Hi all. This is a subject that often gets overlooked.

Most spiritual paths/traditions start with a code of conduct for living in the everyday world, and then move on to teach an alternative way of looking at things which shows how our naturally conditioned perception of reality is often based at best on a misinterpretation of causes and consequences (why things happen the way they do)  - usually the result of the application of dog eat dog adversarial thinking, as opposed to love.

The bit that's often missed in this latter part is that the thinking/theory  that shows why this is the case is only one side (and the minor one) of the issue. What matters much more is the use of meditation, study, contemplation, prayer, and assistance of the Holy Spirit in real life situations (especially in relationships) to initially understand, then try out and experience the teaching, and ultimately to intuitively just 'know and do' what's right. Guidance and insight with time come on stream.

This latter entails calming the thinking mind, opening to the possibility that there's other ways to see things as well as in accordance with our conditioning, and in absence of mental noise starting increasingly to hear the still small voice of our intuitive/empathetic/heart/knowing side - you could say Spirit.

The result is personal transformation - our view (how we see ourselves and the world, and how we relate to both) changes, we become much less belief and much more reality or true seeing driven, and we start increasingly to live through love. We progress from realising after thought what we should do, to through conscious effort getting ourselves to do it, to it's becoming our natural unthinking response.

We ultimately as a result of extra normal experience come to see the illusory nature of self, of body and mind, and of this world, and of ego driven conventional dog eat dog behaviours as the route to ending suffering - more and more we see that reality is far greater than we perceived, that all is one, and that love (wisely applied) is always the solution.

Why this piece? I guess that my sense is that not so many make the transition from intellectual  discussion of spiritual topics to working the spiritual path of personal transformation. I'd just like to put the issue on the table for comment.

It's akin to the difference between talking theoretically from the couch about your favourite sport, and with the help of a coach doing self work to improve your performance as a player. (except that this is the game of life, so you play it 100% of the time, even when you are learning!)

Self work involves continuous self study and evaluation of our actions and motives to gain insight, and great bravery ('warriorship') to apply in life what seems from teaching to make sense, but goes against our conditioning.

It's not the easiest step to take. Many spiritual books do a great job of setting out the 'why' but don't get down to the specific practicalities, and talk the happy happy high level side instead. Many spiritual groups teach meditation, but don't have experienced teachers able to work one to one with students on personal transformation. Buddhism repeatedly talks about the role of the teacher, but the practicality of most Western Buddhist groups is that experienced teachers are not usually easily accessible.

We're all ready to blather and theorise, but far less ready to get down to the hard work of personal change and transformation.

We're all different, and have our own issues. We're anyway at differing stages on the path, and may need to work anything from quite obvious conventional behavioural issues, to very subtle aspects of working with mind and view.

Those of us that work alone end up relying on reading and life experience for personal insight, and this is a hard road in that it's so difficult to see ourselves and our behaviours in perspective. (fish can't say very much about water - it's always just been there :-))

One advantage of e.g. ACIM is that while it pitches quite a subtle non-dual message it's set up to cover this ground, and to assist those working alone - to deliver teaching (the text), to deliver experience of applying the teaching (the workbook), and to train teachers. (the teachers manual).

We commonly think that the way we are is fixed, but actually mind is incredibly malleable....

Over to you guys....

Ian said: We commonly think that the way we are is fixed, but actually mind is incredibly malleable

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I've been noticing this is true Ian, what u said above. I can't begin to tell you about dreams I've had where everything looks so dire, and then a little thought put into it, and everything becomes bright again. I consider that my mind's ability to change.
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as regarding ACIM. there is one particular daily lesson I was always fond of, using it many years to produce change in my viewpoint.
It was "I wish to see this differently."

then I would imagine, that my turning over the little willingness to see it differently would be in HS's hands, as all HS needs is your little willingness. another way of saying this, is the desire to consider possibilities...all possibilities. in order to choose which possible plan I might like to experience.

if I were in a fear thought, I would check to see what happened if I came to face the fear in real life.
I see that I would just start over if I failed and so the fearful circumstance happening could not actually end my purpose.

but if I was stuck in just my own viewpoint and really wanted to see another's viewpoint, this is called argument. then it would always work for me to turn it over to HS, and ask to see it differently.

sometimes a day or so goes by, maybe a week, even longer, but sooner or later, you can see it differently, and this relieves the burden of the limited viewpoint.

thanks for your post :)

Vajra and Alysia:

It's funny how you two like ACIM and I don't.  It might have some good things to say, but I just can't accept the idea that God has nothing to do with this World. My higher self/spirit guidance has helped me quite a bit, and steared me away from ACIM.

What precisely is non-duality? I used to be into Advaita Vedanta and Chan Buddhism so I understand what it usually means.  But can the creative and awareness aspects of ourselves really be seperate from each other?  How are we supposed to learn what the creative part of ourselves is about, if we never figure out what it's about?  Should a kid measure the value of his life by how nursery school goes, or should he or she see what the rest of life is about before concluding that life is a big mistake that God has nothing to do with?

Here are links about Mkultra and and then about how it relates to ACIM. I believe all three of us are interested in serving the light. Yet we have different viewpoints when it comes to ACIM. In the interest of serving the light, perhaps we should get to the bottom of what ACIM is all about.

Regarding Groeschel, Mark Cuneo speaks about him in his book "American Exorcism" and going by what he said, it doesn't seem like Groeschel is overly quick to demonize people. I'm not saying Helen Schuchman was effected by demons, but it is very possible that Groeschel can be trusted when he states that Helen was in a negative state of mind during her later years.


http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=mkultra&aq=f&oq=

http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread286946/pg


A COURSE IN MIRACLES - A CIA MANIPULATION DEVICE?
www.hometown.aol.com...

from Tal Levesque's Research Services: June 11, 2007

(QUOTE)

‘Creating a mythos’ to control people.

Program of psychological warfare (PSYOP) or ‘Mind War’.

* Using FALSE information to manipulate and control people.

A Course in Miracles (also referred to as ACIM or "the Course"),[originally published in 1975] is a book considered by its students to be their "spiritual path".

According to Dr. Helen Schucman and the Foundation for Inner Peace (FIP), Dr. Helen Schucman and

Dr. William Thetford "scribed" the book by means of a process coming from a divine source through a form of channeling which Schucman referred to as "inner dictation". Schucman described the divine source of her channeling as none other than the person of Jesus Christ.

Well.... Dr. William Thetford, headed the CIA's "Mind Control" MK-ULTRA SubProject 130: Personality Theory, while at Columbia University between 1971-1978.

Dr. Thetford’s Professional Bio, also available on the A Course in Miracles web site, makes reference to his involvement in a Personality Theory Research Project while Professor of Medical Psychology at Columbia University, but the information does not specifically cite this as a CIA MK- ULTRA SubProject.

ce399.typepad.com...

There is a connection between Unity Church, "A Course In Miracles", MK-ULTRA Artichoke Subproject 130 ; Scientology ; the UFO Myth and the Stanford Research Institute.

"A Course in Miracles" was a CIA manipulation device.

It was an experiment orchestrated by the CIA/US government.

Many were DAMAGED by it.

It was implemented Bill Thetford (an agent of the CIA) at Columbia University.

Search for info on Thetford and MKUltra (the government's well-documented mind-control program) to find more.

The agenda, according to those interested in this sphere of investigation, is to inflitrate and dilute the American left with New Age ideas and inward-focussed, anti-rational religious movements.
*****************************************




The Making of 'A Course in Miracles'



Excerpt from : www.beliefnet.com...

William Thetford, also a Columbia professor, was a mysterious character, and "probably the most sinister person I ever met," the priest recalled. Only after he retired from teaching did Thetford's Columbia colleagues (who knew him best as a rare-books expert) discover that all during the years they worked with him, the man had been employed as an agent of the CIA--one who was, among other things, present at the first fission experiment conducted by physicists assigned to the Manhattan Project. Thetford also was "the most religious atheist I have ever known," Groeschel recalled, and conceived a great enthusiasm for A Course in Miracles, personally arranging for its publication. Schucman was embarrassed, Groeschel remembered, and confided to the priest her fear that the book would create a cult, which of course it did.

Groeschel initially read the Course as "religious poetry," but grew steadily more negative in his assessment of it as the years passed and sales of the three volumes passed into the millions of copies. From his point of view, A Course in Miracles served to undermine authentic Christianity more effectively than just about any other work he could recall, and while he was inclined to reject the position of St. John of the Cross that "these things are diabolical unless proven otherwise," doubts had crept in over the years. Most troubling to him by far was the "black hole of rage and depression that Schucman fell into during the last two years of her life," the priest explained. She had become frightening to be with, Groeschel recalled, spewing psychotic hatred not only for A Course in Miracles but "for all things spiritual." When he sat at Schucman's bedside as she lay dying, "she cursed, in the coarsest barroom language you could imagine, `that book, that goddamn book.' She said it was the worst thing that ever happened to her. I mean, she raised the hair on the back of my neck. It was truly terrible to witness."

(END OF QUOTE)

I have nothing to say about your post R. I only relate what my experiences with ACIM are and continue to be inspired by the material.

to each his own. god bless. Ian may discuss with you the pros and cons.
I choose not to.
I am to become ACIM teacher. so you see I don't believe what anybody says on the internet.

A spirit was with me when I did the Course. the spirit is still with me. It is DP. my other life as a minister. we have merged as one. He knows JC personally, and this material came from JC.

that is all I have to say. no wait, I have one more thing to say, as I said before, as I will say forever, knock yourself out proving whatever you wish to prove.

Alysia:

As you know, I prayed to God and Christ a number of times and asked if ACIM comes from Christ, and on each occasion was told "no."

Perhaps I interpreted the messages I received incorrectly.

-One time I asked and was shown four pages from the course that were highlighted in a manner to show that a lot of errors can be found.

-One time a copy of the book was brought within my vision, and the name was rubbed out so it no longer said "A course in miracles."

-One time one of the books that translates the course was thrown to the ground.

-One time the book started to move into my vision, it faded back into the darkness, and a copy of the Holy Bible came clearly into view. I took this to mean that Bible is more accurate when it comes to representing the words of Jesus than ACIM.

-One time I had a dream where I was with the spiritual group I used to belong with, and at the end of the dream a man shook me vigorously and asked, "Why did you do it, why did you do it, why did you allow yourself to be brainwashed again?" He was speaking of ACIM and it did have a brainwashing effect at the time.

-I've had two other dreams that represented ACIM in unpositive ways.

-One time I was told, "Drop it, it makes the ego bigger."

-I've also received a few other messages that didn't represent the course in a positive way.

I figure the course has some good things to say. Why else would good loving people like it? However, because its source is questionable, it is possible that it is erroneous at times. If a person believes it comes from Christ, he or she might consider it to be infallible.

To me, the course seems to be a mixture of Freudian psychology, Christian Science and Vedanta.  William Tetford's parents were regular members of Christian science.  This explains how he learned about such principles.  Because he was an atheist and into mind control projects for the CIA, it is easy to see how he could be a person who would have no problem with misrepresenting Christ. I'm not certain,  but I believe that I once read that Helen Schuchman also had exposure to Christian Science. As psychologists, it is obvious where the Freudian influences came from.

Perhaps it would be better for a person to pray to Christ and ask him if ACIM comes from him, before he or she concludes that the Course does. If a person believes that Helen Schuchman could make contact with Christ, then why wouldn't such a person believe that he or she can make contact with Christ?  If a person wants instruction from Christ, then why not make contact with him directly? If it is possible to make contact with the holy spirit, then why wouldn't it be possible to make contact with Christ? Why not allow Christ the opportunity to directly let you know what he is about, rather than rely on a book?

R says:
It's funny how you two like ACIM and I don't.  It might have some good things to say, but I just can't accept the idea that God has nothing to do with this World. My higher self/spirit guidance has helped me quite a bit, and steared me away from ACIM.
____
when you're ready, you will have to learn it's message. in order to graduate off the wheel of reincarnation, you will have to learn to forgive all those who hold a different belief system, or are a different culture or color of skin. you will have to release this world, from your addiction to coming back. That is what ascension means.
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What precisely is non-duality?
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non duality is to be of one mind, rather than to believe everything, you believe only what is your personal experience, not hearsay from others. you are one pointed, you are never in conflict.
It is to believe in God, with all your mind, your heart and your soul, and there is nothing else. this world is not the making of God because God does not believe in death. We do.
God believes in life everlasting.
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I used to be into Advaita Vedanta and Chan Buddhism so I understand what it usually means.
__
I do not believe you have a good grasp of Buddhism either.
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 But can the creative and awareness aspects of ourselves really be seperate from each other?
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yes. I believe this happened to me. I was creating my personal reality however I was quite unconscious of how I was creating it.
therefore I was unaware of my true self and what I really wanted was simply peace of mind. ACIM helped me realize what I really wanted.
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 How are we supposed to learn what the creative part of ourselves is about, if we never figure out what it's about?
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We're here to figure it out by at the beginning of any spiritual path, you admit first that you don't know. then you proceed to get your knowing. just as you are doing now, right?
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Should a kid measure the value of his life by how nursery school goes, or should he or she see what the rest of life is about before concluding that life is a big mistake that God has nothing to do with?
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So are you saying we're in nursery school right now? you would be right, in terms of human spiritual evolvement compared to JC who is not here in a flesh body because he ascended. Someday you will ascend too, if you could see we all the potential to go his path. If he says God did not create war, killing, rape, murder, plundering of the Earth, then I tend to agree, he speaks the truth.
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Here are links about Mkultra
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and why are seeking negative commentaries on ACIM? and who is Mkultra, and why should I listen to this one?
has he ascended yet? is he your brother?
I think you just look for ways to support your own belief system because you do not believe all of us have a spark of divinity in us, even this Mkultra person does. yet I believe I need listen to no one but my own heart, my own higher self, therefore I too am ascending. watch my dust. (I have an ego, but it's dying.) No, God has no invitation into your heart, the way I see it. you do not invite God.
try it some time. if u did invite god, you would know how much you are hurting me right now, and I will have to seek the word of god again to release you. I will pray for a miracle for you. I think god has sent me to you. it is for my strength and your salvation.
_____
I believe all three of us are interested in serving the light. Yet we have different viewpoints when it comes to ACIM. In the interest of serving the light, perhaps we should get to the bottom of what ACIM is all about.
_____
ok, but I don't see how YOU can get to the bottom of it, as you haven't read the entire book, nor have you spent an entire year doing the 365 lesson plans. nor have u read the teacher manual because it's too difficult, or you don't have the time. or you have blocks.
but someday, you will have to learn it, mark my words, the truth in it can be found in all great literature. It says you are love.
you say you want to serve the light. the light is love. love is god.
I am love. when I am not loving I am in my ego centered system of duality and contraversy. that is where you take me.
I am here to bring u up. u are here to take me down. that is my ego.
you also have an ego. but our essence is love.

when we get home, we will see the work we did here, we will see what we did for the sake of love, and what was done to injure one another by gossip. the internet is nothing but a big gossip fest.
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but it is very possible that Groeschel can be trusted when he states that Helen was in a negative state of mind during her later years.
___
I fail to see the connection between whatever state of mind she was in what that has to do with ACIM, as the book was written through her, not by her. and, since I consider heresay to be gossip from unenlightened beings, I have no reason to put stock into it.
why don't you give as much time to finding positives as you do to finding negatives?
______

‘Creating a mythos’ to control people.
______
and what do u think traditional Christianity has done if not to control them? ACIM offers to place the power in the hands of the individual to think for themselves, rather than be dictated to by the church. Christ did not establish a religion. it was brotherhood he wished to establish, by his words The father who is in me doeth the works. not himself.
_____

A Course in Miracles (also referred to as ACIM or "the Course"),[originally published in 1975] is a book considered by its students to be their "spiritual path".
____
it is a path, as the message cannot be grasped unless you live it. that's why you cannot just glance at it and say ok I know what it's about. you have to actually meditate on what it says, or you won't find the peace of mind that is offered therein.
______

Dr. William Thetford "scribed" the book by means of a process coming from a divine source through a form of channeling which Schucman referred to as "inner dictation". Schucman described the divine source of her channeling as none other than the person of Jesus Christ.
____
yes, it is JC himself. it could be no one else. he is/was radical person, but also very loving and never told a lie.
in 75 years all most people will know it was him.
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Search for info on Thetford and MKUltra (the government's well-documented mind-control program) to find more.
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I do not subscribe to any government conspiracys of any sort. I don't think the government knows what they are doing any more than does the man in the street. ACIM simply says we are all insane. speaking of the ego that goes here. if we all are insane, then that means God could not have created an insane planet. but that doesn't mean god deserted us, it means we have self responsibility to get ourselves back home. that's what ACIM says, it's up to us to ask for help from higher source.
_________

The agenda, according to those interested in this sphere of investigation, is to inflitrate and dilute the American left with New Age ideas and inward-focussed, anti-rational religious movements.
______
Religion will still be around for many years, but even religion changes as people change. New ones pop up, you can't stop "new" from replacing "old."

ACIM is the only spot of sanity I have found on this planet.
thank you very much R, I didn't know I had a sermon in me!

:D

Alysia:

Check with me about a billion lifetimes from now, and I still won't be ready for the course. I see that Gary Renard is getting to you.

I read over two hundred pages of the course before I realized how it was brainwashing me. Regarding the 365 day thing, I started to do it, but then the need to do so came to an end.  One time I was wondering about the course, and I was shown an image of a man. I recognized this man from magazine advertisement. I looked at his add and it spoke of a 365 day course of instruction he offers. I could tell this wasn't a confirmation for the course. I find it hard to believe that Christ would put together a one size fits all 365 day course that is largely made up of a bunch of afirmations. The spirit instruction I receive isn't composed of afirmations. It "isn't" presented in a manner that would suit everybody else. Each of us has unique needs. How could these needs be met by a one course fits all approach?

Alysia said: "you will have to learn to forgive all those who hold a different belief system, or are a different culture or color of skin. you will have to release this world, from your addiction to coming back. That is what ascension means."

Recoverer responds: "Please forgive me for believing that ACIM doesn't come from Christ. Please forgive me for believing it is a travesty that he has been misrepresented by ACIM. "

[quote author=recoverer link=1223067594/0#4 date=1223077446]Alysia:

As you know, I prayed to God and Christ a number of times and asked if ACIM comes from Christ, and on each occasion was told "no."

Perhaps I interpreted the messages I received incorrectly.
____
sometimes we can interpret incorrectly our symbols given. I have done that. later, thinking it over, I discovered I was wrong.
as I told you awhile back, you can learn what truth is from any number of paths, and get the same truth that comes from ACIM. the main point for any soul to get is the idea that we love our enemies.
that includes people who are on a different path than yours. even if you despise their path, they have a right to follow their path, so long as it does not cause injury to another, it's none of your business but to love them.
_____

-One time I asked and was shown four pages from the course that were highlighted in a manner to show that a lot of errors can be found.
____
u r the type of person has a large ego, goes looking for the contradictions. that is your path. whatever you look for, is easy to find. focus on the positive, it's just as easy to find the positives as the negatives.
______

-One time a copy of the book was brought within my vision, and the name was rubbed out so it no longer said "A course in miracles."
___
this I interpret in my own way, that you are the one elected to rub it out as best u can. since I am the one elected to spread this book, we now create something new together. u essentially are strengthening me, I've been called the queen of ACIM. u r trying to bring down the queen. sorry. it can't be done. lol. I love you for trying, it makes me stronger!
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-One time one of the books that translates the course was thrown to the ground.
___
Yes, but I'm connected to JC. he was thrown down to. I don't expect any better treatment than he got.
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-One time the book started to move into my vision, it faded back into the darkness, and a copy of the Holy Bible came clearly into view. I took this to mean that Bible is more accurate when it comes to representing the words of Jesus than ACIM.
____
I don't believe the bible is accurate. things were rearranged to much as time went on. I could not find much about JC in it even. these are things we should do in our own meditation. as well the main admonition is to treat others as you would like to be treated.
anger is never justified according to ACIM. therefore I'm sorry I got angry at you. I know it's not justified.
JC forgave those who killed him, so I can forgive those who seek to prove me wrong also. It's easy after awhile, and gives me peace of mind to forgive.
_____

-One time I had a dream where I was with the spiritual group I used to belong with, and at the end of the dream a man shook me vigorously and asked, "Why did you do it, why did you do it, why did you allow yourself to be brainwashed again?" He was speaking of ACIM and it did have a brainwashing effect at the time.
____
well you're brainwashing yourself to seek out only the negative end of things like you do. singing the blues all the time, that's what you get, if you do what you've always done you get what you've always gotten.
the blues. it's your path. seek a miracle and get one of those. all you have to do is ask for help from the same god we all share, the Father who was in JC, who did the works.
talk to him yourself. he'd be willing to see you again.
_____

-I've had two other dreams that represented ACIM in unpositive ways.

-One time I was told, "Drop it, it makes the ego bigger."
_____
your ego is already pretty big. I mean I like it, I like what you've done, I can see your work. but ACIM tells you that the ego is vicious here. and my experience is that you are vicious to me, so that's why I say your ego is big. you don't care about me.
you don't show it. but at the same time I see higher purpose acting here, that your viciousness only makes me stronger to fight the lies about ACIM.  ACIM heals the separation between man and god.

it says we are dreaming here. as well, it is like a night mare some of the things that go on. if we heal the separation, we do it one by one, as a self study course. not through religion which is failing to enlighten the people. religion means the responsibility for change in society is falling on the minister. ACIM says the responsibility is on the individual for society's changes.
sounds democratic to me.
______

I figure the course has some good things to say. Why else would good loving people like it?
___
why would good loving people like it? maybe because it fell out of the sky into their hands when they were on their knees crying out god I can't go on! I'm a worthless bum taking up space in the world, please let me go home!  if u were down this far and a spirit came up to you, held your hand and said I love you, I am with you, we can heal together and follow the wisdom of love and loving, then u would know what it was that made that person good and loving.
____

However, because its source is questionable, it is possible that it is erroneous at times.
___
no, it is consistent. says the same thing over and over in different worlds, simply that god loves you. there is no error in it. the error is in our own minds.
_____

If a person believes it comes from Christ, he or she might consider it to be infallible.
_____
I know Christ. I believe that. I repeat, it IS infallible. but I will allow you your disbelief, as there's room enough for both of us on this board. however, to get it's message, of the content, rather than the form, you do not have to believe it is JC.
I think it also helps to call upon the HS for guidance how to understand the Course message, of forgiveness.
When I read it I didn't understand automatically. I asked for assistance and received it. I would be in the book several hours a day, taking only a few pages at a time. I was slow I thought.
but better to be slow and thorough than speedy and miss the point.
_____

To me, the course seems to be a mixture of Freudian psychology, Christian Science and Vedanta.
____
you can find snippets of truth through out any book whatsoever. JC liked Helen's belief system to work through, as she was trained in Freudian basis. He knew what he was doing to pick her. and Vedanta was a part of JC's early studies. He was a man like you and me.
_______

 William Tetford's parents were regular members of Christian science.  This explains how he learned about such principles.
____
Bill had nothing to do with the writing of ACIM. it is channelled thru Helen. Bill put the notes together and organized it. he was not allowed to add to it or subtract it or change it, indeed, Helen wanted to change it too, J told her he would leave her if she did that.
If you want the best teacher of ACIM go to Kenneth Wapnick. He stepped in later to help organize things. His only job is promoting and helping people understand it.
he too is under attack on occasion. all good loving folks come under attack; it's part of the program here, can't u tell?

________

Perhaps it would be better for a person to pray to Christ and ask him if ACIM comes from him, before he or she concludes that the Course does.
____
I did pray. and this is my answer. and this it remains. it is you now who has the questions, not I.
_____

If a person believes that Helen Schuchman could make contact with Christ, then why wouldn't such a person believe that he or she can make contact with Christ?
____
exactly. so do it. I believe that totally we can.
_____

If a person wants instruction from Christ, then why not make contact with him directly?
_____
what r u waiting for? I hope not my opinion.
____

If it is possible to make contact with the holy spirit, then why wouldn't it be possible to make contact with Christ?
_____
many people do, but they are not in their bodies, they have died.
I believe we can ask for this, but I think we have to believe first that it can be accomplished. I already have my contact. but cannot prove it.
_____

Why not allow Christ the opportunity to directly let you know what he is about, rather than rely on a book?
____
personally speaking, which is all any of us can do, a book was what I asked for from spirit as I was dying and sick of seminars.
and a book fell out of the sky. I was healed and you know the rest of the story. sort of. but you can never see inside my soul.
only god can see what's in there.

bless you, I know how you struggle. wish I could do more, share more, hold your hand, whatever.
somewhere inside of u is a sweet soul. I know this.

love, alysia

Alysia:

Check with me about a billion lifetimes from now, and I still won't be ready for the course. I see that Gary Renard is getting to you.
____
and I see that I am not getting to you. so why do you bother with me?
I am not interested in checking with you in a billion lifetimes. I duly note we are in disagreement. It does not bother me. why should it bother you?
_____

I read over two hundred pages of the course before I realized how it was brainwashing me.
___
are you a happy, satisfied, peaceful man? I don't see that in you. I see a disgruntled negative man who is brainwashed by his own belief system. we are all programmed by our beliefs. No one is right, no one is wrong...remember Monroe's premises?
think on that. We are both right. now, doesn't that feel better?
____

Regarding the 365 day thing, I started to do it, but then the need to do so came to an end.  One time I was wondering about the course, and I was shown an image of a man. I recognized this man from magazine advertisement. I looked at his add and it spoke of a 365 day course of instruction he offers. I could tell this wasn't a confirmation for the course.
____
you are acting confused. you say one time you looked at an advertisement and it wasn't a confirmation for the course, so what are you saying? never mind. if you made up your mind R, that the need to do it, came to an end, why are you telling me this? I have no need for you to do the course, other than we might be able to have a conversation if you did. rather than an arguement. but trust me, I don't want you to believe something that you can't or won't. its not up to me. I'm not in charge of you. Your life course is totally up to whatever decisions you make, and I'm sure you're capable of choosing your own spiritual path.
_____

I find it hard to believe that Christ would put together a one size fits all 365 day course that is largely made up of a bunch of afirmations.
____
one size fits all because if you believe we are all One, then truth is truth and fits all. but not all is ready yet to give up the world. think about it, would you die right now for God? give up your body and die, your life, your possessions, your self image, your money, everything for God, just for peace of mind? perhaps not. so all comes to the place of dying, at their own speed, and when they are ready, they give their life to god in return it was called salvation in the old days. it is peace of mind and I know u want it. and bad. just don't think another can hand it over like it's a possession to give away. it takes self study.
the affirmations are only the beginning point. then you have to test them out, to see for yourself if they work correctly. then if you see it is working, to make your life better, your relationships also improve, everything improves, if you test it.
but you can continue with your life as it is. it's your free will to do so. and if you are having a nice time of it, good for you!
then you don't need my lecture and we're through and I can stop fretting and you're ok. so tell me this. are you happy?
I would be thrilled to hear it.
I can say I'm happy and don't need anything now. Also I got very much from Monroe and Bruce's books. for these books are not contradictory to ACIM's message and rather complement it's messge.
____

The spirit instruction I receive isn't composed of afirmations. It "isn't" presented in a manner that would suit everybody else. Each of us has unique needs. How could these needs be met by a one course fits all approach?
______

270,000 forums currently about ACIM, I wonder how many people are on each forum? why is everybody talking about ACIM?
after all, it's just a bunch of affirmations, right?
what if there is a rote in that book? what if the passages just point in the direction of truth? and what if J wants u to move your feet in the direction of brotherhood and love, and ending the wars, what if you are blocking the truth from coming in because you're afraid you will be asked to give up the world, which you now own? You lose nothing by believing in the Course. actually, the gain of peace of mind means you can be even more efficient in the world to alleviate suffering.

First of all I'm a retriever. retrieving does alleviate suffering.
the Course just tells me why I do retrieving. It is because I love. because I am love and my ego does not know of love. I know, I'm not afraid to die now. I love you too.  :) do what you want.
we'll all end up in the same place someday. it doesn't matter our argument.

[quote author=recoverer link=1223067594/0#7 date=1223078881]Alysia said: "you will have to learn to forgive all those who hold a different belief system, or are a different culture or color of skin. you will have to release this world, from your addiction to coming back. That is what ascension means."

Recoverer responds: "Please forgive me for believing that ACIM doesn't come from Christ. Please forgive me for believing it is a travesty that he has been misrepresented by ACIM. "
_____

don't ask me to forgive you, ask him yourself.  we will end our conversation now and allow others to write their own posts.

it's wrong to hog up the board this way with ourselves. it's selfish.
I release you from any expectation I have for you to change your mind. I know you and I will be just fine to believe differently.

let it go dearie. don't beat your head into that wall again. it's not good for you. you are being watched over anyway. not by me.
take care.

Bloody hell, I shouldn't have mentioned ACIM Recoverer. That wasn't the point of the post. The idea was to get some discussion going on the distinction between theoretical (intellectualised) and practical (experiential and self work based) spirituality.

The best I can say on different teachings is that it's inevitable that we won't all always agree. But maybe we can choose to allow the space for this forum to act as a platform for all kinds of views. Each to his/her own.

ACIM mirrors to a very high degree the milennia old Eastern traditions espoused in a variety of forms by a very large part of humanity such as Buddhism, Veda, Taoism and so on - to pitch it as a part of a recent conspiracy seems a bit of a stretch.

Orthodox and more fundamentalist Christian and other religion has meanwhile long proven its effectiveness as a tool for (mis) use in manipulating populations for the benefit of those in power by reinforcing the dualistic mindset that divides humanity into sinful 'others' deserving of punishment, and the righteous 'us' as civilisers and punishers.

They of course usually teach a vengeful God whose blessing applies solely to the latter - although mind you that usually involves suffering in this life for a pay off in the next. (peculiarly enough most think they are on the 'us' side, but yet there's no shortage of 'them' available for punishing)

Quite how a body of work like ACIM that teaches the opposite (that love and forgiveness of all is always way back to Spirit, but that it's a matter of individual path), and is anyway not that easily accessed (it's quite heavy reading) can be seen as a tool of mass mind control (and the basis of a 'cult') is not very clear to me.

It seems much more likely that those pulling the strings of the fundamentalist/traditionalist religious/motherhood and apple pie brigade and the associated culture might seek to put it down - seeing it as they must as a threat to their ability to get large groups of unquestioning people fired up to do their bidding without asking too many awkward questions.

Take any of the teachers and bodies of Eastern teaching delivering a similar message that we've discussed here and somehow there's always lurid scare stories and accusations circulated about them, especially when there's a fundamentalist sentiment about.

Somehow these stories always seem to propagate without verification, to use certain loaded politically correct buzz words with negative connotations that block discussion by the target audience, and to surface on websites and the like of a particular tone.

That's not to say that teachers of any particular ilk are perfect, or that none have erred - but it's as inappropriate and unwise to suspend our discretion in engaging with any teacher, as it is to dismiss a whole body of teaching as a result of applying a rigid and narrow view.

We each have to decide what's in our interest, and in the interest of others. But as above my suggestion is that we investigate (most especially that we read the original teaching concerned with an open mind) and make our  own minds up, that we don't allow ourselves to be led by hearsay...

Albert-

Interesting that you would mention Gary Renard, author of Disappearance of the Universe.

Renard is characterized as a fraud by none other than Greg Mackie who is with Circle of Atonement, which just happens to be the major ACIM website!!

See http://www.circleofa.org/articles/Entities.php

yes Rondele, I'm aware Renard is under attack by other ACIM students/teachers. It's just ELS system, and what's his name wants to be top dog of ACIM interpretations.

the ego lives on, even in ACIM students/teachers. Good ACIM followers let it roll off their backs, as they are aware they cannot make it real, the attacks, and thru forgiveness they will demonstrate how it's done.

anyone interested, I just did a 10 page blog regarding that we are all love at our core, and it combines HemiSync conjectures, the concept that God is Love, but not a wrathful God,
some dualism concepts included as well an out of body experience sewing the whole thing up. I worked all day on it but I figured writing things down is also my pathway as can't think of anything I'd rather do!

also, I've got a book review I want to do regarding Monroe's biography book. it's fascinating reading.

Ian, thank you for your post. we are of one mind. I'm glad I met you.
love and god bless

In attempting to maintain consistency with the original topic of the thread per vajra, instead wallowing through another "referendum" on any particular source:

In a very general and profound way, the conscious deliberate pursuit of spirituality is practical - perhaps even the ultimate form of practicality - although not only is this counterintuitive to conventional thinking, but it may take some considerable suffering and struggle to be able to see it that way. It may be during that intervening passage prior to the big reorientation in which everything is indeed merely theoretical from the latter more authentically spiritual point of view. For many or most, suffering is a necessary theoretical grounding (or negative form of practicality?) that leads to trying something else that is much more practical in the positive sense, although some few spontaneously go directly to the spiritual orientation from the outset.

I would simply define practical spirituality as 1) choosing a particular expedient, and then 2) working with, or on it.

What constitutes "work" would be subject to examination according to various definitions and standards, and this then may enter into the question as vajra points out, of genuine legitimate teachers being further expedients of practice by virtue of the fact that they are necessarily some amount/degree/number of steps ahead of the student within the chosen path, and therefore have the capacity to address the individual requirements of students who embody varying temperaments and standards of receptivity and relative capacity. In this regard the old saying might apply concerning being ready for the teacher to appear. Preparation does lead to opportunity of all kinds and yet, opportunity presents and is very often not recognized. Therefore it is considered fruitful to always continue working, refining, evolving, remaining open and alert whatever the current circumstance, definition or standard of practice. A sincere, unremitting aspiration and self-offering through practice will yield results eventually, including making appropriate contact with sources/teachers/guides if that is proscribed within one's path. If not, then one may continue working "solo", since God/Highest-Self is certainly available that way too.


some poems by Sri Chinmoy:
Quote:

Enthusiasm has determination inside it In disguise. Determination has peace inside it In disguise. Peace has perfection inside it In disguise. No preparation, no attempt. No attempt, no progress. No progress, no perfection. No perfection, no satisfaction. Each prayer is hard work. My idle body must learn it. Each piece of work is a sincere prayer. My soulful heart already knows it.

A theoretical spirituality might be characterized by mental/intellectual curiosity, pursuit of and exposure to sources of inspiration - facts, concepts, books, scriptures, etc.; verbalizing/discussing speculations or personal preferences that may not have been experienced or practiced - - even though all of those mentioned could be a precursor/precondition to choosing and enacting some practical application, and frequently are.

The classic progression seems to be inspiration, aspiration, realisation, revelation, manifestation - with each founded upon the previous, and in the real world they all become part of a dynamic multifaceted process in which various aspects may be in one phase or another simultaneously depending on focus of attention. Inspiration seems most associated with the theoretical aspect in this discussion, because it deals with exposure to options leading towards recognition of orientation, or to continuation of progress using any means within a chosen path that as yet exists only as potential within the process but must be practiced. One of the biggest forms of inspiration is the appreciation of others' personal experience through their positive example and this is why well-intentioned sharing in different forms has the ability to kindle further positive movement in others. However, it would be a mistake to use different forms of inspiration as a vicarious substitute for one's own practical application.  

While inspiration by itself may not be practical, inspiration can lead to aspiration which is eminently practical. Aspiration is in essence practical because it is the eternal living energy vehicle one may align with that is inseparably part of and leading to realisation. It is present by invocation or not - but if present it is by its very nature practical, so if one is aspiring it will neccesarily mean a practical application. Iow's, it is what it does.


Quote:

We have to know one thing. Theory does not give us abiding satisfaction, whereas through practice we do get abiding satisfaction. If surrender is forced, then always it will be in the world of theory. But if it is spontaneous and unconditional, if it is coming cheerfully from the depths of our heart, then automatically it becomes practical. Just because someone else has surrendered to God, if you feel that you are also supposed to surrender to God, then you are mistaken. You have to wait for your hour. Today the hour has struck in his or her life; tomorrow your hour will strike. You have to wait cheerfully, devotedly and unconditionally. How do we make our surrender practical? There is a simple and, at the same time, effective way. Before we pray and meditate, if we offer our soulful gratitude to the Almighty Father, the Inner Pilot, then our surrender becomes practical. Why does it become practical? It becomes practical because inside our gratitude-light we see the Supreme's infinite Compassion. We are grateful to Him because out of millions of people He has chosen us to pray to Him, to meditate on Him, to invoke His Light, to invoke His Presence. When we develop gratitude, we expand our reality. And when we expand our reality, love blossoms petal by petal inside us and we become inseparably one with God's Will. When we are inseparably one with God's Will, our surrender becomes cheerful. Forced surrender the slave will make to the master. But in spiritual surrender we have to feel that we are surrendering to our own highest Reality. It is not to somebody else, a third person, but to our own highest Reality. Right now we feel that our self is a tiny drop. Why? Because we have separated our existence from the mighty ocean. As long as we maintain our sense of separativity, we will not dare to enter into the ocean. If we take the theoretical approach and feel that the ocean in front of us will always remain vast, then we will always remain the drop. But when we are very practical, we just dive and throw our existence into the ocean and become one with it. Then, on the strength of our feeling of oneness, we enter into the ocean and lose our little, limited individuality and personality and become the infinite ocean itself. - Sri Chinmoy

Certainly what would not be practical and could even be counter productive would be to apply energy to any means or expedient that has specifically not been chosen, i.e., rejected. That strategy might require billions of lives to work out, as it involves the separative "objective" focus on numerous, even infinite individual possibilities that are potentially available but have been consciously, deliberately, subjectively rejected as being not serviceable - - useless for personal practice - - and the obvious consequence of that strategy being a diversion from what has been chosen in the positive sense, assuming some positive choice has been actually made. If a choice has not been made, then the continued exploration and evaluation of possible choices with a view towards rejecting what is not subjectively serviceable would necessarily fall into the area of either theoretical spirituality, non-committment, focusing on the negative or cynicism. Also, in the spirit of oneness, any unconditionally loving acceptance of another's path/practice as valid choice for them, even if rejected by oneself, would be a demonstration of practical spirituality.


- u


ps - Alysia, why don't you post a link to the blog you mentioned. I am sure there are people here who would like to read it, myself included

You don't have to 'believe' anyone just leave your mind open and skeptical then ask for logical proof or preferably prove it for yourself. Anything else is heresy.

I do find it interesting  that the Path leads inward regardless of version. This is interesting to me that if it is a process of spiritual involution then the whole idea of institutional religion (what I would call "practical spirituality") is unnecessary.

Regardless of what is happening, the process of spiritual involution goes on. I confess I am a student of ACIM, but it does say, in the last owrds of the Manual

"Forget these words. Forget this Course, and come with wholy empty hands unto your God."

Joseph Campbell always called these beliefs and myths the expanations of our intellects of things which cannot not be explained, a sort of cultural snapshot of belief frozen in time.... and every culture has had them. Through them all, however, our spiritual involution has persisted. I am suggesting this is because our quest for this supercedes our puny intellectual constructs.

But, then, now, which is theoretical and which is practical?

Thomas

tgecks wrote on Oct 5^th, 2008 at 9:32am:

Regardless of what is happening, the process of spiritual involution goes on. "Forget these words. Forget this Course, and come with wholy empty hands unto your God." But, then, now, which is theoretical and which is practical? Thomas

A thought for Today:
There is seemingly so little love shared in this world, it is not surprising that we ask, "Where have all the lovers gone?" Since love is the most vital energy for good that is within our power to utilize, it is puzzling why we so seldom do so. Love is just a useless, abstract idea until we put it into action...Unless we are always actively living in love, we are not utilizing the greatest gift we have been given and which we, in turn, have to offer.
~Leo Buscaglia

:-[   :(

Poem by Ernest Dowson-

They are not long, the weeping and the laughter,
Love and desire and hate;
I think they have no portion in us after
We pass the gate.

They are not long, the days of wine and roses:
Out of a misty dream
Our path emerges for a while, then closes
Within a dream

Thomas brings up some really good points, among them 2  that deal with common pitfalls of spiritual aspirants - one by way of comment and the other by way of a question. We seem to end up discussing these two issues here quite frequently and my guess is that it is because the people who come to this site are active, conscious seekers or else people waking up to those possibilities, making these issues prominent or essential.

These are: 1) the issue of what is practical?, and
               2) the issue of mistaking or getting stuck in an expedient as the goal itself  (ACIM: "forget these words...").  

In addressing the first - on the issue of what is practical I would propose that:
What is practical is that which serves as an expedient or means for the fulfillment of any intention. It doesn't even have to be a "spiritual" intention, as the definition seems to fit in any case.

The greater, more direct, more comprehensive the fulfillment of the intention, the more efficacious and practical the expedient. Note that paradoxically, "more direct" in the spiritual sense may actually not be so linear, lol. Also the issue of some type of guidance being part of what defines practicality may be pertinent, as we know that the trial and error method is in most cases one of the least efficient compared to adapting individual specific needs to what is already generally known - e.g,  If one wanted to climb the tallest mountain on Earth, one could wander aimlessly all over for a lifetime hoping to stumble on Mt.Everest (even if recognized) then attempt a likely disastrous ascent. Or - one could research and consult maps, authentic accounts, guide books, organize or join an expedition, hire a guide, sherpas, etc. and approach it in a more deliberately inter-dependent way - accessing the huge reserve of practical knowledge and wisdom embodied by many people - the results of those who through their own committment of life energy, have acquired valuable actual experience with some, or every aspect of the intended purpose.

In the most broad sense all life experience is "practical" because life is by nature taking place in the physical with its necessary laws of action and reaction, vibration and attraction, attitude and consequence, etc.. However due to a cosmic Ignorance in which we are involved, we are not fully (even partially?) aware of our Divinity, our Identity, and our oneness with God/Source and therefore "suffer" and act in confused ways leading to unfortunate realities both individually and collectively, including and perhaps especially as Thomas says due to our puny intellects, which is a part of the problem. Fortunately we have other options.

While there are practical considerations within the operational realities of Earth life, the results we find are not satisfying, nor do the obscure even if apparently intrinsic opportunities of life present themselves in a way making it obvious what is necessary to break the endless cycles of ignorantly intentioned living with the attendant and necessary painful conclusions - iow's not ultimately very practical.

For most people, even those we would consider "awakened" to the potential - the (for some radical) notion that we are essentially divine, can ascend to Godhood, become God-realized, etc. is only a possibility, a theory or an intellectual concept - until through some expedient or practice it becomes a fulfilled conscious Reality. It is in the reorientation that allows for a conscious, deliberate acceleration of that potential fulfillment - now theoretical and held in place by faith that provides the impetus for any ongoing practice - where practicality takes on a deeper and more refined purpose leading towards that full realization, in the fully practical sense, in the physical.

I do not happen to believe that institutional religion is the representation of "practical spirituality", at least exclusively that is. Yes, religion is an expedient and a means for certain intentions leading towards some spiritual goals, for instance - the necessity for organized communion as reinforcement to individual search, the delineating and adherance to certain basic moral principles, a rudimentary understanding of some type of spiritual "cosmology", etc. I think that at one time in human development it may have been in the forefront of what may be considered practical because of course it is - for its intended purposes. However, there are now large numbers of people for whom the structure and purpose religion as we know it serves intentions that while being practical for some needs, do not address a fuller range of potential now recognized by many who are awakening to greater possibility and are searching for new expedients, and so now that set of applied principles of religion may appear to be limiting to many. I would suggest that there is a continuum of practicality based on the successive transcendance of limitation as intention evolves to meet newer recognized potentials and possibilities of the involved soul. I think beyond this, a good discussion might be had on the intrinsic differences between religion and spirituality, but maybe in another thread.
   
What is theoretical would be what is not serviceable as a means or expedient for the intended purpose, or an intention that is not followed with some enacted practice.
For instance as in the discussion above about religion, it might be true and is for many, that given the present shortcomings of religion to practically address newer recognized potentials, people may be actively searching for new ways/means/expedients to become the fulfilling practices of newly discovered intentions. Unless and until these expedients are identified, formulated and enacted, these new intentions will remain theoretical. The means of fulfilling well experienced and previously transcended/mastered intentions, by definition will not suffice.

As one proceeds, one determines what serves and is a successful expedient and what is not, and makes alterations by free will accordingly.
It is this process of alignment between intention and means, held together and furthered by faith in positive outcome which is at the core of what is practical. This could also be called aspiration, which is the connecting thread, life-line, inner breath that provides a direct link to that ascending definition of "practicality" - always providing appropriate means, clearing the path, as each step embodies a fragment of the destination.

There is also a subsidiary discussion available on the appearance in history of certain human beings, who's presence figured prominently and uniquely in serving as a focus for major reorientation of whole cultures or in some cases the entire world regarding urgently needed new intentions and expedients - again, probably for another thread.

In the case of what would be "spiritually" practical, it seems that the issue of general orientation is paramount regardless of the specific means or expedient chosen, since many paths lead to what is generally considered the same goal. This brings up the second issue, that of mistaking the form of expedient for the goal itself. Again, using the example of religion, it can be seen that people can get stuck within ritual, practice, structure - form, that does not serve an evolving purpose and so when that happens it is appropriate to seek new forms/ways/means/expedients/solutions that align with newer intentions and recognized new possibilities.

There are 2 cases when this does not happen: When new possibilities are not recognized, there is stasis, an adherance/attachment to outer form, denial of further potential. Eventually this will lead to crystallization, stagnation, dissatisfaction, frustration - iow's crisis. This is the painful difficult way, because it deals with the consequences of attachment and the inevitable destruction of form that is necessary to move on to new forms/means that serve authentic inner necessity, and not the other way around (as in, "God made the sabbath for man", etc.).

The other way is when new intentions are formulated resulting from recognition of new possibilities, dissatisfaction with old useless forms, but as yet - no replacement has been found for the obsolete expedient. Once again, regarding religion, there are many people in total limbo - completely dissatisfied with the old structure - bored, unfulfilled, even stifled - but they do not know where to turn. I believe this is one reason why people come to this site, among many other explorations available as precursors to establishing a practice - seeking answers to questions that the old forms do not answer for whatever reason, or cannot answer because of a fundamental incapacity to do so.


Further on mistaking means for goal -
There is a problem when individual aspirants, or institutions for that matter, become attached to one specific form of expedient (their own) and begin to view this as the only practical means to the general "goal" and then alter their behavior to reflect this attitude by seeing their way as exclusive and superior, not allowing for the different other individual practical applications, solutions and acheivements, which are not as obvious in their practicality because they have not been personally chosen and used. Ironically, it turns out that this attitude of exclusivity is not practical, since it is inherently opposed to oneness (and acceptance of diversity), a presumed goal of any authentic spiritual quest. This is a common difficulty of seeking to be overcome and often appears regardless of specific path.

- u

Quote Vajra:

Quote:

Self work involves continuous self study and evaluation of our actions and motives to gain insight, and great bravery ('warriorship') to apply in life what seems from teaching to make sense, but goes against our conditioning.

It seems to me that the self-work of us all is to become the essence of love and compassion. It doesn’t matter which path(s) or who the teacher(s) may be. If greater understanding is gained through living and experiencing a life that leads toward greater love and compassion then that person is accomplishing the work he or she set out to accomplish.

Self-work is not an easy process because it requires brutal honesty with oneself and the determination to be persistent with intent and focus. In my view whenever we feel resistance arising within us, this resistance is actually telling us that a choice exists. We can either choose fear/ego/superiority, which leads to feelings of separation/isolation, or we can choose love/compassion/understanding, which leads to feelings of oneness with all of reality.

If our growth is to be effective, then it is very often not a path of the least resistance. If we do not know suffering and understand the cause of suffering, how are we to discover what self improvement is? What divinity is? What love is? Each of us has individual wants, needs, desires, feelings and attitudes and we use our intellect to justify them. This is the ego at work identifying with objects and form.

We are not form, we are consciousness and when consciousness acts a split occurs. In fact, it may be the very purpose of consciousness to create this split because it is the conscious recognition between the self and the other or what provides us the means of knowledge. We call this split duality. Perhaps the only way to escape duality is to stop creating/believing in form. Is this possible in a material world? I don’t know, but I think I get what Don is saying when he discusses duality/oneness issues.

Kathy  

PS to Ultra: Why don’t you start those threads you mentioned. Good posts btw! I like the quotes from Sri Chinmoy. Thanks!

:) Thank you very much for your inputs guys, much appreciated and right on.

Duality and path are such difficult topics to treat using simple language - like much else spiritual we seem to end up circling and describing aspects of something that's in the end hard to capture.

I suppose non duality for me is at the basic level the realisation that all is one. That all beings at the level of this physical existence are in truth not separate and consequently that it's in our interest to treat them with love and consideration, and that in the higher and extra normal sense that this whole reality and the beings within it is actually the result of the apparent division and projection of aspects of the only mind there is outwards - that there is only one mind that contains all.

It relates to path (practical and theoretical) in that for example Buddhism at the level of basic teaching intellectually or theoretically shows how all is interdependent, and all is driven by cause and consequence. e.g. we need say bread to live, but you can't have wheat for the loaf you eat without rain, land, soil, fertilisers, weather, the earth, the universe, the cosmos and so on - all are interdependent, from the most microscopic to the grossest level. Ditto for anything else we care to mention.

That however is initially only a theoretical understanding. We may intellectually espouse the view, but we don't necessary intuitively know or experience it.

Meditation, contemplation and the varieties of extra normal experience that spiritual work/practice of this sort may produce can lead to mind states where these sorts of realities are directly experienced. For example a meditator may find his/her awareness transferring to locate in say a tree. Or may experience such a rise in empathy/loving kindness that he can no longer mistreat another. Or while journeying in the afterlife realms we may communicate at such a deep level with other non physical being that we become convinced that life exists beyond the physical. The highly realised may experience realities entirely beyond space time, and associated much higher knowings, for example an overwhelming experience of the loving nature of God or higher mind.

This, and the work needed to train the mind to the point where we open to these sorts of realities and consequently come to know them experientially is what I mean by practical spirituality. You could actually call it 'real' spirituality I guess.

That's not to say that the intellect (theoretical spirituality) does not have a part to play in our development - it's essential to helping us to start thinking in a way that minimises the fear and obscuration that blocks our opening and seeing of higher realities and truths.

But no matter how subtle it becomes it's no substitute for experience, for direct knowing. The former is just a thought, the latter produces direct (right and higher/deeper brain/3rd eye/extra sensory) knowing and greatly increased intuition into higher truths.

Theoretical spirituality is also often a trap. The path entails the continuous evolution of our view, and of the beliefs that support it. Trouble is that ego in its unceasing search for security often gets us hung up on a specific set of beliefs, which we may then defend as though our life/'eternal salvation' depended on it. Despite the fact that concepts/thoughts can only at best approximate to reality, but very often bear no relationship to it at all. e.g. we're routinely conditioned to think of a world where loving behaviours minimise suffering and maximise happiness as actually requiring dog eat dog behaviours.

Fundamentalist tinged orthodox religion goes even further, it turns a set of beliefs into dogma, and then uses these and expertise in them as a means of suppressing thought and securing its power. Many set themselves up as experts, and use their knowledge to control others.

Spiritual materialism is a term used to describe this phenomenon of making beliefs sacred and unchangeable for what's perceived (often  unconsciously) as personal advantage. (albeit often very subtly as in an unconscious but feel good producing thought that 'I'm holier than thou', the ego becomes subtler as we progress along the path)

The journey from rules for living in the external world, to intellectual/theoretical understanding to a seamless non dual awareness of the inseparability of external and internal realities is in effect the journey inwards Thomas talked of, the spiritual path in a sense.

As Ultra said it takes us from a conventional subject/object external reality via the inkling there may be more to it than that to the knowledge that all is One, and that as Kathy said Love is ALL.

This is not some intellectual overview, this is the changing of mind over time so that we literally become something else. As Cathy said it's no easy journey, it can entail major physical as well as mind/behaviour  based consequences but it increasingly delivers joy. (wish I was there)

We're all at differing points on this path/continuum. Depending on where  we need different teachings (the Eastern traditions have bodies of teachings at the levels of rules for living, theoretical explanations as to the deeper nature of reality, and practical techniques for the experiential realisation of these and higher realities), and will hold differing views as to the nature of the reality we inhabit and what matters within it.

This seeing of spiritual matters from differing points on the path is often the basis of the arguments that arise between those holding differing views of matters spiritual, their 'views' are literally different....

PS Should have said that there's a view that we all find our way along this path over many lifetimes. The role of a capable spiritual teacher and appropriate spiritual work as Ultra sais is that it hopefully speeds our progress.

varja

Here are the qualities that I see that would make up a decent human being?

Principal 1: Non -violence (The Highest Ethic0

Principle 2: Kindness.

Principle 3: Humility

Principle 3: Integrity

Principle 4: Selfless Love

Principal 5: Compassion

Principle 4: Originality (Creativity)

Take Care

Alan

Rondelle:

I don't know Greg Mackie, but I figured on my own that Gary Renard is a fraud. Some people know that the new age supermarket is a cash cow, and Gary Renard took advantage of it.  He used ACIM to this end. He was asked during an interview if any recording of the conversations were made. He replied that the beings he supposedly talked to wouldn't allow this because people would just say that actors played the role.  He said he secretly recorded the conversations in order to use them while writing the book, and then threw them a way.

Translation, if one purposely created a hoax and involved actors, one would 1) have to find people who would agree to be a part of a hoax; 2) find people who could act well enough so they seemed like light beings and not people who were reading a script; 3) find people who could fake accents from the days the people Renard supposedly spoke to came from, a hard thing to accomplish, since only a linguistic expert would have an idea of how people from such a time period spoke; 4) pay these people some of the proceeds from the book; 5) hope that none of them tells the truth; and 6) hope that nobody recognizes these people. Even if you believed that nobody would believe you, would you throw the tapes away?

People like Gary Renard take advantage of people who won't question, even though they say that they do.


rondele wrote on Oct 4^th, 2008 at 4:58pm:

Albert- Interesting that you would mention Gary Renard, author of Disappearance of the Universe. Renard is characterized as a fraud by none other than Greg Mackie who is with Circle of Atonement, which just happens to be the major ACIM website!! See http://www.circleofa.org/articles/Entities.php

Vajra:

I think it's fine you started such a thread, but then when I saw that right from the start you and Alysia stated things which suggest that ACIM is the way, I just couldn't keep mum this time, even though I do so at other times. Notice that I didn't respond to Alysia's ACIM thread on another part of this forum.

Alysia:

William Tetford was a big part of the course, and it does matter how Helen Schuchman ended up in a dark and angry depressed state at the end of her life. If the spirit of Christ channeled himself to a person for a number of years, would this person end up in the state of mind Helen ended up in?  Would Christ choose to have teachings channeled through a person who was closely associated with a man who was the head of a CIA mind control project? Is CIA mind control a loving thing?

Kathy:

I don't agree with your contention that it doesn't matter what the source of teachings are.  False sources of information are able to thrive, partly because people believe it is loving to not say anything against such sources. Is it really loving to just sit by and not say anything when you know that sources are intentionally misleading people? Is it possible for people to see that they can be honest about false sources of information and loving at the same time?

To all:

Some people on this forum believe that in order for this World to spiritually progress, it needs to move beyond fundamentalist religions. Fundamentalist religions aren't the only sources of information that lead people astray. So do the many false gurus and false new age sources that exist. As long people continue to allow such sources to thrive, they will continue to mislead people.

Imagine how it looks to light beings who abide in the spirit World. My guess is that they would like this World to spiritually evolve.  They also probably understand that false sources of information get in the way. If this is so, isn't it reasonable to conclude that they hope that some people will be more proactive when it comes to doing something about false sources of information, rather than standing by with the thought that one is being loving when one says nothing?

Albert,

If you are to be brutally honest there is not a single source that is without falsity. All truth is subjective and dependent upon the observer. In fact just making an observation changes whatever is being observed. Most people see what they expect to see. This is how we all limit ourselves and the possibilities/potentialities.

Every time someone mentions one of your “pet peeves” you start sounding off like a noisy gong that reminds me of the mud-slinging politicians plastered all over television. Personally I’m growing tired of it and I believe Bruce has warned you about this previously.

You may think that you are acting in a loving manner, but it sure looks to me like you are using your intellect to defend your egotistical and superior attitudes when in fact you take someone’s thread entirely off topic as Vajra pointed out to you. “Bloody hell” is right on! Not a single post of yours was in line with the subject of “Practical VS Theoretical Spirituality.”

There’s a time and a place. If you want to speak out against ACIM, false gurus or whatever then start your own website or at the very least do it on your own threads. Just remember to stay in touch with Bruce’s posting guidelines, particularly the following two:

It is a violation subject to banning to post any message that is:
“An attack upon the beliefs of individuals or groups”
”A personal attack on another member or public figure”

Kathy

Kathy:

It is true that none of us get it completely right, but clearly there is a big difference between information that comes from a source that makes an honest attempt to share what it has learned, and a source that is fraudulent.  

Regarding my responses not being on topic, I believe it is obvious why they weren't on topic. Plus going off topic is something that happens in human conversation all of the time.

If you don't want to see my reasons for writing the posts I write, this is your choice.  I feel quite good about my reasons for writing them.

Regarding what you refer to as my "intellectually superior attitude" (paraphrased), is there something wrong with there being people in this World who through trial and error have found that many false sources of information exist, and try to let other people know about what they have found not because they feel that they are superior, but because they truly want to help and choose to do so even though people throw eggs at them?

If you want to refer to my life lessons as pet peeves that is your choice. It is up to me to decide if I'm holding onto any hostility.

Please don't kill the messenger. It isn't my fault so many false sources exist.

Hi Albert. I think that we need to agree to differ on sources, on the basis that realistically there isn't much point exchanging posts which only ever revisit the same territory every time one or other is mentioned.

Put it this way - I'm not aware of anybody here claiming to express more than a personal view. We each in the end must make our own mind up. In my own case my view seems to keep on evolving (that's if I can even meaningfully express it) so I can't even assign any great certainty to what I write.   :) OK?

Hi Alan. Nice list. Pardon my delay in coming back. Your principles are I guess another way of looking at the nature of the spiritual path. They very nicely bring out the issue of the difference between the essentially internal process of becoming, and external behaviours; also the distinction between practical and theoretical spirituality.

The first few can be simulated by intellectual (theoretical) means, and by behaving in accordance with what we think they look like. So we find people doing this in life - for ego/selfish reasons simulating humility or whatever. But the latter ones (creativity, compassion, selfless love) unconsciously emerge from a deeper place or knowing (the heart?), and are intuitive/empathetic responses/abilities which reflect the nature of the person/being rather than intellectual ones.

The latter can be cultivated, but it seems only through spiritual work and life experience. (practical spirituality) They are emergent, and essentially cannot be intellectually simulated.

Buddhist teaching is big on the perfections. (or paramitas) Six or ten are listed depending on the school and level of teaching - generosity, morality, patience, energy, meditation, wisdom, skillful means, spiritual resolution, spiritual power and knowledge/knowing. All apply in the context of the spiritual life. e.g. knowledge/knowing means not just theoretical knowledge, but also a deeper knowing of transcendential or extra normal realities.

They too move from in a sense theoretical or behavioural rules to emergent or inherent qualities of being in the last five - the idea being you only truly realise them all with enlightenment.

As is typical the whole body of thought has been worked out to the finest imaginable level of detail - monastic Buddhism has this tendency to become theoretically very heavy duty, to the point where it can when transmitted to the West with it's intellectual emphasis drown out the practical side. ( ;) what you get when you have a monastery full of thousands of monks focused on refining their thought. Zen is on the other hand essentially a practice only, almost theory free variety of Buddhism) Try Googling Six Perfections, Ten Perfections, Paramitas and the like if it's of interest. Here's a shortish description: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P%C4%81ramit%C4%81

Well in many ways ACIM along with its permutations (ie Gary Renard, Donald Walsch), is not really relevant to afterlife knowledge to begin with, so in that respect discussions about them really belong in the Off Topic section.

Why? Mainly because there is nothing in these books that describes the afterlife.  None of these books add to the data base of afterlife knowledge.  Do any of them tell us what it's like on the other side?  What awaits us when we die?  Strangely enough, they don't.

Think about it.  Think how little...if any!....information there is on this board or any other for that matter as to specific information describing what life is like after we die.  And isn't that what most of us really want?

Personally I don't accept ACIM and the several copy-cat authors who have sought to gain financially from it.  But again, that's neither here nor there because none of these materials adds one iota as to what the afterlife is like.

Is it possible that the authors don't really know?  Because if they did, why wouldn't they tell us?

R

Rondelle:

I see your point, but to be fair, I'm the person who really got the ACIM conversation going.

Rondelle said: Is it possible that the authors don't really know?  Because if they did, why wouldn't they tell us?
___

I agree. an experience is needed. nobody really knows for sure until an experience of death occurs for them, and even popular NDE's are colored by the belief system and expectations of the experiencer, but the person who has the experience, knows more than they did before they had the NDE, yet  the experience is not sharable in physical communication means, as language itself is insufficient.

it's like Kathy said, this is science, that observing something, actually that something changes with the observer observing it. change is absolute, even within religious terms and language.

Just read Bruce's comment to JustineS. to further this line of thought: Justine does not want to live forever. Bruce explained very well that in 5 years, she may change her mind, as we change our minds, that is what growing, learning is about. he said more and he talks much better than I about these things.

thank you Kathy for mentioning the guidelines. attack on another's belief system just continues to promote more attack. i don't see the point.

R, you are acting against the guidelines here, and also in off topics with this pet peeve you have. if you want to further your attacks I think off topics is a good place for you to do so. however, I'm finished with the subject myself. I am excruciatingly bored with this coming up so much.

Vajra

I am interested in your original post though perhaps not on the level you mean.

Though I did relate to that part about teacher as personal trainer  (I think that is what a guru really is...) because I have often thought as I watched my son go through public education, that it would make such a difference if each and every child could have a personal trainer for, say, English composition.

Now my idea of practical spirituality has changed over time. I used to think it revolved around trying to be Christlike (this is going back to my childhood in the Bible Belt before the Age of the MegaChurches) and acting like Jesus, and "Jesus went about doing good." You say the words and you try to turn them into flesh, or at least actions of the flesh. Actually that's not a BAD thing to do, unless you start trying to force your "good" on people who don't want it. And I recall Ram Dass coming back from India or wherever and talking about the Path of Service ..isn't that the same thing? I think the idea is that service to others is one of the paths to Enlightenment/transcendent spirituality.

Actually maybe it is important to remember that there can be many paths to the same place. They just all look so different. So I outgrew this frontier protestant appraoch, partly because I always wanted to be an intellectual, because I think all the time. I'm the queen of mind-brain chatter. Actually as I'm sitting here, I'm realizing that I don't really have a picture for what theoretical spirituality is. I guess I think what that is, is all the mind-brain chatter we use to talk about spirituality rather than live it. Can there be such a thing as Theory of Spirituality? I'll have to think on this more.

But what I'm getting to is, I caught the title 'practical spirituality' and immediately what I thought of was something I posted elsewhere on the board, something I want to learn, and that is my current idea of a manifestation of practical spirituality. I want to learb to bend spoons (or forks). I still haven't been successful. But that is my idea for now.

Hi Lucy, you may have some competition on the mind/brain chatter front!  :)

What I meant by theoretical spirituality is pretty much what you said - thinking and learned debate as a substitute for practical work - whether on the self, or in the external sense. Especially when it leads to a mistaken sense of accomplishment.

That's not to say that thought and a view on what we should be doing in either respect is not important - it's just that it can as above be such a self justifying trap, and become such a barrier to personal transformation and development.

I guess the sort of overly zealous frontier protestantism you describe is in terms of the spiritual path a sort of naive do-goodery based off an intellectual and fairly simplistic view of 'good'. As such it's (while practical action is hugely important) perhaps at the 'beginner' end of spirituality.

A deeper understanding of the nature of things, and much more important the empathy and knowing/wisdom that arise following life experience and internal self work (especially meditation) seem to lead on in to a much more intuitive, less clumsy and further seeing approach to living through love. A surer and subtler touch so to speak.

Buddhism would say that as a result of meditation and going inwards (the dimension of practical spirituality that delivers real personal transformation - and all else follows automatically from this) we reconnect with our natural knowing and empathy/compassion, and that these with experience increasingly enable us to manifest true wisdom and love/compassion  by 'skillful means'.

The interesting bit is that the actions of a highly realised person may appear to somebody operating at the more simplistic and rule based level to be wrong - when instead they are the result of a deeper seeing.

The range of ways we receive insight and open as we go inwards (or just through life experience) is as you say mind bogglingly varied -  study, meditation, contemplation and the like seem to be important tools, but heaven knows what the personal path will be. (it can perhaps be described at the general level, but that's not much help on a day to day basis)

This I guess is as you say where a teacher who can read your situation and see past your blind spots comes in, or failing that a self work manual and a lot of self enquiry.

:) When you reach the point where you can bend the forks I guess that would certainly mean you've dropped any limiting beliefs you had about the nature of the physical reality, and are operating well beyond it. That would suggest progress, but Buddhism would say that it's a catch 22 problem - if you get hung up at all on needing to achieve the objective then by definition you are bound by ego and it's belief systems which will prevent it. Also that the pursuit of 'powers' can as a result of so to speak 'taking the eye off the spiritual ball' lead to problems or block progress - it implies the ego is back in the driving seat.

My own experience has been that meditation and so on produced slow but big changes when seen over the years, although illness and life crises have been important openers too.

It seems too that not only are our paths highly varied, so too are the timescales. Some seem to progress very rapidly, others it's said take many many lifetimes. It seems that the trick is to simply work day by day, that as above to get all hung up and objective driven is likewise to block progress.

Just some personal and borrowed views.....

thanks to Kathy, Lucy and Ian/Vajra getting the thread's purpose back on track as I'm back inspired to continue off your leading thoughts.

I'm not bored anymore in other words..lol..due to your input.

Lucy, you're mentioning spoon bending and Ian's response reminds me of when I was seeing if I could win the lotto, if I had that power to see the numbers. what happened is I did see 4 out of the 6 numbers; from working at it every day. on a spiritual level, that I had this power scared me so bad, I gave up the effort and decided to go get some money by going and getting an actual job. lol. seemed more spiritual, whatever!

so I still don't think it's wrong to try and bend a spoon, as did that too once and failed miserably. I think though, people who levitate, bend spoons, win lotto consistently (there are people who consistently win the lotto and it's more than luck) I think they are working in psychic areas as opposed to purely spiritual areas, as for the life of me, I can't figure out if I did learn to levitate, what good that does for the rest of the curls out there, if I couldn't show them how to do it too; and I'm sure levitators cannot explain it to us either. but I'd say to them, by all means, demonstrate the power of the mind, just don't make me pay money for to see! I'm tight.

Ian to my pov is consistent with what he gives us, and I appreciate it. basically he promotes meditation as a transformation tool and now he has added that getting experience here in ELS goes hand in hand with meditation, self discovery and differentiating between psychic gifts and true spirituality. there is a fine line between gifted psychically, and being wrongly proud of that gift, which can cause not PUL experiences, but ego reinforcement and subsequent lumps on the old noggin. bad ego! bad! lol.
Meditation takes care of the over exuberant ego. as a matter of fact some of you plunge me into an altered state, some of the things you share, which seem to go unnoticed by the general clientele.

Just want you to know I notice your love.

the same, Ian, my experience also showed me the slow changes, but which were significant changes..so life in that sense is certainly worth living even with slow changes towards ..whatever we are going towards, I'll say, as I heard it said so many different places, that enlightenment, to go towards our full potential in that respect, I would agree with my heart, and those sources where I feel at one with what I'm picking up, when a person is the more consistently expressing Love, that it is the highest we can achieve.

nothing else satisfies, quite as well, as feeling love.

and these are my personal and like Ian says, borrowed views, but don't be so humble Ian, you're doing fine!
I like the way Ian says one day at a time, it's one of my favorite tunes to signify living in the now moment, as really guys, what else is there, but the now moment?

tomorrow is promised to no one.

hugs