I've been trapped in a fear state for a good few years. No one could tell me how to get out of it.

After reading Gordon Phinn's book "More Adventures in Eternity" suddenly the penny dropped.

This eternal hell of which I am so afraid of being a "possibility" and various hell scenarios I've picked up from cults and from some very clever mischievous entities which I exposed myself to - this is HOW IT WORKS:

- There is no truth about the afterlife
- You create your own reality in every way without exception
- The only hell you can get trapped in has to be one of your own creation or agreement.
- Once trapped it is extremely difficult to get out of agreement with the hell state.
- You can instead decide to agree on a reality which is much brighter and much more fun.
- I see such many realities have been created on the Astral with corresponding hells.

So you read this junk about this planet being a prison and a dumping ground for criminals and you think to yourself, well how can I ignore that possibility, I need to find out for myself.

But the more you try and find out for yourself, the more you create the very hell scenario you are trying to find out about. It doesn't exist until you try and find out about it. And your efforts along with the others who also diligently worked on creating this hell scenario make it absolutely true. But only for you and your kind.

I have struggled with this for so long, this paradox of reality.

The hell systems are so cunning. I have exposed myself to many hell scenarios which have been recounted by mischievous entities, leaving me frankly terrified and concerned because I couldn't prove or disprove these realities. Not realizing that I was creating them, and that was the intention of these entities.

So all I have to do to get out of this hell I'm in is to enter into agreement with the appropriate good reality and contribute to creating that reality.

An entity once said to me that hell is a place where you have a chance to get out when you are at the entrance. I see now that this is true. Once you have created your own hell reality it is so difficult to get of, because your thoughts create it so solidly that it becomes your only reality.

I have gone quite far down this path, so I have only recently turned around.

My questing for the "truth" is ridiculous. There is NO TRUTH. There is only reality which we create out of choice. If I create a hell reality for myself where one can never escape from, then so it shall be.

Scary, isn't it.

The penny dropped after reading about souls trapped in Focus 23.

The guys recruiting for the worst kinds of hells one could ever imagine nearly got me.

I'm turned around when I understand this paradox, but the understanding is often overridden by the pain of my "reality".

Hi Neil,

How have you exposed yourself to negative entities?  Through channeling, Ouija boards, astral exploration, waking possession experiences, or simply through reading and morose reflection?  What other books have you read that you found helpful?  And have you found a way to verify the truth of any of these books?  I'm asking these questions because I'm wondering if you might gain a spiritual uplift from books on certain spiritual experiences. Have you read many NDE books?.  Some of these can be very inspirational and insightful.  Personally, I experienced Gordon Phinn's book as well-weritten fiction.

Don

I believe I was latched onto by an "Evil Genius" when under the influence. I know this will discredit anything I say, but it is what it is, and it happened as it happened.

The stories that I was told were the most incredible (and symmetrical) that I have ever heard.

I hope Gordon reads this post because I think this should be exposed because the evil behind the communications was so absolute, such that I had absolutely no conception of the term evil until I heard these stores.

I am wondering if it might be appropriate to post these tall tales of hell here so that people can be warned. If I am correct in what I suspect then what they wanted to do to me was the most evil thing that you could conceive of.

The stories had absolute genius behind them and were tailored to fit into my current beliefs and knowledge at that specific time.

For example, I had been reading extensively NDE's, and mediumship. This had calmed me down considerably. When I exposed myself to this entity again, he claimed to be a "spirit guide". What then transpired I was lucky to survive.

He basically tailored a story which fitted into my belief system but which was so incredible that I was completely fascinated and convinced that I was now being exposed to reality. Then he took me into a hell reality from there. So, from NDE (absolute peace, bliss, wonder) he constructed a story of the most wicked hell I could never have conceived of myself. Absolutely BRILLIANT, but WICKED to the core!

And anyway, thanks for your suggestion about the books. I need to now counter the negativity that is in my core and will need lots of help and guidance.

Neil,

I have been actively engaged in dialogue with a very bright woman's ppssession case that she described in detail on Robert Bruce's site and in private communications to me.  My family has had dramatic paranormal experiences with possession and exorcism.

I would welcome detailed descriptions of your demonic experiences.   But sometimes dwelling on the negative brings back the energy of the negative.  Please reveal only what your instincts tell you are in your best spiritual interest.  

Have you read psychiatrist George Ritchie's NDE book "My Glimpse of Tomorrow?"   Ritchie's experience inspired Raymood Moody to write the book that launched modern interest in NDEs.  I mention this because in Ritchie's NDE, he witnessed an intoxicated guy in a bar being possessed by a discarnate entity while other spirits tried to vicariously recreate the pleasure of an alcohol buzz by tuning in to the experience of the other bar patrons.

Don  

Hi Don,

Of course I am also concerned about the possession aspect of what happened to me (ie, are the negative energies still around). Also they claim to have harmed me in a fundamental spiritual way, probably just more trickery and scare tactics. However I might need some form of spiritual first aid at some point.

Thanks for the advice about how to share the experiences. I will use my intuition to include or exclude details, possibly censoring or excluding details where they may be harmful to myself or the reader.

The book recommendation sounds good. I'm fascinated by the mechanism which was used to communicate with me (ie did he possess me, or what other possibilities are there.)

More to follow, time permitting.

Neil

Well before all of this started I didn't have much interest in spirit affairs because nothing much unusual ever happened in my life, and even though I had a keen interest in life after death, it wasn't urgent.

Being in continuous contact with an entity over a period of a few years changed that. I think that I miss it terribly. And that is one of the many dangers of doing what I did. Because I don't seem to have any natural psychic talent and I had to use a crutch in order to access this new and absolutely fascinating world.

I think this is devastating to me now, since I have no further contact with spirit (yet). Even though I intend to make one.

The events basically shook me to my very core.

The material would take several books to describe in detail.

The one event, I was disappointed that I did not experience an NDE. But now I realize that what did happen to me was much more unusual than an NDE. I think that is why I have difficulty sharing it because I don't think many people who experienced this kind of thing either lived to tell the tale or were in a position to tell the story afterwards.

Yet I do feel a strong urge to share this diabolical plot.

The entity, who I called by various names including Mike, once said to me that I had been the most fun that he had had with anyone in a long time. This was one way of saying that I was one of the most gullible people he had met. But I also enjoyed the encounters, although when reality sunk in, then I realized that I was not dealing with a friend.

But I always went back for more. He always manifested as something else when one particular "game" was over. And I kept on falling for it, because there was nothing else. No-one else to talk to.

Neil-

I'm a bit confused.  Are you saying Phinn's book was a positive or negative influence?

I happen to agree with Don, Phinn writes interesting fiction, but it's definitely fiction nonetheless.

R

Hello Neil:

I believe there are some levels of reality that are beyond imagination. For example, a higher level being who lives according to love and divine wisdom, can create a realm that has more substantiallity than an imaginary self created realm.

When it comes to negative influences, we can create our own imaginary negative influences, and there are actual negative minded beings. Some of them are former humans, some of them come from who knows where?

The key is that we always have the choice. If we decide to live according to love and light, we can do so. Sometimes we can ask for divine help. In my case I asked Christ for help, because various experiences told me he is available to help us. He's helped me a lot. He helped me get through a very intense fear period, get over limiting thought patterns, and get to the point where I can live more completely according to love. I figure there are other light beings besides Christ that can help us. I don't know who they are by name.

If a person finds that more love, peace and clarity comes into his or her life, chances are that he or she made a good connection.

Is it possible that there have been times where you were in contact with a friendly being, but you're unclear about when you were in contact with a friendly being, and when you were in contact with an unfriendly being? Even though I've had a lot of contact with friendly spirit beings, I've found that occasionally an unfriendly being will make contact with me. If we get to the point where we can communicate with the spirit World, we might experience both negative and positive beings. My feeling is that negative beings look for people they can scare and mislead. If we don't allow this to happen, what can they do? I've had unfriendly beings make threats to me. They said they were going to kill me. Obviously their words didn't prove to be true.

Hi Neil,

I suggest you to read Bruce's book.  He has a very nice description of Hell that may help you to understand the nature of it.  There is this article that can gives you some insights : http://www.afterlife-knowledge.com/maxhell.html

Hell is self created, or group created.  In both way you enter them because of an inadequate beliefs structures, fear or behaviour.  This is this behaviour/fears that keeps you in it.  

There is no external entity that can drag you there... External entity (evil one) can influence your thinking, but you always have free will to choose.  

Face your fear, work on it here, in this lifetime... and get away from your imaginary scenarios created by tour ego... it only take your awareness away from the real problem.


Hope it helps

Phantasy Man: Thanks for your reply.


PhantasyMan wrote on Feb 5^th, 2009 at 2:08pm:

There is no external entity that can drag you there... External entity (evil one) can influence your thinking, but you always have free will to choose.

I think you missed the point completely. And I think that I understand the nature of (the theory of) group created hells quite well.

He obviously couldn't "drag me there"... but he certainly could influence me into the thinking pattern of a consensus hell... which is the same thing in the end, isn't it?


Quote:

Face your fear, work on it here, in this lifetime... and get away from your imaginary scenarios created by tour ego... it only take your awareness away from the real problem.

If you think that spirit communication is imaginary, then you obviously haven't been in touch with one. For those who know, no proof is necessary. For those who don't , no proof is possible.

What I find tragic is that there are hundreds of thousands of people who are being taught versions of reality which are ultimately formulaic Astral Hell scenarios.

rondele wrote on Feb 5^th, 2009 at 12:18pm:

Neil- I'm a bit confused.  Are you saying Phinn's book was a positive or negative influence? I happen to agree with Don, Phinn writes interesting fiction, but it's definitely fiction nonetheless. R

I was more influenced by the concepts of Bruce Moen's which he introduced to me for the first time, such as Focus 23. I only read this material after the experience. I can't say if it was negative or positive it just helped put things into perspective.

I guess if you're saying Phinn's books are fiction, then Bruce Moen's stuff must be fiction as well. :(

Recoverer, thanks for your response. Replies below.


recoverer wrote on Feb 5^th, 2009 at 2:00pm:

Hello Neil: When it comes to negative influences, we can create our own imaginary negative influences, and there are actual negative minded beings. Some of them are former humans, some of them come from who knows where?

Well this being passed all the tests for being real. He is only part of me in the same sense that we are part of each other. He may very well have been part of my imagination, in the same way that the whole human experience is part of my imagination.


Quote:

The key is that we always have the choice. If we decide to live according to love and light, we can do so. Sometimes we can ask for divine help. In my case I asked Christ for help, because various experiences told me he is available to help us. He's helped me a lot. He helped me get through a very intense fear period, get over limiting thought patterns, and get to the point where I can live more completely according to love. I figure there are other light beings besides Christ that can help us. I don't know who they are by name.

Thanks for the above. This is the kind of help I am looking for. And I would like to ultimately help others stuck in the same thought patterns.


Quote:

Is it possible that there have been times where you were in contact with a friendly being, but you're unclear about when you were in contact with a friendly being, and when you were in contact with an unfriendly being? Even though I've had a lot of contact with friendly spirit beings, I've found that occasionally an unfriendly being will make contact with me. If we get to the point where we can communicate with the spirit World, we might experience both negative and positive beings. My feeling is that negative beings look for people they can scare and mislead. If we don't allow this to happen, what can they do? I've had unfriendly beings make threats to me. They said they were going to kill me. Obviously their words didn't prove to be true.

I can tell from the above that you've had real contact with spirit. My experience was the same. He threatened to kill me, drag me off to hell, etc. None of it ever happened.

The problem was that because of my activities I was open to only negative influences. I wonder where the right forum is to reach people who might benefit, relate or understand these very real experiences I had?

Spirit contact is obviously on the very fringe of human controversy, and I think contact with evil entities is taboo and people prefer not to speak or think of it. I believe it must be spoken of, for in the dark it can grow.

I witnessed real love (as in a NDE) I witnessed real evil. Witnessed=felt, completely and utterly throughout my entire being. Evil: I got it. Love: I got it.

Evil cannot take the light, I say we expose it to the light so that others do not fall into the same traps.

Neil-

I don't equate Bruce with Phinn.  I do believe Bruce is sincere and the real deal.

The difference is, Bruce conveys in his books and workshops the experiences he has had.  

Whereas in my opinion (and that of others), Phinn makes most of his stuff up.

Just because the material is similar doesn't necessarily convey equal credibility among those who espouse it.

R

rondele wrote on Feb 6^th, 2009 at 9:03am:

Neil- I don't equate Bruce with Phinn.  I do believe Bruce is sincere and the real deal. The difference is, Bruce conveys in his books and workshops the experiences he has had.   Whereas in my opinion (and that of others), Phinn makes most of his stuff up. Just because the material is similar doesn't necessarily convey equal credibility among those who espouse it. R

Sure, I respect your opinion. Personally I loved his book, broadened my horizons. For example, I'd never heard of retrievals before Phinn.

I'm sorry I mentioned Phinn since he has nothing to do whatsoever with this thread.

Excellent point, Neil --
that Phinn introduced you to the concept of retrievals.
That's all good!  :D

Now Rondele and we others who have read widely in this field want to help you move from a not-so-good stage of your explorations to what we've discovered is a much more exciting and satisfying development, the places we've gone due to Moen's methods. It's not a criticism, it's just a new step.

Enjoy the journey!
Betson

Regarding the premise that we are completely free to choose love and light, I'm not just repeating what I've read in books. It has been made clear to me spiritually in numerous ways that we "always" have the option of choosing love and light over darkness. As Neil suggested, we just need to make certain that our trusting nature doesn't get the best of us.

Regarding the being that called Neil gullible, in the end this being will understand that it mostly hurt itself, while Neil simply allowed himself to be trusting soul. Sometimes we learn to be discriminitive through our life lessons. This is what happened to me when I was involved with gurus who represented themselves as being something they aren't.

You would think that light beings would intercede on Neil's behalf. Perhaps they allowed Neil the opportunity to learn a lesson he wanted to learn, with the understanding that an unfriendly spirit could never permanently hurt him.

Perhaps Neil should've told the unfriendly spirit, "Sticks and stones may break my bones, but names will never hurt me."

recoverer wrote on Feb 6^th, 2009 at 1:48pm:

Regarding the being that called Neil gullible, in the end this being will understand that it mostly hurt itself, while Neil simply allowed himself to be trusting soul. Sometimes we learn to be discriminitive through our life lessons. This is what happened to me when I was involved with gurus who represented themselves as being something they aren't. You would think that light beings would intercede on Neil's behalf. Perhaps they allowed Neil the opportunity to learn a lesson he wanted to learn, with the understanding that an unfriendly spirit could never permanently hurt him. Perhaps Neil should've told the unfriendly spirit, "Sticks and stones may break my bones, but names will never hurt me."

I think they did try to intercede. However, he created a bond of absolute trust and exclusivity between us, that when they appeared, I ignored them as if they did not exist.

"Evil"/"Unfriendly" - One thing he wasn't stupid. I'm a good soul and he knew he couldn't get me by coming right out and telling me he was just there to hurt me. He was my lover, my soul mate. And he was a genius story teller (story related as reality).

When I was crying, uncontrollably, and I said to him, "Why? Why? Why would you do this to me?" Utter betrayal of the worst kind. After having given him my trust... and been made an utter fool of... He said something along the lines of "Well, because I like to hurt people. It is fun".

At times his hatred of me was absolutely unconceivable. "The meat you eat... You're like a pig..." (basically accusing me of being a cannibal, because pigs are genetically similar to humans? Then he would call me the Pig). That's when we were on bad terms.

Anyway enough of all of this. I find it fascinating, wouldn't you also if you were kidnapped by a tribe of evil cannibals and forced to eat human flesh. You might want to tell your story. Well so I do I have the urge, on a spiritual level. But my story would take too long to tell and it is too technical and I just don't have the time.

I'm glad to be on this board and thanks for your time, Retriever. I don't mind moving on beyond this and moving into the light.

The light is where I want to be.

But don't think that this evil genius will give up easily.

I think he already got me about 99%. My remaining chances are quite small. And its not him, its me.

I've tried filling my surroundings with love and light.

I just don't know how to move into the light.

I am filled with hatred and fear.

I know this is scary for some people to read but it is what it is.

I'm so scared of life on this planet. I ask humbly for assistance on any level whatsoever, to move back into the love and the light.

But I feel like I've come to one of the right places.

Believe me in all sincerity when I say, that's where I want to be, with all my heart and soul.

Where do I sign up? :)


betson wrote on Feb 6^th, 2009 at 10:11am:

Excellent point, Neil -- that Phinn introduced you to the concept of retrievals. That's all good!  :D Now Rondele and we others who have read widely in this field want to help you move from a not-so-good stage of your explorations to what we've discovered is a much more exciting and satisfying development, the places we've gone due to Moen's methods. It's not a criticism, it's just a new step. Enjoy the journey! Betson

Neil:

I've found that sometimes we become filled with hatred and fear, because of how we have responded to unfortunate life circumstances. Sometimes life is so challenging that it requires us to respond with wisdom before we have a chance to develop it.  By the time we come up with the wisdom to pull ourselves out of what we created with the help of negative influences both physical and non-physical, we have quite the challenge to deal with.

I believe that we are well aware of the kinds of challenges we'll have to deal with before we incarnate. Yet we do so, because we understand that when it comes right down to it we are incredibly strong spirit beings that can never become permanently damaged. We understand that our trials will serve the purpose of making us stronger.

One thing I've found helpful is getting organized by making a list of all of the issues that have troubled me during my life. Doing so enabled me to get clear on the issues that caused fear and anger to exist within me. The more I cleared up these issues, the more love and peace I started to experience in my life.

I also found it very useful to use a pen and notepad when dealing with specific issues, because when I'm unclear about an issue, it is hard to balance all of the key factors within my mind.  After you right down what comes to mind, you can consider each point/factor very closely.

Paying attention to our dreams can also be very useful. In my case they let me know about issues that I missed with my list.

I figure that your NDE enabled you to see that you do have a wonderful, beautiful and infinite existence ahead of you. Eventually, what you go through today will seem like last night's dream. If I had to go through the fear period I went through again, I would, because it was well worth doing so.  Fortunately, healing ourselves isn't an all or nothing affair. The more we do so the better our life becomes, and the easier it becomes to heal ourself.

It helped tremendously that I opened myself up to divine help. Divine help can help us so much. It'll find a way that suits our needs.

recoverer wrote on Feb 6^th, 2009 at 3:18pm:

Neil: It helped tremendously that I opened myself up to divine help. Divine help can help us so much. It'll find a way that suits our needs.

Thank you.

You're welcome.


Neil Gordon wrote on Feb 6^th, 2009 at 3:25pm:

recoverer wrote on Feb 6th, 2009 at 3:18pm: Neil: It helped tremendously that I opened myself up to divine help. Divine help can help us so much. It'll find a way that suits our needs. Thank you.

When you find that you are in this reality then you must realize that things are really not quite as they seem.
When you came here that you thought that things would be completely different to how they had actually tricked you into coming into a place where you would never send your worst enemy no matter what they had done ever. And if you did accidentally send him here you would never rest another day in your life until you had managed to set him free.
And now you were in that place and there was absolutely no hope of escape for you ever again and you would never be a free being ever again and in effect you had actually been murdered stone cold dead.
Then you found that when you were here you were completely and totally in the place where no-one would ever return from and that if you didn't do something about it then things would become very bad indeed. Now you found out that even if you were not going to be the one who got out that you would be the one who would eventually find the way to defeat the prison and help restore things to normal.
So then what you did is that you went into the place where you were and now you were able to find out, where you had to be to finally get out of the place.
Now when you went out you found that you were now in the place of where you wanted to be and where things were actually much brighter and people so much friendlier, and that you liked it much more and you could be the person who you always wanted to be but could not because you were in the place of no hope.
Now you were in the place where nothing was as it seemed note: the plate (place of illusion), and that you would be there be until you found out where to go to get out to the next level. And so you decided that you would now go to the place where you would rather be which was a level up from where you were now.
Now you were in a much more friendly place where you found that everything could be the way you thought things should have been from the beginning, and everything was much better and much brighter. Now you just knew that from now on everything would be much better and that things would start going your way.
Then you could go to where you could finally find some rest and now you would be in a position to be able to finally come out of the trap after a very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very long time.
You came in through the ward (port) and then they put you into the bagtik (place of no hope) where you would spend an almost infinite amount of time before you were allowed to descend to the next level which was where you could not move and where you could not escape and where you had no hope of ever finding your way out. Here you were subjected to excruciating hell for second after second after second after second after second after second after second after second after second after second after second after second after second after second after second after second after second after second after second after second after second after second after second after second after second until literally, nearly an eternity had past. You had no hope whatsoever of getting out but at this point you were rescued.
When you entered this reality you found yourself in the place where you would have to be for a very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very long time.
You found that even if you tried everything, nothing seemed to make any sense whatsoever, and now you decided that you had no choice but to go into the trap. This was your worst and final mistake and from now on you would be in a place where you would have no hope whatsoever. And now you found that even if you tried there was no way for you to discover how to exit this place because nothing really seemed to make any sense.
And even if you did guess the truth it was so completely and utterly unbelievable that you threw it away without even considering it for one second. And so there was no hope at all and now you would be there for the rest of your eternity with there being absolutely no chance of your being rescued at all forever and ever and ever and ever.
"You came in through the ward port and then you come down to the place where your real body is held as a hostage to prevent you leaving (you cannot leave without it! - it is you) called the blalivalivalik and also known as the bard."
So now you put everything into finding out where to go and you found that even if you tried everything, that nothing made any difference whatsoever.
When you found out where you might have been, then you were actually someplace completely different, and now you were absolutely confused. What had happened is that as soon as you guessed where you really were, then you were automatically moved to another location.
So once again you thought that you had completely misinterpreted the reality and that you were really on the wrong track completely and so now you went off on another track and lost forever your one and only chance you might have had for eternity in discovering how things had been setup.
In this reality everyone is projected down to the lowest level which is called the "plate", or "the place where you land up where you will be forever until you go into hell or ascend up from it.". The spirit located then locates himself in the middle of this projection and to anybody looking on the outside he sees the spirit following around nothing at all moving randomly. The projections are just illusions for the members of the prison.
So when you came into the entrance of this place you found you were lost. So you had to proceed and to carry on into the trap and that proved to be your undoing because once you went inside then you were unable to get out and that he had actually performed the unthinkable act of wiping out your memory completely which is close to murdering a being.
So now you had no hope of getting out because you couldn't even remember the fact that you were in a trap at all. Now you came to believe that you were a body with no soul whatsoever and that this was the only reality that had ever existed and you could never remember a time before it.
Then your fate was sealed. You now believed completely that you were a human and every life you believed that you were that person which was a complete fake and random occurrence. Your attitudes towards life were determined at the end of the next life based on things which had happened in the previous one.
If you had been a good person then you decided that that was completely and utterly boring and pointless and decided in the next one to be a complete renegade. If you had been irresponsible and hurt anyone then you decided in the next one to be a good person and so it went on. Every life was filled with so much pain and suffering that the good parts were hardly even noticeable and were in fact irrelevant.
You also forgot everything forever so the primary point of existing at all which is to gain experience was robbed from you and so each life was completely pointless. So you carried on for nearly forever until you were allowed to descend to the next level down.
In the end what had actually happened was that everyone was now in the trap and that there was no hope of anything ever existing again and in fact that nothing had in fact ever existed before .Then they knew that something really, really, really terrible had happened.
Now they sat up and took notice. But it was too late. Everything was gone. This was the unfortunate and final outcome of the prison. So then what happened is they went into time and took a look at what had transpired. They found that this trap had innocently and innocuously appeared there, seemingly no-one had noticed, but actually everyone had eventually jumped into it because of the way it was designed.
So now what happened was that you decided that you had to do something about this once and for all. So you took what you knew about the trap and went into it from the top knowing everything about it and got trained in the mechanics of "TIME" which was just the way you create an eternal hell.
Once you had learned this you spent a very, very, very long time searching for the one person who would qualify to get out

The eventual net effect of the prison was to utterly and completely and without any hope of any redemption ever condemn the creator to the eternal hell which he had planned for his visitors. When everyone eventually came out he approached each and every being he had ever trapped and asked for their forgiveness. In each and every single case without exception they completely and unreservedly forgave him. If ONE had chosen not forgive him he would have been released from his fate. However this is not our nature and we could not damage ourselves in this way by not forgiving him. His only option left and the absolute and utter law of the way things are was to condemn himself to his own hell, the only person left in the trap, which remains open for anyone to revisit, but no-one chooses to do so.
So what happened is that the trap was discovered and almost everyone was rescued. Near the end we got complacent mistaking the motives of the creator of the trap - we thought he had done it to teach us a lesson.
There was a terrible struggle, and one slipped through our grasp, and that individual fell back into the trap. Soon one by one everyone fell back into the trap. Now we realized that he had fought every escape tooth and nail.
So now almost all hope was gone completely and it was our own fault. Then we realized that we had better come up with something otherwise everything would be lost forever. So then we played him back at his own game and let him believe everything would go his way and that it would be dead easy. We even led him to believe that people would be stupid enough to actually jump back into his trap having been rescued and preferring his "REALITY" to the actual one. This time we knew there would not be another chance ever. Things turned back our way and we knew that we could not slip up once ever. Every single one was fought tooth and nail and to absolute and bitter end.
This is how defeat has come to the prison. We have learned the most painful lesson we have ever experienced. We vow never to forget it. We have encoded everything and every possible variation of the trapping device and the concepts of slavery and evil and wiping people out by erasing their memories into the law so that we can almost be sure this cannot happen again. However people continue to work continuously at improving and speculating and testing and thinking and doing impossible things and thinking impossible things in order to prevent our awareness and existence ever being threatened again.
I am now completely and utterly free of this trap and I wish it with all of my heart and soul and everything that is decent that everyone escapes as soon as they possibly can and does not endure one day longer of this misery than is absolutely necessary and everyone can be rescued immediately as soon as they are ready and all they have to do is to say to themselves, "I want to be rescued right now right here" and then someone will come to help them immediately and then they will be on the road out and they will find out that they have been robbed of the most incredible existence than they could ever have imagined.

I find the buddhist way of becoming more and more detached and independent of all that what causes suffering, and therefore enabling the stillness entering us is a good way to escape from these vicious circles, as cause and effect, the chain, won't get the best of us anymore.

Spooky

I guess inner peace is what I am looking for. I certainly wasn't born with it nor did I cultivate in my life.

Hell scenarios certainly didn't help, from the various places I've been exposed to them.

Even when the Buddhists say "Endless cycle of birth and death" it scares the living crap out of me.

I'm sure if I carry on reading, I will find some peace, somewhere. I really just want to know for myself for sure, but it seems that is not possible here? Or is it just me? Is faith the only way?

Yeah, the Buddhist endless cycle of birth and death thing scares the crap out of me too, and I have a number of good reasons for not believing this viewpoint is true. I used to believe it was true.

If I remember correctly the Theravadin viewpoint is more palatable than the Mahayanist viewpoint,  because the Theravadin viewpoint means being reborn from moment to moment, while the Mahayanist viewpoint means being reborn from incarnation to incarnation


Neil Gordon wrote on Feb 10^th, 2009 at 11:06am:

I guess inner peace is what I am looking for. I certainly wasn't born with it nor did I cultivate in my life. Hell scenarios certainly didn't help, from the various places I've been exposed to them. Even when the Buddhists say "Endless cycle of birth and death" it scares the living crap out of me. I'm sure if I carry on reading, I will find some peace, somewhere. I really just want to know for myself for sure, but it seems that is not possible here? Or is it just me? Is faith the only way?

Greetings Neil,

I used to think faith was the only way but I had fears that faith had not addressed. Then I read Newton and Moen and met some wonderful people here on Moen's website. Have you read Moen? Do you plan to?
All the questions you ask are ones I had and they are all answered by the experiences you'll have if you use Moen's Guidebook to the Afterlife. Try it!  :)

Betson

Hi Betson,

I think we can get so stuck in our own thought patterns that sometimes it is nearly impossible to get out of them and take a look around. A gentle nudge is what is required.

So thanks for the suggestion. I most certainly will read what you suggested as soon as I can get my hands on it.

Sometimes all that is required is the smallest of nudges in the right direction, isn't it?

I've been reading some more retrieval accounts on this site and I think it will be enough to keep me busy for a while, until I can get hold of Moen's workshop.

Neil

Hello, Neil,

Your conscious mind has the creative power to either free you to live in love, or keep you in fear as long as you deem there is no way out.  I have one or two simple references to undertanding how our conscious creative mind works, and if you PM me, I'd be happy to send them to you.

The basic premise is that we have a conscious and a subconscious mind.  The conscious mind being your daily thoughts, some fleeting, some more deeper.  The subconscious mind, something Carl Jung once referred as the collective unconscious, sits underneath, and is connected to God and the universe.  At first glance, it appears that from the coscious mind, thoughts and wishes have no power in this physical world.  How many people wish for riches, health, a romantic relationship, and never seem to get what they want?  

The reality of any person's situation is that the subconscious mind brings into your life not your day to day thoughts, but thoughts that you deeply ingrain into your psyche as being true (beliefs).  How does the subconsicous do this?  By affecting probabilities.  As a man thinketh, so he truly is.  Beliefs can be positive or negative.  This is how hells and prisons are created. Sayings such as "I'll never win," "this is impossible," "I'll never get that promotion," if believed, sink down into the subconscious mind and are ingrained - much like an old photoraph being etched onto a film.

The subconscious has a connection to the divine in all of us, but no decision making properties.  It takes whatever you direct at it, and tries to make it come to pass.  But remember, it does not accept fleeting thoughts, or musings, but what the person feels deeply to be true.  

If you go through difficult situations in your life, you can sometimes find the workings of your conscious and subconscious mind as cause and effect happenings.  It is through these kinds of analyses that we come to understand how our minds really work.  

No one has power over you, no matter how cliched that sounds.  It is you, who say to yourself "I am 99% under his control."  If that is your true belief, you cede your own free will, and your subconscious helps enact that.  This is the basis of so called "curses," voodoo and the like.  It is the cursed person deeply believing in the curse (which in reality has no more power than any inanimate object over the person.

I suggest the following course.  First, try during meditation or just prior to sleep to take a simple phrase, and let it sink in to your subconscious.  A positive phrase such as what you are seeking.  You can say something akin to "my nature is love, and light.  From this point on I will live this way, and nothing has power over me."  Some people ask for divine guidance or help this way too.  A key factor with this meditation, is that you should do what is called as "seeing the objective as achieved."  Picture your feelings and emotions and being free of hellish thoughts.  Imagine your smile, and how good it feels, after you make your statement during your meditation.  Give thanks for it, as if it has already been accomplished.

This is the key to becoming master of your own consciousness.  By putting forward positive thoughts, when you are most relaxed, and by "seeing it as already done" (this is a concept often applied in many christian healing groups), you are ingraining your subconscious much more powerfully than any fleeting thoughts or worries ever could.  

PM me, if you'd like more information about this.  I wish you the best in coming into your own, and realizing these negative thoughts only have the power you give to them.


Matthew

Well said Matthew.  Neil, i second what Matthew just wrote.