Hi, to All,

I Remain perplexed as to why we people still confined to our mortal bodies are supposed to help another soul into the afterlife. How can theyget lost, I did not during my NDE

Read Psalm 21 God seems quite able to do this function without our help

Anyway there is the angel of death who is really a kind and loving fellow who performs this function , does he really need our help?

Alan

Alan-

Here is a paste from my post on the Spiritual Communication thread.  It is relevant to your question.

In another thread, Don pondered, why guides would not be in a better place or spiritual state to help stuck people then we, the incarnate.

Don, you should re-read Howell Vincent's book Lighted Passage!

For those who don't know, Vincent was a Presbyterian minister who published the book in the 1940s, during WWII.  His daughter Rea and her husband were killed in a car accident during their honeymoon.  

Vincent had several contacts with Rea after her death.  Here are some pertinent passages about retrievals that both he and Rea were performing.  There are lots of insights here!

"Immediately after th tragedy of Pearl Harbor, I became conscious of Rea's presence and cooperation whenever I prayed for those killed in battle, that they should be given light and be enabled to follow that light up to the Father.  AS I was inviting the bewildered spirits who had gone out suddenly from earth life into a condition for which they had only a little knowledge.......I became conscious that Rea was with me, that she was leading crowds of spirits from battlefields and bombed areas.....She was cooperating with me in prayer vibration to meet the world's most crying need."

"I do not know how essential we mortals may be in this cosmic gleaning which Rea and many others carry on daily.  We learned that the physical humanity of us can aid these bewildered multitudes of spirits where great and good spirits may not help.  (Italics mine.)

These words from Rea to her father: "To join us in the work for which we were called (ie retrievals) is the greatest gift you can give us.  Your prayers and faith are our credentials with the lost.  As we approach these bewildered deadwho know not which way to turn,we bid them look into your hearts for the credentials that validate our service to them.

"The reason for this is that they cannot see us clearly, our atmosphere or environment of light is too bright for them. Often they have more difficulty than living mortals have in seeing us understandingly."  Italics added.

"They are still of a slow, mundane vibration of life, and so they have no trouble in seeing you (ie Vincent), and they carefully scrutinize your motives.  The love and good will for them that they see in your heart, as you lift them to the Father in prayer, assure them of our sincerity, even though they cannot see us."

So here is a story of retrievals, called rescues, that was going on in the 1940s along with an explanation as to why living humans are in a better position than are helpers to help those who have died, especially in sudden and/or traumatic conditions.

Hi Alan, i agree with what Rondele posted.  I wrote something similar, also on another thread.   I believe its a matter of vibration resonance.  Everything runs according to vibratory frequency, and because of the inherent like attracts, begets, perceives, etc. like law which the Creator of this Universe built into this system, and if you understand how this law operates then its easy to understand why humans are needed in this whole process.   I believe some few people incarnate less for their own spiritual growth, but more for Retrieval work both in the etheric-emotional stuck levels, and in the physical level as well.

It's not so much a problem or matter of a guide focusing in the slower vibrating dimension, but the stuck person's ability to perceive them because even when the guide does focus in that similar focus level, its really not of that vibration (as the stuck person) but a higher (faster is a more accurate term) vibration than the stuck person.  

 Remember that it works one way, meaning the faster vibration can perceive all that which is slower in frequency than itself, BUT the slower vibration cannot perceive that which is faster until it likewise raises itself to a similar frequency.   "Stuckness" means essentially, locked into a limiting, slow vibrating frequency within the consciousness of self.

So, no matter how hard the guide tries to get the attention of said stuck person, it can be very difficult just because the stuck person is more or less "blind" to the guide's presence because many guides are of super faster and refined vibratory levels.  

A human comes in, because many stuck nonphysicals can still perceive physical energies--because in many cases they still think they are physical.

Physical is slower vibrating than even stuck nonphysical levels.  

See?  That's why stuck people can perceive us much better than they can perceive most guides.  That's why humans are often integral to this process because we can make the stuck person more aware of the guide, in various ways, both consciously and unconsciously.

Hi Alan,

Isn't much I can add to the excellent explanations of Rondele and Justin--so just a couple of thoughts that came to me.

Our beliefs have very real power. When some have no idea they've passed from this physical state of awareness, when they not only believe they are still alive but have no clue that anything transpired to permanently alter their situation, they can remain in that alive-in-the-physical belief. The only folks they perceive are those who still have a in-the-physical feel to them, such as retrievers. I have encountered a few stuck after death who were able to perceive sudden movements or fleeting glimpses of nonphysical somethings in their periphery, but it only seemed to compound their fear, unfortunately.

All of us getting stuck here and there, being retrieved...helping in retrieving others, realizing that no matter what areas of consciousness we focus our attention into, it's all a part of this great adventure we're zealously moving through.

I have great respect for your religious beliefs, Alan, and I hope this isn't taken the wrong way...but I've often wonder if Jesus was a retriever, on a massive scale. This earth life system is one of many belief systems, and I believe the only way to get anything out of it is to go all out and really get involved, be all the people/characters we can be, live the worst and the best and to the fullest, party down :)...and this also means probably getting stuck here and there. Out of love and understanding did he endeavor to get our attention, to remind us of what to avoid, and what to embrace, to free ourselves?

Much love,

Ginny

Hi Allan. I'm agreeing with Ginny's insight.

however my 2 cents for what it's worth is that no matter which side of the veil you perceive yourself to be on, dead or alive, people need people.
A retriever helps their own evolution as much as a retriever helps the being retrieved because we are all connected as one.

in the same way smiling at someone in a physical situation helps make that person's day.

retrievers themselves could be considered death angels if you like. it's only words with a subtle twist.
keep in mind we are all lost until found by love. god is love and we are a part of that love.
how can they get lost? because of what they believe is true about themselves as Ginny said, it's all in what they believe.

beliefs create your own reality circumstances. here or there.
eventually all move on. family members are there, even if unseen. physical retrievers just speed things up a little, with love.

because people need people. every one is friendly on the other side, retrievals are normal.  :)

[color=#000000]Guys,

Are these lost souls the result of sudden death, like a soldier having his head shot off and as a result having no time to realise that he has crossed over ?

Thank you all for your good comments

As far as retrievals go, I have experience seeing people in the very last moments of dying but not actually yet dead at the time

It is these traumatised people that I have attempted to help

Alan[/color]

you are a retriever Alan. remember the lady you helped out of her twisted body? that was a retrieval

Alan McDougall wrote on Feb 25^th, 2009 at 6:23pm:

Hi, to All, I Remain perplexed as to why we people still confined to our mortal bodies are supposed to help another soul into the afterlife. How can theyget lost, I did not during my NDE Read Psalm 21 God seems quite able to do this function without our help Anyway there is the angel of death who is really a kind and loving fellow who performs this function , does he really need our help? Alan

devayan wrote on Mar 8^th, 2009 at 2:56am:

Alan McDougall wrote on Feb 25th, 2009 at 6:23pm: Hi, to All, I Remain perplexed as to why we people still confined to our mortal bodies are supposed to help another soul into the afterlife. How can theyget lost, I did not during my NDE Read Psalm 21 God seems quite able to do this function without our help Anyway there is the angel of death who is really a kind and loving fellow who performs this function , does he really need our help? Alan

Yes Alan  I am also perplexed by the way souls are seemingly lost when discarding their mortal frame..Some of what I have read makes alot of sense..about those who sleep deep in their belief of annihilation .My brother who is an Adventist could easily fall into that endless sleep,he believes it so strongly..But what of those who seem so lost??Wandering souls..We live in a Divine Universe...I also don't understand how souls can be so lost..I mean what goes on "up there" if souls are lost/trapped in their ignorance..My question then can be..What happens to them if we as retrievers don't find them ??Are all destined to be "Found"??What Divine Plan is set up that they be found??Is there one??Is this some random finding??Or is there a structure that ensures all lost souls will be found??So??  what is the cosmic plan here?Perhaps Bruce could give us some insight.Are all lost souls found?? and in the end how does this happen??How could Divine Providence allow any souls to be left lost or eternally asleep??I feel we as earth bound humans all too easily try to explain these concerns from am earthly/physical  realm...I feel there is a lot more we need to learn here.
LOve Devayan

I see a retrieval as a random act of kindness, while others seem to be on a mission. The ability seems to be one we are born with, or blessed with -- the mind journeys are educational for all participants. No one has ever explained it to me, out there, except to show that all experience is connected in bizarre ways. Perhaps retrievals are only one of many ways in which human beings affect the larger creative process in which we coexist.

Nice comments from all of you guys

I realise that this thread should really have been started in the Retrieval section, but after reading what is discussed there made me realise that I lack knowledge in that area to participate meaningfully

I have investigated the near death phenomenon in great detail and have not found even one case where the soul was lost

But please don't get me wrong, simply because I have not been used this way does not mean that retrievals are unnecessary or do not happen

The closest I have come to retrieval a soul, is just before death, I have helped persons accepting what has happening to them explaining in a kind way that they are passing over into the AFTERLIFE

Alan

Greetings,

it seems that we all go in whatever direction our beliefs take us.
The important factors must be to take kindness and consideration into whatever realms we find ourselves.

Bets

Could it also be that we perceive our imaginations to be partitioned off from each other while we are here and if that concept carries over into the afterlife for someone then it would be difficult for them to realize something that is happening is not their imagination. I can see how one could get lost in that respect too...but it all feeds into beliefs, I guess.

This is a great thread. Thanks to Alan for starting it and such good replies. I think I really like the open mindedness of the whole thread. It's a real treat to read.

Yours,
Bo

Hey Bo


Quote:

This is a great thread. Thanks to Alan for starting it and such good replies. I think I really like the open mindedness of the whole thread. It's a real treat to read.

I have been elsewhere for a while and a nice friendly comment like yours makes my heart glow  :)

I still like the idea of "The Lord is my Shepard". Rather than "John etc etc is my Shepard"   8-) This smiley is a little like my real image

Devayan



Quote:

My brother who is an Adventist could easily fall into that endless sleep,he believes it so strongly..But what of those who seem so lost

These believers that we have no souls or spirits really irritate me. I have debated this type of nonsense with a Jehovah Witness believer. He believes and nothing can move him from his belief that we do not have a soul but are just a bundle of chemicals mixed with water

When you die that's it, except if god has retained you in his memory and recreates your mortal body in the resurrection

I tried in vain to get over to them that a memory of you in gods mind and a copy of your body would be just a copy and you would be gone forever

I am sure if they insist that this is the truth god will give it to them what they so dearly beieve and on death they will simply cease to exist.

Much of the afterlife is what we imagine it to be?


Alan

Hi Alan, you asked if the afterlife is what we imagine it to be.
I'd say yes to that.
but go one step further to say it's even more than we imagine it to be.

hope you are well and happy over there in Africa. waving at you!

Hey Dear Alysia

How are you also?,  over here in sunny South Africa we are going to have an election in April. Not to elect a president but to elect a party

SA like all African republics is almost a one part state ,although some others are allowed to enter the fray

And he is a corrupt rapist and thief I will not mention his name


Much unlike your wonderful USA we will have a leader/president imposed on us regardless which polical party wins the election



Alan

Hi guys, and Alysia.  :) Please pardon my long absence. Having got going again after my back problems last autumn I've been buried in sorting out a bathroom so we could move my 92 year old mother in. I ended up doing quite a lot of the work myself, and didn't want to get involved in discussions I couldn't support.

This is a topic that I've thought about from time to time too - with the sense that there's possibly the potential to do harm as well as good. Also feeling that the reality of mind is such that our intervention is not required after death to progress beings through the afterlife - that it is actually a very minor influence.

I've no direct communication on the topic, and so am talking from a mostly theoretical perspective.

It seems likely however that beings will be led by their beliefs no matter what we do. Monroe's books for example are full of stories of those he recovered 'peeling' off and away as they were headed where he thought they should go.

This suggests that the most we can hope to do is to trigger helpful realisation or insight or dropping of a limiting belief in a being who is already more or less 'there' in terms of view, but who for some reason has forgotten, or been distracted and become 'stuck'.

It makes sense that as physical being of a certain vibration (as posted above) that there will be specific situations we can help with - provided our motivation is correct.

Most traditions would suggest that we're best to focus on our own spiritual path - that that's how we can do the greatest good. My instinct is that if we find ourselves involved in or genuinely drawn to retrieval situations at an appropriate point on our path that that's fine.

It's almost certainly wrong however, and indeed a classic ego trap to force the issue - even if it happens we have the psychic ability required to do this. It'd be very easy to get hung up on wanting to be perceived as a 'master recoverer', or on grasping after such a status. To start aggrandising ourselves through it - talking big, feeling important, gathering a following and so on. Or to run scared from it, if it's genuinely on our path.

All the while being led by ego and selfish needs, and consequently not by love. And as a result almost inevitably misleading any being we do manage to engage with.

While in this sort of space it's perhaps also worth raising some caution about the afterlife. It's not necessarily, and to my mind definitely isn't 'heaven' or anything like it. Certainly not if you take the Buddhist or ACIM views on board.

Put another way it's just the post-death non-physical continuation of ego based existence - a part of the ongoing cycle of life, death, dissolution and rebirth. (except for those realised beings who have transcended it, but chosen to manifest in this reality to help others as in the Buddhist bodhisattva tradition)

It's not heaven, because unless we can transcend ego it inevitably leads back into other lives - with the possibility of our getting sidetracked into not very pleasant existences on the way, and with the likelihood of undergoing a highly unpleasant process of experiencing our ego/persona from the previous life disintegrate during the transition. (my sense is that we tend from this life to access to early stages of the afterlife or the first bardo - that there's a lot we're not aware of.

That's not to say that the afterlife does not present great teaching and learning experiences, much as in the case of physical life but with extra possibilities. Also that there are not the usual mix of negative and very positive beings at work trying to help us or hinder us in what is after all apparently still a dualistic or relative state of existence - there's no reason to think it's all good.

The point is surely that in the end how we fare in this transition will be determined by our beliefs/state of mind - because they determine our behaviours.

Which brings us back to the point that it very much behoves us in life to work on healing our separation from God and our brothers (ACIM language), or on progressing towards realisation/transcendence of ego/the cycle of rebirth (Buddhist language).

Which inevitably means (instead of for example getting sucked into intellectual ego games) progressing our practical learning to see and live reality through spiritual eyes through self work - ultimately to realise that individual existence is basically a delusion and the cause of separation/the harm we do to others.

:) I guess the good news is that regardless of what we do we in the end can do no 'real' harm, at least not viewed from the perspective of Spirit...

How's your back doing Vajra?

What do you mean by ego? A sense of self?  The self-centered part of ourselves?

I suppose that opposed to helping out by doing something such as retrievels, a person could just sit back and say that the world is nothing but an illusion and everything is just an ego trap, and do nothing. Of course if spirits actually do get stuck and need help from us embodied folks that would be a mistake.  To them the statement "nothing you see is real" wouldn't matter much, considering their suffering. Perhaps we shouldn't count our chickens before they hatch.

I wonder if Helen Schuchman has been retrieved. Her state of mind was quite negative when she died.  Before she could ask for help, she'd have to be willing to admit that what she did is wrong.

Is it egotistical to claim that a course comes from Christ, without making a serious effort to find out if it actually does? Our so-called egos can cling to just about anything.

Hi R. The back is progressing well thank you. I had a follow up two weeks ago with the surgeon which confirmed that the bone graft has taken well and OKed me for physiotherapy. I've actually been quite active since before Christmas. There's a scary amount of metal in there holding it all together, but it's holding up very well. Thank you all for your care and support, I know it helped a lot.

By ego I mean the part of our mind that identifies with our body in its  physical context as a separate/individual existence. That consequently feels the need to protect itself against other beings and the environment, and struggles to connect with Spirit due to the resulting separation.

There's of course a higher more generalised part of our mind too that's remained in contact with Spirit, that doesn't perceive beings as separated, but be we largely lose contact with that too.

What I tried to say above is that recovery is presumably fine in appropriate circumstances - that is appropriate for both the recoverer and recoveree. But that forcing the issue one way or the other is likely to be a mistake.

On Helen Schucman. I don't know very much about her, but gather that she turned against the teachings of ACIM before she died. It certainly sounds like she could have been a candidate who might have benefited from help after death - and that help to be effective would likely have the effect of helping her to drop whatever restricting belief she had. (she may or may not have been wrong in turning against ACIM - she was after all reportedly a channel, and as such not necessarily particularly highly evolved)

I guess it would be egotistical to seek personal advantage from a knowingly false claim that a message or body of teaching came from wherever.

On the other hand we're all limited by where we are on the path. If we receive something and hold genuine beliefs about it, then provided we don't get into purposeful deception what else is to be done?

If we're  subject to inaccurate perception as a result of ego tendencies, then inevitably we'll as a result be drawn towards inaccurate and unreal conclusions. Which may well form as a result of a predisposition not to check stuff adequately.

But absolute proof one way or the other is unlikely, certainly not based on whatever we read, or hear or are told - writings and teaching are in the same way subject to error. (no matter how many claim them as true)

On the other hand if we proceed intuitively rather than intellectrually then we can and will on occasion make mistakes - also due to static from ego tendencies. As will others listening to what we have to say - some will trash what has lots to teach, others will accept what is false without due process, and many will muddle along somewhere in the middle depending on their level of discrimination, knowing and bias in whatever direction.

We can say what people 'should' or 'shouldn't' do, but it's essentially only a theoretical issue. We are what we are at a given point, and as such can only be that -  we as much as they are subject to these problems of perception and may not be able to access knowledge. Whatever the situation we can in practice only be led by our actual beliefs - regardless of whether these are based on dodgy perception or genuine knowledge.

This I guess is the nature of path. We may pretend/pose as though we believe stuff for a while (to ourselves, or to others - knowingly to deceive or not), but in the end we each are where we are and what we are - there is no other possibility.

That's not to say that with life experience and spiritual work we can't and don't evolve continuously.

It's clear you're not keen on ACIM or the Eastern systems, but in keeping with the above we each make our choices and proceed accordingly. We can't claim to be absolute authorities....

Greetings,

Vajra, it's especially good to hear from you!

Regarding the morality/ appropriateness of retrievals, the process of most retrievals for the retrievers is to first ask Guidance for help. I believe this Guidance is like an OverSoul or Guardian Angel; when asked, it suggests right choices. A few times my Guidance has redefined my purpose in going or even denied that some retrievals were possible.
Alysia was the first  on site to  begin emphasizing this important step -- many thanks, Allysia!

When first attempting retrievals, it's good at first to let Guidance make the choices of where one goes. I suspect that the souls we are sent to are those we have some sort of attachments to through our Disk family or Earth-bound contacts.

Our discussions here, not Bruce's examples in his books, got us into the idea we could go get whomever we chose.

Most or all retrievals that others requested were actually visitations. I used that word instead of retrievals in my reports on the retrieval forum. I, or we in some group efforts, were allowed to visit the deceased, verify who they were to the best of our ability, and communicate with them briefly on whatever issue their earthbound relative/friend had requested.

So what you are discussing  is partially a problem of semanatics --we just don't have enough words for this newish activity!

Bets

Hi Bets. Good to hear from you too, and hello to the others. There's lots of new names around here!

Thank you for that. The point I think may be exactly that - that we should be guided by the highest available knowing and wisdom. That the greatest good is unlikely to be served by getting so hung up in 'wanna be' mode that this becomes impossible.

That said the reailty is that we all act according to our beliefs and resulting motivation. Even trying for the best available outcome we can't deliver the 'optimum' or perfect one. (if only because most that happens in this reality is relative).

To grasp after or get hung up on delivering perfection to the point where it becomes an impediment and distorts our behaviour is equally a dualistic viewpoint.

My sense is that that too (acting as we inevitably do out of less than perfect motivation) is a part of the learning experience for all parties concerned. It inevitably results in  suffering, but equally that clarity of feedback is an important part of the way Spirit uses life experience to teach - to help us move away from the egotistical delusion that blocks our remembering what we truly are...

Hi everybody..as a way to participate on this thread I've written an article and provided a link to anyone interested, regarding R's question what is the ego.

I worked on it about 4 hours so I hope someone benefits besides myself from writing it.
it was far too lengthy to put up here.
http://blog.myspace.com/laughingrain

Vajra:

First of all, I apologize if I came off as overly grumpy about ACIM. Obviously I'm not a fan of the course; however, sometimes my intentions start out as good and then the feisty part of myself kicks in. I need to overcome this feisty part of myself.

Regarding ego, I believe we are one and many at the same time. The self-centered part of ourselves, I guess you can call that ego, causes us to emphasize the separateness if we allow it to do so.

Regarding your back surgery, I hope you have good results. I'm not one hundred percent certain how much a physical disorder can play a role. In my case, I got over my back problem by psychological/spiritual means. There are studies which show that worn discs and back pain (and neck pain) don't correspond with each other. Nevertheless, I can't say for certain that there aren't cases where a person's nerve actually gets pinched. This is something I'm trying to figure out.

Relating to what Betson wrote, I never go out and hunt for stuck spirits to retrieve. Spirit helpers direct them my way.

Sometimes the egotistical part of myself wants to take credit for helping with retrievels. I hate it when it does that.  I need to get to the point where I'm certain of my spiritual beauty to an extent, where I don't need to seek for ways to validate myself. I say this, even though I believe it is beautiful when people do things to help other living beings.

No hassle R, there's not too many of us that don't harbour egotistical urges - just more or less camouflaged in some than others.  :-[ Likewise I was making a general point when I posted - I'm sorry if it came across in any way provocative.

I'd agree 100% that we manifest at multiple levels, including the individual. I guess the issue arises when we identify with the individual persona as what we are - we progress from that point to build a whole edifice of beliefs to prop up that core one.

I know you're not keen on ACIM ad eastern stuff, but for what it's worth they would both suggest that ego is not just a wrong view but actually itself and the reality it experiences the direct result of our mistakenly deciding that the individual self is what we are.

In the ACIM case it's taught as being a response to the fear experienced on the initial separation from God by the collective mind of which we are a part - all of the subsequent urges, beliefs and motivations follow from the attempt to support this view, and to suppress an (inappropriate) fear that it will result in punishment by God.

On the other hand the interesting bit is that it's said that those that have achieved realisation (or transcended ego - whether having subsequently returned to earth life to help others, or during the remainder of the life in which it happened) still function perfectly well as individuals - it's just that they are no longer subject to ego driven fear and the resulting selective perception, bias in mind processes and selfish urges.

Such a person I guess is open to the whole picture, properly in touch with their heart side/guidance/higher self, and processing at optimum  - and so free of the risk of getting involved in recovery for the wrong reasons. They have in effect moved beyond the need to exert vigilance over ego tendencies, to simply not having any.

The question I've not so far managed to unravel in any very specific way is whether or not there is any correlation between being able to access the required mind states to engage in recovery, and being of a level of spiritual development to be able to handle oneself correctly (lovingly) in the resulting situations.

It seems maybe that there may not be - in that there seem to be those with abilities that choose to use them wrongly, for egotistical reasons. Albeit with disastrous eventual consequences for themselves.

What do you reckon?

Vajra:

Responses below in quotation marks:


I'd agree 100% that we manifest at multiple levels, including the individual. I guess the issue arises when we identify with the individual persona as what we are - we progress from that point to build a whole edifice of beliefs to prop up that core one.

[The above seems to contend that the creative part of our being can only be used to create meaningless delusion. What about love and beauty? Certainly it is okay for souls who know how to live according to love and wisdom to make use of the creative part of their selves in a meaningful way.  The creative aspect of our being is divine just as awareness and love are divine. In fact, I believe that love is one of the attributes that came to be after source being learned to use its creative aspect of being to create love.  Love implies more than one, because love is an attribute that is shared.]


I know you're not keen on ACIM ad eastern stuff, but for what it's worth they would both suggest that ego is not just a wrong view but actually the direct result of our mistakenly deciding that the individual self is what we are.

[The above is one of the reasons I don't agree with ACIM and Eastern teachings.  I used to believe in the no-self viewpoint for a number of years, but when I reached the point where I realized that the gurus of the World don't have all of the answers, I started to come to understand that it is possible for unique souls to exist, without these souls being nothing but an illlusion.

Consider the factor of mind. Each of us has the ability to think in our own way. For a while we get bogged down in our psychological conditioning and thinking seems like a problem. Eventually our souls reach a state of being where it isn't a problem for us to have the ability to think.

Our ability to think and learn isn't something that exists independent of the awareness part of ourselves. Our ability to be aware, think, learn, understand and create according to what we learned, are all connected.

The extent to which each of our souls is unique is demonstrated by the fact that each of our souls manifest according to their own level of development. It isn't a matter of a bunch of unconnected mind energy moving about in a chaotic random way and our experiences changing from moment to moment. Rather, there is a connection between what we experience one day and what we experience the next day,  because the spirit energy that has been allocated to each of us can be allocated in a meaningful and permanent way.

This is more than intellectual banter. Some of my experiences and the experiences of other people have found that our souls do have a factual reality. This is hard to see if we keep looking for ways to see that our soul isn't there. Sure we can't grab hold of one object and say this is "I." But we can experience as much of the totality of ourself as we are able, and come to understand that we do exist as unique beings. We can do this and at the same time see that we are parts of a greater whole.

If there is in fact only one being and the rest of us are a bunch of delusions, then I figure part of the totality has already claimed dibs on being this one self. This means that rest of us will eventually puff out of existence and only one self all by its lonesome self will exist. Thank goodness that my experiences and the experiences of others have found differently, even though people have claimed that there is no such thing as a specific entity while existing as specific entities.  :D]  

In the ACIM case it's taught as being a response to the fear experienced on the initial separation from God by the collective mind of which we are a part - all of the subsequent urges, beliefs and motivations follow from the attempt to support this view, and to suppress an (inappropriate) fear that it will result in punishment by God.

[I figure billions of souls in various bodily forms have incarnated on this earth. I find it hard to believe that we have a basic guilt about separating from God. For one thing, I don't believe that we actually ever completely separate from God.  Also, I believe that we incarnate into this World for very definite reasons, not just so we can some day escape it.  It seems to me that ACIM might cause a person to believe in a guilt that we don't originially have.  I don't believe that this is productive. It might set a person off course.  Belief systems have a way of doing so.]

Try an experiment.  Take pen and paper and read all the alleged retrievals on the Retrievals Only section of this site.--and elsewhere.  Note the variety of communication of the astral projector with guides and the retrieved spirits.   Then notice the variety of communications between the guides and the retrieved spirits.  

In my view, such research warrants three conclusions.  (1) Given the type of specific information often shared between guide and projector, there is no raason why guides can't be asked to provide verification that might mobilize a skeptical world to action in the great cause of helping "lost" discarnate spirits.  (2) Given the type and scope of interactions with retrieved spirits, there is no reason why they can't be asked to provide verifying details that would mobilize millions to participate in this ultimate expression of love.  (3) Given the quality and lucidity of the interactions between guides and retrieved souls, there is no reason to believe that help from incarnate projectors is essential.    

I suspect that most astral projectors would love to pose such questions, but are not sufficiently lucid in their "retrieval state of mind" to do so.  Months ago, I had a lucid dream in which I encountered my long lost friend Ralph.  In the dream, I longed to verify that this thought form truly was Ralph.  But the best I could do was inanely poke him in the chest and feel the hard surface.  Obviously my bogus "verification" merely demonstrates the possibility of experiencing the sense of touch in dreams.  

The dream state will simply not allow the dreamer to devise tests to expose its illusory nature.  The quest to verify the reality of dream characters will either abraptly wake us up or prompt us to verify their reality in bogus ways.  Our diminished intellect in dream states prevents us from discerning what a genuine verification requires in that state.  For this and other reasons, I conclude that the astral retrievals posted here have no more reality than lucid dreams.  Of course, by "reality" I mean more than mere imagination.  

When I have time, I may post my own survey and resulting inferences from this site's retrievals in a new post.  

Don  

Don:

-Even if it were possible for guides to provide information that could be verified on the internet (or some other way) everytime a retrievel took place, a skeptic might believe that a person researched online obituaries, and then claimed that retrievels were done.

-Not all spirits that are retrieved will have their obituary on the internet.

-It isn't always easy to obtain a name in a clear way. Even if you do obtain a name you'll need other information, because numerous people have the same name.

-For some of the retrievels I did in a manner similar to what Bruce Moen advocates, information I could verify is the last thing I had in mind.

-If a person really wants to help, I believe it is best that he or she gives it a go, rather than wait for some detailed study to take place.

-I can't underestimate the value of reaching a point where a person understands that he or she is working with spirit helpers that won't lead he or she on wild goose chases.

I agree that in the beginning a person should find a way to make certain that he or she is actually helping with retrievels.

Albert,

Respectfully, you miss my points.  Besides obituaries, there are countless easier ways of obtaining verifiable information; e. g. phone numbers with a name of a relative or the relative's address; the city and name of one's high school and a year the spirit attended it.  Right now, only a few New Agers engage in this work.  With simple but routine replicable verification protocols, millions could be engaged in this work and the altruistic consciuosness of our race would be transformed by this awesome way of making a difference in people's lives.  It strikes me as immoral to contact a guide wtthout pursuing this grander all-inclusive purpose.  It's like discovering a plant chemical that cures cancer and getting so engaged in helping cancer patients one by one that you forget to offer this miracle cure to the medical community for testing, so that this disease can be irradicated from the earth!  

And you ignore my other crucial point: lucidity in alleged astral states is no greater than that of lucid dreams.  Hence, the difficulty of posing the right questions in such states and the obvious inference that neither state puts one in contact with afterlife territories.  

Consider Broce Moen's astral report of a Hollow Heaven in which a couple is expelled by Christian fundamentalist leaders for obeying Jesus' injunction that couples do not marry in the afterlife.  We can all envisage oppressive fundmentalist regidity on spirit planes, but not professing Christians who expel spirits simply because they followed Jesus' biblical teaching!  Robert Monroe's alleged past lives as a pilot dodging spears from extraplanetary cave men and as a Catholic monk sexually torturing his wife Nancy in a religious ritual from past incarnation are equally absurd.  Nor do I buy his encounter with an alien W. C. Fields lookalike.   In my view, these fantasies are the product of diminished discernment in dream states and their conscious equivalents.  God help us if we are no more discerning after death than in our dreams!  But as I said, read the many retrieval acounts here.  They imply a level of lucidity and memory that makes verfication theoretically seem rather simple, if genuine spirit contact has been achieved.

Don

Hi R. I guess I'm certainly not in a position to verify or otherwise the macro ACIM/Eastern view on ego/existence of this reality. The best I can manage is that as a working hypothesis I seem to find it provides consistent answers to many difficult questions about the nature of existence. We each have to follow our own path, and as before there's many ways up the hill.

To try to summarise one view:

The teaching is basically that mind creates, but that only creations based on love (that reflect God/ highest mind) have any real existence. That the rest is unreal, and subject to dissolution once we drop our belief in it.

The logic is basically that there is an aspect of mind that believes in separation that creates our perception of this this whole reality - the appearance of ego/self, and the context it exists within. It does this by applying selective perception - seeing only in accordance with it's beliefs.

While we experience just our own 'piece' of this separated aspect of mind, it's ultimately collectively comprised of the sum of all of the bits of separated mind 'belonging' to all the beings in this reality.

This mind or ego (whether collective or individual) is driven by fear to keep on dividing further and further down into ever more granular/individual  form - as it seeks to avoid recognition of the reality of its situation.

It's situation is built to create a preoccupation with conflict. The creative ability it draws on, and which it/we use to create it derives from God, and is love. But despite this it seeks to use it to create beings/situations that it is aggressive towards, and which are aggressive towards each other. (out of fear, and out of the mistaken sense that taking leads to growth/survival)

These realities are not supported by God/highest mind, as a result cannot be real, and exist only as long as we (not necessarily consciously) continue to believe in them.

We each meanwhile contain too an aspect of mind that knows all and is never separated from God (perhaps in the eastern traditions that which gives rise to Buddha nature) - which continues to be guided by Spirit, and eventually as a result leads to our dropping belief in the reality/beliefs created by the ego aspect of mind.

This leaves us harbouring split minds, with conflicting impulses and beliefs depending on which tune is playing at a given time. This explains too the creative and genuinely loving aspects we can display - as well as the the more horrendous variety.

The ending of this is it seems an all or nothing affair - the logic being that we can't be truly loving while we harbour elements of the selfish and aggressive tendencies of ego, and consequently perceive some people as 'good', and some as 'bad'. (fail to see their true nature beyond the veneer created by ego)

This on the basis that reality is the God created 'oneness', unity and loving nature of all beings - that our perception of separation is mistaken. When we project and judge others as evil or negative we are in this situation in effect judging ourselves.

Which  on the positive side suggests that we only have to heal ourselves to heal all.

Our task is not to learn what at the higher level we already know and have not forgotten - our task instead is to drop the ego fuelled but unfounded belief in guilt and separation.

We're already forgiven by a loving God on the basis that the separation never happened in reality - our task can thus be seen actually to be only to forgive ourselves. Because by the same logic once we forgive self we forgive all.

Some of us have temporarily experienced a sense of the joy this oneness/unity brings about in higher states of consciousness - and the resulting knowing while not scientific has left us in no doubt as to its existence.

On proof or otherwise. There's actually quite a lot of documented stuff about, but if the above is broadly true it points to a fundamental issue where 'scientific' proof is concerned.

To access other realities we seem require a mind state where the thinking mind and especially ego is transcended. Having (not) done so we contact realities we can perceive/report only in time/space, linear logic, relative and ego informed terms - terms which are inherently biased and grossly unsuited to dealing with multi faceted and holistic realities which dance in and out of existence.

Is it any wonder that the spiritual traditions counsel great care in the application of rational thought to matters spiritual, and emphasise the importance of higher intuitive knowing? We're essentially stuck with the problem that whatever we believe we will perceive.

PS Don. 'sexually torturing' surely distorts Monroe's account of the past life you mention. He was in a sense tempted - and proved his worthiness to all present by not succumbing..

Hi Don, you have chosen the wrong method of afterlife contact to ask for "proof" from on a regular basis - as you yourself have surmised.  This does not, however invalidate Bruce's "imagination method."   But if I start imagining a conversation with a deceased loved one, and then imagine a helper coming and then i introduce them, I must start by making up some of the conversation.  So, its clear that these retrievals start out as fictitious imaginings.  But if one is relaxed and sincere, sometimes, the conversation will come back with responses that were unlikely to have been preset by our own minds.  Then the fun begins.

The premise is that stuck souls are still oriented in their thoughts to our plane only; that a helper in a higher plane of consciousness can't easily get their attention, but we can - for we incarnate humans are located exactly where the stuck souls have their thoughts so tightly focused.  With this reasoning, it makes all the sense in the world why we living people would be needed to rescue stuck souls.  Helpers may not be able to get their attention.  

The imagination method has strengths and weaknesses.  Its strengths include a method that any sincere person can learn, and that if carried through, the goal of getting through to the stuck soul may have worked, whether the person on earth got feedback or not.  Its weaknesses include the possibility of fooling ourselves with our own creative script writing.  This leads to a lack of factual evidence.  A pretend conversation that may become real does not lend itself to be put under the withering factual gaze of absolute verifiable proof.  Bruce has gotten his own verifications with information which could be garnered from no other living source.  He encourages us to explore on our own to get our own personal verifications.

Your request for verifiable proof would best be posed to mediums who claim to have frank and open conversations with the deceased without the use of imagination to get things going.  

I suspect that if the afterlife is real, as it appears, then there is a preset divine purpose(agreed to by a common consciousness) to the difficulty in communication between them and us.  Bruce likened it to spoiling the end of a movie for someone.  Would most people take life and death seriously if we knew with certainty that there was an afterlife? Would we have the same purpose in living, achieving goals on the earth plane? People on this board may, it could potentially be like Don said - equivalent to curing cancer but others might not play the game of life.  Shakespeare said that contemplating death gives every man pause.  "Thus conscience doth make cowards of us all." This goads us into living out our earthly existence in earnest.


Matthew

When it comes to the retrievels I've done in a way similar to what Bruce Moen speaks about, I wouldn't start out with my imagination. First I would see the image of a person that seemed to be in some sort of distress. I'd get the feeling they need some help. I would start having an imaginary conversation with them by sending them thoughts. Before I knew it I would be involved in some scene where I was trying to help a stuck spirit. This entire process would start when I was completely awake. I wouldn't go into a hynogotic state. It was more a matter of where my energy level was.

The way I help with retrievels now, the above isn't necessary.

There is also the matter of how we exist at more than one dimension. I believe it is possible that there are people who help with retrievels without realizing that they are doing so.  Sometimes they can find out about these retrievels through their dreams.

For the most part, I don't believe that you can figure out what is going on through one experience.  You have to look at all of your experiences and see how the dots connect. Once you do so you can find that even your dreams can tell you how you have helped out. I've found that once your guidance realizes that you take your dreams seriously, they aren't concerned about the minor differences between regular dreams, lucid dreams, waking dreams, and OBEs, when they send you a message.  Such information and the connect the dots approach won't do much for a scientific study, but they'll do a lot for a person who helps out with retrievels.

Regarding receiving telephone numbers, it isn't always easy to do so.  I've found that when messages are spelt out either visually, by voice or thought, letters or numbers can get jumbled. When it comes to numbers, I've received them a number of times, but five digits seems to be the limit before the numbers get jumbled. Plus, in many cases it would be highly inappropriate to call a person with the thought of verifying information. If a person wants to receive information about a deceased loved one, perhaps it is best that he or she seeks it. Perhaps a lot of people don't want to here about how their deceased loved one got stuck for a while.  This is especially so if they are already experiencing grief.

On the flip side, if an extensive study was done which shows that spirits do get stuck, perhaps this will influence some people to live their life differently.

Some more thoughts occurred to me.

-When you're trying to help a confused and stuck spirit, much of the time it isn't appropriate to start asking this spirit for a name of person you can contact, this person's telephone number, and information you can provide to the person you call.

Going my some of my retrievel experiences this is especially so, because reality isn't experienced in quite the same way. For example, as opposed to experiencing yourself carry out a sequence of steps in a linear manner, you'll experience yourself do so all at once. Linear time doesn't factor in as it does while in the physical World.

-It might be unrealistic to expect spirit helpers to know about names, telephone numbers, and whether or not it is appropriate to contact a loved one of the spirit you are helping. Also, the spirit helpers would have to provide information about the spirit you help, because you wouldn't want to call a person the stuck spirit knew, without being able to provide information that validates that you made contact. Plus, if you're working with a stuck spirit, you might not be able to communicate with the spirit helpers. In my experiences I haven't been aware of such helpers.

-Genuine mediums have come up with information that can be verified, yet their doing so has hardly changed the World. Instead, fake mediums tend to become famous, and the skeptics judge all mediums accordingly.

-I suppose that later on a person could make contact with his or her spirit guidance, and try to obtain confirmatory information this way. The question is, is it necessary to do so?

If you did try to gather information, called people, and compiled verification based information you can share, you would still need some sort of auditor who would interview the same people in order to validate what you report. Even then, some people might contend that you are in cahoots with the people you called, and/or even the auditor.  Some people might claim that you got the information from Satan.

It's maybe not by accident R that in a sense stuff only becomes more evident (we develop sight) just as proof becomes less of an issue for a person.

When you watch all the debate the one thing that seems so evident is that what we believe is always verified as a result of our pre-conceptions.

Those striving for stuff to believe in make over the top claims about paranormal events, likewise those routinely sceptic find ways to be sure they have rubbished even very credible events and phenomena.

It's almost impossible to get through to 'believers'. Even if you do chances are the data will be misused.

There's a sense about the whole thing that somehow all is revealed in time if of our own volition we set off down the path of our own free will, but remain open to all possibilities, that we go with the flow. But that 'proof' is almost withheld from those that choose/are driven by their preconceptions to be determinedly sceptic, or determined believers.

Ego driven grasping in action again I guess...

Hi,

The conceptions I've formed here through retrievals are far better than the fear-based concepts I dealt with previously.

With retrievals we seem to have an active compassionate role in making some realms better off than they were.

Retrievals bring hope to both the retrievees and also to the retriever who finds that Helpers and guidance are available in ways beyond any personal imaginings .

I tried eliminating self/ego and ended up with nothing but a strange cottage cheese-like visual to contemplate while meditating. If that is selfless egolessness, then I'm not ready for it !

I've wilfully chosen retrieving as the best belief my consciousness is capable of at this time.

Bets

Bets said: I tried eliminating self/ego and ended up with nothing but a strange cottage cheese-like visual to contemplate while meditating. If that is selfless egolessness, then I'm not ready for it !
__________

cottage cheese..yumm!!
Hi Bets. that's one strange image. the egolessness I am describing is more like a merge with god, with good feelings, with listening to inner guidance all the time. it has nothing to do with eliminating the ego, just eliminating bad feelings, depression, guilt trips on others, etc.
judgment of others and self, it's not placing stock when others put you down..it's listening to the truth, that we are loving people, and then we see this love in others; like I have seen love in you, the same love in me.

it's why I sign with love, love is the only real thing that remains after all the clouds get cleared away...

:) Cheese beats 42 as the answer to the ultimate question - the meaning of life, the universe and everything. (from Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy)  :D Which incidentally I think had the most highly realised beings in the universe as mice - so maybe there's a reason for cheese Bets..

I wasn't knocking retrieval, only (again) playing with some of the peculiarities which seem to surround this business of ego which affects almost all of us.

As Alysia says it's something that with life experience and personal work seems to eventually fall away.

It's taught using lots of scenarios to describe the process, and as being a bit of a catch 22 issue though. It could be described as the result of your shedding delusion to expose the 'true nature of mind' (Buddhism), or as the result of the Holy Spirit helping you to drop unreal beliefs. (ACIM)

The catch 22 is that if you strive to drop ego then you've turned it into an objective that you are grasping for - which by definition actually strengthens the ego, and risks getting one into acting out all sorts of 'egoless' behaviours for appearances, or to convince oneself.

What's taught is that it's more a matter of the gradual and spontaneous emergence of a reality based view - the result of developing an equanimity that leaves us free to always go with the natural flow of a situation without bias creeping in as a result of ego originated selfishness (which is in turn based on fear).

The process is maybe a bit like the fog slowly clearing to reveal a beautiful vista.

;) Please pardon my off topic banging on about ego, but it's usually seen as th central issue on the path, and seen this way could be described as being the underlying issue in respect of all the issues arising around spirituality - misuse, exploitative teachers, wannabee students, beliefs and behaviours that block and/or cause suffering and so on...

Hi

My comments are way too solemn. I wish I had a lighter touch verbally, like you, Alysia !  Vajra, just disregard my defensiveness, please.

Cheese Bets  :P