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I need to connect to my daughter who passed in September 2007. I am going crazy without her. For the first 2 months she was around doing things. Then on her birthday in November just after she passed. We had a party for her. I told her she could go I was ok because I felt she was staying around to be with me. I havent felt her since. At least not enough to satisfy my needs. I am lost with out her. I need to know she is still out there. I want to communicate with her.
Katrina

I know John (my late husband) will be around for a while, then seem to wander off, and then show back up again like gangbusters (I think he thinks he's in trouble for disappearing... ;) )

I don't know a universal method of communicating - others here know far more than I do about that, but I know that even after they seem to be gone, they often reappear. Time being wonky over there probably doesn't help...

Greetings kthorse,

and welcome. :)

Even many of us who have offerred the service of visiting passed loved ones
are now asking our Higher Selves/ Oversouls etc to first find out if it is OK to
do so. We risk interrupting their continuing spiritual development to just drop
in on them.
You released your daughter's spirit once and she went on. You did the loving
choice by letting her go.

Have you tried the 'focussed imagination' method of making contact?
At about the same time each day you sit quietly and think lovingly of her,
referring to her by her full name. then you begin a conversation (mentally
or aloud), then asking her questions. Eventually she may respond with
information beyond anything you could have known.

It turns out that imagination is the gateway to realms of the spirit
that we've overlooked for centuries. By learning these techniques for yourself,
you'll then have the freedom to lovingly use them as you choose.

Bets

Hello kthorse

Try to read this article By Bruce:

http://www.afterlife-knowledge.com/contact.html

"It turns out that imagination is the gateway to realms of the spirit" this words by Bets, are 100% correct , try to make contact, ask questions, wait for answers, and you will see!

juan

Hi kthorse,

I know most of you won't agree with what I have to say but...

:-[I'm saddened to say that what I believe happened to you is that when you told her to go that it was ok, that it is simply the fact that YOU had now accepted the fact she was gone and that your mind would then stop playing tricks on you... That is my belief!

I always wanted to believe there was an afterlife but I don't anymore... In fact, I am now convinced more than ever that when we die, it's the end of everything...

My ultimate proof to me was my mom passing away in early May. If there was really a life after death, she would have come back to let me know, that I know for sure... And unfortunately, nothing like that ever happened, so I now have my proof...

Sorry

Snoopydoo

Snoopydoo wrote on Jun 13^th, 2008 at 12:50pm:

well Snoopydoo, you're right about one thing; most of us do not agree with you. and the fact that you are here, have come to a board entitled Afterlife Conversation shows that you wish perhaps to find evidence that there is an afterlife.

that means your mind is not entirely closed down to the possibility that there is. good. as well, although I'm huffing in the wind here to you, still, it would help to suggest, maybe to others here, a closed mind is not able to recieve anything but what it wishes to see. an open mind will be much easier for spirit to communicate with. but of course you are not knowing what I mean by spirit either. we can just call spirit to be, something larger, more loving, more all knowing than our respective egos with tunnel vision. and I include myself to have tunnel vision but working on it.

The nonphysical folks in this other dimension have great difficulty getting through to their loved ones although this is practically their only activity to do so. They must often resort to such things as butterflies, picture moving, slipping into your dreams when the mind is relaxed, all sorts of ways that your mother may have tried without success, all this because she surely loves you..all mothers love their kids.

when I lost my husband, at first I flipped out in anger. this is a natural phrase to go thru. I asked myself how he could leave me if he really loved me, and with his kids, all alone. I had to work through the anger which is a hurting thing behind it. I had to forgive him for taking an early leave of absence from us. I knew there was an afterlife. We soon established communication. but even with the communication there, it takes a awhile to get through the feeling of being wronged, as they left, and without a goodbye even.
I suspect you are feeling this anger towards your mom and that you love her so much, that's why you feel it and how you deal with it, is to say "well, there's no afterlife, so live for today and don't suffer about the fact that this is all there is, what you see is what you get." Don't cry you say to yourself.

but it's ok to cry, it's ok to have hope to see them again. It's ok to continue to search and be open to the possibility that you could be wrong, and if you are, that's when you might find your own evidence.

Love life, love yourself as hard as you can, because it's for sure, you won't be this particular person ever again, so appreciate yourself and don't close down. ask for a sign. you can get what you ask for, I know, I do it all the time.

Katrina, maybe she is waiting to make sure you really want that connection/communication again, that you are ready for it. I too think that there can be, sometimes, very long lapses in communication, but other things can occur that are worth noticing, in the meantime. One thing is certain, your daughter knows you love her very much.

love, blink

to add to Blinks thoughts, Katrina, you could be signaling to your daughter you want another communication and she may be involved in her own intense self discovery, some project she is unable to communicate "on call." it doesn't mean she has forgotten you.

I'd say a little talk, like sending a little PUL (love) to her might yield up another communication, something like, "if you ever want to get in touch with me and have the time, I'm always available." I send my love.

just something simple like that will sometimes work. they are able to recieve our thoughts and feelings. hang in!

Hallo All, and Katrina, but specifically in reply to Snoopydoo,

Yours is a natural reaction, but I would second the replies above, especially that of Laffing Rain, which probably says most that can be said, and that of Bets in reply to Katrina. I would just add that, if your Mum passed away only this May, then that's not a long time - initial communications, in whichever form they might occur, may be several months after the date of passing. Certainly this was the case with my Dad (who came in the form of a dream 3 or 4 months later, and later even than that to my sister - he even asked me a question: Did I understand everything he had done?), and with my Mum, who passed just this February, and who let me know in no uncertain terms, (as far as I am concerned), that she was now OK, in April. You may have read the Alzheimer's and Afterlife thread, in which I posted those experiences as they occurred, as I had first come to this Board seeking advice on the subject of how Alzheimer's might have affected her as she passed over.

Try to remain open to the possibility of receiving something, and keep strong your desire for that to happen.

Best wishes,

Alfred

This is the way i contact people in the spirit world.I lay in bed and i imagion that the spirit world is on the other side of the wall.than i perject my mind on the outside of the wall.After that I ask for a guide to take me to the person I am looking for.you must be still an lisson to that voice,it is like a thought,when you hear it you can use your thoughts to say hello to your daughter.you will pick up her thoughts.Good luck George

Thanks to all for your input... I truly hope you are right and that I will get contact soon.

Alfred wrote on Jun 13^th, 2008 at 10:58pm:

Hello

Same here, the time is between 4 to 6 months, in that period of time they can communicate mostly in "dreams", Meanwhile you can contact them by the method that explain George Stone, and Bruce.

Good luck

Juan

Hi,

Why do you say in 4 to 6 months??? Why can't it be like now?

Also, what makes you believe that it is actually them in dreams and not only your subconsious that is giving you an image of your loved-one? I mean, it's only a dream and might only be a dream as well, it's not like if you actually see the person right in front of you in your room while you are fully awake?

Thanks

Snoopydoo

Snoopydoo wrote on Jun 17^th, 2008 at 1:03pm:

Hi Snoopydoo;

in investigations that I made with friends mediums and books I've read, I have always heard that they need "Time for Adaptation" is the time where the soul needs to adapt to their new status ain a "new dimension" and they need to "learn" to communicate with us, the change from this dimension to another dimension, it is NOT a easy thing, as some people say, especially when the person unknown on these issues, as happens with the 99% of the society.

in my personal case I could only have contact my with my grandfather, five months after his death, only after this time he could come in a dream and was able to "SHOW ME" (NO SPEAK) certain things that only he know, and he also show to me a new car that he had in the afterlife (later I confirm with my father because, only my father know that this is the kind of car that my grandfather liked), the afterlife is the land "where all your wishes are fulfilled" because the afterlife it is a world of "thoughts",
But only after this time, they can communicate because they don’t' know how to do, and they need to adapt to this new dimension and learn.

Note:
The late scientific F.W.H. Myers (1843–1901) famous for "the cross correspondences" from the afterlife define communication between worlds as "..... The nearest simile I can find to express the difficulty of sending a message is that I appear to be standing behind a sheet of frosted glass, which blurs sight and deadens sound, dicatating feebly to a reluctant and somewhat obtuse secretary. A feeling of terrible impotence burdens me. Oh it is a dark road......."
(the obtuse secretary is the famous medium Geraldine Cummins)

Juan

PD
I' sorry for my English, if you don’t' understand something, please let me know! :)

Theses links can help!

About Myers:
http://www.answers.com/topic/cross-correspondence
http://www.trans4mind.com/spiritual/cummins/cummins2.html
http://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/cgi/content/full/162/1/34

About Mediums:
Allison Dubois: http://www.allisondubois.com/index.php/Frequent-Questions/
Rosemary Altea: http://www.rosemaryaltea.com/faq/faq.cfm

for myself this is on of the best link: http://www.victorzammit.com/

Hallo Snoopydoo,

Juan is quite right - it seems to be the "norm" for these things to take time, although of course there are other forms of communication which may be almost instantaneous, like crisis apparitions, where a person involved in a serious life-threatening scenario, or actually dying suddenly, can appear to a loved one immediately. But these are more "forced" (involuntary?) projections, rather than the intentional communications we are seeking. (Incidentally, the same FWH Myers that Juan refers to also studied these types of projections, and published them in a classic work of psychical research, "Phantasms of the Living").

On your other comment about whether a dream is really a visit or not - of course, many dreams will be produced by your own subconscious, but the "visitation" dream always has a different quality: more vivid, meaningful, stays in the memory long after "normal" dreams have faded, and often has an overt or covert message. In the case of my father's visitation dream, he actually "barged-in" on an unrelated dream I was already having, took it over, if you like, and appeared to me as (in the dream) I opened the gates at the end of my garden. He was glowing with health, and grasped me lovingly with both hands, asking, "did I understand everything he had done?". Before I could answer, the dream faded, but the memory of it has stayed undimmed in the mind these past 19 years, while others I may have had of him have gone.

You will not have any doubts about a true visitation dream - when it comes, you will know!

Best wishes,

Alfred

thank you Alfred for pointing out that the nonphysical do barge into your dream; I know as I've had a few use sudden appearances which are unforgettable in getting my sleepy attention into direct lucidity and listening mode.

a friend of mine awoke me in a dream by banging on the door, then the lock busted and he walked right in. scared me in the dream as I didn't know who he was until he sat down and started explaining why he was there. he said I'd asked for assistance. I couldn't even remember that I had until later.

so I'm saying to Scooby, you are probably asking right now for assistance and building a momentum in that, and you therefore will make contact if you keep it up. I always say, persistence is one of my better qualities when it comes to this area and just keep asking for what you need and want, you will surely get it. yes, I'd say a few months is the norm. although with my husband, we had made an agreement before he died, that he would contact me as soon as possible, and in this case, since we had made this agreement, it was easier for him to get through to me and it only took a few weeks or so, but I'd say this was an exception to the general rule of 2 to 4 months.

also, when he arrived on several occassions he had an instructor with him, a guide, as he was new at communicating with this dimension also.

I want to add that to understand the communications you need to be prepared, and you need to know about these spiritual things, because if someone unknown about the afterlife, might be dream with a relative, but is not going to understand the message,

For example: if my father had a dream with my grandfather, and my grandfather show to him a car, my father will not understand, and will think that everything was a nice dream,
Because in my father concept, the afterlife there are no such material things (cars, houses, caws, ships etc. ..) then he NO would have thought that dream was a communication, but only a game of his own mind,
but since I know that in the afterlife, it may have material things that is a world of "ideoplastic" (ideoplastia in Spanish), it is a world of "thoughts", I could understand and trust in that dream.

Can you guys imagine living in a world of "thoughts"?, I think that is not a easy thing, they need time to adapt and learn to this new dimension, also we need to remember that the time is not the same here and there ;).

I recently reed the excellent "Five Stars"new books, about investigations and confirmations of the existence of the afterlife;

1) Induced After-death Communication, by Dr. Allan L. Botkin http://induced-adc.com/

2) Spirit Faces, by Mark Marcy http://www.spiritfaces.com/

3) Life in the Spirit World: The Mind Does Not Die, by Muriel Williams, Bill Williams, and from the afterlife the late Dr. Ian Currie

also:

4) Journey of Souls by Dr. Michael Newton, Ph.D

This is another excellent Link http://www.victorzammit.com/

best wishes

juan

Greetings,

Anything that 'thins the veil' between spirit and matter is important, IMO.

But Macy's photos look like my husband's (who has Parkinson's) when his
hand jerks while shooting. ::) I probably shouldn't say that-- sorry.

Newton is a great favorite with me. :D

Bets

betson wrote on Jun 18^th, 2008 at 9:24am:

Hello Betson

JAJJAJAJAJAJAJaaaa you are right my friend you make me laugh!!!!

I would like to know what you think about the photography of robert monroe and her wife? I' dont know...this photo of R. monroe.....it is fake to? in front of monroe daughter?... ;)

Newton is great!!... try Dr. Botkin to!!!

best

juan

Alfred wrote on Jun 17^th, 2008 at 11:14pm:

Hi Alfred!

Thanks for your words!

I would like to add regarding Myers, which in my view Myer is the best evidence that exists of the afterlife.

"The most convincing and itelligent proof of the reality of life after death.”

The 'Myers Cross-Correspondences' have now become classic evidence for survival and are most influential and persuasive in helping many people come to terms with life after death. After Myers died in 1901, more than a dozen different mediums in different countries began receiving a series of incomplete scripts through automatic writing signed by Frederick Myers, The messages from different mediums in different part of the world that on their own would mean nothing, but which when put together would make sense. He and his fellow leaders of the Society for Psychical Research felt that if such a thing could be accomplished it would have very high 'probative value' and be a high level of proof of continued existence.

The scripts were all about obscure classical subjects and did not make sense on their own. But when the mediums were told by Myers to contact a central address and the scripts were assembled, they fitted together like the pieces of a jig-saw. In all, more than three thousand scripts were transmitted over thirty years. Some of them were more than forty typed pages long. Together they fill 24 volumes and 12,000 pages. The investigation went on so long that some of the investigators, such as Professor Verrall, died during the course of it and began communicating themselves.
The mediums used by Myers and the others from the afterlife were not professors of the Classics. They were not highly educated and all messages transmitted were outside their learnt knowledge and experience. On one occasion one of the mediums, Mrs. Coombe-Tennant, was conducting a discussion using 'automatic writing' between the spirit entity of Professor Sidgwick and his living colleague G. W. Balfour on the 'mind-body relationship', 'epiphenomenalism' and 'interactionism'. She complained bitterly that she had no idea what they were talking about and lost her temper that she was asked to transmit such difficult things.
Myers did say it was extremely difficult to transmit his messages from the spirit world across to the mediums. He described as being like:
…standing behind a sheet of frosted glass which blurs sight and deadens sound dictating feebly to a reluctant and somewhat obtuse secretary…. (Cummins 1987)

Myers used Greek and Latin that very few people understand; he dictated to mediums everything in a academic language, thus proving that it was really him.

best

juan

Juan quote: …standing behind a sheet of frosted glass which blurs sight and deadens sound dictating feebly to a reluctant and somewhat obtuse secretary…. (Cummins 1987)
____

same thing happened with other channels of spirit communications. namely ACIM, known as A Course In Miracles. Helen Shucman was the channeler. Yeshua the spirit.

Helen was a psychologist who could not get along with another psychologist she had to work with for many years..their relationship was explosive. after many years of bickering they threw up their hands and prayed together for "a better way."

The Course in Miracles was the result of that prayer "where two or more are joined, there I am."

However, during the 7 years of writing the thing, Helen constantly argued with the voice as she wished to interpret it in her words, according to her psychology background. The voice then told her, if you insist on writing it your way, I will leave; I have my reasons for transcribing it exactly word for word. She finally agreed to listen to him and leave her own bias aside.

thanks for the Myers book review, I'm surprised more people didn't report such a work that even continued while the workers disappeared from Earth plane.

the human going here does indeed appear to have the ability to transmit information from beyond, however, they must lay aside their own ego resistence in order to be a pure channel.

Just a quick mention, for the sake of people trying to distinguish between a "normal" dream and a "visitation" dream. I'm not a world authority on the afterlife, obviously, but the dreams that I have had which I feel could have been visitations from friends or relatives were noticeably different. They reverberated with happiness and joy. They seemed to be clear messages that the deceased was fine, actually much much better than before they died. Their appearance was much healthier and happier.

When others mention a deceased person "surprising" them, I can relate to that. I think that is also a particular quality of these dreams....the feeling of being surprised, which lingers after awakening from the dream.

Surprise, the feeling of surprise, is uplifting, wouldn't you say? It automatically creates a quality of lightness, and has a "springiness" to it. It wouldn't "surprise" me at all that spirits might employ that method of getting our attention in a dream.

love, blink

hi Blink, the surprise factor seems related to getting the attention of the dreamer.

In retrieval situations, this is a main point, we must somehow get their attention. I think once the attention is gotten, an opening in the mind occurs, through that factor, so that the retrievee is then able to sense the presence of nonphysical guides who have been there all the time, but needed a retriever who is still physical to get their attention.

its something I'm working on to explain. :)

Juan, you reminded me of the car. The car my foster father attained. after his transition, he appeared in my mother's dream driving a rather old jalopy, a convertible and asked her to come outside her body and go for a ride. my mother has had a few contacts during her life with those passed on.

I know it's hard to conceive we would want cars on the other side even, but it must have been a lifelong dream of his, that was fulfilled as nothing is impossible when it comes to desires we hold for a long time. desires are very creative also, here or there.

in reflection, certain levels are similar to Earth. my sister loved horses and after she passed on, she came back to me in waking consciousness and told me she was taking care of abused horses, loving them. I thought that was a great service to life.

Hello Friends!

I find "very informative" this part of the book "BEYOND HUMAN PERSONALITY" of F. W. H. Myers through the medium GERALDINE CUMMINS in April, 1935

Myer from the afterlife, uses the example of a woman to explain the transfer and adaptation of a person in the afterlife, also like bruce moen, Myers call the afterlife as " diferents planes of consciousness" (7 planes o leves of consciousness).

this is the link: http://www.trans4mind.com/spiritual/cummins/cummins2.html#Immediate

"...............Let us take as an example the soul of a wife and a mother whom we will call Margery Fitzgerald. Let us break through the mystery of death and follow her into the next world. She has been a devoted mother, and as a wife she has worked hard and unselfishly for her husband. Among the members of her family she is the first to make the crossing of death. There follows a period of rest and of dream in Hades(?), the intermediate world which I have previously described.

In time Margery emerges from her chrysalis state and becomes aware of her new existence and of her increased potentialities for living and loving. At a certain point in the journey she finds herself suspended in what might be described as "an air of matter." All around her stretches immensity of space. It appears to her perceptions as being pale and almost transparent. But Margery is not frightened; she is sensible of an extraordinary exhilaration, of an increased mental vigour, and, for the first time in her history, she feels like a bird floating happily, as it were, on the wind, drifting peacefully within the Unknown. After a while thoughts of those near and dear to her, who have already made the crossing of death, fill her mind; she desires their presence, and her urgent thought sounds like a voice through this apparently soundless world.

Swiftly they appear; for they have loved her dearly, and so are in tune with her mind and may hear its thoughts if directed towards them. She is still a very young soul, though she was sixty when she died. They take her to a radiant country, in beauty, as poetic as a picture by Titian. For these friends of Margery were advanced souls and consequently, when freed from the slavery of the physical body, were able to create out of their fine, sensitive imaginations surroundings that appeared quite material in character, yet were in every respect the creation of their mind and inspiring spirit. They explain to Margery that this world beyond death, which at first seemed empty space, actually consists of electrons differing only in their fineness or increased vibratory quality from those known to earthly scientists. These very subtle units are extremely plastic and, therefore, can be moulded by mind and will. In other words on earth matter cannot, as a rule, be altered by the power of thought acting directly upon it. But human beings, in the After-death, control substance through their freed&emdash(?);and therefore subtilized&emdash (?);imaginations..............."

Also Myers says,....

....Love and Marriage

On leaving the Third level of consciousness we assume a subtle body which, in beauty and in shape, no longer resembles the physical body. When, indeed, the intelligence proceeds on its journey to Eidos it makes a definite break with the material world; and few who have passed that way return to speak to men.

But, in the world after death which I have called the sphere of Terrene Imagination," men are the possessors of bodies which reproduce in shape and in general appearance the discarded physical form, though they are clothed in an ethereal substance which vibrates with a greater intensity.

In this sphere there is an absence of that strenuous struggle which leads to creative imagining&emdash;creative effort. Women do not bear children though the illusion of sexual passion may be experienced as long as it is the soul's desire. The woman possesses an etheric body so framed that it can serve her as the material shape served her various purposes, wishes and appetites on earth.

........When I was on earth uneducated men and women frequently contended that it was impossible that human beings survived death because space could not contain the innumerable army of the dead. This very crude argument was never put forward by any intelligent men possessed of astronomical knowledge however slight and, therefore, dimly aware of the vastness of space. But apart from the human astronomical view of the universe, the whole conception of eternity is at fault when it is based merely on our perception of material surroundings. It should be founded, as I have said, on the idea of motion. A discarnate being is invisible to the human eye because the etheric body or vehicle of expression is vibrating at a more rapid rate than the physical body. When the soul passes to higher levels of consciousness, its form, or outward expression of itself, becomes more and more ethereal. That is to say, it is vibrating with greater rapidity and with a far greater intensity. Numberless discarnate beings vibrate about you and within you, yet they are not of you, and in no sense make what one might describe as "contact" with either your mind or your physical body. When we seek to communicate with men we pass on to a different level of consciousness and can only do so by slowing down our processes of thought.....

incredible since 1935 Myers was explaining the consistency of the afterlife, and humanity is not aware of this ;)

best

juan

Hallo Juan,

It is good to bring Myers' work back in view again - as you say, most today are not aware of so much work that was done so carefully by dedicated researches so long ago, and they deserve to be recognised for their pioneering work. Myers was the leading light among the founding group of the British SPR, which included also Sidgewick, Gurney and Jackson. A massive tome called "Human Personality and its Survival of Bodily Death" came out of their collaborative efforts.

I suppose the main difference between what we might term the modern researchers into the Afterlife (like Bruce Moen, Robert Monroe, etc), and these earlier pioneers, is that the latter relied on mediums for their data, whereas the emphasis now (as on this site, and in the works of Bruce Moen, Monroe et.al.) is on ordinary, non-mediumistic people having their own direct and personal experiences of the Afterlife. Many traditional psychical researchers, however, even now do still use mediums for their work, and such studies are still written up in the SPR's and other journals.

Best wishes,

Alfred

Hi Alfred, Blink, laffingrain:

I find this quote from the book of EDWARD C. RANDALL, Frontiers of the Afterlife, about the creative power of the mind (thoughts) in the afterlife.

"...............The question of light in the afterlife has always interested me, and it is one of the subjects upon which I have sought information. I speak the late Dr. Hossack, for the reason that he has given me the most satisfactory explanation of any other spirit. This was my question to him:

"What is the character of your light, and how does it differ from sunlight?"

The answer:
"The light we have is obtained from the action of our minds on the atmosphere. We think light, and there is light. That is why people who come over in evil condition are in the dark; their minds are not competent to produce light enough for them to see.

"There is greater intensity of light as we go up through the spheres, which comes from the blending of the more spiritual minds.

"Our life is merely the condition of mind which each one has. We create images in thought, and have the reality before us, just as tangible as your houses and buildings are to you. You do not have any conception of the great power and force there is, or may be, in thought. It dominates all conditions and makes us what we are. One who realizes this may control his destiny.

"Thought is a fluid, which becomes substance to us when once it is formed into an expression. It is a vibrating, living thing, and should be recognized as such and controlled accordingly."……………………." ;)

Best

Juan

Many thanks, Juan!

You are sharing wonderful insights, and not just when you are quoting others !

Bets

Yes, I second that, thanks Juan! love, blink

chorusing in with the gals here Juan..thanks. makes sense. I think about this thing called Light also. I got the notion it is intelligent. and we as humans are encapsulated within it, in a spatial sense as we might perceive it within image. yet also I turn that thought around and see the light also in my flesh body, as I go within, I image myself as a tiny spark of light circulating in my blood stream, thinking wow, look what spirit has done...made itself into bodies.

not to speak of many retrieval examples where we send them into the light.

Hi Juan!

Just to say thanks for the info and links you gave earlier. I ordered Botkin's book, and it came today. I am finding it very interesting reading! There does seem to be some sign of a softening of the prevailing ultra-materialistic view among professional medics and some scientific circles, however slight. There are, though, still plenty of the hardened cynics about - the James Randi's and Richard Dawkins's etc. Dawkins deserves respect as an accomplished scientific writer and thinker, but seems unable, or unwilling, to entertain any notion of other realities, or other ways of being. And yet a true scientist should always be open to possibilities outside the existing orthodoxy - that's how all progress to date has been made, isn't it?

Best wishes,

Alfred

Einstein was a scientist and yet he was openminded philosopher too, as he coined the phrase "imagination is more important than knowledge."

isn't that a funny thing to say from a scientist? so I suppose you have all degree of scientist. I think a scientist by definition is interested only in gathering info by the five sense; that would exclude the 6th sense or what Bruce and TMI call nonphysical senses.

love, alysia

When you look a bit more deeply Alysia almost all of the great creative geniuses down the centuries seem to have had a strongly spiritual dimension - even those like Newton that have since been placed on a pedestal by the pure rationalists. (the logical positivists)

No surprise really, since all creativity seems clearly to come from the heart or intuitive side. Intellect is essentially sterile in creative terms, it's able only to weigh between already knowns (or at least concepts deemed to equate to these) using various forms of logic - the latter also intellectually derived and not necessarily based in any true reality.

Hi Alfred. I guess there's a bit of a 'never the two shall meet' aspect about the exchange between the cynics and those that experience otherwise.

One of the problems inherent in the debate about whether we and the reality we find ourselves in are more than just interacting physical objects seems to be to do with the nature of the underlying quantum reality - which seems to cause the physical to arise essentially out of an interplay between mind/intention and energy. (Einstein got as far as figuring out that matter and energy were interchangeable, more recent quantum physics is now demonstrating the primacy of mind as the creator - for an easy intro see stuff like The Field, or What the Bleep Do We Know, writings by Fritjof Capra or Gary Zukav, or even more recently 'Life After Death' by Depak Chopra)

What you don't believe simply does not seem to happen, at least not the sort of extraneous phenomena required for proof in the sort of experiments conceived to demonstrate the ability of mind to influence outcomes. Even if it does happen it's rarely very repeatable. Yet we all experience this sort of thing in a practical way in life with the way that synchronicities seem to come big time into our lives once we open to the fact that they can and do occur.

I have to say that I struggle with the rationalist/logical positivist/cynical viewpoint. Not because it's not a possibility (although my own experience strongly suggests otherwise), but because the lobby supporting that view seems (despite protestations that they do not) to start from the position that it's true. (e.g. there is no God, or no metaphysical reality) They seem to have moved from this being simply a starting position until otherwise is proven to its becoming an article of faith for them - in fact the dogma of modern academic thought.

The problem with this is of course that given the creative nature of mind the cosmos will behave accordingly for such a person. Not to mention that we always perceive in accordance with our preconceptions anyway - we can't help but not admit data that conflicts with our beliefs.

It's like the cosmos 100% respects free will. But the result is that to see beyond our reality tunnel we have to drop our belief that its all there is. It's like we each go about our lives enclosed by this thought/belief bubble, this mini reality that forms around us in accordance with our preconceptions. The result seems to be that those that don't believe in the metaphysical are never forced to confront it, and so can sail on unperturbed in the certainty that their view of reality of the only one.

They are confronted every day with what they believe in, but that's rationalised as objectively existing, as having been there anyway. Nothing new is permitted into their reality bubble. The alternative seems to be the possibility that if we manage to drop our beliefs we can out of the blue find our lives filled with all sorts of weirdness that doesn't even remotely fit with what's 'supposed' to be happening.

Chapel Perilous it's been called by Robert Anton Wilson...

all of the great creative geniuses down the centuries seem to have had a strongly spiritual dimension -
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I think we will have in the future a merge of religion/science/spirituality...too bad I'll be dead..lol
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all creativity seems clearly to come from the heart or intuitive side. Intellect is essentially sterile
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what I hear u saying is intellect is not based in true reality..therefore only living an experience, gaining the essence from that, then sifting it thru the intellect, it comes out the other side, to intuitive expression, and I call this balance.
I agree intellect is very dry and sterile which I guess intellect is surface gliding in a way. which is why I am a proponent of hemisync to get both sides of the brain/mind active in balance. balance would happen anyway, but tools like hemisync are an aide to that process.
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mind/intention and energy.
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I mainly zero in on the mind's intention Ian. As we talk about intention a lot here (lol, last 8 yrs to be precise) I have developed a talent to pick up on a poster's intentions by learning of the intention setting business. as well we speak of the intention to do a retrieval or other self type exploration. Bruce gives us the example of the little finger bending intention setting mechanism.
I call that eye of the storm, that quiet place just before action starts, where the decision is made, to do whatever, here or there. basically agreeing with you, I'm just using my own words. from your script I found your intentions here to be pure. I hope u don't think I'm flattering you again, because, frankly, I'm not doing that. my intentions here are pure also. It's pure social I do here these days, but friends is all that counts to me, not that intellect stuff, but I like that too if it's on the menu. :) I think pure intellect expressed wherever that's done, is mainly ego derived intentions, but rather unconscious intentions. as I see it, from ACIM we can view a definition of the ego, as that which must divide, measure, dissect, quarter, rationalize, judge, all this, not from knowledge, but through filtering through logical process and chucking out the result...lol, to me this is like barfing. haha!
sometimes I've barfed here I admit. the intuitive side of things, as I see it does not do those things like measure and divide and categorize, but instead involves a different type of expression where it tunes into the oneness of all functioning parts. PUL is sticky, ok? lol. no matter how intellectual I try not to be, in a forum, that's what happens in appearance. it's a great place to develop extra sensory perception as surely, you can't judge a book by it's cover, right? at least this would be ideal.
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What you don't believe simply does not seem to happen
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exactly.
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Yet we all experience this sort of thing in a practical way in life with the way that synchronicities seem to come big time into our lives once we open to the fact that they can and do occur
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about synchronicities. we can return to intentional setting for a look at how this happens. intentional setting has to do with (I learned this in ACIM) making a decision. what is it that makes the decision?
the mind of course. I find making a decision is harder than we think it should be. for most of us.
it is a state of fixated nonduality processing and in most cases, not reversible in it's effects.
What makes us surprised about these synchronicities, is the fact we can easily forget having made a decision. Life just seems to happen with these synchronicities evident.
yet synchronicities can be played with this way..to lend a sense of wonder to life, mostly lacking in the pure intellect surfer. the religious part of me, says this: your way will be made smooth, for these that love god with all their heart and soul and mind. (can u believe I have to listen to this stuff all the time? ;D I call this aspect DP, as you know.
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I have to say that I struggle with the rationalist/logical positivist/cynical viewpoint.
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I too struggle, although I appear not to talk of inner struggle as I've adapted a one-pointed nondual perspective; what u have perceived correctly as true aim. if u think this is ego talking, it's not exactly that, but more of what I call my intentions here manifesting, here or there and everywhere. the one pointedness comes from viewing what is real, and what just alludes to what is real. we lie (unconsciously) to ourselves in a duality world, and are unable to find God while we are denying God at the same time.
It's what is focused on which manifests as synchronicities. our minds are like camera lens that focus in on what is appearing as "outside" us, when really, there is nothing out there that is real. Notwithstanding evidence of PUL. lack of loving expressions implies a belief in scarcity. A belief in scarcity implies it is based on nothing, therefore it's an illusion, or not real, or a lie, an untruth, but the ego is great at manufacturing it's own confusion. we all deal with dogma whether in politics, religion or any pathway whatsoever. it might be described as playing in our s-h-i-t. lol. sorry. it's a part of ELS although we never received an instruction bundle upon incarnation. the best we can do is all that's expected. I like your thoughtfulness.
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The problem with this is of course that given the creative nature of mind the cosmos will behave accordingly for such a person. Not to mention that we always perceive in accordance with our preconceptions anyway - we can't help but not admit data that conflicts with our beliefs.
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what I hear u say is you are with an open mind and do wish to be growing and so you can't help but consider another's viewpoint, despite it makes u struggle even more, as it introduces conflict to do this. what u might do is consider this is a natural course, that you are in a state of duality and so you must consider both sides of any question in order to make a decision what is true, but only true for you, while you allow it to be true for other, as everyone is where they are supposed to be, if you regard life as a temporary undertaking for learning purposes. call it human evolvement, or spiritual growth, although it moves slowly, crawls actually, you are developing, and must see all as developing the same as you, in order to reduce that feeling of struggling and move into the synchronicities of the pleasant variety. What I gained from Bruce's books specifically, was to consider opposing, possessed belief systems as personages within my mental. I would invite them to the table and the 3 of us would begin a verbal exchange. I would remain in the back as observer position or a mediator. I would ask first one belief system (yes, it's a whole system of connected thoughts) what is your purpose here? the system would speak back. It would say something like "I am here at your service, and in your employ as you asked me to be here." example: Murphy's law I believed in. (everything that can go wrong, alas, does)
so then, I would turn to the opposing belief and ask "is this true?" Naturally, opposing belief structure, the new kid on the block would say nay, tis untrue. It's only true if you continue to believe it's true.

then I would once more speak to belief system number one to say, I am laying you off work, but I want you to know I appreciate your service to me, I understand you have served me well.
if this exercise is done properly, perhaps repeated a few times, belief system two becomes the manifested reality, and every thing that could go wrong no longer is seen to be true or outpictured in physical reality.
for me, usually belief system one fades off like a dawning sunrise displaces shadows. pretty naturally without a lot of struggle. I think the irony in this method is first seeing belief system one as real before you can make it unreal.
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It's like the cosmos 100% respects free will.
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u said a mouthful. lol. this mouthful is what Bruce used to say to me here, now I know what he meant. the cosmos is another word what I call God. the cosmos to me, is just a bunch of huge star beings, most romantic, but I don't know who hung them. unless it was god. free will is another way of saying we have choices here. u can listen to the heart or we can listen to what is a logical view, known as collective rumblings, I call it gossiping..if everyone believes it, then it must be true, right? wrong.
looking at life becomes like being enticed into buying a gossip rag looking for the truth, the more sensational the better. it's ego again. the problem with our struggle here, is most folks are not able to differentiate what is ego and what is heart talk. if we can see our oneness, our effect upon one another more clearly, we tend to relax our struggle to understand, we are all creating this world within our free will and have the capacity undo our errors, with the same power of decision which made the outpicturing of chaos.
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But the result is that to see beyond our reality tunnel we have to drop our belief that its all there is.
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that's why talking to ourself helps, described above.
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It's like we each go about our lives enclosed by this thought/belief bubble, this mini reality that forms around us in accordance with our preconceptions. The result seems to be that those that don't believe in the metaphysical are never forced to confront it, and so can sail on unperturbed in the certainty that their view of reality of the only one.
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it's my belief forcing anyone to believe anything is not a working principle of God. In the same way God did not force us to live on ELS. It never was a sentence imposed. That's why I say God did not create this world. We did. In unison. That is not to say it is a mistake. but it is to say it was a decision to individualize from what was one, into the many..to get experiences within matter.
people who are dogmatic in their approach are locked into a belief system. they are in jail of their own making. The approach to them is not to order them to get out of jail at gunpoint, but simply hand them the key and say it's your choice. we are not to meddle in another's belief system, that is what I learned, that it's all about taking care of my own garden. PUL is practicing noncoercive techniques and I know u do this, or know how, and then u will see more synchronicities.
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They are confronted every day with what they believe in, but that's rationalised as objectively existing
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we also believe a chair or table objectively exists. but consider that within science, they are saying the chair does not have existence, that under the microscope it is a thing of molecules vibrating with space inbetween each molecule, so what is it? it certainly appears as solid. so then we see it is making an appearance. when I'm dead then and vibrating at a higher frequency will the chair still be useful to me, and if I can create with my mind another chair after I'm dead, poof, we must be quite creative on the other side to do this with the mind..and so we created this whole world as well with our minds in unison, again, it appears the power lies in our unison creative abilities. u appear to be struggling with changing what's out there, rather than changing your own viewpoint about what's out there, and u notice this in others as well.
What we do here is to try to change another, over to our way of looking at it. Instead you can try another approach to that. Approach (I'm seeing you in your work) other, from a sharing station rather than, "you don't, you can't, you aren't" (negatives) approach, I am, you are, we are, we can, (positive) people respond better to possibilities presented for change, when the speaker is saying this strength is inside them, because you can see it is in them, when you believe in the Oneness factor of all life.

about this Oneness..it means we are effecting each other constantly, the slightest gesture, word, thought about another effects their reality if we believe it does. from my experience, my mere thought about them is effecting them on levels unseen at first, evidence begins to show up, how I effect them. that's why it's so important to think positive thoughts about another..as if you negative on them, it only increases their boxed in feeling and habitual ways of doing things which we don't like to observe, but we are a part of that which they are creating also. so we learn PUL and to practice instant forgiveness as we slide in on the shift in consciousness, sometimes on our heads..lol.
It is pleasant to exchange thoughts with you Ian.
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as having been there anyway. Nothing new is permitted into their reality bubble
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u are expressing a mild impatience right now. the thing about living in the unreality of linear time is days, weeks, months, maybe years can crawl by, and the ego will say, hmmm, this is all pointless as I see no results of my good intentions manifesting..(maybe some cuss words thrown in) but it's still just impatience, which is type of force which prevents what we want to manifest...
patience is the child of faith, and must mature within experience.
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.The alternative seems to be the possibility that if we manage to drop our beliefs we can out of the blue find our lives filled with all sorts of weirdness that doesn't even remotely fit with what's 'supposed' to be happening.
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U know, I think I know what you're talking about..Ian, my life too has been incredibly weird. I have been known to start laughing hysterically outloud at some things that has happened. (of course, not in public, I try to act normal) :) the weirdness is a sign you are working it. you are working your belief systems, to root out the conflicting ones and u r anxious to move forward.
getting used to the discomfort to see all this weirdness around and about you means you are awakening to priorities, and this is self realization, this is the awakening you have asked for. Bruce discusses some belief system crashes he underwent. I wasn't sure what he was talking about, to use the word crash, it seemed rather dramatic word. Now I have come after him in my experience getting, and I know exactly why he felt so crazy, as you will feel quite nuts when you start to wake up that this entire world is not real, we are all going along making it up as best we can, forgetting how we need each other to really do anything significant. and we are back to false perception, true perception, (ACIM) of the ego's holdings.
then choosing true perception.
perception however, true perception is still not knowledge. it is not wisdom either.
wisdom can only come from living lives, as few as possible, but people cannot accept we choose our lives to graduate ELS. Our free will lies in the choices we make between listening to ego, which divides truth, or listening to Spirit (god) which will speak 2nd. the ego speaks first.
I see this as the planet of Fear. Fear is false evidence appearing as real.

I like the intro to ACIM: quote: Free will does not mean you can establish the curriculum; it means only that you can elect to take what you want in a given time (lifetimes)...

Nothing real can be threatened
Nothing unreal exists..

Herein lies the peace of God

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Chapel Perilous it's been called by Robert Anton Wilson...
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I'm not familiar with Chapel Perilous, but agree our going home is fraught with "seeming" perils. what the bleep? smile.
hey y'all, that print moving across the page is called a marquee in the edit field. it's cracking me up this website provides us that little option for fun...

:) Thank you for a well considered reply Alysia - it's good to see this stuff expressed in more practical terms than my fairly enigmatic way of putting it.

This whole business of mind creating and perceiving in accordance with it's preconceptions is right at the centre of topic after topic - including those elsewhere on the board right now on death, TV channels, OOB Dude's experience and lots more besides.

We can't seem to help adopting a self centred (as in what we perceive to be self in life) vantage point when we try to make sense of it all, but if we take into account all the differing dimensions of experience it's possibly hard to say much more than that we're each this point of awareness that seems to originate from God/source. And that the apparent separation of this point from Source with experience proves more and more a matter of perception than of reality.

We seem to come into life having taken up a set of karmic influences like a suit of clothes, and having forgotten most of our prior lives. We start out thinking we're located in C1, but with time may develop the ability to flit between all sorts of realities both relative and not. Including moving around in time. Then with more experience it starts to become clear that these realities probably don't have any objective/independent existence, are only creations of mind, and are probably not even wholly shared per se - they represent only prior or evolving beliefs we hold, and anyway are really only the result of the interplay of mind/intention and energy to create form or whatever it is we perceive.

Then eventually we discover that selfhood is also a delusion, that there's all sorts of states of consciousness that allow our awareness to move into other selves, into collectives, into non relative selfless states and so on. That the mind stuff we create in life is largely disposable.

I can't speak for you guys, but I find myself left with the strong suspicion that the teachings that only the absolute/this point of awareness is real, that absolutely everything else we experience whether in C1, or the afterlife, or any other mind made reality is only the output of a novice mind lost in a self made maze and trying to get it's functioning and consequently it's creative tendencies under control.

Put another way - I can't help feeling that if we could just get our minds under control and clear of all the delusional but subconscious garbage we've picked up over lives upon lives that as ACIM says (Buddhist, Vedantic and lots of other systems of thought too) it'd all just blink out in an instant.

It's such a catch 22 issue. Having created a set of reality tunnels we can't but keep on experiencing these. Leading to further extension of beliefs, and further and more concrete seeming realities. It's hard to tell whether all of this has any purpose in the great scheme of things, although it's hard to think that it does not at some level.

Even if it's of importance I guess our task has surely got to be to step back from all of this, to return to source.

This in a way is what life or the spiritual path is about. To be of in this world, but not of it. We can't just decide to 'blink out' , at least not without a lot of work to collapse most of our belief systems - but there's lots we can do in choosing how we live that can lighten the grip of the prevailing reality on us. This is almost always counter intuitive, because essentially what we are doing is trying to live the rules of a greater reality in a cosmos created by an aspect of mind that thinks largely in terms of rule of the fittest.

The further we get down the path, the harder it becomes. It's not hard to see how living a life as a rapacious robber or tycoon type sucks us deeper into suffering, or even how the use of religion for personal gain is wrong too. But as we progress into more ethereal territory the traps become subtler and subtler. Stuff like competing to be holier and more pious than others. To hold 'better' views than others on the nature of reality. Ultimately it can be as simple as becoming addicted to seeking intellectual answers to the never ending stream of 'spiritual' questions the intellect keeps on throwing up, when ultimately it entails replacing all conceptual or intellectual motivations and striving with just 'being'.

With resting in the Tao, or in flow.

This is perhaps the reason there's so much paradox associated with the spiritual. We have to care a lot about how we live, or we otherwise blunder into life situations that suck us deeper into suffering and the behaviours that cause it - deeper into the mire.

But we can't care too much about it, or get hung up about it (in respect of either our own behaviour, or that of others), or that too will suck us into a closing down of our view which also means that we will blunder deeper into worldliness and suffering. So we have at the same time to stay light, flexible and open in our approach, to only skim the surface of life.

Caring but not caring. This is the eye of the needle J spoke of....

kthorse wrote on Jun 13^th, 2008 at 8:31am:

The quiter you are the more you can hear.

The key to every thing kthorse is the heart, it is timeless, never restrained by distance or even the seperation which has caused such a wirlwind in you.

If you want assurance of your daughers exsistance look at the common tree and how it breathes in the wind, unfocus your eyes and see the truth as is pulses with life.

..
Do normal small things and do them well with 100% of your self with most perfect intention, if you wish to continue giving her love then it will be impossible if when this person breaths out and makes good wishes they will not be felt and used as maybe required.

The most valueable aspect as I see it is that you show great faith now and become a usefull energy piliar and source.

Every thought and every breath you take count, turn your dispair which orginated in love back into claim surrounding warmth.

I thank you for your honest post.

bud

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