we did was goof off all the time. We need challenges and I believe that is what reincarnating is all about. Challenge! That is where the 'learning' is at.  Not Drill & Kill type learning... Experiences...now that is the fun kind of learning and living. Call it 'On the Job Training....'  8-) We live in a Free Will/ Freedom of Choice Existence. We made the CHOICE to be in the here and now. So we all must know something more then what we chose to forget while we are HERE...now...  ;) (Especially NOW....in this time frame on Earth I believe we all made the choice to be here for something wonderful) Then we we move on from this 3D life we then have the RUSH of meeting ALL of our families and friends once again... We play, relax, share our lives with one another again... THEN....After X amount of 'Time' which can be eons to what we call time on Earth... Rinse and Repeat!  ;D Some of us dwell that this is all as so much work or it is too painful and not worth it. Or say, "I don't want to come back here again..." Well, let's answer that after we are done here on this go around...We just might have a whole different perspective about it ALL.

I'll probably laugh when i realize why i choose this life. Or on the other hand i could be like: "Oh, now it makes sense" but I will chuckle.  ;D

Here is Robert Bruce's answer to this question.


Quote:

Hi Robert, According to a channeled information I heard, the spirit/soul will exist eternally as long as it wants to exist. Would you believe it's true? Have you witnessed someone going into non-existence? This statement is both true and untrue. You, as a spirit, have a very narrow view of your true spiritual nature. Maybe 1% So, how can 1% decide the fate of the other 99% This is truth. Many may disagree, but this is as close as fact as you'll get to any kind of answer to this question. Robert.

Robert's response skirt's the question and the issue.  It also takes a point of view I detest, namely we, while incarnate are somehow less than our full selves and unable (or implied unworthy) to pursue our spiritual destiny. - "So, how can 1% decide the fate of the other 99%?"

Your question (whether he has witnessed souls going out of existence) remained unanswered.

I do agree that our consciousness has more direct ties to the collective unconconsious than we are aware of while incarnate.  At the same time, I know of many accounts from NDEs and astral communications which suggest that in the focus levels after death we aren't fundamentally different than we were while incarnate.  So, I very much doubt that our main mind/essence changes after death.  Rather, thought creates reality more easily in the realm of thought.  

In the end, we all have a kernel of unique perception that is a small part of God and a larger consciousness.  We know there are reports that the little individual perception (each of us) may go into a hibernation for indefinite periods of time - called by some on this board "soul statues."  Most reports indicated that these statues arise from belief systems where the person believes that death is nonexistence, or a permanent "rest."  Bruce Moen describes an encounter with a woman in this slumber in one of his travels.  this is not the same thing as ceasing to exist.

M

I totally understand and agree with Robert's answer.  He did not say that we are unable or unworthy of pursuing our spiritual destiny.  However, the fact of the matter is that our physically conscious minds are just a minute aspect of our larger consciousness.  I know this from experience.  I wouldn't say our mind/essence changes after death.. I would say that it is opened to its true, greater reality, without the limitations of the physical world in its way.  True, we carry with us our beliefs acquired from the physical life just lived, but as these shed, we begin to realize,understand,learn more and more about our true selves and our true spiritual nature.  I have read of NDEs where the person dies and immediately connects with the universal consciousness which we are a part of, and instantly remembers everything about their greater reality and higher self.  I would say that this answer really cannot be truly known until we experience the answer directly.  

I agree that Robert is correct. The problem that makes understanding this difficult is that we believe we are separate from our total being. We are not. We are and always have been our total being. The individual consciousness that we perceive as "me" is only a tiny little stream (1%) of what we are as a total being (the other 99%.) The whole purpose of "me" the 1% is to improve the quality of consciousness of the total self, to grow spiritually. That is our entire reason for existing, to evolve the consciousness of the whole soul being and thereby the entire (God) consciousness system. You could say the miniscule individualized unit of consciousness (me, the 1%) is a tool (worker bee) of the total being consciousness.

What we are evolving is the core essence of our being. The physical system evolves by doing. Consciousness evolves by intent. When our intent is motivated by love we improve the quality of the core being of the total self. When our intent is motivated by fear we cause harm to the core being of the total self.

If personality, Kathy is not useful to the positive, love based evolution of the Total Being... she could be deleted from the system though her intents would most likely remain a part of the database records. The fate of personality Kathy is in the hands of both her, the 1% together with the 99%. We are in this as the total being, not the individual 1%.

Now having said that, I should make it clear that we have lots and lots of "time" to evolve and grow our individual consciousness, improve our core essence, and as long as we are doing just that... growing spiritually, we are useful to the entire consciousness system and it is doubtful that Total Being would hit the delete button.

Kathy

Try to imagine not existing.  It is impossible.  The intuitional state of knowing and the strong connection with my higher self which are opened during projections into higher levels have given me the knowledge that I will never cease to exist and that I am infintely and eternally unconditionally loved.

In order for consciousness to evolve it must be free to explore all possibilities/potentialities to find the ones that are beneficial to the entire system. This includes the possibility of annihilation.

We are totally free to evolve or de-evolve to the fullest extent either way. This is seen in the evolution of any system. The systems that are not profitable do not survive. The evolution of consciousness is no different. Whatever is not beneficial to the positive evolution of the system can become history, so to speak.

K

Dude-

It's even more impossible to imagine a total state of Nothingness.  No planets, no universe, no Nothing.  Can't do it.

Kathy-

I admit I like your post but I have a question.....where did all of that information come from?  Is it based on things you've read over the years? Direct information, such as personal revelations?  Or is it mostly your own reasoning, maybe an amalgamation of various sources?

Just wondering. Whenever someone posts something as if were a settled fact, it prompts me ask this question.

R

Hi Roger,

I guess you could say what I post comes from all sources, but I speak from my own lifelong experience and understanding.

For example we all learned about evolution in high school science class (all aspects of science were my favorite subject in school and since then) so we know how all types of systems evolve. I and others have talked about intention for years and that is how consciousness evolves. In ELS consciousness, we evolve in valuable ways by overcoming and releasing fear. By doing so we cannot help but grow/evolve spiritually because that is how God consciousness has evolved and we are an inseparable, but limited stream of the One.

I've had many spiritual experiences/encounters, including several I've mentioned here over the years, that have shown me without a doubt our core essence is what we are and that there is no absolute separation of me from my total being. I have also been deeply connected to my core/total self for most of my life. Following my deepest longing to grow spiritually, to love deeply has enabled greater understanding from a place deep within me.

Having grown up as a Christian I must say Don's posts for the most part stand as verification of both my experience as well as my understanding. Yet I can understand the perspective of other groups as well. Searching for truth with discernment fleshes out absolute truth. Don's good at that as I'm sure you know.

There's a difference in awareness certainly because the ELS consciousness is purposely limited. I think the reason why physical realities exist is because they evolved out of consciousness in ways that make them useful to the evolution of the entire consciousness system. If they were not useful, they would die out/disappear from existence just as any other system would.

Many physicists discuss this, but the one that puts it all together in the most accurate way I've seen is Tom Campbell, whom I've mentioned a couple of times previously.

Kathy

Hi Kathy-

Don and I both found some profound truths in Lighted Passage.  An old book written in the 1940s by a minister, certainly not new age by any means but yet he clearly describes retrievals that he had performed for soldiers killed during WWII.  Thing is, book wasn't about retrievals at all, that came at the end almost as an afterthought.  Which for me just increased its credibility.

What I got out of it is that yes, we do survive death and that yes, we are far more than what we think.  As to more specific details, he didn't say, mainly because the source of his information-his deceased daughter-wasn't able to put into words the nature of her true Being.  

However, it seemed that at least one of her missions was to help deceased spirits find their way to the light and she clearly said that living humans were important helpers in that effort.

I'm far more concerned about whether I'll be able to best live the life I have rather than speculating as to what comes after.  I really think that's essentially a pointless exercise and ultimately a distraction from what's important in life.

I think the Golden Rule pretty much sums up all we need to know and do while physically alive.  

Saying that is easy, living up to it is damn tough.  PUL is great until someone cuts us off in traffic and then it becomes highly abstract.

R  

Hi again Roger,

Yes, I have been reading Don't thread. Hopefully he will have time to continue. Lighted Passage is one book I would like to read. Unfortunately it isn't available at any of our libraries. Too bad it's out of print.


Quote:

I'm far more concerned about whether I'll be able to best live the life I have rather than speculating as to what comes after.  I really think that's essentially a pointless exercise and ultimately a distraction from what's important in life. I think the Golden Rule pretty much sums up all we need to know and do while physically alive.

I couldn't agree with you more. Life is about living, loving and maturing the quality of our inner core being. We don't need to be perfect especially in traffic.  :D 
We just need to continually meet life with good intent... love, compassion and humility.

K

Hi Kathy-

I sent you a pm.

R