Hi You either make your own hell or some other species of the human race makes it for you,this is hell where we are now living in this crap world of people where some pretend to be nice and some are nice and some are not nice,and that is the truth and nothing but the truth so help us all God.

Everyone of us has a dark side ,only there are those who will not let that darkside come through because they would rather love but there are those who do and spoil it for others on this planet.

I admit you can try and make the world a better place but my priest is right ,you cant try and say to God that you are so so good and forget about your darkside as Jesus died for you and all of us should be true to ourselves.

Even though we dont realise it we are none of us completely true to ourselves because we cant face the fact that deep down inside us there is a darkside  and God knows that.

My priest asked me if i had ever felt like i wanted to hurt someone back for hurting me and i said i had had thoughts like that sometimes but i wouldnt do as its against my nature to do it ,so my priest said none of us should try to paint a pretty picture of ourselves in front of God,because the good and bad makes us human.

Love and God bless   love juditha

The way the world is now turning out Juditha I have to agree with you. This world should be a Joyous experience but instead Mankind has made it in to a Living Hell. You Can't pick a Newspaper up without reading about People being killed, mugged or being Stolen of all their worldly Goods. Young Children/Babies being Brutally murdered, tortured, Battered to death even from their so called Parents.

The poor People in Africa starve every day, surely that MUST be Hell for them.
I would never ever want to come back to the Earth Plane , Once has been enough for me!

Hi Juditha,
your post seems to have (to me) rather negative undertones.
If you concentrate on the negative (hell) you'll attract it to you. If you're always looking for the worst, you may miss out on the good and the loving.
Why should you ignore the smiles of a thousand if you're concentrating on the scowls of one?
Mankind has only made things as they are because we have free will -and that's a biggie to a lot of people who don't want the responsibility. They'd rather let some fundamentalist tell them how to live and what to think than work it out for themselves. Anytime you hear someone saying 'I don't know what to think' maybe the answer should be 'well, make your mind up and start thinking now -you've only yourself to be responsible for as you're creating your reality.
Yes, everyone has a dark side -it goes with the ELS. We have choices and we learn from our mistakes (and boy have I made a lot of them!) but if God is really the supreme being and at the centre of everything, he/she will understand. Me, I'll look God in the metaphorical face and say 'Yes, good and bad, I did it all -no excuses or rationalisations'. God knows all about us, as do our total selves and guardian angels. We're here in this school of life to undergo experiences, whether good or bad, and none of us know until we get across to the other side and see the whole picture what its all about and what its all for (unless you get to Focus 27 and meet the gang who are there for you and help you move on.
As for those who go through living hells, I can't comment on what they may have agreed to experience before they came into this life. We all supposedly plan our lives and what we're going to deal with. One life may be of riches, comforts and softness, another life may be as a political prisoner or living through a holocaust or genocide. Over the other side, it will all be like a dream and only then will we be able to see it all in perspective and context of all our past future and parallel lives.
And no, I don't know why I've had to experience some of the stuff I have, but I suppose it all goes to making me who I am in this life and will continue in future lives.
Its' not just the good and bad that makes us human; its all our experiences, hopes and dreams, aspirations, regrets and remorses. We're here to experience, grow and try to become much more than what we originally were. Or, to paraphrase Star Trek: the Motion Picture -learn all that is learnable, and report back to our creator.

Best wishes

David.

Who is your priest to tell you what kind of picture to paint?

Let your priest paint his/her own picture.


wrote on Apr 3^rd, 2009 at 1:21pm:

Hi My priest asked me if i had ever felt like i wanted to hurt someone back for hurting me and i said i had had thoughts like that sometimes but i wouldnt do as its against my nature to do it ,so my priest said none of us should try to paint a pretty picture of ourselves in front of God,because the good and bad makes us human. Love and God bless   love juditha

Yes, I totally aggree you make your own Hell, but, Juditha, you can also make your own Heaven. Jesus said that Heaven is Here, Now. If you think that this is a world of Hell and condemnation, THINK AGAIN!

Choose differently. Let me suggest you might consider A Course in Miracles, which is the inspiration for this post.

If you think about Hell all the time, what else could show up? What you think on manifests. Jesus said that, too ("As ye think, so shall ye be!")

So, dear friend, think about Heaven. You deserve nothing less, and nothing less is yours. Now.

Thomas

Juditha:

I suggest you consider what I wrote about ACIM on Don's (Berserk) Chanelling agendas thread. On two occasions I received messages that the course came from an unfriendly misleading being that doesn't have a human origin.  Helen Schuchman, the lady who received the words, didn't take the time to thoroughly discern where the words came from.  She found it troubling to receive the words and wanted to stop doing so, but her cohert, William Thetford, a CIA mind control specialist, would talk her into doing so whenever she considered not doing so.  The voice she heard would force itself upon her. When she wouldn't take notes, she wasn't able to get any sleep.

Regarding the course's claim that the course comes from Christ, consider what Helen Schuchman told William Thetford when he asked her where the words came from. The voice that spoke to her said:

"The name of Jesus Christ is just a symbol. But it stands for love that is not of this World.  It is a symbol that is safely used as a replacement for the many names of all gods to which you pray...This course has come from him because his words have reached you in a language you can love and understand."

I've had experiences with Christ where he wasn't just a symbol. Many people have had near death experiences and other experiences with Christ where he wasn't just a symbol.  Yet, this is what the course tries to establish. The course is like a wolf in sheep's clothing. It tries to present itself as one thing, when it is something else. People won't question it in a serious manner, because they allow themselves to get fooled by its underhanded attempt to deceive.

Consider what it has to say about the suffering in the World:

"With eyes closed, think of the horrors in the world that cross your mind. Name each one as it occurs to you, and then deny its reality. God did not create it, and so it is not real. Say for example:

God did not create that war, and so it is not real.
God did not create that airplane crash, and so it is not real.
God did not create that disaster [specify], and so it is not real. (Lesson 14, pg. 23)"

Consider the suffering that many people including yourself have gone through. A lot of people have read the course for a number of years. Has the suffering people experience in this World puffed out of existence because people made the above assertions? Of course not. The suffering that takes place in this World isn't going to go away by brainwashing ourselves into believing that it doesn't exist. Suffering will go away only after people acknowledge that it does in fact exist and take steps to change things for the better rather than engage themselves in a game of denial.

Non-dual Advaita Vedanta gurus have played the denial game for years. If a person asked such a guru about the suffering in this World, he would reply it's just an illusion so it doesn't matter. "Yet," many people do suffer and will continue to do so for generations, until people stop counting their chickens before they hatch by making meaningless assertions.

It is interesting to note that William Thetford stated that ACIM is like non-dual teachings such as Advaita Vedanta, only it uses Christian terminology and incorporates modern psychology.  Jesus was not a teacher of Vedanta. I believe that Jesus cared dearly for the World while he was here as a person, and continues to do so as a spirit. He wasn't into counting his chickens before they hatched, nor is he inclined to get people to do so, as ACIM does, when it tries to get people to believe that their isn't a World they need to be concerned about.

In this world it is easy to forget who you are. Everyone is so willing to tell you who you are, have you noticed, Juditha? I speak of you because it is easier than speaking of myself.

Many times I have been accused of being a liar before I even understood my own truth. It only confused me to listen to them.

So, what I hear is your priest denying your own good thoughts and good wishes toward yourself. Your own idealism was held up, the very thought that you might act on your beliefs, that you might think of harming another but you would resist doing it....

Is it so wrong to believe in yourself? To believe yourself capable of something great, something noble?

Is it so wrong to think that God might see you this way? That God can see your struggles and might even praise you for them? Only a worthless God would have so little understanding as to blame you for some kind of false pride.

But, that's just my opinion. It's more to do with me than you, really. It's just the way I see it.


wrote on Apr 5^th, 2009 at 2:42pm:

Who is your priest to tell you what kind of picture to paint? Let your priest paint his/her own picture. wrote on Apr 3rd, 2009 at 1:21pm: Hi My priest asked me if i had ever felt like i wanted to hurt someone back for hurting me and i said i had had thoughts like that sometimes but i wouldnt do as its against my nature to do it ,so my priest said none of us should try to paint a pretty picture of ourselves in front of God,because the good and bad makes us human. Love and God bless   love juditha

Greetings.

I would like to offer my thoughts.

  This world was created by God to be a beautiful place for all beings to live upon. It was never intended to be the hellish world that exists for many of us who are suffering so much. Actually the origin of the word hell just means a hole in the ground.

  When humans wanted the knowledge of good and evil, God refused. Whether or not we were tempted to do so is another issue. Anyway you look at it, we have the knowledge now and it has led to this state of affairs that we find humans existing in. Over the years, those humans who have given into the 5 passions of lust, anger, greed, attachment, and vanity have taken control over the lives of good people who just want to live in peace and harmony with each other. They created their own gods to explain why the people were suffering and in the meantime were scamming them.

  I think that the mission Jesus came for was to teach the humans on this planet who worshipped many gods that their is only one God. I feel that he also wanted to get across the message of God existing within each of us as well as outside of us; that we are more than our physical bodies and will live forever if we just accept God's love.

Sincerely,
Ralph

A little more about ACIM.  Is it possible that when a person reads a book, he or she might get connected to the energetic level this book is connected to?

The first time I opened the book while in a book store, the energy in my lower body area became really active. This has never happened before. Intially when I tried to read the course, I would see little demonic images mixed in with the words. For anybody who would suggest my mind was the cause, I had good intentions when I tried to read the course, and I haven't seen demonic images mixed in with the words of other books.

Reading the book would cause me to click out in an unpleasant way. This doesn't happen with other books. Justin found the same. I once provided a link where people from another forum also found the same.

Helen Schuchman had similar experiences.  From Robert Skutch's book "Journey Without Distance - The story behind A Course in Miracles." (pg. 58):

"When Bill asked Helen that morning to read aloud what she had written so he could type it up, she could barely get the words out. Before she was halfway through the first sentence she began a coughing fit that lasted over five minutes. Then she had to keep clearing her throat as it seemed to be contnually filling wiht phlegm. After more than an hour, she had been able to dictate only the first eighteen principles, and Bill had to leave to keep an appointment...Bill was finally able to receive the fifty principles from Helen late that afternoon, after much stuttering, stammering, yawning and coughing on her part....The following morning was a repetition of the previous one. However, through the coughing, the sighing and the "inability to see my notes, Helen did manage to dictate..."

I'm not 100% certain about this, but I believe that I clicked out as I did plus experienced other effects, because my higher self/spirit guidance wanted to prevent me from getting brainwashed by the course. Nevertheless, I was stubborn about it, allowed myself to get brainwashed by it for a while, and through a dream my guidance agreed that I had become brainwashed for a while.

Perhaps it is worthwhile to note that Helen's governess (a Catholic) told her that favors could be obtained from God. Helen had never heard of this, and partly because she viewed God as a big Santa Claus in the sky, she became a Catholic for a while. When she didn't get what she wanted, she became disillusioned, and eventually reached the point where she believed that science had all the answers. She became very anti-religion, and became quite angry when spiritual beliefs came up.

It is hard to believe that Christ would choose a person with this way of being, as a person to dictate a long course that comes from him.  It is possible to see, why such a person might attract the interest of an unfriendly being.  The same is true with William Thetford, if he was in fact employed by the CIA as a mind control expert.

P.S. Juditha, sorry for doing this to your thread, but I believe that the last thing you need is to get involved with ACIM. If you ever consider doing so, I suggest that you pray to God and Christ first, and ask them if the course comes from Christ. If you receive the same answer I received a number of times, you'll be told that it doesn't.  Shall we be humble enough to ask?

Recoverer


Quote:

The name of Jesus Christ is just a symbol. But it stands for love that is not of this World I've had experiences with Christ where he wasn't just a symbol. Many people have had near death experiences and other experiences with Christ where he wasn't just a symbol.  Yet, this is what the course tries to establish.

The being Jesus Christ is more than a symbol, this is true.  However, his name is a symbol, as are all names.  And this is exactly what is said.  You seem to have misinterpreted/misunderstood this.  I bring this up because I have noticed that you seem to do this a lot with sources which you do not like.  They say something, and you attempt to skew their message to suit your beliefs.  I am not judging you, just bringing to your attention this tendency of yours which I have noticed.  

I also disagree with you for turning the post in this direction again.  Tgecks made a beautiful, truthful, inspiring reply to juditha, and you turn it into something negative.  

Dude:

I understand that the quote I provided can be interpreted in different ways. What about the rest of what I wrote? And regarding Jane Roberts Seth lie about Jesus just making a joke when he said to love your neighbor as yourself, perhaps you should reconsider. The fact that you excused that quote shows how quick you are to be apologetic.

I feel okay about posting as I did, because Thomas suggested to Juditha that she reads ACIM.

What if the spirit messages I received are true? What if Helen Schuchman did in fact receive the information she received from a malevolent being?  Would it do Juditha any good to get involved with such tripe?

I have come to the point where I know that I can trust the spirit beings I communicate with. Should I doubt them when it comes to what they said about ACIM?  

Even without the spirit messages I've received about ACIM, I can see how misleading it is.

What if you knew about a source that was misleading and somebody recommended it to another person? Would you just sit by and do nothing?

Sure it might seem somewhat rude for me to post as I did. But what's worse, for a misleading source to have complete freedom to do what it strives to do, or for somebody to do as I do? Sometimes its's important to know how to prioritize.

Here's the quote again. My comments are provided in brackets:

"The name of Jesus Christ is just a symbol [Just a symbol?]. But it ["It?" another negation of the reality of Christ]  stands for love that is not of this World.  It is a symbol [another negation of the reality of Christ] that is safely used as a replacement for the many names of all gods [a multiplicity of Gods rather than the one God Jesus spoke about in the gospels] to which you pray...This course has come from him because his words have reached you in a language you can love and understand [It isn't until the source tries to claim that it comes from Christ that it refers to Christ as "him" rather than symbol. Also, certainly there is more of a reason as to why divine instruction would come from Christ. Also, I don't believe that the language matches the language that Christ would use. Also, if the course comes from Christ, why does the source speak of Christ as if he is something separate from that which is speaking? The course does this often.]."




If we want to see through a misleading source's ways, we have to be willing to read between the lines.

If you wanna be technical, grammatically speaking, the use of it in that paragraph describes the topic of the first sentence, which is "The name."  Why you believe "jesus' name is a symbol" negates his existence is beyond me.  His name is a symbol.  That is what a name is.  And does Jesus' name, and being, not symbolize PUL that is so incredible that it is beyond this world?  But anyway, my point is that Tgecks was trying to convey an important and truthful message to Juditha, and recommending that she investigates the source of the message, for she obviously is lacking the truthful and helpful insight that this source provides, and this source will obviously be of assistance to her, and then you come along and try to refute the source.  It seems a little egocentric and selfish if you ask me.  You have already expressed your opinions of ACIM many times.  I think it would be best to express your opinion once if you think it will be helpful and the let people discern things for themselves.  Not everyone believes what you believe, and not everyone interprets things the way you do.  I'm sorry, but it just seems wrong to me.

Judithia is not being negative as many of you suppose, she is just being realistic and facing the reality of life and thinking about the less fortunate.

Less fortunate because we turn our eyes away from their suffering and hope they will go away

So many experiences to choose from, yet conformity is the pinnacle of life on Earth?

Immortal spirit A chooses for one of the incarnations to have experiences that includes suffering.  Incarnation B says sub-A can't do that. Incarnation C says everyone not "helping" (denying the experience) are cold hearted, by telling them they are leaving sub-A behind, because sub-C wants everybody to do what he/she thinks is right, and guilt is the weapon of choice to perform crowd control. Maybe A wants sub-A to learn how not to be a victim. Perhaps sub-A learns that bringing children into the world when not being able to provide for them makes for a hard path, even though welfare programs are in place to reward people for behaving as easter bunnies. Sub-A at least had the funds to get condoms, but refused to take responsibility. Guesswork. Who's to really know what spirit A wants out of the experiences, except for that spirit?

The dark/darkside has as obvious trait: the lust for control over others, no matter what the cost - serve me, nevermind you. Can be found in GOVERNment, religion, friendships, families and so on. Another use for the dark: the power to defend yourself if somebody seeks to control you. Then you're not a victim anymore, a mere energy source, and any residual stuff are then your issues, and not baggage you refuse to return to sender.

If you stand up for your self though, you lose one experience; you don't get to fill your black hole with sympatethic energy from naive incarnations by whining how terrible things are anymore. Maybe generating their own energy isn't worth it for some, but then again, that's their choices and experiences.

Albert-

I am not a biblical scholar by any means, but there's no way the Jesus of the Bible is the same individual who dictated ACIM.

The biblical Jesus made it clear that sin is not a good thing.  I believe He said the wages of sin are death...or something to that effect.  And his warning about what will happen to anyone who causes a child to sin is clear enough: that person will be held accountable in an unmistakable way.

However, the Jesus of ACIM says that sin is not real.  It's just an illusion.  He also says there's no need to feel guilty about committing sinful acts because.....guess what?....those acts never took place.  We just "think" they did.  Accountability??  What's that?  We can't be accountable for even the most heinous acts because they were just illusions.  Tell that to the family of a murder victim.

Now please someone tell me how these two teachings can possibly come from the same teacher??

It's just that simple.  Either Jesus did a complete 180 in the past 2000 years, or the Jesus of ACIM is an imposter.

To me the answer is obvious.

Volu

Quote:

Immortal spirit A chooses for one of the incarnations to have experiences that includes suffering.  Incarnation B says sub-A can't do that. Incarnation C says everyone not "helping" (denying the experience) are cold hearted, by telling them they are leaving sub-A behind, because sub-C wants everybody to do what he/she thinks is right, and guilt is the weapon of choice to perform crowd control. Maybe A wants sub-A to learn how not to be a victim. Perhaps sub-A learns that bringing children into the world when not being able to provide for them makes for a hard path, even though welfare programs are in place to reward people for behaving as easter bunnies. Sub-A at least had the funds to get condoms, but refused to take responsibility. Guesswork. Who's to really know what spirit A wants out of the experiences, except for that spiri

So according to this logic the immortal soul of Hitler looked down on the earth and said, you know what I will incarnate and become the worst mass murderer that planet has ever seen

And god stood back and said OK Oh man Oh man My head hurts

Alan

ACIM states that Jesus was Misunderstood 2000 years ago... well, I'm not a follower of it, but I don't find that hard to believe. Neither ACIM or The Bible is without flaw in my opinion. I have yet to read anything that has exclusivity on how one should lead their lives to promote spiritual advancement...except the golden rule. Including the Golden Rule in a spiritual work does not give that whole work credence. It's an interesting thread just like the last twenty times this argument has come up.

Hi Rondele


Quote:

However, the Jesus of ACIM says that sin is not real.  It's just an illusion.  He also says there's no need to feel guilty about committing sinful acts because.....guess what?....those acts never took place.  We just "think" they did.  Accountability??  What's that?  We can't be accountable for even the most heinous acts because they were just illusions.  Tell that to the family of a murder victim.

I agree absolutely with Rondeles sensible comments

The Jesus of ACIM is not the real Jesus , but a "challeled demon of deception".

Once one believes sin, another words for depravity is not real, then lets us eat drink do what we like to who we like when we like, we cant really hurt anyone, it is just an illusion and will soon go away

Go and tell holocaust victims that sin is an illusion, wake up and smell the coffee folks depravity is as real as the steal weapons it uses , to murder, rape, pillage, destroy, corrupt

People who think that sin is an illusion are in for a rude awaking a huge shock when they die and see in the life review every despicable act they have ever done played off for them, And the life review does not just end with their fowl acts, they have to stand there in shame and see and feel all the pain, sorow, loss, fear, terror that they have caused all the way down the huge web of their accountability

Can Hitler just say to God sorry god, let me go back and try again?



Alan

It's fascinating that the same people who dismiss the Bible will read ACIM and other channeled material and swallow it hook, line and sinker.

I remember one poster who said Jesus isn't relevant any more because he lived 2000 years ago and the world has changed drastically since then.  And after all, channeled stuff is SO new agey and cool......

The message of ACIM is seductive.  Everyone is without sin!  How neat is that?  Reminds me of other stuff that is going on in our culture these days.  Such as, every kid makes the honor roll. There are no "wrong" answers any more in some schools.  No one gets an F, etc etc.

Don't you guys get the bottom line of all this stuff?  Leveling of the playing field, whether it's about sin or about life in general.

The message of ACIM resonates these days simply because it's right in line with the direction society is going in almost every other aspect of life.

R

Both Helen Schucman and William Thetford acknowledged that the course uses Shakespeare like prose. I don't understand why the spirit of Jesus would speak in such a way.

Let's see:

-Helen became a Catholic for a while because she figured God would be like Santa Claus.

-She found out that he wasn't, and became disillusioned.

-She decided that science has the answers, and developed a strong hate for spirituality.

-Yet, Christ supposedly chose her to speak for him.

-She was very unwillinging to do so, yet she did so, because the spirit she received words from forced itself upon her, and because William Thetford talked her into continuing to do so. Even if Christ would choose to channel a very lengthy, repetitive and affirmation oriented course, one would think that Christ would choose a much more willing subject.

-Her life ended with her being in a rageful depressive state where she used coarse language and referred to the course as that G-- dam course.

Yeah, it all adds up to actual divine inspiration. Not!

You know what it comes down to? People just don't want to believe that unfriendly influences have gotten to the new age super market. Outwardly they'll say that unfriendly influences exist, but on the inside they're afraid to truly admit it. Instead, they come up with apologetics for sources that aren't worth defending.

When I was shown an image of the being that is responsible for the words, I was shown it in two different ways. One morning it was shown as unfriendly looking alien. The next moring it was shown as a red colored rageful demonic looking being.  I'm not one hundred percent certain, but it is possible that it was shown in two different ways, because it doesn't have a look that includes biology based morphology. If I was shown an image of what it really looks like, I probably would not had understood what I was shown. Therefore, instead, I was shown two differing images with the hope that I would conclude that each image was representitive but not how the being actually looks. I received a confirmation that what I just wrote is accurate while I was writing it. I also received imagery, when I received images of the being, that the course leads people away from what Christ taught/teaches. In the past, I had a dream that made the same point.

A misleading influence isn't going to tell people to go out and do things such as rape and murder people, because most people won't listen to such words. Instead it will find a way to mislead people without their knowing that they are being mislead. Consider Scientology. People who are into Scientology will swear by Scientology, but does Scientology represent the truth?

In his book Ultimate Journey Robert Monroe wrote that he was told that there are unfriendly influences, they aren't smarter than us, but they have a lot of experience, and can mislead us. Perhaps such influences have learned what does and doesn't work, when it comes to misleading people.


Alan McDougall wrote on Apr 7^th, 2009 at 11:28am:

Hi Rondele Quote: However, the Jesus of ACIM says that sin is not real.  It's just an illusion.  He also says there's no need to feel guilty about committing sinful acts because.....guess what?....those acts never took place.  We just "think" they did.  Accountability??  What's that?  We can't be accountable for even the most heinous acts because they were just illusions.  Tell that to the family of a murder victim. I agree absolutely with Rondeles sensible comments The Jesus of ACIM is not the real Jesus , but a "challeled demon of deception". Once one believes sin, another words for depravity is not real, then lets us eat drink do what we like to who we like when we like, we cant really hurt anyone, it is just an illusion and will soon go away Go and tell holocaust victims that sin is an illusion, wake up and smell the coffee folks depravity is as real as the steal weapons it uses , to murder, rape, pillage, destroy, corrupt People who think that sin is an illusion are in for a rude awaking a huge shock when they die and see in the life review every despicable act they have ever done played off for them, And the life review does not just end with their fowl acts, they have to stand there in shame and see and feel all the pain, sorow, loss, fear, terror that they have caused all the way down the huge web of their accountability Can Hitler just say to God sorry god, let me go back and try again? Alan

<<You know what it comes down to? People just don't want to believe that unfriendly influences have gotten to the new age super market. Outwardly they'll say that unfriendly influences exist, but on the inside they're afraid to truly admit it. Instead, they come up with apologetics for sources that aren't worth defending.>>

Albert- yes, that's true but the real question we need to ask is what is ACIM's real agenda?  

If I really accepted the crux of ACIM, I would toss the whole concept of accountability for my actions right out the window.  I would figure that anything I did, or intend to do, is merely illusionary and therefore of no consequence.  And if anyone had a problem with me or my actions, it's their problem not mine.  They just need to realize that what they see and hear and feel is an illusion and not real.

And thinking it through to its logical conclusion, the biblical injunctions against sin and wrongdoing can be ignored and also tossed out the window.  Jesus really didn't know what He was talking about.

The whole thrust of ACIM is to undermine Jesus and His teachings.  In fact, in one of the lessons in the back of the book, the entity that is passing himself off as Jesus makes a mistake and refers to Jesus in the third person!  Something he would never do if in fact he was Jesus.  He would have said "me" or "I".  

A little slip of the forked tongue.

Alan McDougall wrote on Apr 7^th, 2009 at 11:28am:

Once one believes sin, another words for depravity is not real, then lets us eat drink do what we like to who we like when we like, we cant really hurt anyone, it is just an illusion and will soon go away

Not necessarily. It still comes back to the basic question of freewill. If you choose to embrace depravity you have to accept all that that means karmically and in your life review at the end. Sin is an unfortunate term with all sorts of implications of guilt, unworthiness and   being damned before you start. Some churches concept that we are all born as sinners is responsible for a lot of damage in the human psyche. What you resist persists and eventually it will break out and bite you in the ass.
In a sense you can do just what you like, as long as you accept the fact that there's a price to be paid, and you're inner moral sense (soul connection?) will try and warn you of it. Maybe modern life is so occupied with trivia and M band noise that it's difficult to hear it. And saying that its all an illusion is often times a form of denial for many. Supposedly the ELS IS an illusion, but we're stuck in it until we cross over at the end.


Quote:

Go and tell holocaust victims that sin is an illusion, wake up and smell the coffee folks depravity is as real as the steal weapons it uses , to murder, rape, pillage, destroy, corrupt People who think that sin is an illusion are in for a rude awaking a huge shock when they die and see in the life review every despicable act they have ever done played off for them, And the life review does not just end with their foul acts, they have to stand there in shame and see and feel all the pain, sorrow, loss, fear, terror that they have caused all the way down the huge web of their accountability

Yes, and then they have to do a past life review with their guides and accept that they will have to go through an equivalent experience to balance things up? See Michael Newton's books on this and it will give you more information. Shame is not the right word. Regret, remorse and acceptance of responsibility may be better in this case.


Quote:

Can Hitler just say to God sorry god, let me go back and try again?

Quite possibly. We don't know what Hitler (or Stalin or Pol Pot or George Bush or (insert personal demon here)'s life plans are/were and where and when and how they deviated from that, why they did and what they are intending to do about it in future lives.

Best wishes,

David.

Rondelle:

Regarding the agenda, I've written about this before in a more extensive way, but I'll summarize:

-To create a block between people and what Christ would truly reveal.

-To get people to assert what is supposedly true through a bunch of affirmations, rather than actually finding out what is true. True knowledge doesn't come to be by making a bunch of affirmations.

-To get people to become indifferent to the suffering in this World, by getting them to believe that it is nothing but an illusion.

-To get people to spend a lot of time reading words that basically say the same thing over and over again, and to spend a lot of time making affirmations, rather than taking the time to look at themselves and find what limiting thought patterns need to be taken care of. The course doesn't address how to deal with specific issues. Instead, it says that the only issue that matters is that the so called separation be brought to and end.

-To get them to believe in an ego like entity so profusely, that they end up creating such an entity within themselves.

-To make it seem as if God has nothing to do with this World by claiming that he didn't create it, and everything we experience is nothing but a meaningless illusion. My feeling is that anytime we share love with another person, while in this World, God's love and therefore reality, is abundant.

-By making it seem as if spiritual growth is an all or nothing matter. Either you're attoned, or your not.

-By not addressing issues that need to be addressed.

-By entrapping people who could've made a difference in this World within a limiting belief system that due to its assertive nature seems to be positive, but in fact curtails a person's growth.  It is hard to see how a false approach to spiritual growth is limiting you, when you are entrapped within it.

Consider what the course says about the 365 days of affirmation lessons it provides:

"Remember only this: you need not believe the ideas, you need not accept them, and you need not even welcome them.  Some of them you may actively resist.  None of this will matter, or decrease their efficacy. But do not allow yourself to make exceptions in applying the ideas the workbook contains, and whatever your reactions to the ideas may be, use them. Nothing more than that is required."

It seems to me that if something doesn't sound right, we should be free to not engage in it. Yet, the course doesn't want to provide us with that freedom. It pretends that it does by stating that you don't have to believe the lessons as you read them, but then it takes away your freedom by stating that you have to do the lessons.  Sounds like doubletalk to me.  The course also says, "This is a course in miracles. It is a required course.  Only the time you take it is voluntary."

I agree with you Rondelle in that if Christ spoke, he'd be more forthright about it. The quote I provided also sounds like a bunch of doubletalk.





rondele wrote on Apr 7^th, 2009 at 1:16pm:

<<You know what it comes down to? People just don't want to believe that unfriendly influences have gotten to the new age super market. Outwardly they'll say that unfriendly influences exist, but on the inside they're afraid to truly admit it. Instead, they come up with apologetics for sources that aren't worth defending.>> Albert- yes, that's true but the real question we need to ask is what is ACIM's real agenda?   If I really accepted the crux of ACIM, I would toss the whole concept of accountability for my actions right out the window.  I would figure that anything I did, or intend to do, is merely illusionary and therefore of no consequence.  And if anyone had a problem with me or my actions, it's their problem not mine.  They just need to realize that what they see and hear and feel is an illusion and not real. And thinking it through to its logical conclusion, the biblical injunctions against sin and wrongdoing can be ignored and also tossed out the window.  Jesus really didn't know what He was talking about. The whole thrust of ACIM is to undermine Jesus and His teachings.  In fact, in one of the lessons in the back of the book, the entity that is passing himself off as Jesus makes a mistake and refers to Jesus in the third person!  Something he would never do if in fact he was Jesus.  He would have said "me" or "I".   A little slip of the forked tongue.

Detheridge:

I deleted a post I wrote to you because I thought of something better to say. Remorse, guilt, regret, shame, such words have a lot in common.

Alan:

I agree with you. I believe that the premise that people take on really difficult incarnations because their souls need to learn lessons, is taken to an excessive extreme.

For example, I figure that a lot of children are forced into prostitution not because their souls need such lessons, but because unethical people will take advantage of such children.

Some people like to believe that the changes are going to happen in 2012 and everything is going to change for the better. If as ACIM contends the suffering we see in this World isn't real because this World isn't real, or if as some sources contend souls take on difficult incarnations because these are the lessons their souls need, then why in tarnation do the changes need to occur? It seems to me that some contradictory thinking is in play. A person needs to be willing to question what he or she reads, in order to see why such discrepencies exit. It is hard to be willing to question, if a person believes it is unhip and unloving to do so.

People are hungry for knowledge. Because of this, there are occasions where they get overly excited about what they read, and aren't wiling to question what they read. To get them to question what they read, can be like trying to take a toy away from a child. Certainly some of the sources that seek to mislead, know about this factor.  Perhaps it is best to have a little knowledge that is based upon truth, rather than a lot of knowledge, if you can all it that, that is based upon false principles.



Alan McDougall wrote on Apr 7^th, 2009 at 10:58am:

Volu Quote: Immortal spirit A chooses for one of the incarnations to have experiences that includes suffering.  Incarnation B says sub-A can't do that. Incarnation C says everyone not "helping" (denying the experience) are cold hearted, by telling them they are leaving sub-A behind, because sub-C wants everybody to do what he/she thinks is right, and guilt is the weapon of choice to perform crowd control. Maybe A wants sub-A to learn how not to be a victim. Perhaps sub-A learns that bringing children into the world when not being able to provide for them makes for a hard path, even though welfare programs are in place to reward people for behaving as easter bunnies. Sub-A at least had the funds to get condoms, but refused to take responsibility. Guesswork. Who's to really know what spirit A wants out of the experiences, except for that spiri So according to this logic the immortal soul of Hitler looked down on the earth and said, you know what I will incarnate and become the worst mass murderer that planet has ever seen And god stood back and said OK Oh man Oh man My head hurts Alan

Alan,
"So according to this logic the immortal soul of Hitler looked down on the earth and said, you know what I will incarnate and become the worst mass murderer that planet has ever seen"

The incarnations who chose to follow the words/orders of hitler did most if not all of the killing as far as I know. A soldier might blame a leader, to whom the soldier probably is mere cannon fodder, but the responsibility for the action is that of the doer. The lips move, the forked tounge flicks, but one still has a choice. Nowadays some leaders dub warfare peace operations, and say they are spreading freedom and democracy (with bombs).

Bodies have died in numerous ways throughout the timeline, bodies will continue to so, it's the destiny of a body to die, and the sparks that gave the bodies life move on to different areas of the astral.

recoverer wrote on Apr 7^th, 2009 at 2:05pm:

Detheridge: I deleted a post I wrote to you because I thought of something better to say. Remorse, guilt, regret, shame, such words have a lot in common.

Hi Recoverer,
Yes they do have a lot in common, but it may be the differences that are important. Obviously this could descend into mere semantic argument, but I would -for discussion obviously- define in this case shame as a negative feeling about what and who you are, and remorse and regret about your actions. Guilt is a sword of Damocles (like sin) that's held over the heads of far too many people as an instrument of control and as such I believe that it can stunt personal and spiritual growth.
But looking at your other post, why do you think that the idea of a difficult incarnation is taken to an excessive extreme? I'm not making excuses or trying to minimise or belittle anyone's suffering; all I'm saying is that we don't know what pre life tests and lessons we all agreed to before we came here. Reputedly, some folks even volunteer for tough assignments before their next incarnation! (I've thought several times in this life that I must have been crazy to agree to some of the stuff I've been through -oh, well...)

Regarding 2012, there's much information about change for us on a multi dimensional level; I would guess that they'll make all our petty wars and nonsense on this planet finally irrelevant. Barbara Hand Clow states that this planet has been in a 'galactic quarantine' for many thousands of years, and it's time that we got back with the reest of our family.
I don't know if she's right, but it doesn't FEEL wrong to me, so I guess all we can do is wait and see and look out for the signs if we want to and ignore them if it doesn't suit our current beliefs. ACIM has never appealed to me so I just leave it and move on, but that's my own decision. Anyone else will have to make a similar one based on the evidence they can find and their own feelings.

.....All of which, naturally, you are perfectly at liberty to disagree with  ;D

Best wishes,

David.

Volu:

Going by your line of reasoning, if man A pays man B to kill man C, man A is innocent, because man B pulled the trigger.

Regarding your comment about people sending bombs in the name of democracy and peace, your line of reasoning suggests that if man D pays man E to kill man F, then man A becomes innocent.

Your last comment is a form of moral relatavism that justifies murder.  When it came to Hitler, there was more involved than the numerous people that were killed during World War II. Many people sufferred in a manner that served no purpose. Even today there are skin heads, nazis and KKK members who take part in hate crimes, partly because they are influenced by what Adolph Hitler said and did.

In the past, if I remember correctly, you defended Val Valerian. If he played a part in your forming your way of thinking, perhaps you should consider what he said, even though he claims that people who aren't in their last incarnation as he is, don't have the ability to question what he says. It is really sad how new age sources lead to moral relativism to the extent they do.



Volu wrote on Apr 7^th, 2009 at 3:42pm:

Alan, "So according to this logic the immortal soul of Hitler looked down on the earth and said, you know what I will incarnate and become the worst mass murderer that planet has ever seen" The incarnations who chose to follow the words/orders of hitler did most if not all of the killing as far as I know. A soldier might blame a leader, to whom the soldier probably is mere cannon fodder, but the responsibility for the action is that of the doer. The lips move, the forked tounge flicks, but one still has a choice. Nowadays some leaders dub warfare peace operations, and say they are spreading freedom and democracy (with bombs). Bodies have died in numerous ways throughout the timeline, bodies will continue to so, it's the destiny of a body to die, and the sparks that gave the bodies life move on to different areas of the astral.

Hello Detheridge:

I figure that God didn't create us as a bunch of mindless automatons that have no choice over what we become. We come into this World and are exposed to a mixture of influences, and sometimes people have a hard time listening to their higher self. We end up creating a bunch of incarnation possibilities that aren't preferable but have to be lived because we create them.

I don't know who Barbara Hand Clow is, but I agree that the human race has gone through some difficult times, and it is time that we get back with the rest of "our family." That's a nice way to put it. :) I received spirit messages which stated that if a limited number of people get to the point where they live according to love to a significant degree, they'll have a positive effect on the rest of the World to a significant degree.

This is one of the reasons I don't like misleading sources. They interfere with the growth process of people who could make a difference. If people close down their hearts to the problems of this World, they close themselves off to a very strong impetus for spiritual growth.  If an unfriendly influence wanted to find a way to curtail the spiritual growth of this planet, if would find a way to get people to limit their growth, without them realizing that their growth is being limited. A system of thought that in some way minimizes the fact of how many people (and animals) suffer in this World, could prevent a person's heart from fully blossoming.

Regarding guilt, people often feel guilt when they don't have a reason to feel guilty. On the other hand, sometimes they feel guilty because their conscience causes them to do so. When people don't listen to their conscience, they do immoral and unloving things.  

Juditha,

My question is off topic, but I'm sure it is of interest to long-time posters on this site.  For years, you and your twin, Deanna, have posted on Bruce's site.  But Deanna seems to have dropped off the face of the earth?  Is she OK?  Has she decided not to post any more?

Don

Recoverer,
"Going by your line of reasoning, if man A pays man B to kill man C, man A is innocent,  because man B pulled the trigger."

Getting someone to do ones dirty work doesn't make one innocent to me. So that's going by your line of reasoning, not mine.

"Regarding your comment about people sending bombs in the name of democracy and peace, your line of reasoning suggests that if man D pays man E to kill man F, then man A becomes innocent."

The suggestion and reasoning is all yours.

"Your last comment is a form of moral relatavism that justifies murder.  When it came to Hitler, there was more involved than the numerous people that were killed during World War II. Many people sufferred in a manner that served no purpose."

What extra you put into a rather obvious observation about the short lifespan of a body is just that, what you put into it. There are choices that are right for me, and there are choices that are wrong for me. During the mandatory enrollment for the military in the country where I am located, I didn't comply and was erased from their database. MY choice. Others? THEIR choices. I don't think any experience serves no purpose, but that doesn't mean that I want people to suffer. The oversouls of the bodies and spirits KNOW the whys of any suffering in this situation, and others can guess and believe the purpose. Some might think the oversouls shouldn't have allowed this to happen, and yet they did.

"Even today there are skin heads, nazis and KKK members who take part in hate crimes, partly because they are influenced by what Adolph Hitler said and did."

If somebody is influenced by barney to dress up in a purple dinosaur outfit, that's their responsibility. They can say barney made me do it, but that's victimhood mode.

"In the past, if I remember correctly, you defended Val Valerian. If he played a part in your forming your way of thinking, perhaps you should consider what he said, even though he claims that people who aren't in their last incarnation as he is, don't have the ability to question what he says. It is really sad how new age sources lead to moral relativism to the extent they do."

I defended my right to read whatever my heart desire, though efforts were made to try to get me to defend another's views, which is something I don't do as I can't speak on the behalf of anybody but me, so you're not remembering correctly. If you knew the material, not basing it on hearsay or second-hand opinions, you'd know which books valerian wrote and which he didn't. New agey? Not even a little bit.

Volu:

Perhaps you wrote what you didn't mean. When you said:

"The incarnations who chose to follow the words/orders of hitler did most if not all of the killing as far as I know. A soldier might blame a leader, to whom the soldier probably is mere cannon fodder, but the responsibility for the action is that of the doer. The lips move, the forked tounge flicks, but one still has a choice."

I figured you excused a man such as Adolph Hitler for his actions, by placing the blame on the people "Adolph" instructed.

When you said:

"Nowadays some leaders dub warfare peace operations, and say they are spreading freedom and democracy (with bombs)."

I figured you were trying to minimalize what Adolph Hitler was responsible for, by stating what other people do. I figure one thing has nothing to do with the other.

When you said:

"Bodies have died in numerous ways throughout the timeline, bodies will continue to so, it's the destiny of a body to die, and the sparks that gave the bodies life move on to different areas of the astral."

I figured you were saying that the many deaths Adolp Hitler is responsible don't matter, because all bodies die.

I figured this way, because you were responding to the below quote from Alan. Considering the context, it is hard to figure that you meant something else. If you meant to say that Hitler, those who followed him, and other people who start wars are responsible for what they do, then I figured you would've made at least one statement about how Adolph was responsible for the many negative things that happened when he was in this World. A person who starts a negative chain of reactions is responsible for doing so.

From Alan: "So according to this logic the immortal soul of Hitler looked down on the earth and said, you know what I will incarnate and become the worst mass murderer that planet has ever seen."

Related to what I just wrote to Volu, would it be reasonble for a drug pusher to tell a judge, "Hey your honor, if those people would've refused to take drugs, I wouldn't be guilty of anything"?

Don-

Re your question, sometimes alter-egos serve their purpose and they are no longer needed.

Rondele and Recoverer are stating the truth and sometimes the truth hurts badly.

A deceiver of will mimic almost exactly the real truth and then add a little cyanide to the bottle of truth so that IT can stand back and watch you die, both spiritually and physically

There is a way that seems right to man (the Jesus of ACIM) and it leads to death.


And there is a way of God that leads to everlasting life

A deceive like the cunning "jesus of ACIM" will mimic almost exactly the person of the real Jesus, including . love, compassion, everything is saccharine sweet artificial lovey duvy, lovey duvy nonsense,

The fake demon jesus of ACIM tells you "what you want to know"



"The true real Jesus tells you what you should know"


The real Jesus tells you love costs you something , love is a sacrifice

There is a war of light and dearness, good and evil raging not only on earth but in the heavens(the universe)

Recoverers Alien and devil are real not delusions

Alan McDougall wrote on Apr 8^th, 2009 at 4:08am:

The real Jesus tells you love costs you something , love is a sacrifice

I have to say that I completely disagree with this. Love by its innate nature does not 'cost' anything, and if there's a sacrifice involved then its not love, it's control. If 'Jesus' claims this, I would question if the guy is the real McCoy........


Quote:

There is a war of light and dearness, good and evil raging not only on earth but in the heavens(the universe)

How come? The only war that's raging as I see it is the one for control of the human race and its spiritual evolution. As RAM has written and many other posters on this forum have communicated, there's far more going on here that's positive , particularly the transformations of the various Focus levels up to 27. This does not constitute a war of light and darkness to me.

Best wishes,
David.

Recoverer,
"Perhaps you wrote what you didn't mean. When you said:"

Nope, I wrote what I mean.

""The incarnations who chose to follow the words/orders of hitler did most if not all of the killing as far as I know. A soldier might blame a leader, to whom the soldier probably is mere cannon fodder, but the responsibility for the action is that of the doer. The lips move, the forked tounge flicks, but one still has a choice.""

"I figured you excused a man such as Adolph Hitler for his actions, by placing the blame on the people "Adolph" instructed."

You can figure and assume, but that doesn't mean I fit your projection. I responded to the notion that hitler was a mass murderer, because for me, that leaves out the soldiers and the public swayed by lame setups like the reichstag fire. Hitler was responsible for HIS actions, and the henchmen responsible for obeying and carrying out his plan. So, in conclusion, I think that responsibility lies with more than just one figure.

""Nowadays some leaders dub warfare peace operations, and say they are spreading freedom and democracy (with bombs).""

"I figured you were trying to minimalize what Adolph Hitler was responsible for, by stating what other people do. I figure one thing has nothing to do with the other."

Drawing parallels between linear then and now isn't about minimizing anything, that's your assumption on my behalf.

""Bodies have died in numerous ways throughout the timeline, bodies will continue to so, it's the destiny of a body to die, and the sparks that gave the bodies life move on to different areas of the astral.""

"I figured you were saying that the many deaths Adolp Hitler is responsible don't matter, because all bodies die."

Adolf and his henchmen. It's a response to wailing over dead bodies. In a deeper sense, yes, I don't think non-animated bodies are sacred, but disposable vehicles for experience. All bodies die indeed. But that doesn't negate what you choose to do while in the body will imo either retard, halt or further your progression.

"I figured this way, because you were responding to the below quote from Alan. Considering the context, it is hard to figure that you meant something else."

If you think it's hard to figure otherwise, that's your challenge.

"If you meant to say that Hitler, those who followed him, and other people who start wars are responsible for what they do, then I figured you would've made at least one statement about how Adolph was responsible for the many negative things that happened when he was in this World. A person who starts a negative chain of reactions is responsible for doing so."

You may figure that I should do this or that, but that doesn't mean I am going to do it. I don't conform to what others think I should do, unless I think it's the right thing to do.

"Related to what I just wrote to Volu, would it be reasonble for a drug pusher to tell a judge, "Hey your honor, if those people would've refused to take drugs, I wouldn't be guilty of anything"?

What would happen in a court of law is obvious, as the pusher did his part, he's responsible for selling the drugs. The druggie is responsible for buying, and his actions while under the influence. If a store clerk sells a spade to a customer, and the customer uses the spade to make a point to his friends, by holding it up and and telling them, 'Yes, I am calling a spade a spade, so there you have it!', the store clerk cannot be held responsible for that action.

Alan,
"And there is a way of God that leads to everlasting life"

You mentioned hitler in an earlier example, what do you think happened to him after he kicked the bucket? On my part I find it strange that an alleged non-mythical omnipotent being, with rules to follow for the believers, would allow mass murder in the first place.

Volu


l
Quote:

"And there is a way of God that leads to everlasting life" You mentioned hitler in an earlier example, what do you think happened to him after he kicked the bucket? On my part I find it strange that an alleged non-mythical omnipotent being, with rules to follow for the believers, would allow mass murder in the first place.

During my near death event one of the things I  asked the Being with me was exactly what you have asked me, why is there evil, and I told you in a previous post there is a battle of light and dark, good and evil, death and life, choose the one you like

God is light and in him is no darkness whatsoever. (Thus God is just light) and darkness is not part of his being

God looked at the DARK and said LET THERE BE LIGHT The battle of light and dark began way back in the primordial moment. It is still raging and if you cant see that you must be blind and deaf to the reality all around you

Love is costly, it is not a feeling, that is compassion, love in an action of altruism Mother Teresa is a prime example of real love

I was taken to a place, that most call hell , this place makes the Christian Hell look like a children's picnic. I saw Hitler and many of his like suffering all the horrors they had inflicted on their fellow humans It is a place so terrifying that even God does not want to look into it

I am not the only NDE that has seen this place of unspeakable horror, go to Kevin Williams near death site and read it there for yourself.

Existence is not what we believe it to be, it is not what we want it to be, IT IS WHAT IT IS

God a MYTH? then why are involved in a forum of those who KNOW GOD EXISTS?

Answer these questions with a yes or a no

Did Hitler do in His terrible life what was needed to come to god?............?

Did he follow the way to life?................................?

Or did he follow the path and way to death?.............................?

You just a tiny insignificant mortal yet you have the presumption to tell a infinite being how to rule the universe, Have you never heard about free will, if God took Hitler's free will away from him, being divinely just he would have had to have done that to every other person on earth? Thus humanity reduced to robots

I am not arguing with you, I am trying tO change your thinking so that you can embrace the light and banish the dark from your life

THERE IS A WAY THAT SEEMS RIGHT TO A MAN BUT THE END THERE OF IS DESTRUCTION

Follow the example of Hitler, according to your logic there are no consequences or accountability for your actions in life. As for me I am following the path of JESUS. Take your pick a despot or incarnated God

Alan-

You are a wise person.  Wisdom doesn't come easily or quickly.  I know when I was young I was susceptible to lots of things that today I would turn my back on.

New age stuff, unfortunately, seems to appeal to those who want an easy way out.  ACIM provides an easy path paved with a seductive message.  Who wants to hear about sin and consequences when they can read that there is no sin and there are no consequences?

But again, this is the direction our so-called culture is going.  At our local university, they are playing a triple X rated movie for the students as part of a human sexuality class!  And yet at this very moment, that same university is considering banning prayer at graduation time.  

I suspect that ACIM would have no problem with pornography either. After all, it's just an illusion. Why feel guilty about something that isn't real?

All we can do is hope that people will rediscover what discernment is, and how to use it.

R

I find such arguments as the one above threatening and repulsive. With all due respect, Alan, your reply to Volu seems inappropriate to me. It is too forceful, in my humble opinion. I have had to listen to so many such arguments, and have been forced to respond to such 'yes or no' queries under pressure by those more powerful than me, and it really upsets me to read such things anymore. You don't have to understand me, and I have no intention of going into my background on this. Enuff said.

Rondele

You are also wise Rondele, your sensible posts indicate to all those who remain open to real logic like yours

Whether or not writing about the shortcomings of some channeled sources is useful to others it is useful to me, because I'm writing a book, and there is a good chance I won't say anything about channeled sources, because it doesn't seem to be productive to do so. All you end up doing is turning people off.

I'm not suggesting that people can never speak about false channeled sources, but it'll probably serve my book better if I don't say anything about them.

Say for example I believe that the suffering in this World does matter regardless of what some sources say. I don't need to name such sources in order to make my point.

Alan,
I don't agree with most of what you wrote, but you seem to skip pleasantries and just get on with your thoughts, no sugar coating added, and I like that.

I agree that there's a battle between light and dark, polarity friction, but I choose to ying/yang them, which both polarites despise, but that's my way. One example of the polaric game is choosing between a despot or an incarnated god - either you're with us or you are against us. I choose neither. I've tired of their lust for control over me, both light and dark.

Your questions of yes or no I will not answer because I don't comply to demands made by anyone. Not to any demands by entities who set themselves up as gods, nor friends, nor governnments, nor peer pressure, nor group consensus, nor light, nor dark, or anyone who wants a piece of my power (over my life). If anybody isn't happy about having power over their own lives, and want power over others, that's a red flag for me.

I am not an insignificant mortal, as I am not the body, which is indeed mortal. The body will die regardless of jogging and balanced food intake, regardless its wish to be forever young and live forever, regardless of lifeproloning drugs and healing, regardless of the wish to have a spririt animate it just a little bit longer, regardless of futile attempts to clone and thus extend the life.. of the body. When time comes and I go to the astral, I can fend off both polarities. After that I'll go back to my soul and and exit this game.

I question everything that I want to, and that kind of questioning has led me to know that gender is of this world, and not of the beyond, as female and male energies are blended in a soul. That god is a male is another clue to me of the origins of the idea regarding this deity, and that an infinite being would demand worship and a following is another clue to me that this being at best would be immature. And spirits having human experiences being reduced to robots is one of the reasons I don't like deities. I see free free will and deities as mutually exslusive. Conform. Bow. Scrape. Worship. Comply. You have your thoughts regarding this, and I have mine.

If you want to follow the path of jesus, that's fine, for you, and I will not try to change that, as my experience is that a part of getting out of the polaric loop is about releasing control of others.

Volu:

It is possible to see Christ as a wise and loving friend, rather than a controller.

Regarding his having authority, I can't say to what extent it extends. I figure there are some higher level beings that have organized things in a really wonderful way so not only they, but other beings can enjoy what they started. If such a being invites you to enjoy what it has created, there is nothing wrong with approaching this being with love, respect, humility and grattitude.  If a person is more interested in pounding his (or her) fists on his chest and declaring I'm as great as anybody, then I suppose such a person can find his or her own way.

Since it is possible that God might be the first being to get everything going, one might end up quite lonely if one chooses the chest pumping approach.

One time I was shown a ball of white light.  It was composed of many bits of white light. A few bits of light flicked off of the ball of light and into the darkness. I heard the words, "They thought they were more important than everybody else." I figure if one wants to join the great oneness that God started, a little humility is in order.

Control is a meaningless word when you deal with beings who live according to love and light, even when these beings look after everything because it serves the greater good.

You know, sometimes it seems as if you're contrary just for the sake of being contrary.

Recoverer,
"Since it is possible that God might be the first being to get everything going, one might end up quite lonely if one chooses the chest pumping approach."

One of the ways of the polarities to get you to comply is to try to make you (soul) feel small. I'll be allright. And control according to light and love can include guilt laced percieved loneliness. That's not my experience, and I'll stick with that.

Volu:

I doubt you came to that understanding yourself. You probably read it from some questionable source. Some of the sources that speak of density levels seem to be questionable. Perhaps you would do yourself a big favor to question them.

If a spiritual approach doesn't inspire a person to have humility towards that which is divine, it is probably bogus. When a person experiences divine love, they clearly understand that humility is a big part of the formula. Until a person is willing to humble his or herself towards that which exists as a higher level of being, he or she won't be able to experience the divine treasure that is available.

Chest thumping isn't impressive and is quite transparent.



Volu wrote on Apr 8^th, 2009 at 5:48pm:

Recoverer, "Since it is possible that God might be the first being to get everything going, one might end up quite lonely if one chooses the chest pumping approach." One of the ways of the polarities to get you to comply is to try to make you (soul) feel small. I'll be allright.

The beginning of wisdom is when you finally realize you really don't know much at all.

"Knowledge" is plentiful, but wisdom is scarce.

Recoverer


Quote:

Whether or not writing about the shortcomings of some channeled sources is useful to others it is useful to me, because I'm writing a book, and there is a good chance I won't say anything about channeled sources, because it doesn't seem to be productive to do so. All you end up doing is turning people off. I'm not suggesting that people can never speak about false channeled sources, but it'll probably serve my book better if I don't say anything about them. Say for example I believe that the suffering in this World does matter regardless of what some sources say. I don't need to name such sources in order to make my point.

I really hope I am still around when you complete your book, you have much to offer the world


I really think your book should at least mention the subject, and the abuse and falsehood and money generating aspect of it

Maybe also make a similar section about these exclusive raging shouting TV evangelist. The world needs a real eye opener on these money grabbing corrupt fraudulent charlatans. Of course there are exceptions , but we have lost our trust and as for me I now reject the whole bunch as liars

Anyone using Gods name in this appalling way needs a real wake up call,

Jimmy Swagart and many other screaming day and night about sexual immorality and then being caught in the very same act.

One thing and maybe the only thing that made Jesus very very angry was hypocrite. "You whited dead graves, , you generation of vipers you  hypocrites, you are like the tombs of the prophets, all bright and shiny on the outside but on the inside you are dead men's bones"

Now does that sound all lovy, lovy, lovy, or is that an angry righteous man warning these depraved hypocrites to change their ways. Why warn them if there were no consequences for their corrupt lives?

During my NDE the one thing that has stuck in my mind like a huge image, was the unimaginable anger of God against those who abused little children

They will account to a prefect righteous God for their unspeakable depravity,  according to the being with me, that was the very worst sin , and people who do that, it would have beeing better that they had never been born

There is a sin for which there is no forgiveness, in this life and the next, and that is the sin God is speaking about.

If you molest a little perfect innocent child, then you are molesting ALMIGHTY GOD. That should be a frightening thought.

There are degrees of sin, to steal a loaf of bread for your starving family is not the same as brutally murdering a person. Anyone who says that all sin is exactly the same to God, in speaking nonsense, if we can differentiator between a sin of like the holocaust to that of stealing a loaf of bread for our starving family how much more can a God of infinite intellect and righteousness do the same and more?

Alan
 

Recoverer,
"I doubt you came to that understanding yourself. You probably read it from some questionable source. Some of the sources that speak of density levels seem to be questionable. Perhaps you would do yourself a big favor to question them."

Books and interactions with others can be inspirational, but first-hand experience is the key. In my opinion every source should be questionable, not in the sense that questionable means dubious, but for reviewe, by you, for your path. Doing myself a favour is a one-size-fits-all approach. If one size fits all, boards like these wouldn't exist, as matters of the afterlife doesn't compare to the popularity of jumping though the hoops located here. If monroe was to adhere to group consensus, travelling OUT of the body wouldn't be a priority, as matters IN and of the body are all the rage. What I find interesting is the dynamics involved with moving from common group related experiences to experiences of an individual nature. Many different techniques are used  with the purpose of bringing any rebels into line. The first nail to stand out is the first to be hammered down, and humilty is this matter is one where the hammer would be allowed to do what it does.

"If a spiritual approach doesn't inspire a person to have humility towards that which is divine, it is probably bogus. When a person experiences divine love, they clearly understand that humility is a big part of the formula."

I've had experiences that have moved well beyond words like love, where words fail to be descriptive. Some people are filled with humility at the sight of the pope. I'm not. Affection has a quality that I enjoy, but I feel affection for friends not masters.

"Until a person is willing to humble his or herself towards that which exists as a higher level of being, he or she won't be able to experience the divine treasure that is available."

I see that as prostrating. I like the know yourself phrase, because that has opened a door, for me, into seeing the higher level of beings. The body obviously isn't a higher level of being, but the spark animating it is, for me. If you don't like that way, so be it.

"Chest thumping isn't impressive and is quite transparent."

I'm proud of who I am, no matter what you or anyone might label that, and whether you find that impressive or not isn't a concern for me.

Rondele


Quote:

The beginning of wisdom is when you finally realize you really don't know much at all. "Knowledge" is plentiful, but wisdom is scarce.

Also,

"The beginning of wisdom is the fear of God"

In when a person said they believed in God , but just believing was insufficient

"You believe in God and in that you do well. but I tell you now, so does the Devil and he trembles"

Alan

all of those who say..."if u think this is heaven...then it IS heaven...need to visit some of the third world countries..where kid's eyes r gouged out n they r "trained" to be beggars...they need to see...a gurl who is raped even before she understands her own anatomy...they need to understand the suffering a person goes through when he sees his/her loved ones body...not in one part...but in pieces...having said this...i dont say this is hell...but i just wonder if free will exists....doesnt the freewill of the ppl who go through brutal treatment exist?...Why shud we single out Hitler...Isnt George Bush equal in the pain that he caused to so many iraqis?...for a third person..hitler wud be the pinnacle of terror n devilish acts...but what about that ONE person who was killed by Ted Bundy?...In my opinion...well honestly...i dont think i have an opinion..coz when i think of such things..my faith in the after life etc shakes...in fact crumbles..

And please no one say USA Liberated Iraq...thats BS...if anything, its pushed Iraq into an even deeper poohole

Quote:

"The beginning of wisdom is the fear of God"

So much for wisdom...

I agree. You can't completely love something if you're afraid of it. Respect is one thing, being intimidated is something else.


I Am Dude wrote on Apr 9^th, 2009 at 12:26pm:

Quote: "The beginning of wisdom is the fear of God" So much for wisdom...

Hi Don     Deanna is coming back on here soon,shes just had a lot of bad depression lately,shes getting better now,thanks for asking,love juditha and deanna,God bless you.

Hi all of you thanks for all your replys ,so much to think about there.

When i wrote what i did on this post,i felt that i was being guided to write what i did,as i was more or less being told by spirit to write and this is what came out.

I beleve that people like Hitler did not agree to come down here and cause all this suffering as God being a loving God would not have allowed it,i beleive that when a child is born,they are given the freewill,that God has given us all and some children grow up being influenced by violence in there family or being put down as a child,or given a contuious of guilt and being told that everyone is better than them and some children then grow up and reinact what they had as a child.

Hitler grew up to be a monster ,the sort of monster nightmares are all about,he was just pure evil,i remember Doris Stokes a genuine medium saying that Hitler resided on this plain in the spiritworld, which is cold damp and full of those just like him,so i do not beleive that Hitler made a deal in heaven to be who he was because one our loving God would not have allowed it and also why is Hitler resideing on a plain which is the lowest you can get,if it was true that people like him decide before birth that they will do that ,then they would be rewarded in heaven and that is not how it is,him and others like him were given the freewill ,so what hitler did was down to his evil ways and our loving God is not at fault.

I know all about the guilt trip,i grew up with it,i was only seventeen yrs old when my Dad had a massive heart attack,dad was only 39 yrs old when this happened to him, my mother told me it was my fault as i gave him worry because i had not a happy marriage and i cried to my dad a lot, she said i was to blame for my dad's heart attack and i lived with that guilt until the day he died,it got me so bad that when i went to see my mother and my dad i would sit there shaking with fear,thinking all the time,if he had another heart attack it would be my fault.
Now because of this mental torture my mother laid on me ,i cannot bear to hear the sound of a heart beat because it makes me want to pass out,my mother used this against me for years to be able to control me more,my doctor told me it was not my fault and also my priest but part of me still thinks its my fault,thats one of the reasons i go to this day center and see a councillor.

So other human beings can create a living hell for you, im slowly coming out of the hell my mother gave me but it did not cause me to hate the world,i try to give out love to others as i know what its like to suffer,i've had years of it,but i'm still keeping that love in my heart.

Me and Deanna had a message from spirit Sunday,the messge was "Stop getting angry as God is going to start paying his debts".

Love and God bless   love juditha

 

Juditha:

I bet you there are a lot of people and spirits who don't believe it's your fault, including me and the spirit of your dad. Sometimes when people become angry they pass out blame in a manner that isn't justified.

[color=#000000] OutOfBodyDude

You have made your dislike of me painfully evident?

Recoverer

Guys we can all agree to disagree because we are all searching for meaning and truth, and because we are all unique entities we each tend to have our own unique view on that.

And most of us stubbornly stick to what we think is the truth, myself included. But somewhere out there must be the "truth about the truth" and I despair that humanity will never find it and never ever agree if the do. Just when the truth becomes known, some puffed up fool will change it for his/her own gain

Am I sure that I have the real and absolute truth and meaning for our existence, absolutely not??.

Recoverer you said in a previous post in this thread, that god might be the first being; I think God is much more than that.

God is "BEING" an analogy might be a great rose bush which equates to all of existence.

We are all branches, flowers maybe even thorns. But I still see a evil despot like Hitler as a dead branch in the great rose tree that we are all part of

What does a gardener do this dead branches on a rose bush, he prunes them off from the bush and burns them in the fire?

There is really only ONE BEING and its name IS LIFE and we are that LIFE.

Have al look at that beautiful painting in the link below guys , it is realy godlike and glowing

I tried to insert, image copy and past it into your browser if you are interested


http://images2.layoutsparks.com/1/53201/mr-universe-different-image.jpg

Hi recoverer Thankyou for those words,they have made me feel a lot better about myself,God bless you with love and light.

Love juditha

You're welcome Juditha.


wrote on Apr 9^th, 2009 at 5:10pm:

Hi recoverer Thankyou for those words,they have made me feel a lot better about myself,God bless you with love and light. Love juditha

Alan

I like you man!  I just disagree with some of your philosophies.  Don't take it personally... I just believe it is important to realize that there is little wisdom in harboring negative emotions such as fear.

Guys we can all agree to disagree becuase we are searching for meaning and truth.

Recoverer you said in a previous post in this thread, that god might be the first being, I think God is much more than that.

God is "BEING" an analogy might be a great rose buth which equals all existence.

We are all branches, flowers maybe even thorns. But I still see a evil despot like Hitler as a dead branch in the great rose tree that we areall part of

What does a garnener do this dead braches on a rose bush , he pruses them off from the bush and burns them in the fire

Quote:

God is "BEING" an analogy might be a great rose buth which equals all existence.

Last time I checked, rose bushes(I think that's what you were trying to say) are not scary.  Neither is "God" or AllThatIs/Source.  Tell me Alan, what is there to be afraid of?  And why is it wise to entertain this negative belief?