This is sort of a continuation of what i was talking about over on the multiple world, etc thread.  

 In older, various ancient belief systems, "resurrection" is a fairly common theme.  You see it with the Druids (who i use to be really attracted to btw), with their astrological/astronomical centered beliefs and them saying that the Sun, the ruler of this system, symbolically dies on Winter Solstice and then 3 days later at our present "Christmas" time is reborn.  Btw, Winter Solstice is also the start of the sign Capricorn in the Tropical Zodiac system. Winter Solstice is the shortest day of the year, but it also represents the now lengthening period of the days and of the Sun's power on Earth.  

 Such basic theories and observations are largely the reasoning behind movies like Zeitgeist which try to convince us that there was no historical personality Yeshua, and that his life was just a continuation of these long talked about and repeated  myths/observations adapted to a new culture, times and people.  

Rather i say, there is some micro and macro stuff going on here, which is whole nother very deep and can of worms subject.  Perhaps the Co-Creator of this Universe and reality, built such cycles in on purpose, and later lived a symbolic paralleling of such a cycle.  

 Anyways, these resurrection myths always had to do with the physical Earth in some way, and basically represented the play of the cycle of life and death within the Earth.  Or the changing of one form, into another form, or just the changing of that form.

 Yeshua's Resurrection is on a whole nother level, and yet in some micro ways parallels that basic macro theme, but transcends it because it transcends physicality ultimately.  It is the ultimate changing of distorted, temporal form into perfect, eternal, formlessness.  

 The body and matter in general could be thought of as a reflected, temporal image of what's real.   Einstein perceived that pure energy and matter were really expressions of same thing, the Field, but had different qualities.  

As Bruce talks about in his 2nd book, matter is perhaps just an "area", or consciousness level of the Field, which is super condensed in nature.

 Anyways, why would humanity need more rehashing of astrological/astronomical observations?   How does that really change or affect humanity positively in a deeper way?

 So what the Sun appears to "die" and ressurrect 3 days later (and this coming from one who has been into astrology for 15 years now)?  Certainly doesn't change my life or attitude one iota.  This knowledge doesn't improve my life or state of being at all.  

 But to know that a man, a human like myself, was physically born of a woman, and through suffering and patience, through time and space, through using his Will ever to choose PUL in relation to "others", and the Greater Self, and by and through that totally transcended the illusion of space/time and thus completely freed himself, thus becoming the most effective freedom facilitator of others...

 By providing such a powerful example and being so inspirational...  well that has changed my life and self for the better.  I now know and believe that I too can do likewise.  I know the unlimitedness of my and others potential.  That humanity is far, far, far more than what we give ourselves credit for, and all of this shown by "one of us" who lived as one of us, and not some E.T. "God" from a distant region of space/time.

 That i believe is worthwhile and potentially transforming information, though unfortunately those with little understanding and shallow perception have gotten hold of the purest public example and teachings ever, and have twisted these truths and history to serve their own self centered and materialistic purposes.  

 But he is till there, and will answer if you but just call him,  and you can know him and his life free from the distortions others have built around and over him.   He can help you like none other can, he can help you more than yourself, because he is YOURSELF but in pure, undistorted, non refracted form.

Regarding whether Christ can help people, he sure helped me.

I have a lady friend. For a couple of years she saw a spiritual healer. Doing so had some effect, but it was limited. Recently she had a couple of dreams that told her that she needs to find another way of healing. One problem with the healer she has seen is that he doesn't teach people to heal themselves. The ulterior motive of making them dependent upon him might be involved.

The other night, before she went to sleep, my lady friend prayed for sprit help. Sometime during the night she received the words in a very clear way: "In his name." She knew that Christ was being referred to.  Even though I've spoken to my lady friend about being in touch with spirit guidance, I haven't said a lot about Christ.  The message she received was unexpected.

My lady friend has a lot of experience with the gurus of the World, and has found out that they aren't all that.  Before she got into the gurus she was a born again Christian. This experience caused her to have the discomfort about Christianity that people often have. Nevertheless, something inside has always told her that there is something special about Christ.

I've never gone to a guru. I've always preferred being a loner although I have when young, belonged to a spiritualist group In Long Beach CA, where the minister gave blind readings. He was in service and he was genuine. I was not emotionally attached to any group however. I always had this sense of all religions trying to say the same thing, about brotherhood and oneness, same purpose.
So I joined a church, once, just to be in the choir. They told me I couldn't be a member if I continued to also go to the spiritualist church which did not have a choir. so I couldn't have my cake and eat it too!

I was shocked. I was already living in the future, where anyone can go to any church and do the fellowship thing uncensored.

the next church I tried to join I was feeling kicked out of because I told about my out of body experience and how I had met my unborn children already. they arranged to get me exorcised.

I was shocked again that I was to go on my journey without fellowship. I didn't want to cause trouble for any of these pastors. I felt we were all one, but apparently, people who have mystical journeys are not considered as authentic journeys, although the bible is full of mystical journeys. these things hurt me bad.

I see people hurting others all the time, but unintentionally for the most part. It's only meditation informs me that each is on their separate path, and cannot see we are One when it comes to love.

acceptance of our differences, our different beliefs. One time I met this Witness JW. he asked me, as he was going door to door, why are we having all these different religions? I had no answer, said I'd get back with him on that! lol. He thought his was the only one that was real.
I got him to talking about himself, his life.

He told me in his younger day, and he was about 95 then, he was going door to door then too. a man punched him out. lol. He learned not to be so forceful to get his point across. I think that was his path. You can hold to your beliefs, but it's not worth getting punched out over. He cracked me up. Life had gentled him quite a bit.
He said he hoped he would be one of the chosen ones.

While I was new ager and did not believe as he did. All are chosen in my mind but few choose consistently the voice for love, or the straight and narrow path. Yet I accepted he was with the right religion for him, as he had learned to mellow himself.

One time he told me of a failure. He said a young girl had let him come in and she had tried to give up drugs.
then she had gone back to the drugs. He must have visited her several times. He had tears in his eyes for her. I could feel his pain.

I was able to say something to cheer him. because I could speak religious language myself. I told him, yes, but the seeds you planted in her will someday sprout.

suddenly he agreed and it's true, ideas, concepts, we share, are like seeds, and it is called hope.
she will remember him someday, that someone cared, even if the caring was all cloaked up in religious jargon, someone came to her door and reminded her of, there might be a better way to live, than the high you get from a drug.

she will remember.

religion is not so important, but rather the message of brotherhood is very important. the words get in the way.

It seems to me that it's about impossible to unify a vision for all, especially in the written word world. We all stand in a different place as we look upon anything. Everyone has a different point of view even when they belong to a group or gathering. I think we come together in the light and up until then we are each points of view, physically and spiritually. The light experiences through our experiences perhaps. I mean even the writers of the Bible wrote about something that had happened years before. I think the greatest thing that comes out of it all is this amazing guy who dared to question the establishment, but my guess is he would be questioning the establishment today too.

cheers,
Beau

I agree with Beau, in that this is a diverse planet with varied belief systems in place, if we were all of the same exact viewpoint, what would it be like? a bunch of clones?
but underneath it all, we can learn to listen to each other better and maybe learn from each other that way by that kind of effort.

theres this tune I like by Boyzone. just the other night me and this lady sang it together for the crowd and pulled if off well. It expresses what I'd like to say here: lyrics are "no matter what they tell you, no matter how they attack, what u believe is true. If only prayers were answered, then we would hear God say..no matter what they teach you, no matter what they do, what you believe is true.

Some times what you believe is temporary. but what you believe is often what outpictures for your life.

so it's very important to choose a thought system that rings true for you and search it out carefully, which I assume we do this when we prioritize our lives, about the basic premises.

One of Monroe's basic is, and I assume it's the same for all who enjoy being in the helping professions, the basic is service to life, in all it's forms, animal, human, and our planet.

it's home for now, and part of that basic is a feeling of PUL. and it grows.

but none are there so blind as he who will not see the love that's already there, or here.

it's totally unrealistic to unify all religions, but it is possible to grow spiritually within any one of them and use them to move to the next level or plateau of understanding diversity.

I think wisdom begins with asking questions also Beau, otherwise things stay the way they are.
we should especially welcome children's questions as they are here now and they have knowledge the older ones do not. they are the future.

All I'm saying basically is we can plug into higher knowledge the same as those characters in the bible did in this day and age. we are not "less than" them.
The Christ is still here. Accessible to all. I simply call it Spirit.
this is my way. The Christ understands each and every soul.

But there's no way to share personal experiences, so it's best to just live it as an example. Life is too short to try and get everyone to be in agreement. everyone is on a different page.

O.O.B.D. wrote on multiple worlds, lives thread,
Quote:

"Edit:  I just read Justin's post which gives an answer to this question.  I am not sure that I totally agree that the resurrection's purpose was to show that we can transend physical death, for death is just as natural a part of life as birth, and is a big part of our spiritual growth."

 With this, we touch on some very deep stuff here O.B.Dude.   Since i've not completed this process myself, i'm definitely not the best one to speak about it, so a grain of salt is in order ;-)  

 But anyways, a few psychic sources that i really like and respect talk about this very issue.  Have you read about Rosiland A. McKnight's work with Robert Monroe in the early explorer days, as per her book "Cosmic Journeys"?  Her sessions with Monroe are largely responsible for the overall format and content of TMI's "Gateway Voyage program".  

 Well for example, both her book/work, and the Edgar Cayce work, seem to suggest that our experience of the physical, our perceptions about same are largely illusionary in nature.   In that sense, same old song and dance as many ancient beliefs, particularly Eastern oriented ones.  And now also theoretical, physics oriented science.

 But heres where these particular sources differ, they seem to say that if we attune enough to Source and PUL consciousness, that we would have a different experience and perception of physical life, and if fully attuned and merged with same, we would transcend the experience of "physical death".  

Both guidance energies from both works mention that physical aging and death are illusions and definitely not necessary.   It's both a matter of belief system stuckness, and of not living enough according to love.  If we change those two factors, then we can experience a deathless/ageless state if we want too.  One could say, that the experience of this is a true and ultimate indication of true spiritual growth, maturity, and at Onement with the All...  

 Now come on Dude, you're familiar with Monroe's work, don't you remember reading about "He/She" the almost 2000 year old person who doesn't eat, sleep, age, or die and who is in total control of their energies?

 Now we have 3 pretty good, very deep, non dogmatic, psychic oriented sources talking about a very similar thing here.  All of which have definite verifications connected to their work in some way.

And then we have an historical multiple person account, saying that indeed one person from humanity did fully actualize and achieve this state of being, and lived a very dramatic life to forever impress this truth upon our collective consciousness.  

 Then we have the one and only Shroud of Turin artifact, which just so happens to conveniently match up to many conditions and patterns around the historical "Jesus" in many, multi-layered ways...

 Now taken all together, doesn't this just pry open your mind a little at least to the possibility of such being true?   And honestly, who should i believe on this matter, you and/or Seth, over a combo and similarity of McKnight's work, Monroe's info, the historical N.T., my own intuition and guidance on the matter, the one and only Shroud of Turin artifact, and Cayce's work???  

 Come on Dude, i may be a "incomplete and non physically immortal consciousness" and occasionally not as loving or centered as i should be, but i still have a developed left brain and can reason pretty well.

 Sorry, but for me burden of proof is leaning more towards the latter grouping for patently obvious reasons, though i do generally respect your opinions and perceptions.     Something tells me, that somewhere, someday down the line, your beliefs might quite change in some of these regards.  Just a feeling.    But it will it probably have to come more through your experiences and own clear and more accurately understood guidance messages.  

 Thanks Beau and Alysia, believe it or not, i do agree with much of your replies.  

 However, when a person really becomes spiritually attune, they often are led to the more holistic, broadly accurate, and deeper truths in life.   Since these are universal truths...

So eventually, somewhere on down the line, people as a collective are going to have very similar beliefs about a lot of things., especially about the "basics" as one might say.

 This will be beyond religion, of course.   Religion by then, will be more converted to a universal spirituality that is more intuitive, sincere, balanced and spontaneous in nature.  

 I long for that day, and am working towards fulfilling my little part in it all (and not always that well apparently ;  ).  

 I see it more fully manifesting in a couple hundred years or so, and even by 2050 or so, when much of the social/political/economic and physical Earth changes have culminated and some E.T. groups have publicly shown up, things will be quite improved in this aspect.  

 Btw, nothing wrong with having an open mind towards others beliefs and ideas, but a little twist on the old saying, "don't let the left brain fall completely out and totally disconnect from the right brain lobe."  

 That reasoning,  step by step logical, analytical, perceiving the differences in and between and the relativity of Reality part of us is there for a very good reason, and just as important as the Feminine, Right brain part which sees everything in Wholes and in the same "color" so to speak.  

Justin

I totally agree that the aging process is due mainly to our beliefs, and that it is possible to retain an ageless/deathless state of physical being.  What I am trying to say is that I feel that once we reach a certain point of development here on Earth, we must move on to higher levels where we can develop further, and this requires physical death.  And perhaps it would be possible to ascend, transforming our physical bodies into bodies of light.  I would certainly prefer that!

Btw, I don't speak for Seth.  He is not my only source of information.  Monroe was one of my first sources, and one of the most important in my development.

 Yes, but my main point was that Yeshua came to show this ultimate truth by letting himself be crucified, letting his body lie dead and unconnected to his consciousness for 3 days, and then in a sense, retaking the now transformed body up again.  

 This is what you disagreed with, with the ressurrection, that he came here to show that, and the why behind same.  

 This is why i painstakingly wrote such a long multi layered reply regarding the very possibility of "resurrection" to begin with, and the suggestions in various places that "Jesus", totally unlike what Seth has said, did actually do this.  

 Course, i cannot prove this too you, and maybe it's actually better that way...     But i've gotten info which suggests that to me in the nearish future, Yeshua will show up completely publicly in the same body image he had when born 2000 years ago, to lay bare all the illusions and truths surrounding him and what he accomplished (this is also suggested in Cayce's work).   But as he himself said, first we are going to go through a lot of spiritual hogwash, false spiritual sources and teachers, some of whom will try to lead people away from the deeper and non religious truths of Christ and exactly what he meant and means to humanity.    

 I don't know the date for this, wish i did, but don't.  But i feel it will happen in my lifetime though.

 Be well, and hope you grow to your fullest potential in this life.  It's possible that you could perhaps reach that physical/nonphysical merged state in this life.   You got a good chance at that kind of "completion" within the physical.  

  Wanna race me there? :D

 And according to a synthesis of Cayce's work and the Shroud of Turin, look for a man who follows roughly this description.   Course, most of us will know him by his radiation..but for those less deeply, accurately intuitive look for...

 A youngish but very mature looking man some 6 foot or so in height, weight about 173 or so with a strong, but naturally muscular, athletic build (meaning he wouldn't look like a jock who has worked out with weights).  

 Facially good looking, somewhat long and broad face with high forehead, not much Hebrew like features all in all, noble features.  

 Coloring, hair and/or if beard at all, is rather reddish golden light brown mix.   Eyes, piecing heavy gray blue.  

 You know what's interesting O.O.B.D.    One time, way back when in like the 20's or 30's Cayce described this mans looks, and said his weight would have been at least 170 lbs.  

 Well flash forward many years, intensive forensics type research is being done on the Turin Shroud by medically trained folks, etc.

 Flash forward many more years, Justin reading a book on the research of the Shroud, and reading that one of the medically trained people who did research on the Shroud, would have best guess estimated the mans weight to have been 170 or so, give or take a few lbs.  

 Justin's eyes then bulge a bit out of his head and loudly exclaims out loud.   "Well hot damn, that's quite close to what Cayce said!"

 Btw, the man on the Shroud also didn't look more stereotypically Hebrew like (one of the skeptics arguments against it actually), at least not compared to todays standards which are a bit different considering that 2000 years and more mixing has passed.  For one, he was kind of tall for that people, area, climes and times, though contrary to popular belief, not overly tall.   Probably something like the equivalent of a 6' 3" or 6' 4" Caucasian man today.  Unusual, but not that uncommon.  

 

I think Jesus was pretty cool, from what he said, or even if he never said it it's still powerful. I have a tremendous appetite for conspiracy theories, or so I'm told. I learned much from the Gnostic stuff too. All my life my family talked of Jesus coming back and how they would be there to see it, my grandmother in particular. I'm not convinced of that. In fact I think the second coming kind of misses the point. Now I would have never had the guts to write that even 5 years ago, but I think there have been wise servants of the human condition through out history and we have missed many of them because we stayed glued to the past ideals. Christianity has much beauty within it, there can be no doubt, but it also encourages, as can be seen throughout history, the overtaking of others--That's not the point, I know, but still when we attempt to bring others to our POV we are cutting their spiritual roots out from under them. To offer something is one thing, but to say "without Christ (as I and many of my friends understand him) you are going to miss out on Heaven (or whatever, is breaking the only truly greatest gift of spirit which is the golden rule. Even the 10 Commandments breaks the golden rule in my humble opinion. Is the religion for or against something? Does being for something mean it has to be against that that isn't part of it? And who traditionally has decided what a religion will be for or against? I think that a marriage of Church and State automatically breaks the golden rule. Not that the State is any better at being fair. I'm new here and I don't want to press anybody's buttons...but as long as it's friendly I hope we can have such discussions. ;)

Yours,
Beau

 Hi there Beau, welcome to this group of colorful and eclectic folks.  

I'm not a fan of fundamentalism in any form myself, and have thought since a boy that the whole going to hell eternally thing was hogwash, and a manipulative tactic.  

  I personally do not consider myself religiously "Christian", though in a sense i do consider myself Christian in the respect that while i have many diverse spiritual interests and have looked into many belief systems (and see truth in many), well when it comes to a spiritual teacher, I look always and primarily to the example and life of Yeshua.  I have  two main teachers in the more narrow sense of the word, beyond life itself, and that is my Greater self and Yeshua.  

 Lately, i realize i've been coming off too strong about defending this example from what i consider slander and distortion.  I will try to tone it down.  My beliefs and debating, i realize, will probably not change anybody's thinking or perceiving anyways.  It may actually push people away from him, i dunno.

 Anyways, welcome to the site.  Bruce Moen i would say, is a pretty good source to check out.  Certainly is wiser than myself in some respects.

Justin:

I believe it is a mistake to say too much, but sometimes it can be a mistake to say nothing. Finding a balance can be difficult, partly because people respond in different ways. I don't believe that people who aren't open to what a person has to say, should be the barometer of what a person says. If Jesus concerned himself about people who didn't want to hear what he had to say, he would've said nothing. Truth is truth, regardless of how people feel about it.

Hello Justin and et al.

I think Jesus spoke to those who asked, other than his sermons of course. The idea that one knows better than another might be the crux of the whole issue. I feel weird talking about my feelings in these matters because I don't want to squelch someone else. There is a little bit of the Emperor's new clothes going on with so much. I like Bruce's approach because he invites you to find out for yourself...rather than accepting the word of an ancient book that was written for many political reasons in addition to spiritual ones. Deciphering the answers is part of the fun of living for me. I like to learn from my mistakes and it helps me not judge others in the process. I've been told many times that the bible is there to keep us from failing on our path, but when I go to church I feel way out of place. And I don't mean that I feel I'm ahead of that group. It just seems that so much information is "blasphemed" by them and it's usually info that I find quite compelling...so what's a guy to do, right? My gf is devout, but we get along very well and I don't feel like she's trying to convert me ever and she very often makes a lot of sense--but she is very wary of my endeavors on this subject of the afterlife. Oh well, it all works out. These conversations are very interesting to me cause I want to make the right choices in how to talk to my 13 year old about spirituality and so far this board has been fantastic with ideas. His mother brought him up pretty strict christian, but he has veered a bit from that in the last year or so. We had our first deep convo about it a few weeks ago and it's amazing how he reasons things out for himself at such a young age. As far as how much to talk about it, I don't know. I try to keep my mouth shut unless asked, but it can be hard sometimes. Thank goodness I can write on here a couple of times a day. Thank you for being here, each and all...very  comforting.

 True enough Albert, and i also think it's important to not degrade the person who has the beliefs while speaking against the said beliefs.  

 Part of the problem with Jesus, Christianity, and that historical whole scene is that "Christians", the majority who call themselves such and who believe in a particular organized branch of same, have been much too overly passionate about trying to get people to believe in same.  

  To the point, too often and too severely by degrading the person with different beliefs or trying to making them fearful, and not just disagreeing with the beliefs themselves.  

 This understandably is a huge turn off for most people and part of why most of the Christian religions and why Christians in general are so disliked and understandably so.  

 But at the time, it's kind of sad that a lot of people don't get that a person can be very for Yeshua, and not for Christianity or religion in general, and that a person who is for Yeshua is not necessarily religious or overly dogmatic/structured/narrow minded in viewpoint.

 The truth of the matter is, that we all believe in some dogma or another, and have dogmatic moments, otherwise if we had none of either, we would be "completed beings" as Monroe met and talked about.

 Quite a few people, even some here at this site, are overly dogmatic and close minded about Yeshua, BUT in a different direction and with a different emphasis than religious Christians.    Either way, close mindedness is closemindedness, it's just that "usually" the non religious folks are less forceful and/or personally degrading than the religious ones.  

 I once met a guy on an astrology forum.  We disagreed strongly with each other's beliefs in some respects.   I would debate this persons beliefs, but he would constantly personally attack me and my character instead of actually debating the points i brought up and which disagreed with my beliefs.  Part of his "rational" for this, was because i had no problem debating other peoples beliefs, and sometimes was too vocal in same.  But i usually kept it impersonal and about the beliefs.

 He wasn't Christian, nor religious, but his modus operandi was similar.   Tear down and degrade the person whose beliefs you don't like.   I was called and labeled all kinds of really negative things.   Ironically, this person considered themselves a highly spiritual and centered person.   Granted, they had a very "cool manner" (one could say cold) about them, especially compared to my sometimes overly passionate and Fiery expressions.

 Anyways, the constant personal criticism and personal guru stuff became very tiring real fast.  If he had just debated the beliefs to begin with, i would have had a lot more respect for him because in some ways compared to others on that particular forum, we did have some similar ideals, beliefs, and ideas.   To be fair though, i was going through a rather negative and slower than normal vibrating for me, cycle then, and i oft wasn't that constructive there because of my uncenteredness.  
  Hence there is nothing wrong with disagreeing with that, but the trouble and problem comes in with you start to label a person in a fixed manner, as if they were always that way, and will always be that way.   It's like you put a stamp on their forehead that says "rejected" and nothing more to talk about.

 That is not PUL oriented At All.  My guidance has disagreed with me oft and even have gently criticized my ways or expression, but they never get that judgmental or negative in nature.  Strangely enough, this same person did the same thing to you later on another site, and just because you disagreed with and pointed out the limiting aspects of their beliefs and because you do that with others more impersonally.   I never once saw you attack him in a personal manner despite that at one point he viciously attacked and labeled you some rather negative things.

 I guess my point is, it is far better to err in overly debating and disagreeing with people about their beliefs, than personally attacking, belittling, and degrading the actual person who holds same.

Hello Beau:

My reason for having good feelings about Christ aren't based upon believing in the Bible. There was a point in my life where I realized that I just didn't know what Christ is about. I prayed and found out in a number of ways that he is a significant light being.  I also realized that I received messages about him before I asked.  I can't say what Christ is all about, but I don't believe that fundamentalism has the answers.  Going by the messages and experiences I've had, Christ does seem to have a bigger responsibility in the grand scheme of things, than spirits that used to be human tend to have.  I once received a message stating: "The Bible's story of the lamb is mostly correct." I figure it is up to each person to decide what "mostly" means. I figure that opening one's mind and heart to divine revelation is a more trustworthy than relying on one's intellect.

 Hi Beau,

Good points and thank you for sharing some of yourself and your life here.  Re: Yeshua and his teaching style, if the N.T. is to believed, then yes he often seemed to have a "laid back" approach, but at other times he could be and was more fiery and passionate in nature.   Seems like he wasn't static, but changed his approach according to the need and situation at the time.

  And, you seem to forget the many instances wherein he debated with various know it all spiritual expert, religious leaders back then.  Often he remained silent, but plenty of times he cut up their logic and reasoning with his greater perception and truths.  Occasionally he even strongly criticized their corrupt ways, and at others times more gently.

 It seems like with the general people, with the so called common folks, he was more gentle in expression than say with the Pharisees who constantly tried to debate him and catch him in some major contradiction of the Torah.  

 And i'm pretty sure that he believed he "knew better" than they did.  It's just that he didn't look down upon, or personally degrade others, because of their limited knowledge and limiting beliefs.  He always concentrated on the good in others, and sometimes by extension their beliefs, but plenty of times he vocally disagreed with their false aspects beliefs.   Does that make him an unloving and unwise person?

I've received spirit guidance from Christ, and he does know better than me. I'm certain he realizes this. This doesn't make him egotistical and it doesn't mean he looks down on me, even though he does see me from above. ;)



wrote on Dec 19^th, 2008 at 4:03pm:

Hi Beau,  And i'm pretty sure that he believed he "knew better" than they did.  It's just that he didn't look down upon, or personally degrade others, because of their limited knowledge and limiting beliefs.  He always concentrated on the good in others, and sometimes by extension their beliefs, but plenty of times he vocally disagreed with their false aspects beliefs.   Does that make him an unloving and unwise person?

recoverer wrote on Dec 19^th, 2008 at 3:59pm:

I figure that opening one's mind and heart to divine revelation is a more trustworthy than relying on one's intellect.

 Yup, and more so than reading something in a book and swallowing that, or the whole book, hook, line, and sinker.   Or for that matter, listening to a teacher or guru, especially those who proclaim themselves enlightened.  

 On average, it is far better and more reliable to go within, and even if you really like and resonate with a particular source, to check that info against what your guidance or self experiences says.  

I think that need to degrade another's belief system comes from getting along a path too quickly to actually understand where you are. I can be defensive sometimes for sure but I hope I eventually take strides to apologize for any smarted feelings. I crave a broad discussion and I guess I am guilty of shutting down when I hear what to me seems shallow or unimaginative...but I have often found that I was too quick to judge when that has occurred in the past. I like Thomas Jefferson's Bible...I think it was Jefferson. Great day to all.

Beau

Beau:

I can't see that you said anything that would degrade somebody's belief system.

Regarding myself, when I see that a source of information intentionally seeks to deceive people, I figure I have a responsibility to say something.  What kind of World would this be if fraudulent sources of information and those who support such sources had the freedom to speak their mind, but those who know differently didn't?

If I believed in something that is false, I wouldn't mind if people spoke against it. Even if I wasn't willing to acknowledge that I was into something fraudulent, I am certain that a day will come where I will be happy that people chose to speak against the fraudulent source I believe in, despite how it effects my feelings.

I never write with the intent of hurting somebody's feelings. Unfortunately, the state of affairs exist in this World and perhaps beyond, so sometimes perhaps, there is no choice but to allow the risk that you might hurt somebody's feelings.

Even if nobody ever said anything that seems to be negative, one can be certain that somebody, somewhere, doesn't believe in what one believes in. Should one's feelings be hurt?

A lot of people would think I'm nuts if they heard about the spiritual experiences I've had. So what? They can think of me as they like.

I must confess, Rec, that it is a little sophmoric, but I don't want to wind up in focus 25 when I could keep striving and maybe make it to 27. But it seems the people in here regardless of their beliefs are pretty open minded.

Same here Beau. I don't want to end up in a focus 25 belief system. Therefore, I've found out what I've found through spiritual means.

Here's an example of receiving a clue about Christ before I tried to do so.

I was meditating and I saw the face of a man. He seemed to be in distress. I figured he needed retrievel help and spoke to him in such terms. Suddenly I found myself at the top of a cliff having a conversation with this man (non-physically).  I tried to get him to go to the light. He jumped off of the cliff and into the ocean below. I jumped in after him. I continued to talk to him while we were both under water. Next, we talked at the top of the cliff again.  Suddenly accross a bay to my left the image of Jesus appeared. Gold light radiated from Jesus and filled the landscape. The man I tried to help forgot all about me and floated to the shore where Jesus stood.

Here's another example.  Early on during my kundalini (creative aspect of being) unfoldment process I lay in bed awake one night, and suddenly I saw a lifesize image of a heavy metal rocker dude. I could see kundalini flowing within him. He said: "I use my kundalini for evil." Next, I saw a lifesize demonic image of myself. Next, I saw the face of Jesus Christ.  The message was clear. If I'm going to go through the kundalini unfoldment process, make certain that I do so with Christ consciousness/love in mind. Our creative energy can be used in different ways.

Another example, years ago I had what I refer as a night in heaven experience. At the time I was an atheist. I figured science had all the answers. Nevertheless, I found myself in higher realm one night. The happiness level was absolutely wonderful.  Not only did I understand that the afterlife exists, I completely understood how it was possible for it to exist without having to think about it.  I understood that everything works out wonderfully in the end. That our life of problems in this World isn't what life is really about. At the beginning of the experience I experienced the presence of Christ. I experienced his presence in a way where I didn't have to see his image. I understood without receiving any words that Christ is a key part of divine reality. It was an automatic knowing. There was nothing repressive about this. At the end of the experience I saw a star flash. I figure this star represented Christ.

It didn't take long for me to forget about the above experience. I forgot about it, just like some people forget about their near death experiences for a while.  After I made conscious contact with my higher self/spirit guidance, my memory of the above experience came back to me. I now remember it more completely than I did the days that followed the experience. I can't experience the full impact of the experience by thinking about it, but I am certain of this. When I had the experience I was absolutely certain about what I experienced and what I was understanding.

Here's an experience I had relating to Christ after I asked about him. One night I was reading a book by Elaine Pagels, and she wrote that the Gospel According to Thomas speaks of Jesus as if he was an enlightened being, the Gospels of Mark, Matthew and Luke speak of him as if he is a messenger of God, and the Gospel of John speaks of him as if he is God incarnate. Before I went to sleep that night I prayed for a dream telling me which Gospel is true.

In the middle of the night I woke up from a drream, turned on my night lamp, and grabbed my dream journal and a pen, so I could write some notes. Before I could write anything I saw a light flash. I see spirits appear as points of light when I see them through my crown chakra. The light I saw on this occasion was much larger than any point of light I had seen before. It also radiated more energy than any point of light I had experienced before. It felt divine. It felt more real than the physical World. The thought occurred to me with a laugh, "And people don't believe in the World of spirit."

I put my note pad and pen away, turned off my night lamp, and lay on my side. I was overcome by the energy of the spirit that visited me. I didn't see nor hear Christ, but I inwardly understood that this was the spirit of Christ. His presence worked on my energetic system for about 15 minutes. It did so in a manner that is beyond how kundalini operates. Ever since, the energetic flow in my upper chakras has been more clear, balanced and alive.

I felt lots of love, grattitude, humility and reverences towards Christ as this took place. My belief is that the spirit of Christ knew how to find my energetic signature, and he extended a part of his spirit to my energy signature so it could be worked on. I had a number of follow up visitacions. On some occasions the energy would push towards my crown chakra so intensly, it felt like my head would come off. It is no longer necessary for such intensity to take place.

So which gospel is true? I don't know. Perhaps each is correct in its own way. The key is that the spirit of Christ can reach out to anybody he wants to reach out to. Perhaps, all a person needs to do is ask.

There have been a few occasions where the image of Jesus appeared to me as I received a message.

There is a way to think of Christ that won't cause a person to end up in a focus 25 belief system. Belief systems exist in different ways. Perhaps the Monroe model can become a belief system if a person doesn't watch out.  

Excellent post, Rec. I may be a little bit unintentionally misleading in my posts. I have no doubt that the Christ light is what it's all about. My problem is with the texts...certainly not all of it, but some of it. Old or New Testament those writings had more purpose than enlightenment in my eyes. But when you speak of Christ I can see that you have are open to what Christ is saying and that is a beautiful thing. I live in the south, US. It is a true Bible belt down here and Jesus comes up I don't always know where someone is coming from at first. I don't know about the afterlife to a great extent as I've only had a few fleeting encounters with what I think may be related to it. And certainly your point at the end of your post is very true about The Monroe idea becoming a Focus 25 system of it's own if one isn't careful. I guess I am still attempting to bring the character of Jesus in the bible together with what I feel is the Christ light. I mean here the person as spoken of more than his own words. I believe the Bible is fallible so I have to secure my information from sources that ring true for me. Your above post is one of them and I thank you for that.

 Hi Beau,

   You are a Monroe fan?   Me too, i read all his books and his 1st bio--I attended the Gateway Voyage program at TMI in Faber VA.  If you are interested in some non dogmatic, non religious info about Yeshua, then i recommend reading "Cosmic Journeys" by Rosiland McKnight whom was a long time, early explorer of Bob's.   There are a few interesting references to him and his life in there.  

 I'm sure you've probably already read it, but there is a part in Monroes 2nd book wherein he shares one of the sessions that a woman had in his laboratory or at TMI.   It seems like a channeling of some sorts, and if you read it carefully, it seems like she is channeling none other than Christ himself.     At one point this Being says something like, "Many people look for my coming.. In truth I never left...  Do not look for me in the form of a man, the time hasn't come yet."  (all from memory, so don't completely quote me)

 In Bob's 3rd book, Ultimate Journeys, he talks about an interesting meeting between his OBE self, with a physically alive person that he finds out is some 1800 years old.   If you read this account carefully, it might lead you to some conclusions about the identity of this person.  
For example, in one part Monroe is talking to He/She about him/herself, and says something like this to this person, "nobody really believes you exist."   Keep in mind, Bob for many years did not much have much respect or liking for the Christian religion and religious people, and was probably skeptical about some or many of its claims.  
In another part during that conversation, Bob mentions that he perceives this person as "occidental" in origin, meaning western or near eastern and NOT Asiatic.   There are a couple of other subtle clues in this account for those who have ears to hear and eyes to see.  

  Then there is the Edgar Cayce readings, which out of all of the psychic type sources i've yet studied so far, has the most independently and materially verified info.   This work claims quite repeatedly and emphatically, that despite some editing and skewing of the NT that it is basically a correct story, and that Yeshua was the first of humanity (during slower vibrating cycles) to completely over come physical death, and all physical illusions.   There are other cycles he mentions, much like some of Monroes info also talks about, that there were times in the long distant and forgotten past when many, many "humans" were more Godlike in nature, similar to the developement of Yeshua.  (As an aside, there are quite a few concepts in Monroes work, that are first and previously found in Cayces work..how coincidental eh?)

 Not only that, this source fills in some of his lost years, and talks about his various other lifetimes.   Yes, Cayce started out a religious Christian and remained essentially Christian in orientation, but during his psychic work he came across many concepts that first seemed to contradict his Christian beliefs at the time, like reincarnation, astrology, and various other topics.   Cayce eventually expanded and opened up his mind to these non religious beliefs, because he repeatedly saw the helpfulness of his source and the info that streamed through him.  
So much for belief systems always influencing ones perceptions.  Certainly didn't apply to Cayce and the info that came through him.

  But beyond that, i recommend getting the truth for yourself during meditation/nonphysical exploration and dreams.  Like Albert, i've had both dreams and nonphysical experiences which lead me to believe that Yeshua was everything that the N.T. claimed he was, and then some.  
My experiences haven't been quite a dramatic or numerous as Alberts, but there are reasons for that.   I was 13 when i first started to become interested in nonphysical subjects, started to have conscious nonphysical/psychic experiences and became interested in  things like other lives, astrology, meditation, Yin/Yang concepts etc.    At first i gravitated more to Eastern influenced beliefs.  

  But even then, i had a strong attraction to and deep respect for Yeshua.   Investigating the history of Christianity though, well it made me kind of sick, and yet there was ever that deep attraction and respect of Yeshua.  
  Later on, my studies into the Cayce readings, which i started to look into because of mysterious health issues, and which helped me a lot in that area, just cemented my respect for this figure, and really expanded my mind about the role he played and does play in things.   Cayce's source essentially seemed to place him in the role of main Spiritual director for this Universe, and especially for Earth.  

   I don't ask you to blindly accept my beliefs, or the beliefs of the above sources.  I however hope that these may be an inspiration for you wanting to go within and get answers from your Greater Self about what this person and his life meant and means to humanity.  

  I'm not a dogmatic, close minded person.  I've had experiences with E.T.'s, "ghosts", guides, and the all gamut that doesn't fit into little belief system boxes that all too often religion tries to put around Reality/unreality.   But i certainly don't know everything, I'm not a completed Being in Monroe's terminology and never claimed to be.  But i am fairly perceptive and open, and try hard to live a PUL centered life from being ever more "green" in lifestyle, to being vegetarian, to working in a service profession (i work with kids who have multiple disabilities), to being in a challenging at times, but exciting and growth filled marriage with a woman as complex and stubborn as myself, to well, i think you get the point that i'm not a fundie nor a newbie in spirituality.  

  I'm only 28 years old, but i've been at this spiritual quest thing for 15 years now, and in some respects have had some very deep and challenging life experiences in that time.   I've been at periods so depressed to be near suicide, and at other times thought i would have a complete breakdown because of multi-layered challenges thrown my way by my Greater self for growth purposes.

Yet, in the last couple years despite inconsistent meditation and plenty of deeper life challenges still thrown my way, almost everyday and consistently i'm quite joyous, happy, appreciative, and fairly centered in both expression and in inner feeling.  Please don't let a young face and temporarily brash and somewhat pushy manner fool you.  

Boy, i really just tuted my own horn just now, lol you can add arrogant, egotistical tendencies to the above mix too.  ;)  Another Leo Rising tendency of mine at times.  

I wrote, talking about Yeshua, "Cayce's source essentially seemed to place him in the role of main Spiritual director for this Universe, and especially for Earth. "

 This actually reminds me of another Monroe connection surprisingly.  In Monroe's first book, he mentions a very unusual occurance that happened at least a few times when he was exploring the nonphyscial in OBE state.  

 He states that it didn't matter where he was, or who he was with, but on occasion this immensely powerful, rushing energy would sweep through whatever dimension he was focused in at the time, and then everyone in that dimension around Monroe, would "lay down with their bellies up".  

 He said it wasn't coerced, but just something that everyone spontaneously and naturally did for some reason (and he felt the same urge too).   He asks questioningly "Is this God's Son?"  Perhaps, it was a humility, reverence thing for all these consciousnesses, wherein they realized the Co-Creator of their reality was passing (or rather concentrating) through?

 This also reminds me again of the Cayce readings.  With Cayce's work, he wasn't technically a medium type channel.    Other consciousnesses/beings rarely ever spoke directly through him, but rather he would go OBE during a very, very deep altered, meditative state, and communicate with various beings and energies, and relay the info via his own actual consciousness.  

 Anyways, on a few occasions we find him giving a reading, and all of a sudden it cuts off, and "higher self connected" Cayce starts to speak in a hushed and very reverent manner, and says something like, "Quiet, the Master is passing by.."  

 Occasionally Yeshua directly spoke through, or relayed info via Cayce, but it was rare.  Cayce almost never remembered his readings consciously, but occasionally before and especially after a reading was given, he felt the presence of Yeshua/Christ, and sometimes experienced a warm but powerful Golden light energy.  In one Reading, it was given that Cayce's work was essentially and ultimately the work of "the Master of Masters" or Christ Yeshua if you prefer

 Then, in Monroe's first biography, he talks a little bit about the nature of this Universe and its Creator.   He said something like things got a little too crazy in it's Creation, and then the Creator decided to become directly involved in the drama.  Monroe is not necessarily speaking of The Source btw, when talking about a "Creator".  

 Not surprisingly, this again echoes info found in the Cayce readings, which suggest at different points, similar to John gospel in the N.T., that Yeshua Disk or Spirit Essence is the very Co-Creator of this particular Universe/reality.   In the Cayce work, it is said that Christ, the Co-Creator wasn't originally directly partaking in its Creation, but started to after many of its brothers/sisters/children started to become increasingly stuck.  
It decided to first show up as a deathless, unborn teacher who just manifested a body for itself, but saw that this approach wasn't working, and so then decided to become more immersed and enmeshed in this drama in Earth.   It decided to partake in the reincarnation cycle, and took a risk of forgetfullness to do so.   This spiritually leading the way pattern, culminated in Christ's fastest vibrating lifetime as Yeshua, whom Rosiland McKnights guidance claims at one point in her book "Cosmic Journeys" was "the highest vibratory being to ever come to Earth."

  Not surprisingly, in Bruce's 4 book, Voyage to Curiosity's Father, we again find some fascinating, but subtle suggestions along this line when Bruce talks to the "Planning Intelligence".  The P.I. informs Bruce and his exploration partner, that the P.I is the Creator of this Universe, and like a Father to it, but YET was still the Child of THE Creator, of original Source.  
  During their initial contacts with the P.I., Bruce's exploration partner when tuning into and communicating with the P.I., got strong associations with the Christ and the Christ concept.  Hmm, yet she was not a "religious" person by any means...

 Ok, not only that, but in Bruce's remembrance or vision of the birth of Creation, as shared with him by the P.I., we find yet more parallels with Cayce's work.  
 
  Cayce's work suggests that the Christ Soul, was one of the first Souls to separate from Source and yet also the first Soul to fully merge with Source/The Creator again, even before the Earth and this Universe were manifested.   Cayce's source also says that this Soul, or Spirit, was and is the same thing/consciousness/energy as that we term "Love".  

 Again, not surprisingly, this mirrors and echoes Bruce's vision of this birth of Creation and that, that One being, one aspect, one spark of "Consciousness the Creator", which to him seemed "thrown outwards", indeed return fully completed and merged with "Consciousness" before any other, and thus became a model for further Creating on part of Source, and now with its Child's help.  

  This all was bit of an experiment in Bruce's interpretations.  Anyways, when examining this particular Spark, and why it was so successful in its purpose and in its mission, it realized that it was because PUL was an integral part of its Beingness, and that PUL acted much like, in analogy, water which surrounds and connects all the little particles of dry cake mix, making them all different/unique and yet One and connected at the same time.

 In the N.T., particularly in John's Gospel, we read that Christ is the Light of the world.  

   Light, the consciousness of same, is what connects everything to everything else, it is the essence of "The One Field", it is like the water that Bruce talks about.   According to Bruce and to the P.I., the P.I. is that very Light, it is the first awareness or rather concrete expression of PUL in Creation.  

  Sure, this all sounds very far out to many here, but the repeating parallels, suggestions, and connections between these very different and seemingly unconnected sources is undeniable and uncanny.  Come on, we would expect to find parallels between Monroe and Moen's work, but between them and also with Cayce's and the N.T.?

 It all came together for me (though i sensed parts and connections of it here and there), one night while taking a relaxing bath.  I received a "rote" totally and seemingly out of the blue then, and had one of those "Aha" moments and feelings, where I saw all the connections from these various sources that i had studied (and more than the ones i have just mentioned), and just knew beyond a doubt, in my gut (actually more in my Heart and Forehead  ;) ) that my conclusion/synthesis/over view was completely right on.  

 I later wondered why i didn't get it all before.  After all, for years i was trying to figure out this Jesus guy, and what was the true story with him.  I guess i had to get to a certain point in my own spiritual developement before i fully comprehended and more importantly accepted all of it.  

 No wonder why, then, that Albert frequently hears or hears of things like from his guidance, or his close friends guidance, things like, "In His name".   It's very similar to the things that Cayce's source oft said, and Albert has never studied or been into Cayce.  





 

 One more issue before i go, and related to my speaking out against a certain author and supposed guide.  Yeah, i know the below sounds overly religious and fundamentalist, but if you consider all the above two posts, it's not so narrow minded as one might initially think (and which i first did initially before i became more holistically and accurately aware of certain truths).

 From the Cayce readings on outside, nonphysical sources of info (such as in mediumship and the like):
In one Cayce reading, someone asks this source "Q-How can I discern the helpful entities or forces from those forces that would do me harm?"
 The answer was pointed, and brief, "A-In each experience ask that they acknowledge the life, the death, the resurrection* of the Jesus, the Christ.  They that answer only in the as in the affirmative; otherwise, "Get thee behind me, I will have no part with thee.  Through His name only will I, accept direction." "
Reading 422-1

*emphasis added by me

 If all the above stuff i have outlined, correlated, and synthesized is more true than not, then perhaps people here will get a glimpse into why i occasionally speak out and disagree with others about the helpfulness of sources which contradict the above standard and which slander this teachers very example.   I feel such sources are rather misleading and/or ignorant, in some cases they are purposely so and in others they just don't know better and aren't that spiritually mature/aware.    
  As Cayce's guidance said, this contradiction speaks against their very basic helpfulness and it would be wise to not listen overly deeply to such sources.

 When it comes to Jane Roberts and Seth, i'm not totally sure if Roberts was more so "channeling" her unconscious aspects of mind,   an outside, individual nonphysical consciousness, or just making it all up.  The fact that all of her other channelings involve famous people seems to argue that she wasn't channeling actual real spirits, but either her own unconscious aspects of mind, or just making most of it up as she went along, and for obvious materialistic reasons of being well known and/or making money.  I looked up her general astro chart one time, and she has strong indications of inherent tendencies of both materialism and self delusion in her chart.  
 Interestingly enough, both Cayce's guidance and McKnights guidance constantly refused to "give names" when asked, and said that such would be limiting in tendency.   Very occasionally some guidance names came through Cayce's info, but it was very rare in the some 40 year and mostly consistent span of pretty much daily readings.  

I will read these books you recommend, Justin, and I thank you for mentioning them. I am very glad to read what you write and I don't find what you have to say tedious or arrogant. I believe at the root of all existence there is only ONE thing. That duality is the illusion of separation. And if we truly are all one then ultimately there can be no Good and Evil, Love and hate and any other duality that you can think of. This is hard for me to write about because I have been misinterpreted many times when I say these things. When I am in a play with other actors at the end of it we all go out and have a big party after even though the people we played on stage that night may have killed each other and hated one another. Sometimes in life we forget that we are playing roles and that the costume will come off at the last day...The actor or seeker isn't going anywhere, but the character we played in this world must succumb to the end of his natal chart. So my point about Jesus is that I find fault with the Character's portrayal, not with the essence or actor that tried to break down the walls of the mind. I have yet to believe that Jesus was born of a virgin, or that his birthday is same as Osiris. And I have yet to believe in the resurrection as it is spelled out in the gospels, but I take great pride in my acceptance of what Jesus did. It's not that I am unopen to believing those things about Jesus...It's not as important to me as what he said and did. You know what bugs me the most about Church? When I go in there and everyone is talking about treating Jesus as a king--as though Prince Charles life would appeal to him. I get that a lot down here and it's true I don't go to church anymore, unless it's something special that my giirlfriend wants to go to.
Thank you for posting all this wonderful info about yourself and what connections you've made for yourself. It is very inspiring. I'm glad you pursued me on this subject because I do tend to fret a little when someone invokes the name of Jesus...because nine times out of ten, it's to tell me what's wrong with what I think. To me we are all interpreting the same message...I know, there appears to be other ones, out there, but to me ultimately all road lead to OM, so to speak...some roads are just a hell of a lot longer and less interesting. I don't think anyone burns in hell unless that's just the only they can see it coming together for them. You know what it is? Down here Jesus and Judgment are kind of one and the same. Don't get me wrong I'm not implying that you think this way...and maybe you do. I just don't believe anything is stagnant in the universe. I make the decision to move on or go back based on my ability to learn what I need from a given moment or life time. My separation from Christ is my own illusion to overcome. Jesus laid the groundwork to retrieve me and the Christ light will fulfill it when I can pull the veil down and see the connection without winding up in the pysch ward. Again many thanks for sharing and as soon as I finish Bruce's third book I will go back to Monroe and I'll look for this new book you've mentioned too. Many thanks for taking the time to benefit me.

Yours,
Beau

 Wow, thank you much for your kind, thoughtful, open hearted/minded reply!  
And very good points, in the end it's all about the Oneness and not any one thought, idea, or Being.  Something that my Teacher would say :) .   Sometimes i don't hold that enough in my consciousness.  

 Btw, i completely understand where you are coming from, except that perhaps i've  had an easier time of it.  I grew up primarily in MA, and had two laid back, non religious but spiritually oriented parents, and thus had all the freedom to choose my own path and beliefs.  Neither of them ever pushed their beliefs on me, and in most instances it wasn't till i was much older and already formulated my own basic beliefs, that i knew more fully what my Mom or bio Dad believed (for example, when i was 18 and had my first E.T. experience in a dream, she told me about some of her rather unusual experiences in that area).  
  My Mom's sickness with cancer when i was 16, and then later death when i was 20, was a very catalytic and transformational experience for me.   We were/are very close, and were born on the same B-day, Jan. 8th.  Since her death, she has become one of my occasional guides, and i had a very powerful meditational experience with her when at TMI (and a few dreams with her, before and after then).  

 Anyways, a few years ago, i moved down to VA from MA.  To say that there was bit of a culture shock is perhaps an understatement, and lol good thing that i'm usually fairly patient and tolerant of other peoples expressions.   I mean, i'm like ultra liberal to the nth degree, and now living in a very red necky area out in more western Va.   I drive an E-bicycle to work sometimes and am poly amorous despite i'm married (my wife is too), to give you a sense.  

 But even up in MA, i had had some challenging run ins with fundamentalist and close minded religious Christians which were a big turn off to me.  Once i was told that Satan speak to and through me, and this supposedly from my "friend" and poor young woman with a brain tumor who was rather unbalanced because of same.   Yet, i was open hearted enough to attend TEC weekend retreat (teens encounter Christ) when 21 on the recommendation of my younger brother who is likewise very open minded and hearted, intuitive, liberal, kind of "New agey", but also deeply loves and respects Yeshua, his life and teachings.   I met that friend there, who later called me Satan influenced because of my unusual and nondogmatic beliefs.

 So yeah, i completely understand where you are coming from, but like i've said, i've probably had it much easier than yourself in that regard.   I've become aware of another life self of mine which is very highlighted in my psyche, and he grew up and lived in the deep south for much of his life during the early 1900's.   He was very religious from the get go, but eventually (and thankfully!) became more open minded and heartedly spiritual in orientation (actually, he was always open hearted for the most part).    

 This life has left somewhat of a bitter taste for dogmatic religion in my mouth/subconscious beyond my current experiences.

 Have faith, the full and whole, and less distorted Truth (based around Oneness) will eventually shine through to all on this little rock!  Just may take awhile and a lot of challenge and testing inbetween to get there, but it will i'm quite sure. :)

  If you're ever up in Va, we should have lunch or dinner sometime.

Well, that's really it, isn't? The bitter taste of Dogma. I guess for most of my experiences with people's impressions of Jesus it has always seemed to lead them ultimately to that dogma that makes it so hard for me to advance in conversation with them. I think the wisdom of the Christ light has permeated everything and every voice, but when our egos of either fear or fearlessness gets in the way we lose our way... I know I do. It's like a road that I know I have traveled before in some other time and I genuinely feel I have brought back something else with me this time. I haven't fully defined it yet, but I'm pretty sure most of the time of what it isn't...now by that I don't mean that such a dogmatic path will not eventually lead to the OM, but like I said before, some paths are longer...or at least different. The Oversoul is experiencing through all of us and I feel there is no need to be hasty, but at the same time I don't want to lose ground. I often hear christians down here say "why bother with all that, just accept Christ as your personal savior and you don't have do anything but live as the bible says." Then I look at where the Bible has lead humanity and I just have to wonder, you know? I have an enormous respect for Christ as I understand Christ, but I'm not looking for a short cut. Everything still evolves...even the message, but I have to keep coming back to the Golden Rule. I can't say I always follow it but before the day is over each day I am aware of it and I press on. There is too much masculine energy wrapped up in the character of Jesus in the stories...not in what he says or how he acts, but in how his words and actions effect others. I think that is because the scriptures were written by men with an agenda. All the fear inducements and follow the leader, but they are really asking that you follow the rules in the Bible or so it seems to me. Don't mistake me here, there are marvelous passages as we all know...brilliance in fact, but It's not important to my growth whether Jesus performed miracles. What's important to me is that he understood that there can be no separation of one to another. We all swim in the same universal pond. The Light reaches you. It just does and it's not meant for everyone to be reached in the same way. The Golden Rule for me is where the source lives. If I could come to the understanding that it necessitates there would be only bliss....but I'm not sure I'm ready for total bliss yet, you know? But I get that anything done to another is done to me and Jesus is not asking me to go to war with anyone. That is wrapped up in that fear mentality of the Bible and the Koran and really any doctrine that is taken for the word of God. I say it's all the word ultimately because the ability to communicate comes from that same source. Even doubters are on their path and it used to get under my skin when someone said, "I think we just die...we cease to exist". Because I can't comprehend that at all and I'm sure you find that to be the case or we wouldn't be here, but if there is only ONE then it's either on or it's off...I say it's on and our lives prove that...even if we are living in an illusion, which is entirely possible to me. Well so much for these stream of conscious ramblings.

I don't get up to Virginia very often but I certainly will if Bruce holds a workshop there. I hope we can meet up sometime. That would be very cool. It's great talking with you. I can clearly see that your impressions of Yeshua are quite different from the ones thrust on me over the years.

Beau

Seth in Seth Speaks, recounts he was a spice merchant in Denmark, and that was where he met Ruburt (Jane Roberts) and Joseph, Jane's mate in this life. He had lives as monks, and one as a pope and a victim of the Spanish Inquisition. female lives are, Dutch spinster, courtesan at time of the biblical David, several lives as a humble mother with children. He is an entity, not an aspect of Jane/Ruburt. Jane had to attend out of body preparation classes while her body slept at night, to learn how to channel Seth; not everyone has the temperament for this kind of work. I believe there was an agreement between her and Seth, to do the work.

We each maintain our individuality from life to life.
and this is a belief system planet. it is a duality based planet. Without a belief system, there is basically nowhere to go from there, without some sort of belief system to start from.  since it is duality based, some are said to be wrong, some are said to be right, and yet we learn from Monroe, there is no right, there is no wrong. Whatever your belief system is, it will cause you to perceive FROM that belief system, that will be your perception. Perceiving something is not knowledge. a perception is only a perception and is not proven correct or incorrect.
True knowledge can only be demonstrated before it becomes true.

that is why we teach the very thing that we need to learn.

Religion is a belief system. The Christ light is beyond all belief systems, and is within all persons, but basically unrecognized until the person does examine their own belief system, by living the belief system out, and proceeding to the next more comprehensive belief system level.

Seth is asked this question on page 293 of Seth Speaks, the Eternal
Validity of the Soul; Was the statement correct, given by Jane, while speaking for you, that there have been millions of speakers? Or was this distorted?

Seth answers: It was not distorted. The speakers are gifted according to their own characters, some having far more abilities than others, but all having playing roles in the communication of inner data. In your terms, therefore some speakers would be much more accomplished than others. For example, there have been a far smaller number of truly prominent speakers than the number given.

There have been less than 30 great speakers. The Christ entity was one. The Buddha another. These speakers (the 30) are as active when they are nonphysical as they are when physical. The Christ entity had many reincarnations before the emergence of the Christ personality as known. So it is true of Buddha.

The greatest speakers do not only translate and communicate inner data, but also go much further into these inner realms of reality than others connected with your physical system. They add, then to the basic inner data.
At another level Emerson was a speaker. a man named Maubundu, in Africa, 14 B.C. are several speakers. They are still active in between lives with ELS.

question number four: Is it possible to name or describe a first speaker?
Seth: In greater terms, there was no first speaker. Imagine that you wanted to be ten places at once; and that you actually sent one portion of yourself to each of these 10 places, and that each of these portions were conscious, alert and aware. You, being the 10 of you would be aware of existence in each of the 10 places.
(Bruce is reporting experience of being in more than one place, at this time, because we are able to do this)

Continuing with the speakers; Speakers do not originate in the locations or time periods in which they manifest.

I'm enjoying the conversation Beau and Justin. thank you!

regarding differing kinds of ressurrection, since the body is not real nor eternal, I do not believe Jesus died, not in the sense that we think of death. We often think of this speaker as suffering, painting pictures of him with a thorny crown. A speaker has learned to circumvent suffering, they come and go as they wish from the vehicle of the body.
In Jesus's case or Yeshua as Justin calls him, is probably the more accurate name, I still believe he could transmute his body into pure light at will and this would be a truer ressurrection concept.

In addition more NDE reports are coming in. Where monitoring the body for life signs shows none. and the spirit is able to make a new decision to come back into the body.
I believe as examples for us, to show on a basic level, we are more than the body, that it is the soul which animates the flesh, and that consciousness came first, the body second.

It's interesting that you or Seth use the word Speaker. I think that's very important. I believe there are many with the understanding who never say anything. They simply wish to observe and serve another time around. And perhaps all the 30 great speakers are the same persona. Ultimately it seems to me that that's where we are headed. As the universe spreads out the consciousness grows closer together and the evolving of consciousness represents the physical metaphor for the expanding universe. I like metaphors a lot, but I'm often told that I use them too much and it can get confusing...well, I'm sure I'm the one who is confused when it happens. I like to be clear, but I find that when I start writing about this stuff it kind of takes on a mind of its own, which is nice too. I don't know much about Seth. I've run across some excepts on other websites and I've seen the name come up a few times in here.

As far as the belief system planet and duality, I think any physical existence has duality. To rise above the duality and be able to see the completeness of the ONE even when faced with the illusion of separation and duality is one goal I find perplexing and also attainable in short bursts. Each time I can feel it my whole life begins to reflect back to me what I've learned and be a constant reminder to help me get thru those down turns that are inevitable after the shock of oneness leaves and I have to get up and brush my teeth or whatever. Those moments are certainly a gift, but one that I strove for for such a long time, but did it without guidance for a long time and it made some folks in my life very nervous. This animal that I'm trapped inside is still weird to me. It craves things I do not understand, but I feel the same way about the spirit too. I guess I'm still playing the middle man most of the time.

Thanks for your post Rain. I hope to hear more from you.

 Nice post Alysia, overall i do agree with much of it.   I do have a theoretical question for you though.  

 Say there was a particular and supposedly channeled source which twisted and misrepresented some of the very core teachings and meaning of a great spiritual teachers life and example.  Would you say it would be loving, or wise to promote very positively and repeatedly such a source if this was true?

 I don't need an answer really, but just thought it was a good question to pose to you.  

You weren't directing this at me, Justin, but I would have to say that no channel is infallible. Because no receiver is infallible. I would have to say that a channel that is purposefully distorting the truth makes the truth more elusive but still not unknowable. These battles or discussions over who's right and who's wrong are how we wound up further and further separated. To tell someone their source is wrong or misinformed can cause great damage to someone who is reaching for the light or just unnecessary animosity. I think there was a time for defending the honor of our sources but perhaps that time has passed and now is the time for acceptance. And of course, that doesn't mean agreement. And if a source has no acceptance within it then perhaps that is something that needs further looking into. One thing I've learned is that you can't beat people over the head with what's true and have a friend at the same time. I say it's not my job to keep so and so on the right path and it's not my job to defend truth as I find it. "When you know, you know"--John Lennon. So in answer to the question I would say the answer is no. Better to share from your source without defending it, because defense will mostly be taken as an attack. That's just the nature of it.  If it is truth it needs no defense. Discussion it seems to me does not have to be a defensive technique. When I started this, I thought it was a pretty good answer, but as I'm finishing up I'm not so sure. But that's how I feel about it. Otherwise you end up running people off and that isn't really productive either.--just my two cents :)

We are stardust, we are golden...and we've got to get ourselves back to the garden.....

in the words of an old song that is playing in my head.

Love you all, blink

 Hi Beau,

 I made my reply to Alysia, about as nice, diplomatic, and gentle as i possibly could make while still disagreeing with her subtly and hoping she might question certain preconceived notions.  

U wrote,
Quote:

You weren't directing this at me, Justin, but I would have to say that no channel is infallible. Because no receiver is infallible.

Very true, and something i oft point out, even about the sources i trust a lot, and also about myself.  As i said earlier in this thread, since i'm not yet completed as per Monroe's terminology, take the following info with a grain of salt.   I also always say its a much better idea to instead of just completely believing in outside sources, to go within and hook up to the highest within self, to get the truth.   Particularly in deep, still meditation.  

U wrote,
Quote:

If it is truth it needs no defense

Rather i would say, the truth needs no negative, hurtful, and unloving defense.  Whether an action, a deed, a speaking to others is spiritual and constructive, or not so, depends more on the inner intents, motivations more so than anything.  I can assure you that unless you are a near or completed being yourself, and can fully and totally read my heart/mind, you cannot say what this is or not for sure.  All i can tell you is that from my perspective, that my intentions and motivations are of the highest and most loving.  

Back to the above, was my reply to Alysia negative, belittling, hurtful, and unloving in nature.   People cannot ever disagree with or question others about anything?

 If the truth never needed defense, and never WAS defended by the likes of Yeshua, Susan B. Anthony, Gandhi, Martin Luther King Jr., and various others who stood up to and spoke out against the mistruths of their relative times, just think of how this world would be with just a super passive and blase saying leading the way.   Truly would this world be a much, much darker place without the like of such outspoken and truth defending people.  People who vocally disagreed with the beliefs of the times, despite that no doubt those beliefs were clung to and "sacred" to those people who erroneously held them.  You know, things like slavery is ok because black people aren't really human.    

 The important part is that the above people did defend the truth, and they did so well because they did it in a more positive and nonjudgmental of the actual people who held those beliefs way.  There are ways to defend the truth, and to actively promote same which don't involve putting others down or judging the person.  It alright to judge things and beliefs, but not spiritual or loving to judge people themselves.   I was not judging Alysia, but i'm judging the veracity and helpfulness of a source she has for some reason been lately promoting a lot.  

 Subtle to see at times, but important and big difference imo.  

wrote on Dec 22^nd, 2008 at 12:52pm:

We are stardust, we are golden...and we've got to get ourselves back to the garden..... in the words of an old song that is playing in my head. Love you all, blink

 Why ever the need for guides and teachers in their various nonphysical, physical, inbetween, etc. forms?   Why the need for Yeshua and Buddha and their material lives?  

 If we humans relied only on ourselves, boy would humanity be really, really, really stuck even more so than now.  Maybe our general stuckness and our inablitity to see our way out of it is why there are so many guides/teachers who are so active in all levels to do with the Earth.  

 And why, oh why Blink for the instructive above post and reply???
;)  ;D

 Contradict self much?   Who are you trying to get back to the garden with your post?   I sense your positive intentions, and i appreciate them and you much for it, but i don't have to agree with you, and i think its ok for you to disagree with me and for me to disagree with you.  

Okay, The truth of Human Rights needs defense. But I am not talking about that. I was, and I thought we both were, talking about spiritual growth. Perhaps you view all these things as one, and if so then my point is mute. A good defense does not a truth make. That's really my point. And we're not really talking so far off base from each other. My emphasis would be on the word "needs". It needs no defense. In other words I would have to ask how much of the defense is of the ego...I'm only making a point and not by any stretch meaning to offend here. We've only just started our dialogue, I think you know that. I struggle with these questions everyday and your opinions I value.

 Beau my new found friend, can you not see the irony and contradiction in the message of your posts on this thread when compared to your actual actions themselves?

 You got on a thread started by someone else, to essentially disagree with the thread and the thread starters messages repeatedly (no, that's not all that happened, but it seemed to be a big focus of yours all in all).   Yet, no one, including the thread starter himself, ever told you that you shouldn't do that.  Instead, open hearted and minded dialogue and light hearted debate ensued.  

 Just as Blink was trying to "teach" me that we are the ones who get ourselves back to the garden.  If that was completely true and the only part of it, then there wouldn't ever been any need for any kind of outside guide or teacher.  What need for her trying to "teach" me that, if true?

 The only difference between you, Blink and i is that i'm not saying one thing and doing another.  I think it's quite alright to question and even speak out against another's beliefs on occasion if that is done more so positively and level handed.    No, it shouldn't be the main focus of anyone's activity.  The best "teaching" is ultimately done by pure example and vibes, but we are on a discussion forum that requires primarily written words to communicate consciously.  

 Anyways, continue to disagree with my points and point out my errors, i'm quite alright with it and still very much love you, Blink and all here. ;)    That's what its about, seeing and concentrating on the best in others, even when disagreeing their beliefs and perceptions.   As i've said repeatedly, i sense positive intentions in both you and Blink, and appreciate you both taking the time trying to show me a better and higher way.   But your truths, aren't necessarily the ultimate truths, as you seem to be saying to me as well.  

Btw, i plan on going to Bruce's workshop if he ever does one here, so look foward to meeting you and others here in person.  I've so far only met Albert in person.  

I was answering your question because I thought it was a good one. I don't have an answer for a higher road. Just putting out my thoughts. I don't think you are wrong. As I said, I was just answering your question. No worries, mate. I don't know where the thread started anymore, you're right about that for sure  ;)

I think, Justin, that you really don't understand me. But that's okay.

I'm really really really really really not interested in this kind of conversation.

And, it's really really really really not all about you.

the end, blink


wrote on Dec 22^nd, 2008 at 2:38pm:

Beau my new found friend, can you not see the irony and contradiction in the message of your posts on this thread when compared to your actual actions themselves?  You got on a thread started by someone else, to essentially disagree with the thread and the thread starters messages repeatedly (no, that's not all that happened, but it seemed to be a big focus of yours all in all).   Yet, no one, including the thread starter himself, ever told you that you shouldn't do that.  Instead, open hearted and minded dialogue and light hearted debate ensued.    Just as Blink was trying to "teach" me that we are the ones who get ourselves back to the garden.  If that was completely true and the only part of it, then there wouldn't ever been any need for any kind of outside guide or teacher.  What need for her trying to "teach" me that, if true?  The only difference between you, Blink and i is that i'm not saying one thing and doing another.  I think it's quite alright to question and even speak out against another's beliefs on occasion if that is done more so positively and level handed.    No, it shouldn't be the main focus of anyone's activity.  The best "teaching" is ultimately done by pure example and vibes, but we are on a discussion forum that requires primarily written words to communicate consciously.    Anyways, continue to disagree with my points and point out my errors, i'm quite alright with it and still very much love you, Blink and all here. ;)    That's what its about, seeing and concentrating on the best in others, even when disagreeing their beliefs and perceptions.   As i've said repeatedly, i sense positive intentions in both you and Blink, and appreciate you both taking the time trying to show me a better and higher way.   But your truths, aren't necessarily the ultimate truths, as you seem to be saying to me as well.   Btw, i plan on going to Bruce's workshop if he ever does one here, so look foward to meeting you and others here in person.  I've so far only met Albert in person.