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This is an essay I wrote long ago trying to reconcile evil with ta God of purity , love  and goodness.

All This is my own peculation and any views would be most appreciated


Origin of Evil.

Here are my conclusions on the origin of EVIL:

ALAN MCDOUGALL
..

I cannot comprehend the view that a perfect, good; loving god of pure light could ever conceive the concept of evil in his totally pure and holy mind.

Evil is totally opposite to gods absolute goodness, completely alien to his innate intrinsic nature and essence. All evil is a monstrous abomination to God. God is perfect and would, therefore, not permit the concept of evil to originate or exist in his perfect holy mind or in his presence of pure light.

How then could god create a being  with the "potential" for the utter evil that we see all around us on planet earth and in the universe? (Lucifer, eve, Adam, some of mankind)? Lucifer was perfect when created! Adam was innocent!

How could a perfect being like Lucifer become corrupt? I like to use the analogy of the perfect motor car .a perfect motor car would simply last forever in its original perfect condition. Except less than one condition "outside destructive interference".

The very same result would be with a perfect being such as Lucifer! (Who told him he was beautiful? certainly not God!) God would never write into his book of existence the concept or possibility of a malignant thing such as evil.

Evil must, therefore, have originated outside of his perfect self and mind! What possible use could evil be to god?

-God is omnipotent (all-powerful), omnipresent (all - present) and omniscient (all - knowing) he is however not "everything" god is "light" and in him is no "darkness whatsoever!" ,

Therefore, "darkness" must be an external something separate from Himself.


I know from experience, that the source of EVIL and its origin is from some external eternal monster that lurks remote from god in the primeval darkness of the deep (Gen 1:1). I call this place the "void"(hell). I am convinced that the ‘(‘VOID’) is HELL by a terrifying personal experience during a near death episode.

I was shown an evil monster of almost infinite intelligence lurks in the deepest darkness of the void (hell), while there. It is this eternal monster that I believe tempted Lucifer, resulting in his downfall and his metamorphosis into Satan or the Devil.

This monster is the complete opposite to god and dwells in utmost darkness deep, and very remote from god. I know this is true as I was shown this Malignant Monstrous Beast by an intelligence I took for God, while in the Void (HELL).

I was told that it is God’s eternal enemy and the reason for evil and its origin and perpetuation. This thing might be almost as mighty as God is himself! (Light against darkness). It seemed to be some type of antigod? There is an Anti-Christ-why not an Anti-God, Maybe they are one and the same evil being?

If we do not accept my explanation, then one must go to the Bible and read Isaiah 45; 7 were GOD says" I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil: I the lord do all these things. This verse could be a very definite and clear indication of the origin of evil; namely evil originating from god himself and god having two natures.

Him being both good and evil. The scripture clearly states that GOD created Evil, like it or not.

On what basis do I justify the chapter before the previous one that went off my point a bit? It is justified on the basis of my own personal terrible confrontation with this evil monster that lurks deep in the "Void” or hell. (Three times during brought on by near death episodes). This "void" monster is worshiped by Satan and I am convinced is the ultimate source and origin of all evil.

Satan did not confront me during one of my near death experiences, but by something almost infinitely worse! Satan is the prince of darkness, not the king of Evil! This thing is god’s eternal enemy and has a diabolic almost infinite evil dark intelligence and power.

I experienced that God due to his innate perfection is forced to  (darkness) and remove it forever from his being.


I felt this judgment more as an emotional separation from God, with feelings of utter darkness, desolation, despair, and fear terror, horror and everlasting dark cold hopelessness, the Void. Where  totally depraved dark evil beings , have to eternally exist, somewhere far together, forever, separate and remote from god’s love and could never enter his light. (Darkness cannot penetrate the light!).

Because of their utter evil depravity and darkness, totally Evil and Depraved beings would never enter Gods light and would be forgotten by God in their own Evil Depraved Perversions forever in the Void” A terrible thought". When I was so very ill, I communicated with intelligence, who revealed these things to me? I got the impression that God would someday rescue persons of much lesser evil, who had some light (goodness) in them. From the lesser upper regions of the Void into His eternal blessed light. (Out of the eternal darkness).

Let me assure the reader that there is no love, joy peace or light in the Void. As some writers suggested in the June 6 2003 newsletter. (Only utmost hopeless desolation and everlasting despair.)

There is Good and Evil throughout the Universe. I know this from personal experience! The battle is from Eternal past but God will destroy the Beast of the Abysses,

Note carefully- God is not Oxymoron!
And
God does not have two natures!
God is love!
GOD IS GOOD

Alan

"God created evil".

I believe that's true. Perhaps the reason was so that we can see what the alternatives to 'good' are.

Without anything to compare it to (no context, comparison) 'good' is easy to take for granted. Kind of like the fish that lives in water, 'doesn't know what it doesn't know' (I love that phrase!) that there are non-water environments...

I believe life is not about how many bad things happen in our lives, but rather about how we face, deal and overcome adversity / challenges.

alchemist wrote on Dec 26^th, 2008 at 5:21pm:

"God created evil".

'We' are God so we did create the illusion of evil. ;)







Quote:

I believe life is not about how many bad things happen in our lives, but rather about how we face, deal and overcome adversity / challenges.

Free will = learning experience = why we are here.

I believe the idea of good and evil is for the most part looked at in the wrong context, and I must say I disagree with basically the entire essay.  

Many will say that God is responsible for all good things and the devil is responsible for all bad things, but IMO this is false.  Many hide behind this idea, for it relieves them of most personal responsibility for the events in their lives.. they find it easier to blame an outside source.  Many people are so disconnected from their inner reality and consumed in false belief that their lives indeed seem out of their own personal control.  We are not puppets in a cosmic play directed by God and Lucifer.  We create every aspect of our lives, from the inside out, regardless of our awareness of the fact.  

When we look at these "evil" acts in the world, what we are really seeing is the result of false beliefs, the lack of love, fear, the closing off of the connection to the inner self-the source of our being, and the fanatical approach to the actualization of one's ideals.  

A large problem is that our society is taught to believe that the human race is naturally evil, that we are "born with sin".  Most of our societies institutions are based on the premise that human nature is unreliable, untrustworthy.  There are also mass misrepresentations of the nature of good and the means of achieving ideals.  So we have people who believe they are naturally evil, who don't trust their own human nature, while simultaneously trying to attain goals and ideals which may seem unattainable through ordinary means due to a lack of self-trust and self-worth and other false belief, and therefore take fanatical action, and the ideals they seek to fulfill are seen to justify the means, whether or not the means are "good" or "evil".  War comes to mind as an example.  Most "evil" deeds are usually not done for "evil" purposes at all.

God/All That Is embraces all of its creations, and therefore all of our creations, whether they are "good" or "bad."  We encounter "evil" to the extent that we focus on it, just as we attract positivity into our lives the same way.  Personal experience has taught me this.  

Good and evil are not absolute.  They are a matter of perception.  They are dependent upon an individual's beliefs.  You may look at 9/11 and think, those terrorists are evil.  I imagine a large percentage of people hold this belief.  However, the true nature of the situation is not that these terrorists are naturally evil, but that the false beliefs they entertain distort their perception of reality to such a degree that their "evil" acts are seen as good, or at least are justifiable.  I am not saying that I condone destructive acts.  What I am saying is that there is much more to the situation than "it's the work of the devil."

Dude,
many thanks for encapsulating this argument so precisely and concisely.
I agree with you completely.
You Da Man!!  ;D :D

Happy new year, y'all.

David.

Greetings,

I find myself agreeing with you all and not in a namby-pamby way!

What I see as good and evil has everything to do with energy patterns in tune with the energy of our planet/cosmos (good), and energy not in tune (evil).

When we emit PUL (sorry if that seems over-used) we are radiating outward in a considerate but high intensity way. That is "good,'' in every sense of the word.
But radiating outward doesn't make it good. Over-bearing or violent outlashing is the energy of hatred and destruction, for example.

Pulling energy inward, absorbing energy, toward us isn't good either, as in taking what is not ours, that has been created by others' effort (10 commandments talk of this.)

(I suspect that PUL invites energy in in a subtler way, so that such Love has a willing  exchange of give-n-take energies. )

We give these energies different names (evil, good, etc) and act out various roles in our excanges of such energies.
So the names you have mentionned in this thread all fit my little scenario.  
Thank you for letting me test my ideas with your responses!

bets

Thanks Dave, I tried my best.

OOOBD,


Quote:

We are not puppets in a cosmic play directed by God and Lucifer.  We create every aspect of our lives, from the inside out, regardless of our awareness of the fact.

WE DO NOT CREATE EVERY ASPECTS OF OUR LIVES FROM THE INSIDE OUT REGARDLESS OF OUR AWARENESS OF THE FACT.

That statement is not well thought out and absolutely false Tell that to my beloved sister Thelma a soul of beauty grace and light, who is now dying of liver cancer?

My sister has lived a life of love charity and altruistic given all her life, I by comparison have not, during my life I have had to over come, hate,  unforgiving and a life that I was not proud of.

Based on your statement , it should be me that should have cancer explain this please

Or tell it ti the millions and millions dying off poverty disease and hunger.

Tell it to the victims of the holocaust.

"THAT IS A CRUEL STATEMENT."

Of course we are not puppets , if there were only good , then we would not have a choice that is why there is both good and evil, so that we can choose,

We are free to choose whether to love God or our fellow humans just as we are free to hate.

Think again??

"By the way OOBD I know how you feel about me and it is not loving?"

Alan

Alan

I did not intend for you to take my post personally, I was only expressing my beliefs about this topic.  

There could be several reasons why your sister manifested the cancer.  Now, this is only speculation, for I know nothing about her.  Often times psychological issues manifest as physical symptoms if left undealt with for long enough.  I have seen this happen many times to those around me, and even to myself.  Sometimes there is a blockage of energy, energy which is unexpressed in an individual, and that creative energy needs an outlet.  This energy will then manifest itself in another way, say as cancer, as a sign to warn the individual that there are deeper issues which need to be fixed.  

It is also possible to manifest an illness by concentrating on it, perhaps by living in fear of catching a disease and mentally obsessing over it, for example.  This has also happened to me.  For a short period of time I became worried about getting cancer.  After a few days of playing with this thought pattern, I began experiencing slight aches in the area I concentrated on.  I caught on to what was happening, lost the idea that I would get cancer and regained my trust in my natural state of health, and the symptoms totally disappeared.  

Cancer may also be manifested as an excuse to die and move on to the next level.  Some people are simply ready for the transition, whether they believe life has no meaning and cannot express themselves in any way due to false belief, or they have gained all they needed from this experience.

Of course there are also physical aspects to this problem, such as diet and genetics, but since the physical is manifested through the spiritual, these are basically all issues of a mental/spiritual nature anyway.

The idea is that we choose the early conditions of our lives for various reasons, and so those born in suffering countries have chosen this, again for their own personal reasons.  I am sure that the holocaust victims have by now realized that Hitler was not a truly evil man, but instead held false beliefs and had a distorted view of the world, and was trying to accomplish his goal of making a perfect world, which is certainly a noble cause, but his approach to the manifestation of this ideal was completely fanatical and the means did not justify the purpose.

OOBD,

I agree that in some cases what you state could be true, and I know that cancer feeds on fear..

But this does not apply to my sister of any of the other persons or factors I mentioned in my previous post.

As for that essay of mine it was written years ago trying to reconcile a omi-all good God with the existence of evil, I wrote it when researching this most vexing of subjects and came across the Zoroastrian religion what believed in two apposing forces in creation, a god of evil and a god of light, with the god of light just a little stronger and more powerful.

At the time it made some sense to me , as all my religious friend kept telling me God had everything absolutely in his control and of course if we look at the horrors of human history this is blatantly wrong

I have moved on since then , and believe evil is  just a choice made by humans and so just is goodness and love,

In my opinion (present opinion) God cannot be equated to man , God simply is "THAT WHICH IS THAT"

GOD IS THE INSCRUTABLE ABSOLUTE

Alan

Alan:

First of all, when it comes to what you wrote about Zorastianism, Zoroaster didn't teach people about an evil being. He taught that there is divine will, and the various things that get in the way of divine will. Zorastrian teachers who came along later added the evil being concept.

Regarding Lucifer, if you consider the manner from a historical perspective, a fallen angel named Lucifer never existed. Lucifer is a fallen king of Babylonia, a physical person, a king of Tyrus. A man named Jerome made some mistakes when he translated the name "Lucifer." Attached are some articles if you're interested.

http://www.israelofgod.org/SatanIs14Ez28.htm
The above article takes a while to make its point.

http://www.lds-mormon.com/lucifer.shtml





Regarding evil, I figure the creative aspect of our being is neutral. A part of life is learning to make use of our creative aspect of being in a wise and loving way.  It isn't a matter of God purposely creating evil, or some evil being such as satan being responsible. It is a matter of allowing the creative aspect of being to have enough freedom to be functional. Along the way, each of us gets to decide what kind of being we want to be. A being who lives according to love, or a being who lives according to whatever. Just as a loving parent allows a child to become the kind of person it wants to become, a loving God allows his children to become the kind of souls they want to become.  A lot of positive guidance is available in order to help them find their way. Apparently a few get lost for however long.

Here's another article about Lucifer.  I don't know if you'll be able to get the site to come up, so I posted the words.

Taunt of the King of Babylon (Isaiah 14:4b-21)
Is 14:4b “Look how the oppressor has met his end!
Hostility has ceased!
14:5The Lord has broken the club of the wicked,
the scepter of rulers.
14:6It furiously struck down nations
with unceasing blows.
It angrily ruled over nations,
oppressing them without restraint.
14:7The whole earth rests and is quiet;
they break into song.
14:8The evergreens also rejoice over your demise,
as do the cedars of Lebanon, singing,
‘Since you fell asleep,
no woodsman comes up to chop us down!’
14:9Sheol below is stirred up about you,
ready to meet you when you arrive.
It rouses the spirits of the dead for you,
all the former leaders of the earth;
it makes all the former kings of the nations
rise from their thrones.
14:10All of them respond to you, saying:
‘You’ve also become weak like us!
You’ve become just like us!
14:11Your splendor has been brought down to Sheol,
as well as the sound of your stringed instruments.
You lie on a bed of maggots,
with a blanket of worms over you.
14:12Look how you have fallen from the sky,
O shining one, son of the dawn!
You’ve been cut down to the ground,
O conqueror of the nations!
14:13You said to yourself,
“I will climb up to the sky.
Above the stars of El
I will set up my throne.
I will rule on the mountain of assembly
on the remote slopes of Zaphon.
14:14I will climb up to the tops of the clouds;
I will make myself like the Most High!”
14:15But you were brought down to Sheol,
to the remote slopes of the pit.
14:16Those who see you stare at you,
they look at you carefully, thinking:
“Is this the man who shook the earth,
the one who made kingdoms tremble?
14:17Is this the one who made the world like a desert,
who ruined its cities,
and refused to free his prisoners so they could return home?”’
14:18As for all the kings of the nations,
all of them lie down in splendor,
each in his own tomb.
14:19But you have been thrown out of your grave
like a shoot that is thrown away.
You lie among the slain,
among those who have been slashed by the sword,
among those headed for the stones of the pit,
as if you were a mangled corpse.
14:20You will not be buried with them,
because you destroyed your land
and killed your people.
The offspring of the wicked will never be mentioned again.
14:21Prepare to execute his sons for what their ancestors have done.
They must not rise up and take possession of the earth,
or fill the surface of the world with cities.”

This passage is an imaginative poem.  Its content is a taunt.   Just as the trees didn't literally "get down and party" when the king of Babylon died (14:, we shouldn't read the description of Sheol as a theological treatise on the afterlife.

The passage is clearly about the literal Babylon (14:4a, 22) and her human king (14:16).  As the epitome of evil, the language used to describe the arrogance of the king of Babylon here is used by Paul to describe an eschatological "man of lawlessness" in 2 Th 2:4 (cf. Isa 14:13-14).  But Paul is not interpeting this passage in Isaiah as referring to him, but rather using the language as a sort of cliche; at most, he is treating the king of Babylon as a type of the man of lawlessness.

Historically, it has been a common practice to spiritualize this entire passage to be about Satan rather than the human king of Babylon.  This misinterpretation is behind much popular mythology about Satan.  The reference in 14:11 to his string instruments (which in context would not refer to the king's personal instruments, but the instruments of the musicians at his court -- compare with David playing the harp at Saul's court) is behind the myth of Satan originally being the chief musician of heaven until he attempted to rebel and take over.  Whatever the actual details of Satan's fall from heaven, this passage is not about that.

The above scripture and commentary comes from this site.

http://www.jeff-jackson.com/new/religion/eschatology/Isaiah13-14.html

Recoverer,

Alan:


Quote:

First Zoroaster didn't teach people about an evil being. He taught that there is divine will, and the various things that get in the way of divine will. Zorastrian teachers who came along later added the evil being concept.st of all, when it comes to what you wrote about Zorastianism,

Yes maybe Zoroaster did not believe what i stated in my previous post, but that is a definite belief of one of the off shoots of the Zoroastrian religious just like the many different Christian sects

Respectfully Recoverer, I know the bible like the back of my hand and can quote huge parts of it without having to open the book.

In Ezekiel 28/29 there is the chosen cherub that was  perfect in all his ways, who walked on the fiery stones until evil was found in him. Many believe this is a reference to Satan of the Devil

But according to no less an authority than Jesus, The Devil was a liar from the beginning and there is no truth in him. So whoever this Devil is I must agree with you that it cannot be Lucifer of the Cherub of Ezekiel.

Oh!! while I think about this topic , Jesus once said to his followers "I saw the day that Satan fell like lightening"


That is why  created my hypothetical eternal enemy of God in my essay, which I no is wrong , but I gave it a bash

Alan

I think that much misery comes from ascribing a sense of comic justice to happenings in the universe that are due to either complex interactions in the physical world or random fluctuations of energy and probabilities.  Cancer, as awful a disease as it is, is not a divine punishment.  The notion that those who are healthy and live many years are being rewarded by a divine deity is based on a misunderstanding of factors involved in physical life.  

I also happen to be against ideas expressed on this forum that we have a tremendous amount of control over all of the specific aspects of what happens to use in the physical world.  A popular New Age dictum is that we choose our own circumstances down to the last detail, either before we are born, or while incarnate.  While the law of attraction in the physical world has been shown to apply in a general sense (that we attract toward us what our innermost thoughts are), it has been my experience that this works in terms of changing probabilities - not in terms of choosing specific circumstances (i.e. - a person's higher self choosing their specific disease such as cancer).  

In animal models, cancer is a multifactorial disease.  There are genetic  predispositions, carcinogens such as nitrites in foods or cancer causing chemicals in cigarettes and the envirnoment.  In these animal models, several "hits" need to be combined to result in the manifestation of cancer.  Can a person's fears, wants or desires factor in to this?  Of course, but the many interactions that ultimately lead to the illness are quite complex.

From my perspective there is a notion of good and evil in the spiritual and physical world, and these terms are truly defined on actions based on acting out of love or acting unlovingly.  Evil, when seen in this light is defined as the thought and action that leads away from love of other people and love of God.  It is a conscious choice that people make on a daily basis. Good and evil are thus real, but based on  free will and the choice of a conscious entity.

Moral relativism is a way of thinking which states that there is no good or evil, only experience (and that no experience is more good or evil than any other.  I do not believe in moral relativism (in fact, I loathe it).  It is the ultimate concession in being politically correct or "PC," as it factors love out of the equation.  

This is why it is so wrong to say that good and evil don't exist, that it is all a matter of perception.  The 9/11 terrorists, for example may have believed that they were acting toward their beliefs in Jihad (and for them a form of good).  The mistake in this thinking, however is that good, as defined above (acting from the love of others and of the creator) is diametrically oposed to killing people to inflict terror.  Thus we see that good and evil are NOT all a matter of your point of view.  You can't say "my religion tells me that by blowing you up I am acting lovingly" because on a deep level, even the terrorist knows this to be false.

There is a great intelligence to creation.  We see it, and feel it all around us.  Spiritual explorers come back from NDEs in awe of the notion of love and how it is expressed on so many levels.  Love or PUL  becomes the driving force of life, and thus sets up the underlying nature of good or evil.  To say terms such as "there is no good, no evil, only experience," is to miss out on the love of the universe.  

Matthew

I would say that ultimately there is balance and that balance can be perceived as good or evil depending on what perspective you observe it from. This world is dualistic so here we will perceive two opposites, but the universe is one thing and so somewhere in the great grand scheme of things those two must become one or one gives over to the other. Since evil is fear based it would seem to me that evil eventually gives up or stays in one place. I disagree that the terrorists know they are wrong. They've had plenty of crap dumped on them. I am not justifying their actions by any means but I'm sure they have no trouble justifying them. Forget the last 6000 years and just take a look at the history of the middle east and western relations since 1935. I know no one here needs a history lesson, I'm just saying the "good" and the "evil" have innocent blood on their hands and so it will be as long as there is good and evil...good will not win out here without some serious help, but maybe that's not the point. Maybe we're here to pick teams>a silly metaphor I know in a very enlightening conversation. Unlike the public school system one does not graduate this plane in one cycle at practically any cost.

These are all great posts thank you very much.
Yours,
Beau

I agree with Matthew said.
When I was being brought up Catholic, my God was a vengeful, fearful God. I had to watch each action, spoken word and thought for fear of punishment from God. I could never understand how my God would send innocent children to their death and then now allow them into heaven because they weren't baptized. Why would god punish me if I ate meat on Friday? Or send me to hell if I didn't attend church services every Saturday? I never like "confession". That always turned me off--- telling a man on the other side of a screen what I was truely sorry for and god would forgive me through him.  My god was not a loving god at all. I questioned my "religion" all the time. For that, I am a better person and spirit!  If my god can't accept all who will accept him --- then I don't want to go there. There must be some hope for anyone I may consider truely evil (IE: Gen. George Custer)  I can not answer for someone else's actions. I must answer for only my "self".  During my life I have been called Miss Know-it-all, Busy body, nosey, loud mouth, big mouth. You get my jest.  I always asked god why he gave me such a hyper personality.  I had no instructions from my parents on how to control my thoughts and words. I had no encouragement to meditate or seek out an elder who could give me wisdom without condemnation. My childhood was misrable and fearful. Each time I said anythig to anyone, I would become distressed because I just knew that someone somewhere would report it back to my parents or teachers and I would be punished. Then I would have to go to confession and tell a stranger that I was sorry (that I got hurt ) because of what I said and then I would get a punishment again from the priest in the form of contrision. Of course the persone I talked about would be completely devestated, so they had to make sure that I paid for what I said.

Where was my God then, to comfort me and tell me that there was a genteler way of handing the truth to someone? As I got older, I went through a divorce. My husband brought home a vineral disease to me and my parents blamed me, saying I must be doing something wrong in my marraige. ----Wow--- that really blew my mind!! I was angry at God for giving me the disease and also for the dislocated shoulder that my first husband also gave me. And this was the man that my parents (good Catholics) and the Church said I should stay with. Well, I divorced the church and my husband!  Heaven forbid, I won't be accepted into the Catholic Heaven now!!!

What is good and evil?  It is a state of mind in the thoughts of the beholder.--- cat

Good replies to the thread, Beau and Cat.

Beau, I respectfully disagree with you (and OOBDude in one of his posts).   Good and Evil are not just a matter of perspective, for this kind of reasoning negates the notion of PUL/Love as the driving force in the universe.  I noted this in my previous post.  If, as spiritual explorers have found, that PUL is our reason for being, this sets up the definition of Good and Evil, as either one who expresses love for others/God or one who takes the opposite course (evil) and acts/thinks unlovingly.  This is not to say that a person can't choose to act good in some instances and evil in others; we can, and for this reason, every person is quite complex.  I have found these definitions (of good and evil) to hold up under the scrutiny of both logic, and my own spiritual experience.  

This is why, I can't abide by moral relativism - the "everyone has their own point of view, so every point of view can be good or evil," idea just doesn't hold water.  I said that the terrorists blowing up innocent civilians know, deep down what they are doing is wrong.  Some may disagree with this.  It is not that they intellectually were not indoctrinated into this cult of death - they were.  Rationally, they could tell you about the 72 virgins awaiting them in heaven, and why they needed to strike terror into others as well as hurt, maim and kill.  But deep down, on a nonverbal level, their  soul knows that it is wrong - an abomination - an evil.  No amount of teaching by the Imams, or quoting of scripture will change what you and I know deep down inside to be loving or unloving.

That being said, the notion of predestination, and of cosmic justice mentioned in this thread is a different kettle of fish.  Bad things happen to good people.  Loving people may suffer horribly in a seemingly randomn manner.  Why?  Where is the justice, as Alan mentioned?

I don't think that God and the universe mete out justice in this manner.      As I noted in my last post, I think that many awful problems and issues in C1 (the physical plane) simply exist due to multiple factors, risks, and probabilities which interact in our lives.  While I am open to the idea that our higher selves may choose some of our circumstances in the physical world, I believe much is left up to these variables, because the risks or chance we agree to participate in C1 makes life worthwhile.  

My two cents,

Matthew

To me, to say that evil doesn't exist, is the same as saying love doesn't exist. If energy can be used to create definite things, why not evil? I'm not saying that half of the universe is light and the other half is evil. However, if a being, whether physical or non-physical, interacts with other beings with the intent of hurting these other beings, this is evil.

When it comes to the nature of an evil minded being, in a way, it doesn't mater if somebody learns by dealing with its actions, because the intent of the evil minded being isn't to help somebody learn. It wants to see other beings suffer and fail.

Even though I believe it is possible to some degree that we have life plans, I don't believe that some of us have life plans to become murderers, wife beaters, rapists, child molestors etc. If a source suggests such a thing, perhaps discernment is in order.  A theory doesn't become true simply because a source has an interesting way of presenting a theory.

If a racist kills another person because he believes he is doing the World a service by killing the person he judged to be expendable, there is "NOTHING" admirable about his doing so, regardless of what he believes.

I understand about us being the result of our environment. I've been well aware of this principle for about 29 years. Yet, I've received a couple of spirit messages which seemed to suggest that we always have a choice. This puzzles me because of the environmental influence factor. I'm allowing the possibility that the divine being that provided me with these messages, knows something that I don't know.

Here are my thoughts about Doc/Matthew's 911 terrorist statement. THOSE MEN WERE NOT MOTIVATED BY THEIR HIGHER SELVES WHEN THEY DID WHAT THEY DID! A HIGHER SELF WOULD NEVER MOTIVATE A PERSON TO DO SUCH A THING! So much for moral relativism.

P.S. I understand that Doc wasn't defending them.

Another P.S.

Living according to love doesn't mean that you can't know the difference between right and wrong. In fact, until one allows one's self to know the difference, how will one truly find out what love is about? One can be wise and discerning, without being judgmental.

Doc

I agree, although everyone has a different perception of what good and evil/right and wrong are, there is an underlying force from which these are based on, which is love and understanding.  It seems that the more you live according to your innerself/love, the more accurate your perception is of what is good and what is evil.  This doesn't change the fact that everyone will have different perceptions of these "forces", however, but I do agree that at a core level it is simply love and lack of love/fear.  

As for the terrorists, it is true, at a deeper level their higher selves know that what they are doing goes against love and is destructive.  However, discussing the ego consciousness, at the C1 level these terrorists probably believe they are just in their actions.  I remember a few years ago when I had a distorted view of right and wrong, I justified actions which were out of line with my innerself and love, and so my perspective of good and evil was skewed.  I saw things as "good" then which I now know are "evil."  Of course, my higher self was aware of this, but back then my physically focused self was not.  

Recoverer

If you live according to love then you must know the difference between right and wrong, simply because examples of people living according to fear/lack of love are so numerous, one would obviously see the difference, for he is choosing one over the other to begin with.  This is basically saying that one can live according to love and be unaware of it, unaware of choosing love over fear/lack of love.  Ish don't think so.  Love is the basis for "right" action.  

I just reread your statement... living according to love DOESNT mean that you CANT know the difference between right and wrong... in otherwords, you said living according to love DOES mean that you CAN know the difference between right and wrong.  I'm guessing you did not mean this.  If you did then I guess you can disregard my previous statement.

Dude:

Perhaps what I wrote isn't contradictory. There's an ebb and flow thing that goes on when it comes to spiritual growth. Sometimes we have to let go in order to experience love, sometimes we have to tune into love before we can let go.  I've found that release and opening often happen at the same time.  If we don't allow ourself to accurately discern that which is negative, how will we open up to the perspective that doing so leads too? Love is more than a good feeling. Love and wisdom work together.

I see.  I guess I misunderstood your initial statement.  I thought you were saying that it is possible for someone who lives according to love to not know the difference between right and wrong.  If they live according to love then they must know what is right and what is wrong, for they are choosing right.  I agree that the intellect plays a factor.

Matthew,


Quote:

In animal models, cancer is a multifactorial disease.  There are genetic  predispositions, carcinogens such as nitrites in foods or cancer causing chemicals in cigarettes and the envirnoment.  In these animal models, several "hits" need to be combined to result in the manifestation of cancer.  Can a person's fears, wants or desires factor in to this?  Of course, but the many interactions that ultimately lead to the illness are quite complex.

Thank you you put it down better than me.

Alan

Matthew, I may have given the wrong impression. I believe there is indeed Good and Evil afoot here in this dualistic world. My point was that the evil is fear based and fear is an invention that comes from a lack of trust of the source. PUL overcomes this fear. Of that I have no doubt. Trying to define good and evil as it applies to other cultures is a tedious topic. A belief system is a powerful thing. Do they know that what they do is based on fear based mentalities...I'm not sure they do. Fear can be a very deceptive thing to decipher. I'm not a moral relativist, but I do believe there is usually less than meets the eyes, ears, etc. Meaning that PUL can be distorted in its description to seem fear based...loving out of fear. That's not at all my opinion, I'm just saying that perspective is something that has to be accounted for here in our C1. Further down the line I'm not sure about. I don't know how we get to the perfect balance, but I don't think it's from labeling Good and Evil for anyone but ourselves. I can't make someone unafraid, but I can share my experiences and hope they strike a chord. Surely to me it seems there is true evil in this world, but I've never met anyone that I thought was truly evil thru and thru. I have met plenty of people, even myself, who operate from a fear mentality. They don't do it because they want to be horrible--they do what they do because they are afraid to do what's right--often because they believe that the right thing, because it is easier or more difficult is the wrong move. All I'm saying is I think it's a slippery slope. I don't want a mortal deciding what's good and evil for me--maybe I'm the fear based mentality. Great posts everyone.

Beau

All,

Our very survival depends on fear, it is intrinsically ingrained deep into our psyche.

If a psychopath put a gun to your head would you not tremble and ask for mercy?.

And I must reject anyone to telling me evil is just an illusion , this is silly nonsense. I live in a country that has the second highest murder and crime rate in the world.

I have looked into the evil eyes of a murderous person, who was frothing at the mouth and about to murder me if he could. Have you?.

Luckily this was long ago when I was still strong and young enough to defend myself.

If someone broke into your home, raped your wife and daughters before killing them "before your eyes" and then deliberately left you alive so that you could dwell on the horror for the rest of your life.

Would you just dismiss this as the work of basically good but mistaken persons.? No they are evil at that moment but maybe not unredeemably evil, there might still be light in their souls.

This happens all the time where I live it is easy to feel disconnected from evil if it has not effected of affected you directly


But I believe some souls have reached such a degree of depravity that they will spend eternity remote from the love of God.

And I would also like to stress God has given each of us the beautiful gift of life, but we are accountable to him for what we do with it.

We do not need religion to tell us what is good and what is evil, those are written deep into our psyche as intrinsic knowledge and we call that our conscience


Are these so-called human entities just poor mistaken souls?? Oh!! come on folks be real!!

My mother was Jewish and if I had lived in Germany at the time of Hitler and his death camps you would not be reading this post.

Existence is a duality life and death, good and evil , light and dark, love and hate, war and peace and so on and so on.

To state that existence is just life, good, light. love and peace is a great delusion and very far from the real unhappy truth.

Earth is not a paradise but a paradise lost.

Alan

Happy New Year Everyone!!! Woo Hoo! I agree with you, Alan, that Earth is a paradise lost. But I think it was lost because irrational fears gave over to "evil ways". The survival aspects of fear are not irrational at all and it is built into us, but judgment of others is a learned behavior that results when those fears get out of hand. When the ego becomes afraid that it won't have enough of something. Yes people do horrible things and it is very difficult to talk to someone who has been a victim of a terrible crime about fear being the root of all evil. I would only suggest a book called "Starseed Transmissions", by Ken Carey. It's not for everyone but over the years I've gotten something out of what he was saying. I'm not a disciple of his or anything but his treatise on irrational fear was pretty good. It's a great discussion and I thank everyone for their input.

Yours,
Beau

Beau,

There simply would be no fear if there were no reason to fear. Evil is the root not fear. "Beau you have it the wrong way around".

Without evil, good will prevail and the emotion of fear would not exist.

Happy new year to you and the forum , and may you all have a happy long healthy life full of joy peace and everlasting happiness

God Bless

Alan

Alan I think you have certainly hit on what, for me anyway, is what the whole discussion is really about. I respectfully disagree that evil is the root of all fear as I believe fear came before evil. Believe me, I wish I saw it your way, Alan, for it is a much easier position to defend. I have given it a lot of thought over the years and while I haven't changed my mind you have given me pause to rethink my position several times and I thank you for that. Logic in this instance does not bear great fruit for me, I guess. Thank you again for the thread as I have enjoyed it immensely.

If a psychopath put a gun to your head would you not tremble and ask for mercy?

Actually, no.  My experience is that at times like that, I get very very calm, and time seems to slow down, allowing me to make better decisions.  Now, the one time (thank the gods only one time!) that happened to me, calm and quiet seemed to be what calmed the nut with the gun.  If it was someone that would have felt threatened by my being too calm, I might have *faked* trembling and begging, but it would have been a reasoned decision.  Fear would have been dangerous.

Afterwards I about had a heart attack, but at the time, I wasn't even afraid except in a depersonalized, "Oh, this is probably a situation in which I should tread very very carefully" sort of way.  That has also been my experience with non-physical entities...back off and consider options, and show no fear is the better choice.

Cricket,
I'm like you (in most situations). My brain kicks in and tries to logically deduce what is the best course of action. Should I consider if someone else might be killed also. If so, I would gladly give up my life if it would save another being. Then I would think, "what does this person want--- really want?" I would also think that my family would be okay without me, I have insurance to cover the house when I die. I have some life insurance policies to help pay off any debts.  All this would go through my mind while being "held captive".
After the situation was over, I too would register what happened and what could happen.

No one knows what you as a human being will do in case of an emergency or negitive situation. If you happen to be dreadfully ill that day, you may be too lathargic to respond in any way other than placid. The same holds true with good vs. evil.  As I stated --- the persons whom I had been a busy body to thought of me as evil. I thougt of me as being helpful and good. Perhaps on a day where I wasn't Miss Goody Two Shoes, and I had a series of bad events take place, that same remark from Miss Busy Body may have been viscious and more destructive with an "I don't gave a damn if I hurt you" attitude.
It is a state of mind in the thoughts of the beholder. I may comprehend what society considers "evil" --- out of the ordinary action. When the Crusaders murdered millions of innocent people in the name of Christ, or tortured thousands during the Inquisition, you can't convience me that this action was all good in the name of God. Unless a person has very severe brain damage, that being knows the difference between Good and Evil and only s/he is accountable for her/his actions. An excellent example: I am carnivores. Does this bother me? Sometimes yes. Most of the time, because of the acception of the society I chose to be born into, I don't give it a second thought. Is it evil to slaughter a living animal? Most of us would say no--- because they give us necessary nurishment. We make excuses to exonerate our actions. It is generally accepted, so we accept it as good. I worked with a woman who was an animal rights activist. She was appalled that I was wearing leather shoes. I explained to her that I am allergic to man-made material and had to wear leather.  Was she "good" or was I "good"?? In my mind, I justified the use of an animal skin because of a medical condition. Evil is a state of mind in the thoughts of the beholder.

Thank you all for being my Afterlife Knowledge family. May you all have a prosperous,  fulfilling and happy 2009.
Carol Ann :-*

Alan says: <<If someone broke into your home, raped your wife and daughters before killing them "before your eyes" and then deliberately left you alive so that you could dwell on the horror for the rest of your life.  Would you just dismiss this as the work of basically good but mistaken persons.>>

Hi Alan and Happy New Year!

Well, those who follow Seth would say that the wife and daughters had a pre-incarnation agreement with the killer before any of them was born.  This agreement provided for the wife and daughters to volunteer as victims so that their necessary karma could be fulfilled.

The killer, of course, was merely helping them fulfill their karmic debt.

In this scheme, the killer shouldn't really be viewed as the bad guy at all.  Perhaps the husband should actually thank him for honoring his wife and daughter's request and for setting them free from their karmic debt.

Just another example of the sheer insanity promulgated by so-called highly evolved entities such as Seth.  Or more accurately, the twisted mind of Jane Roberts.

R

Beau, and the others,


Quote:

Alan I think you have certainly hit on what, for me anyway, is what the whole discussion is really about. I respectfully disagree that evil is the root of all fear as I believe fear came before evil. Believe me, I wish I saw it your way, Alan, for it is a much easier position to defend. I have given it a lot of thought over the years and while I haven't changed my mind you have given me pause to rethink my position several times and I thank you for that. Logic in this instance does not bear great fruit for me, I guess. Thank you again for the thread as I have enjoyed it immensely.

What was there to fear before anything bad of evil came into existence?

When God created our world he was pleased and said it was good. To me if it were Gods intention to create a perfect universe and a perfect world full of perfect humans, history speaks loudly that he made a colossal mistake.

So we are left with the enigma, how could an Infinite intelligence of infinite perfection create some much less than perfect? Which should perfectly obvious to we humans and definitely to an Almighty God

If we can take the position , that our souls and minds are eternal and infinite, but not perfect, and that as we are all part and parcel of God , that would explain our imperfect reality. We being the imperfect aspect of God

So we a micro entity within the greater macro being we call God, should know that all existence is evolving and ever striving together towards perfect, perfection


Fear is really a useless emotion , remember President Roosevelt's saying , "We have nothing to fear bur fear itself'"

Who then in the far distance brought fear into the world???.

Or is the concept of good and evil only a human created emotion?

Alan]

Always remember people in attack mode are there calling for love.
ACIM

Quote:

Or is the concept of good and evil only a human created emotion?

Alan
I am personally intrigued by the interpretation of the Prodigal Son story a la Gary Renard and would, if only for the sake of argument, say yes to this.

I also have experiences that make me question all these things and am old enough to understand what a difference there can be between what I think i believe and what I experience emotionally. Sometimes it is difficult to rectify the two. I think that is one of the problems here.

I also acknowledge that I have not...or at least not yet but not sure I want the lessons that would help me learn...I have not yet learned to generate enough PUL so that I can remedy pain with a blast of PUL and "burn" my enemies in its fire. Perhaps they would rise like Phoenix from the ashes, reborn in love, no longer to threaten me. After all, what exactly does it mean to share PUL with someone?

Alan,
If one does not fear something, then why would evil ever pervade? The evil done to one of us by another is done to rectify a fear. To say fear happens as a result of evil seems ass backwards to me. Why is someone evil? I promise you it will always come back to a deep held fear. That is why people do horrendous things, many in the name of "good", because they fear the opposite without understanding it. Maybe it is not your (not you personally) wish to understand the "enemy". There is certainly a purpose to that, but I feel in the end you are cheating yourself of a great growth opportunity. It's just an opinion of course and we all have one. Are you saying that there are just some real jerks out there and there is no reason for what they do other than to be horrid? I just don't agree with that. I think we always have the opportunity of examination and when we delve deeper we may find a greater truth in our selves and others. And to be clear, I don't think Good and Evil are emotions at all. I think they are labels to help people focus their emotions, whatever they may be. I think those labels are necessary here, but I don't believe the entire spiritual universe is dualistic. I don't think PUL is good or bad, it just is what it is...energy, pure or at least as pure as we can devise currently (no pun intended) And fear was brought into the world by people whose egos got the better of them and they imagined that perhaps one day they would not be provided for in their garden. All was cool at first then people got to thinking outside the PUL because they had some semblance of free will. I don't have the answers obviously, but I know when something isn't making sense to me. I guess we must disagree on this one, but there are many other areas to chat about and I hope we get to do that in the future.

Yours,
Beau

Beau,

Reading your post, it seems to me we must abandon the concepts of both Good and Evil as these are just personal perception.

In other words it was good for Hitler to murder all those innocent people in his death camps (of course from his perspective)

So being the Good person he perceived himself to be, he was just elimination a subhuman segment of humanity for the greater good of all.

If we say evil is just an illusion , equally we must apply this to good, why not?

You are right when you state that the entire spiritual universe is not dualistic, there are realms in it where only good and love prevail and realms where only darkness and despair prevail . I know this as I have observed both realities in a NDE.

Of course where there is PUL and everyone is a perfect altruist then there is nothing to fear, but such a state of being is  unfortunately not out earthly reality.

We are all on a journey toward higher and greater things or on a journey downward toward lower realms of existence.

God does not judge us, we judge ourselves and our final destiny lays firmly in the palms of the hands of each of us

Alan

Lucy,

ACIM STATEMENT SAYS

[edit]The story of the wasteful son, demonstrates a Son who chooses to leave his rich and abundant life because he thinks he can do better on his own. The son always knows his way home and can return whenever he chooses. The Father is constant and waiting for his Son to return with open arms and celebration. Being cut off from his Source, the son experiences lack and want for the first time. The Father didn't banish him from Paradise and he is not responsible for the son's experience of being apart from him. It reminds us of the story of the temptation to seek the knowledge of good (and not expecting the experience of evil) in the Garden of Eden. The most important point of the story is the contrast between what the Son came to believe was true about himself and what the Father knows to be true.

The Father is not wrathful or the slightest bit interested in punishing His Son. The metaphor is God's Love rushes to meet his Son, knowing his son is forever innocent because He IS His Son...and nothing can ever change that fact...the Son is the extension of the perfection of God forever[/edit].

Well Lucy, if the son in this chapter is us then it reads correct, but if it is a reference to the Lord Jesus Christ, it is false as the Divine Jesus would never had embraced the wrongs and depravity of life.

Jesus is the very embodiment of truth and had no need to find it.

And if we are God then God is imperfect and evolving towards perfection.

I concede, however, that my knowledge relating to the ACIM is very limited indeed

Alan

Alan,
I found much common ground for us in your reply #35. We see many things in a similar fashion. What do you feel about the fact that Hitler was most certainly mentally ill, bi polar at the least. If his brain, or antenna was impaired doesn't that negate his ability to reason out his absurd agenda? I pose this only because you had said that Hitler sees himself as good...It may be that his paranoid delusion left him no other choice.

I just wondered where such an ordeal as that would place him in the eyes of the universe. I think when we suffer from a illness of the mind the ego fills in where the message breaks down and thus we venture out into unreasonable realms. The fear of getting the message wrong or not following through is greater than the ability to reason the universal logistics of such an action.

I have experienced paranoid delusion and I have to say that it was not an evil to me as much as it was misinterpretation because my synapses were firing too fast for my human mind to comprehend the entirety and albeit simplicity of the message/vision.

One could argue that the message was of an evil nature, but I don't think so--I think I misunderstood it. I was not trying to wipe out a nation of people btw...just pretty confused

If there is a place that is completely good, then there is definitely a place that is completely bad, I think. It just seems to me that if we originated from one pure source then we go back to that or rather evolve back to it, but it could be that once good and evil split the perfect balance we are forced to evolve very differently. Thank you very much for taking the time to respond to these posts, Alan. I am new here and I don't have much experience with this type of board, but it has been a great experience.

Yours,
Beau

Alan

I believe the Prodigal Son in this context refers to all of us collectively, that have not returned to the knowledge that we are God.  I think the Jesus Christ part is the part that did experience the separation but then also experienced the return, the Prodigal Son that returned home.

If Jesus the Christ didn't experience the separation, then there would be no way to lead the rest of us back.

The idea was that the separation we created then led to the idea of good and evil.

Rondele,

Hi Rondele and may the coming year be full of hope peace, joy, health happiness and love

Your Quote is in exact accord with mine


Quote:

Alan says: <<If someone broke into your home, raped your wife and daughters before killing them "before your eyes" and then deliberately left you alive so that you could dwell on the horror for the rest of your life.  Would you just dismiss this as the work of basically good but mistaken persons.>> Hi Alan and Happy New Year! Well, those who follow Seth would say that the wife and daughters had a pre-incarnation agreement with the killer before any of them was born.  This agreement provided for the wife and daughters to volunteer as victims so that their necessary karma could be fulfilled. The killer, of course, was merely helping them fulfill their karmic debt. In this scheme, the killer shouldn't really be viewed as the bad guy at all.  Perhaps the husband should actually thank him for honoring his wife and daughter's request and for setting them free from their karmic debt. Just another example of the sheer insanity promulgated by so-called highly evolved entities such as Seth.  Or more accurately, the twisted mind of Jane Roberts.

Quote:

Alan says: <<If someone broke into your home, raped your wife and daughters before killing them "before your eyes" and then deliberately left you alive so that you could dwell on the horror for the rest of your life.  Would you just dismiss this as the work of basically good but mistaken persons.>> Well, those who follow Seth would say that the wife and daughters had a pre-incarnation agreement with the killer before any of them was born.  This agreement provided for the wife and daughters to volunteer as victims so that their necessary karma could be fulfilled. The killer, of course, was merely helping them fulfill their karmic debt. In this scheme, the killer shouldn't really be viewed as the bad guy at all.  Perhaps the husband should actually thank him for honoring his wife and daughter's request and for setting them free from their karmic debt. Just another example of the sheer insanity promulgated by so-called highly evolved entities such as Seth.  Or more accurately, the twisted mind of Jane Roberts.

Rondele

What you have said is pure misinformation.  I don't care if you disagree with what Seth believes, but make sure you have your facts straights before you make judgements.  Seth rarely speaks of karma at all.  He says it is simply a beleif system that is not a natural law, but a human construction.  Not once has he mentioned karmic debt as being a reality.  Rather, Seth would most likely say that the family attracted the event into their lives through their thoughts and beliefs.  There could be several contributing factors in the manifestation of a horrid event such as this, all of them basically originating from false belief systems, fear, and the law of attraction.  Read The Individual and the Nature of Mass Events, this will offer insightful ideas regarding  the nature of events such as this.  

Lucy,

Your quote

Quote:

I believe the Prodigal Son in this context refers to all of us collectively, that have not returned to the knowledge that we are God.  I think the Jesus Christ part is the part that did experience the separation but then also experienced the return, the Prodigal Son that returned home. If Jesus the Christ didn't experience the separation, then there would be no way to lead the rest of us back. The idea was that the separation we created then led to the idea of good and evil.

Lucy,

Remember there were two sons in the story of the Prodigal Son, One left and misused his inheritance, the other remained with the father and continued to obey him.

Humanity collectively are the son that left the father and squandered all his inheritance.

The Son that was with the Father always was Jesus, yes God the Father sent him on a mission and he did experience the awful reality of separation from God.

But Jesus unlike the prodigal son never embraced evil and got as low as eating with the pigs (depravity)

Although separate and tempted like us (Prodigal son) he never even once submitted to evil. All his life he remained pure and undefiled much unlike his rebellious brother or us if you like

Alan

Poetry from the Finale

The world is poor

Her fortune is buried in the sky

And all her treasure maps

Are of the earth



Authentic Messiahs cannot cease

Their meditations on vast human hurt

To heed the pain of nails

Damnation, senseless

Killers! Oh, for a fee



Cassandra, if the worlds on fire

We must save a cup of ashes for

The seed.



Hell’s logic consists in

Preventing murdering by

Murdering the murderer

Heavens logic greets every

Murderer with grace

Dying when the time comes

With beatific face.



A God too large to walk in

Human shoes

Has outgrown hope of

Human use

And heavy skeptics weighted down

With doubt

Can never rise to

God’s about



A   humanist in chocking sea

Called for help presently

Received in full intensity

“You must swim, if you would be.

Self –reliance makes one free

  “That’s nice”

He said and floated easily

         And died I misery



Evil finds a ready home

Where beauty is despised

And ugliness enthroned



Prayer is most real when

we refuse to say “Amen”

We most love heaven when

We will not end our

Conversations quickly

Who found their “Amens

      Close at hand



Come to the court of God

Having eyes unwashed with

Dreams and you will see

   Nothing



Death is the confirmation of

The believer’s creed

For the skeptics it is discovery

   Immense and too late



The first sound sleep we get

         On earth

We must be roused on realm away.



Light is never given

While we fear the dark.



Materiality a blessing all its own.

Spirit -Demons play in fire

Hoping for cremation.

In terror of their immortality

          They envy dying humanity



From the Finale