If we supposedly have a guide with us our entire physical life (as per what all mediums say), and they are suppose to be with us when we pass...  if they are there to help us, why would someone get 'stuck' and need others (whoever.. humans doing retrievals.. etc.)  to help them out? And if you are doing a retrieval.. do you see the guides too?
Aras

Hi Aras,

Check this out:

http://afterlife-knowledge.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?num=1232047038/4#4

Thanks Still_Living!

Aras,
Aras wrote on Feb 11^th, 2009 at 12:52pm:

why would someone get 'stuck' and need others (whoever.. humans doing retrievals.. etc.)  to help them out? And if you are doing a retrieval.. do you see the guides too? Aras

Why do people get stuck in ridiculous beliefs that cause them to do all manner of crazy things.  Like follow a preacher into the jungles of South America and end up drinking poison Kool Aid in a mass sucide? It's the same question as yours really.  We are free to make our choices and then live and learn from the consequences.  Guides don't dictate or impose their will, that is not their purpose.  

Sometimes the choices we make can cause us to become completely unaware of our Guide's presence both while we are physically living and when we are nonphysically living.  If we manage to get stuck as a result of such choices Helpers and Guides have no way to communicate with us to try to assist us out of being stuck.

Sometimes during a retrieval we might become aware of the person's Guides, especially if we place intent to be aware of them.  

Bruce

Thanks Bruce, I have a better understanding!
Aras

For me, the real issue involving alleged guides is quite different.  Guides presumably tune in to the thoughts, motives, and deeds of their charges.  So they would be in the best position to perform or organize retrievals.  Presumably the principles and strategies of retrievals would be part of the curriculum in guide training school.  So why are incarnate humans needed for retrievals at all?  Over the years, the speculation I have read here in response to this question seems highly implausible.

Don

 The main theory that i've heard, makes a lot of sense to me.   It's a matter of vibration resonance.   Many guides are vibrating at super fast frequencies, and while they can slow it down a bit, its hard for them to slow down to the "levels" that most stuck people resonate to and within.

It's analogous to why many humans have a hard time perceiving, especially in a clear way, many nonphysical beings, even those who are stuck.  
We're so focused within this narrow, and slow vibrating frequency band we call "physical", that until we speed up our own inner frequencies and focus less on physical, we don't have a whole lot of sucess in clear communication with the nonphysical in general.  

 Human retrievers act as a "grounding connector" between the stuck person who is vibrating closer to physical than they are to what the guides are, and the guides who are in super fast vibrating dimensions.  
Some guides (more rare than your average guide), like the ultimate guides like Yeshua, however on are on a different page altogether.  They can exist fully in physical, and in every other dimension and non dimension (i.e. pure Spirit) simultaneously.   For a "guide" to achieve this, they have to achieve while still in physical, and that seems to be a hard process to achieve in our general space/time cycle.  In the last couple thousand years, there has been probably only a couple handfuls or so, who have achieved this (the numbers seem to be picking up quickly though.).

 What's so implausible about the first part/explanation?   It's based on the law of like attracts, begets, resonates with, and perceives like law, which when it comes to perception and perceiving, always works inversely from the faster vibrating dimension down.   Meaning, the slow vibrating level cannot perceive the faster vibrating level until it changes within self to match those frequencies, BUT the faster vibrating level can perceive all levels "below" it in frequency.  

 

Justin,

In my view, at least 7 issues must be satisfactorily addressed before we resort to the desperate expedient of claiming that discarnate guides cannot "lower" their vibration well enough to perform retrievals:

(1) the lucidity of many ADCs and NDEs in which discarnate
    spirits "descend" to interact with the earth plane;
(2) the chatty ease with which mediums give and receive detailed
    information from discarnate spirits;
(3) evidence that spirits from higher planes can be present on lower
    planes through remote viewing with visual holograms;
(4) the ease with which astral explorers can move through so many
    levels of consciousness unimpeded;
(5) the dubious assumption that most discarnate retrievers have great
    difficulty in lowering their "vibration:"   For example, Swedenborg's
    guides have no problem "descending" with him to lower levels.
(6) Robert Bruce's reports of deceased loved ones "descending" from
    higher planes to interact with and retrieve loved ones in
    spirit "hospitals" in lower planes;
(7) the utter lack of expected paranormal retrieval verifications,
    including names of the deceased and their relatives, date and
    address of death, etc.  If retrievals occur at all, then the most
    likely means of retrieval is a well rehearsed process
    learned in some astral training school.

Don

I will amend my last post somewhat in response to your reply.   It's not so much a problem or matter of a guide focusing in the slower vibrating dimension, but the stuck person's ability to perceive them because even when the guide does focus in that similar focus level, its really not of that vibration but a higher vibration than the stuck person.  

 So, no matter how hard the guide tries to get the attention of said stuck person, it can be very difficult just because the stuck person is more or less "blind" to the guide.  

 A human comes in, because many stuck nonphysicals can still perceive physical energies--because in many cases they still think they are physical.

 Physical is slower vibrating than even stuck nonphysical levels.  

See?  That's why stuck people can perceive us much better than they can perceive most guides.  That's why humans are often integral to this process because we can make the stuck person more aware of the guide, in various ways, both consciously and unconsciously.

 As i've said, there are some guides that somehow merge their nonphysical and physical natures and come out with attributes of both.  I don't completely understand the process myself, but Yeshua i believe has shown it to be true.

 Re: retrieval verifications, and all that jazz.  What's a verification for one, may not be for another.   A lot of what happens in such spiritual work goes beyond the intellect, and knowings come in oft as strong feelings.  Sure, we can delude ourselves, particuarly when there is a strong emotional attachment involved like with you and Janet, but often there is not much reason to delude oneself because one is more detached to the situation.  

 Why is there a lack of specific names, dates, etc. in some or many retrievals?   Maybe there are two main reasons, some are not that good as translating nonphysical info into physical language--i can attest to this with two remote viewing practices i did and while they contained definite hits, were also distorted and unclear.
 
2, maybe most people aren't as obsessed with such verifications as you are, and therefore don't' seek them.  Remember that whole "ask and you shall receive thing"?

 Re: verifications in general, there are a couple of cases in the Cayce readings wherein he gave very specific "past" life info for a person in a time period not that far in the past (meaning, not so far that its beyond checking).   In a case or two of these, the person who received this info, went digging into various records and found that it did jibe mostly with what Cayce said.

 Would you consider such examples to be verifications for other lives and the reality of some kind of reincarnation?

 How much does something need to be verified, before it is verified in your eyes?  

 If your standards are that exacting and specific, why not provide such retrieval verifications for yourself, since you do believe in retrievals since Christ performed them?   Looking to others can be limiting.  
 The nice thing about what Bruce says and teaches, is that he says to do it yourself, and figure it out for yourself, rather than relying on another or an institution or dogma to tell you the truth of something, or not.

 I find it interesting that you oft refer to Robert Bruce.  For whatever reason, i've steered clear of Robert Bruce, as i've gotten the sense on various occasions that he is not as spiritually attuned and sincere as he would like to believe about himself and would like others to believe about him.  

 Quite awhile ago, Albert aka Recoverer brought up a dubious example of Robert Bruce promoting a certain Guru, who later on became quite well known for sexual abuse and scandals.  

 I don't remember the details, but R.B. changed his tune, and tried to rationalize his earlier promotion of that guru.   From what i remember reading, it sounded both illogical and defensive in nature.

 In short, while we all make mistakes sometimes, and can be off in our perceptions, the more spiritually intune one becomes in their consistent vibratory levels, the more clear and accurate one tends to perceive, and when you are off its usually not as severely or extremely as R.B. in that case.

 I believe there is a deeper reason my guidance has steered me far clear of Robert Bruce.  I'm not saying there isn't good material and real experiences in his book, i'm sure there are.   But the fact that he seems to explore primarily via the classic OOB state is an indication right off that he isn't the highest vibrating teacher/guide type around.

 I would not classify him in the category of disinfo or what not, like some works that have been mentioned here and i spoke up about, but relative ignorance/knowing.

Don:

Do you remember what George Ritchie wrote when he described his NDE account? He wrote that light beings hover over beings in a lower realm, as they wait for them to become tired of their way and open up to the light. As soon as a little openess occurs, they are able to make contact, but not before.  I believe that opening up to love is the same thing as being able to perceive the vibrational rate of a higher level being. I doubt that these light beings extend their entire selves into a lower realm. It isn't a 3D affair. It is more of a matter of their extending a small part of their awareness and energy to where a lower realm, while the rest of their selves remain in a higher realm.

Perhaps spirits that are currently making use of bodies are able to help stuck spirits, because the fact of their being connected to a physical body causes them to have an energetic signature that a stuck spirit can recognize.

This is how it works for me. Spirit energy is run through me throughout the day. This energy is quite noticeable. First a stuck spirit sees my physical energetic signature, and then they see my connection to the light. To be more precise, energy is ran through me in various ways according to what is required. Apparently the spirit helpers I work with need some sort of vehicle that they can run energy through. One of the reasons I'm able to help in such a way is because I have gone through extensive energetic work. Sometimes spirits are run through my energy field so their negative mind patterns can be cleansed so they can move on to a higher level. You'll like this part Don. Some of the spirits that are run through my energetic field are spirits that were attached to people. About three years ago I expressed the willingness to help with spirit detachments in a non-physical way, and my willingness was answered.

Regarding Robert Bruce, he claimed that while he was working on some notes, Sai Baba magically materialized in front of him within white light. At a later time it became known that Sai Baba molested the male children of his followers. At first Robert Bruce denied these allegations. Eventually things got to the point where Robert Bruce could no longer deny these allegations. He defended Sai Baba in various dishonest ways.  One thing he said is that the behavior of Avatars (a direct incarnation of God) is mysterious. He also said that Sai Baba had sex with these boys after they gave their approval. Outside of the fact that it is never okay to have sex with a child, much less the child of a trusting devotee, these boys didn't have time to give permission. They would enter Sai Baba's room, and much to their surprise, Sai Baba would start molesting them. It is hard to figure how a person like Sai Baba could manifest to Robert Bruce in the way he claimed.

Here's another key factor:

When a light being extends a part of itself into a lower realm, it doesn't change its nature.  It simply focuses a part of its attention into a lower realm.

Consider how it would be for God. He's aware of everything, yet he doesn't have to lower his nature in order to be aware of everything.

The fact of how God is aware of everything proves that his being is everywhere including lower realms. Yet a spirit stuck in a lower realm won't be able to sense God's omnipresence, because a stuck spirit isn't open to doing so.

The same is true for this World. God's presence is everywhere, yet not everybody is aware of it.

Perhaps a good analogy would be a set of circles. The larger outermost circles represent higher levels of being. A being on an outer circle can be aware of what takes place within the inner circles, without changing its nature. Sometimes it's hard to get a being on an inner circle to notice the outer circles.

Justin, your revised theory does not address my 7 issues any better than your original theory.  Theories derive cogency from what the philosophy of science terms their heuristic value.  In other words, that theory is to be preferred which makes the best sense of ALL the relevant variables and evidence.  One of the factors that trivializes and marginalizes astral research in the eyes of mainstream academia is the retarding influence of the accompanying New Age philosophy:
"Your truth may be idifferent from my truth; so trust your own experience and don't worry about contradictions with different types of contact with astral planes." The distortions of wishful thinking and delusions relegate this attitude to a ghetto mentality and effectively thwart the pursuit of true knowledge.  

True, some trapped souls may be unable or unwilling to perceive their wannabe retrievers, but this claim must not be generalized to explain the complete variety of retrieval options.  Once it is established that spirits from higher planes can easily communicate with spirits on lower planes apart from retrievals, the case for an essential role for incarnate astral explorers is undermined, especially when such explorers are forced to rationalize the poor quality of their limited verifications (i. e. no names, addresses, date of death, etc.).  But I'm totally open to reassessing my position if better methods and research explain these difficulites.  Speculation itself is not helpful.    

I too am troubled by some of Robert Bruce's claims, but not as much as by Robert Monroe's implausible reincarnation memories during his OBEs (e. g. his prior life as a pilot in a flying machine dodging spears hurled by cave men).  Robert Bruce's "Astral Dynamics" is far superior as a analytical work than Monroe's trilogy.  The current state of astral research is so embryonic and flawed that I have to make hard litarary choices.  

Albert, your speculation about the significiance of the light beings hovering over a hell may or may not be correct.  One of the strengths of Ritchie's book is his reluctance to interpret important events that he witnesses.  Now a psychiatric, Ritchie strikes me as the brightest and most objective NDEr.  For that reason, I much prefer his NDE account to those of Dannion Brinkley and Betty Eadie.  

Don

Don-

Recall the book by Rev Howell Vincent, wherein he mentions retrievals (he called them rescues) of soldiers killed on the battlefield during WWII)?

He said that his humanely vibrations were easier for the dead soldiers to perceive, since their own vibrations were much closer to his own.

R

Below are some possible answers to Don's list (within brackets):

Justin,

In my view, at least 7 issues must be satisfactorily addressed before we resort to the desperate expedient of claiming that discarnate guides cannot "lower" their vibration well enough to perform retrievals:

(1) the lucidity of many ADCs and NDEs in which discarnate
   spirits "descend" to interact with the earth plane;

[Such experiences are so varied, it is hard to draw any definite conclusions. When it comes to ADCs, perhaps some spirits extend a part of themselves to people who are open to receiving. If a person is grieving over a loved one, the love connection he or she feels might give he or she a better than usual ability to make a connection.]

(2) the chatty ease with which mediums give and receive detailed
   information from discarnate spirits;

[It isn't a matter of different levels of reality being located in different "physical" locations. It is a matter of different levels of reality existing on different vibrational levels. Genuine mediums probably have their chakras and such developed so they can make contact with spirits. I've seen what can happen when your energetic system changes. For example, my heart chakra is now able to open until it feels as if it is about the size of a beach ball. Certainly this will lead to enhanced receptivity. When my third eye becomes active, my entire forhead will sometimes become active.]

(3) evidence that spirits from higher planes can be present on lower
   planes through remote viewing with visual holograms;

[When I receive information from spirit beings, I often receive symbolic visual imagery. As I suggested on previous posts, my belief is that beings from a higher level extend just a small part of themselves when they get involved with a lower realm. Consider when the spirit of Christ has worked on my energetic system. I don't believe that the entirety of Christ visited me. He extended only as much of himself as he needed to extend.]

(4) the ease with which astral explorers can move through so many
   levels of consciousness unimpeded;

[Many astral explorers have a different state of mind and overall energetic than spirits who get stuck due to various states of confusion. It is significant to acknowledge that a lot of people try to travel astrally and don't suceed.]

(5) the dubious assumption that most discarnate retrievers have great
   difficulty in lowering their "vibration:"   For example, Swedenborg's
   guides have no problem "descending" with him to lower levels.

[Please see my answer to number 3.]

(6) Robert Bruce's reports of deceased loved ones "descending" from
   higher planes to interact with and retrieve loved ones in
   spirit "hospitals" in lower planes;

[Mum on this one.]

(7) the utter lack of expected paranormal retrieval verifications,
   including names of the deceased and their relatives, date and
   address of death, etc.  If retrievals occur at all, then the most
   likely means of retrieval is a well rehearsed process
   learned in some astral training school.

[We've talked about this before. I can't speak for everybody else, but in my case I received confirmational information early on, and later on it became unreasonable for me to continue to ask for information that can be verified.]

Don

I believe that much of what Justin said was both accurate and not purely subjective; perhaps my own theory which synthesizes known reported interactions on different planes might help (I'll try).  

Swedenborg, one of Don's heroes (or former hero?) gave specific examples he saw, where if a person in a hellish plane were spontaneously elevated to a higher heaven, he/she would "see nothing," whereas Swedenborg goes on to say that for a loving spirit to descend into hellish planes, the loving spirit risks much, as their thinking becomes clouded with bestial thoughts.  Prolonged stays then on the hellish plane are not possible.  This "up" and "down" cosmology is consistent then, as is what follows:

In other words, the stuck person can not look to a higher plane and see anything meaningful, and if the loving spirit descends for too long a time on the lower or hellish planes, they risk being spiritually overtaken - spirit is, afterall thought.  The spiritually advanced being might need to "lower his/her thought" to the level of the appropriate hell for only brief periods of time.

Beside Swedenborg, I know of at least two other sources that agree with this interactive cosmology (other than Moen/Monroe).  I imagine that there are certain individuals with the fortitude to descend without getting caught up themselves in the hellish thinking, but perhaps not many.  

Now take we the incarnate.  Apparently, many stuck individuals keep their attention on their former earthly plane.  If we use our imagination or meditation to make contact, in general we don't seem to take the spiritual risk that those on higher spiritual planes descending seem to take.  

For these reasons then, it seems perfectly clear why, retrievals may be better off done by incarnate humans than by guides.  


M

Related to what Doc wrote, if a spirit had to extend its entire self to a lower realm, it might have a problem. If it extends just a small part of itself, it probably isn't that difficult to cleanse its energy.

Consider how it is for me when it comes to lower realm retrievels and having spirits run through my energetic system so they can be cleansed.  After and while such an activity takes place spirit energy is run through me and cleanses me. Sometimes the energy level I experience while this takes place is quite intense. It is like having a powerful force move through you. I experience some of the negative energy that is cleansed. Once the energy pushes past my crown chakra the negative energy is gone, and I feel love and peace. Sometimes when the energy gets real strong, I have to focus my attention so I feel love, peace, faith in myself, faith in the light, and my connection to the light. Often this energy feels quite positive. It is a matter of how much negativity needs to be cleansed, and what I'm used to.

I figure that if I can be cleansed in such a way, then so can higher level beings.

Don wrote:  "I too am troubled by some of Robert Bruce's claims, but not as much as by Robert Monroe's implausible reincarnation memories during his OBEs (e. g. his prior life as a pilot in a flying machine dodging spears hurled by cave men).  Robert Bruce's "Astral Dynamics" is far superior as a analytical work than Monroe's trilogy.  The current state of astral research is so embryonic and flawed that I have to make hard litarary choices."  

Recoverer (Albert) responds: "I see a difference between what Robert Bruce claims and what Robert Monroe claimed.  My best guess is that Robert Bruce made up stories such as his Sai Baba story, being given a sword to kill demons with and his possession story, in order to build up a reputation of his being some sort of super adept. The Robert Monroe stories that Don is critical of (the cave and spear thing, getting tested as a potential priest, the W.C. Fields alien thing) do nothing to make Robert Monroe seem as if he is some kind of spiritual rock star.

Regarding the W.C. Fields thing, I don't have a hard time believing that story, because I've seen that friendly spirit beings have a sense of humor, and sometimes like to present themselves in a comical way. It is also possible that this experience was simply a symbolic way of telling Robert Monroe that different races of beings share all kinds of information including humor. Why not humor?"

To substantiate my previous response to Don, I found this excellent passage from E. Swedenborg's Heaven and Hell:


"Since the union of the heavens through inflow is accomplished by the Lord alone, the greatest possible precautions are taken to prevent any angel from a higher heaven from looking down into a community of a lower one and talking with anyone there. The moment this happens, the angel will lose intelligence and wisdom. The reason needs to be stated. Every angel has three levels of life, like the three levels of heaven. For the ones in the inmost heaven, the third or inmost level is opened and the second and first are closed. For people in the intermediate heaven the second level is opened and the first and third are closed; and for people in the outermost heaven the first level is opened and the second and third are closed. The moment an angel of the third heaven, then, looks down into a community of the second and talks with anyone there, the third level of that angel is closed; and when it is closed the angel is deprived of wisdom because her or his wisdom dwells on the third level, with none on the second and first.

This is the meaning of the Lord’s words in Matthew:
Let those who are on the roof not come down to take what is in the
house; and let those who are in the field not turn back to take their garments.
(Matthew 24:17–18)
And in Luke:
Let those who are on the roof on that day while their belongings are in
the house not go down to get them, and let those who are in the field
not turn back to what is behind them: remember Lot’s wife. (Luke
17:31–32)

There is no inflow from lower heavens into higher ones because this goes against the design. Rather, inflow is from the higher ones into the lower. The wisdom of angels of a higher heaven surpasses the wisdom of angels of a lower one by a ratio of thousands to one. This is also why angels of a lower heaven cannot talk with angels of a higher one. In fact, when they look in their direction they do not see them; their heaven looks like something cloudy overhead. However, angels of a higher heaven can see people who are in a lower heaven, though they are not allowed to carry on conversations with them, to prevent them from losing their wisdom, as already mentioned.  The thoughts, the affections, and the conversations of angels of the inmost heaven are wholly beyond the perception of angels in the intermediate heaven because they are so transcendent; but when it pleases the Lord, they are visible in the lower heavens as something flamelike from the higher one, while conversations in the intermediate heaven are seen as something shining in the outmost heaven sometimes as a bright, iridescent cloud. The lower angels can to some extent tell what the higher ones are saying from the way the cloud rises and descends and from its form."

What is truly amazing about this hiearchical structure and rules discored hundreds of years ago by Swedenborg, is the correlation found with today's explorers like Monroe and Moen - who come from a completely different background.  The correlation of these divergent sources gives much of the "proof" Don asks for as to why retrievals by incarnate humans may be necessary, and why heavenly guides could not do the same thing.

Matthew

Related to what Matthew just wrote, here's something that Dannion Brinkley wrote in his lastest book "Secrets of the light."

"However, I paid little attention because just looking at them (lower realm spirits) caused my vibration to slow to a rate that matched theirs, which was very uncomfortable for me."

He wrote later on.

"During my encounter with this mystical region, what captured my attention first was the way the thick, slow moving energy zapped my strength. It left me feeling weak and anxious.  Then I was abruptly overtaken by the uncomfortable presence of countless souls milling nearby. They seemed caught in a vicious repetition of recycled depression, dejection, and desperation."

I have to add, I don't believe that what Swedenborg wrote is completely accurate.  Once a soul gets to the point where it can live according to love and light, there is no way that it's going to get corrupted just by looking at a lower realm.  It might pick up some negative energy, but it will have enough inner strength to not be corrupted by this energy. I've seen my fair share of unfriendly spirits and have had spirits cleansed through my energetic system, and it didn't corrupt me.  I figure that light beings are in a better position than me.

Once we have the wisdom and heart to choose light over darkness, that's it.

I figure there's more than one thing that Swedenborg said that isn't accurate.  For example, that business about how when male and female spirits marry each other, they merge together, the male half takes on the role of intellect, the female half takes on the role of volition, and the female half no longer thinks.

What the heh? I don't know of anybody else who has come up with the same viewpoint. It sure don't make sense to me.  I figure that either our souls have no gender at all, or they are both male and female. Plus, are volition and thinking actually separate from each other?

Bruce Moen's afterlife accounts don't accord with what Swedenborg claims, because according to Bruce, spirits who made there way out of a lower realm do return in order to help out.

Some sources state that higher level spirit beings surround themselves with protective energy fields when they enter lower realms.  One time I was shown how light beings go into lower realms in a symbolic way. They take a shower before they enter the realm, and they take a shower after they leave it.  Going by previous messages I've received, taking a shower was a way of saying being protected and cleansed, depending upon whether before or after visiting a lower realm is addressed.

Great thread guy's. Please keep it going as I'm learning so much...My question is. At this point I basically know what guide(s)are. So, when I asked the question on how our guardian angel figures in all this on another astral planes website/forum a few years ago, I got the answer from one of the regular posters that our guardian angel is appointed by God, via his angelic hierachy, to protect our personal and unique individualized soul. I did not ask any further questions then. I'll ask them now, only one. Why does our soul need protection? Sincerely. Carl and Family  

Hi carl (and family),

I am no authority on angels by any means, but according to my understanding here is a possible answer to your question:

The immortal soul per se does not need any protection as it is completely and permanently identified with its Divinity/God and is immortal, eternal, indestructible - therefore it needs no protection. We use the term "soul" loosely to identify an individual being as a colloquialism, and it is probably the best way to speak of a human being since it speaks of the "most important" element in the life which is the individualized portion of the Highest.

What does need protection is the human being on the physical plane who is immersed in Ignorance, usually oblivious to God's Will, who's consciousness is primarily identified not with its own soul's directives/suggestions, but generally with the superficial demands of the ego, mind, the body, the "lower" emotions, etc., and is mostly not aware of the reality of the soul which often stands behind the life, supportive but not "assertive" while all this is going on.

Guardian angels may and do guide and protect someone who has limited, little or no awareness of their own "highest self"/soul/God within them. Their own soul may be more in touch with these angels than the soul's own instrumental being on the physical plane and the angel acts like a proxy for the soul.

Also, if someone is a genuine devotee with a well established connection to a great spiritual Master like the Christ, Krishna, Buddha, etc., it is possible that the Master may take direct responsibility for the life of the devotee, removing the need for any intercession by angels or other beings of benevolent service.  

Praying for protection and offering sincere gratitude strengthens these connections and helps to facilitate receptivity and further protection and awareness of the divine Grace and Compassion.

Hope this is helpful.

- u

Thanks Ultra for your explanation. I was under the impression, most probably falsely conjured up from various read sources, that the purity of the soul itself could be tainted or blackened by negative guides or forces, resulting in a soul condition that was extremely difficult or impossible to revert back to its original state. Sincerely. Carl and Family  

Hi Carl and Family,

Some further thoughts and comments...

According to my understanding it is not true that the soul can be tainted in any way. The soul which is involved within the human being is the "direct representative" of the Highest, an individualized portion of God and as such is eternally pure, perfect, immortal, and fully irrevocably aware of its Divine Nature. It is just that "people" are generally not conscious of their soul which is above, beyond, and yet at the same time within and supporting the play of life in the Ignorance of physical existence while other lower parts of the being temporarily dominate - and that is where people can get into trouble. That is why any practice or attempt to increase awareness of the soul's reality in the life, which might be a good definition of spirituality - is important.

In some popularly held beliefs it is "the soul" that is seen as corruptible but this is not really possible. These beliefs seem to refer to the triple lower nature - the mind, body, lower emotions of the "personality" of human beings, which at some point in the development can be mistaken for the soul, particularly in a dualist conception where an unbridgeable division is seen to exist between Divinity and the physical world, including human life.

Physical life is itself rooted in a condition of Cosmic Ignorance or Nescience perhaps contributing greatly to origin of the dualist conception. Perhaps also related, this Cosmic Ignorance in which beings are not intrinsically aware of their innate Divinity is sometimes speciously referred to as "original sin".

This Cosmic Ignorance of physical plane existence is really just an aspect of Divinity in the process of evolution and not a separation from it. It is the soul which is the individual seed of the Divinity's own growth, self-discovery, realization within the physical plane being, and becoming.

Unless and until this lower nature which is temptable, corruptible and innately veiled from Truth is illumined and transformed by the gradual evolution of the soul's light within the lower nature, it is possible for the being to enter into further and/or prolonged darkness, but rest assured - this is not the soul's doing, nor is the soul corrupted by this process.

- u

IMAGINARY DIALOGUE WITH A GUIDE:

I find myself in an inky void. It is peaceful.  I mentally try to summon a guide.  A presence soon responds, but it is hard to know how long it took because time seems to have a different flow over "there," if it still exists at all.  When my guide arrives, I mentally ask if I can pose a few questions.  My request is granted.  I ask if it is OK to be a man-for-others in the astral realm.  Guide: "What do you mean?"  Don: "Can I ask questions in behalf of others who would like to explore in this way, but cannot for various reasons."  Guide: "Fire away."  Don:  "Is it possible to explore and establish new protoculs for retrievals?  Can I be directed to trapped spirits whose identity can be determined and checked by obituaries or some other means?"   Guide: "Your perceptual skills may not be adequate to gain such clarity."  Don: "I just asked if this goal is worth pursuing."  Guide: "If you want to do retrievals, you just have to trust that your guides are directing you to the right cases for your current level of development."  Don: "OK, but why can't that ever include information that might lead to obituaries (e. g. name, date and place of death)?" I receive a rote, but it takes a while to unravel it.  When I succeed, I realize that the guide has informed me: "The cases we select are based on how prepared spirits are for retrieval.  Spirits are located in planes according to like attracts like and their energetic-make-up must be adjusted to be compatible to the higher plane to which  they are being retrieved.  This takes planning and several preparatory visits to the retrievees.  Retrievees must be selected through this process, not to satisfy your need for proof."  Don: "But I just asked you if I can function over here as a man-for-others and you said, 'yes.'  I'm not asking that every case lead to an obituary, just some cases."  Guide: "No can do!"  Don: "You're just saying that because you are merely a figment of my imagination, aren't you?"  Guide: "Well, I am a part of your I-There."  Don: "Ah, just the astral jargon I might expect.  I now realize that this is just a lucid dream about astral exploration.  My unconscious is establishing roadblocks to verification because it doesn't want the realism of this state to be discredited.  It demands that I respect the illusion."  Guide: "Bingo!  But you are drawing a false distinction between astral states and lucid dreams.  Both states are variations of the same astral conditions."  Don: "That's a bogus distinction and I have more constructive things to do with this state than perceive your double-talk.  I think I'll create a romantic fantasy instead."  Guide: "OK, have it your own way. Enjoy!  Hope to dialogue with you again."  Don: "Duh!"

I have reposted this from my earlier thread.  Replies to my post here have ducked two key issues: (1) the obvious possibility that guides and retrievees can often (not always) provide clear-cut verifications; (2) The obvious fact that loving guides would press through the problems and dangers in retrievals simply because so few incarnate humans are available and open to their possible role in helping with retrievals.  I will elaborate on (2) later.

Don

Hi Don,

I have never had the pleasure of meeting my guides, but I'm not sure the imagination method can be employed with them for the purpose of verifications.

My understanding of guides is that they provide their help via circumstance and synchronicity - if we are able to recognize it while incarnate.  Seldom is there conversation, as if that were part of the communicative restrictions.  I could be wrong about this.....

With regard to speaking with a guide about getting verifiable information, I understand your post.  However, I wonder whether all of our specific information is available from stuck mental planes.  I know this sounds like a cop out, but I had a vivid dream while asleep last night, and I wonder what I would have said if quizzed on my address, date of birth etc. in the dream.  I'm not sure that I would have come up with even half of the requested information, though i feel like I might have.  That is the weird thing about altered mental states.  They are self consistent, but sometimes not logical.  

Matthew

Matthew,

I am thinking of Robert Monroe's detailed conversations with his astral guides and Robert Bruce's OBE conversations with loved ones returning to visit (retrieve?) their newly arrived relatives in a spirit hospital in lower planes.  Interestingly, visiting parents can recall no significant details about their home astral planes, but their memories of their newly arrived children seem clear enough to assist in their retrieval.  But how can discarnate parents retrieve loved ones and bring them to astral home planes that they can only vaguely recall?  Sigh!  

Swedenborg, among other astral adepts, implies but does not articulate the following scenario.  Earth memories become dormant in the higher planes to help souls focus on their new educational process.  But periodically God restores parts of their earth memories for constructive self-reflection.  During these phases of past life recall, contact with earthly loved ones might be possible.  It's as if astral memory is temporarily suppressed to make room for dormant earth memories.  Perhaps the parents bring their dead children to more highly evolved helpers who can descend to lower planes wiithout memory impairment.  

When I have time, I'll peruse all the astral conversations with guides reported in this site's retrieval section to determine whether they provide guidelines to subjects that can and cannot be brought up by astral explorers.

In my lucid dreams, I feel bright and alert, but upon awakening, I realize how stupid my dream self really is.  For example, when I was dining at an astral MIT with my old friend Ralph, I felt the need to confirm that it really was Ralph.  I still haven't been able to verify his death!  In the dream, I poked Ralph's chest sharply with my finger and encountered a hard, fleshly chest!  He smiled as I concluded that this was the real Ralph.  Of course, my poke merely confirms the possibility of touch sensations in the dream state.  I was too dumb in my dream to ask Ralph telling questions that I could verify.  Oddly, a nearby outdoor cafe has virtually the same name as a real outdoor cafe at MIT!  I was unaware of any such cafe there! If retrieval guides can do no better, I'd conclude that they are merely lucid dream constructs.

Don