If you give somebody PUL, but that person does no understand how to behave better, is PUL just a fragment of the solution?

I mean, to be PUL, you should built an intention of PUL?
So you should know how to built intention.

Then you should know how to behave according to PUL.
How do you know what is right to do, through every circumstance.

Then when you built PUL, if you still got FEAR(S), the PUL is weakened.
So you should know how to deal with FEAR, which is another element.

I still do not know enough about this.

(Somehow, I know that what I really want, is you to repeat the same things (with new things) all over again untill I got it, in the depth.)

Sonia

:) Hi Sonia. Thats a very big question in a few words I think. As ever how you see this depends on view. Here's one:

This world is inherently a dog eat dog and impermanent environment, and in that situation there's inherently suffering involved in life/survival. (if nothing else there's aging, illness, climate, natural threats, the need to eat other living things  and so on)

That said selfish and egotistical behaviours account (along with our typical ignorance of how to live wisely) for much of the suffering we experience - living with wisdom and compassion (through love) can eliminate much of this. Buddhism is clear that this is important in giving us the space required to see that there is a path to escape. (one by which it can be transcended)

Both Buddhism and ACIM teach that in the end we must stop reacting aggressively to what life and others seem to do to us - ACIM uses the term forgiveness, Buddhism talks about caring but not caring - equanimity. Both because by not doing so (by lashing out even if only mentally) we in effect make real the world and its nastiness in our minds. At the physical level our actions in lashing out make the reality we each experience.

This seems a lot more logical if we can accept that both what we take as ourself (our body and conscious mind) and the world are actually creations of our own mind and ultimately unreal - we project as apparently external that which we fear and dislike, so that when we lash out at it we're in effect attacking ourselves. (this is also the reason why universally loving behaviours towards all are the only way - we're in effect loving ourselves)

This however is only a part of what we're about, there's no heaven possible in this reality.

Escape from this reality requires that we awaken from the dream, that we cease to be taken in by its appearance of reality. It's in fact the work of ego, which out of fear wants us to remain separate from God/higher mind. To achieve this we must stop the above lashing out, as this gives it reality in our minds. At the physical level it creates suffering for all, and drives us deeper into the dream.

Hence the need for the forgiveness ACIM talks of - 'it never happened'.

The eventual transcendence of this reality makes possible our return to God, Heaven,  the reality where all is joy and love or whatever you call it.

Getting there is another matter, and no small task. It's in fact the work of many, many lifetimes. We have to transition from unconsciously digging ourselves deeper into the dream, to deciding there must be another way, to starting to see intellectually that love is the way, to learning what this means in practice, to using willpower to try it out and gain experience, to eventually in a wise, compassionate and skillful way deploy love as our natural unthinking response, to eventually it's becoming the only response we're capable of.

At which time we wake up, and with the dropping of our belief in this reality it falls away.

All 100% in opposition to our conditioning and the prompting of society and our instincts.

No easy task. We all get there in the end it seems, but it's not the work of an evening, and it extends far beyond simple intellectual understanding (which counts for little). We become something else (or we rediscover what we truly are and always have been) - something far greater than a frail physical body and mind in a hostile world.

The most effective means of speeding the process up seems to be self work - with the assistance of Grace/higher mind, and while following one of the spiritual paths.

Sorry not to provide a simpler answer Sonia, or to respond directly to your questions. The good news is that your seeking spiritually suggests that you are probably well on the way - it's said that it's with conscious enquiry that our progress really accelerates.

Maybe you'd consider (if you are not already) working one of the spiritual paths - it's only over time that this stuff starts to become real....

Some people like to make it very very simple, Sonia.

What about a flower? Can you find one, put it in a vase on your table, and look at it?

What is more perfect?

If someone comes over, talk about the flower. Look at it.

If you go out, put the flower in your hair.

love, blink :)

Many words like me, a few words like Blink - there's stuff it's tough to communicate in words Sonia.

;) Here's references containing containing some clues, the Buddha's flower sermon is the quintessential expression of this - it gave rise to Zen which basically seeks to avoid the use of words in the transmission of spiritual teaching.

http://www.dallasmindfulness.com/zen_buddhism_taoism.htm
http://paulocoelhoblog.com/warrioroflight/06.02.2008/issue-n%C2%BA165-learning-from-flowers/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flower_Sermon

I guess it's all driving at the idea that there's an inexpressible something at work in a realised person - a person truly living through love.

We're inclined to think that loving intention, the resulting behaviours, and the courage to see them through all flow from intellectual understanding and conscious willpower.

Study, self work and commitment are certainly important while on the path, but the characteristics you describe are in the end when realised emergent and intuitive.

They arise fully formed in the person - intuitively and spontaneously from higher mind, from Spirit/Grace or whatever.

Our recent thread on the subject of theoretical vs. practical sprituality dealt with another perspective on this - the ineffectiveness of solely intellectual approaches to spirituality. It's mostly practical experience and self work that leads to emergence of the above: http://afterlife-knowledge.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?num=1223067594/0#0

thank you Ian for all your energy in your post. I wonder why Sonia hardly ever responds?

Sonia may not be reading the replies. sorry to point this out if it offends anyone. and the good thing to notice is that maybe a view out there (I'm sure) is benefitting, even if we don't know Sonia is, and I know the reason you put your energy here is, because you give of yourself freely without expectation of return.

that's the way I like to work too. I have no expectations that Sonia will respond to anything here. I wish to be proven wrong, but don't even have an expectation on that.

you do excellent work Ian. and I love this board.

LaffingRain wrote on Oct 26^th, 2008 at 8:32pm:

I wonder why Sonia hardly ever responds? Sonia may not be reading the replies. sorry to point this out if it offends anyone. ..... that's the way I like to work too. I have no expectations that Sonia will respond to anything here. I wish to be proven wrong, but don't even have an expectation on that.

Why do you wish to be proven wrong, Alysia?

What attitude do you expect from me.

If I did you or anybody wrong/hurt on this board, I'ld like to come to understanding about it, to do something about it.

But I want the change in ME to be real even if it takes me longer than what you would like.


LaffingRain wrote on Oct 26^th, 2008 at 8:32pm:

and the good thing to notice is that maybe a view out there (I'm sure) is benefitting,

--> I put this sentence here, because I don't really understand it.

I just wanted to add that the things you all write on this board matter to me, but I read it and think about it and assimilate it at my own pace and I don't always feel a need/urge to add any comment to what is written.

I probably do not thank you enough for all you do here, for me and many others.

Thank you Alysia for letting me know somehow how you feel about my attitude. That too, teaches me something about how I should care, and I feel grateful for that lesson.

Sonia

I don't think you should worry to much about answering if you don't feel you need to. What I do see.. is the possibility of a non completed communication cycle...If communication = something in the order of..the exchange of information, thoughts, or ideas, across a distance, between two or more idents... then without you answering or acknowledging it could be felt as the communication is not compleat. I know LaffingRain's ego has no need to get an answer. I think she was expressing a desire for completed communication. I have seen this many times.
Often, for instance with childern....mom...mom....mom....mom..untill finally... WHAT! All the child is really wanting is a completed communication. Acknowledgment of some sort.( I am not saying your childish!) Many time a lack of this uncompleted communication causes personality disorders. In order to receive acknowledgment when not received as a child, bad behavior can result. Its better to receive communication and acknowledgment for bad behaviour than no communication at all.(the child thought)
I wonder if PUL works the same way? If you don't receive an acknowledgment for the love you send out, do you start to open yourself to less than love, or the wrong sort of lovers/relationships in order to attempt to compleat the exchange?
anyways....
As for the PUL...have you felt it "here" yet? I know its strong "here". Although I communicate things at times that are not always appreciated, (nor appropriate for that matter) I always feel love energy here at this site. A "greater good" desire, from the participants.
Joe  

Hi Sonia I  feel love is just love,you can give love out but it does no t always mean you will get it back and that hurts but you just keep giving it out because in the end you are giving the love out from inside you,if i get my feelings hurt i learnt not to show it because i would never let on because if you let on then they have won ,so just smile and cry inside like i do,it makes life a lot better.

Love and God bless  love juditha

Isn't love sort of like your virginity? You don't just offer it out there for anyone to take a poke at it. To be taken and then thrown away like a dirty nose tissue. You offer it to the ones you love and care about. Those who make a positive difference in your existence. It saddens me when I read of those who don't feel love in their lives. I don't know, but perhaps their looking in the wrong place for it.

Sonia said: I just wanted to add that the things you all write on this board matter to me, but I read it and think about it and assimilate it at my own pace and I don't always feel a need/urge to add any comment to what is written.

I probably do not thank you enough for all you do here, for me and many others.

Thank you Alysia for letting me know somehow how you feel about my attitude. That too, teaches me something about how I should care, and I feel grateful for that lesson.
_____

Awhile back Sonia wanted to know all about love. the above what you just wrote has love bouncing off the words Sonia.
not the first part of your post. but what you ended up on, is a gift to me, to this board, because I am one who has been reading everything you post.
and so is Joe and Ian.

sometimes I just want a yeehaw or a go put it where the sun don't shine, anything, a comment to show you guys are not just figments of my imagination.
I'll tell you  what, my childhood taught me one thing of value to pass on: the worst offense is saying to another person, child, or animal, a non response, to not answer anything they say, or apathy. but that's my problem not yours.

I know how many hours it takes to  be on a forum, and I noticed Sonia does assimilate something, as she said she did. so I believe her.
However, it doesn't seem that you express anything that is connected to someone else's post. in what they have presented.

all of Sonia's posts are emotional appeals. I think I was looking here, on this board for more talk about Monroe's and Moen's books, and the concepts therein.
so u see it's back to my problem.

what I can do is stay in the book forum then as that is where I probably can get what I want, the stimulation I need. also I noted Ian said so much that is the same what I would say to Sonia, and two days had gone by, and no response on the ideas presented. if we are to be or develop a group growth concept, we do need to try and complete the circle of threads as best we can, like if you start a topic, I would reccommend to try and close it before starting up another one with the same exact content as the one that is not closed yet.

Joe, you show a remarkable intuitive grasp of human nature, bless you!

in conclusion, I somehow got what I wanted just now. Did you get something Sonia? I thought you did. something of an emotion, that is like PUL, perhaps a facet, the gratitude expressed is all that's needed.

I think I myself am far too long winded to stay on this board much longer however, at least on this general section.

lol. words are not enough anymore. love, alysia

I also find it frustrating when new folks come and ask questions that have been asked before...multiple times...and then don't respond to the responses. The title is "Conversation Board." A conversation is a dynamic give-and-take situation. It is an interaction. Then the new person will initiate many new posts without delving in the the first post, or any other post, completely. "Drink deep or taste not..."  It is gratifying to know that the responses have mattered. I always just assume they mean something to someone.

(reminds me of a story I heard about a radio psychologist on the West Coast. She always took each question seriously and answered to the best of her ability, even though some were clearly hoaxes. When someone asked her why she did that, she said, she knew some of the questions were made up problems. But she also knew that there was someone, some where, who had that problem and was too afraid to ask, and needed to know the answer. So she answered for that person.)

Of course, the problem is, there is no easy way to search the old posts for key words that would show someone what had been written previously on that topic. You'd have to have some sort of script that could search (parse?) the old posts, and they are all connected by links. Don't know how you search through links...except the old-fashioned way...one by one.

anyway I feel both sympathy and frustration. It is difficult to come to a new board. There always seems to be a new apect to a question to explore. but it gets frustrating being here.
___________________________

PUL

I have an entiely different concept of PUL. Please it is not something you dole out! it is something you experience.  You don't give love away! That is arrogant! you experience it and invite others to experience it too.

The only place to look for PUL is inside yourself.

This is difficult because we are taught from an early age that we shoudl look "out there" for everything.

I am in love with myself. I am (standing) in love.

Quote:

Then you should know how to behave according to PUL. How do you know what is right to do, through every circumstance.

What if the answer to this only exists in a non-verbal form? You can't use words to answer because the answer doesn't fit in words. And what if the answer is a process...spirit leading..you following? but no words.

Member unknown wrote on Oct 24^th, 2008 at 5:02am:

.... I mean, to be PUL, you should built an intention of PUL? So you should know how to built intention. Then you should know how to behave according to PUL. How do you know what is right to do, through every circumstance ...... Sonia

Hi dearest Sonia,
I find the answer within the word "PUL". Pure unconditional love. When something, anything is unconditional then there shouldnt be an expectation of anything, not even for the other person to behave a certain way, in return.

I believe PUL retains the energy of massive changing on its own terms. You give it and let it go do its thing without expecting it to do anything at all.

Its sort of like planting a wee seed. Once you place it into the ground you surely hope that it grows to be that flower, but you dont really know for sure that it will. So best is: plant the seed and let it grow to be what it wants to be.

Hugs,
Nanner

Nanner is repeating the essential point of my last post Sonia. Sorry if I  wasn't clear Nanner.

Loving behaviours are ultimately not a matter of intention, or of conscious knowledge. When fully integrated they are as I said emergent - the required wisdom and compassion are inherent in the person, and they just happen naturally.

I set out in my first post one possible route to this. From recognition of the need, through conscious intention to just being. This is the way those of us of a more intellectual bent can get there.

But many manage it without I suspect ever consciously intellectualising the intermediate steps as a result of life experience, and the assistance of spirit. Also without ever following a formally set out spiritual path.

We've all met those thoroughly non intellectual souls that in an almost entirely unconscious manner embody loving behaviours - it's just what they are.

Teaching and intellectual knowing are anyway in terms of the old Buddhist story only like the raft we can use to cross the river so we avoid a longer detour - no matter how useful it was at the time we must still leave it behind to get to our final destination

The destination is perhaps more radical than we at first realise - no more than per the title of Gary Renard's book 'the disappearance of the universe'.

Meaning that this universe and all its beings are the creation of collective ego. When we drop all of the beliefs it ultimately entails the entire reality collapses and we return to God. While we're still en route the result is simply a progressively less unpleasant reality....

[quote author=Sonia_Fielding link=1224838956/0#0 date=1224838955]If you give somebody PUL, but that person does no understand how to behave better, is PUL just a fragment of the solution?

Sonia,

Here is what I know: Say there is a child born with brain damage and all that child knows for his/her entire life is to be violent. That child had no means to comprehend the violence of his/her actions because of the brain damage received at birth. Would you deny that being PUL simply because of the physical condition that he/she agreed to when incarnating? That being may very well have been a high angel and/or an evolved spirit who chose to incarnate as a handi capped being just for that very reason as to see who is capable of extending PUL to him/her. Even if during this existance the being (or person, place or thing, animal,vegatbale or mineral)  cannot itself express PUL, it does not mean that it is with out PUL.  

Does that help clear up the question a little for you?  Much, Much love to you for a very interesting question.  cat

Absolutely vajra, absolutely! ;-)

Vajra wrote:
"We've all met those thoroughly non intellectual souls that in an almost entirely unconscious manner embody loving behaviours - it's just what they are."

Vajra, that is really the kind of state I would like to attain.

Alysia, thank you for what you wrote after my answer to responding posts.

Cat, thanks for the story about the child with brain damage. That's really the kind of paradoxal situation (loving angel incarnating in unloving child) that I like to talk about.

I would very much like that if anyone has a problem with my attitude or posting, to be pointed out what I do wrong. You can also tell me in PM if you want to avoid public posting. You are doing me a great favor by telling me anything that could be wrong, annoying, upsetting, irritating, etc, about my attitude because it is easier for me to improve myself when I get feedback. It is not a sign of love to let someone behave wrongly and say nothing. In other words, I very much like to stand corrected (before being punished) and if I ever deserve any kind of punishment here (social punishment exists as well, besides banning), I would very much appreciate to know why, so I can do something about it.

If you think I am ever getting off topic with a subject, just tell me and I will ask myself to be removed off topic.

I am sorry my posting is not about Monroe's books. I am currently reading Bruce Moen's books, but it is heavy information for me, so I am kind of slow. I understand I should keep on track with my subjects and I will try better.

Now, I will make you a summary of what I presently learned from you all on this board, that I thought is useful to me to improve my behaviour and state of mind (which are both connected, of course):
- Alysia, you told me that you create what you focus on. Well, I definitely intend on creating a lot of love for you, so I am going to focus on that. Thank you for your honesty which I greatly appreciate.
- You shouldn't search love outside of yourself, but inside of yourself.
- The action of love, or the action of PUL, creates PUL, but the action of PUL should come from the intention of PUL. eg. if you give PUL to use someone and throw that person away, it is not PUL.
- the strongest PUL comes from the intention of PUL that is given naturally and out of free will.
- you should seek PUL where there is PUL. If a person is fear-based and not love-based, you will not get love from that person or PUL, you will get fear, because it is its essence. Of course, if I only offer PUL to someone to get PUL back, it is not "unconditional", so it is not really PUL. Am I right?
I want to add that I came to the conclusion that a loving behavior is always best, but not if it stops you from being honest about less-loving-things that one tries to solve.
- Love and fear cannot be present at the same time eg. If I love this board, but fear to post, I am gonna have a real problem learning about PUL because there is a lot of PUL here.



Now, the get away from some negativity I might spread, and which I apologize for, I would like to tell you a success-story of PUL related to my personal experience:

It is the story about a 6-year-old girl who could talk to ghosts. The ghosts told her that there are consequences to everything, and that she was here to experience lack of PUL and the consequences of it, because she wouldn't be able to bear it.

Because she would have such a tough time with that lack of PUL (seeing the victims of it and everything related to it), out of reaction, she would seek twice harder PUL and every knowledge related to it.

She would seek knowledge about PUL and understand better why it works or does not work and than she would teach others the way.

That way, is to never fear to be who you are (love and fear cannot be together, remember), even if others do not understand. One day, they will come to understanding and she will help them to come to understanding as quick as possible because deep down, she really loves everyone.

Only on the surface, there is that difficulty to express love, which she is trying to learn.



Forgive me, if my flaws cause any emotional harm or discomfort to you. I am responsible and I am deeply sorry and if you have any useful advice, it is what I want. I work as quick as I can on myself. Writing and talking are (I believe) the most peaceful ways to solve problems and it is the way I chose, because somehow I want other people to learn with me a better way to be.

I am going to work very hard, is not the right way to say what I am doing.

I am working very hard, right now, to be...(make a guess at what I want to be)

I really love you all. I just want to love you even more and you most certainly deserve it. Everything I write is a cry for help to achieve that and I believe this is the right place to discuss such things. But again, if I am wrong about this or anything else, just tell me. I am open to any change(s) necessary.

Sonia

Hi Sonia-

You have a great attitude, please don't worry about what just one person happened to say.  It is definitely not representative of the other members.  You're a welcome addition to the conversation board!

Best wishes.

R

Sonia, You have no need to be disciplined here. Believe me, there is nothing you have said that is any worse than many of the rest of us. No need to be corrected as you have said nor done anything wrong. No need to be punished. As for getting banned...the guidelines are clear to everyone. In as long as I have been here I have only seen one poster be banned for but a short time. He's back and re-posting, evoking emotional responses, turning peoples realities up side down, and making us think outside of the box. I am personally happy to see him still here when others would have left with their tails between their legs. I am happy that you are willing to be informed if anyone has a problem with what you say. That shows me a willingness and an openness to except other opinions. That includes excepting love.
Now for you...if you ever want to get something off your chest. Let out some built up emotion. Freak out. You just feel free to drop me a PM. There is nothing you can say that will hurt me or my feelings. I doubt you could shock me. I may not agree to everything you say but I will always afford you the respect of listining. Now open your heart up and take this love offered to you right now. I know you have so much more to offer in return.

Rondele, Hawkeye,

Thank you both for your encouragements.

I realize to some extent that I put down many negative things and in that respect I understand the reaction of people who'ld rather hear positive.

My point of view on spirituality, equals that of a plumbing-system: If you have 100 pipes in your basement that guide the water correctly, but 1 pipe has a leak, no matter how much you focus on the good pipes, you will one day have to fix that leak, because you are flooded.
And if people come into your home, they shall not see the 100 good pipes, they shall notice the water in your home and how inconvenient it is.

I think the spiritual negativity I bring up, equals the water in the basement. What I really want is to fix that leak and I am seeking plumbing-classes to do it. I did not find anybody physically around me to help me out with my plumbing problems.

I think the people on this board, are better plumbers (spiritually spoken) than most of people I met and what I want is to be taught how to fix things practically.

Sonia

wow Sonia..u r rocking sweetie!

I think this whole board rocks. with PUL.  everyday I thank Monroe, TMI, and mostly Bruce and Rosalie for having the foresight to put this board up. that's why I say some things here, to keep us aware it's more than a party of sociable content, but a place to self express and share, and know that there is this thing called forgiving and forgetting, and we can get really good at, then all sorts of growth happens.
I'm amazed how many people have forgiven me stupid things I say here from time to time.

so I'm saying to you all, thanks for not beating me up when I myself got off the beaten track.

:-*

Sonia said:

- Alysia, you told me that you create what you focus on. Well, I definitely intend on creating a lot of love for you, so I am going to focus on that.
that's true. when I go obe I've been told by others here I am talking about focus constantly. it was good confirmation for me that what I do out there, I do here too! I see being focused as to be one-pointed in intention setting. I would rather you create a lot of love for all these people here and in the world. I don't like to attract attention to myself, but if I do, then I can learn from that too, from you and others who I am better.
___

Thank you for your honesty which I greatly appreciate.
___
same to you. I see you are displaying honesty yourself. we could be two peas in a pot? lol.
_____

- You shouldn't search love outside of yourself, but inside of yourself.
____
I think Nanner answered this marvelously about how love starts to be seen everywhere, as you focus on it in process. about teachers are everywhere. u r a teacher Sonia.
_____

- The action of love, or the action of PUL, creates PUL
_____
yes, we could say that thought itself is holographic, spinning off like thoughts, it builds to eventual release from binding belief systems.
_____

but the action of PUL should come from the intention of PUL
the intention is the most important initiator of spiritual evolvement, and we are all spiritual beings, no matter what beliefs we hold. the intention setting is what u r doing right now, as I see it. I call this the decision maker, (ACIM) or observer developing, (personal message) who eventually takes charge of the personality. sometimes I call it Spirit. Monroe calls it I/there.
_____
Pause here a moment Sonia: just take a brief moment to see how your thoughts have led me to express here. this is what I call getting the overview of people interacting from honesty values.
it causes changes in all.
_______
if you give PUL to use someone and throw that person away, it is not PUL.
_____
if another is using someone, that's conditional love versus unconditional love. Conditional love can also be used by Spirit to promote uncondtional love, if the person who is the "user" openly says "I am using you." if the other party agrees to be so used, it can lead to their own unfoldment of who they are choosing to be, by being so used. I bring this up because of a relationship where I realized I was using someone and told him so. He agreed to be used. lol. however, the relationship did lead to growth on both our parts, eventually to the unconditional love.
- the strongest PUL comes from the intention of PUL that is given naturally and out of free will.
free will PUL giving is like spontaneous. it's easy to give love when all is going right, it is when you meet with opposition that the real challenge ensues. and this ok too, as eventually we get to that natural part of it u r talking about.
- you should seek PUL where there is PUL.
It's more to say ask and you will receive, but you could say seek and you will find, same thing. it's a natural law that works, it's also where you focus as an intention that builds on itself. it is a human who is learning creativity of personal reality. I speak for myself, but I believe the principle is for all. and I'll add, it was no mistake that you came here, and any that remains here, have their own function here and  I thank each one for that.

If a person is fear-based and not love-based, you will not get love from that person or PUL
the thing to remember is fear stems from our particular belief systems. we surf between fear and love all the time, yet fail to recognize when we are coming from fear. It is the risk factor of ELS, that we learn what perfect love is by staying focused on our intentions for incarnating. gee, there's so much distraction on this lovely planet!
you will get fear, because it is its essence
Our true essence is love based. this is notable obe or in NDE's especially, that love is purposeful. If the mind is habitually trained into the negativity of fear, it is focused in that area. That is why the art of retrieval is such an exciting discovery, as the retriever can gain the attention of the retrievee through an act of PUL, effectively moving the spark of attention they were focused on "believing" thus creating it for themselves. some of these do not realize they may be suffering, until another can ask "must you?" the main thing is to forgive when u see others surrounded in fear, but not necessarily to see fear as their essence, but to see them as One with yourself, whom you know is love essence.

Of course, if I only offer PUL to someone to get PUL back, it is not "unconditional", so it is not really PUL. Am I right?
yes, you are right.
I want to add that I came to the conclusion that a loving behavior is always best
I came to realize anger is never justified as an expression if it interferes in another's free will determination. we are speaking in only the most superficial generalities here as well, for anger, used by Spirit, can also create the PUL in linear time that was the point, if the anger is given over to HS to utilize.

but not if it stops you from being honest about less-loving-things that one tries to solve.
____
I think we are still speaking in generalities about the nature of evil, or whether as Monroe states, there is no bad, there is no good. when we communicate here, we want to grow and learn and be  together. we  also want change in the world, which only starts with the individual. u have to be honest about your own reactions to what is bad on the surface. any of us can be very complicated beings. one good way to look at the world is that there are two kinds of people:
1) those giving PUL
2) those asking for PUL
1) those expressing abundance principle
2) those expressing a belief in scarcity, or lack of love.

Love and fear cannot be present at the same time eg. If I love this board, but fear to post, I am gonna have a real problem learning about PUL because there is a lot of PUL here.
___
I got you to express love. therefore you can drop the fear right now as it doesn't serve anybody here. I learned a lot from this board. one of the things I learned was how to get a response from others. I discovered people responded to a personal story, given with the intention to just share it without expectations of being applauded for having had it happen to me. this reminded them of their own stories of a like fashion. and I don't want anyone to think it's bad to have a fear express here, or that they cannot be expressing their belief that life sucks and then you die.
that's why we're here to present the oppositional thought and come to some sort of conclusion from time to time. it's a fine line to walk when we become disrespectful of anothers belief system, and whether we actually have some inspirational story to share, whether we shall allow freedom of expression, versus tromping all over someones prized garden of soulful ideas because it simply doesn't fit in your belief system. we need to generate communication, not to shut it down with too much negatives. just balance is all I'm desiring.
I got what I wanted. I'm not saying that to be egotistical. I just need to get an ident on Sonia.
that means an energy signature. because we all have one.

happy shifting everyone...rock on!

I believe that PUL is the ultimate solution.

Sonia  hi.
Pure Unconditional love is not something that can be willed I feel.It is a state of Being which when awakened in we humans will radiate in every way without the need to "direct it"The more you awaken the more it radiates.PUL cannot be manipulated by will or ego/personality.PUL is effortless in its expression, no need to worry how or when or who it should go to.The intelligence which is PUL knows all situations regarding human imbalance,dysfunction and need.Let go and let love.Just be the channel,IT will do its work.How beautifull it is.
Love Devayan

that was beautifully said Deva. I wish I said it so well. love, alysia :)

:) Beautifully put!

Devayan, I agree with what you said but ...
you forgot to mention that it is not exactly a walk in the park to get to that state. That I think is why so many think they can sit and just radiate PUL...but it ain't really PUL! sorry. It turns into something sappy if it isn't the real thing.

C1 has its tentacles in all of us. Maybe that is why the images of the bodies being held in the incubators is so powerful in The Matrix. We are all held like this. This is not to stress that it has to be a "terrible" journey to reach Stillness but that it is easy to fool yourself that you are there when you are not.

Saul of Tarsus thought he was "right" until he had an initiation, lost his vision, then regained sight and became Paul.

When I read Tolkein, the character that I most wanted to "be" was Gandalf. It is not trivial in the story that Gandalf the Grey  had to fall into the abyss and do battle with the monsters and crawl out in order to become Gandalf the White. Initiation.

Tolle had his own initiation. He crawled out of his own abyss. His message is that you don't have to be so dramatic, and most of us get there in a more gradual and less violent way. We get to take advantage of the wisdom passed on by those who have undergone some initiation.

But I think that after one has learned to experience PUL directly, then it is easier to give up thinking love is something to use to change or reward others. Do it for yourself! PUL yourself first and all else will follow.

And if you are trying to PUL for all the reasons given in the original question, you are going to block the experience of PUL.

I guess you have to love yourself as in loving your big self, not your little self. but PUL yourself first.

As I read Lucy's post, I remember I once focused in a meditation on PUL and opening the heart. At the one hand, I wanted it, and tried to "will" it to come to me, on the other hand, the focusing on it made so much of all the other things which are mostly associated with "I want it" fall off from me. The result was, I was incredibly energized and completely serene and without any worries and fears, my appartment seemed to be filled with white fog, and when I walked down the street people looked surprised at me. All the evil in the world was just so small while the universe was so big and interesting. The energy I felt had become so strong that I had to think about how to handle it, I imagined to expand steadily limitless. I needed to do this as the feeling  of heat, and that I might explode from the heart area was getting stronger and stronger. This could be a sign that this energy couldn't flow freely, and I have some work left to do. For some people the cleansing can feel like an intense burning feeling I've heard. After an hour or so this special state ceased.

Lucy, good remark about Gandalf! Btw, from Tolkien reader to Tolkien reader, when Gandalf The Grey met Saruman, who to that point of time was officially titled "The White", and it turned out that the latter was cooperating with the dark forces, he stated "The White? Look! I'm Saruman The Multicolored!"  (or so) I found that interesting. It wasn't in the movie, unfortunately.

Spooky

devayan wrote on Nov 1^st, 2008 at 2:25am:

Sonia  hi. Pure Unconditional love is not something that can be willed I feel.It is a state of Being which when awakened in we humans will radiate in every way without the need to "direct it"The more you awaken the more it radiates.PUL cannot be manipulated by will or ego/personality.PUL is effortless in its expression, no need to worry how or when or who it should go to.The intelligence which is PUL knows all situations regarding human imbalance,dysfunction and need.Let go and let love.Just be the channel,IT will do its work.How beautifull it is. Love Devayan

Thank you Devayan.

I think you're quite right, about the natural state of PUL. It must come naturally.

Often, I try to much to force myself, because I worry or am stressed not to do well enough or BE well enough.

It does cause an attitude that is not relaxed enough and that too is an obstruction to PUL.

Thank you for having this written down so well.

Sonia

So, one of the reason I put this topic down, is because wrong beliefs can get you to experience many other things than PUL or can have your life derived in ways that are less "pleasant".

I believe that deep down, we are all PUL, but if you have wrong beliefs that you cannot shed, that PUL you have/are will not come to expression (or it might come to expression in a less natural way or in a wrong way).

eg. If one really seeks PUL, but continuously post topics or have an attitude that is negative, one might get back what I sowed. In a way, one might deserve to get that negative back, but at the same time, one also gets cut off from positivity or positive attitudes that are necessary to learn from. Does this make any sense to anyone?

I mention this, because I believe I really lost someone (because of that negativity) that is important to me and I have no idea what to do about it.

Of course, such events are a necessity in my life, to make me think about the nature of things and to "shake" my point of view.

A saying says: Don't do unto others, what you don't want them to do unto you.


So then again, what should I do:

1. Stay myself, no matter what?

2. Be more positive, but that does not render the feeling I have: That  other people's opinion matter to me and when they have a negative opinion on me (no matter how much good my intentions were) it still makes me feel awful. In a certain way, I can't separate from one's negative opinion on me. It simply becomes a huge problem for me, because it is never clear to me how much truth it holds. You can look at the truth from different angles, can you?

3. Or is it that way, that when somebody has a negative opinion on you, it is over. You cannot change what that person thinks about you anymore, no matter what you do? AND if you do something, at what price would you try to recuperate someone? Should you sacrifice yourself, your way of being and doing, to have somebody back. Should you do something that makes you unhappy, to make somebody happy? At what price do you make somebody happy? That is a very important question related to PUL: Should you be ready to pay any price (eg. be somebody else) to be PUL and make that person happy (=to give PUL at the same time). OR should you change your beliefs at any price, to make somebody happy and be PUL (How do you know what to change to your beliefs?).

4. Simply be more positive and keep to myself the negative as to not bother anyone. But then, if I have problems, that I do not know a solution for, I cannot ask for advice.

5. If PUL is a thing that comes naturally and you feel you're not as much PUL as expected, what do you do? Be patient, relax...the consequences of unloving actions always show at some point, do they. And if your intentions are loving, but you do wrong anyway and end up misunderstood (and disbelieved in your good intentions), then what ?...

6. Learn PUL, always better (but again, opinions are often divided on what is the best way, isn't it?) and if you don't get any feedback on your behaviour (I didn't get that suffiently in my life), then you keep repeating the same mistakes, over and over again, don't you?

7. Other ideas are welcome.


And then, when you've done all that work on yourself, and the person(s) you're trying to win back (or simply convince) remain(s) with the belief that you're not good enough, not loving enough, not worthy of thrust, in the end, you should realize, that you cannot change the beliefs of that this other person has about you, can you?
How much is one expected to do, to proof his/her change???
Is PUL a solution to everything in such a situation?


Maybe I am trying to make an omelet, without breaking an egg. Is this possible, at all? I wish it is.

Sonia

It's another of these caring not not caring deals - actually the most fundamental one of all. It's really best to on the one hand figure out a fairly clear view of what's right, but at another level to then drop all striving, all intense personalisation of issues (me, mine, I, did, didn't), and all beating up on the self for making mistakes.

To be precise in our thought, and to have right intention, but to not be intense or overly intellectual about it. And to not follow the thought with intense efforts to put it into action. Followed by self blame when we fail.

It's possible to cultivate precision over time without intensity, but it emerges like an object from the fog and is not an intellectually driven affair.

To rely instead on (probably unconscious) guidance and higher mind to figure out the details in practice, to stay spontaneous - to let it flow. To not beat up on ourselves when as is inevitable we sometimes get it wrong. To fearlessly dance the dance....

Staying light means there's space for the higher intuition to come through. Getting hung up about it leads to guilt which inevitably gets projected on others and leads to non-loving behaviours - all in the end keeping us bound to ego.

The intense pattern of behaviour is one drummed into us by a society where we get punished, where there's little tolerance for mistakes, and a belief in punishment as a means of instilling right behaviour.

It's keeps us in line out of trouble as kids (the end is seen to justify the means), but it's not very good for developing a view conducive to spiritual growth, to development of right mind....

Vajra wrote:
"To rely instead on (probably unconscious) guidance and higher mind to figure out the details in practice, to stay spontaneous - to let it flow. To not beat up on ourselves when as is inevitable we sometimes get it wrong. To fearlessly dance the dance....

Staying light means there's space for the higher intuition to come through. Getting hung up about it leads to guilt which inevitably gets projected on others and leads to non-loving behaviours - all in the end keeping us bound to ego.

The intense pattern of behaviour is one drummed into us by a society where we get punished, where there's little tolerance for mistakes, and a belief in punishment as a means of instilling right behaviour.

It's keeps us in line out of trouble as kids (the end is seen to justify the means), but it's not very good for developing a view conducive to spiritual growth, to development of right mind.... "



I mean, usually there is little tolerance for my mistakes at all and I am so afraid for the boomerang-effect for mistakes I make.

At the same time, I never got told/taught a better way of being, so I feel stuck in that wrong pattern, in a more practical way.

You can be as loving as you want, if you practically don't know how to show it OR think it, you remain having trouble, don't you???

Sonia

I think most of us share the legacy of being brought up in a blame, punishment and guilt oriented society to one degree or another Sonia - although family attitudes can greatly intensify the situation.

My own experience was of having very intense and picky parents who were incredibly critical of what they (as its turned out in many ways rather arbitrarily) saw as wrongdoing. They meant well, but they  instilled a sort of fearful perfectionism and guilt in me.

No matter what I did or achieved it ended up so I couldn't see the positive in it, and it led to a workaholism and perfectionism that burned me out and led to quite serious illness by my early 30s.

I've heard several Tibetan Buddhist teachers comment to the effect that they find it very hard to comprehend the culture of self blame and guilt they encounter in the West - they say it's very different to what is normal at home.

Buddhism for me was the breath of fresh air and the means of escape - it introduced to me to a blame free view. It didn't just insist this was the right way to look at things, it provided an entire and finely argued alternative framework through which to make sense of both myself and the world which at least (with the experience of trialling the new ways of thought) for me made it clear that it was true.

ACIM as I've said in its teaching on the forgiveness of a loving God being automatic (if it never happened, and was forgiven before you mistakenly dreamed you did it how can you be guilty?) , and it adds another view in differing language which verifies this - not to mention a host of practical ways to work the path of personal transformation.

It's not a road for those not prepared to make an effort, and as I may have posted before it starts with study and the understanding that there are other ways of seeing things - the realisation that we don't always give ourselves a fair deal. With practice (including the meditation that calms and opens the mind) it eventually evolves into a natural and spontaneous emergence of wisdom and compassion  - as the ego slowly falls away we effectively become a different person. We access our true nature.

Pema Chodron's books (Shambhala Publications) are a decent starting point, Chogyam Trungpa's 'Training the Mind and Cultivating Loving Kindness' is another that's a little more profound. All are available on Amazon.

Be careful if you look at the Buddhist route to not get sucked into the perhaps overly intellectual and devotional orientation that can be encountered in groups - concentrate on extracting the tools and view you need to live your life and work your issues.

It's temping and not untypical to think  that our minds are what they are, that 'that's just the way I am'. But the reality is that study, self work and time deliver change which at the daily level is pretty imperceptible, but viewed over years can be spectacular.

That's why I may have suggested before getting started on a slightly more formal spiritual path with one of the traditions, at least until you get a basic training.  

One final word - if you decide to give it a go try to stay light and balanced from the start. All sorts of pitfalls can cause us problems while on the path if we get too serious about it all, or allow ourselves to set aside our disbelief - in the end all we can do is live it day by day starting from where we are.

It may take days, months, years or lives, and it can be tough going at times when the old edifices start to crumble - but at least it's likely to be progress.

In the words of the well known verse by the Tibetan teacher Nyoshul Khen Rinpoche which talks of the benefit of meditation and realease from ego:

“Rest in natural great peace
This exhausted mind
Beaten helpless by karma and neurotic thought,
Like the relentless fury of the pounding waves
In the infinite ocean of samsara*.”

* = the perceived reality created by ego

To borrow a quote: 'in Tibetan something similar is said :  chu ma nyok na dang, sem ma cho na de.'  Which means roughly, "Muddy water if you do not stir, will settle and become clear; the mind left unaltered will find its own natural peace." (while still enmeshed in the striving of ego we can find no peace)

This recognition of our true nature makes clear that it is possible to eventually relax into our native gentleness......

Digging through some old files I found the following four pages of Tibetan Buddhist teaching on generating compassion in oneself.

Perhaps it may be of interest. Buddhism is often portrayed as somehow not teaching on love, but this could not be further from the truth.

The main point is that none of this is usually a matter of finding and flicking the magic switch - it's more a matter of steady work to awaken what's most definitely there in all of us - buried in beneath many many layers of conditioning over many lifetimes.

How to awaken Love and Compassion

Before you can truly practice Tonglen, you have to be able to evoke compassion in yourself.  That is harder than we often imagine, because the sources of our love and compassion are sometimes hidden from us, and we may have no ready access to them.  Fortunately there are several special techniques that the Buddhist “training of the mind” in compassion has developed to help us evoke our own hidden love.  Out of the enormous range of methods available, I have selected the following ones, and have ordered them in a particular way so as to be of the greatest possible use to people in the modern world.

1)      Loving Kindness:  Unsealing the Spring
When we believe that we don’t have enough love in us, there is a method for discovering and invoking it.  Go back in you mind and recreate, almost visualise, a love that someone gave you that really moved you, perhaps in your childhood.  You can think of anyone who had been deeply kind to you in your life.  Remember a particular instance when they really showed you love and you felt their love vividly.

Now let that feeling arise again in your heart and infuse you with gratitude.  As you do so, your love will go out naturally to that person who evoked it.  You will remember then that even though you may not always feel that you have been loved enough, you were loved genuinely once.  Knowing that now will make you feel again that you are, as that person made you feel then, worthy of love and really lovable.  

Let your heart open now and let love flow from it; then extend this love to all beings.  Begin with those who are closest to you, then extend your love to friends and to acquaintances, then to neighbours, to strangers, then even to those whom you don’t like or have difficulties with, even those whom you might consider as your “enemies,” and finally to the whole universe.  Let this love become more and more boundless.  Equanimity is one of the four essential facets, with loving kindness, compassion, and joy, of what the teachings say form the entire aspiration of compassion.  The all-inclusive, unbiased view of equanimity is really the starting point and the basis of the path of compassion.

You will find that this practice unseals a spring of love, and by that unsealing in you of your own loving kindness, you will find that it will inspire the birth of compassion.  For as Maitreya said in one of the teachings he gave Asanga: “The water of compassion courses through the canal of loving kindness.”

2)      Compassion:  Considering Yourself the Same as Others
One powerful way to evoke compassion, as I have described in the previous chapter, is to think of others as exactly the same as you.  “After all,” the Dalai Lama explains, “all human beings are the same – made of human flesh, bones, and blood.  We all want happiness and want to avoid suffering.  Further, we have an equal right to be happy.  In other words, it is important to realise our sameness as human beings.”
Say, for example, you are having difficulties with a loved one, such as your mother or father, husband or wife, lover or friend.  How helpful and revealing it can be to consider the other person not in his or her “role” of mother or father or husband, but simply as another “you”, another human being, with the same feelings as you, the same desire for happiness, the same fear of suffering.  Thinking of the person as a real person, exactly the same as you, will open your heart to him or her and give you more insight into how to help.
If you consider others just the same as yourself, it will help you to open up your relationships and give them a new and richer meaning.  Imagine if societies and nations began to view each other in the same way; at last we would have the beginnings of a solid basis for peace on earth and the happy coexistence of all peoples.

3)      Compassion:  Exchanging Yourself for Others
When someone is suffering and you find yourself at a loss to know how to help, put yourself unflinchingly in his or her place.  Imagine as vividly as possible what you would be going through if you were suffering the same pain.  Ask yourself:
“How would I feel?  How would I want my friends to treat me?  What would I most want from them?”

When you exchange yourself for others in this way, you are directly transferring your cherishing from its usual object, yourself, to other beings.  So exchanging yourself for others is a very powerful way of loosening the hold on you of the self-cherishing and the self-grasping of ego, and so of releasing the heart of your compassion.

4)      Using a Friend to Generate Compassion
Another moving technique for arousing compassion for a person who is suffering is to imagine one of your dearest friends, or someone you really love, in that person’s place.  Quite naturally your heart will open, and compassion will awaken in you:  What more would you want than to free them from their torment?  Now take this compassion released on your heart and transfer it to the person who needs your help:  You will find that your help is inspired more naturally, and that you can direct it more easily.

As Portia says in Shakespeare’s Merchant of Venice:
The quality of mercy is not strained,
It droppeth as the gentle rain from heaven
Upon the place beneath:  it is twice bless’d;
It blesseth him that gives, and him that takes…

Compassion is the wish-fulfilling gem whose light of healing spreads in all directions.


5)      How to Meditate on Compassion
Yet as I have said, evoking this power of compassion in us is not always easy.  I find myself that the simplest way are the best and the most direct.  Every day, life gives us innumerable chances to open our hearts, if we can only take them.

Any sight could open the eyes of your heart to the fact of vast suffering in the world.  Let it.  Don’t waste the love and grief it arouses; in the moment you feel compassion welling up in you, don’t brush it aside, don’t shrug it off and try quickly to return to “normal,” don’t be afraid of your feeling or embarrassed by it, don’t allow yourself to be distracted from it or let it run aground in apathy.  Be vulnerable: use that quick, bright uprush of compassion; focus on it, go deep into your heart and meditate on it, develop it, enhance, and deepen it.  By doing this you will realise how blind you have been to suffering, how the pain that you are experiencing or seeing now is only a tiny fraction of the pain of the world.  All beings, everywhere, suffer; let your heart go out to them all in spontaneous and immeasurable compassion, and direct that compassion, along with the blessing of all the Buddha’s, to the alleviation of suffering everywhere.
Compassion is a far greater and nobler thing than pity.  Pity has its roots in fear, and a sense of arrogance and condescension, sometimes even a smug feeling of “I’m glad it’s not me.”  As Stephen Levine says: “When your fear touches someone’s pain it becomes pity; when your love touches someone’s pain, it becomes compassion.”  To train in compassion, then, is to know all beings are the same and suffer in similar ways, to honour all those who suffer, and to know you are neither separate from nor superior to anyone.

So your first response on seeing someone suffer becomes not mere pity, but deep compassion.  You feel for that person respect and even gratitude, because you now know that whoever prompts you to develop compassion by their suffering is in fact giving you one of the greatest gifts of all, because they are helping you to develop that very quality you need most in your progress toward enlightenment.  That is why we say in Tibet that the beggar who is asking you for money, or the sick old woman wringing your heart, may be the Buddha’s in disguise, manifesting on your path to help you grow in compassion and so move towards buddhahood.


6)      How to Direct Your Compassion
When you meditate deeply enough on compassion, there will arise in you a strong determination to alleviate the suffering of all beings, and an acute sense of responsibility toward that noble aim.  There are two ways, then, of mentally directing this compassion and making it active.  

The first way is to pray to all the Buddha’s and enlightened beings, from the depths of your heart, that everything you do, all your thoughts, words, and deeds, should only benefit beings and bring them happiness.  In the words of one great prayer:  “Bless me into usefulness.”  Pray that you benefit all who come in contact with you, and help them transform their suffering and their lives.

The second and universal way is to direct whatever compassion you have to all beings, by dedicating all your positive actions and spiritual practice to their welfare and especially toward their enlightenment.  For when you meditate deeply on compassion, a realisation dawns in you that the only way for you to be of complete help to other beings is for you to gain enlightenment.  From that a strong sense of determination and universal responsibility is born, and the compassionate wish arises in you at that moment to attain enlightenment for the benefit of all others.

This compassionate wish is called Bodhichitta in Sanskrit; bodhi means our enlightened essence, and chitta means heart.  
So we could translate it as “the heart of our enlightened mind.”  To awaken and develop the heart of the enlightened mind is to ripen steadily the seed of our Buddha nature, that seed that in the end, when our practice of compassion has become perfect and all-embracing, will flower majestically into buddhahood.  Bodhichitta, then, is the spring and source and root of the entire spiritual path.  That is why Shantideva could praise Bodhichitta with such joy:

It is the supreme elixir
That overcomes the sovereignty of death.
It is the inexhaustible treasure
That eliminates poverty in the world.
It is the supreme medicine
That quells the world’s disease.
It is the tree that shelters all beings
Wandering and tired on the path of conditioned existence.
It is the universal bridge
That leads to freedom from unhappy states of birth.
It is the dawning moon of the mind
That dispels the torment of disturbing conceptions.
It is the great sun that finally removes
The misty ignorance of the world.

And that is why in our tradition we pray with such urgency:
Bodhichitta, precious and sublime:
May it arise in those in whom it has not arisen;
May it never decline where it has arisen;
But go on increasing, further and further!

Patrul Rinpoche used these four lines to encapsulate the entire training in Bodhichitta, “the wish,” as Maitreya described it, “to attain perfect enlightenment for the sake of others.”  Let me briefly outline this training.  

It begins by developing within your mind loving kindness, compassion, joy, and equanimity toward limitless living beings.  Through a practice of deep contemplation, you cultivate these four qualities to such a degree that they become boundless and immeasurable.  And so Bodhichitta “arises where it has not arisen,” for this has brought you to a point where you are impelled by an almost heartbreaking urge to take responsibility for others, and so to pledge yourself truly to arouse the heart of the enlightened mind by training in what are called
“Bodhichitta in aspiration” and
“Bodhichitta in action.”  

The former is to train in considering yourself the same as others, then in exchanging yourself with others, which includes the Tonglen practice, and finally in considering others even more important than yourself.  

The latter is to develop to perfection generosity, discipline, patience or endurance, diligence, concentration, and wisdom, all of them infused by a penetrating insight into the nature of reality itself.  So the Bodhichitta “never declines where it has arisen” and goes on “increasing further and further.”  
This, then, is the path of the bodhisattvas, the practice of the compassionate heart of the enlightened mind that, because undertaken for the benefit of all, leads directly to Buddhahood.

Ian quote: The former is to train in considering yourself the same as others, then in exchanging yourself with others, which includes the Tonglen practice, and finally in considering others even more important than yourself.
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she sings: I laugh, I cry, I fear, I try. I hope, I love, I hurt, I cry, and I know you do the same things too, so we're really not that different, me and you. This is a well put together tune Colin Raye does and which I'm learning to perform.
just sharing. I am observing growth in all. of people speaking from the heart, or singing from the heart. everywhere I go.
I truly believe we are in a speed up and it can be uncomfortable but we can learn to bend with it. ride the crest of it, with some of concepts presented in Ian's post.

Growth can be imperceptible but change is certain in our world, whether we notice it or not.
I am meeting some angels on the karaoke route. I start crying when I think of how lucky I was to meet them. but it's not luck, I know I am supposed to meet every single person I meet. rather, in hindsight I realize this.

the love shining from their eyes, there's maybe a dozen of these angels I've met. I call them this because I see their love and dedication. and they sing for free although a few of them are professional, there's hardly any money in entertainment to brag about.
I'm sure none of them I could discuss the concepts of Buddism with. but that doesn't even matter to me.

All that matters is that Spirit is talking to me through these angels, of our oneness where we sing of love, even though we don't really know what it is we want, or are seeking, we express the commonality in music, based on our prevailing awareness of what Love is.

Love seems to come in all sorts of disguises, sizes and shapes, gender and race, and so forth; in the most unlikely places I see them all marching onward.... :)