[smiley=cheesy.gif]

I started to read Seth about 20 years ago, then Robert Monroe, then onto Michael Newton. Recently started reading Scott Rogo's works.

I went to the Monroe Institute in April 2008, then found out about Bruce Moen's books. Now, I'm reading Moen's books while I'm rereading Seth. Gateway wasn't that great for me since I found myself "clicking out" while in the Cech unit all the time I was there. Meals were great, attendees very helpful, but found the week to be an expensive Rest & Recuperation.

Went to Gateway not knowing what to expect, and still haven't been able to "get" it, yet. Working on it, though. Was a psychology major in college so I'm respectful of how the mind operates in creating illusions, allusions, and delusions.

Immersing myself in Moen's books now, but wish I had read his works prior to the Gateway. Monroe's books opened my eyes, so to speak, about other consciousnesses, but no methodologies for getting There. Moen's works are more practical, as an engineer would have it always, and I've found them more helpful.

Can someone toss me some ideas on how to effectively get from Here to There?

Not a vegatarian, vegan, eat meat, don't meditate, drink coffee, alcohol sometimes, don't smoke, eat peanuts (a Scott Rogo No-No), and probably a bunch of other habits that makes it tough for me to get to There. Have the DVD's for Focus levels up to and including Focus 21. Use them now, but click out all the time.

Hi Ronny and I'm just throwing out the first welcome. I have no idea how to get from here to there, you must be referring to Monroe's phrase about the I/there.

as I understand it, it's a process of 1,000 or more lifetimes here. I have no idea which lifetime you are now in. I just say this to introduce the quality of being patient and gentle with yourself, and don't assume clicking out is a negative block as it's useful to recognize you do click out, and seems entirely normal.
having lifetimes is the I/there's planning committee, and include your family members, planning with you. it's not a linear time inference, but appears as sequential lives while we live a single life.

to the I/there, all the lives are already lived in a place of no-time. Once you remember the I/there you begin to merge with it in memory. you may begin to remember with your I/there, other lives, if that is beneficial for you before death occurs of the body.sometimes it's not important to remember here, as memory is restored by the retrieval of yourself, by a member of your I/there, and that happens when it happens irrespective of our wishes to make it happen sooner.
with Monroe, his I/there begin to correspond with him, as he was frequently out of body and it developed this way, that he was  merging back into the I/there due to his urge to help humanity become aware of what  he was learning in the Obe state.

he left us hemiSync as something tangible. His adventures with the I/there, is also a sort of map for myself.

matter of fact I'm re-reading Ultimate Journey and blowing my mind even further than I blew it the first time over this man's life.

wishing you all the best in your studies, remember to enjoy your life, whatever it is, as we will see, life is short. so make it very sweet also. love, alysia

Hi Ronny,
yes, I have been to GV and Lifeline, and there, too, were some who had this issue. Would you say you'd just fall asleep or really click out, which is like a hard break, as if a piece of time is just cut out, with no slow napping in and wakeup periods.
  I suggest you try Bruces methods. That way you could figure out if it's the HemiSync which makes you click out or if it's a general issue for you to stay awake.
  I only very rarely fall asleep while HemiSyncing / meditating, but a probable backside of it is, I have issues to fall asleep even when I want to.
  The breakthrough for me in the Gateway Voyage was when I allowed to let a "movie" unfold. I thought I'm making it all up and tended to stop it, but finally I decided to accept it and to treat it, just for the exercise, as if it were real.

Spooky

LaffingRain wrote on Oct 20^th, 2008 at 6:15pm:

Hi Ronny and I'm just throwing out the first welcome. I have no idea how to get from here to there, you must be referring to Monroe's phrase about the I/there. as I understand it, it's a process of 1,000 or more lifetimes here. I have no idea which lifetime you are now in. I just say this to introduce the quality of being patient and gentle with yourself, and don't assume clicking out is a negative block as it's useful to recognize you do click out, and seems entirely normal. having lifetimes is the I/there's planning committee, and include your family members, planning with you. it's not a linear time inference, but appears as sequential lives while we live a single life. to the I/there, all the lives are already lived in a place of no-time. Once you remember the I/there you begin to merge with it in memory. you may begin to remember with your I/there, other lives, if that is beneficial for you before death occurs of the body.sometimes it's not important to remember here, as memory is restored by the retrieval of yourself, by a member of your I/there, and that happens when it happens irrespective of our wishes to make it happen sooner. with Monroe, his I/there begin to correspond with him, as he was frequently out of body and it developed this way, that he was  merging back into the I/there due to his urge to help humanity become aware of what  he was learning in the Obe state. he left us hemiSync as something tangible. His adventures with the I/there, is also a sort of map for myself. matter of fact I'm re-reading Ultimate Journey and blowing my mind even further than I blew it the first time over this man's life. wishing you all the best in your studies, remember to enjoy your life, whatever it is, as we will see, life is short. so make it very sweet also. love, alysia

Thank you for your response. I have also had the chance to reread Monroe's books the last few years and agree with you there are more facts to digest every time you reread something. I've had to literally take Seth books and reread them aloud so I can concentrate on the myriad of points the entity addresses in a few tightly woven lines of text.

There is a lot to learn in this non-physical reality, but I'm in a bit of a rush to obtain knowledge in this area. We both know life is short, and we need to enjoy life too.

Please keep those cards and letters coming. I reread them also.

spooky2 wrote on Oct 20^th, 2008 at 11:55pm:

Hi Ronny, yes, I have been to GV and Lifeline, and there, too, were some who had this issue. Would you say you'd just fall asleep or really click out, which is like a hard break, as if a piece of time is just cut out, with no slow napping in and wakeup periods.   I suggest you try Bruces methods. That way you could figure out if it's the HemiSync which makes you click out or if it's a general issue for you to stay awake.   I only very rarely fall asleep while HemiSyncing / meditating, but a probable backside of it is, I have issues to fall asleep even when I want to.   The breakthrough for me in the Gateway Voyage was when I allowed to let a "movie" unfold. I thought I'm making it all up and tended to stop it, but finally I decided to accept it and to treat it, just for the exercise, as if it were real. Spooky

My first, and only to date, Gateway was what I consider to be a failure; am considering going back again for a Gateway, but this time better prepared as to what to expect. My background for the last 30 years has been in the area of numbers crunching. This is far removed from the nebulous, other consciousness. Now, I feel I've been directed to exploring these areas, and have less time than 30 years ago. As an aside, would anyone know if the Monroe Institute offers discounts to attendees who repeat a curriculum?

Do I fall asleep or really click out? Good question since I don't know the difference(s) between the two. All I know is when I lay down in my bed located in a darkened room and play the hemi-sync files stored on my Microsoft Zune (via good earbuds) I wake up close to an hour later not having consciously experienced any noticeable stimuli. I do wake up more refreshed than before I "went to sleep, or clicked out," but this could be due to the fact that I had about an hour of physical rest. Monroe claims the hemi-sync files do more than give one a restful sleep, and goes to claim that hearing the files and clicking out still has benefits.

I've taken to a sleep schedule that is more akin to what Seth suggested: sleep about five hours, wake and conduct life for about the same number of hours, then go back to sleep. Seth's approach states that sleeping more than six hours throws the physical body out of whack since too much sleep prevents the dream state from impacting the physical state. Seth recommended that there be a good mix of sleep and wake hours that is balanced more by five hours of sleep and about the same number of hours for waking. I also believe Edgar Cayce mentioned our modern sleep cycle (long sleep hours and long wake hours) is not conducive to good physical health.

Your experience of letting the movie unfold is very interesting. It's similar to what Moen wrote about in his second book, wherein he offers approaches to changing one's belief systems so that one is open to the other stimuli, some of which may even come from the unconscious levels. I've never meditated in my life; I can probably count the number of times I've meditated on both hands. And this is over a lifetime of close to 60 years. I've always thought it wasteful of one's time to sit for a few minutes to contemplate one's navel, so to speak. Most, if not all, my fellow Gateway attendees were already well versed in meditation, and had incorporated that regimen into their daily lives. In fact, the first five days of the six day Gateway did manifest in this manner for me: it helped me relax, not soon enough to partake of other benefits of the program before it ended on the sixth day.

I haven't read all of Moen's books so I'm not sure of what his method(s) of inducing altered consciousness is; of course, it's also possible that I've read of his method but because I am not attuned to this whole subject matter, that I might have filtered it out inadvertently.

Ronny, you said:

Do I fall asleep or really click out? Good question since I don't know the difference(s) between the two. All I know is when I lay down in my bed located in a darkened room and play the hemi-sync files stored on my Microsoft Zune (via good earbuds) I wake up close to an hour later not having consciously experienced any noticeable stimuli. I do wake up more refreshed than before I "went to sleep, or clicked out," but this could be due to the fact that I had about an hour of physical rest. Monroe claims the hemi-sync files do more than give one a restful sleep, and goes to claim that hearing the files and clicking out still has benefits.
---------------------

I am not sure what the difference is between sleeping and 'clicking out' either, but I note that you mention how you are, nonetheless, more refreshed after doing this meditation than if you had simply slept. That is key, to me.

I found, over time, that with meditation cds of a high quality, noteably if they worked with brainwaves, a clicking out is much more likely to occur. But, yes, there is no comparison, for me, between a 'normal' sleep and one enhanced by meditation techniques. This fact kept me continuing with my meditations at times when I was quite tired.

My advice is not to worry about the clicking out for now. When you have absorbed enough in the 'out' stage you will wake up again. You can sit up and do other things to try to be more alert, and you may have more success that way.

But, still, I wouldn't worry too much about the clicking out. I don't find it to be harmful or wasteful in any way.

love, blink

Hi Ronnie,

Welcome! :)

Bruce's fifth book -- the guidebook to afterlife experiences is a full course in moving into afterlife realms.  You could skip any others for now and move directly into the Guidebook. -- It sounds as if you've been 'initiated' enough!  :)

I do most of what you do (or have listed you do) and I can still participate in the afterlife.  The preparation that I find most helpful is the deep but gentle breaths.  Bruce has a way of working with three from above,then three from below, but for my body I need to do some deep but gentle breathing daily.

If you could find some time, not to contemplate your navel, but just to quiet your mind or gaze on some aspect of nature that is calming, I expect that will also help.

Best wishes!

Betson

wrote on Oct 21^st, 2008 at 8:49am:

Ronny, you said: Do I fall asleep or really click out? Good question since I don't know the difference(s) between the two. All I know is when I lay down in my bed located in a darkened room and play the hemi-sync files stored on my Microsoft Zune (via good earbuds) I wake up close to an hour later not having consciously experienced any noticeable stimuli. I do wake up more refreshed than before I "went to sleep, or clicked out," but this could be due to the fact that I had about an hour of physical rest. Monroe claims the hemi-sync files do more than give one a restful sleep, and goes to claim that hearing the files and clicking out still has benefits. --------------------- I am not sure what the difference is between sleeping and 'clicking out' either, but I note that you mention how you are, nonetheless, more refreshed after doing this meditation than if you had simply slept. That is key, to me. I found, over time, that with meditation cds of a high quality, noteably if they worked with brainwaves, a clicking out is much more likely to occur. But, yes, there is no comparison, for me, between a 'normal' sleep and one enhanced by meditation techniques. This fact kept me continuing with my meditations at times when I was quite tired. My advice is not to worry about the clicking out for now. When you have absorbed enough in the 'out' stage you will wake up again. You can sit up and do other things to try to be more alert, and you may have more success that way. But, still, I wouldn't worry too much about the clicking out. I don't find it to be harmful or wasteful in any way. love, blink

Blink, thank you for your subtle observation. My recall of my physical body affects after I listen to the hemi-sync tapes was my clue, but I wasn't attuned to them. The fact that I noticed I was more "refreshed" after listening to a hemi-sync tape, versus just napping, indicates there was an effect from the tape. I am thankfull you pointed this out to me, even though I observed it but did not see it, so to speak. The nuances and subtleties are what I need to train my left-brained head is what is is all about for me. Give me numbers, datapoints, and I'm a whiz at the stuff, but ask me to be still to listen to the chirping of the birds and the rustling of the leaves, and I'm at a loss. There still is an element of anxiety associated with what I hard trained my whole life to do: make things happen in the physical world, versus what I'm now trying to do: regain an awareness of our other consciousnesses.

betson wrote on Oct 21^st, 2008 at 9:15am:

Hi Ronnie, Welcome! :) Bruce's fifth book -- the guidebook to afterlife experiences is a full course in moving into afterlife realms.  You could skip any others for now and move directly into the Guidebook. -- It sounds as if you've been 'initiated' enough!  :) I do most of what you do (or have listed you do) and I can still participate in the afterlife.  The preparation that I find most helpful is the deep but gentle breaths.  Bruce has a way of working with three from above,then three from below, but for my body I need to do some deep but gentle breathing daily. If you could find some time, not to contemplate your navel, but just to quiet your mind or gaze on some aspect of nature that is calming, I expect that will also help. Best wishes! Betson

Betson, I've managed to accumulate a lot of books written by Moen. A bunch of other books too. I do a lot of research before I delve into a subject and prefer that others do the pioneering work while I mop us after them. Moen's works were detailed enough that I found them helpful, hence I'm on this board inquiring about additional information that I might not find in his written materials. I will obtain his fifth book which is his guide. Thanks for the suggestion that his fifth book will get me there faster and quicker than plodding through his other books which I have which does the same except in a lengthier and more descriptive fashion. I've found some of his chapters to be too figurative for me to grasp, somewhat akin to Monroe's written sections in his second work, Far Journeys, in which he goes to greater length and content on his concept of "loosh." That got me reaching a bit to understand what he was trying to tell his readers.

It is strange indeed that I now find myself in this position on my own path in life. A medium I recently enlisted suggested that I have been guided by the spirits to this area, from where I had been. I'm a very left-brained person, much more so than Moen who is trained as an engineer. I've had two unexpected OBE's in my own life years ago. After one major episode I sought the advice of another medium to help me decide whether or not I should pursue this area. After a cursory review of possible outcomes I decided the area of altered consciousness was too nebulous, and unrewarding monetarily, so I pursued even furrther and deeper into the physical world by crunching numbers and dealing with hard physical reality. In the realm of physical reality I'm quite accomplished.

The recent medium suggested that the spirits think it's time for people with my emphasis to delve into the altered consciousness since it will be easier for types like me to translate the research and works of those who've gone ahead earlier. Those more pioneer-like researchers would be less acceptable to the more general audiences, but what I find from the altered consciousness realms would be more believable to the general audiences since I am already well versed in their physical reality.

This can be likened to what Monroe did for meditative states. Prior to Monroe's work, one of the more successful ways of attaining interaction with the altered states was through years of self-imposed meditation through the eastern arts, e.g. yoga. Monroe wrote of an incident in which a practiced buddhist went to his institute and was extremely impressed with the alacrity by which he was able to attain heightened states of awareness using Monroe's hemi-sync tapes. The buddhist had spent years perfecting his "technique" that the Monroe method was able to help others achieve in a few days.

In a way, I might be at the forefront of taking the research and experiences of practioners like you and "preaching" to the masses. Inherent in this thought is the fact there will be more need from the masses for such knowledge. In a way, I feel that I am one of the apostles, twice or three times removed from the original 12.

Your thoughts?

:o
:D
:)    :)

My thought is wow,  we've been posting here for months about the need for data! And Bruce of course asks that we get as much factual references as possible when involved in retrievals and visitations.

I'm so right-brained I can't even imagine the steps necessary to get the info, but there are experienced explorers here who have much ability in logic and science. If you ask for any assistance here, I'm sure you'll get it.

Much success-- in all the 'hemispheres'!  :)

Bets

Hi again Ronny,
what I recommend to everyone is a "mild", easy way of meditation.

The first goal simply is to get your mind away from the daily topics and concerns. To start with "No thoughts" is too difficult and long termed for most people, and often not even desired. The other approach is easier: Instead of clearing your mind in order to get in distance to the all-day hurry and schedule, simply imagine something. Close your eyes and imagine to be somewhere, the best would be at a place you don't know to avoid associations with your physical life's activities, a place you create. This may sound like a useless childish game, but it is a very effective method to reach an altered consciousness state, away from the physical into the nonphysical. (Btw, to train your imagination is useful for all sorts of things)

The second step then is to move from a controlled, active imagination to a more receptive one. This could be, you imagine to be in "your" landscape, and walk around with not too many expectations. You sooner or later will see in your mind things or persons you haven't planned to see. It will feel as if you are imagining it right now, but just go with the flow, and accept it as if it were real. When you do this for a while, and write down your experiences, and then re-read them, you will notice that the results are different from the usual imagination, dreaming, or daydreaming.

From that point on, you can go various ways: You could try to go to nonphysical places others have described (simply by your will to do so), or call for a helper to show you something interesting or to give you some answers, or try to do retrievals, or remote viewing or whatever.

The evaluation of what you get in those, what I call, mind-journeys is up to you. It is, at least in the beginning, a must to write down your experiences, because otherwise you WILL forget them like dreams. Once you have developed a "feeling" for these nonphysical / mind places and/or states, it will get easier to remember it even without writing it down, as it will become your second nature, and so to speak, you'll live in two worlds, which, at it's best, will correspond to a good degree.

Bruce's Guidebook contains a step-by-step approach of this.
-------------------------------------

What you've told of Seth's comments about sleep-schedules, there's some truth in it, though I believe it varies to a great degree individually. What is a matter of fact unfortunately, a full-time job without an hour of rest/sleep in between, is a very hindering factor in achieving controlled states of nonphysical perception. When you got home from work after 8 hours or even more, you eat something and then... bump. You fall asleep (maybe while having a beer and watching tv...)  :P .  

Click out vs. fall asleep: I once listened to a HemiSync recording, and after a little while it made a "click", just like the cd-player couldn't track it properly, so I looked at the cd player and it had skipped about 20 minutes, impossible, as it would have taken some time for the sound head to move, and I looked at my watch, I remembered the time when I layed me down, and the watch, too, was twenty minutes later. So, there was a time gap of twenty minutes, it was a click-out, and I absolutely know nothing of what had happened during that time. It's a very odd experience.

Spooky

betson wrote on Oct 21^st, 2008 at 1:13pm:

:o :D :)    :) My thought is wow,  we've been posting here for months about the need for data! And Bruce of course asks that we get as much factual references as possible when involved in retrievals and visitations. I'm so right-brained I can't even imagine the steps necessary to get the info, but there are experienced explorers here who have much ability in logic and science. If you ask for any assistance here, I'm sure you'll get it. Much success-- in all the 'hemispheres'!  :) Bets

Bets, thank you for the encouraging words. I was trained in my early years in pre-med and I have an understanding of the hard sciences. The hard sciences thrive on repeatability of results. If I create action A, I will get result B. If I do it again, I should get the same result. The more times I create action A, the more confident I am of getting result B.

Prior to my reading of Michael Newton's works on lives between lives, the works of luminaries (pardon the pun) such as Jane Roberts, Edgar Cayce, and even Robert Monroe, showed the possibility of existence beyond the physical, but the observations were more anecdotal than scientific. Newton, however, performed over 7,000 deep level hypnoses and he concluded the existence of certain commonalities among his patients. It took someone like Newton with his experience to be able to find the common denominators among his patients. His search is akin to the search of patterns that later evolved into Chaos Theory. It takes a much more generalist view to be able to see the patterns.

One might argue that Monroe created repeatable environments with his creation of hemi-sync and its application to subjects. I am not conversant with the results of his clients, but from where the application of hemi-sync starts to where it ends is a very, very lengthy chain of connections. The length of the chain is what bothers me. The end results of the actions -- recallable experiences from defined levels of foci from levels 10 to 36 (the latter as a result of continued experimentation) -- are so varied and have yet to be categorized succinctly, that it is hard for me to accept them from a scientific view.

Intuitively, however, I can see how anything is possible.

spooky2 wrote on Oct 22^nd, 2008 at 2:55am:

Hi again Ronny, what I recommend to everyone is a "mild", easy way of meditation. The first goal simply is to get your mind away from the daily topics and concerns. To start with "No thoughts" is too difficult and long termed for most people, and often not even desired. The other approach is easier: Instead of clearing your mind in order to get in distance to the all-day hurry and schedule, simply imagine something. Close your eyes and imagine to be somewhere, the best would be at a place you don't know to avoid associations with your physical life's activities, a place you create. This may sound like a useless childish game, but it is a very effective method to reach an altered consciousness state, away from the physical into the nonphysical. (Btw, to train your imagination is useful for all sorts of things) The second step then is to move from a controlled, active imagination to a more receptive one. This could be, you imagine to be in "your" landscape, and walk around with not too many expectations. You sooner or later will see in your mind things or persons you haven't planned to see. It will feel as if you are imagining it right now, but just go with the flow, and accept it as if it were real. When you do this for a while, and write down your experiences, and then re-read them, you will notice that the results are different from the usual imagination, dreaming, or daydreaming. From that point on, you can go various ways: You could try to go to nonphysical places others have described (simply by your will to do so), or call for a helper to show you something interesting or to give you some answers, or try to do retrievals, or remote viewing or whatever. The evaluation of what you get in those, what I call, mind-journeys is up to you. It is, at least in the beginning, a must to write down your experiences, because otherwise you WILL forget them like dreams. Once you have developed a "feeling" for these nonphysical / mind places and/or states, it will get easier to remember it even without writing it down, as it will become your second nature, and so to speak, you'll live in two worlds, which, at it's best, will correspond to a good degree. Bruce's Guidebook contains a step-by-step approach of this. ------------------------------------- What you've told of Seth's comments about sleep-schedules, there's some truth in it, though I believe it varies to a great degree individually. What is a matter of fact unfortunately, a full-time job without an hour of rest/sleep in between, is a very hindering factor in achieving controlled states of nonphysical perception. When you got home from work after 8 hours or even more, you eat something and then... bump. You fall asleep (maybe while having a beer and watching tv...)  :P .   Click out vs. fall asleep: I once listened to a HemiSync recording, and after a little while it made a "click", just like the cd-player couldn't track it properly, so I looked at the cd player and it had skipped about 20 minutes, impossible, as it would have taken some time for the sound head to move, and I looked at my watch, I remembered the time when I layed me down, and the watch, too, was twenty minutes later. So, there was a time gap of twenty minutes, it was a click-out, and I absolutely know nothing of what had happened during that time. It's a very odd experience. Spooky

Hey Spooky,

Thanks for more insights from your experience repertoire. Last night I ordered a new copy of Moen's fifth book from www.Buy.com. I would normally order from www.Amazon.com, but I was only buying one book and the cost of the book was about $4 cheaper at buy.com; the shipping from either sellers was about the same. One of the businesses that we own, which we just started, is a non-profit used book store, so it sort of bothered me to be paying new book prices; but when there is a need, there is a need. What can I say? My wife and I started a used book store in honor of our recently deceased son who at the very young age of 19 ended his life. We are still grieving over his untimely death which is less than a year ago. Yes it was his death that spurred me onto my present course of delving into these arcane matters. All of our profits are to be donated to charitable causes. I've made a lot of money in for-profit ventures and suddenly I find myself in the realm of non-profits.

Your suggestions, which you credit to Moen, are very good. I can see how a progressive approach toward meditation will result in more little successes which eventually will lead to the big meditation kahuna.

Several weeks ago, after having reread a portion of Jane Robert's Seth books, I forced myself to start a dream journal. I have one right next to my pillow on my bed with a pen. The times I've had dreams and were able to recall some of them, I've managed to scribble some memories of them. Looking over the notes I can see a distinctly different recallability. The first few notes were vague and broad, but the most recent one went to greater length with more details.

Start small and move slowly. Eventually we'll get bigger and move quicker!

I have a philosophical quandary about Seth's suggested sleep schedules. Seth suggested sleeping as much as needed, not as much as forced. In his parlance, go to sleep and wake up when you want to. Then conduct business in the physical world till tired, then go to sleep again. By doing this, Seth said we should fall into a natural sleep/wake cycle of about five hours each. Seth said by doing this we will be more aware of our dream state since the separation of awareness of the dream state and the physical state wouldn't be that overt. The way we conduct our lives now, we sleep longer and stay awake longer, creating a schism between work and sleep, or physical world versus the dream world. My question is this: since we are in the physical world, why mustn't we stay in the physical world? Why even delve into the dream world? We will have our time, so to speak, in the dream world forever anyway when our physical world ends. It's akin to asking: why shouldn't we render unto Caesar, what is Caesar's? Or, to keep the thoughts flowing: why act like Greeks when we are in Rome (itself a play on when one is in Rome, one must act Roman)?

Hi Ronny,
sad thing about your son. I hope your activities triggered by his leaving can help you cope with it.

Why are we dreaming? Well, don't expect I'll explain it! First of all, when we speak of being in the physical-being in the nonphysical, that's very simplified. Every experience, thought, imagination etc. which isn't directly caused by physical input isn't really purely physical. In Monroe speak, we are "phasing" all the time. So I'd say waking and sleeping are not totally divided worlds, but states of a different center focus.
  Most, if not all higher mammals do sleep. I watched some cats showing all signs of dreaming. Beneath the simple statement that sleep is a biological necessity, sleep is necessary to keep balanced. Without sleep, we would get lost in all the data we're confronted with, through sleeping and dreaming we reprocess the data, weigh them and sort them into categories. As well, we seem to need sleep to maintain our personality, our own viewpoint and opinion; without it, all starts to be the same for us, a million tiny bits of perceptions without meaning, driving us crazy. Another interesting thing is, when sleep deprivated, people eventually start hallucinating. We could interprete this as the thinning of the veil between the physical and the nonphysical, physical input, nonphysical occurances, imaginations, and compositions of all that cannot any longer be filtered and sorted correctly, a big blur and chaos is the result. So, when Seth/Roberts is suggesting short waking/sleeping periods, it might indeed result in a stronger bleedthrough of both states, but we're still able to identify the sources/places of our experiences, due to the still divided states of awake-sleeping. The final thing is the idea of a sort of nourishing of our soul/consciousness, going back to our home, recharge, receive guidance. Though the idea is common, I don't know of any first hand accounts of people who remembered this sort of thing.

So to say, as a Greek in Rome, well you remain a Greek, only being in Rome (with a bit foggy memory of your home though)  :) .

Spooky

Ronny says: My question is this: since we are in the physical world, why mustn't we stay in the physical world? Why even delve into the dream world? We will have our time, so to speak, in the dream world forever anyway when our physical world ends. It's akin to asking: why shouldn't we render unto Caesar, what is Caesar's? Or, to keep the thoughts flowing: why act like Greeks when we are in Rome (itself a play on when one is in Rome, one must act Roman)?
_____

sounds like Madonna talking: lyrics follow: we are living in a material world, and I am a material girl..la la la.
____
do as the Romans do and you well know you'll get what the Romans got. the way to render to Caesar his due is to scrutinize what Caesar is doing with our money. that's only the first step, to ask questions is left brained..to implement the answers is to receive those answers through receptive area of the right brained.

why dream? why explore dreams, why bother? because we are the dreamwalkers whether we want to be or not. we cannot deny we are this thing too, as well we cannot deny we operate through the flesh and love concrete evidence. it's like asking the egg or the chicken came first?  the chicken was here first. time is a movie.
_____

Spooky, I'm reading Ultimate Journeys, Monroe went home and describes it. He found what he termed "the basic."
I think I found the basic also. it's more or less, getting a known Ronny, and proceding from that known, to implement into the physical area, but the two, exploration and manifestation into physical are having to work in cycles of sleep and wakefulness, of C1 and phasing, back and forth. after awhile the two cycles eventually balance out, from what you are doing, persevering in self study, of human consciousness.

without a dream, a man is nothing.

Hi Alysia, "the basic"? What chapter is it? I still have only a German translation, and some keywords might be changed.

Spooky

Greetings,

I'm backtracking here in an attempt to catch up  ;)

Ronny, you are probably right if you infer that daily living is more important than interest in the afterlife. We are sent to earth for earthly reasons. However a consideration that comes into play is that many people in contemporary cultures aren't fulfilling their potential in daily life due to the spiritual warps and holes in current culture.
I think that the spiritual aspect of religion has been overlayed by fears and anxieties or by social concerns. So we come to spiritual explorers like Moen and Monroe to find out what it's truly all about. Here we find that we can help others ( an earth-related activity) as well as helping our own souls by retrieving and visiting in the spiritual realms/ focus levels. That's why we get involved.
Do you have concerns about the validity of helping in that way?

And another question for Ronny,
The repeatabliltiy of an experience is proven (indicated?), it seems to me, by the number of testimonies on the web by people who've experienced 'afterlife explorations,' NDEs, etc.
How is 'repeatability' defined?
I hope it's not too narrow a definition because the part of humans that is involved in these explorations isn't interested in repeating itself, it seems.  It always appears to be seeking relationship or the healing of breaks in relationships-- human to human or human to God/Source. Data can be developed on this, I'm sure!

As you note, the best way to motivate any further involvement is to make sure you have shared the experience. I think Bruce's Guidebook will get you to that goal  in the most direct way.

Betson

spooky2 wrote on Oct 23^rd, 2008 at 5:52pm:

Hi Alysia, "the basic"? What chapter is it? I still have only a German translation, and some keywords might be changed. Spooky

Hi Spooky, I will try to find the page, in general, I started rereading this book from the middle. here something interesting:

quote: There is a broad field of energy which for convenience is called M (band)  It is virtually unrecognized in our contemporary civilization.
It is the only energy field common to and operational both within and outside time/space, and is present in all physical  matter.
Pg 185
alysia speaketh: the M band chapter has much to do with the influences of interaction with one another, as in the consensus agreement areas. it reminds me of holographic mind creation areas; also mentioned is there is no God as we think of god in traditional concept. as a person who likes to study religion and spiritual paths, I find Monroe conceding he wants to meet just once, The Ultimate Designer. It is difficult, even for this pioneering explorer to conceive totally, that it is we who are in control of this world and who have created it jointly.
However, Bob is not interested in projecting any sort of religion, nor does he use terms such as spirituality. He uses physical and nonphysical forms of life for a reason.  basically, because on this planet it is a belief system planet, of variants.

Bob's main premise is to help humanity to realize we do indeed continue, that life in the body simply means we exit the body for a nonphysical life station. He wants to put people's fears aside regarding death. A tall order.  It is my own intentions.

found it: page 221: In this obe story, Bob had been obe for longer than he should have. the body had grown cold. His I/there told him to get back to his body quickly. It took several days to return his body to normal operation. He goes on to assert, although the body returned to normal function, Bob's essence of himself, did not. There was, he said, not simply a Different Overview, but "a remembering of unlimited freedom, an ever so slight glimpse of an ultimate option.  and he continues, "And I knew that I had the missing Basic!

In Ultimate Journey, we do not find the answers to our own personal journeys. What we find is one man's extraordinary journey, and finding out what and who he was, and what gifts he could give out here, and bring back to his I/there.
So he was interested in service ideals, and this related to the above about informing people you will indeed meet up again with those whom you love, who have gone ahead of you.

It was through Monroe I learned I was capable of doing a retrieval many years ago. love, alysia

spooky2 wrote on Oct 22^nd, 2008 at 7:04pm:

Hi Ronny, sad thing about your son. I hope your activities triggered by his leaving can help you cope with it. Why are we dreaming? Well, don't expect I'll explain it! First of all, when we speak of being in the physical-being in the nonphysical, that's very simplified. Every experience, thought, imagination etc. which isn't directly caused by physical input isn't really purely physical. In Monroe speak, we are "phasing" all the time. So I'd say waking and sleeping are not totally divided worlds, but states of a different center focus.   Most, if not all higher mammals do sleep. I watched some cats showing all signs of dreaming. Beneath the simple statement that sleep is a biological necessity, sleep is necessary to keep balanced. Without sleep, we would get lost in all the data we're confronted with, through sleeping and dreaming we reprocess the data, weigh them and sort them into categories. As well, we seem to need sleep to maintain our personality, our own viewpoint and opinion; without it, all starts to be the same for us, a million tiny bits of perceptions without meaning, driving us crazy. Another interesting thing is, when sleep deprivated, people eventually start hallucinating. We could interprete this as the thinning of the veil between the physical and the nonphysical, physical input, nonphysical occurances, imaginations, and compositions of all that cannot any longer be filtered and sorted correctly, a big blur and chaos is the result. So, when Seth/Roberts is suggesting short waking/sleeping periods, it might indeed result in a stronger bleedthrough of both states, but we're still able to identify the sources/places of our experiences, due to the still divided states of awake-sleeping. The final thing is the idea of a sort of nourishing of our soul/consciousness, going back to our home, recharge, receive guidance. Though the idea is common, I don't know of any first hand accounts of people who remembered this sort of thing. So to say, as a Greek in Rome, well you remain a Greek, only being in Rome (with a bit foggy memory of your home though)  :) . Spooky

Thanks Spooky for your additional thoughts. Monroe considers our existences (be they physical or non-physical) to be phasing. Seth had spoken about that via Roberts. Seth stated our physical life is not a solid-state continuum, but a sort of oscillation between physical state and non-physical (I don't recall exactly what term(s) he used for the non-physical). It is also interesting to note that Monroe did go to Jane Roberts and apparently did have a reading conducted by Roberts; nothing more was said or written about that episode either by Roberts or Monrow (if the board users know of what transpired at that meeting I would be appreciate knowing what happened).

I agree with you 100% of the dichotomy between physical, waking existence versus the dream state. In fact, you stated what I perceive to be the "truth" rather succinctly.

Implicit in your closing comment, i.e. "you remain a Greek, only being in Rome," one can never be totally Roman even in the NOW, or in the future, since one is Greek by origination. This conclusion however, is fraught with logical perils. What about being Greek in the past? When did one become Greek in the past to the point that one can never be Roman, even in the NOW or in the FUTURE?

LaffingRain wrote on Oct 23^rd, 2008 at 2:53pm:

Ronny says: My question is this: since we are in the physical world, why mustn't we stay in the physical world? Why even delve into the dream world? We will have our time, so to speak, in the dream world forever anyway when our physical world ends. It's akin to asking: why shouldn't we render unto Caesar, what is Caesar's? Or, to keep the thoughts flowing: why act like Greeks when we are in Rome (itself a play on when one is in Rome, one must act Roman)? _____ sounds like Madonna talking: lyrics follow: we are living in a material world, and I am a material girl..la la la. ____ do as the Romans do and you well know you'll get what the Romans got. the way to render to Caesar his due is to scrutinize what Caesar is doing with our money. that's only the first step, to ask questions is left brained..to implement the answers is to receive those answers through receptive area of the right brained. why dream? why explore dreams, why bother? because we are the dreamwalkers whether we want to be or not. we cannot deny we are this thing too, as well we cannot deny we operate through the flesh and love concrete evidence. it's like asking the egg or the chicken came first?  the chicken was here first. time is a movie. _____ Spooky, I'm reading Ultimate Journeys, Monroe went home and describes it. He found what he termed "the basic." I think I found the basic also. it's more or less, getting a known Ronny, and proceding from that known, to implement into the physical area, but the two, exploration and manifestation into physical are having to work in cycles of sleep and wakefulness, of C1 and phasing, back and forth. after awhile the two cycles eventually balance out, from what you are doing, persevering in self study, of human consciousness. without a dream, a man is nothing.

Your post is another way of looking at the interaction of our dream/wake state, and how a good balance of the two will result in finding solutions from the dreamworld to apply to our waking state.

What also has been written, reported, alluded to, etc., is the impact the physical world has on the dreamstate. From both Seth and Monroe, we know the physical state is a school for learning for us. The physical state apparently speeds up the process of learning for us. In the dreamstate, the learning process has no schedule (as defined by passing of time, which is one of the greatest benefits of the physical state), and hence can go off tangentially to a literal infinity. How is this shown by Monroe's research? How is this shown by researchers such as Moen, et al? By both these humans reporting that when in the dreamstate, other entities who occupy that region cannot communicate with lower level Focus fixated "humans," but the humans-in-dreamstate-form are the ones who can interact with these humans better.

Even Seth stated without the prior connections that Seth and Jane Roberts established in previous existences, that Seth would not be able to manifest his thoughts and beliefs. Monroe discovered that once his part of his complete soul finishes whatever the group needs to do, that the combined entity goes elsewhere (no longer at Focus levels) and can never come back in reincarnatable human forms. I think a board user applied the term "blink out" to show that once a soul group blinks out, that it can no longer reincarnate in human form, and that no entity has ever made it back to report back to us humans what happens in that area. Even Moen in his second book indicated that he doesn't know what happens after a soul blinks out.

Hi Ronnie. I haven't read a lot of Seth, except to get glimpses of how we create our personal reality with our thought forms, our beliefs.

so I may not be able to add much to your thread as I see you are comparing Monroe with the Seth stuff. I do this comparison thing also, but not with Seth material, a bit with Elias material however, which I have found Elias stuff less dry to read, yet along the same lines of creating one's personal reality.

My research is to align A Course in Miracles theology up alongside Monroe's journals and research. the two thought systems align perfectly with my beliefs. Also Elias would say each of us have been between 800 and 1200 personalities, as in lives lived, while Monroe likens the retrieval of these, are within our disc, and gathering them all together is when maximum velocity and winking out occurs, when all the selves are gathered.

winking out can align perfectly with such terms as ascension or graduation or enlightenment. I like Monroe's description "there is nothing here for me now." been there, done that. It would appear logically a soul comes here to "do it all."
Once it is all done, we continue elsewhere, and a great deal of discussion is done here about that, but conclusive only to the individual who has experience out of body, or phasing.
this type of exploration is still in it's beginning stages for humanity.

I was curious in the beginning why physical helpers were needed to wake up, or retrieve a nonphysical being, to the fact they had crossed or transitioned, while guides and helpers on that side of things, were unable to get the attention of the transitioned being, stuck in a belief that they were still physical, but perhaps dreaming.

As it is explained, we here in the physical vibration, align with the thought system, or vibratory rate of the deceased, at that level, as well, I think that is why we can get their attention.

where I do believe within those who get stuck in their various beliefs, it just had never occurred to them that  retrievers existed who do this work, and the nonphysical helpers can see and understand these perfectly, and therefore can guide the retrievers to these. Also for newbies here, Monroe reports most of us make it to focus 27, the way station quite efficiently on our own upon death. as well, a number of retrievals are those within our own disc, our own selves, and even our childhood selves that has fragmentized from truama.

don't want to get into the holographics thing here, but I do believe portions of ourselves can break away and need retrieving as well.

the idea of physical life, of a soul, is to eventually bring back a gift to the entire group soul or disc. such as some accomplishment which in some way aided the evolvement of mankind. it can be anything which is related to service. even to a low paying job done without complaint, is also a gift all the way up to being in positions of power and still being honest in service.

In ACIM, it is more simply written, that we are to remember all our brothers are One with us. in the same way all your lives are One with you.  well, I'm still reading Ultimate Journeys and have to get back to it..I think Monroe is still gathering us all together, but blast off is not supposed to occur until 1,000 linear years...so finding the edges of infinity is definetely not one of my lucrative pastimes, as there's too much to do and see right here before this life span is up. hope to hear more from you Ronny.

http://images.bravenet.com/common/images/smilies/wave.gif

Alysia, thanks for digging it up, the missing basic, I remember it, Monroe's, so to say, pre-ultimate journey; it was his "aha" moment, when he put it all together, the question "have you brought some gifts with you?" the retrievals and the re-completion of his I/There to get ready to wink out. Yes, maybe it is a sort of source he went to, though not the final one probably, as Monroe's UJ seems not to speak of the ultimate or a final goal, but more of neverending steps in evolution.

Ronny, yes, your mind is certainly not sleeping! It's true what you said about the Greek-in-Rome thing. Of course, this thinking in distinct steps/states is a simplification which doesn't work when thinking of it consequently. In fact, as long as we're within time, we never are "now" and "here" alone, but as well we're all that we've ever been. (As long as it is not underlayed a digital time structure; this would rise some problems, such as the question of the connectedness of the single bits) Similarly, I see the consciousness states as interwoven, only the focus wanders between different states, and bandwidths. But this is something I lack of further direct insights, such as the structure of "me", if there are different versions of me who maybe don't share all of their knowledge with each other, and whether there is a "central" (I/There, disk) which is coordinating all of me, or if it's structured somehow differently.

Spooky

about the thing Spooky said, I'm reducing it into my practical level again, so sorry if I mess up your thought..about the parts or ourselves which do not communicate with the other parts, example of Monroe: it's said in ultimate Journey he went to visit with his future self, and there was communication of some sort between  the two that are one.

(I don't know the page but sure I'll come across it shortly) so anyhoo, this sort of experience does not occur for most of us, speaking in general, to actually meet up with the future self and have a flicker of recognition on both of the selve's part. (sort of holographic isn't it?)

for many though, the review of a past life is much easier to gather together and we have much literature to point to that.
now, duh, where was I? I know I was going somewhere with this thought, lol. I'm disappearing. oh here I go. it's about C1.

C1 is limited awareness by definition, in order to have a defined ELS experience with an intention, it would have to be a limited focus into a certain locale and general climate conducive to having or attaining that experience of a particular lifetime.

I would say that we all can achieve the communication we desire with all our selves at some point. perhaps by preparation and opening to the possibilities of that.  I'm thinking of how at night while the body sleeps, I'm aware I'm sometimes here, with you all, I get images of our togetherness. snatches of conversation to unfold, etc.

in the context of how much info can my finite mind hold within an infinity of knowledge without making the present personality jarred loose from it's foundations, I cannot say that it is wise to become dissatisfied to the extreme with our lack of knowing everything.

rather, I am expressing faith in that we are advancing efficiently within the plan as well as can be expected by experiencing limitation, and going ahead despite of limitation.

sort of new age huh? lol.

Sorry, I haven't been attending to some of the responses here, but a friend of over 30 years just passed away this Saturday and I'm in the process of taking care of some of his affairs.

Meanwhile, I've looked over my last eight years and have noticed I've had an average of one person, either very close friend, or relative, or immediate family, die in each of those eight years.

2001 -- a close business/friend who died destitute and didn't leave enough money to be buried.
2002 -- a brother-in-law who died of complications from a heart attack at the age of 50
2005 -- an ex who died at the age of 56 of lung cancer
2006 -- a friend and psychic who died while I was out of town
2006 -- a business friend I've known since the late 1970's who died of a blood disease
2007 -- my only child
2008 -- recently a friend who I've known since 1976 from a failed liver
2008 -- a friend who died at the age of 80

I guess the spirits are directing me to start a new direction.

Hello Ronnie:

Some people won't like me for this, but here I go. Think more than twice before you put any source on a pedestal. Jane Roberts Seth might have some good things to say, but she also has some questionable things to say. Don't make the mistake of limiting yourself to that sleep pattern thing.

For a number of reasons I believe Jane Roberts made up Seth. Wouldn't be the first nor the last time somebody makes up a channeled entity. I won't provide a complete list of why I believe Jane Roberts made up Seth, but here are a couple of reasons. For one thing, I found an internet article where a man who worked for Jane Robert's publisher stated that it was known by her publisher than Jane made up Seth. He also stated that before she would supposedly channel Seth, her husband would cruise the room and speak to people, and relay the information he obtained to Jane so she could make use of it. I saw a Seth video where Jane suddenly broke out of her Seth voice for a moment so she could say: "We'll take a break in a moment."  This seemed very odd. There are various other reasons, but I'll stop here.

You'd probably be better off considering what out of body explorers like Robert Monroe, Bruce Moen and William Buhlman have to say rather than what supposed channeled entities have to say. Not that out of body explorers have all of the answers, but they don't tend to claim that they have all of the answers. They simply share what they've experienced, while channeled sources assert that they are some kind of all knowing being and therefore infallible. If one relies on them too heavily, one will just end up taking on a belief system.

Regarding making contact with your I-there, I've made contact with my I-there in various ways, and my way of doing so didn't precisely match Robert Monroe's and Bruce Moen's way of doing so. Each of us will do so in our own way.

I believe what is key is to get over the psychological factors that limit us. The more I have done so the more my energetic system has been cleansed, and the easier it has become for me to make contact with my spirit friends and have various experiences.

Regarding diet, I eat a very healthy vegetarian diet, don't drink, don't take drugs, don't smoke, and don't consume caffein. My spirit guidance has provided me with tips on how it is important to be careful about what I put into my body. I can't say that this is necessary for everybody.

I've found that growing in love is far more important than going out of body. If you grow in love, it'll become easier to make contact with beings of love and light and explore various realms.

One good thing about making contact with my I-there is that I found out each part of an I-there doesn't have to incarnate numerous times. It is a team effort that I-there members share together. There may be occasions where parts incarnate more than once. People receive conflicting information on this. I've always received the message that each part incarnates only once, while Bruce seems to believe that parts incarnate more than once. It is hard to say why such a discrepancy exists.  I'm not certain, but I doubt that Bruce believes that parts/probes have to incarnate numerous times. Bruce wrote of meeting up with his I-there/disk members during his explorations. As far as I know, these disk members didn't speak of the enlightenment some sources state you have to obtain before you stop reincarnating, yet they were able to rejoin their I-there/disk.

I've found that people who have explored the spirit World have a much more flexible idea about reincarnation than sources that haven't explored the spirit World. Don't worry about being a soul who isn't old enough to obtain what you hope to obtain. You're interest is the key. Get ready for some surprises. People often find out that their spiritual progression doesn't work out like they expected it to work out.  

Albert

I agree with you on some of your perceptive comments. I'd like to address them with some of my thoughts. I haven't figured out how to insert new text within a quote yet, but I will insert my thoughts as total caps within the quote so my thoughts will be separated from your original comments.


recoverer wrote on Oct 30^th, 2008 at 3:55pm:

Hello Ronnie: Some people won't like me for this, but here I go. Think more than twice before you put any source on a pedestal. Jane Roberts Seth might have some good things to say, but she also has some questionable things to say. Don't make the mistake of limiting yourself to that sleep pattern thing. I AGREE WITH YOU IN THE ABOVE COMMENTS. SINCE I AM DEALING IN AN AREA THAT IS NOT QUANTIFIABLE, BUT ONLY SUBJECTIVELY VERIFIED, I TRY NOT TO LEAVE MYSELF OPEN TO INCORRECT CONCLUSIONS. WHAT IS IMPORTANT IS TO KNOW THE METHODS, BUT THE OBJECTIVES OF THOSE METHODS. IN THE CASE OF SETH SUGGESTING A SHORTER SLEEP-WAKE CYCLE, THE OBJECTIVE IS TO LESSEN THE SEPARATION BETWEEN THE TWO STATES. IN LONGER SLEEP-WAKE CYCLES, THE SEPARATION BETWEEN THE TWO COMPONENTS SEPARATES THE DREAM STATE FROM THE WAKE STATE. For a number of reasons I believe Jane Roberts made up Seth. Wouldn't be the first nor the last time somebody makes up a channeled entity. I won't provide a complete list of why I believe Jane Roberts made up Seth, but here are a couple of reasons. For one thing, I found an internet article where a man who worked for Jane Robert's publisher stated that it was known by her publisher than Jane made up Seth. He also stated that before she would supposedly channel Seth, her husband would cruise the room and speak to people, and relay the information he obtained to Jane so she could make use of it. I saw a Seth video where Jane suddenly broke out of her Seth voice for a moment so she could say: "We'll take a break in a moment."  This seemed very odd. There are various other reasons, but I'll stop here. THE THOUGHT THAT ROBERTS MADE UP SETH ALSO IS AN OPEN HYPOTHESIS THAT I AM OPERATING UNDER. HENCE, MY DETAILED AND PRECISE STUDY OF SETH'S TEACHINGS. YES, I AM READING ROBERTS BOOKS WITH A FINE TOOTH COMB, LOOKING FOR INCONSISTENCIES AND NON SEQUITURS. ALSO, AT THE SAME TIME I NEED TO BE OPEN TO THE OBJECTIVES OF SETH'S TEACHINGS AND WORK BACKWARDS TO DETERMINE IF THE METHODOLOGIES ACHIEVE THOSE OBJECTIVES, AND WHETHER OR NOT OTHER METHODS CAN ACHIEVE THE SAME OBJECTIVES. AS TO OTHER SOURCES MAKING CLAIMS THAT ROBERTS CONDUCTED PRE-STAGING, HOW ARE WE TO KNOW THAT THE SOURCE OF THAT INFORMATION MIGHT NOT ALSO BE QUESTIONABLE? I CHECKED YOUTUBE.COM AND FOUND A FEW OF ROBERTS VIDEOS AND I SAW A FEW TIMES WHEN ROBERTS DID "BREAK UP" HER TRANCE WITH RATHER INCONGRUOUS ACTIONS. ONE WOULD THINK THAT IF ONE WERE TO MOVE OUT OF A TRANCE THAT THE ACTIONS MIGHT FOLLOW A MORE ORDAINED WINDING DOWN; BUT WHO IS TO SAY THAT ROBERTS ACTION OF GETTING OUT A TRANCE IS NOT EFFECTIVE, I.E. HOW DO WE KNOW IT ISN'T ACCURATE? You'd probably be better off considering what out of body explorers like Robert Monroe, Bruce Moen and William Buhlman have to say rather than what supposed channeled entities have to say. Not that out of body explorers have all of the answers, but they don't tend to claim that they have all of the answers. They simply share what they've experienced, while channeled sources assert that they are some kind of all knowing being and therefore infallible. If one relies on them too heavily, one will just end up taking on a belief system. HERE AGAIN IS MY OWN DILEMMA. IT APPEARS AS IF THE TOOLS AND APPROACHES WE USE TO INVESTIGATE THE OBSERVATIONS FROM THESE VARIOUS EXPLORERS ARE ALSO SUBJECT TO CHANGE. HOW AM I TO BELIEVE THAT THESE OBSERVATIONS FROM THESE EXPLORERS MIGHT NOT BE THEIR OWN BELIEF SYSTEMS (PER MONROE'S TERMINOLOGY)? PERHAPS THERE ARE NOT FOCUS LEVELS EXCEPT THOSE THAT ARE DEIGNED TO EXIST WITHIN MONROE'S BELIEF SYSTEM. AND SINCE IT IS MONROE WHO CONJURED THESE FOCUS LEVELS UP, AND WE AS POTENTIAL APOSTLES FOLLOW IN NOT ONLY THE CREATION BUT ALSO THE REINFORCEMENT OF THESE FOCUS LEVELS, WE MAY BE ABETTING THE CREATION OF MONROE'S ONLY BELIEF SYSTEMS. Regarding making contact with your I-there, I've made contact with my I-there in various ways, and my way of doing so didn't precisely match Robert Monroe's and Bruce Moen's way of doing so. Each of us will do so in our own way. THE VAGARIES OF THE I-THERE, THEY-HERE, MY-US, AD ABSURDUM, CREATES A LOT OF DOUBTS WITHIN MY OWN MIND, WHATEVER THAT MAY NOW BE. I believe what is key is to get over the psychological factors that limit us. The more I have done so the more my energetic system has been cleansed, and the easier it has become for me to make contact with my spirit friends and have various experiences. SINCE I'VE NOT BEEN SUCCESSFUL IN COMMUNICATING WITH THE SPIRITS ON THE OTHER SIDE, I CANNOT VERIFY OR CONDONE ANY OF YOUR OBSERVATIONS AND EXPERIENCES. AND EVEN IF I WERE ABLE TO COMMUNICATE WITH THOSE ON THE OTHER SIDE, HOW DO I KNOW IF WHAT I'VE EXPERIENCED IS A REALITY, OR JUST MY OWN CREATION OF MY OWN REALITY? Regarding diet, I eat a very healthy vegetarian diet, don't drink, don't take drugs, don't smoke, and don't consume caffein. My spirit guidance has provided me with tips on how it is important to be careful about what I put into my body. I can't say that this is necessary for everybody. THIS IS A PROBLEM FOR ME TO ACCEPT WHEN OTHER EXPLORERS TELL ME THEIR SPIRIT GUIDES ARE ADDRESSING THEM. HOW DO I KNOW THE SPIRIT GUIDE ISN'T A SEPARATE PERSONALITY CONSTRUCT OF A MIND THAT CANNOT INTEGRATE WELL? COMMON PSYCHOANALYTICAL PROBLEMS ABOUND WHEREIN SEPARATE COMPONENTS OF PERSONALITIES ARE NOT INTEGRATED TO FORM A FULLY WELL FUNCTIONING PERSON IN OUR WORLD. SCHIZOPHRENIA, IS AN EXTREME EXAMPLE OF DISSOCAITED PERSONALITIES. I've found that growing in love is far more important than going out of body. If you grow in love, it'll become easier to make contact with beings of love and light and explore various realms. ON A PHYSICAL LEVEL, WE HAVE ALWAYS HAD PROBLEMS UNDERSTANDING WHAT LOVE IS, WHAT TYPES OF LOVE THERE ARE. WHEN I READ YOUR COMMENT ABOUT GROWIING IN LOVE, OR MONROE FEELING AN ENTITY'S LOVE, ETC., I AM BEFUDDLED AS TO WHAT IT IS THEY ARE EXPERIENCING. IS IT A WARM FUZZY FEELING? IS IT THE SACRIFICE OF ONE'S LIFE FOR ANOTHER? WHAT IS THIS LOVE IDEA THAT CAN SO MINUTELY BE ENCAPSULATED NOT BY ACTIONS, BUT MERELY BY PRESENCE OF BEING THERE? One good thing about making contact with my I-there is that I found out each part of an I-there doesn't have to incarnate numerous times. It is a team effort that I-there members share together. There may be occasions where parts incarnate more than once. People receive conflicting information on this. I've always received the message that each part incarnates only once, while Bruce seems to believe that parts incarnate more than once. It is hard to say why such a discrepancy exists.  I'm not certain, but I doubt that Bruce believes that parts/probes have to incarnate numerous times. Bruce wrote of meeting up with his I-there/disk members during his explorations. As far as I know, these disk members didn't speak of the enlightenment some sources state you have to obtain before you stop reincarnating, yet they were able to rejoin their I-there/disk. I JUST FINISHED MOEN'S FIRST BOOK, HALF-WAY THROUGH THE SECOND, WITH BOOK THREE AND BOOK FOUR TO GO. I READ THE DISK PART QUICKLY SO I DON'T KNOW THIS CONCEPT OF MOEN'S DISK IDEA WELL ENOUGH TO COMMENT. YET, HERE AGAIN, FROM YOUR OWN EXPERIENCE AND MOEN'S OWN EXPERIENCE, ARE TWO DIFFERENT PERSPECTIVES IN REINCARNATION. I CAN UNDERSTAND THIS TO BE SIMILAR TO THE BLIND MEN CHECKING OUT THE ELEPHANT: ONE FEELS THE EARS AND THINKS THE ELEPHANT IS FLAT; ANOTHER FEELS THE TUSK AND THINKS THE ELEPHANT IS HARD AND ELONGATED; ETC., ETC. I CAN ARGUE THAT YOU BOTH ARE SEEING REINCARNATION FROM DIFFERENT PERSPECTIVES, AND YOU BOTH CAN BE CORRECT. FOR MYSELF, I HAVE TO BE ABLE TO UNDERSTAND WHERE EACH OF YOU ARE COMING FROM IN ORDER TO UNDERSTAND THE PARADIGM OF REINCARNATION WELL ENOUGH TO DISCOURSE ON IT. I've found that people who have explored the spirit World have a much more flexible idea about reincarnation than sources that haven't explored the spirit World. Don't worry about being a soul who isn't old enough to obtain what you hope to obtain. You're interest is the key. Get ready for some surprises. People often find out that their spiritual progression doesn't work out like they expected it to work out.   HERE AGAIN IS A QUESTION I HAVE. PERHAPS IT ISN'T THE ACTUAL EXPLORATION THAT MAKES US MORE FLEXIBLE, BUT THAT WE ARE ALREADY PREDETERMINED FOR FLEXIBILITY BECAUSE WE DO HAVE THE INNATE DESIRE TO EXPLORE. IF ONE IS A HAMMER, THE WORLD IS NOTHING BUT A BUNCH OF NAILS. IF ONE IS A CARPENTER, THEN THE HAMMER IS BUT ONE TOOL TO SEE THE WORLD OTHER THAN THE WORLD BEING A BUNCH OF NAILS. WHAT IS IT THAT CAUSES US TO BE SO OPEN? ARE WE INNATELY BORN WITH THIS OPENNESS? Albert

Ronnie:

It sounds like you're willing to question sources. I believe this is a good thing.  Even though I believe that Robert Monroe was an honest man and believe that Bruce Moen is an honest man,  I can't say for certain that everything they say is true. Until I experience something for myself, I don't know. This said, there are a number of things that Robert and Bruce have found that I also found. I must add that their explorations are more extensive than my explorations.

Regarding Bruce and I not finding the exact same thing about reincarnation, I've found that even though you can find that certain sources are false by considering the contradictions, this isn't always the case. Sometimes genuine sources contradict each other. I believe this is because our higher self/spirit guidance often helps us have experiences, and beings who represent the light understand that different people require different information.

Consider near death experiences.  Even though they have a lot of similarities, they aren't always the same. One explanation is that people experience as much truth as they allow themselves to experience. If they have a fundamentalist mind set, their NDE might take on such a form. I believe this way of thinking applies to what they can open up to during an experience, and what they can assimilate after an experience is over. I also believe it is a matter of NDE people being spiritual messangers, and different people need to receive different kinds of messages.

There are fundamentalists who believe that NDEs are created by satan. They'll only accept an NDE that is Biblical in nature. Some NDEs such as Howard Storm's NDE might serve the purpose of providing a message that has ingredients that a fundamentalist will approve of, yet it also has a love message. If a fundamentalist gets inspired by the love message enough, he or she might open up to considering other NDEs and sources of information that have an even bigger love message and that are less fundamentalist in nature.

I figure Bruce and I received differing information about reincarnation not because one or both of us experienced a projection of our imagination, but because for some reason it was determined that it would be best for us to be provided with differing information. There could be factors in play that beings from the spirit World are well aware of that we aren't aware of.  Whatever the case, It doesn't seem as if either of us think of reincarnation in a restrictive sense. We both believe that there is a lot of flexability according to need and want.


Regarding love, I believe love is a state of being where you love everybody else unconditionally.  The most wonderful level of happiness is experienced when you open up to love at this level.  Factors such as old hurts, pent up anger, prejudices, fears and limiting beliefs prevent us from experiencing love to a significant degree. The more we let go of such things, the more we are able to naturally live according to love. I believe it becomes easier to do so when we move on to the spirit World due to varying energetic parameters. This doesn't mean that our limiting beliefs and emotional attachments automatically go away.

A late P.S.

Regarding the possibility of schizophrenia, each person needs to monitor his or her experiences in an honest way in order to find out if this is what is taking place.

In my case, even though there was information I received through spiritual means that I was able to confirm, the key for me was making contact with my higher self/spirit guidance in a manner where it became clear that I am in contact with beings who represent the light.  This is due to the kind of experiences I have had and the nature of the messages I have received, and how much making contact with spirit guidance has helped me. If you find that physical problems and mental limitations go away and that it becomes easier to live according to happiness, peace, love and an inner way of knowing, it becomes really hard to doubt that you are dealing with something that is a part of divine truth.

Ronny, about your thought Monroes system could be his own belief system, and those explorers just follow his suggestions: It could be true. But  there's an important add to make. In my explorations, your thought was mine, too. And it didn't stop me. So, what I came up with was, it doesn't matter so much if these focus levels are really this way accurately divisible, or if Focus27 is a re-built human environment to become familiar to the nonphysical when you're just made the transition, or if retrievals are actually about ex-physical people who are stuck. The important thing is, yes, this system may be a made-up reality, a belief system, but the ultimate truth beyond that, as far as I found out, is that every reality is made up, and that every reality takes place within a frame which is provided by someone/something greater than we are, up to where we re-merge with the all-that-is. This way, there are systems which after a short distance will keep you caught within a dead end. And then there are those systems which obviously are producing remarkable results, matching with a lot of things of our psychologic-physical reality and provide us with tremendous outlooks. We are constantly building our reality, and there are major persons in this, such as RAM and Bruce, and minor, not so well-known persons in this, such as you and me.

Spooky

http://afterlife-knowledge.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?num=1210038473

Listen to these and go and buy his book :)

pedigree wrote on Nov 6^th, 2008 at 7:43am:

http://afterlife-knowledge.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?num=1210038473 Listen to these and go and buy his book :)

The above link contributed by Pedigree directs to a post by spooky2 that then links to several videos posted on youtube.com. The videos were of audio interviews of author/physicist Tom Campbell by host George Noory from his program, "Coast to Coast."

Thank you for the reference. Tom Campbell wrote three books, a trilogy, with the main title of "My Big Toe." The trilogy is about 800 pages in length and offers the insights of a physicist working and researching in the area of altered consciousness. I will order the book for my continued research into this area. This information should speed up my acquisition of knowledge in this area.

Ronny wrote on Nov 6^th, 2008 at 12:40pm:

This information should speed up my acquisition of knowledge in this area.

It is one thing to gain knowledge by intellectually understanding everything but another to actually experience it. The latter the more important I'm beginning to understand. :o

I've found that spiritual experiences have great value. This is especially true since spiritual experiences can take place in a manner where you are certain of what you're experiencing and understanding.  Considering things intellectually has never influenced me to the same degree. Truth doesn't have to accord to our logic.



pedigree wrote on Nov 7^th, 2008 at 2:59am:

Ronny wrote on Nov 6th, 2008 at 12:40pm: This information should speed up my acquisition of knowledge in this area. It is one thing to gain knowledge by intellectually understanding everything but another to actually experience it. The latter the more important I'm beginning to understand. :o

Greetings,

Previously Ronnie said
" In the dreamstate, the learning process has no schedule
(as defined by passing of time, which is one of the greatest
benefits of the physical state),
and hence can go off tangentially to a literal infinity.
How is this shown by Monroe's research?"

On another thread, Spooky said "the consequences are enormous."

Going off to a literal infinity or determining the entire enormity of consequences can be established by a type of sampling. Infinity and enormity may not be possible to experience within one human lifetime.

Monroe went so many 'places,' both to know an area in depth and also to broaden the range of his explorations. The correlations and the variations he found led him to the experienced conclusion that he was sampling a literal infinity.

On one hand we can measure infinity forever; on another hand we can experience the attitudes that have created infinity forever.
To truly know infinity we must use both means.

Ronny wrote on Oct 20^th, 2008 at 5:50pm:

[smiley=cheesy.gif] I started to read Seth about 20 years ago, then Robert Monroe, then onto Michael Newton. Recently started reading Scott Rogo's works. I went to the Monroe Institute in April 2008, then found out about Bruce Moen's books. Now, I'm reading Moen's books while I'm rereading Seth. Gateway wasn't that great for me since I found myself "clicking out" while in the Cech unit all the time I was there. Meals were great, attendees very helpful, but found the week to be an expensive Rest & Recuperation. Went to Gateway not knowing what to expect, and still haven't been able to "get" it, yet. Working on it, though. Was a psychology major in college so I'm respectful of how the mind operates in creating illusions, allusions, and delusions. Immersing myself in Moen's books now, but wish I had read his works prior to the Gateway. Monroe's books opened my eyes, so to speak, about other consciousnesses, but no methodologies for getting There. Moen's works are more practical, as an engineer would have it always, and I've found them more helpful. Can someone toss me some ideas on how to effectively get from Here to There? Not a vegatarian, vegan, eat meat, don't meditate, drink coffee, alcohol sometimes, don't smoke, eat peanuts (a Scott Rogo No-No), and probably a bunch of other habits that makes it tough for me to get to There. Have the DVD's for Focus levels up to and including Focus 21. Use them now, but click out all the time.

Dear Ronny.
You have arrived at a very good place here.Here you will receive a great deal of sharing..I don;t know how old  you are...maybe compared to me younger...I think I am right there.
Seeking the Truth of What you Are is the most exciting journey there is in life.The most exciting and valuable element is finding it for yourself!!! Read the books,listen to us and all others.But finally you have to discover IT yourself!!You see no one can tell you where to start really..We all start from our own arena of ignorance/unknowing,not like anybody else.Its so unique its our peculiar and divinely personal journey.We have to start at the beginning of our life ...Birth..WE came to this world with a great and vast history. PAST lives with all of our Karma the things we did to others and that which was done to us.All through this is our long path of learning so it seems.So now we arrive in the NOW!NOW is the moment to start.,NOW is where you will find the True knowledge of who you really ARE!NOW is the the place where your emancipation will be known and realised.So look deeply into NOW.It holds all you need to know.Just look.Its all there.Be not afraid..Truth is beyond all human imagination.
Love Devayan

pedigree wrote on Nov 7^th, 2008 at 2:59am:

Ronny wrote on Nov 6th, 2008 at 12:40pm: This information should speed up my acquisition of knowledge in this area. It is one thing to gain knowledge by intellectually understanding everything but another to actually experience it. The latter the more important I'm beginning to understand. :o

An understanding of events is not as impactful as experiencing the event. I agree with you totally. Hence, my attempt in obtaining the actual experiences.

I just figured out how to quote within a quote by responding to posts with quotes.

Continuing .... I'm very left-brained so my "debilitation" is attributable to my need to understand events logically. Of course, earlier in my life I did experience a few OBE's and some psychic perceptions. I dismissed with them whent hey occured and continued to focus on my own development within the physical, mundane, logical world that follows rules and regulations. Of course, I'm certain there are rules and regulations that govern the spiritual state too, but due to their "infiniteness" we perceive the spiritual world as existing without rules and regulations.

I recall that Seth, in one of his discussions of Dreamwalkers in the dreamstate, the god-entity manifested it's externalization of creativity as a result of it's frustration with knowing it was creative but had no sublimation for that creativity. Somehow the god-entity self-created a channel, so to speak, to externalize it's own creative energies by creating each and every one of us. Through us, the god-entity continues to create. (I stand corrected if my interpretation of Seth in this area is incorrect.)




recoverer wrote on Nov 7^th, 2008 at 1:29pm:

I've found that spiritual experiences have great value. This is especially true since spiritual experiences can take place in a manner where you are certain of what you're experiencing and understanding.  Considering things intellectually has never influenced me to the same degree. Truth doesn't have to accord to our logic. pedigree wrote on Nov 7th, 2008 at 2:59am: Ronny wrote on Nov 6th, 2008 at 12:40pm: This information should speed up my acquisition of knowledge in this area. It is one thing to gain knowledge by intellectually understanding everything but another to actually experience it. The latter the more important I'm beginning to understand. :o

I'm revisiting Seth, as most of you can garner based on my comments in posts here.

Seth discusses the concept of "probable realities." The human mind creates thoughts. Even though each thought is not manifested in physical reality, ALL thoughts are created in the human mind (consciousness, I would guess) AND have probable reality lives. An example given by one of the Seth followers goes along these lines ...

Imagine a situation where you have to make a choice of either becoming a high falluting neurosurgeon or a lowly homeless person. If you chose to live out your physical life as a homeless person, your physical manifestation of that lifestyle is what you will experience in this world. On the other hand, the thought of becoming a neurosurgeon, at the time you were deciding what you wanted to be, was then created at that time, AND a "life" of a neurosurgeon was then created within one of your probable realities. Seth then said that the "life" of the neurosurgeon, as a thought form, would continue onwards by growing and developing within those parameters of a neurosurgeon.

Of course, this then led me to think about another choice: instead of a neurosurgeon that you and I have a vague understanding of, what if the other choice was to be an "Xyopphoneminc creature from ethereal planet JQY with 20 orbiting earthlike satellites?" First, is there such an existing planet? Or will my thought form, my probable reality, then create this Xyopphonmeminc creature, ad absurdum, to reside on this planet? Per Seth, yes, my thougts would have mainfested this Xyo... etc., and I would reside on it as it's ONE and only inhabitant, until I manifest other thought forms to populate it. Or will there have been other mass consciousnesses that would have aided me in manifesting this other thought?

The trickiness of the concepts disclosed by Seth can, and actually does, lead me to believe that I create my own realities, my own set of rules, my own existences. If this is true, then what is real? Or should I ask, what is unreal? Do we live in unreality (defined as not being of this physical earth world)?


betson wrote on Nov 7^th, 2008 at 2:45pm:

Greetings, Previously Ronnie said " In the dreamstate, the learning process has no schedule (as defined by passing of time, which is one of the greatest benefits of the physical state), and hence can go off tangentially to a literal infinity. How is this shown by Monroe's research?" On another thread, Spooky said "the consequences are enormous." Going off to a literal infinity or determining the entire enormity of consequences can be established by a type of sampling. Infinity and enormity may not be possible to experience within one human lifetime. Monroe went so many 'places,' both to know an area in depth and also to broaden the range of his explorations. The correlations and the variations he found led him to the experienced conclusion that he was sampling a literal infinity. On one hand we can measure infinity forever; on another hand we can experience the attitudes that have created infinity forever. To truly know infinity we must use both means.

Ronny:

Perhaps this relates. I just had a meeting at work where we talked about a very complicated problem.  I had my own way of approaching the issue, but found it necessary to allow everybody else to have their say, even though this made the meeting more complicated and take longer. On the other hand, the other people that took part in the meeting came up with valid ideas that I didn't come up with.

Even if we could create just about any reality we want, one might find one's self alone if one doesn't consider the needs of everybody.

 

I can't state that this multiple-me-theory of Seth/Roberts is impossible, but I see major flaws in it:
When I create different parallel realities, what sense does it make to call this here-me AND the other version of me BOTH "me" or "I"? They are just two persons! Even when there are so called "bleed throughs", which are mysterious anyway.
Then, at what points are these alternate lives of "me" created? Only when I consciously want it? Or in every moment, so that it would take just the slightest timespan to create an infinity of me-versions? Or is there a cosmic tic-tic, a digital concept of time (which would lead to further complications), which with every tic would let every entity in the universe split off into multiple versions?

I can't get it together.

Spooky

I've been tied up with real world events recently and haven't attended to the spiritual side. Now, I'm back on track. I've been reading Bruce Moen's second book Vol II: Voyage Beyond Doubt. This is an easier read than the first volume. The first volume lacked war stories, so to speak, but it created a lot of base building with Bruce's initial set of experiences at Gateway and Lifeline.

I'm about finished with Vol II and have found the episode with the stripper girl, who found she had the talent to see the dead, to be fascinating. Not that it dealt with a stripper, but that her experiences, if taken out of context, would definitely be seen as psychotic. Over a short period of time, the stripper girl is able to see ghosts of Amish deceased men. Towards the end of her interaction with Bruce, she guides them to a white light, which served apparently to help the deceased to rise to focus 27. Of course, Bruce did mention in the volume that he had information from the physically largest Amish leader that Bruce would only reveal to the stripper in future interactions.

The experiences Bruce have can definitely be interpreted as psychotic, if taken out of context. With my personal acceptance of the fact that there are other worlds existing along with our physical world, Bruce's experiences are more understandable, and also acceptable.

In my one and only Gateway, a child psychiatrist was an attendee. She and I shared the same results: we didn't get it. In the few discussions I had with her, medical doctors are prone to the use of medication to "alleviate" these symptoms that Bruce and the stripper described.

My question: how does one know when experiencing these Focus phenomena that we aren't actually psychotic instead? Bruce was always concerned of this himself. I'm a physical realist, but once in the "thinking" stage, I'm always concerned my thoughts might evolve into psychosis, or even to the extreme, schizophrenia.

Greetings,

No one I've met that has gone through Bruce's books and methods came out psychotic.  That's my experience of three years here of listening to peoples' experiences and of having my own. Everyone who commits themselves to this process that I've been fortunate to meet here becomes more loving , kind, open to the goodness and potential goodness in our world.

Psychosis is fear-based. The afterlife is not fear-based. Your Guidance through the afterlife experiences is Love-based. You will find this trust in PUL igrows for you as you progress.  :)  Please don't be afraid.

Betson

spooky2 wrote on Nov 12^th, 2008 at 7:06pm:

I can't state that this multiple-me-theory of Seth/Roberts is impossible, but I see major flaws in it: When I create different parallel realities, what sense does it make to call this here-me AND the other version of me BOTH "me" or "I"? They are just two persons! Even when there are so called "bleed throughs", which are mysterious anyway. Then, at what points are these alternate lives of "me" created? Only when I consciously want it? Or in every moment, so that it would take just the slightest timespan to create an infinity of me-versions? Or is there a cosmic tic-tic, a digital concept of time (which would lead to further complications), which with every tic would let every entity in the universe split off into multiple versions? I can't get it together. Spooky

Excellent set of queries. After multiple readings of Seth (Seth must be reread multiple times in order for one to understand his concept of multiple personalities! LOL) I understand that these different versions of "me" you ask about, are there. Also, at the time of creation of YOUR thoughts, an infinite set of branching ramifications occur in the Seth world. AND each of these branches can continue to branch out on it's own with actualized realities in our physical world, and also probable realities that continue to branch forth in the Seth world. THIS REALLY DOES BEND MY IDEA OF THE DEFINITION OF "INFINITY." I mean, Seth is really talking about infinity being infinite.

Now, here's a little twist in my thinking. If what Seth, and even Monroe probably alludes to, says that the PAST, the PRESENT, and the FUTURE are here already then we as HERE entities cannot ALTER the existent past and future EXCEPT to live out pre-existing paths already created by other entities. We can choose what paths we follow that have already been created by others, and therein is the perceived concept of our ability to exercise FREE WILL, but we cannot make up our paths as we make choices.

We have a FREE WILL in that we choose already infinitely created numbers of paths, not that our choice actually makes a new set of paths. This is a mild distinction that reframes the concept of FREE WILL in the context of infinity. Our previous assumption that our physical realities were being created when we make choices in the future is incorrect per Seth. This is not the case, as all these choices we can ever make in our physical lifetime have already been created in the Seth world, but we as choosers have not experienced them from the perspective of our physical world.

The modifier, so to speak, of the results of our selecting what pre-existing, pre-created paths in the Seth world, is how other paths, selected by other physical humans, will interact with our paths. Even here, when another person selects a pre-existing path, and that person's selected path crosses our own path we have chosen by "free will," nothing non-existent is to be created, since even here, the cross of our path with other person's path would have already been existent in the Seth world. It just so happens that the other person chose a path that crossed with our own paths, and the branching from that point of the crossing was already existent, but not chosen. From our perspective it might appear that our FREE WILL got us to the point of the intersection between us and the other person, but in the spirit world, it was already there. It was already there, waiting to be "chosen."

I have to pat myself on the back for thinking this through. LOL

Hi Ronny,
so let's take the "choosing a path" model and have a look at it.

 It remains the problem that when there are entities moving on a path in time, they are different entities than those who, at a branching point, chose another direction, "split off", so to say. Thus it would not be appropriate to speak of "other versions" or "parallel versions" of a person, if we not make the additional assumption that we speak not of our here-now-in-the-physical self but instead of a higher self which is containing all the split-offs of us; between these parts of a higher self then may be a form of information exchange take place, the so-called bleed-throughs. Or we don't allow split-offs, but then, if we keep the already existing path model, we had two types of paths: Those on which an entity is moving, and those which are "empty", we might call them "realized/manifested" vs. "virtual/unmanifested". But there's a problem. It doesn't make much sense to me to speak of those empty paths, as the entity moving on a path seems to be an integral part of the path itself. Imagine a path of a person, but without that person. That doesn't make much sense. So then, we have infinite paths of persons.

The practical value of this model is another question to consider. It would only make a difference if we in any way had access to more than one path at the same time. That's, in my understanding, is what Seth/Roberts called "bleed throughs". Because if access to only one path is possible, it just won't make any difference, we had our one world, and the infinite number of other paths just wouldn't matter to every single I here, now. The very, very most of informations of our other versions on different paths would be totally confusing and meaningless to us, as most paths, would be so different that we wouldn't recognize anything there, the more the longer the branch-off lies back in time.

Also remaining is the question after the circumstances under which branch-off points are set.

There's another funny thing coming from the infinite number of paths. When there is actually an infinite number of paths, meaning an infinite number of possibilities/realities, then there might be an infinite number of paths which are the same, given the possibility that a branch-off can be created, and in the following the differences of the two (or more) paths can be leveled out again. Even when the chances are very little, but not zero, we'd have an infinity of those same-paths.

Btw, the concept of free will doesn't sound very convincing to me, at least when the term is used as it is commonly used. We had a discussion about it here:
http://afterlife-knowledge.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?num=1189351469/0

Well, sometimes I wonder if it wouldn't be better to spend more time in meditation than thinking about these intellectual concepts...

What the psychotic aspect of these "journeys" belongs, the main thing is the ability to sort experiences into categories. Let's say we have a person who is an extensive daydreamer, but is not called a psychotic, that's because this person is able to distinguish between the world(s) of daydreams and the world of the common, normal, physical matter. If this person hadn't this ability, this person would be called psychotic (or whatever). We actually can interprete some psychotic experiences as perceptions coming from other realities than what is commonly considered as the normal physical reality, when these perceptions cannot be separated from, and confused with this physical reality. I think Bruce wrote about this concept (or a similar one) at least in his 5th book.

Spooky