Why would the majority of the population of this planet (somewhere around 7 billion) choose to incarnate into abject poverty, starvation and hopelessness?

Nice life experience, that.

Has someone who can OBE asked that question? Looked into it?

What about those souls (of the 7 billion, in poverty) who die and get trapped in focus 23? Who's been rescuing them?

http://www.globalissues.org/article/26/poverty-facts-and-stats

To gain experience and learn lessons that only those situations provide, the purpose being greater spiritual growth.

but in future times to come wat lessons can one learn...look at the negative energies around....humanity is going for a toss.. ::)

The majority of conciousness that ever visited this planet would theoretically be stuck in focus 23 for eternity.

Nice one.

It is true that this life is not 'fair' for so many. It is painful to suffer, and it is also painful to watch others suffer.

What can we learn from this?

I Am Dude wrote on Mar 26^th, 2009 at 2:39am:

To gain experience and learn lessons that only those situations provide, the purpose being greater spiritual growth.

Hi OutOfBodyDude,

If life is a school, I'd like to see it with my own two (non-physical) eyes.

At the moment I believe we're either trapped in a spiritual prison (dumping ground) or one of the lower astral hells.

Just looking for answers,

Neil

First off, spirituality, and moving toward love of God and love of others has little to do with what we associate with the ego on earth (wealth, good looks, winning awards, etc.)  That is not to say that the two are incompatible.  It is your true deepest thoughts that get converted by the common subconscious mind into your reality.  Born into poverty, there are those who rise up and out of it.  Others don't.  What separates the two groups?  Their mind, their true deepest thoughts.  

Money is not evil, neither is wealth, yet if you believe that they are deep down, you will likely either not be wealthy, or suffer as a result of your thoughts.  In contrast, those who believe that our natural state is that of abundance, when the thought and intent slips deep down, usually find themselves at some point in those surroundings.  

I don't believe we choose poverty or wealth before incarnating.  Perhaps friends and family who love each other incarnate together.  Perhaps we are meant to see, through living life, how our deepest thoughts and intentions translate into the real world.  We are meant to learn the power of intention, the joy of focusing it on being a loving person, and the misery associated with egocentric selfishness.  

You can learn these lessons in wealth and abundance or in abject poverty.  Only when you have seen for yourself how your deep beliefs and intentions create circumstance in your life (I call it affecting probabilities), can you appreciate this.

Matthew

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but in future times to come wat lessons can one learn...look at the negative energies around....humanity is going for a toss..

Generally speaking, the lesson one learns through encountering negativity is how to overcome it by realizing one's own true power and finding one's inner self's infinite source of strength and love.  I have learned these things through personal experience, although I was not born in horribly negative conditions.  Rather, my negative thought patterns created those negative circumstances in my past.  

I disagree with Matthew when he says we do not choose poverty or wealth before incarnating.  I strongly believe we have a choice in all aspects of our existence, regardless of our conscious ability to realize this.  I believe we are each born with our own general "theme" to experience and learn different things suited to our own personal spiritual quest.  I doubt we are just tossed somewhere on earth blindly.  He is right that we choose who we incarnate with, but our free will doesnt end there!!!  It is true, our deepest thoughts and intentions translate into the real world, and that is how most of our lives are created... and therefore, our deepest thoughts and intentions are translated into the real world before we manifest ourselves upon it, and so we basically think ourselves into existence here on earth by our higher self.  We experience what we need to experience.  This is decided before we incarnate.  


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The majority of conciousness that ever visited this planet would theoretically be stuck in focus 23 for eternity.

I disagree.  In fact, explorers are saying that less and less inhabitants are occupying these lower belief system territories as we approach the future.  Also, since it is the nature of our consciousness to explore and grow, it's safe to say that staying anywhere for eternity is basically impossible.  I would say only a small minority of individuals become stuck in the lower bsts.

Out of body Dude wrote: "I disagree with Matthew when he says we do not choose poverty or wealth before incarnating.  I strongly believe we have a choice in all aspects of our existence, regardless of our conscious ability to realize this.  I believe we are each born with our own general "theme" to experience and learn different things suited to our own personal spiritual quest.  I doubt we are just tossed somewhere on earth blindly.  He is right that we choose who we incarnate with, but our free will doesnt end there!!!  It is true, our deepest thoughts and intentions translate into the real world, and that is how most of our lives are created... and therefore, our deepest thoughts and intentions are translated into the real world before we manifest ourselves upon it, and so we basically think ourselves into existence here on earth by our higher self.  We experience what we need to experience.  This is decided before we incarnate."

Recoverer responds: "I believe that a lot of negative incarnations are produced in this World not because the spirit World wants them, but because people keep producing them. Consider all of the kids that are molested, beaten and neglected by their parents and other people. I doubt that their souls require such lessons, it is just that as I wrote, we keep producing such lifetimes.

Here's another example. I saw a show where all these little kids are forced into prostition (a far east country, I can't remember which). An American family mortgaged everything, moved to this country, and helped some of these girls escape. Years later they are still traumatized. I really doubt that such experiences are required.

What about kids who are raised by satanists? It is awful what these kids have to go through. I won't mention the details. I find it hard to believe that such experiences are needed.

When a father starts beating on his little kid, it is more about him than what his child or any other child needs.

Certainly our souls are smart enough to find ways to grow that don't require the above stated negativity. If we keep producing such life times, what choice does the spirit World have? Should they find a way where they make it so a bunch of mothers can't have children? Should they make it so animals can't produce livestock that will be grown is harsh and cruel conditions?  Should that Sodom and Gomorah thing happen again?"   

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I believe that a lot of negative incarnations are produced in this World not because the spirit World wants them, but because people keep producing them.

Your right, Recoverer.  And this is what I am saying as well.  My point is that we have the choice and freewill to have any type of experience we want, and going along with what you are saying, these may not be ideal experiences, but produced from negative thought patterns and false beliefs- which is how they are chosen-from our belief systems and thought patterns.    

Perhaps these experiences aren't required, but they are brought into one's existence usually through one's thoughts and beliefs- but some situations are also chosen in ahead of time, from what I understand.  For example, maybe those children who are molested were themselves molesters in their previous life, and need to be on the other side of the coin to learn from their past mistakes.  

There is a reason for everything.

Dude:

I guess it would be a matter of how reincarnation works, if at all. Going by the messages I've received and my figuring, something like a disk/oversoul sends out incarnations, and the probe that would be experiencing karma would be experiencing karma that was created by another probe.  It would be taking one on the chin for the sake of the rest of the disk. Are their exceptions? Going by the messages I received, no. Of course, other people have been presented with differing information. I wonder if they looked into it in the same manner I looked into it.  I really tried to find out if each probe incarnates just once, and unless I interpreted the symbolic visual message I received wrong, each probe incarnates just once.

While I seldom speak in absolutes, I must say Dude, that we will agree to disagree on this issue.  I think you are way off on believing that we choose so much of our specific circumstance before birth; it would negate our experience here on earth - in some ways interfering with free will.  My guidance tells me otherwise.

I'm still on the fence about the nature and frequency of reincarnation.  Many times, when people are convinced that they remember a past life, they may simply be immersing themselves in a memory stored in our shared subconscious, and "feel" like it was their own experience.  And the simplistic notion that if someone rapes and murders in one life, they are destined to be raped and murdered in the next life is not supported by reported NDEs or other experiences - but perpetuated by certain religious systems who believe in reincarnation.

That being said, assuming we do reincarnate cycle after cycle (a proposition I would dispute, as I believe many of us become guides, helpers, and continue ascending in spirit rather than return to the earth plane on a "karmic wheel"),  it makes more sense that we could choose to congregate with loved ones back on earth rather than that we choose many specific circumstances prior to birth.  

The only way an incarnated spiritual being can learn and experience on the physical plane is to exercise free will, and eventually create his/her own reality on earth.  As we trace our beliefs and their trail to our subconscious and then the creation of real events in the physical world, we learn about our divine creative potential.  It would be anathema to this "game of life" to stack the deck and choose all or most of our circumstances before we've actually lived.  And, in fact, I would argue that those types of manipulations are deliberately not even possible  - it defeats the purpose of the earth plane.  

There is example after example of those born into poverty coming up with an idea of abudance/wealth and pulling themselves out of that situation by accessing their intent and creative power.  This could not occur if some cosmic pre-destination were set into play before birth.  We are born with complete free will, and if we believe in abundance, good health and success, we are entitled to it, whether in the physical world, or in the afterlife.  


Matthew

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I think you are way off on believing that we choose so much of our specific circumstance before birth

I don't believe this.  I believe that we choose our initial circumstances, perhaps up until the time when we are developed enough to begin making real world choices for ourselves.  I believe that perhaps some circumstances are set up ahead of time in our later lives... and being that every day brings about thousands, if not millions of different possible circumstances to be encounter, this is not much at all.  You are way off in believing that I believed what you thought I believed.

Hi Neil,


Without even getting into the slippery slopes of reincarnation, karma, free will vs Gods Will, etc., I can offer that in my limited experience, I have observed many kinds of "abject poverty", many kinds of "starvation", and much misguided and ignorantly concieved "hopefulness" and "helpfulness".

Human beings don't even have to look that far beyond themselves to see this poverty let alone go to another neighborhood or continent.

I can surmise like others have, that your comments are related somewhat to a material orientation, and that is certainly a valid concern, but in my view this is the last place to look (at least exclusively)  for either causes or solutions, even though they seem to originate there.

Most, if not all legitimate spiritual paths address the monumental issue of the endless recyclings of ignorance being blindly and ineffectively applied to attempt a solution to the results of Ignorance and the multifarious (even infinite?) ways it manifests on the physical plane.

Unless and until each person seriously addresses this issue of "poverty", "starvation", and "hopelessness" on an individual basis, the world will continue to manifest it on a collective basis.

Just my view.

Best regards,

- u

Sorry, Dude, my mistake.  In fairness, I simply responded to your saying: "I disagree with Matthew when he says we do not choose poverty or wealth before incarnating.  I strongly believe we have a choice in all aspects of our existence, regardless of our conscious ability to realize this."

That is why I felt we were so far apart in our thoughts.  Seems like we may not be after all.

Peace

Matthew

Quoted from the poverty web site:

Survival for children:

"    Worldwide,

       * 10.6 million died in 2003 before they reached the age of 5 (same as children population in France, Germany, Greece and Italy)
       * 1.4 million die each year from lack of access to safe drinking water and adequate sanitation"

Global spending: Military spending in the world $780 billion
Narcotic drugs in the world: $400 billion (and so on, and so on)

"And compare that to what was estimated as additional costs to achieve universal access to basic social services in all developing countries:

Basic education for all      $6 billion
Water and sanitation for all      $9 billion
Reproductive health for all women      $12 billion
Basic health and nutrition      $13 billion"

I wonder how much opportunity the children who died had to change their views on poverty?

Recoverer

Reincarnation is a very interesting subject for me, and one I need to explore much further, beyond what I have read.  What makes the most sense to me is that we only incarnate once, and like you said, the other incarnations are actually other aspects of our higher self having their own experiences, but since we are connected as one through our higher self, we share these experiences on a higher level.  

So in my example, the child who was molested could be connected with a child molester through their higher self, and that molester would learn from the experiences of the molested.  But this is such a complicated subject, I am stilly trying to figure it out.  

Maybe we have a choice if we want to be reincarnated ourselves.  Some explorers believe this is true.  I don't know if I agree with this belief, however.  It seems like the energy of our consciousness grows and develops and expands as we progress through our lives, and the totality of our individual consciousness would be too much to have reincarnated.  

Perhaps a new individual would be created with an aspect of our consciousness to have its own experiences, and being that this new being is actually a part of us, we would share these experiences in a very intimate way.  I suppose this is how the higher self works as a whole.  So maybe we can become a higher self ourselves, while still being a part of a greater higher self, so it would be like having higher selves within higher selves.  This is what makes the most sense to me.

No problem Matt.  I can understand why you misunderstood me.  I meant that we choose poverty or wealth in that I believe we choose where, when, and with who to be incarnated, and therefore know our initial circumstances, whether this is poverty, wealth, or somewhere in between.  

I believe we go into this life with certain general goals of what to learn.  

I also strongly believe that we make connections with others before our incarnation, and probably during it as well in higher levels, to bring about certain specific encounters and experiences which will serve us later in our lives.  But like I said, this is not an everyday thing.  It would probably be a special occasion circumstance.

Dude:

I'm not one hundred percent certain, but going by the messages I received (and other factors), each probe/self learns from its disk, yet still continues to exist in its own way. Or in other words, if a disk sends out 1,000 probes, in the end you get 1,000 selves with the same knowledge as their disc, albeit, with some minor differences.

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Recoverer: I'm not one hundred percent certain, but going by the messages I received (and other factors), each probe/self learns from its disk, yet still continues to exist in its own way. Or in other words, if a disk sends out 1,000 probes, in the end you get 1,000 selves with the same knowledge as their disc, albeit, with some minor differences.

I think Albert is correct. To say this another way: Our Total Self / Higher Self / Disk is consciousness that has the ability to extend a stream of it’s consciousness into the physical world to learn / evolve / grow spiritually by experience. It seems logical that it would be possible to extend many streams of its consciousness in whatever direction it chooses. This idea would also coincide with the idea that there is only one incarnation, rather than many for each personality / probe. Each personality continues to evolve / progress spiritually in the nonphysical.

We only need to watch the evening news to clearly see much of the pain that exists in our world.  Most of the time we try to distance ourselves from it with thoughts and beliefs of this pain and suffering as having been created by and belonging to others.  We don’t understand and realize that each of us at an individual level is responsible for the creation of the world’s suffering.  Or that on a higher level of being this suffering is divine.

Yet, if we consider that all matter is created from consciousness, the idea that the earth is a live sentient being and that we are part of its body, then this makes sense.  The physical earth, just like our bodies arose out of the consciousness that created it.  

While I’m not so sure if the creation of suffering to the extent that it exists was intended or was created out of chaos, I do believe that we as individuals are responsible for the creation of all of the destructive forces as well as the salvation of these forces as we each contribute feedback within the collective consciousness.

Such a thought may seem overwhelming to most of us, which is probably why many people turn away from the immense problems humanity is faced with.  It’s difficult enough to deal with our own individual problems that arise in our everyday lives.  Yet, if we recognize that everything we do affects everything that exists, then each of us as individuals contributes either continued suffering or salvation from it as we live our daily lives.

Recognizing that we each are joint creators of all that exists in our world and that we each have made the world to be the way it is, is the first step toward any desired transformation.  As with all transformation process we move into the tunnels of darkness in order to emerge through a gateway of light.  

We each as individuals create the darkness to move through and in so doing consciousness not only becomes individualized, it becomes personalized as well.  In this way, then, darkness or suffering can be seen as divine.  Rather than push our individual darkness of suffering away, the transformation process requires us to move through it, to experience it in order to be transformed into the light of love.

Trying to suppress, cover up or turn away from the pain of suffering only serves the status quo.  Transformation cannot take place as long as we choose ignorance regardless of whether or not we do so consciously or unconsciously.  Many times healing comes only after we have experienced the pain of suffering to a great enough extent that we are willing to work through it to find solutions for the relief of it.

Given a choice of feeling pain or feeling pleasure, the great majority of us would choose to feel pleasure.  Why?  It is because we are afraid of feeling pain.  None of us truly desires to feel pain, so we do everything we can to try to keep ourselves from feeling it.  But this doesn’t work.  

At best we are only able to suppress, cover up or ignore the pain for a short period of time until we are faced with it once again.  Our lives become a vicious cycle where we continually wear ourselves out in an attempt to not feel pain and in so doing we only create more pain that we will eventually have to face.  Remember that the transformation process requires us to move through the darkness and this is the way to healing not only the pain within ourselves, but also the pain in the earth herself.

The longings of the human soul have no boundaries when it comes to creating the diversity of the world.  Through this immense variegate among the nations earth becomes alive with wonder and excitement.  It’s like a playground in which we can experience the distinction necessary for individualism, and yet do so without creating the pain and suffering such as we see among nations in the world today.

The creation of nations was never meant to become a battleground.  Cultural diversity was intended for the creation of discernment of duality without becoming completely submerged within it.  However, possibly because of an element of a chaotic nature within consciousness itself, perhaps an unexpected, yet fundamental belief in separation as reality occurred.

It is our concrete belief in separation that beckons us to return to earth time and time again.  This is the current relationship with have with earth and this relationship causes fear, so we come here because we have the desire to dissolve fear.  Yet it is through this fear that needs dissolving that we continue to create more fear because our experience of duality has created cross-purposes within the desires of human consciousness.

These cross-purposes are created when our intentions fueled by our desires are in conflict.  Desire is the origin of all our feelings and actions.  In the human mind exists the desire to heal something of which it is afraid.  The cross-purpose in this is the desire to not feel the pain fear causes.  Since desire is the whole of life brought forth in the receiving of and in the radiating forth the vibrations produced by the law of attraction, consciousness reaches out toward the direction that it feels the most affinity with.  

It is the commonality of all our human fears that are the deeper source of both individual fear and those that create world conflict.  In other words, we all have many of the same fears and it is these fears that have produced all of the problems we see in the world.

We all fear illness, death, loss, poverty and a lack of freedom.  We all also desire to create that which is opposite these – health, immortality, gain, wealth and freedom.  In many ways we have experienced success in our desires and we can continue to do so by understanding the workings of consciousness.  

Yet what many of us fail to understand is that the cross-purpose in creating health for example, is actually the desire to alleviate the fear of illness.  As long as fear is present in consciousness, then consciousness will continue the affinity with it.  If we truly desire health, then we must not fear illness.  It is our fear of illness that keeps drawing us toward the creation of illness.

We all fear that someone will take from us something of value once we have established it in our life.  Yet, the only one that can accomplish this is our self.  For example, if we fear poverty, then our desires arising out of that fear in which we act to prevent personal poverty will contribute to the creation of poverty on the larger world scale.  

We all see this everyday of our lives, as the fear of poverty manifests as greed.  Our personal fear of poverty or that of not having enough also serves to maintain a mass belief in the fear of poverty that results in everyone trying to get more and to keep more for their self.  This greed resulting from having an affinity with the fear of poverty has brought about impoverishment of the world’s resources through a struggle for economic gain.

It is the things that we fear and despise the most that seem to be the easiest for us to create.  This is because there is great power in mass consciousness.  A small system within a greater system is directly connected to and immediately affects the greater system.  In this way, whatever is strongly held in the beliefs of the mass consciousness becomes a governing factor within consciousness as it relates within the law of attraction.  Thus fear serves in the generation of more fear.

Beneath all of the fears imaginable rests a single fear that began the spiraling effect of all our distinguishable fears.  And creations such as that of greed have arisen out of and ultimately rest on the foundation of our deeper original existential fear.  Because of this original and consciously ingrained fear, we all have the desire to feel safe, yet the desire to feel safe arises out of fear and therefore we maintain an affinity with it in the consciousness of mankind.

If we return to the premise that we can experience the distinction necessary for individualism without the creation of fear and it’s resulting consequences, perhaps then, we can begin to create a new consciousness in which we can each release the fears accumulated throughout the ages and thereby transform the earth.

We begin by recognizing how our individual desires are in cross-purposes with each other.  If we each were to make a list of our desires and take these desires into the wisdom of our inner self we would begin to understand that many of our desires are designed to assuage fear and make us feel safe, yet they will never make us feel safe because of their affinity with fear.  Fear begets fear and this always results in adding power to humanity’s creation of negative intent within belief systems.

Rather than add power to the consciousness of fear by affirming it, we can choose to examine our desires to uncover the fear contained within the beliefs surrounding them.  As we recognize our own responsibility in the way we have created the world, we also empower ourselves to change our negative belief systems into those that would project those things we have come to value, such as love, caring, peace, and trust not only within the consciousness of our personal relationship with our self, but also in the consciousness of our immediate relationships, and on to those of world consciousness.

Kathy

It seems we are in a BST which rejects the reality of whats happening in this world.

The abomination = Earth. And the "Discs" obviously don't care.

We're in a Green Zone (those who have internet), isolated from the Red Zone (poverty), those who will shoot someone dead for $1.00. Those in the Green Zone appear to feed off the Red Zoners without being concious of it.

Related to what Kathy wrote, I believe that if we don't allow ourselves to acknowledge the problems this World includes, we allow a part of our heart chakra to be closed.

Yet, once we allow ourselves to be aware, it doesn't do us any good to constantly worry about what takes place. When we worry we add a negative vibration and negative thought energy, rather than positive energy.

This is something I need to get better at. Allowing myself to be concerned while at the same time sharing a positive vibe.

Regarding the below, perhaps the disks do care, but it is up to us to change things, with divine help provided in a manner that is hard to measure.


[quote author=purplehaze link=1238041485/15#20 date=1238173664]

The abomination = Earth. And the "Discs" obviously don't care.