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Continued from "Biblical Fables?" in the main "Afterlife Knowledge" Forum...

recoverer said,
Quote:

There is also the matter of whether a teacher's life matches his teachings. There are so many gurus with a way of life that doesn't match their teachings. If you care to look, take a look. If not, don't cast stones at people who are wise enough to do so.
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=%22sri+chinmoy%22+Sex%22&btnG=Searc...

Who is casting stones here? And why is it wise? Ok, I see..."casting stones" as a Biblical reference keeps it on topic. ;)

Recoverer, since it was you who brought up the whole 'guru' issue in the originating thread in the first place, and then further addressed the above to me, (I do question the specific relevance to the originating topic) ok, since it has been introduced by you I feel it entirely appropriate to respond to your dire need to explore this issue. Who knows, maybe something positive will come out of it. I have chosen to move this reply to the 'off-topic' area in deference to the community in order to spare members from yet another diversion of yet another thread into yet another potentially painful "____ is a fake" debate because of imo your compulsive reactive antipathy to particular "bad words" and "bad sources" (eg guru, ACIM, Buddha, Osho, Seth, Chinmoy, etc., etc etc, anyone but Christ?) including the above which was not even part of the discussion until mentioned by you - thus requiring response, rebuttal and further exploration in the interest of fairness, and open examination -- all at your invitation. I will try to accommodate your request while asking for members indulgence, but please, don't anyone accuse me of diverting the topic - ok? because now this is now the topic per recoverer.

So here we go...

The record will show r, that I have never, ever disparaged the Christ. Quite the contrary.

That is not in the spirit of PUL, nor is it an intelligent use of my life energy. Nor does it benefit the evolution of the creation.
Why would I therefore waste my precious time and harm both myself and others in the utterly foolish, useless activity of disparaging someone else's chosen Ideal, or inspiration?

Yes, I whole-heartedly agree with you that a look should be taken to examine the consistency of a master's teaching - a careful open minded look - not only a facile, dismissive, narrow and negative one. I wonder, r, by your own "standard" demonstrated here by you, would the Christ pass muster?

I will state for the record to spare you, r, from further imo arrogant presumption (do you really think for instance, that just because someone has not boasted that "the Christ sits on my cheek", etc., that they are a complete novice or fool?)- that I have spent a good deal of time thoroughly investigating this issue in depth and detail, in many dimensions and vectors as part of my own work, and I do not mean just this week. I can further assure you, that I like to try to get to the heart of any matter and not waste my time - all for what I can make positive use of, for the benefit of my own truth search and transformation which I take fairly seriously (or at least that is my intention), the results of which may also be of service to anyone else directly, indirectly and collectively, if you can appreciate that concept. Can you also appreciate that everybody is engaged in the same authentic struggle?

Even if only one single person out of billions on the planet by their own free will, discovers and chooses a singular inspiration or something useful in a particular form and nobody else does - it is still not only valid and meaningful but extremely valuable and significant as an individual's unique achievement within the general cosmic evolution. That is the principle of oneness in diversity which imo far supercedes all the blathering, bloviating, explaining, complaining, justifying, and debating - that by nature can never be resolved "objectively" - as when someone "wins" a debate, that does not always establish truth. But the process may reveal truth...

I have tried to look at a broad picture - the preponderance of general evidence in the theory, writing, applied practice, the accomplishments, legacy, also making the required effort to examine first hand the phenomenon itself, and most importantly - the human potential, as primarily evidenced by the followers and people who have been positively influenced - and yes, even looking at the "downside". I think in a process of discrimination required here, it is important to meditate on the consciousness of the various sources, and not make the mistake of identifying with and superimposing the consciousness of the negative onto the positive because of a certain predisposition. And yes, everyone does have a voice, but again, my assessment shows on one side nothing but a muddled negativity, hearsay, and destructive intent, and on the other a vastly different in both scope and depth (and imo astonishingly so) consciousness of clarity, positive intent, and manifestation. I am sorry to disappoint - but it all comes down to this: I have no use for the negative because it excludes opportunity, and I can and have benefitted from the positive because it gives access to opportunity. That is the true measure of utility for me, as directly accessed by me, and not mediated by "gate keepers" who have a personal agenda involving hate.

Further...

As you can see, those links you present are old stuff and seem imo fairly flimsy by now by comparison to a bigger picture that has emerged over many years. While you might characterize the people responsible for those stories as "fake disciples", "frauds", or maybe "ego-driven cult-busters", I might view them as bitter, negative, disaffected people who were overwhelmed by their untransformed qualities and obviously chose to project a viscious, deceitful destructive force in a pathetic attempt to vindicate their own failure as spiritual aspirants (or whatever), by appealing to the sensational, the prurient, and the prejudicial - thus attempting to resurrect their damaged self-esteem? Or, they were just ignorant people who simply wanted to destroy what they didn't have the capacity to understand. So what? Its a very old story.

It is a structural issue endemic to the landscape of all spiritual masters, (and really anybody threatening the status quo, because they - especially the great ones, come here to make the biggest changes, both individually and collectively - changes the yet untransformed lower nature does not want to make because it enjoys its current dominance in the life-sphere. Hence the supression, repudiation of, and rebellion against all great Truth bringers who threaten the supemacy of ignorance. It happened to them all. People wanted to destroy the Buddha and kill His successors. Even today, 2500 years later it is happening to the Dalai Llama. It happened to the Christ who was slandered, persecuted and killed. Ghandi, King, Mandela, etc., etc...(on an individual level it is also happening right now inside each and every person) So beside guns, knives, crucifixes, prisons - they now use the internet for the same thing. Big deal - sign of the times. And in following the old tradition, for every person who slanders and opposes, there are many who have the opposite opinion, because truth cannot be stopped, even though it seems hopeless at times, even though it seems slow going.

Excepting for the naive and deliberately insulated mindset, even a fairly casual study and observation of human psychology and practical dynamics of spiritual work, both internally and communally within any tradition, will reveal the likely underlying origins and motivations for such issues to surface, and why it is somewhat inevitable. It is a fairly predictable pattern of behaviour in these cases involving individual internal dynamics and how they play out in the greater group dynamic. You can even see it where you work and in ugly divorces.

Meanwhile,
IMHO, the man's achievements do represent a virtual inundation of the physical plane by positive example of his teaching and imo abundantly do speak for themselves - provided one makes the sincere effort to look, and it is not that difficult. Abundantly is an understatement, both in quantity and quality in many fields - connected to and originating from the spiritual. Yes, by all means, investigate and evaluate if you are interested. I did. Personally, I am impressed and inspired by it, and I know it has helped me.

So, 'knock yourself out'. See what you want to see. Use what you want to use. It is everyone's right to choose what inspires them and facilitates their evolution, even if others don't find it appealing. It is also everyone's right to ignore what does not inspire them. That is the beauty of the creation. What is really ugly is when people try to deliberately destroy others' inspiration, especially in the name of love. That is a right nobody has.

http://www.srichinmoy.org/sri_chinmoy
http://www.srichinmoy.org/kind_words
http://www.srichinmoy.org/kind_words/tributes_sri_chinmoy
(btw- positive comments from other musicians in the above link, including McLaughlin),
http://www.srichinmoy.org/service (see nav links on left)
http://www.srichinmoylibrary.com (writings)

As to this matter:
recoverer said,
Quote:

If a person really had a high level of understanding, I doubt that this person would choose to label his or her self as an enlightened, self realized, awakened, or God realized being. Such a person would understand that such terms have been so over used, that he or she wouldn't want to have anything to do with such a term.

It seems you have a lot of doubts.
Perhaps you did not read my lead post in the thread, which substantially addressed this issue - or maybe you saw the word 'guru' and had a memory erasing seizure...
Through all the discussion here at this site, including the philosophically outlandish, intellectually dishonest, mean spirited personal attacks, the attempted patronizing and flattering of Bruce, UFO's and lizard men, I have never seen such a lame and bizarre statement - -

As if the rarest, most significant thing in the manifested universe, "the goal of goals" of human life since the dawn of man, an unfathomable achievement - once accomplished is then something to be ashamed of, denied or hidden? Not to mention the rather absurd stretch in prescribing what constitutes appropriate "understanding" or behaviour on behalf of such a Being. Again, evidently neither the Christ, Krishna, the Buddha, Ramakrishna or others subscribe to or prove your notion.

In fairness, here is my own parallel absurdly presumptuous statement:
No one who has real genuine personal intimate contact with the true Christ Consciousness, especially on a regular ongoing basis, could possibly allow themselves to disparage other beings' inspirations and paths in the name of love. Such a person would understand, having been exposed to that pure unconditional love, that Christ's Oneness is within all paths and teachings.

As to Santana, based on my own research - my theory: evidently all the rank ambition, money, drugs, groupies, parties, fame, attention, exploitation, vanity, ego-stroking, power tripping - all idolized on a pedestal by sycophants literally drooling on, throwing themselves at the pedestal of the idol (it is quite stunning and amazing r, how convenient that pedestal can be when it serves as a foundation for your prejudice, isn't it?) may have been too much of a tempting contradiction for him to reconcile. Especially having all the money, fame and attention to reinforce and facilitate the already difficult tendencies of untransformed ego must have been an excruciating demand. Plus, it seems he didn't really understand what it was all about anyway - expecting a "quaint & casual neo-hippie religious commune/country club", and getting a "the Harvard & West Point of spirituality" run by a challenging uncompromising Enigma, instead of a pliable predictable concierge. In the end he seems to have settled for perhaps what he wanted all along - a conventional morality, middle-class, 'family values' lifestyle - with untold wealth, fame (and "miscellaneous benefits") to boot. While there is nothing wrong with that, and I am sure it is quite comfortable in every possible way - it is not going to affect a radical transformation of life, at least the kind an intense committed spiritual life is supposed to accomplish. But that is not for everyone because - who wants to get up and meditate at 5 am when they are hung over from the party? Perhaps he just didn't understand it**, didn't try or want to, and basically could not handle it? And of course, such a failure (really the ego's success) for an extremely ambitious person like that, might require plenty of "convincing narrative" both for himself, his adoring fans, and not to mention the record co. marketing dept. (in our culture, a Latino Catholic pop-idol with a cute little hat, on a pedestal is a much easier, and bigger sell than an incomprehensible guru follower wearing a dhoti, lets face it) -- in order to justify and disavow that "bizarre" chapter in his life. This too is an old and familiar story.

** As an example - the so-called homophobia issue. While Santana may be a gifted guitarist, he is certainly no Santayana. What I mean is, knowing a few things about Chinmoy's teaching, including his tireless promotion of athletics as a benign means of transforming the individual and collective consciousness towards much needed world harmony, I can speculate that he was a little disappointed that Billy Jean King, once "outed", used her status as a great athletic champion to further what amounts to an "undue" preoccupation in defining life by sexual orientation and preference. There, did i say that tastefully enough? Or, since she did promote athletics also, a focus on that other aspect may have seemed counter productive for world progress in Chinmoy's eye's and maybe he siad so. Homo or hetero does not matter here. Sex is the baser form of energies that exist in an ascending continuum. Many traditions involve the transmutation of that energy into higher forms, and I have even seen recoverer's personal references to this phenomenon. To use a great public influence to emphasize the sexual element in life, which is already the defacto standard of preoccupation and the cause of so much human suffering, may have seemed regressive, not progressive as a focus, and perhaps a wasted opportunity from a spiritual point of view. I do not think Santana could grasp the subtlety involved, or like mentioned above, did not want to as he was looking for a way out. It is certainly a matter of public record that Chinmoy met with, corresponded with, admired and inspired many people in many walks of life who were gay, especially because another of his focuses was to accomplish the same transmutation in and through the arts. So this sensationalism just doesn't hold water.

On the author (Rick Ross) of the quoted piece (also from previous research - if memory serves correctly, but it is a matter of public record (not hearsay) if you want to verify): He is a conservative Jewish man with a publicly stated hostility (and that is saying it nicely) towards 'non-traditional beliefs', who made lots of money, reportedly $40k per kidnapping and "deprogramming" people who basically posessed different belief systems from himself and the people paying him. He was arrested for kidnapping by the FBI, but a deal was made by prosecutors to consolidate and dispatch several civil (including the ACLU) and criminal suits, in which his so-called anti-cult business was legally and financially dismantled and he had to do some kind of community service. I think he got off light.

So this is how far a small-minded negative obsession goes, this is where it leads: to disparage, discourage and denounce others' inspirations, to denigrate someone who dedicated their entire life to serve urgent world need - by using the questionable complaints (from 40 years ago), of an ambitious fame seeking pedestal stomping pop-culture idol, in an article by a man who made a living kidnapping, imprisoning and torturing legal adults because they had non-traditional belief systems. And all for what? Christ, r. Get a life.

- u

Hey Alysia,

I rather liked your above reply, especially the overall spirit of it.
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glad to see u here once more Justin. I have always felt our connections run deeper than our surface chatter.
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there is no way to measure a person's spiritual level
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Justin:
There are ways to generally gauge the general and most consistently predominant spiritual "level" of others. Is that important to do so though?
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not to me is it important to guage levels, but perhaps to guage intentions of a person. that would be called discernment of spirits in olden days. u can do that by picking up certain words that are connected to emotions.
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Justin says:
Not usually i believe. But when there arise those that would be leaders and teachers to others, particularly of spiritual truth and when you ask others OR yourself to accept them as such
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those that are "considered" leaders or teachers are perhaps not your own leaders or teachers; but they are always somebody's temporary leader. theres two ways to look at it: either a poster is sharing, or a poster is projecting guilty behavior unto another party. it is important to be able to tell the difference before responding to a post.
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Justin:
then yes i believe it's important to use one's discrimination and to at least generally gauge the general "level" of such a one if only for oneself.
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judging the general level of another, falls into the category of perception and interpretation functions of the mind, which is unique to each of us, in that we are not all in agreement, because of duality world where opposition exists. discrimination, like the observer function needs to be nurtured within experience of physicality. we are all teachers in truth, in the way that whenever we open our mouths to say something, we are teaching another who we are, or who we "think" we are, even who we might wish to be.
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Justin says:
It seems too many too oft become over attached to such outer sources or teachers, and then oft of course ego reactive arguments oft ensue when someone doesn't believe as we believe and especially when they challenge those beliefs.
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Yes, I agree attachment issues are important to look at. Ideally, we can aspire to be unattached to teachers eventually, and I see this happen where the student must move unto either another teacher, or enter a stage of listening to their own inner teacher consistently enough so that going to outer teachers is no longer necessary, but rather at that point the student becomes the teacher. To aspire to a place of non-reactive temperament would seem to be something every human eventually must master, as oppositional factors will exist in a world where those opposite polarities themselves are part of the ELS and built into it. it would not mean to do nothing, nor express nothing, it would mean your expressions now would be without projection of guilt unto yourself or others, therefore anger would turn to self-determination which is very creative.
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Justin is giving us something now: thank you for this:

One way to gauge the temporary "level" of spiritual development is easy and consistently accurate, though of course people having freewill are oft variable in tendencies and so may not always be completely consistent, some if ever in this life.
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you're right Justin, we are basically not consistent in our levels of awareness but fluctuate until that consistency is nurtured and desirable and focused.
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Justin describes color discernment:
The spiritual or energetic color emanations do not lie, and various sources talk about a similar concept, the core Soul colors of a person, which is somewhat beyond the generalized talk of "auras". Auras is a bit more complicated of an indication and have many levels in them which are more directly connected to the physical energies, to the most spiritualized Spirit emanations of a being.
The core Soul colors is more simple, and generally less variable in one life.
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In general, I don't hear much talk about colors in the aura, or soul colors, and I think we could do well to study what u r talking about.
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Justin continues:
Sure, to some extent one's own overall development and momentary clarity does influence the depth and accuracy of perception of this level, but most people can perceive the basic hue of such indications.
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the basic hue you speak of, may be a special gift you have of discernment. I find we all have different gifts. for some of us work more with different types of intuitional processes; such as dream work, obe-ing, meditation, which results unravel in linear time, immediate perception of a person's hue, or color, or as I call it, their intentions, for me, cannot be ascertained at a glance by using my interpretation facility. but if I set aside my first reaction or interpretation and take a second look at a person, or their post, for example, I pick up a different message entirely, and the 2nd interpretation seems to come from a different radio station dial, so to speak. the first voice of interpretation seems to come from my ego, which would be desiring to assert itself first; that would be reactive circumstance, and not PUL. it's actually only my job to ascertain my own motives and intentions, in that regard and the poster's intentions would be secondary to comment on.
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Justin:
In a respect, these indications are seemingly "linear" in nature, as in the nature of a rainbow, they go from the slower vibratory rates, to the faster (not truly linear because it is more like a connected circle than a straight line). Basic red being very slow vibrating and violet/magenta being fastest of colors. Course it's not limited to this by any means.
If you sense violets, blue purples, golden hues and especially the more pure and vibrant White Light in relation to the core Soul colors, then know that these sources and teachers can be trusted. Even then, it does not profit people to get overly attached to these teachers or sources.
I wouldn't listen deeply to or follow a supposed "guide" whose core Soul color was say a leaden red hue, for there is so much selfishness indicated in such a emanation that there would be much twisting of the path in such hanging on or over absorption into..
And yet to be sure, there have been plenty "teachers" who have arose, who through their own turning away from Source in consciousness, have misled others whether they know it or not ( they often probably don't).
To perceive this, does not necessarily mean to "judge". You can perceive without judging, and sometimes discrimination is quite an important attribute to develop.
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right. to perceive is not the judgment. the judgment would be if you somehow made someone else wrong by expressing that their color is a dark hue; if the intention is to teach, to assist along positives, the positive must be accentuated over the negative aspects of the person you would assist. the problem in expressing a basic negative without balancing it with the positive, is that it automatically produces in the other a reaction of defense. this in turn makes a war condition.
whereas, say for example, you noticed the basic reddish hue, but you also noticed some gold shafts slowly filtering into the total red hue, then you would mention this positive aspect and not arouse their reactionary defense mechanism of the ego. then you would be assisting, if they were a thoughtful person, they would pick up also your intentions to assist their growth, rather than judging them. there is also a thing called killing with kindness. I don't think you yourself would have that problem Justin! ;) is why I mention balancing the negative with the positive statement and re-reading our posts to one another to make sure we are not being judgmental.
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Justin:
Personally, some of the teachers that some promote here, i don't get particularly spiritualized vibes from when i look at their pics, read their stuff, or generally research them or when i go within and feel them out. Is that something to concentrate or focus on, no, and doing so probably just facilitates more separation in this world and in self. But to initially discriminate that can be helpful.
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Some of these teachers will attract only the students that best suit that pathway. I think when we speak of teachers here, we eventually stop speaking of them, because we are aware truth will come from within, as you seem to know that quite well, and we promote self exploration more than what is taught by various parties. Yet even if it's a case, in the final analysis of the blind leading the blind, we can approach all pathways and teachings with an open mind to weigh what is being said. It could be certain teachers have only partial truths to offer, in that case, a mere aha moment to a student, who will move unto another teacher and gain more aha moments somewhere else.
I think in this type of board environment, freedom to share what we've learned from others, as well as personal experiences, is what this board is about. Some spiritual ideas are beyond our grasp, and so it is necessary to write it down, as you never know but what the thread will provide a missing link in our thought system, through someone's sharing what is important to them. In the end, it is PUL that we offer each other freedom to express themselves fully as possible, without inferring there is something wrong with them, therefore it seems like a judgment and makes them feel "less than" the poster who concentrated on a negative statement to put forth. we are basically all equal, and the roles we play now, we will shuck off at some point. as well regarding teachers one and all, well known or not, within all is the spark of God and their deeds and words will be corrected sooner or later by forces outside our direct control. these forces of good are upon us all these days.
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Justin:
And yet i was drawn here because of a more truly humble teacher, one Bruce Moen.
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Yes, Bruce's colors are great. I think it has to do with his PUL and if you read his books, he's even teaching the aliens about PUL!
he's nonjudgmental, but even Bruce told me once, he is still learning and that is believable to me, that as long as we exist in body, we will be learners, and no one who thinks they are enlightened, and says so, I do not think that these are truly enlightened, but wish they were. that is the ego talking again. so all we can do is share our experiences from our heart space, for we can only change our perspective, our attitude in that regard, and we cannot expect to change the other person, nor even the world. but by working on our selves, to come from the heart, we are effecting the world.
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Justin continues:
Notice how Bruce doesn't call himself an Avatar, doesn't call himself enlightened, doesn't put himself on any kind of special pedestal. Notice he hasn't been accused by anyone of sexual molestation, greedily taking in others money and resources, etc., etc. many of these being fairly common in both dogmatic Christian churches and the guru game of India.
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Begging your pardon But Bruce has come under attack like all of us, I think he handles it as best he can. if Bruce is not complaining about all that is said here and allows this board to talk about whatever, then we should not try to make a problem where there is none. He will move in to remove a thread to the proper room sometimes. what I think you need to do is not get emotionally attached to Bruce where it seems as if you are stepping in to defend him. He deserves much more credit for his work than he gets, but I think basically he's in good spirits and enjoying what he does and whenever we can we should thank him for paying for cyberspace for us, when basically we are just a bunch of chatterboxes...although some good has come of this forum and more daily does come.
He has told you he is an ordinary man, an engineer by profession. We have no reason to think that he is lying about being just like us, thus still learning, teaching and growing; like we all are doing. He does have quite a knack for the way he can show us how to do our own explorations.
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Justin said:
It's ok to let oneself get absorbed into a not so truly spiritually awakened teacher or source, because there will eventually come a point when a person will realize how they are limiting themselves (and perhaps having a limiting influence on others) and i believe it will work out in the end for most, if not all.
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I just heard the Buddha himself did not ascend in that life as the Buddha, but had one more life to go..so all this talk we do of different gurus, it has become moot point for me. I think the problem in a cult situation or becoming absorbed in untruth is a worldwide situation, not just the student/guru climate, it's again a duality world where contrast and oppositional factors are natural impediments. you're right, it does work out in the end, yet I wonder, and this is funny, why hindsight is 20/20? I think it has to do with our navigating thru illusions, as well relying too much on one single source of information concerning spirituality. not to speak of language difficulties and various interpretations of the same object.
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Justin: But, personally i see merit in a speedier recovery, if only it's from a limited perspective. The more of us that truly awake, the more it speeds it up, and the momentum builds and healing for ALL is that much closer.
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I agree totally. I believe and I've found this in certain literature and experience that a thought of love gathers more momentum than does a thought of lack of love linked to a fearful conjecture or a scarcity projection.
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Justin: i see merit in that, and not being overly passive and blase about it all. Why else are so many real guides constantly trying to reach and facilitate us moving in the right directions? So yes, why not use our discrimination and use and balance our right brain/heart side with our left brain/mind side?
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I think what u r saying is you "saw" something and wished to bring it to a poster's attention, and that u wish to not be a passive, nor blase in attitude. you are not passive nor blase, so don't worry about that! yes, I think we do that here, or at least we try to express the principles behind the hemi-sync model.
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Justin: P.S., yes i believe one can take the oneness concept too far, if you stop seeing the trees for the forest, just as it's limiting to not see the forest by overly concentrating on the trees. Both have to be perfectly balanced for the full truth to be perceived, known, and lived, imo.
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let me explain a little bit about what I said about Ultra and Recoverer. they have a relationship. the one on one relationship where there is energetic connection. in this sense, their relationship is One thing.
In their relationship they may find oneness if they are able to conclude something.
if one person makes a statement of absolutism, and another disagrees, you then have oppositional factors engaged to produce, ideally a joining and enhancement of each other: call it the product would be PUL. PUL is a mind expansion thing, as well as a heart thing.

when I said they seem like the same person posting under different names, it was a brief flash of intuition operating. I will probably never know for sure if that perception is true as you notice, neither one is responding to my statement. you did, so thanks!

nothing is feeling quite as sad as not getting any response to something that came in as intuition, thus seemingly from outside of self. however, I released it in self expression. that was all I was supposed to do. we share ourselves here, what we are really thinking and feeling, without judging any as less than another person.

then we have perfect balanced situation, and I really don't care if anyone responds to my posts, as it's more important to express ourselves sometimes if you feel the nudge to communicate with others at all. for as you know Justin, there are times when we don't want to reach out to others at all, for we are ALL misunderstood as we go along towards whatever waking up means to us individually.

thank you, sorry for the book length post. I'll probably take a long 2 day break now! loved your post on JC's travels btw.

very interesting indeed! alysia

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https://afterlife-knowledge.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi Forums >> Off Topic Posts >> CASTING STONES? a response to recoverer https://afterlife-knowledge.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?num=1218922389 Message started by ultra on Aug 16^th, 2008 at 5:33pm