Would it be fair to assume that most ,if not all religions are in the game of entrapping souls to their areas of the BST's. If you believe in say.. Christianity, then if your good enough to their standards, you go to their heaven. Or there is the Islamic belief that if you are martyred you go to their heaven area. (Of course if you kill some Americans the big guy throws in a few virgins to ease the transition.) Perhaps it time for truths....whatever they are.(?) Because the bottom line is that there is a lot of people being fed a lot of crap and their swallowing most of it up. Its been going on for far to long and when you do drop that body of yours (or me dropping mine) your most likely going to be surprised. The real danger as far as I can see is that there are far to many people believing in religious bunk and not in themselves and in love. Why are these people missing the fact that these religious centers, over there, are really Hells and not the Heaven that they are seeking. Now you might think that I am not a believer in God. This is simply not the case. I strongly believe. Just not in an entrapping God who yearns for the ownership of souls. The God I believe in is a loving God who values freedom. My freedom to choose. My freedom to make mistakes. My freedom to make choices. My freedom to believe or not to. All without punishment.  Thoughts?
Joe
PS: Is it starting to get warm in here? 

I doubt that people who believe in a particular religion in a rigid way believe in belief systems, therefore, they aren't thinking of entrapping people in their belief system. Rather, they believe there is their kind of heaven, perhaps some sort of purgatory realm, and perhaps some sort of hell.

It's a good thing that we'll all have suprises when we go to the spirit World in varying degrees, because we often aren't very good at figuring things out while here.

I believe a day will come when this World will have access to the spirit World to an extent, where it won't be necessary to have the various belief systems we have down here. Instead it'll be about living according to love, without all the dogma.

I have to add, part of the process of the human race progressing to the point where it will no longer be necessary to be involved with dogmatic belief systems, is getting to the point where we can discuss varying beliefs, without people becoming overly sensistive about it. When we can't do so, we hinder the growth process.

If one thinks about it, the belief systems that exist today exist, because people were allowed to share their ideas. Why can't people share ideas that differ? Because they might step on somebody's toes? Didn't the people who started the belief systems that exist today, step on somebody's toes when they started such belief systems? Perhaps they're still stepping on people's toes today in various ways.

When we point our fingers at others, we really point them at ourselves....at least, that's how I see it.

I have to ask myself, if I want to be a "helper" of any kind, what is the first thing to notice about a situation?

1) Okay, I have identified myself as a helper.

What is the second thing?

2) Does this person really need help? I know I have made an initial assessment, that there is a need here.

What is the third thing?

3) Am I the person to do this thing? I know I am a helper, but am I going to provide what this person needs? Is there anyone here who might be even more effective than me?

What is the fourth thing?

4) How can I do this thing, if I am the one to do it, without doing more harm, if I am actually seeing this thing clearly?

What is the fifth thing?

Well, maybe it's time. What is the indicator that I am the one to do this thing? Just because I am here? All I have is me. My resources. The resources given me as I make my way through this life.

I'll just give it a try. Surely there are invisible helpers here, even if I can't see them.
-------------------------

Isn't this the way we do it?

-------------------------

So, what were the results? Was there a healing? Was the presentation effective? If I am a helper, I will definitely want to look at the results. Am I effective? How do I judge that? How do we judge the "quality" of the interaction? How do we judge the "quality" of the intention, the action, the outcome?

Maybe I'll do better next time.

Don't we say that a lot? Maybe I'll do even better next time. Then, let it go.

I think that many well-intentioned people are simply very vigilant, and sometimes overly so at times. It doesn't really confine itself to religion or any particular subject. Not that I can tell.

What is "too much" in one situation may be "just right" in another.

But kindness....yes, we can never have too much of that.
Or laughter.
Or forgiveness.
Or understanding.
Or love.
Or freedom.

Certainly, we were given voices for a reason, and we can even shout if we need to do so.

We can shout or we can whisper. Are our words effective? Perhaps many of us in this world don't actually look at that very often. In a busy, information-filled world it is sometimes difficult to know where to shoot that "love arrow" so that it will hit the mark.

Practice, practice.         love, blink

Blink:

I can see your points, but sometimes people don't take the action they need to take during their life, because they are overly concerned about making a mistake. People who accomplish things are often people who are willing to take chances.

I remember one day I was putting up posters for the group/cult I used to belong to. I asked the owner of a restaurant if I could put up a poster. He said that he knew about my guru and his supposed enlightened brother, and wouldn't let me put up a poster.  At the time I believed this man was really egotistical. Eventually, I found out that he was correct, and if I saw him again, I'd thank him for being honest with me.

I left the above group because of doubts, and figured that some day I might return. About a year after I left the group a friend from the group called me. He let me know about a bunch of negative things that were going on within the group. I knew that I could trust this friend because he was an honest and loving person. I'm thankful that he took the "chance" to talk to me, because he helped me see things more clearly. Shortly after speaking to this friend I spoke to a few other people who had left my former group at the same time, and they were able to confirm what my friend said. A bunch of people left this group at the same time. Partly because people were loving enough to share what they learned with others. I found that there are former members of other groups/cults who are willing to do the same. They aren't interested in appearing loving by never saying anything negative about anything. They took action according to what was needed.

Everything is a part of the process, including the part where people who left cults try to warn others.

Joe said,
Quote:

Would it be fair to assume that most ,if not all religions are in the game of entrapping souls to their areas of the BST's. If you believe in say.. Christianity, then if your good enough to their standards, you go to their heaven. Or there is the Islamic belief that if you are martyred you go to their heaven area. (Of course if you kill some Americans the big guy throws in a few virgins to ease the transition.) Perhaps it time for truths....whatever they are.(?) Because the bottom line is that there is a lot of people being fed a lot of crap and their swallowing most of it up. Its been going on for far to long and when you do drop that body of yours (or me dropping mine) your most likely going to be surprised. The real danger as far as I can see is that there are far to many people believing in religious bunk and not in themselves and in love. Why are these people missing the fact that these religious centers, over there, are really Hell and not some Heaven that they are seeking.Thoughts? Joe PS: Is it starting to get warm in here?

Hi Joe,

It is the "catch-22" of the physical.
While here, we must use the finite in order to percieve/identify the infinite.
There are varying "programs" (or games as you say) all using different approaches to this activity that are all manifestations of human and divine co-creation.

People will be attracted to any "program" according to their specific requirements, receptivity and capacity. Religion is therefore not an evil conspiracy, but simply that which was once, or still is for many, the best "program" or solution for human progress at some point in the general evolution according to the demands of collective and/or individual need. I no longer use training wheels on my bike for instance, but that does not mean that they are "crap" for others who need them to learn how to ride a bike. People give up old useless ideas when they are ready to, and the process that leads to this can't be forced, nor does it need to be criticized because others have already moved on. If the use of training wheels means not being able to go as fast (including stuck in BST's), eventually this will be discovered and dealt with when there is a necessity to do so.

This activity when successful, is the movement of consciousness in transcending form, while at the same time using it (form) to do so. Progress is characterized as the increasingly continuous enactment of this activity. People, as a consequence of being immersed in form,  begin to mistake the form that is used for the activity, for the movement itself, and get "stuck". This "getting stuck" can even happen within the highest levels of attainment in ways commensurate with those levels.

The soul as individual portion of the undifferentiated divine has more or less ultimate responsibility for the progress of its 'charge' and will in due course send "it" (the being) on its way to "where" it needs to go, to give it the experiences it needs to have to accomplish this activity. This is in the very nature of the soul as it is always permanently aware of its true Identity regardless of temporary form, and wants to complete the full identification through all the parts of the being (out of oneness) - that are not Aware because presently identified with form, including as presented by the use of a religion leading to BST's for instance.

"Those people" may not as you say, think of those regions as being hell but then again we do not think of Earth as being stuck in hell either.  By some definitions, a "hell" is any "region" where beings are not 100% identified with God. Afterall, what is it that is "entrapping" us anywhere? The soul is patient and allows for these explorations as different degrees of form identification are transcended - even aquiescing to perhaps "less progressive" explorations, in the interest of free will, oneness and thoroughness of experience.

One more item for consideration. There may be any number of so-called "Christian BST's" for example, of description and variation that may have little or less to do with an actual "Christ Consciousness Terrain" - as these BST's have been formed by human conception. Masters of the highest order, like Christ, Krishna, etc., are said to each have their own "loka(s)", where their devotees (as qualified by those Masters) reside when not in manifestation on the physical plane.


- u

Albert-

Would you classify the Jehovah Witnesses as a cult?  I lost a life-long friend when he joined that group.  He tried for years to get me involved, and when he finally realized I would not, he told me he could no longer associate with me.

I suppose to do so would jeopardize his own chances of salvation.

These folks believe that when you die, you are dead until the day of Armageddon.  That makes me wonder, what happens when a devoted JW dies?  Does he/she awaken to the reality of soul survival, or do they remain in a death-like state until someone successfully retrieves them?

I've heard that agnostics deal with afterlife reality the best, because they have no preconceived convictions about what happens after death.  

This raises an interesting question to those who perform retrievals: have you ever been able to identify the religious affiliation of those you retrieve?  Have you ever retrieved atheists?  Are they more difficult to retrieve, given the fact that they had no belief system that included life after death?

Rog-B:

I don't have any personal experience with Jehova Withnesses.

I know lady who was a member up to the age of 23, and she thought the group was a cult.

I have an aunt who is Catholic. After her husband died Jehova Witnesses visited with her for a couple of years. She said they weren't influencing her, but then she started to say things such as, "After you die, you go to sleep for a while until Christ comes. After he comes, you come back to this World which has been transformed into paradise, rather than to the World of spirit." I told her that after you die, whatever you do, try to find the light. Look for Uncle Jack (her deceased husband).  She asked the Jehova Witness people who visited with her if upon her death they would attend her funeral services at her Catholic Church, and they said they wouldn't at first. One eventually said that she would. Eventually she stopped having them visit, but it still seems as if she has some of their ideas.

Regarding hollow heavens, I don't believe they exist to the extent people sometimes believe. There are numerous near death experiences where people with dogmatic thoughts were able to have an experience that lacked dogmatism. I believe it is more a matter of how much a spirit is able to open to love. If a spirit's belief system prevents it from opening to love, it might have to go through a growing process.

Maybe one day more and more people would be able to see a religion as a sort of temporary tool. Bruce talks in his books about the important role of imagination for nonphysical perception, and he told about his method of temporarily suspend disbelief. This is a playful, yet effective way to enhance the power of imagination, like "let's assume for a moment this is real". But only as long as it serves you well, so there has always to be some scepticism of your current models of the world, and curiosity about new ways to view the world.

That leads to agnostics. A reasonable type of agnosticism would be that there is no final knowledge as long as there is the "here/me" and the "there/not me". So everything we call knowledge is only knowledge until the point we know better; in other words, we always have a belief system of a dubious quality as long we're not one with everything.

Rog_B

Quote:

This raises an interesting question to those who perform retrievals: have you ever been able to identify the religious affiliation of those you retrieve?  Have you ever retrieved atheists?  Are they more difficult to retrieve, given the fact that they had no belief system that included life after death?

From what I know from my retrieval-experiences (I cannot guarantee for their authenticity), it often happens that a religious affiliation is obvious. Helpers just pick this person up where this person is, meaning, they use the belief of the retrievee to communicate with him/her, and try to make the best of it. It has it's limits of course. It's not that often you would have a discussion about the pros and cons of a specific religious belief (that can happen though), more often you just can't get through to some religious people, it's like a wall around them, and they directly go to their belief system, or make up their own little one.
  Atheists is a wide variety. Some just think it's not likely that there is an old guy with a long beard over there, you know. No problem with those. Then there are those who actively fight not only against any representation of God, but against the idea of God, and against the idea of an existence beyond physical death. This of course can be a problem. This type is in danger of, I'd say, "talking themselves into death". I had one who was very focused in murmuring and convincing himself that he is dead, and I was disturbing him in his efforts  :) . But I came across a black hole, or tunnel, that wasn't funny at all, it became very quiet, and the blackness seemed to start to consume me, and I received the info that's the place of the hardcore deniers, who firmly believe there is no afterlife. That's quite a challenge. It's a sort of paradox, they are denying the afterlife, therefore they don't perceive it, they aren't there, but to deny it, they have to be there.

Spooky

I guess Hell would be a heaven if you believed in Satanism.

I have never done a religious person recovery. Perhaps that is why I have some confusion on the matter. Also I must point out that F27 is not heaven. Its just a holding area also. An area for recovery and healing. A place to make choices. See, and in some cases, be seen. Help and receive help. Come back, move on... Learn ,teach
Personally, I think religions are in the game of entrapment. Please don't be confused by my words. Organised religions can do much good works and things. But you also have the other side of them. Control of people and ideas. Like the mentioned JWs. Some of who would rather see their children lose their life instead of allowing them to have a blood transfusion, for instance. My earthly emotions make me see that as murder and uncaring. A little hell on earth. Funny what people think are going to get them into their heavens. But of course there are always others. People  are indocternated with many different beliefs. Even as many of us are here who visit this sight. Will our hell be a place of nothing and not continuing to be/exist? Our heaven... never-ending awareness? Just what are these concepts of heaven and hell anyways.  Ridged beliefs entrap. It most likely makes no difference if you believe in on religion or the next. When your mind is fixed and unmoving, is that not a hell in itself. If you only believe in the Monroe concept then is not that a sort of hell also? (As I have been reminded to say, Bob would have never said that his way was the only way. Its only one way of looking at things. That you must decide what is and what is not. This allows movement.) Where as religion allows little movement from specific indoctrination. Do this, say this, pray this way or surly you will go to hell. I will pick my knowingness over their fixed heavens (and hells) any time.  

Perhaps "agenda" is to strong of a word. It would imply a conscious effort. Perhaps even malice. I don't think that is the case. Although....

Albert-

You said "If a spirit's belief system prevents it from opening to love, it might have to go through a growing process."

Yes, but what about those people who are sociopaths?  It's really not a belief system, it's the way their brain is wired (or mis-wired).

These people have absolutely no remorse about what they do.  They can, and do, kill other people as casually as you or I might swat a fly.

When they die, do they then become enlightened? Would a life review be of any value?  In fact, a life review showing them the fear their victims felt while they were being killed might even give them satisfaction.

Rog_B

Were you here before a long time ago?

Anyway, you said:


Quote:

These folks believe that when you die, you are dead until the day of Armageddon.  That makes me wonder, what happens when a devoted JW dies?  Does he/she awaken to the reality of soul survival, or do they remain in a death-like state until someone successfully retrieves them?

I think we had a discussion here of retrieval of someone who believed when you die, that is it...some sort of discussion of someone who just wouldn't wake up. Or was that discussion in one of Bruce's books? I looked for it in archive but I can't find it. Anyone else know where it is? or maybe we had it in the old chat room a long time ago. Trying to remember how it turned out.

Also whatever we are here, don't count on it being true there..so if you are a sociopath here does not mean you continue with this line of thinking there. I wonder if Michael Newton has written about this?

Hi Lucy-

Actually if we are not the same person after we die, the whole purpose of the life review as a learning tool would lose its punch.  After all, what good would it be to show us how our words and actions hurt others if we don't identify those things with ourselves?

I think Newton did address these concerns, but inadequately in my opinion. His clients told him that before a soul is allowed to incarnate, helpers make sure that he or she carries an appropriate amount of energy to cope with whatever challenges are set up.  Too much energy can be as negative as too little.  However, that doesn't really explain how a person can become a true sociopath which, from all I've read, is about as close to pure evil as you can imagine.  Think Charlie Manson.

Yes, I've been on Bruce's board from almost its beginning in the 90s.  

I vaguely recall Ginny years ago talking about trying to do a retrieval in a room full of people who could not or would not accept that they were still alive.  It was a huge challenge and as I recall she had great difficulty in reaching them.

Noting Spooky's mentioning atheists who do not believe in an afterlife, what happens when they die, I thought of my family members who are currently in the park, who were atheists all their lives. My brother in particular, who I found floating in darkness lyiing horizontally, a grey color, "living" out his belief system of no afterlife, and when I called to him to get up and go with me, he was a bit confused after waking up but did follow me without question to the park. His first words upon meeting our Dad there in his nice home, were, So, we can build things here??? After that he genuinely woke up and came to reality. Vee

Rog_B:

I figure such spirits will be able to move onto the light when they choose to make the changes that need to be made. They will receive a life review after they do so.


Rog_B wrote on Aug 21^st, 2008 at 9:25pm:

Albert- You said "If a spirit's belief system prevents it from opening to love, it might have to go through a growing process." Yes, but what about those people who are sociopaths?  It's really not a belief system, it's the way their brain is wired (or mis-wired). These people have absolutely no remorse about what they do.  They can, and do, kill other people as casually as you or I might swat a fly. When they die, do they then become enlightened? Would a life review be of any value?  In fact, a life review showing them the fear their victims felt while they were being killed might even give them satisfaction.

Actually, I thought the way I heard it was that in the life review, you get to experience everything from all perspectives.

I guess for a sociopath that could set up some interesting reverberations....could you end up being psyched by your own fear? feeding on your own fear? of course, if we are all interconnected, that is what is happening anyway. And what does the one who is the victim in C1 experience in the life review? Hmmm, I never thought about that before. Does the victim experience whatever it is that the sociopath experiences?

oh yuck. It was easier when I could just think of someone as either victim or perpetrator.

From everything I have read it seems to be a very personalized experience. When people describe their life reviews after their near-death experiences, their stories, in general, don't seem to have a horrified tone about the actual review, to my recollection. Is it just a mind expanding process, so perhaps we are simply able to experience "all" in such a way that we survive it, or process it in a certain way, in order to enter the next gateway?

wrote on Aug 23^rd, 2008 at 7:06am:

From everything I have read it seems to be a very personalized experience. When people describe their life reviews after their near-death experiences, their stories, in general, don't seem to have a horrified tone about the actual review, to my recollection. Is it just a mind expanding process, so perhaps we are simply able to experience "all" in such a way that we survive it, or process it in a certain way, in order to enter the next gateway?

Blink-

Yes, that is true regarding how people describe their life reviews.  However, the catch is that, as far as I know, there is nothing in the literature that deals with true sociopaths/psychopaths.

Consider this definition:

"The psychopath is defined by a continual seeking of psychological gratification in criminal, sexual, or aggressive impulses and the inability to learn from past mistakes (italics added). Using Freudian terminology, the psychopathic personality occurs when the ego can't mediate between the id and the super-ego, thus allowing the id to run off the pleasure principle, and the super-ego has no control over the actions of the ego. In other words, individuals with this disorder gain satisfaction through their antisocial behavior as well as lack of a conscience."

So a life review, revealing to the psychopath the emotions felt by those he killed, would seem to have limited or no value.  In fact as I stated before, it may very well just excite him.

Again, I don't think we should identify a psychopath's actions as the result of a belief system.  It seems to be, rather, the result of a severe personality disorder.  

Greetings,

Isn't healing done at various lower focus levels before any further afterlife processing? So wouldn't afterlife 're-wiring' be done before serious discussion too?

The 'bad wiring' in a brain that has aberrant patterns seems like it would require the same as other physical adjustments / healings done in the afterlife.

(I wish the title of this thread were different-- it sounds like it's a topic that the site guidelines don't allow, to speak against any specific belief system. But that's been avoided by speaking against so many!  :D Smooth move! )  :-/

Bets   :)


.

Yes, that is a definition of a person. I will agree with that.

Whether it is true or experienced in the way that we do here is still questionable to me. I find many things quite different over there in explorations.

It seems that many people, as Bets mentioned, have pre-existing conditions, physical ones, half-way states from which they exit, and other preoccupations.

Certainly, there seems to be a range of experiences to be found. Whether one is forced to participate is another matter.

I have found much in the readings to indicate supervision, and a loving presence which has a greater understanding than the individual crossing over.

Maybe that's all I'll ever know.


Rog_B wrote on Aug 23^rd, 2008 at 8:33am:

wrote on Aug 23rd, 2008 at 7:06am: From everything I have read it seems to be a very personalized experience. When people describe their life reviews after their near-death experiences, their stories, in general, don't seem to have a horrified tone about the actual review, to my recollection. Is it just a mind expanding process, so perhaps we are simply able to experience "all" in such a way that we survive it, or process it in a certain way, in order to enter the next gateway? Blink- Yes, that is true regarding how people describe their life reviews.  However, the catch is that, as far as I know, there is nothing in the literature that deals with true sociopaths/psychopaths. Consider this definition: "The psychopath is defined by a continual seeking of psychological gratification in criminal, sexual, or aggressive impulses and the inability to learn from past mistakes (italics added). Using Freudian terminology, the psychopathic personality occurs when the ego can't mediate between the id and the super-ego, thus allowing the id to run off the pleasure principle, and the super-ego has no control over the actions of the ego. In other words, individuals with this disorder gain satisfaction through their antisocial behavior as well as lack of a conscience." So a life review, revealing to the psychopath the emotions felt by those he killed, would seem to have limited or no value.  In fact as I stated before, it may very well just excite him. Again, I don't think we should identify a psychopath's actions as the result of a belief system.  It seems to be, rather, the result of a severe personality disorder.

Roger,

Society often has the impression that a psychopath is a cold and heartless person. In many cases this is not true.

A person with this disease often times does have the ability to love their immediate family such as parents, significant other, pets, etc. and does suffer emotionally when something happens such as the death of a loved one, divorce, etc. Even their own destructive behavior can cause them emotional distress and dissatisfaction.

Like everyone else they have a deep desire to be loved and accepted. They are also periodically aware of how their behavior affects someone else and many times can feel pain because of their inability to control their behavior. Because of the nature of the disease they manifest through cause and effect exactly what they are afraid of. As an example, they desire to be loved and cared about, yet how easy is it to love someone with a psychopathic personality?

Anyway, it would seem to me that a life review might indeed be beneficial to someone with this type of disease, especially if one considers a being is never totally disconnected from their soul/higher self as well as other beings that do have the capacity to love and help to guide them into learning states of consciousness that would be beneficial to their evolving spirit.

Kathy

Bets-

I have to agree about the title of this thread.  First of all the term "religious right" is pejorative.  It is almost always used to express contempt for Christians who happen to be politically conservative.

Second, it states that this group has an agenda to entrap souls.  That's a bit much.  Other groups can be said to have the same "agenda" as well.

Fortunately the thread didn't go off in that direction.  Good point.  Looks like we are our own best peer moderators.

Kathy-  well, I'll accept that some psychopaths are loving to their parents or siblings.  The point is, I don't know how a life review, from everything I've read, can be a teaching tool for them.  But then again, perhaps so.  The older I get the more I realize I don't really know that much.

I don't know that a *soul* would necessarily be pyscho or socio-pathic...I see it more as the brain is mis-wired so that the soul can't access those visceral feelings.  Maybe the learning intended is that they learn that regardless of how something feels to you, some things are just intrinsically wrong (like cold blooded murder), and you just don't do them, regardless.

Then when they get where they're going, and get to look at it objectively, they can see that right and wrong aren't because it makes *them* feel good or bad, but because it does harm outside themselves.

Psychopathologies may even be something that a fair number of inexperienced souls go through in early incarnations, until they eventually end up with something akin to a post-hypnotic suggestion in later lives - "If I do that, I'm gonna feel really really bad the next time I'm between lives."

So when planning the next one, they don't think it's such a hoot to end up in a body that can do things without remorse (or at least with less remorse than the "normal" person would feel.)  They either don't choose that for their next brain, or have enough ingrained learning that they can be "good" through intellectual understanding of right and wrong, even if they don't feel it.

Or I could be full of shit - it's happened once or twice...  8-)

Rog_B wrote:

Quote:

So a life review, revealing to the psychopath the emotions felt by those he killed, would seem to have limited or no value.  In fact as I stated before, it may very well just excite him.

This would only be the case when the life review would leave the reviewing person an observer, a watcher, but not when the reviewing person would actually feel as if being the other persons in this review. I hold this for possible.

One time in a meditation, I asked for informations about what I was before I had my first incarnation on earth. I received some impressions which showed a being which was absolutely cold hearted and arrogant. It destroyed other energy systems and consumed it's energy. After the first trip down to earth the identity of this me-being had totally changed. It (me) had been confronted with the limitations and laws of earth life, and it's arrogance had broken down to give space for humbleness.

Spooky

When having a medium reading years ago, after a former mother in law had passed away, she commented how sad she was that the marriage between her son and myself had not worked out, and then my daughter had been killed following our divorce, and said she wished things had worked out differently but she could not understand why things had gone like they had.

Her words suggested to me at the time that she had not done a life review, or she would have had better understanding, I thought, as she herself had perhaps unconsciously driven a wedge between her son and myself. But maybe I picked up wrong on that.

Again, years later, I was working around the home when suddenly without the slightest warning...I had not thought of this friend in years, an old friend who I had held in great esteem and love, a woman friend and an employer "stepped up" to me and whispered in my ear "I'm sorry."

That was all she said, and I knew instantly it was her, I could sense her presence completely, though she had "appeared" without warning, and I was so gratified and grateful that she had come to apologize and let me know she now understood.

Years before, there had been a terrible misunderstanding emerge between us which I could not find a way to repair, due to the behaviour of a third person. The ramifications of the misunderstanding were enormous and far reaching in my life and so unjust.

This small, sudden experience showed me that she had gone through a life review and had been shown everything that had actually happened...can you imagine what a relief, after so many sad years had passed with her thinking I had harmed her, and I loved her so much as a friend and employer and would never have harmed her.

She always wore the perfume "Heaven Sent" and to me she had indeed been Heaven Sent into my life, an angel of kindness. I continued to revere and love her down the years despite the misunderstanding though I never saw her again, so having her step up to me as I swept the patio outside that day and let me know she now knew the truth, was a great gift to me.

I am frequently grateful for it.

How could she have discovered the truth without having had a life review? She must have I think. Vee

hawkeye wrote on Aug 21^st, 2008 at 6:12pm:

I guess Hell would be a heaven if you believed in Satanism.

Not necessarily, Hawkeye.  I know a Satanist online, and he doesn't think that where he is going will be a nice place at all.  However, he apparently has some type of belief system where there is a hierarchy in the Hell he believes in, and he thinks that if he does certain things, he might be able to get high enough up in it that it won't be as bad for him there as it will be for other people.


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A place to make choices. See, and in some cases, be seen. Help and receive help. Come back, move on... Learn, teach.

The way I see it, The Moen/Monroe model only conflicts with existing organised religion at a fundamentalist level.  If you've progressed past that, however, to me it's entirely possible to integrate belief in a God from the existing organised religions with said model.  

If anything, I'm inclined to believe that it makes belief in God even more positive than before; because this model of the afterlife demonstrates in a very practical, tangible way that there truly is no judgement.


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Personally, I think religions are in the game of entrapment. Please don't be confused by my words.

Religions at an immature and fundamentalist level, yes.  However again, it's important to remember that pretty much all of them have a higher esoteric tradition as well, and the basic beliefs of those are all more or less the same.

I have no intention to point a finger at any one particular group of religious believers. All of them will do just fine. Do these organised religions, followers of a set doctrine of beliefs,  no matter who they are and in what God they answer to, have an agenda to entrap souls(for the lack of a better word) to their areas of the BST? Mormons to the Mormon area. JW to their area. (Note it might be a little smaller with only a few hundred thousand being allowed in) Scientoligsts to theirs. Nazis to the Nazi area... And those who look upon Monroe, as a belief, to be followed,....to their area (in F 25 or 26). Or is F 27 the Monroe area of the BST? Its just as easy to create a Monroe area in the BST. The point I was trying to make is that by having  "fixed" beliefs, your not going to advance yourself along the path to getting any further along the path to advancement. Those who want to stand in front of an alter on the other side, praying to whom ever they think is a God will at some point have to be dealt with or they will continue through the revolving door of reincarnation and earthly learning. You must believe in my God and pray the way we decide or you going to go to hell!! Ya, I don't think so. That might be OK for your Disk Group, but with mine, we gone through the revolving door of earthly life to many time to continue repeating the same game over and over again.
If I am not posting within the guidelines then kick my butt out, if that's what you feel is necessary. (Censorship shows a fear of the truth.) If you just don't like the message, oops..sorry.

excuse me if I seemed testy..
Its not that I think that these many religions or doctrines think that they could potentially be doing an entrapment.  They may call their areas "Heaven" and think its very important to have their followers going there. That would be because if your not there then your in hell. One or the other. Black or white. Left or right. Now I recall a retrieval story about a woman who was stuck. Not believing she was good enough to perhaps get into this so called heaven she had been raised to believe in. Stuck in a purgatory of nothingness. Then during the retreveal she was assisted in moving along through the M Band to F26 and poof off she went only to get stuck there. Not that she wasn't happy to be in her so called heaven. Just not ready to move farther along. Not even as far as F27. So is that good enough? Being superficially happy because you managed to reach an area that someone else has told you is the place you should be going? Well, I feel empathy for those who choose that path. Entrapment into others beliefs whether that is the Pope or the Krishna or the blah blah blah. That goes for F 27 as well. Not good enough. There is more to existence than just F27, home, the Park. While reviewing a Bob Monroe interview I came to an area where Bob had remembered why he left his home. Its not that it wasn't beautiful. Or a great place to spend time(?) It was repeating, over and over again. The same games. The curls were stuck and unwilling to experience change. I can't count the times I have heard just those same things about earth and time here. Things repeat themselves. History has repeated itself. With the possibility of big changes coming in just a few short years, I'm ready. Ready for that change. I believe that coming to this site is all a part of that change. This post is a part of that change. If I can open just one person up to the possibility that there is "more", then I have done what I needed to by this lifetime. More than a fixed Heaven or belief system. More that just one lifetime. More than life and death. More than a doctrine of unforgiving, intolerant God where when you drop that body of yours, and you have done what they desired of you, then you can spend an eternity is their heaven. Sorry but that sounds like more of a hell than a heaven to me.  

Yes, Hawkeye, sometimes I feel like I am some hundred years old, you know, been there, done that. Sometimes when I'm busy with a project suddenly the activity leaves me and I think: "Will you finally be happy when you've finished this project, because you have finished it? No. Then you'll head for another one." This will never end unless I change my way of thinking. As long as I feel I have to achieve something, I'm bound by it, I'm in this chain of events which cause other events etc.

It's a good thought when you mention a Monroe-belief-system. It seems like we can't escape ending up in some belief system place- or can we? The only way I feel would go in this direction is to simply believe nothing, letting it all happen, not caring, not having and not desiring a home, or even a reality. How far can you get with Zen? Probably nowhere  ;) . But that's where we want to go, isn't it?

Spooky

'With our minds we make the world' - not to mention all else by way of the realities we experience in the cycle of birth and death. I guess everything from sociopathic behaviour to atheism is no more no less a matter of belief, and of how strongly held these beliefs are.

Very deeply rooted fear and the consequent appearance of pure evil just means that the heart and the connection with spirit is so deeply buried that the connection with it has been lost, at least at the conscious level.

I guess entrapment by belief systems is as R says a consequence of the fact that it takes two to tango. Dogma can entrap only if it appeals in some way to the needs of an individual - usually a person prepared out of fear to over-ride their natural intelligence and intuitive knowing so that they can be a part of some sort of a group holding beliefs that at another level seems to ease that fear...