The other day while I was "out" exploring I came upon a BST which seemed indistinguishable from 3-D reality, what Monroe called C-1 consciousness. People there were rather living out fantasies rather than reality, and there was a lot of deception and selfish money-driven behavior going down.

And the thought occured to me, isn't that rather like C-1? How do we know this is not a BST we are stuck in...  after all it is a dream, an illusion. Are we in some hollow hell? It sure seems like it sometimes, no? And how would we know, at least until we awaken? Isn't that what we do when we pass from our illusionary bodies?

Thomas

Thomas,

Remember that there is a lot of other 'physical' reality like our. With differents rules and experiences.  

To know for sure that this is not a BST, I guess it takes more data and a lot of observations and experiences.  

TG--- explaine BST please. -- cat

The thing about our physical reality is that there are almost an infinite amount of beliefs held by residents here, some differing greatly, others very similar.  My understanding of BSTs is that all beings residing in them share the same belief, which is simply not the case here.  It seems the only beliefs shared on this planet are the basic ones, such as we are in a physical reality on a planet in a solar system, we are governed by the laws of physics, we are biological creatures alive for a certain amount of time, ect... The beliefs that make BSTs BSTs vary greatly here, making your theory rather unlikely.  But that would be crazy if it were true!

I Am Dude wrote on Nov 13^th, 2008 at 1:40pm:

The beliefs that make BSTs BSTs vary greatly here, making your theory rather unlikely. !

This makes me wonder...what are the beliefs that make BSTs BSTs?It's impossible(isn't it?) for creatures who live in a BST to share the exact same beliefs on every subject.Aren't the 'basic' beliefs you mentioned before on your post perhaps all one needs to live in the same BST an another?

I believe physical reality was purposely set up so it would have more solidity than the astral realms. This solidity provides a unique learning platform.  If this solidity didn't exist, we might as well stick to the astral and mental realms as a way of learning. When we return to astral and higher realms our minds play a bigger role in what we experience.  We vibrate/think ourselves to another location, rather than walk, drive, or fly to another geographical location.

ChaosSpirit

Regardless of what dimension you travel, no individuals will have mirror image beliefs on every subject.  However, in the BSTs, there is at least one major limiting belief held by all which prevents further advancement, and this belief (or beliefs) will obviously differ from BST to BST.  The thing is, these BSTs are located in the nonphysical, and we are obviously in the physical.  Having the ability to project from our dimension to the dimensions of these nonphysical BSTs should be proof enough that we are not stuck in one of them, for we can move through each rather freely.  The basic beliefs I stated are necessary to have a meaningful experience here in this physical dimension.  

BST=Belief System Territory, invented by R. A. Monroe for nonphysical systems which attract (ex-physical human) persons of the same belief; used for more the closed-minded type of people/beliefs in difference to Focus 27.
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I think you're right on alltogether. It's a question of defining the term I'd say. From a vantage point with a far outlook it would be appropriate to call our physical system a belief system, and from another viewpoint the more particular meaning of "BST" might be more appropriate.

My experiences of BSTs (now in the narrow sense) are not really extensive, but one thing I noticed: Nowhere in the BSTs which I came across, it's like here when someone leaves: The dead body. In most cases, I've seen people just disappear when they leave a BST, and as far as I remember in one case there only was a quickly fading shell/form of a left inhabitant. Any other observations of this?

Spooky

[quote author=spooky2 link=1226584327/0#7 date=1226626821]BST=Belief System Territory, invented by R. A. Monroe for nonphysical systems which attract (ex-physical human) persons of the same belief; used for more the closed-minded type of people/beliefs in difference to Focus 27.
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Thanks, Spooky. I knew it was RA Monroe-- but it's been 10 years since I've read the books.  I'm getting rusty on all the acronyms.

This is how I understood the difference between C-1 and a BST (Belief System Territory).  As I am coming back from a meditation/subconscious or conscious travel, when I am aware once again of my surroundings--  that's the point at which I am now in C-1.
When I am traveling--- doing a retrieval  or IM ing  (imagining) or dreaming  that I am THERE --- I am in some type of a belief system. It may only be my belief alone, not shared with anyone else --- or sometimes I am visiting another being's belief. It depends upon the adventure at the "time".  
When I am phycically in another person's belief system-albeit a church, their home, their politics, etc, I am once again in C-1 but my "mind" or spiritual self may be, at the same instance-- in a BST.
Does that help at all?    Carol Ann

 I believe the physical is ultimately a BST, though not quite the same as the usual nonphysical BST's.  

 It may be helpful to think in terms of density/vibration differences and ranges, and Oneness against the play of individuality and differences.

 The physical is the most dense or slowest vibrating dimension.  Pure Spirit or pure Source awareness is the fastest vibrating awareness, and really is dimensionless because it is All Inclusive, and that which all originally sprang from in awareness.  

 Inbetween physical and pure Spirit are almost an infinite variation of shades, and ranges of vibration.   They are all connected though, and many of our Consciousnesses or "Discs" exist in the whole spectrum (some possibly don't) and the focus on one or the other, or on a combo, connects to the concept of time/space, especially when focussing on the slower vibrating dimensions.

The focus between any dimension or combo below that of pure Spirit sets up "relativity".  The slower vibrating the dimension one focuses in, the more time seems real and "set" or linear in nature.  Hence in the physical, in the slowest vibrating dimension, it seems the most "real", set, and linear in nature.

 On the seemingly opposite spectrum, of matter and Spirit, well they both have unique properties as compared to the middle shadings of the various other dimensions (which correspond to what most call the "afterlife").  

 Yet, i say "seemingly" because the physical, unlike Spirit, is temporal and thus really not a true "opposite".   It only seems that way temporarily.   All comes from pure Spirit, and eventually focuses completely back into pure Spirit.   That suggests that all the inbetween dimensions are ultimately illusionary in nature, because they are temporal in nature.  

 That means or suggest they are all belief system territories of one or another, but because the physical is the slowest vibrating one of them all, it has unique properties, just as Spirit has unique properties compared to all the inbetween.   Course these properties of the seeming "poles" are rather different in nature.  

 I believe the physical is both a creation of us erring Discs, but also with quite a lot of influence on part of Light beings who are now, fully and fully consciously working with Source and the purely Creative forces.    So, we manifested the extreme density or slow vibrating nature of the physical, whereas they have manipulated our reality to some extent, and perhaps are responsible for the unqiue properties of the physical awareness, and that unlike in the nonphysical, like doesn't immediately attract and beget like.  

  I don't fully know the answer to the last question/thought though.

Thomas, the same can be asked: Are we in a hollow heaven or a hollow physical body?  I say, yes. The paradox is: all three: hell, heaven and the physical are also a euforia. Most women who have birthed a child will say that the physical body went through a glorious hell to give birth to a enlightened child.  To me, the same would hold true once we discard the physical to enter another dimension.  Some spirits hold onto the "belief" that they need to be punished in the next dimension and create their own hell. Some, like the pope, will create the ultimate "religious" heaven. What's real here??
Justin has the best description of "shades" of reality. ---cat

Super thread, You-All ! (IMO  :) )

Thomas, can you go back there and seek out a city / grouping where there are landmarks that might correspond with sites we have here?  In other words, how closely would our BST mirror our C1? have you looped into a parallel place?

Is this 'comparison' causing trouble with our beleif systems?
I always thought it was 'others' that we visited.
If this is a truth being revealed now I believe that we are ready to hear it.

Thanks to All!

Bets

Good thread.  A couple thoughts I have...

One is, in a BST when someone just disappears as Spooky said, how do the other inhabitants there react to that?  In comparison, if someone here in this reality were to just disappear, imagine our reaction!

Another is, from my own experiences, I know that when I nonphysically travel, wherever I am very fully acutely consciously focused, that place becomes "physical" to me.  It feels physical in every way.  It all depends on how narrowly focused I am there.  (There are, too, nonphysical experiences that don't feel physical).  So, in a way, it might be easy to deduce that that is why physical reality, too, feels physical to us.  Because we are fully acute consciously focused here in this area of consciousness.  As a whole, we tend to give physical reality the credit of being a place that actually exists all on its own accord, and we just happen to be dropping by for a lifetime enjoying it here.  However, my belief is that this physical reality only exists because we make it exist, by our conscious awareness, belief, want, need, desire, etc.  It is here because of us, not for us.  Anyone have any thoughts on that line of thinking?  

Thomas,
i recall this theme coming up here a couple of years back, and i still feel the same.  C1 is a BST, and every astral plane is a hollow heaven once you've outgrown its parameters.
the only unchanging existence is the "uncreated"  "unmanifest" "radiant void" "godhead"  (take your pick of names), where we are points of golden light in a sea of golden light, blissed out with no desires or ambitions.
I believe the place you visited is one of the lower astrals, fairly dense and filled with egos chock and block with desire.  Were people flying there or doing any mental creation activity that you noticed?
Just curious.

best wishes, gordon



tgecks wrote on Nov 13^th, 2008 at 9:52am:

The other day while I was "out" exploring I came upon a BST which seemed indistinguishable from 3-D reality, what Monroe called C-1 consciousness. People there were rather living out fantasies rather than reality, and there was a lot of deception and selfish money-driven behavior going down. And the thought occured to me, isn't that rather like C-1? How do we know this is not a BST we are stuck in...  after all it is a dream, an illusion. Are we in some hollow hell? It sure seems like it sometimes, no? And how would we know, at least until we awaken? Isn't that what we do when we pass from our illusionary bodies? Thomas

Gordon wrote: "where we are points of golden light in a sea of golden light"

I like that, perhaps I'll steal it from you.  :)

Exploration of astral realms is too embryonic and self-contradictory to render value categories like “BSTs” philosophically meaningful.  For example, George Ritchie's NDE points to deceased alcoholics being drawn together on the basis of addictions and obsessions rather than beliefs.  Exactly what is the affinity that “magnetizes” souls with differing belief systems, personalities, interests, and desires together in the same plane?    Consider, for example, the concept of a thief’s hell.  Are thieves drawn together more by shared core desires than by shared beliefs?   Are thieves of the same hell motivated by their belief that other souls are chumps to be exploited by stealth, by the thrill of a well-designed caper, by their amusement at causing feelings of vulnerability in their victims, and/or by the strategic accumulation of goods?    Given the disharmony in hellish realms, are fundamentalists from various religions drawn together by certain types of conflicting psychodramas, by a shared vision of their preferred lifestyle, or by shared doctrines and beliefs?  In other words, are souls from totally different religious traditions drawn together more on the basis of “vibratory frequency” than personal religious doctrines?  

Or is the concept of confinement to one spiritual plane too limiting?  For example, are thieves who love sports or gambling drawn together on other planes with non-thieves with different vices on the basis of passion for such hobbies?  When astralnauts visit a thief’s hell, are they fooled by their own perceptual patterns?  For example, If an astralnaut has just encountered a thief, does this instill an unconscious expectation that other souls encountered there will also be thieves?  Does the patterning of perception bypass other types of residents in the same realm?  

The more general principle of like attracts like seems more satisfactory than the more specific category “BST,” despite the fact that the parameters of the term “like” are hauntingly vague.  I prefer Jesus’ way of characterizing the magnetizing principle: “Others will treat you as you treat them.  Whatever measure you use in judging others, it will be used to measure how you are judged (Matthew 7:2).”  But even this formulation cries out for more precision based on several different examples.

Don

Berserk

I think it is important to understand the relationship between desires and beliefs, because I feel there is more to it than you may believe.  I feel that our beliefs influence our desires, for it is our beliefs that form our realities in the first place.  An individual naturally would not desire something which was contrary to their beliefs- even if this belief is hidden from one's normal conscious awareness.  

I feel that we shed our physical ideas of reality the longer we are out of it, for it simply does not apply anymore... but say in the initial stages of nonphysicality when many inhabit BST's... I feel the specifics of the different religions only influences one's vibrational level to the extent one focuses on them.  

I believe that everyone and everything we encounter and experience is basically a reflection of an aspect of ourselves.  I have seen this to be true in my life, and of course it closely relates to the law of attraction, which applies in the physical and especially the nonphysical of which we are speaking.  The idea is to learn from these reflections and evolve to a higher level of being.

Quote:

However, my belief is that this physical reality only exists because we make it exist, by our conscious awareness, belief, want, need, desire, etc.  It is here because of us, not for us.  Anyone have any thoughts on that line of thinking?

Well, maybe, but "us" at which level of being? Us the individuals or us the discs?

There are two levels to this: the world at large and the personal world. Of course, the personal exists in the world at large.

Some say God or gods created the world at large, and some say we broke with God and did it ourselves. We at what level? Must be our discs.  

Whichever it is, it is obvious that there is some factor/factors in reality creation that we do not have control of (or control of yet). I don't know how to do a Big Bang thing and turn energy into matter. I also can't figure out the time thing, which is part of it all. Anyway, there seems to be some sort of scaffolding on which the personal rests.

Apparently, we get a bit of leeway with the personal stuff, though it seems to depend a bit on where in Time we land ourselves. Also, in addition to the basic physical scaffolding and the Time, there appear to be levels...what should we call them....C1, 1 to 10, and beyond. Once we come here and learn to visualize the scaffolding, we can go and create fact similes  (ok I know it is facsimile but I like that better)of the scaffolding, without the quality that makes it so solid in C1 (yeah we fax "pictures" of C1 to other levels and then play in them!)

But there is something about the way the C1 scaffolding is put together that allows us to have alot of variations in other qualities. So we do create our realities and various C1-BSTs, and we can alter the personal (at least in theory! sometimes that is a challenge!).

So far ;), this is what makes sense to me.

I believe it is largely a matter of how much we'll open to love. If we have beliefs that cause us to view others in a judgmental seperatist way, that'll limit how much we open to love, and we'll end up with spirits that have the same love level. It is also a matter of what our overall psychological makeup is.

If there is one person who believes in religion A, and another person who believes in religion B, and each person is equally judgmental towards others, despite their similar love level they won't end up at the same place, because they judge each other. Each will find a realm with the same love level, but different beliefs. First they will be attracted to their love level, and then segrate a little more according to their beliefs.

This doesn't mean that every person who is a member of religion A or B will end up in a corresponding belief system. If a person (spirit) is able to open up to love despite some of the dogmatic ideas of their religion, and if a person has enough openess of mind where he or she won't accuse a light being of being satan simply because this light being has viewpoints that are different than a person's religious beliefs, such a person won't need to go to a belief system territory where a period of adjustment has to be gone through. It isn't just a matter of what a spirit is capable of. It is also a matter of allowing a spirit to have the opportunity to take responsibility for its own growth and decide for itself when it wants to open up to a more love based way of being rather than a fear and judgment based way of  being.  

Many people have more than one aspect of mind.  Their strongest aspect (energetic) determines where they go.

I don't believe that spirits who aren't able to move towards the light always end up in an interactive belief system. There could be cases where they end up in an energetic level with souls with a similar energetic; however, they don't have a lot of awareness of these other souls. Instead, they keep recreating their own little dream Worlds. To the extent they are willing to reflect upon the parts of their body based life that caused them to end up in the realm they ended up in, to that extent they'll find a way to move beyond such a realm.

Quote:

Another is, from my own experiences, I know that when I nonphysically travel, wherever I am very fully acutely consciously focused, that place becomes "physical" to me.  It feels physical in every way.  It all depends on how narrowly focused I am there.  (There are, too, nonphysical experiences that don't feel physical).  So, in a way, it might be easy to deduce that that is why physical reality, too, feels physical to us.  Because we are fully acute consciously focused here in this area of consciousness.  As a whole, we tend to give physical reality the credit of being a place that actually exists all on its own accord, and we just happen to be dropping by for a lifetime enjoying it here.  However, my belief is that this physical reality only exists because we make it exist, by our conscious awareness, belief, want, need, desire, etc.  It is here because of us, not for us.  Anyone have any thoughts on that line of thinking?   Vicky

Hi Vicky and all,

I think you’re right on with what you say here.

Nothing is separated. We are individual consciousness within the whole of consciousness with the capability of consciously changing our focus by using our intent and freewill. Consider the possibility that what we call BST are really other worlds similar to earth. Right now our primary focus is ELS, yet we can during oobe, dreams, meditation, NDE, etc. change our perspective to focus on other realities that appear just as real as ELS. As you say when our intent is “fully acutely consciously focused” we experience these other physical systems to be just as physical as ELS. All we really did was change our focused consciousness from one physical world to another physical world. All physical worlds are really belief systems with just as much variation as ELS. Hence the reason everyone comes up with so many interpretations of what they see and interact with.

Also as you mentioned when we’re not quite as fully focused then these other worlds that are just as physical as ELS appear to be non-physical. In actuality everything is illusory in the sense that it is all in our mind, our consciousness. It’s all subjective to our personal consciousness. The only absolute that truly exists is God consciousness of which we are an individual aspect.

If the purpose of our existence is for the evolution of consciousness, then I’d say physical reality has evolved just as all other physical realities have evolved for us to further evolve not only our personal consciousness, but also to affect the greater whole of consciousness. What better scenario would give us greater learning experience than one that provides opportunity for cause and effect with feedback?

Say for example our evolutionary purpose is to grow in love. In ELS we’re learning about unconditional love by our experience of duality, which evolves meaning by a feedback process for the benefit of our individual consciousness. Perhaps as we grow toward and understand unconditional love our consciousness changes and our “being” actually becomes a purer love that radiates out to others in the form of a feeling. It’s interesting to think about the interconnectivity of us all and the possibility that all of our individual consciousnesses could eventually grow enough to radiate pure love throughout the whole of consciousness or at least in our interconnected web of this universe.

Kathy

It might be hard to accurately determine what non-physical reality is like when we are still connected to physical reality in some way.

I've had a number of lucid dreams and OBEs where I was conscious of being a person who is having a non-physical experience. On some occasions I made the point of trying to discern how real everything seems.

Visuall perception: Just as real as physical reality. On some occasions more vibrant.

Movement: More flexible than physical reality. I could float, fly and move in ways that are beyond my physical fitness and capabilities. There have been a few lucid dreams where I thought I was awake rather than being in a non-physical state, and was excited about how I suddenly had the ability to float and fly. I have never felt physical side effects while in a non-physical state. For example,  being out of breath, or a muscle feeling as if it is being strained.

Smell: Just a little bit, not anything like I smell while physical.

Taste: Just for a short period of time, never to the extent I experience while physical.

Sense of touch: Very little. For example, there have been occasions when I experienced non-physical kissing and/or sex. During such experiences I paid close attention to how the sense of touch felt. The sense of touch wasn't as strong as it is while physical. I believe I was able to experience the sense of touch while in a non-physical state, because my body's nervous system enabled me to do so. I figure spirit beings don't have a body's nervous system to make use of.  I figure the same type of neural interplay might be involved when I smelled and tasted things while in a non-physical state.

Conversations: Even though I hear some words while in non-physical states, I never hear them to the extent that I hear them while physical. Usually conversation is more a matter of knowing what was communicated, rather than hearing word after word. I figure spirits don't have vocal chords and don't make use of sound waves when they communicate. They communicate with thought.

Knowledge/understanding: I can understand things more thoroughly while in a non-physical state than I can while in a physical state.

Recoverer, you're welcome.  I'll be interested to see how you use it.

gordon




recoverer wrote on Nov 20^th, 2008 at 9:07pm:

Gordon wrote: "where we are points of golden light in a sea of golden light" I like that, perhaps I'll steal it from you.  :)

Hey everybody, just so you know, we are golden points of light in a sea of golden light. You can quote me on that. ;)

not bad recoverer, but i was really hoping you'd put it in a song.

gordon








recoverer wrote on Nov 21^st, 2008 at 7:45pm:

Hey everybody, just so you know, we are golden points of light in a sea of golden light. You can quote me on that. ;)

For me, the uniqueness of C1 includes the spectrum of different individuals that inhabit the same envirnoment.  Some of the most loving souls inhabit the same house, place of work, country, as do some of the most selfish or unloving.  Clearly, unlike the planes of pure consciousness, the rule of like attracting like is subtly changed on earth.  We DO attract things into our lives, but we are able to see, speak with, and interact with souls on all spiritual levels of development.  We also seem to lose our ability to interact freely with telepathy, and in C1 we do not create our environment by merely thinking about it (as has been reported in Focus 27).  

I'm not sure what I think about the term Belief System Territory.  Some heavens are likely created by a group consciousness belief (Islamic heaven, Jewish heaven, christian heaven), however, everything I've experienced tells me that spiritual growth and existence is less dependent on cultural beliefs associated with any religion, and more on the expression of love for each other and for God.  As such, the idea that people would be in a BST based on an earthly religion rings false in the sense that the community would need to be at the same level of vibration for love.  If they are, then they could choose to worship within the cultural beliefs which they prefer.

I think Don's question about the misinterpretation of astral explorers of BSTs is a good one.  If you believe that all fundamentalist christians are misguided and dogmatic (for example), then you might imagine them all in their own BST.  Multiple verifications would be needed to know that our own "interpretor" was not responsible for what we saw while exploring focus levels or on an astral exploration.  

Is C1 a BST?  Not as defined, since there are multiple beliefs, and as I said before multiple levels of growth all interacting with each other.  If the question to us is which are of consciousness is "real," the discussion becomes moot.  Wherever you go, there you are (Buckarro Bonzai).  Reality is conscious awareness, be it in C1 or somewhere else.

Ultimately, if we can give up fears and attachments and act, feel and express love, there is likely a unity, present all the time that we finally experience, instead of this feeling of separateness.  At that stage, my guess is that there are no more levels of travel from one focus to another.  Perhaps that is the ultimate reality.

Matthew

DocM wrote on Nov 22^nd, 2008 at 11:06am:

Is C1 a BST?  Not as defined, since there are multiple beliefs, and as I said before multiple levels of growth all interacting with each other.  If the question to us is which are of consciousness is "real," the discussion becomes moot.  Wherever you go, there you are (Buckarro Bonzai).  Reality is conscious awareness, be it in C1 or somewhere else. Ultimately, if we can give up fears and attachments and act, feel and express love, there is likely a unity, present all the time that we finally experience, instead of this feeling of separateness.  At that stage, my guess is that there are no more levels of travel from one focus to another.  Perhaps that is the ultimate reality. Matthew

Rings true, and surely something to be thankful for.

love, blink

Matthew:  

"Is C1 a BST?  Not as defined, since there are multiple beliefs, and as I said before multiple levels of growth all interacting with each other."

Gordon:

Yes C1 has multiple beliefs, in a religious, political and philosophical sense; but we share some assumptions about the essential nature of three dimensional physical reality which bind us together in relative illusion, parameters that we believe cannot be overcome (ie matter is solid, we need food to survive, sex is essential, learning valuable, war inevitable, competition and greed natural,  the dead non-existent in "real" terms, money and real estate "real", humans are limited bodies,   (list goes on)

these details and others define the parameters of our illusion regardless of religion etc., and place us firmly in the belief system territory mode as far as I'm concerned.

gp

Quote:

we share some assumptions about the essential nature of three dimensional physical reality which bind us together in relative illusion

I agree with this and can't disagree with the list but I think theremust be some deeper level of assumption going on...well the food and sex are hardwired into the system (bodies) to some degree.  I think we can't really know who we are without understanding this. Without understanding why we get here and this all seems so...forgive me, for want of a better term, seems so real. So real that while we are here it seems self-evident unless/until we learn somekind of transcendence.

Is it useful to start examining this at one of the less obtuse levels? I just came across a book on money by a couple of Buddhists. Their initial premise is relevant to understanding what happens here in C1.

"Money is an almost magical invention....today we use tatty green pieces of paper as money...Long ago, ..people used wampum...cowry shells..Roman soldiers used salt. Prisoners favor cigarettes...What do these currencies have in common? You can carry or otherwise transmit them, they won't perish quickly, and one piece is very much like another. But the crucial common factor is that societies decided to believe that these things - perhaps of little or no worth in themselves - have value. That's an extraordinary, hugely beneficial act of imagination, a shared illusion that underpins our civilzed world. No money: no civilization. What would your life be like if you, with your family, had to do everything yourself?...This is money - a triumph of mind over the material world."  from Mindfulness and Money.

It seems to me that those shared illusions that underpin our civilized world are what Thomas was asking about. or Thomas were you asking about that deeper level where energy becomes matter? something outside the realm of civilization.

I was asking in general, at either level. I agree with Gordon that we are bound by parameters which amount to beliefs: gravity, sex, eating, etc.. But there are poeple who have levitated, who are celibate (through choice not chance), and who consume neither food or water.

I have explored what Bruce calls the BSTs, and found several almost indistinguishable from C-1, and they also seemed (to use that term) real to the extent I could feel the sun on my cheek (sun? cheek?) and hear birds chirping (birds? ears?). A Course in Miracles workbook starts with the lesson: Nothing I see means anything. Remember singing, "Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream?" Well, what I am saying is that life IS a dream. And just like when we seem to awaken from dreaming in the moring, we will awaken from this waking dreams as well. This point, the nature of reality, is what A Course in Miracles is all about. Who cares where it came from? Isn't The Bible really channelled material, too?

And ALL of this seems based on the supposition that we are our physical bodies, and that this C-1 physical consciousness has intrinsic value and "it" must be real because our senses can define it. We are more than our senses (x-rays, infrared, radio waves, etc), and more than our bodies (isn't that the point of OBE?). But it is those very beliefs which I mean: our formative suppositions, or sponsoring thoughts.

I think C-1 is the way it is because that is the way we have conceived it, just as Focus 27 is the way it is because that is the way the energies there have conveived it. It all seems like thought form to me, either on 27 or in C-1, just denser here.

And finally, some of the others here seem pretty darn crazy to me.....

By the way, thanks everyone for your thoughts on this. If we are really making it up, can't we make it a loving dream? I think this is what is happening with the "Earth Changes," but that is another thread which no one seems to want to talk about. It was those changes and very times we are experiencing which drew me to the work, not really retrievals (though they are fun and fill the time).

Thomas

The term belief system territories (BST) was coined to describe people living in the afterlife under common ideas or religious beliefs.  They have appeared to explorers in focus levels just below focus 27.  

Physical reality does seem to be based only in part in shared beliefs.  In spirit, thought is often immediately turned into reality.  On earth, you can take someone who doesn't believe in gravity, and tragically, they will learn the truth if they jump from a building.  So there are certain constructs in our physical world that are independent of any individual's belief.  Various laws of the universe exist, and with intent, I have found that while some may be "bent," they are not broken.

The law of attraction works in much subtler ways here than in spirit.  Wishes usually don't come true.  Beliefs that are deeply ingrained in our subconscious do, usually attract circumstances to us, and change the laws of probability so that we attract into our lives that which we most believe and need.  It takes careful introspection to see this.

So my answer, the one that works for me, is that C1 is not a BST as described by Monroe and Moen.  I will not deny that shared beliefs do form certain parts of our world - this is how consciousness works to some extent.  It does appear, as has been mentioned here that we are "hard-wired" for sex, hunger, and certain other ways of functioning.  These are not arising from shared beliefs alone, because that would imply that if every living human being changed their beliefs, these facts of physical life would disappear.  Or on a microcosmic scale, that any individual could overcome physical laws by unlearning this belief system.

No, to me, it seems that there has been some construction involved in C1 that we may agree to participate with, but that underpins this type of existence.  Think of the human body, the construction, the functionality, the way our bodies work and regulate blood flow, the heart lungs, and the rest.  Evolution can only account for part of this; there is clearly something more behind it.  It is not merely that we all believe it to be true; it operates whether we believe in it or not.


Matthew

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I have explored what Bruce calls the BSTs, and found several almost indistinguishable from C-1, and they also seemed (to use that term) real to the extent I could feel the sun on my cheek (sun? cheek?) and hear birds chirping (birds? ears?). A Course in Miracles workbook starts with the lesson: Nothing I see means anything. Remember singing, "Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream?" Well, what I am saying is that life IS a dream.

This sort of touches on something I can't figure out how I want to think about. I always get stuck with the "fact" that this reality feels so real! If this is an assumption, it happens at a much deeper level than, say, assuming there is a money system. I don't know how to get beyond this being convinced by the evidence of my senses. Intellectually, I can, but experientially, I can't.

I was struck by something that Thomas-Mellon benedict wrote and I have seen expressed elsewhere. As he had an NDE, he realized:


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Being out of my body was even more vivid than ordinary experience. It was so vivid that I could see every room in the house, I could see the top of the house, I could see around the house, I could see under the house.

OK so there goes the criteria of feeling "real."

But I don't know how to choose to get to the place where Benedict was so I can experience for myself. It is comforting to me to think that, as real as this place seems, there might be a place that seems even more real. or is it a fallacy to confuse "real" and "vivid" in this context? (woops my intellectual side took over.  ;D  )

Now recently I was reading something else and the author was discussing methods of meditation. She spoke about using the technique of watching your breath because your breath is the one thing that you know will be there. (True as long as you are alive). That puts one back at the level of the senses for defining reality. But focusing on breathing is a time-honored technique. So I assume that means you can learn about what is beyond C1 by focusing on something that is intrinsically tied to C1.

This discussion isn't just an intellectual exercise to me. I'm always looking for practical applications. It seems useful to have a definition, or at least an agreement, about how C1 might basically differ from other realms. It does seem to be a scaffolding on which to hang our many other created endeavors. But sometimes it is diificult to say where the real limits are.