This morning I received some spirit messages that I seemed to understand while they were communicated to me, but forgot them as soon as they stopped being sent. They included thoughts and visual imagery. I believe I can trust these messages, because I was connected to a being that radiated love and peace when I received them. Plus, I just about always make contact with divine guidance during the hours that proceed my getting out of bed.

I tried to recollect the messages that were sent to me, and some things occurred to me. I'm not one hundred percent certain that what I came up with is accurate.  When considering what I came up with, I had the mind set of not limiting myself to finding out only what I want to find out. I allowed myself to find out what's true.

I believe that sometimes the most loving thing to do is to allow ourselves to become aware of certain kinds of information, even if this means becoming aware of information that the compassionate part of our self's don't want to become aware of. If we don't allow ourselves to become aware of unpleasant information not only do we prevent ourselves from obtaining knowledge that will enable us to help, we also allow our heart chakra to be blocked.

We incarnate into this World because it is one of the ways in which we learn to manifest in a tangible manner. Before we take part in a means of learning, we are souls who lack the knowledge of how to manifest in a way that provides our souls with something to be aware of.  One of the key lessons we try to learn is how to love. People who have near death experiences often state that one of the key reasons we incarnate into this World is so we can learn to live according to love.

If a person spent most of his life learning to be an angry, hateful, malicious, irreverent and self-centered person, this person probably won't have the attributes he needs when he moves on to the spirit World. If you attempted to cleanse away the negative attributes of such a spirit you might find that nothing is left over after the cleansing process is completed, because while occupying a human body, this spirit didn't do anything to develop positive attributes.  

Some people speak of the transformative effect of a life review. But if a spirit doesn't have any positive qualities to begin with, you won't have anything to work with. You can't make a chocolate cake if the ingredients you have don't have anything to do with chocolate cake. I understand that people who go through life reviews state that they become aware of the suffering they cause other people to experience. However, unless a spirit understands at least a little about compassion, becoming aware of how it caused others to suffer might not matter. Consider the way of people in this World that derive pleasure by causing others to suffer. If it wasn't for the fact that they are aware that they are causing others to suffer, they wouldn't derive pleasure by doing so. I figure the same is true of a malicious spirit. Such a spirit engages in malicious activity because it enjoys seeing others suffer.

There is also the matter of how we are connected to all that we influence. If a person did nothing but harm and influence other people while alive, this person's spirit would have a history that is full of regrets. Perhaps in such instances reincarnation is called for. However, a spirit would probably have to be able to advance enough so it could be prepared for another incarnation.

Some people might state that there is more than negative attributes a negative minded spirit could rely on. Each of us has love as our base. I wonder if this is an accurate viewpoint. Perhaps love is an energy level that doesn't belong to anyone in particular, but can be experienced by any soul that learns to live according to a way of understanding that allows it to open up to such an energy level.

Bruce Moen wrote that some souls can't be retrieved because they become too separated from PUL. Some people might wonder why don't the divine powers that be just cleanse away the negative thought patterns that such a spirit has accumulated? Perhaps they don't do so because they understand that if you did so nothing would be left over but a spirit with no attributes.
   

Hi recoverer  There are some out there in the world what do get a kick out of seeing others suffer because of there actions toward others.
I remember when i worked in this factory,i was very withdrawn ,very quiet and living in my own little world of suffering and i had invented this door inside my mind so that if anyone put me down as a person and hurt my feelings ,it would go straight behind my door and my door is still there,it is the only way i could cope with the constant put down of those in that factory because i was not like them laughing and joking all day, but though they hurt my feelings i would still smile at them and ask them how they were, as my door would not let me think of what they had said to me because my door would shut against the hurt and it still does.

Oneday when i was in the factory this man came up to me and he said"Why do you smile at them Judie and ask them how they are when they constantly put you down as a person"and i just looked at him and said "I do that because you have to give a bit extra love as theres not enough to go around"and he just smiled and walked away,i dont really know what he thought of my words,he perhaps thought i was mad but i felt good inside for giving out that love even though that was really hard to do sometimes.
Ive always tried to keep the love in my heart for others even though i feel sometimes,they dont deserve it

I beleive there is a life review and that all who are delibrately unkind to others will feel what they gave out and will then feel remorse and start to move on towards the love what waits in the spiritworld for them,i feel we have all hurt someones feelings in our life and felt sorry about it afterwards but its those what hurt  someone and feel nothing at the time or afterwards that make this world unhappy to live in.

Love and God bless love juditha

Juditha:

I believe you took a good approach with your coworkers.

Recoverer, how can a spirit be left over with no attributes?

It is hard for me to imagine that a human being could conceivably 'never' have a sense impression or a thought or an emotion which might ripple through the heart of 'God' and be worth preserving. It is hard for me to separate the human personality from its experiences, and its own unique characteristics.

I don't feel that it's necessary for me to sort all that out, however.

It seems to me that intention is a tricky item to define. Don't so many create harm while intending good. And there are happy 'accidents' like the lucky one who is born with a 'pleasant' and 'honest' face and just gets treated better all his or her life.

Just makes me dizzy thinking about it. Must be for better minds than me.

Blink:

What I wrote is quite different than what I usually write.

People develop all kinds of personalities.  It is possible that somebody like Adolph Hitler didn't develop any positive attributes. If you were to negate all of the attributes he developed, what would he be left with?

Perhaps a way exists where he could develop new attributes of mind. He'd have to stop clinging to the attributes he developed.

Yes, seems like it might be hard to distinguish him in a crowd, then.

just pulling your leg, blink :)

Juditha said: I do that because you have to give a bit extra love as theres not enough to go around

___

:)

Hi R, everybody.

there's a thing called grace descends on every soul that has reached the bottom. I assume, or conjecture, as I don't know for sure about Hitler, I'm not sure about the reports a few channelers say of going to visit with Hitler. I think I'm not interested enough to do that.

but the point about grace, I conjecture Hitler may have bottomed out. that's where there's no point in living. needless to say, it is awful to see nothing is worth living for. In this case, there is a grace that takes care of that person.

It's beyond what I can write about. but we can contemplate on the words of a great hymm which always goes thru my mind..
to explain what grace is:

"I once was lost but now am found..how precious was that grace that saved a wretch like me..amazing grace how sweet the sound..
____

I'm willing to bet whoever wrote that song is now an ascended master because of that grace, and because of the suffering of that soul and of bottoming out.

there are many among us who do bottom out, and that's when they start to perform their special function in this world, whatever that is, of lowly or high station, doesn't matter to God. grace falls on the just and the unjust in that sense.

we question about what god is, when we make god into our image. grace is the best way I know of to talk of god.
otherwise, looking to those who are our heroes, who were here in the flesh.
we say God is. Then we cease to talk.

Recoverer,

"This is a true and very profound message indeed and I agree with it in totality."

(so much so I am going to save it and credit to you recoverer)

"It is my view about the fate of Hitler stripped of all my deep anger about him and stated in a logical sensible way".

Recoverer you should as soon as you wake up write down messages like that one, as you know if one does not the dream message might just seems to desolve somehow

Take Care

Alan

I think there is an underlaying structure in each person which is not totally affected by one earth life. So, when a person leaves the physical, and enters fully the nonphysical, it could turn out that most, if not all, what this person did in the recent life, was bad, but this recent life is not the entireness of what this person is. The evil may be due to the circumstances of the recent life.

However, this is not negating the possibility of a personality structure in which simply no resonance for love is left, no "perceptors" for love. Then, this would be a lost soul, as described in Bruce's fourth book.

The question of a soul without attributes is an interesting one. A person is defined through his/her deeds, memories. However, there is this "I" function which primarily enables one to be a person, by relating perceptions and memories as "mine". This happens way before there is an intellectual person who can reflect about his/her own certain attributes, it is something babies and animals have, too, by simply having the ability to be affected, to feel joy and pain, as it requires this pre-personal and pre-worded "here", "this happens to ME"; otherwise there only would be perceptions without a perceiver. So, it might be possible to have a soul without attributes.
  Looking at experiences in meditation, and what others write about extraordinary states of mind, such as NDEs, and divine apparitions, it makes some sense. In the end, haven't we to detach from our memories? Aren't it our specifics, our personalities, which hinder us to go back to the source? When we assume the possibility of a melting with all that is, without the loss of the "me", it's only possible when we divide the "I- function" from the memories, so that we can melt into one being, with all our memories, and still being "I".

Spooky

Recoverer,


Quote:

Some people speak of the transformative effect of a life review. But if a spirit doesn't have any positive qualities to begin with, you won't have anything to work with.

I keep bringing up the life review and how it would affect a dark soul like Hitler. In every case I received no response from the forum

Surely the life review that Hitler would have to endure would be as close to a hell as anything I can imagine. At the life review every event that he was accountable would be replayed objectively and subjectively in actual time he would feel the pain, sorrow, desolation, hopelessness of every victims of his evil ideas.

Thus he is simply judged by his own actions in life, not by a wrathful God

Alan

I'm willing to bet whoever wrote that song is now an ascended master because of that grace, and because of the suffering of that soul and of bottoming out.

Rather appropriate for this thread - the guy who wrote "Amazing Grace", John Newton, was a slave trader who continued to trade in slaves for 40 years after the storm that initially got him thinking on the subject of grace.

First, thank you the responses.

Second, as I wrote in my first post, I'm not one hundred percent certain, and I'm trying to figure this out.

I basically believe that all of our souls start out in a place with a lot of love.  We lose track of this love to varying degrees when we incarnate in this World.  Sometimes this happens because a child, perhaps with unloving parents, doesn't receive the love that all souls want to receive.  Such a child will find another way to cope, and this can lead to a negative way of being.

Perhaps a key question is, what does it take to learn about compassion? Once we get to the point where we care about others, we're on our way to the light. Perhaps once a spirit learns to have compassion for itself, rather than making use of some means of coping, it will learn to have compassion for others. It'll take a clear look at the first events during its bodily life that caused it to close itself off from love. Once it opens up to love, it'll be able to receive love from the spirit beings that try to help it, and as Spooky suggests, it'll start to remember what it knew before it incarnated.

Even if this soul was completely negative while occupying a body, it might've noticed how some people tried to share love with it (sorry about the "it"), and might've noticed how people shared love with each other.  Such exposure could influence a soul on a level it doesn't become conscious of until it start to open up to love.

Alan,

I'm wondering how much ones own perspective has to do with their life review. To a lot of people Hitler was a monster. To a lot of German people he was a savior. What was Hitler to himself? Did he do all those things because he knew it was wrong or was he able to completely justify it all to himself? Does one get a chance to argue ones reasoning during his or her life review or is there a cosmic standard that is not open to argument?

Recoverer and others,

If we really look truthfully into our most inner being, into exactly how our minds, thoughts and souls, then we should realise how imperfect we are when compared to the sublime perfection of God.

Nothing we do in life can ever match even his minimum standards. At present we are finite and mortal and God is infinite and immortal.

This gap is the void where the grace of God reaches down in love to pull us up to his sublime love and perfection. We can accept this offer of grace or embrace it with the love he extends it to us.

Or reject it like Hitler id and face the consequences

Alan

Mark


Quote:

Alan, I'm wondering how much ones own perspective has to do with their life review. To a lot of people Hitler was a monster. To a lot of German people he was a savior. What was Hitler to himself? Did he do all those things because he knew it was wrong or was he able to completely justify it all to himself? Does one get a chance to argue ones reasoning during his or her life review or is there a cosmic standard that is not open to argument?

While I can not answer what Hiltler was to himself his actions revealed that he thought he was at least a demigod

The German people after the horrors of was decidedly did not think he was a saviour if fact they are now deeply ashamed of him.

He judged himself in his life review as all his action were played back like a movie in real time

Alan

I wrote that I'm not certain about what happens to the spirit of a person such as Hilter, but I am certain about this. Any person who viewes/viewed  Hitler to be some kind of savior finds/found out quite differently during his or her life review.  There is nothing admirable about what Hitler did.

It is folly to contend that it is a matter of perspective. I believe it is okay to allow our intellects to run about a bit as we try to figure things out, but if we let it run too far we might lose our way. My guess is that Hitler had all kinds of intellectual justifications for the terrible things he did.

If a spirit doesn't want to be honest during a life review, there in no point in having one.


Mark wrote on Oct 16^th, 2008 at 2:02pm:

Alan, I'm wondering how much ones own perspective has to do with their life review. To a lot of people Hitler was a monster. To a lot of German people he was a savior. What was Hitler to himself? Did he do all those things because he knew it was wrong or was he able to completely justify it all to himself? Does one get a chance to argue ones reasoning during his or her life review or is there a cosmic standard that is not open to argument?

I also wonder what happens to the rest of the people who did so much moire harm than Hitler. Especially those who did so in the name of their "God". Religions and those who believe in them have caused far more death and destruction that Hitler ever did. Were they forgiven by this so called God identity?
You know what....it doesn't matter if they were or not. As long as they forgave themselves, then they could move on or re-attempt the lesson. There is no requirement of forgiveness by any of us or of this so call God identity spoken of here. Who here has the right to judge Hitler? Who here has the right to decide who will progress or not in their spiritual awareness? Who here is any better than anyone else?
Not I, that's for sure.   

Quote:

Any person who viewes/viewed  Hitler to be some kind of savior finds/found out quite differently during his or her life review.

I think Mark is probably talking about the German people that had been under oppression. Many of them saw Hitler as a savior.

K

Kathy:

Sure, there were some German people that viewed Hitler as a savoir. When it comes time for Hitler's life review, I don't believe this factor would be considered to be some sort of defense, because it won't be a matter of Hitler having to defend himself. It will be a matter of Hitler being honest about what he did.  

Hawkeye:

I figure it's more a matter of what's possible than what somebody judges.

I hope Hitler finds his way to heaven. This doesn't mean his actions were appropriate.

Plus, I believe that people do have the right to confront somebody when that somebody does something to hurt others.  If the leader of country A wants to nuke country B,  other people have the right to speak against this leader. It isn't about judgement. It's about not allowing some people to harm others.


hawkeye wrote on Oct 16^th, 2008 at 3:10pm:

I also wonder what happens to the rest of the people who did so much moire harm than Hitler. Especially those who did so in the name of their "God". Religions and those who believe in them have caused far more death and destruction that Hitler ever did. Were they forgiven by this so called God identity? You know what....it doesn't matter if they were or not. As long as they forgave themselves, then they could move on or re-attempt the lesson. There is no requirement of forgiveness by any of us or of this so call God identity spoken of here. Who here has the right to judge Hitler? Who here has the right to decide who will progress or not in their spiritual awareness? Who here is any better than anyone else? Not I, that's for sure.

Hawkeye


Quote:

Who here has the right to judge Hitler? Who here has the right to decide who will progress or not in their spiritual awareness? Who here is any better than anyone else? Not I, that's for sure

Hitler’s actions in life determined his eternal destiny Thus he was his "own judge". We are accountable for what we do in life.

I can’t say that I am any better than anyone on this forum. But I know I am an infinitely better person than Hitler

Go on protecting this monster you were not a Jew or Gypsy or a Russian prisoner in the Second World War.

Who the heck!!! Did worse than him, can one exceed infinite evil?

Hitler will reap what he sowed. The portrate of his life is hiddeuos..

If he had reached your county you would not be stating the things you are

Alan

I don't see anyone 'protecting' a 'monster' here today. We're just having a discussion, with some interesting points of view all around. I think these ideas are very relevant to this forum and its purpose.

Alan McDougall wrote on Oct 16^th, 2008 at 3:44pm:

Who the heck!!! Did worse than him, can one exceed infinite evil?

Alan,
as I pointed out on the other discussion, Stalin killed or had killed in his name anywhere between 20-25 million people.
That seems rather more than the 6 million executed in German concentration camps.
And no I was not a Jew, intellectual or an ethnic minority in Germany.
But neither was I any of these things in Russia in the 20s and 30s either.
For that matter we could also include the 9 million plus put to death by the Catholic Church under the inquisition, accusations of witchcraft, heretics, etc.
How did the multifarious Popes, Cardinals, Bishops involved deal with that one in their life reviews?

I'm concerned about your claim that you've received no response from the forum about Hitler's life review; I attempted to address that very subject in the off topic forum.

Hope this helps,
Best wishes,

David.

Blink

This thread was directed specifically to that entity by the name of Hitler and all this lovee dovee stuff about him makes me sick

He was a remorseless psychopath of the most terrible kind a blot and plague on the pages of human history

And I again insist that we will account for our actions when we die.

Alan

Alan McDougall wrote on Oct 16^th, 2008 at 2:03pm:

Recoverer and others, If we really look truthfully into our most inner being, into exactly how our minds, thoughts and souls, then we should realise how imperfect we are when compared to the sublime perfection of God. Nothing we do in life can ever match even his minimum standards. At present we are finite and mortal and God is infinite and immortal. Alan

Why should that be? Why should we accept the conditioning of centuries of religious dogma that says we are unworthy, we are sinners, we have to beg for forgiveness and the only way to salvation is through an intermediary?
Who says we are imperfect beings? Why should we not entertain the possibility that we ARE perfect beings who have forgotten the fact, come down into the ELS to work our way back up having learned all that is learnable?
And as for us being mortal, I'm afraid that if that hypothesis is true we're all wasting our time here. Surely the whole point of this forum, Bob Monroe's and Bruce's books, and a whole bunch of other stuff is to remind us of the fact that we are all a part of God, that we are immortal and go on after this life, and we are infinite in potential.
To hold on to the old paradigm is no longer relevant.
Surely its time to accept that the explosion of spiritual seeking will soon replace the old guilt laden mindset of humanity. The old, exclusive, 'my god's better than your god and to prove it I'll kill you' has had its day and its time to realise that all paths are the same but with different names.

Yes, we can account for our actions when we die. but stop thinking that that's all there is to it. There's far more at stake that may have its origins in previous lifetimes, future ones and parallel ones.
I'm not advocating any 'lovee dovee' stuff about Hitler either, but I wonder how many remorseless pyschopaths are on this planet right now.
Maybe a few of them in the Fed....?

Best wishes,

David.

I understand, Alan, and your view has been stated here very clearly. I just don't think it's necessary for any of us to accuse each other. This is what happens when people get emotionally worked up about such heavy subjects. I think people are entitled to have a different view than you do, and it doesn't mean that they support heinous crimes such as the torture and murder of others. It just means they see the big picture differently, or that they are just taking a look at it differently for the time being. Well, I'll stop talking now.

Nor am I all lovee dovee towards Hitler. The possible difference is that I do not believe he is in the hell that you so strongly believe in Alan. It seams obvious to me that he didn't believe in the same things that you believe in. Not your ideas of God or of consequences from the actions caused by his leadership. In my personal view, he does not need your forgiveness, nor this God of yours you speak of. Remember that it is your God. (An unforgiving God?) Who do you think he was accountable to? And many others have done worse than Hitler. Jews, Christians, Muslims, Americans, Chinese, Japaneese,... just to mention a few.  I do agree with you that we can be accountable for our actions,  but only to ourselves. Hitler was wrong for what he started. The smallest private was wrong for turning on the gas chamber also. As was the dentist who pulled out the teeth of those who were killed, etc, etc. All of them had to judge themselves. But they were not judged by some unforgiving God. I was told that this God forgives "all" sin. Is not the act of NOT forgiving as bad as the act that should be forgiven? I think it best to open your heart and forgive than to hate. Those are my feelings. But enough about Hitler for me. Its been talked to death here. How about we move it over to that thing going on with the current war. Now isn't killing 200,000 Iraqis, mostly women and children, just as bad? But I also forgive Bush and the American solders that are pulling the triggers....By the way there are Canadians doing the exact same thing also. Will Bush go to this hell of yours?

You can think I'm nuts if you want, Alan, but I was just looking at the sky and it is filled up with soft little white clouds. The sun is setting. The message I just got said that all those souls, the ones you have been crying for, they are in heaven, and it is happy there. They are happy and they give us permission to be happy. That is all.

love, blink

Alan (and all)                                                                                      
I would like to continue with my question of perspective in the life review. There are obviously some great thoughts out there so lets continue.
Would it be safe to say that the life review is a learning experience? This may seem a strange question but as I hope to illustrate it is valid.
If I get the gist of it we are to experience every act that we ever have performed through the physical and emotional eye of the beholder. For better or worse what I have done to you will be done to me so I know how it felt.
So, during my life, I have had to make many decisions between people and instances. Some made you happy and the other sad. So there are two sets of feelings (this is an ultra-simplified version - you may apply it to Hitler and Germans vs Jews etc if you like) I have hurt someone and I have made someone happy - by the exact same action.
So now I'm here in my life review and learn that by doing whatever I did I have now given someone pain and someone pleasure. Then there is the third set of emotions - namely, mine, which I am hoping will not be ignored.
One might say that yes - you will experience all of these - the one you hurt, the one you helped, and your own reaction to this one single instance.
But what have I learned - that you made a tough decision and chose based on the better angels of my nature? I knew that when I was alive minus actually living it through their eyes. And being a sensitive person believe me - I do feel it in people the decisions I make.
So is the life review nothing more than...a life review? Will I learn something I don't already know?

Greetings,

Down here we're previewing our life review from a single point of view that is ours alone, plus some empathy for a few others who were 'done to,' but mostly as we see how they reacted --still our own point of view.

Up there the life reviews are seen from broader consciousness, -- a more all-encompassing consciousness shared by our Higher Selves and our Disk families, those who have interacted with us and as us through many lifetimes. They're familiar with our long-range goals and what we've done before and so can providee reminders of how our latest efforts fit.

In addition to those we directly 'did to,' we will find out the rippling effect of further ramifications. This is not to blame us for the problems of the world but to verify that energies we exert have extended effects.

I got off topic by not throwing Hitler's name in there. I think he does go through some of the same processing but probably briefer since he wouldn't have much support to discuss.
Please don't compare your life review process with that of any tyrant or murderer.

Bets

How alert was this fellow Hitler? How conscious was he of what he was doing?
He was an art major. He chose art possibly because he couldn't deal with people. (I was an art major so I can say such stuff, OK?)

He kept a few people close at hand but appears to be playing a dress-up role much of the time.
Like many generals, coaches, CEOs, etc, did he really comprehend what was going on in the ranks?
Or was he in denial, in shock, from some bit of awareness that occasionally dawned on him?

In film clips I've seen of him, he never makes eye contact with those around him, not even his closest advisers.

So does a person in such a mind state bear the same responsibility for his actions as an aware person?   :-/   :P

Bets

With karma, it either is, or it isn't.  One can ask what a tyrant comprehended, but the result is the same; actions cause reactions.  Cause and effect.  Since punishment is meted out by our own divine spark, it is not a matter of the universe somehow judging a person who harms another.  

If by saying that Hitler was not cognizant of the evil that was done under him, one questions if that mitigates the end result (the extermination of millions), the answer is; no, it does not.  In life and the afterlife, we are responsible for our actions. Our core being knows this - and the golden rule "do not do unto others that which you would not have done to yourself" (or do unto others that which you would yourself) holds true.  

Since time is not linnear in spirit, I think it is a moot point to question if Hitler is roasting in his own personal focus level or not while we are here, in this time and space.  Those who seek that answer are looking for a celestial jurisprudence/punishment system which is imposed externally - that does not exist.  

Matthew

What helps me most about your post,
Dear DocM,

is the line "... punishment is meted out by our own divine spark...."
Something sparked when you said spark, and it seemed that to extinguish a Divine spark would be difficult.
But if each person who died at H's direction wanted their own justice--a death under the same circumstances as they had--
it would certainly take a seeming 'eternity' for H to reincarnate in order to die by those means.
In that process would his Divine spark decide to exterminate itself?
I don't think we can conjecture the answer.

Bets

By the way, I don't think much of this topic.

http://www.cnn.com/2008/LIVING/10/16/heroes.sarandon.mapendo/index.html

This story seems to fit the topic.

love, blink

Hi Bets,

First off I'm not sure everyone has a "life review."  In order to have one, I would imagine the deceased would have to be in a frame of mind to appreciate the suffering of others.  What I have heard is that those who delight in the harm of others have no life review - their minds are not ready for it.  Instead, they awake in darkness, in a focus level (hell) of others who delight in the harming of another.  It all depends on the state of mind of the deceased.  

In terms of karma, if millions hold one responsible for their death, there has to be forgiveness on both sides, in order for either to spiritually progress.  Forgiveness is best if coupled with an understanding of our true nature.  Of PUL, of the unity of consciousness.  With that understanding comes the letting go of the need to hold a grudge, hold in a wrong you've suffered, or hate.

The notion that someone would have to reincarnate tens of thousands of times to "make up" for bad karma is a doctrine that has not been substantiated by any evidence - eventhough it is a popular theory among reincarnationists.  Its not about making up for specific acts against another - unless you want it to be. (In that case, you are stuck on a karmic wheel).   It is more about evolving our consciousness toward love, and toward the natural path of love, which is the path of God.

M

Matthew hit the nail on the head when he said: "It is more about evolving our consciousness toward love, and toward the natural path of love, which is the path of God."

What seems to be lacking in this thread is intention, which motivates action.

Sometimes we think the bottom line is about the judgment of morality, what we personally and as a society accept as moral/immoral action, but it’s about intention, which is the motivation behind the action that determines the quality of consciousness. The concept of morality is simply a learning tool that has evolved from consciousness for the purpose of providing opportunity/potentiality for quality/improvement of its growth/quality of its love. Morality is not the end all because that only leads to a limited path that goes nowhere.

It is impossible to accurately know anyone’s moment-to-moment intention that motivated an action by the results of that action, including Hitler’s. No one can truly know what is in another’s heart and mind based on the outcome of an action. We all have cross-purposes, mixed intentions. I’m sure Hitler was no different. His positive intentions (if any – no one can know this) would have benefited the improvement of his consciousness.

Kathy

[size=14][/size]Number 1: some humans are predisposed to their personality's merely due to the chemical intendance of their human brain.
2: has anyone thought of the possibility that the "evil" was agreed upon by both the doer and the receiver before incarnating?

I don't believe it is a matter of negative lessons that are needed. It is a matter of some people making poor use of their freewill.

"FART!" Why did I write this? Was it a part of my life plan to do so, am I so psychologically conditioned that I don't have any self control, or did I make use of my free will in a poor way?

Doc wrote: "First off I'm not sure everyone has a "life review."  In order to have one, I would imagine the deceased would have to be in a frame of mind to appreciate the suffering of others.  What I have heard is that those who delight in the harm of others have no life review - their minds are not ready for it.  Instead, they awake in darkness, in a focus level (hell) of others who delight in the harming of another.  It all depends on the state of mind of the deceased.  

Recoverer responds: The above goes along with what I was suggesting.

Hi Recoverer and all    I remember reading this story of this man who had a NDE.He was really evil towards people and he did not care how much he caused suffring on the earth,anyway while going through his NDE he was walking past this river and in this river there were these souls sreaming and holding there hands above this river they were in,he was really scared

As he walked a bit further this spirit,who was a good spirit reminded him of all the things he had done and then this man went through a life review and he felt all the pain he had caused to others and he felt this remorse of what he hads done and he cried,he then came back to his body and he was changed ,he treated people with a loving heart and also he gave to charities and is now a counciller for those that have got problems.

Hitler should have had an NDE and then he would have gone through the life review and came back to earth and not did what he did,but then again he was so evil that a lifereview probably wouldnt have worked,i really beleive that hitler has not moved from the lowest plain because he to scared to go through the light of Gods love as he would have to face up to his actions.

Hi Hitler you evil sod
   You cannot even face God
You belong where you are in a cold cold zone
To be there all on your own
On earth, you did ask for this
Its a pity a snake didnt give you a kiss
Because on this earth ,you'd have been no miss.



Love and God bless   love juditha

Matthew


Quote:

Since punishment is meted out by our own divine spark, it is not a matter of the universe somehow judging a person who harms another.

Hitler "Divine Spark" Huh!!

Juditha

You posted the truth, we are accountable to a holy God for what we do in life, both good and evil

Alan

:-/ It's a tough one this Hitler topic, and one we've explored before. I guess it's hard to be prescriptive about what might have happened to him, in that how you see it is going to depend on your beliefs as to the nature of the afterlife process. Not that our beliefs may necessarily be that close to the reality either...

If you take the ACIM type view a loving God did not create a reality in which events like WW2 and all the other horrors seem to happen - we (as in the collective ego of the beings separated from him) projected it as a means of suppressing our awareness of separation, and out of a mistaken fear of punishment for it.

As a result these events have no absolute reality, and any wrongdoing (non loving behaviour) is forgiven even before it occurs. If we could accept this then we would no longer feel the urge to project this reality, so rebirth into it would not occur - we would simply return to God/Spirit.

The problems develop in that most of us (and especially those inclined towards egotistical and non loving behaviours) cannot accept this at the deeper levels of mind, or even (usually) at the conventional intellectual level. The result is that we initially (as a result of our initial enjoyment of the freedom of the afterlife) create very positive experiences, but sooner or later the guilt kicks in (basically in the form of the life review - which may be something we ourselves create as a result of the separation of our awareness/essential self which then experiences the contents of our  memories/personality/ego) and we start to experience  negative stuff.

The resulting fear and possibly horror we generate at our past actions (our essential self truly 'sees') propels us into rebirth, with the resulting very high levels of horror/fear in the case of serious wrong making likely our rushing into highly undesirable life circumstances  - and so the cycle continues as these circumstances drive us into further wrongdoing.

As talked above I guess mitigating factors like being a part of some sort of learning process motivated by spirit to assist our escape and arranged prior to birth (where spirit uses the circumstances of the reality we have created for the spiritual growth of many - but did not ab initio create the events), or unknowing error committed out of a lack of wisdom with genuinely no intention of harm, or a balancing of positive and negative outcomes, physical or mental incapacity/disability, or simply being a catalyst that triggered an already latent tendency in a population, or being a more or less realised person may well have an effect - maybe reducing the depth of our horror at review, and our fear of retribution - and hence may make possible rapid learning without rebirth into undesirable circumstances.

Intention as Kathy says is probably an important determinant of the situation.

Against that very fearful beings with no trust in the existence of any reality other than the physical may refuse to move on out of this world - and hang about for as long as they can as ghostly entities - possibly even trying to live off those still in physical life. Such beings may also have in life overridden their spiritual sight (such as it was) with a deliberate intention to do wrong - masking it, and making their fear even more intense.

Buddhism uses different language, but teaches something pretty similar about the bardos and rebirth - conceptualising it seems the fear and horror that we experience (at deeper levels of mind than we are normally conscious of) as the karma that not just drives us into rebirth and determines our birth circumstances, but also follows us into and on an ongoing basis creates our life. (logical enough if you accept that mind creates all)

Both systems suggest that karma/fear/guilt at separation are self rather than divinely inflicted, are capable of gradually being dissolved/lessened through appropriate spiritual practices like meditation (which by calming and creating space in the mind makes space for spiritual intuition/assistance from Spirit to get past the fear and resulting mental babble into awareness) and contemplation of teaching (which inculcates a correct 'view'), and are only truly transcended with enlightenment. (or the end of all belief in relative/dualistic existence, and true spiritual sight)

It's possible of course to see it all very differently. We can posit a God created Universe, and see it as a learning environment designed to create experience or some such similar output of value.

Or we can posit the existence of a God that punishes sin in proportion to its severity, and rewards good with a ticket to heaven.

It's surely hard to see Hitler as deserving of anything but love, compassion and understanding. He was born into unique circumstances which conspired with his personality and his belief in the use of power and force to bring the worst into existence, but it's not like it's very likely that it made him happy in life, and it's hard to imagine how he entered the afterlife without considerable issues to resolve unless he somehow received a lot of assistance or was a lot more realised than we're inclined to credit.

Please don't take offence at this, but even presuming that he was the proverbial monster we should perhaps be careful of desiring his damnation. First off the possibility is that we're simply attacking a projected and suppressed aspect of our own mind (there is only one mind), secondly we're training ourselves in an unhealthy and unloving attitude of mind, and thirdly we're simply reinforcing the possible belief of such a being (again actually an aspect of our own mind) that that love is not a viable basis for living.

Better that we forgive, and seek to envisage the positive/love informed  outcome we'd like to see to his situation...

Alan,

Our individual consciousness is always a manifestation of the divine.  It is our earthly personalities, acting from free will that can take this "divine spark," and turn away from love and God - what is currently known as evil.  No person, no matter how infamous started out in this earth plane without the divine spark.  Judging from what we know about the unity of all things and consciousness itself, it is doubtful that it ever leaves any individual.

My theory is that if one twists his/her own mind enough toward harming others, then when that person sheds their earthly body, they have isolated themselves from God and their own divine spark.  This is why, I believe, many who choose to commit evil acts while incarnate may not have a life review.  Free will has let that person wall themselves off from their own divine essence and experiencing/sharing PUL.  In order to have a life review, you must be able to show insight and remorse for your actions.

However this topic is important for it is an area where moral purists make their mistake.  They assume that the personalities and choices made by free will make a soul irredeemably evil.  Yet this is not the nature of consciousness.  A conscious entity must choose through free will to act in an evil/unloving way.  As long as they do this, they willingly isolate themselves from love and God.  They surround themselves also with the consequences of their actions (karma).  How long do they stay in hellish levels of consciousness?  Days?  Years?  A millenia?  Since time isn't linnear in the plane of thought, who can say?  They stay as long as their thought matches the vibration of the plane of consciousness they are in.

Unfortunately, it is not so easy that a person choosing evil actions will suddenly turn 180 degrees around upon finding themselves in a focus level (Hell) and become a saint.  You see it is all about your state of mind, not your wishes.  In order to leave a focus level/Hell, you have to have the honest inclination/emotion to do it.  You can't continue to want to hurt others but say "I'm tired of this, I want to try out heaven now."  Without the change in true conviction or feeling in a soul, they would, I believe be unable to see or communicate, even if they could be brought into the same focus level/plane as a heaven (focus 23).


Matthew

Matthew and Ian,


Your quote Matthew

Quote:

My theory is that if one twists his/her own mind enough toward harming others, then when that person sheds their earthly body, they have isolated themselves from God and their own divine spark.  This is why, I believe, many who choose to commit evil acts while incarnate may not have a life review.

Matthew and Ian,

Thank you both for your astute posts.

Well the worst hell is to be isolated from God. The unimaginable loneness and hopelessness is beyond description and this is the hell I said Hitler found himself in when he awoke on the other side.

This is the dark place I saw him in a sort of place of waiting, not a very nice place at all.

I don’t know if he had to remain there for a moment or an eternity. God is able to stretch a pick second into an eternity or your whole life is one flashing immeasurably tiny moment.

Don Berserk has said in previous threads on similar subjects that some souls are unredeemable and are annihilated by God in the after life. He could be right

As for very bad people not having a life review here you are wrong Matthew, I have a friend who was a member of the Nazi like apartheid police state in South Africa, he did some very very bad things related to racism just like the Nazis did (but not as bad!!)


Then he was burned in a gasoline fire to the extent that the flames rose 20 feet in the air. He tried to run to a water tank and he was called the furnace man by the local media.

Anyway this event made him turn his life around 180 degrees and he became a loving moral god fearing man as a result

Although he was by no means a Hitler he was a hateful racist that abused the South African people of color

He dead as a result of his burns which were so severe that they were third degree burns over all his body except under his feet

He had a deep and profound life review where he had to relive all the abuse he had done to those innocent people in detail and one by one objectively as if he were the suffering person himself

So very very bad people have life reviews and that is my pint

If you like you can googol his name is "Willie Sauderson" and you will read I am not just fabricating my story to make a point

Alan

Here is an article I wrote about Willie Sauderson some time ago

Dear All,
http://www.lebensentscheidung.de/himmelhoelle/willie_sanderson.html

http://www.returnofelijahfirecrusades.tv/saunderson/home.html



I have a friend who was burned with gasoline giving him terrible third  degree burns over 95% of his body Only the soles of his feet where left unburned and this together with small patches of lesser damaged skin that were harvested and spread over his body over a hellish two year period of partial healing.

He is terribly scarred and by some miracle his face was not badly disfigured... He is thought by many of our local medical personal to be the worst burn case ever to survive. He died three times in his 18 months of hell on earth recovery and had the most profound near death experiences I have ever heard of. He now travels the world telling his story. He has been to U.S.A amongst the very many countries he has been visiting to tell his story of his N.D.E. His name is Willie Saunderson.

The reason I am typing this has to do with a halo that forms around his head every time he gets up to talk on the subject of his N.D.E This halo I have seen and it is bright white in color and revolves around his head, but different persons perceive it differently, with colors etc. when he is in this state and people approach him they all experience some form of a spiritual experience. From weeping with joy and feeling a powerful emanation of compassion, love and a manifestation of holiness. He is profoundly Christian and so where his N.D.E's.      

LOVE

ALAN

Hi Alan,

I think its more complicated than saying bad people don't have life reviews.  But its simple in a way too.  Many people use their free will to make certain decisions (join the army for example).  They may be good and decent in their thoughts.  Then, for various reasons they make bad choices.......(burning villages in the crossfire, etc.)

In my theory, the life review depends on the state of mind of the deceased.  Those who delight in the suffering of others get to a point where they don't experience or express PUL (God's path).  However each person's internal state of mind is different.  Someone who made bad choices in a war, for example may not have had the same state as another who went out of his way to cause people to suffer on a day to day basis.

The life review is meaningless if we aren't moved by what we see.  So those of us who distance ourselves from love through deliberate bad choices and sadistic thinking may not get one. I've read accounts like this.  Yet people are so complex in their thoughts and actions, it is rare that one isolates himself from God in such a way completely.

M

None of us really knows another person's motivations. I feel that this is simply not a decision we can make very effectively as humans. It may seem repellent to some that a person not 'pay' for what they have done in an 'eye for an eye' fashion. However, that does not seem to be the message of forgiveness to me.

The story of Rose Mapendo which I posted above shows that great adversity can be a motivator toward good, for some. It doesn't mean the experience of prison and torture was good, but it means that sometimes the human spirit can rise above it.

This person, Rose, a genocide survivor, has a special ability to understand the needs of refugees, because she has been one. So, each of us, who has been through adversity, has the choice to bring a light into the situation for others.

Maybe not everyone can do this. But that is why some people are called heroes. Every one of us has the potential to be heroes, like Rose. Every one of us has some 'area of expertise' like Rose.

What do we teach our children? To go out and help make the world a better place.  It seems to me...that is all about love. Some people may be shocked that Rose would name her children after her oppressors. But think, now, after this generation, perhaps the name will be a better one than it was before. That is love.

love, blink

Matthew,


Quote:

The life review is meaningless if we aren't moved by what we see.

I agree but I find it hard to belive that Hitler would not be moved by his life review,

Of course that if on passing over he remains the remorseless psychopath he was in life  Then he would not be moved just like you said

Alan

I guess even setting aside the implications of the various cosmologies it seems like there's so many variables in play that it's very tough to predict what might happen in an individual case Blink.

Setting aside the above it's perhaps too a lot about language and meaning too Alan. A wholly egocentric being may out of attachment to the physical after death refuse to move on from this reality. This apparently results in a slow loss of energy and eventual death - or attempts to parasitically leech energy from others to survive.

They may also as you say reside in (actually create) a domain that amounts to a hell - as a result of their beliefs, or of the vibe they are drawn to.

Others may move on, but after an initially pleasant afterlife experience suffer a difficult life review (which is often cast as  judgement, but from the ACIM perspective is more of a process) - or less so if there are ameliorating aspects to the person so they feel less guilt.

What I'm getting at is that it's easy for us to be talking of the same events, but attributing different meanings to them.

Is it a case of God sitting in judgement, or is it a natural process driven by the nature of mind? Does God assign punishment, or do we create it ourselves and God allow us the free will to do so? Is it a biblical/orthodox Christian hell to which people are 'condemned', or is it a self created reality the result again of mind? Does God refuse survival for the truly evil, or is it just that they will not move on to an environment that allows survival? Or is it that by having nothing of spiritual value they are not allowed to survive, or that they just have nothing to of reality to save? Is the whole creation of God, or of ego but with God operating within it? Is it a case of remaining wherever forever, or it just a case that it takes long time for some of us to release very strongly held beliefs in separation and aggression? Is it a case of our having to find our own way back to God/Spirit by changing our view, or is it a matter of God bringing the 'good' to their just reward?

Could it even be that elements of many of these dimensions are in play all at once?

I guess the only point I'm trying to make here is that language is very limited, and different use of words can (perhaps unintentionally) imply very different scenarios when the substance of the situation is largely the same. Easy to end up debating over perceived differences that in some ways don't amount to much....

Hey Ian

Your quote

Quote:

They may also as you say reside in (actually create) a domain that amounts to a hell - as a result of their beliefs, or of the vibe they are drawn to

"Thanks Ian" no one in my opinion can improve on this statement of wisdom of yours



What you have stated so correctly and exactly what I was trying to get across since I entered this thread. God does not judge Hitler or burn him in a hell forever. He creates his own hell. And remember the Disc notion, in his disc group he would be surrounded by other dark bleak souls like himself.

The question, therefore begs can he ever extricate himself from that dark reality

Alan

Cricket said:
Rather appropriate for this thread - the guy who wrote "Amazing Grace", John Newton, was a slave trader who continued to trade in slaves for 40 years after the storm that initially got him thinking on the subject of grace.
________

ah, thank u Cricket. this illustrates my point precisely that we can find examples in history of brutes who go through a transformation due to the suffering they have brought upon others. because what they dish out returns to them. I'm thinking Newton must have beat the bodies of the slaves. this act alone would bring their suffering home to him, for what you do to another (or the many) you only do to yourself in the end. life is nothing but a boomarang. the pain and suffering caused by his actions would cause this bottoming out and eventually he would crash out of his belief system, which is like an ego death. the appropriate moment for the ineffiable moment of saving grace to descend.  a moment of oh god, I have been so wrong, thought/pain.

a humility situation sets up transformation factor.  You can also read Monroe in Ultimate Journeys, that he gives grace a new name for our century..Excom. short for Executive Committee.

I think that's funny. love Monroe, he's so darn inventive. Also Bruce mentions in his books going through a belief system crash, so intense that he thought he was dying. or going crazy..I mean, which is worse, going crazy, or dying? I can tell Bruce tries to put words around what he was feeling, and it's impossible to describe such experiences really.

one other fellow was a real brute, to everyone he met in life. Dannion Brinkley, went thru an NDE and a complete personality transformation, to the point, where he lost his wife, as she didn't know who he was anymore, he was so transformed by this power which is there, which I call grace that causes transformation of the self. A former mean guy is now filled with love for humanity, writing books, doing what he can to help out people. amazing story.

About Newton and Amazing Grace. the tune has become like a religious national anthem in history. the effects of that piece of work also will rebound unto this soul, for every person who sings it, or feels something by reading it; many, many people have been effected by this song, either subtly, or profoundly.
Newton is reaping those effects of a positive nature. that's what I meant, that he could be in a very good place, where he  has gotten off the wheel of incarnating, here where all the suffering is. so even if he is not a master, I still think he did a good job here, and he truly was a wretched person to hit others. how awful to suffer their pain and realize you are the biggest chump in the whole world.

something would have to prevent such a one from blowing his own brains out. something like Love, something like a blinding light, which was Brinkley's experience..and it salvages the soul.

here's something for Alan to think about. I have been thinking about you, and suffering right along with you concerning the holocaust. I'm not Jewish in this life, but I feel I was there, in two or three different bodies. have obsessed on it for years. I am at rest about it now.
_____
http://www.earthlypursuits.com/WLLDM/WLLDML.htm

Alan; no matter what they say, Justice is in the Universe. Nobody gets away with anything around here of a malicious nature; even though I tout amazing grace that comes from god, within us, still, in a sense, that grace is only available after the death of the self serving ego which is of the utmost anquish.
____
From the link above: This is Letters from a dead man, and the Ebook is about a minister who died, and decided to try and help from the other side, it was during WWII.
______
Quote:   That though evil is a necessity so long as good exists, though evil is the other pole of the magnet, yet it is the duty of those who desire to walk the White Road ever to do battle for the right. And this is no repudiation of the saying of the Christ, “Resist not evil.” A paradox, you say? Great wisdom is locked in paradoxes, for those who have the key. The existence of evil gives greater strength to good. This is the Kali Yuga, as the Hindoos say.
           That this war is an attempt of the personal evil forces to destroy mankind. A former attempt was made in Europe before the so-called Dark Ages, but the Renaissance followed and restored the balance.
           That man has in himself both the Christ principle and the demonic principle; that will is free, and that man can make his choice between them.
           That new races are born of revolutions and wars. He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.

Could a life review be a helpful learning experience to someone like Hitler? Wouldn’t it be the Hitler’s of the world that would need a life review the most? How else would they be able to change their consciousness, their state of being?

According to NDE reports a life review is usually conducted by one or more light beings. The person is shown part or all of their intentions that motivated the actions they took during their lifetime from the perspective of everyone involved, which would mean the person would get an accurate picture/understanding of the states of consciousness his/her intentions caused for self and others.

Certainly there were times in Hitler’s life that his actions were motivated by love. Maybe he had a puppy and took care of it with love being the prime motivation for feeding, playing with it, etc. I don’t know if he did or not. My point is that certainly there were times in his life that he had an intention to act out of love.

A lot of times we have mixed intentions that are not understood on the surface. For example even though Hitler had a lot of mommy issues, he loved and cared about his mother. His tyrant of a father also oppressed him, so in some ways he understood oppression. Isn’t it possible that he recognized the oppression of the German people because of his own experience/suffering of oppression? Of course he had tremendous ego needs for power over others as well. And this is what I mean by having mixed intentions for the actions he took.

Part of his intentions may have been because he cared about the German people and acted out of love to try to end their suffering even though the outcome of his actions was horrendous. Yet at the same time he had other ego/fear based intentions from which he acted as well. Wouldn’t a being of light radiating love be able to show and help Hitler understand how the loving and unloving intentions he acted from would either improve or hinder the quality of his consciousness?

It is not the actions we take or the results of those actions; it’s the intentions that motivate the actions that dictate our state of being.

This web page discusses the life review process that research has shown:
http://www.near-death.com/experiences/research24.html

Hi Alan. Sounds like maybe there's actually not that much difference in what's being said by several here despite the differences in language. An older slightly more biblical usage (versus a more new agey one) perhaps tends somehow to trigger a whole panoply of associated assumptions in many of us as to what the writer means.

It's strange how in Monroe speak a single word (or sight, or smell) can be a 'rote' - it can trigger a whole view and associated set of assumptions which may have taken a lifetime to build. Trouble is these can go on to determine how we perceive what's said.

Your story about the guy who got burnt is very powerful, and a demo of how as both yourself and Alysia are saying profound change can occur in apparently very evil persons.

Illness or other suffering can be such a powerful opener (I've experienced this, albeit to a much lesser degree) - if severe enough it as Alysia says can tip us over the edge and into dropping all ego driven attempts to exerting control, and in the resulting space we drop back to  flow/true seeing.

Add the sort of extra normal experience (which may also be a result of this opening) he had and it's clear just how profound such an experience can be.

Buddhism is full of stories of bandits and the like who as a result of personal crises saw the error of their ways, and went on to become realised. Such people provided they commit to a path are regarded as very promising students. There's also a very definite view that it's almost impossible for an ordinary ego dominated person to judge how close to realisation a person is by the behaviours they manifest.

You can for example encounter a relatively benign person who seems well advanced, but who as a result of a wide range of minor ego issues has an enormous amount of work to do in many differing areas.

You can encounter another who seems a monster, but whose wrongdoing is the result of a single or very few but very dominant wrong views. So (only) for example - perhaps Hitler thought he was doing good, was wrong in his utter commitment to use of force and authority (that the end justified the means), but that this was his only major issue.

Realisation it's said can be a very long drawn out gradual process, or like the blow of a thunderbolt. Eckhardt Tolle as somebody has said before was a case of somebody driven to despair by the grasping of his ego mind, but who suddenly dropped it.

The result could be that a major life crisis that collapsed Hitler's single wrong belief could have set him free. Or not, perhaps he had many other issues too.

But you get the drift - this is another way our perception of others can be misleading. And by treating that person as a monster instead of with love we actually act to bring the very behaviour we fear into existence, because behaviours always reciprocate.....

Alysia


Quote:

Alan; no matter what they say, Justice is in the Universe. Nobody gets away with anything around here of a malicious nature; even though I tout amazing grace that comes from god, within us, still, in a sense, that grace is only available after the death of the self serving ego which is of the utmost anquish

Yes Alysia, amazing grace is a gift from God , he holds it out for all of us to take, but if we do not take the effort to remove it from his hand and take it as our own, it is not the fault of God

Alan

I'm thinking Newton must have beat the bodies of the slaves. this act alone would bring their suffering home to him, for what you do to another (or the many) you only do to yourself in the end.

And there's another possibly relevant (to this thread) thing.  Newton apparently was no worse (but no better) than any other slave trader of the time.  When he had his life-changing experience with the storm, he wasn't instantly tranformed (as mentioned above, it was forty years later that he finally got out of his past ways), but apparently quite early on he made a point of making sure his men treated the captives less cruelly.

So it wasn't an over-night thing, but a slow, gradual change.  It may be that Hitler is slowing working his way up "over there", using what he's learning about what he did to learn more, building on that foundation and slowly, slowly, become someone new.

yes, you got the idea correctly Cricket to my mind. Although I'm studying Monroe, not Hitler, I can share what I'm learning  from Ultimate Journeys in relationship to this topic thread and human consciousness in general.

page 171: (Monroe speaks with his I/there:
M: So, I'm no more than a surrogate of you...
I/there: When you began this lifetime, yes you were. as you grew in experience, you became a brand new personality. the mix you started with has been gradually melding into a whole.
M: this is something I shall have to get used to. "I" helping "me."
Tell me, is there anything we cannot do?
I/there: I do not know what we cannot do. I am aware of what we can achieve. (the comment is illustrative of a non-dual state of mind, from his I/there, reaching into a dualistic belief system- ELS, and physical world dimension.

the point is that each lifetime, of which Monroe was given a 1,000 or more as a reference point, is a brand new consciousness emerging, but starts out as a conglomeration of the key essence personage from former incarnations, projected into physical area by the I/There.

The new personality gathers more experiences, and returns to the I/there with knowledge gained, eventually gaining all that can be gained here and graduating.
_____________
Alysia gabfest: anyhoo, apparently, each time I read Ultimate Journeys it's like I never read it before!

with Hitler,  I hope we can put this Hitler thing to rest, as it keeps coming up again and again, so eat my words, maybe there's a need to explore the subject which escapes me.

The thing to remember is that there are destructive forces in our world, and then there are constructive forces in the world.
one is negative. it says no. one is positive, it says yes.

if we see our connections as One, we simply do not kill another person for their religion or the color of their skin. we say yes to them.
Hitler made a mistake. It's up to him to change himself by asking for help  from his I/there. as I see it, his I/there makes the decisions for his on-goingness as an individual.
It's quite within the resources of the I/there to give up on this particular being, if the being refuses to join back with his I/there.

I cannot explain that. some things you just have to wait and find out later.

HI Amazing Grace i always call this little madeliene's hymn and it gives hope that one day she will be found God bless her and keep her in his love,i pray every night to God to guide little madeliene home.

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=1h4eUSAKyVA&feature=related

All of you please pray for madeleine every night as the power of prayer reachs out where it is most needed.

Love and God bless    love juditha

LaffingRain wrote on Oct 15^th, 2008 at 9:15pm:

Hi R, everybody. there's a thing called grace descends on every soul that has reached the bottom. I assume, or conjecture, as I don't know for sure about Hitler, I'm not sure about the reports a few channelers say of going to visit with Hitler. I think I'm not interested enough to do that. but the point about grace, I conjecture Hitler may have bottomed out. that's where there's no point in living. needless to say, it is awful to see nothing is worth living for. In this case, there is a grace that takes care of that person. It's beyond what I can write about. but we can contemplate on the words of a great hymm which always goes thru my mind.. to explain what grace is: "I once was lost but now am found..how precious was that grace that saved a wretch like me..amazing grace how sweet the sound.. ____ I'm willing to bet whoever wrote that song is now an ascended master because of that grace, and because of the suffering of that soul and of bottoming out. there are many among us who do bottom out, and that's when they start to perform their special function in this world, whatever that is, of lowly or high station, doesn't matter to God. grace falls on the just and the unjust in that sense. we question about what god is, when we make god into our image. grace is the best way I know of to talk of god. otherwise, looking to those who are our heroes, who were here in the flesh. we say God is. Then we cease to talk.

The thing we have to remember about Hitler is this...Fascism was a cultural experiment at that time,also that tendency is still alive in humans today as it was long before Hitler.Hitler had no power other than  through the force of his "salesmanship" the thousands of his listeners were eager receivers of the hope and promise he was offering.All those millions went into agreement with his fascist vision/concept.Hitler became a mirror,like a laser beam, he sent out the fascist beam which was then returned a thousandfold by the thronging crowds,he then collected this force and beamed it back.So it multiplied and multiplied until we all know what happened.Every human soul can only create evil acts within the capacity of a single soul.Like Don Quixote, he could have been laughed out of town if no one agreed with him.Like humans vulnerability to disease(physical) we humans are also vulnerable to mental/emotional/psychic diseases.
Fascism was a psychic disease that spread like the plague."Thought disease" another word for that is "Meme"Therefore Hitler can't possibly take all of the blame for the Nazi's transgressions.All were victims of a cultural, consensus of neurotic belief. e.g.  Belief systems territory that exist even now in the higher realms.Many years ago I met my own inner Fascist.He came toward me arms outstretched with loving acceptance.I rejected him! and immediately his eyes became crossed with hate!.He wanted to kill me!End of dream... but I awoke to the realization that disease was in me too, it was such a valuable insight.Basically fascism is so related to repression of humans sexuality and what Wilhelm Reich called "The Natural State of Man"Put a better way "Humans God Given Divine Essence".You could say then that Hitler's Fascism was a manifestation of the ultimate dysfunction of human ego.The ultimate extreme separation from God.
I quote from a poem I love...."I AM IN ALL THINGS THEREFORE ALL THINGS MUST BE TRIED'.The Divine is present in all Human activity no matter how evil.Hard to believe but I feel is true.Humanity has to take all paths good and true to find the truth of Being.
Earth is a tough school.But there is nothing to compare with it to "temper and mature the soul"Through experience soft and hard you will come to know The Truth of Being.
Enough for today.
ps. writing this stuff teaches me truth as I write..I never thought this through before like this on Fascism..
Love to all of you seekers.
Devayan.

I agree with Deva there's something about writing stuff down that yields up more insight into whatever we are discussing. I guess that's why we interact.
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I don't follow this line of thought of sexual repression compared to facism, you might want to clarify how sexual repression leads to facism, which leads to being thrown into an oven while still breathing.
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I agree with your fluent logic on everything else. particularly I see the divine in mankind active, but I had to train my mind to look for the divine in every man by opening up to that possibility, I could be closed down and blocking the divine, to see that. and after all, we have to decide also, to define what divine means.
we use names for the Light. God, Atman, Higher Self, the labels are endless and confusing. better to be an agnostic than to be fooled by any other person's definition of what divine is.

While I did for awhile see Hitler as being like a pawn once, and that things just got away from him, I also can see papers in front of him which required his signature before further implementation of further laws to make murder legal. yes, murder was legal then.
it  was his right to refuse to sign papers. he didn't refuse, and I wonder if he felt coerced to go with the tide? Of course everything cannot be put on him and we have to look at the larger picture that it is death itself that this world is about, even with the god like virtues we can see operating alongside the cruelty and selfishness ideals.

I have one more additional thought to add here to this topic: a teacher told me of this idea. she was quite human as well as virtuous.

I might add, because she did not repress her sexuality, she fell in love with a gay minister, and this expressed in an obe, interpreted by the other minister as a threat to his well being. our church fell apart, although "it was only natural to her." I stood beside her, and I also stood beside the gay minister. I saw nothing wrong going on here, which couldn't be resolved, and didn't take sides. I don't think you really know anything about the path of celibacy as a chosen path, is not the same as sexual repression as related to Victorian ideals.
I submit, monogamy, weather in gay relationships, or heterosexual is the wiser course to take. I also vouch for the oldest profession in the world, is needed and should be respected, because men confuse their sex drive with their aggressiveness and they need an outlet. for the average man I speak.

the true celibate has no such build up to release. The love of God, whatever that means to facist or agnostic, or guru, or whatever, takes care of the physical needs of this person. but then, you'd have to be there to understand.personal exploration into our own consciousness and reporting those experiences, here, or anywhere, is what Monroe and Bruce support, for like Deva and myself here, I think I can speak for all of us, that we teach the very thing we need to learn.

by sharing our insights, writing it down. I have great hopes for this century. I call it the shift in consciousness.

a borrowed term, but yet, so what? don't we borrow from everyone while we're growing and becoming?

I was going to report a glimmer Thelma gave me. the lady above. she said dark forces are merely the absence of light. they are let into ELS at certain points of history making. she said the dark seeks the dark, to strengthen the dark. what happens is the dark ends up destroying itself; in the end. this is because, even though the dark knows it cannot increase itself forever, it has it's function, it's job to do regardless, as each dark spark enjoys it's function, as a challenge, and thinks, therefore, what thinks, says "I am." the dark must invent problems and carry the energy forward of an invented problem.

the thing to take comfort in a world of duality..is Light increases faster than darkness. this is my belief, I have support in various places.
that's what we're in now, that speed up of Light. if you choose to believe, then you pull the light from the darkness, and say, let there be light. through what you choose to believe. for always there is choice between light or dark thoughts. it is a world of self determination in that sense. Hitler knew about self determination.
He was into the black arts. he chose that. he was into being powerful.
I do think you can lose your soul to choose darkness.

I spoke of amazing grace because, I believe ideally, that God's love is so powerful, it could even mend the greatest of the dark power driven souls. It is a wish. I know nothing but my own experiences. much of this might be blather.
In essence what Thelma taught is that even the dark forces were allowed to bring a higher balance into ELS.

For the good that happened during the Holocaust was that, the Jews were driven from their homeland, they were virtually homeless; after the Holocaust the need for to reestablish their homeland became obvious. this group of people were sacrifices to ELS. and they knew it before they came. they are heroes in that sense. For most of the civilized world we then could measure that man has two sides to his nature: one is power driven, the other is divine.
or we could say, there is the self serving ego in us.
on the other hand, there is Light in us, which speaks always for allowing and that means, there really is no reason to kill anything, except that the ego would make it's own design, such as "all blue eyed blondes are superior to brown eyed dark haired Jews."

The Jews are exceptionally intelligent people, and on the other hand, so can the gentile be brilliant the same. it has nothing to do with races as pertaining to the individual body and it's current DNA.
As far as skin color goes, a survey was taken of who does the most serial killing. the white race does.
so in a sense what Thelma said is somewhat true. the dark forces were here to unplug the negativity so we could move on into greater areas of positive action. but it doesn't mean God had anything to do with killing.  or wars. it means our egos created this world in joint contract.

so we could experience how we are able to make a world. it has many wonders in it, and beauty, and love, as well the other side of ugliness cannot be ignored or pushed away either. by focusing the mind on the power of creativity, together, we can help bring in the Light.

but you cannot focus in two directions at once. you must either focus on the Light, or focus on the dark. you cannot serve two masters.

sorry to take up all of cyberspace with words. I close reading from Letter from a Dead Man:
Examine yourselves dear children. Look for your faults. If you can find no fault in yourself, hang your harp on the nearest willow, for your progress is at an end.
man progresses through recognizing his faults, through transmuting them and transcending them. If you are perfect, this world is no place for you.
Beyond good and evil is where we are headed for eventually.
Judge not, that ye be not judged. but do not flirt with the devil to prove that you judge him not.
Yes, all men are your brothers, even bad men. Attend to your own affairs and leave the issue with God. This much to you, dera children of the world, from my vantage place above your passions.

Hi Laffingrain.
You had some confusion on my comment of sexual repression.
A pure healthy spiritually balanced human soul is also balanced in their sexual life as in all other aspects of their life.What Wilhelm Reich wrote in his wonderfull book that came out in the early 70's was that with the fascist mentality they were unable to experience sexual union with their partner..It unavoidably involved coldness and violence. If you can get the book it is still worth reading its called "
The Function of the Orgasm" Given that Fascist personality was so remote from Divinity(true divinity) it was unable to experience soulfull union with their partner.True love is union....The ego disappears into oneness in that delightful moment.Its a way fro us space/time bound beings to experience cosmic unity whilst still ina physical body.The Fascist mind can never do that.
Love Devayan

thanks Deva, I never thought of it that way but makes sense. it's like saying the facist is just an animal, equating sex with an aggressive type of "survival" chakra.
thinking on the 7 chakras, the first is concerned with fight or flight, or survival. the 2nd is sexual or procreative urges, the 3rd is the seat of personal power. this explains a facist's development.

Hilter never got to the fourth, the heart chakra opening. wow. that's sad, because that's where you feel love. and maybe he never felt love. well, I'm not wasting my time anymore dissecting facist.

not my job description. but thanks so much, it's clearer now.